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View Full Version : Riddle me this..



HarverdGrad
12-03-2014, 08:26 AM
Hello all,

Back in Late September, I signed up for the $649 upgrade offer to Lightwave 11.5 that included Octane. The price was $695 total ($200 more for Octane)
About 62 days later, LW2015 was for sale.
I just spent another $495 for the LW 2015 Upgrade because Octane supports FiberFX and I imagine enhancements for the 11.x will pretty much stop.

Total cost in the past 3 months: $1190

I feel I was duped.
Newtek's response was they offer a free upgrade period to LW2015 for people who recently purchase Lightwave, but anyone who upgrades via "any Bundled offer" is disqualified.

So what I learned from this is Newtek released an upgrade deal 2 months before releasing LW2015. This upgrade deal was more expensive than the stand alone upgrade price ($695 vs $495) because it was bundled with Octane. They did all this knowing that when LW2015 came out, these same users would have to upgrade.

They responded that I wasn't under any obligation to upgrade to 2015, but my thought is- hey, I paid for the latest version (or so I thought)- and now that bug fixes are going to pretty much stop for 11.x, of course I'll need to upgrade to stay up to date with Octane.

Sh*tty Marketing Practices, or am I just being whiny?

..on a side note, what I'm realizing is that they are charging real dollars now, and since they are moving to a yearly subscription (you know they will)- C4D Prime with $295 MSA, and some Particle Plugins suddenly become a much more viable route.

tcoursey
12-03-2014, 08:58 AM
I get it...that's a tough one. I think it's crappy that happened to you and probably others I'm sure. They may or may not have known when 2015 was going to be released (an actual day or short time frame) but you got to think they were trying their best to get it out before Christmas/NewYear as the release title suggests. I think a fair 90 days retroactive upgrade period would be sufficent for something like this and you would have been well within that timeframe. I feel for ya. I wonder if larger studios would get any "love" in this situation... I mean they may not have done the bundle upgrade, prob didn't make sense for them. But still some situation where something similar happened, you know they would get some love.

I'd give them another shot and see if another rep/higher level person could give you some love. Take care.

HarverdGrad
12-03-2014, 09:12 AM
I get it...that's a tough one. I think it's crappy that happened to you and probably others I'm sure. They may or may not have known when 2015 was going to be released (an actual day or short time frame) but you got to think they were trying their best to get it out before Christmas/NewYear as the release title suggests. I think a fair 90 days retroactive upgrade period would be sufficent for something like this and you would have been well within that timeframe. I feel for ya. I wonder if larger studios would get any "love" in this situation... I mean they may not have done the bundle upgrade, prob didn't make sense for them. But still some situation where something similar happened, you know they would get some love.

I'd give them another shot and see if another rep/higher level person could give you some love. Take care.

Thanks for the response.. they were pretty firm in their response.

What's frustrating is I feel they absolutely were aware of the release date (even back in late September), due to all the silence from them in the forums. Now they are back (Lino etc.)- so it smells fishy.
What they really did was push licenses of Octane (IMO), since the stand alone Octane Version + LW License costs ~$479 (plus the added $$$ to $695). It was a short term gain for the user, and a HUGE gain for Newtek.

Skonk
12-03-2014, 09:16 AM
Seems pretty off yeh.

It wouldn't be so bad if they continued to release bug fixes for the "old" version, for lets say at least 12 months from the point that version stopped being sold.

So from the day 2015 was released, continue to support 11 with minor patches to fix problems for a year.

tcoursey
12-03-2014, 09:18 AM
Thanks for the response.. they were pretty firm in their response.

What's frustrating is I feel they absolutely were aware of the release date (even back in late September), due to all the silence from them in the forums. Now they are back (Lino etc.)- so it smells fishy.
What they really did was push licenses of Octane (IMO), since the stand alone Octane Version + LW License costs ~$479 (plus the added $$$ to $695). It was a short term gain for the user, and a HUGE gain for Newtek.

And most certainly a potential loss in the long term. More things like this happen, word gets around and forget new comers coming to LW. There are more than ample options for artists today. If I were starting from scratch I would have gone to Modo personally. There are a couple of reasons I have not done so. 1. LWCAD, ha, a 3rd party plugin has kept me with a group that should have implemented something like it a long time ago, especially since they tout ArchViz as a strong point for them. 2. Surfacing and Rendering in LW is so easy.

Modo has come a long way with a ground level development. It's only a matter of time for many in these forums it seems if LW3DG doesn't get their act together and communicate with their user base more (point for you and your early upgrade) have some real love come to Modeler in THE NEXT RELEASE, not future, ground work being done excuses etc...

Will see what happens in coming months....

hrgiger
12-03-2014, 09:48 AM
Thanks for the response.. they were pretty firm in their response.

What's frustrating is I feel they absolutely were aware of the release date (even back in late September), due to all the silence from them in the forums. Now they are back (Lino etc.)- so it smells fishy.
What they really did was push licenses of Octane (IMO), since the stand alone Octane Version + LW License costs ~$479 (plus the added $$$ to $695). It was a short term gain for the user, and a HUGE gain for Newtek.

Well concerning the silence, thats pretty much been a constant since they released LW11 three plus years ago. And they are usually only active on the forums right after a new release so that doesnt seem unusual to me.

Yeah its unfortunate timing but I suppose since there are no set regular releases that everyone takes a chance when they upgrade that a new release might be around the corner. It seems even more unfair when it happens to you. I think NT should come up with a set amount of time before a release that is eligible for a free upgrade and stick to it.

RebelHill
12-03-2014, 09:58 AM
Well the upgrade price for LW 11 (that being ofc the previous price) was $695... To buy octane separately along with the LW plugin is around $540, and now the upgrade to 2015 is $495... So had you bought all separately (had there never been any bundle offer)... You'd have paid $1730.

Ok, so you could've skipped the V11 upgrade really, given the time frame... bought only the 2015 upgrade, plus octane solo... that'd still add up to $1035

So not a huge loss at the better end, and a significant saving at the lesser.

Snosrap
12-03-2014, 11:07 AM
So it was the bundle that made ineligable for a free upgrade to 2015 or a time limit? NT has always been pretty fair about the free upgrades to a new release after a purchase of an older version.

HarverdGrad
12-03-2014, 11:33 AM
So it was the bundle that made ineligable for a free upgrade to 2015 or a time limit? NT has always been pretty fair about the free upgrades to a new release after a purchase of an older version.

Here's a partial of what Customer Support Rep wrote:

"We do have in place grace-periods for upgrades, and we do have one in place now as well. But I am sorry to say that your purchase is outside the grace-period, and since you also purchased a bundle - that would be a disqualify-er as well as we don't combine promotions or 'benefits'"

My take on it is that the Sale NewTek had, wasn't much of a sale at all. I can't see the future- so I didn't know the release was just around the corner. I came into it knowing 11.x had been around for a while, but I was thinking there was at least one more point release. I also thought this was probably a promotion coordinated by Octane to push sales.

NewTek DID know the release timeframe for LW2015, and had their so called "Sale"- knowing anyone jumping into it would hit a brick wall in terms of bug fixing in 11.x & would most likely have to upgrade shortly there after especially since Octane is going to focus on LW2015.

The Octane Bundle promotion wasn't around for months- it was around for just a couple of weeks as best as I can remember. Why have the promotion at the very, very end of the 11.x life cycle(?) You can rationalize that dollar for dollar- adding up everything breaks about even, but the issue I have is that the Promotion was spun as getting Octane for practically nothing.

I can't see the logic to it at all. I must not have the same thought process as everyone, or I have tunnel vision in my thinking.

Snosrap
12-03-2014, 05:26 PM
You know I think I would try to contact someone other than a cust ser rep. Go up the chain and see what happens.

hrgiger
12-03-2014, 05:44 PM
Well, the Octane promotion was just that, a chance to get Octane in a bundle deal and that's what you were buying. LW3DG has been running specials on and off through the year so it probably has little to do with when the next version of LW was due out and I can't imagine that they are scamming to trick a handful of people to buy a bundle just so they can charge them again in a few months. Is there any reason to think that Octane won't continue to work within LW 11? I'm not saying your wrong in feeling duped, but I'm just trying to play devils advocate a bit as I do think you do have to consider, as you said, that you knew LW 11 had been around for a while and nobody ever seems to know when LW will release a new version so there's always a chance this will happen. I'd be pissed if I upgraded and then found out I missed a free upgrade by only a week or a month, but Newtek has to draw the line somewhere and some people are just going to fall outside of that.

jwiede
12-03-2014, 06:54 PM
You know I think I would try to contact someone other than a cust ser rep. Go up the chain and see what happens.

Agreed. Esp. given the "hints" (LW3DG reps posting pics showing 11.7 etc) dropped suggesting that 11.x wasn't at end-of-life, for LW3DG to deliberately exclude these bundle customers from the grace period feels like unfair treatment.

robpowers3d
12-04-2014, 12:49 PM
We do currently have a 30 day purchase guarantee which is eligible for a free upgrade to the most current version and that applies to all customers except those who are part of any charter or post charter group.

The charter and post charter group memberships require the purchase of every paid version and that requirement was always clearly stated when the price-lock for 5 future versions was promised to those two groups. For any who are a member of the charter and post-charter groups there has been a very long window to upgrade to LightWave 11 prior to the release of LightWave 2015 and it is only those who have waited until the very end of a three year cycle that would have an issue. In fairness, we warned in our original communications about waiting until the end of a cycle to upgrade if you are a charter / post charter member to hopefully help folks avoid any frustration because of the built-in requirement to purchase every paid upgrade.

Ultimately those price-lock deals make sense to those who plan on upgrading to every version fairly soon after it is released and they ensure that the upgrade pricing will never go higher. For all regular customers that do not benefit from that price lock the standard 30 day purchase guarantee applies.


Well concerning the silence, thats pretty much been a constant since they released LW11 three plus years ago. And they are usually only active on the forums right after a new release so that doesnt seem unusual to me.

Yeah its unfortunate timing but I suppose since there are no set regular releases that everyone takes a chance when they upgrade that a new release might be around the corner. It seems even more unfair when it happens to you. I think NT should come up with a set amount of time before a release that is eligible for a free upgrade and stick to it.

robpowers3d
12-04-2014, 12:58 PM
I'm sorry for the confusion on this. This is not fully accurate. I have contacted our customer support to remove any confusion on this. If you have purchased a bundle version of LightWave in the prior 30 days before a release you would qualify for the automatic update to the most recent release. It is only those affected by the special price locks of the charter and post charter groups that would not be eligible because their deals specify the need to purchase every paid upgrade as I stated in the prior response.


Here's a partial of what Customer Support Rep wrote:

"We do have in place grace-periods for upgrades, and we do have one in place now as well. But I am sorry to say that your purchase is outside the grace-period, and since you also purchased a bundle - that would be a disqualify-er as well as we don't combine promotions or 'benefits'"

My take on it is that the Sale NewTek had, wasn't much of a sale at all. I can't see the future- so I didn't know the release was just around the corner. I came into it knowing 11.x had been around for a while, but I was thinking there was at least one more point release. I also thought this was probably a promotion coordinated by Octane to push sales.

NewTek DID know the release timeframe for LW2015, and had their so called "Sale"- knowing anyone jumping into it would hit a brick wall in terms of bug fixing in 11.x & would most likely have to upgrade shortly there after especially since Octane is going to focus on LW2015.

The Octane Bundle promotion wasn't around for months- it was around for just a couple of weeks as best as I can remember. Why have the promotion at the very, very end of the 11.x life cycle(?) You can rationalize that dollar for dollar- adding up everything breaks about even, but the issue I have is that the Promotion was spun as getting Octane for practically nothing.

I can't see the logic to it at all. I must not have the same thought process as everyone, or I have tunnel vision in my thinking.

Skonk
12-04-2014, 12:58 PM
And this thread had nothing to do with post charter members?

It was about a guy buying lightwave then 2 months later a new version coming out and thus has now lost the support of bug fixes and chance of updates for the version he owns after only 2 months of use.

EDIT: was writing this when Rob posted his second response.

robpowers3d
12-04-2014, 01:04 PM
This is absolutely true hrgiger, thanks for stating your opinion on the matter. That is the challenge, no matter where we draw the line we will have someone who is not happy. Ultimately we have to do the best we can at coming out with updates to the software but logically it does stand to reason that the later that an upgrade is made after a new release the less time there is before the next release. That is a built in reality of progressive software updates and I don't think that LightWave is unique in that way.


Well, the Octane promotion was just that, a chance to get Octane in a bundle deal and that's what you were buying. LW3DG has been running specials on and off through the year so it probably has little to do with when the next version of LW was due out and I can't imagine that they are scamming to trick a handful of people to buy a bundle just so they can charge them again in a few months. Is there any reason to think that Octane won't continue to work within LW 11? I'm not saying your wrong in feeling duped, but I'm just trying to play devils advocate a bit as I do think you do have to consider, as you said, that you knew LW 11 had been around for a while and nobody ever seems to know when LW will release a new version so there's always a chance this will happen. I'd be pissed if I upgraded and then found out I missed a free upgrade by only a week or a month, but Newtek has to draw the line somewhere and some people are just going to fall outside of that.

robpowers3d
12-04-2014, 01:11 PM
Agreed. Esp. given the "hints" (LW3DG reps posting pics showing 11.7 etc) dropped suggesting that 11.x wasn't at end-of-life, for LW3DG to deliberately exclude these bundle customers from the grace period feels like unfair treatment.

jwiede,

You certainly have the right to speculate or make assumptions about this but the fact is that the LightWave 3D Group has never officially made any announcements or statements about any 11.x version of the software beyond the 11.6 range of updates. I've now cleared up any confusion related to bundle customers and any who did purchase within our 30 day grace period are covered. I wish we could extend that to everyone with no limitations but we have to cut it off somewhere and as hrgiger stated, there is always someone that falls outside of any cut off point.