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Columbo24
11-27-2014, 08:02 AM
I'm having a problem getting rounded edges. I'm creating a gun similar to this one. The portion of the gun thats toward the barrel at the top where the screws are. They're square shapes with a rounded contour. I'm also putting screws in them. In the pics you'll see the problem I'm having.When I'm not in sub patch the edges are to sharp(perpendicular) and when I'm in sub patch the contours to bloated. I try using the knife tool etc. to sharpen the edges,but I get a mess as you can see. How do I make smooth edges and soft contours? When I try to get certain edges and contours the object breaks apart or has weird edges in sub patch. Also when I try to boolean or drill in sub patch it does not work. I tried to move the mesh around in a circular pattern and then bevel, but no go.
1. Why does sub patch break apart and what is the secret to making sharper edges in sub patch?
2.In sub patch do you move around the mesh to shape it and then bevel it instead of the drill tool?
3.Is sub patch the way to go when dealing with inorganic objects with more perpendicular edges-guns,desks etc. ?
Thanks
Bill

wesleycorgi
11-27-2014, 08:23 AM
If you have LW 11 or higher Edit Edges is your friend; read the manual on this. It helped me like doing Subd's after years of avoiding subdivision. Now, I'm forcing myself to make all objects subd's.

It looks like you have N-gons (more than 4 edges) that is causing the issues (I'm assuming you are using regular subd's and not Catmull-Clark).

I'm far from an expert, but Chilton Webb's tutorials on Liberty 3D helped me quite a bit (and they currently have a Thanksgiving sale):

http://www.liberty3d.com/2013/03/secrets-of-subd-modeling-volume-1/

http://www.liberty3d.com/2013/03/secrets-of-subd-modeling-volume-2/

I recently rewatched the tutorial he had on holes inside of geometry.

jeric_synergy
11-27-2014, 01:51 PM
There've been several long threads on subpatch modeling, try to locate them ( Tony3D, probiner, and JoePoe are regular participants (for Search purposes)).

Here's one tip: AFAICT, an 8-sided circle is perfectly sufficient to define a circular hole in SubD. I note your hole starts w/a 12 sided circle. Delete that, and start again w/an 8 sided circle and you might have better luck. (At the very least, it's fewer polys to connect.)

Since circles are often the bugaboo in subd modeling, IMO it sometimes makes sense to START parts of the geometry w/them, and build outward to the simpler, blocky parts. Also, you can have circular COMPONENTS hovering nearby (hidden) to patch into more linear geometry as needed.

I don't think there's a specific MODELING forum here-- there certainly should be.

prometheus
11-27-2014, 06:05 PM
I think many modeler would shy away from subpatching when doing this, because if you do...you can stencil and add detail with much more freedom than with subpatches, there are guys we should adore who can do that stuff with subpatches and they have a very good understanding of how to work with edge loops and poly flow, and that takes some training to wrap your head around.
stenciling on polys and use insets,bevels and rounder will in most cases be ok in standard polys without having to think about quads and tris.

however...regarding subpatches, catmull clark subpatches will give you more freedom and not worrying about all quads, but it is also a lot more slower to work with.

1. Standard subpatches has ways to set edge weight sharpness values,if you select an edge and go to map/edges/general/set map value, and 100% red weight is 100% sharpness, use viewport mode set to weight to see the effect. you can also use airbrush to paint sharpness.

2. catmull clark subpatches gives a little more option to control sharpness, as the same above, pick edges,points or polys and set value, but I believe it donīt work with airbrush weight as standard subpatches does, you can however go to the detail tab edges/more and use set cc sharpness at a value of you choice, or use the increase and decrease sharpness buttons to fine tune how much sharpnes there will be.


3. Important that you are working in subpatch weight mode and not just painted vertex weight map, in the bottom right corner in layout you have "w" which is the operating mode to be in, and in the dropdown list you decide which map you are working with and can also create a new map or several maps from scratch.

there are some old simple tutes from William Vaughan on youtube and also on lightwave 24 hours training where he goes through this...I think there was, canīt seem to find them now.


4. there are other subpatch tutes that covers working with subpatches and with focus on edge loops to control the sharpness so that has nothing to do with weights, rather making extra cutting edgeloops/bevels or chamfers around the subpathes that will have sharper edges, but as mentioned, it will take some time to learn that good I think.

http://www.pixelandpoly.com/video.html

5. skip polymodeling, and do the modeling in some solid cad software like moi, of some freecad, viacad...rhino is a nurbs program which might also do this stuff easier, want a poly model? well you can convert to polys later, moi might do that very well if the mesh isnīt to dense.
Moi has two trial version, one fully functional and with savings for a limited time, and one trial version which you can use without time limit to learn, but you canīt save with it...good approach.

http://moi3d.com/

6. modoīs mesh fusion plugins seems awesome for this stuff, check out that too, much more expensive than metamesh though.

http://www.thefoundry.co.uk/products/modo/plugins/meshfusion/


7. 3rd powers boolean, and metamesh tools plugin for lightwave will be cheaper and might help too, though it might not provide qually nice high dense booleans, but I know too little about that.
http://www.3rdpowers.com/index.html

and as mentioned, think of the model as seperate parts where possible and when needed, so you can have certain areas with denser subpatched mesh, and others not so dense, and it will be easier to adjust sharpnes next to antother surface that is smoother.
you can use subdivide facet for only adding hard divisions, smooth to smoother divisions and metaform options to increase polydivisions.


125719

prometheus
11-27-2014, 06:20 PM
Oh...and donīt try and drill and use booleans in subpatch mode, unless using metamesh from 3rd powers,
I also forgot to mention, lw cad that has real time booleans too, not with subpatch mode though...
http://www.wtools3d.com/manual/manual3/assets/video/pol_booleans/pol_booleans.htm
http://www.wtools3d.com/manual/manual3/

when you drill on a poly object it will cut and drill or subtract without any ways of connecting surronding points to make the polys only quads, and you need only quads(or tris..which can generate pinching artifacts) most of the time for a sucessful subpatch model, so the workflow is to drill and use booleans before you patch, and you have to clean up and work that geometry manually by connecting points or use some plugins to make quads.
but thatīs why your subpatch becomes broken when you do a boolean in subpatch mode, metamesh or realtime booleans might work as a complement for a better workflow if you can afford it.

Pensart
11-27-2014, 06:49 PM
Spline Patching is the best modeling tool in the whole suite. you just have to experiment a little bit more to get used to it. And to be honest, there are really not that good tutorials out there that prove the advantages of the Spline modeling process. But once you do use it, you will use it alot. And keep in mind that SplinePatching can help you a lot on making UV's so there is no need to use unwrap tools or plugins. And i bet you would be impressed to notice how quickly some models can be modelled with spline patching.

Catmull Clark is not slower!! Dont forget that CC is dividing the mesh another way. Try this... model a cube. suppatch and freeze. Then model another cube or early copy CC suppatch and freeze... And u will notice that CC will have double the polygons then using the regular SupPatches. So, if u use to decide to go with CC press the [O] key to open the general options panel and lower the value at Catmull Clark. They have their advantages!

I have very big problems with spare time at this moment to help u out Columbo but i'm giving the advice that u will look up some tutorials on hard edge modeling at vimeo or youtube. Your way of thinking to model this is so wrong. Even check out some wireframe renders and focus near the tight edges. If time is on my side, i will be posting some tutorials in the first quarter next year, especially on Spline modeling. This is not a promise but i will do my best. I bet that you would pick-up Spline modeling very soon after seeing some of those ways i'm using the spline patching...

All regards,
GP.

prometheus
11-27-2014, 07:09 PM
Spline Patching is the best modeling tool in the whole suite. you just have to experiment a little bit more to get used to it. And to be honest, there are really not that good tutorials out there that prove the advantages of the Spline modeling process. But once you do use it, you will use it alot. And keep in mind that SplinePatching can help you a lot on making UV's so there is no need to use unwrap tools or plugins. And i bet you would be impressed to notice how quickly some models can be modelled with spline patching.

Catmull Clark is not slower!! Dont forget that CC is dividing the mesh another way. Try this... model a cube. suppatch and freeze. Then model another cube or early copy CC suppatch and freeze... And u will notice that CC will have double the polygons then using the regular SupPatches. So, if u use to decide to go with CC press the [O] key to open the general options panel and lower the value at Catmull Clark. They have their advantages!

I have very big problems with spare time at this moment to help u out Columbo but i'm giving the advice that u will look up some tutorials on hard edge modeling at vimeo or youtube. Your way of thinking to model this is so wrong. Even check out some wireframe renders and focus near the tight edges. If time is on my side, i will be posting some tutorials in the first quarter next year, especially on Spline modeling. This is not a promise but i will do my best. I bet that you would pick-up Spline modeling very soon after seeing some of those ways i'm using the spline patching...

All regards,


GP.

Thanks Penart, your are of course right, I am fooled by the same level of subpatch levels set, from there they are slower...but technically, you are right.
I have my doubts of spline patching being the best tools for this modeling tasks, but I will be happy to see you prove me wrong when you showcase some of your stuff, it might also be very very dependend on oneself as a person what is most suitable.
Looking forward to tutes.:thumbsup:
By the way..cm_loft (search lightave plugin database) is nice to use for lofting, and pictrix bezier curve is nice to create curve profiles with hard edged curves, works with cm loft and spline patching too, perhaps some of true arts spline tools might be worth checking out too.

- - - Updated - - -

Anyone thinking zbrush and hard surface modeling is easy with it, and using remesher to clean it up?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozCkjcg0Foc

BigHache
11-27-2014, 08:20 PM
I've been using 3D Coat and Auto Retopo for hard modeling lately and it's been working out rather well. I actually have been using 3D Coat for Boolean tasks too. Starting off models in 3D Coat feels a bit ambiguous to me and I need models to be pretty precise, so I do base meshes in LW. I bring the models back into LW to verify and do any cleanup that needs to be made (Auto Retopo is not perfect and manual Retopo can be time consuming for my models).

Surrealist.
11-27-2014, 09:51 PM
The workflow we used recently at my studio was to allow my Zbrush artist to go for it in Zbrush. Then we took the gun and did retopo and mainly covered the larger parts. But all of the major seams and parts that fit together were separate parts as Subdivision Surfaces.

At about :56 in this promo video is the Gun textured after retopo:

http://www.richardculver.com/

In the Quick Look Gallery is just some models I have done in Subdivision Surfaces. Attached are some renders of the gun we did (and I supervised but did not model) showing what was subpatched.

125723125724125725

The thing is, there are many things to take into consideration when modeling. First and foremost is you don't need or want, and in some cases, due to ram limitations, are unable to support, real dense meshes. This is one of the many reasons why SubDivision surfaces were invented and still used.

It is a process that takes some learning. In my studio I found people learned quickest, by keeping it very simple. And this was the idea in my tutorial. Literally, you will not encounter a shape you can not make with the basics I outline in my tutorial. It is just a matter of breaking down each section of a larger work into simple primitive shapes and then patching it all together.

It does not matter if you do it in Zbrush first or elsewhere. Someplace along the lines you need to make this thing something you can use and this is where retopo comes in. And then you can choose what parts to include in the retopo version and what parts to make to maps.

But I do not advocate nor use - mostly - any auto retopo techniques. At present none of them take into account the level of care you need to do by hand for hard surface shapes. I have used it as a helpful tool for organic shapes and characters. Then I come back in and edit or change parts where I need more control.