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View Full Version : HardCore members on 11.6 - upgrade still at $395 ???



GregMalick
11-24-2014, 03:34 PM
For HardCore Charter members....

cagey5
11-24-2014, 03:39 PM
Why would you think it isn't?

GregMalick
11-24-2014, 03:44 PM
Why would you think it isn't?
Have you received a confirmation?

I did email Support about it.
I'm waiting for the official word.

hrgiger
11-24-2014, 03:45 PM
Well I would certainly hope so. Seems everyone is now on the $495 upgrade price otherwise. Doesn't seem like such a good reward now to be a charter member.

3dworks
11-24-2014, 03:52 PM
yes.

COBRASoft
11-24-2014, 04:04 PM
I was one of the early buyers of HardCORE and the price on the site was correct: $ 395.00.

jwiede
11-24-2014, 04:06 PM
Doesn't seem like such a good reward now to be a charter member.

Imagine how much of a slap it feels for those of us promised 5x releases at "discount price" of $495. That aspect alone killed off the majority of what little respect I still had for LW3DG. The rest of it was killed off by a combination of them making Bullet constraints a "major feature" of LW12, and the general lack of features in what they're selling as a version-level upgrade.

Hopefully there are some damned impressive infrastructure improvements hiding in there, because I'm not very impressed so far by LW12 -- esp. given how long it's been since 11.6.2 came out (the end of LW11.x work).

CaptainMarlowe
11-24-2014, 04:11 PM
Have you checked your account ? Dont check upgrade in the store but in jour account directly.

GregMalick
11-24-2014, 04:11 PM
OK. I clicked on the "Upgrade" button my accounts page and the Store shows $395.

I was confused for a bit.
$395 upgrade is complete.

Saville
11-24-2014, 04:13 PM
I was trying to understand this too.

In order to maintain my "deal" I'd need to upgrade to 11.x for $495, of which I haven't found a good reason to do so, then I'd have to upgrade to LW 2015 for another $495.

Or I could just bypass 11 and upgrade to 2015 for $495....


Hmmm, let me think about it.

Snosrap
11-24-2014, 04:32 PM
I was trying to understand this too.

In order to maintain my "deal" I'd need to upgrade to 11.x for $495, of which I haven't found a good reason to do so, then I'd have to upgrade to LW 2015 for another $495.

Or I could just bypass 11 and upgrade to 2015 for $495....


Hmmm, let me think about it.
For those that bit in on that e-mail from Rob that went out over the weekend really got screwed. :)

Saville
11-24-2014, 04:53 PM
For those that bit in on that e-mail from Rob that went out over the weekend really got screwed. :)

Absolutely! I would be furious if I had done the same.

jwiede
11-24-2014, 05:13 PM
Have you checked your account ? Dont check upgrade in the store but in jour account directly.

Yes, using the "Buy upgrade" button on my account page yields a price for upgrade of $495, in other words, no discount whatsoever despite being a post-Charter HC member.

I can't wait to hear how the usual zealots try to excuse away that HC offer letter (for those still on LW10.x) and what it represents in light of LW12 pricing.

roboman
11-24-2014, 09:56 PM
Imagine how much of a slap it feels for those of us promised 5x releases at "discount price" of $495. That aspect alone killed off the majority of what little respect I still had for LW3DG. The whole HC thing still pisses me off. I never even managed to get my copy of HC, just months of an account that didn't work, then find out about it being killed and all I get is an offer for discounts if I keep upgrading. The offer being worthless just pisses me off again. I like the software a lot, but the company makes it hard to like them.

Megalodon2.0
11-25-2014, 12:04 AM
Imagine how much of a slap it feels for those of us promised 5x releases at "discount price" of $495. That aspect alone killed off the majority of what little respect I still had for LW3DG. The rest of it was killed off by a combination of them making Bullet constraints a "major feature" of LW12, and the general lack of features in what they're selling as a version-level upgrade.

This is how I felt about the upgrade to LW10 and the ENTIRE (albeit only .1) development cycle. Which is why I am no longer a "HardCORE member." ;)

hrgiger
11-26-2014, 10:28 AM
Well call me a zealot if you will....

Originally when I saw they had dropped the price of LightWave 2015 to $495, my initial reaction was probably similar to some here. I thought that those of us in hardcore should receive an additional discount relative to the price drop. However, having considered it more, Rob is correct that the pricing we got was a price lock to guard against future price increases, not simply a discount. For those of us who bought into CORE early, our price is $395, the same as a pre-CORE upgrade price minus the printed manual. LW11 upgrade price was $695 so I saved $300 already. And if the next version of LW goes up again (which I think is a possibility if they are indeed working on core architecture), then I dont need to worry about paying more.

The funny part though is that people with the $495 price are not paying a penny more then they would have if the price had not been reduced but they still think they're being cheated somehow. I understand that it seemed like a benefit that you paid less then non-charter members, but it was never suggested that you would always pay less then everyone else, just that if the price went up, you wouldnt pay more.

spherical
11-26-2014, 01:32 PM
Yes, that's how it can be Monday Morning Quarterbacked. When the deal was struck, no one -- not even NewTek, was thinking about a price drop. So, in that light, the argument is moot. Yes, it would be way different if upgrades from not only the previous version (required for Charter) but versions way back to the Beginning Of Time, now cost LESS than a Charter price (which they do on Liberty3D). The thing that everyone is overlooking is that it isn't very likely that the prices will be raised anytime soon, after they just dropped. What would be the point of that? The current pricing schedule isn't temporal, so won't time out soon. I bought in, so don't have an axe to grind. Just trying to keep things level.

Megalodon2.0
11-26-2014, 01:47 PM
Well call me a zealot if you will....

Originally when I saw they had dropped the price of LightWave 2015 to $495, my initial reaction was probably similar to some here. I thought that those of us in hardcore should receive an additional discount relative to the price drop. However, having considered it more, Rob is correct that the pricing we got was a price lock to guard against future price increases, not simply a discount. For those of us who bought into CORE early, our price is $395, the same as a pre-CORE upgrade price minus the printed manual. LW11 upgrade price was $695 so I saved $300 already. And if the next version of LW goes up again (which I think is a possibility if they are indeed working on core architecture), then I dont need to worry about paying more.
Considering that they are now going with a yearly naming convention I would assume (uh-oh) that there will be yearly builds. It is HIGHLY doubtful - if this is true - that the price will go UP. In fact it should go DOWN since there will be less "bang for the buck" included in every release. Again, this is assuming that there will be yearly releases. Since LW3DG is not saying anything about this yet, we don't know. And if there ARE yearly releases, reducing the upgrade price would also entice MANY users to upgrade every time. Instead of a "forced upgrade" as they have in subscription, it would be voluntary and a lower price would help considerably.


The funny part though is that people with the $495 price are not paying a penny more then they would have if the price had not been reduced but they still think they're being cheated somehow. I understand that it seemed like a benefit that you paid less then non-charter members, but it was never suggested that you would always pay less then everyone else, just that if the price went up, you wouldnt pay more.
If I were still in that group I WOULD feel cheated. For all of the crap and delays that HC members put up with, they got what they believed to be a DISCOUNT for all five upgrades. Regardless that it is locked in, LW3DG CAN indeed give HC users a REAL discount. If they end up not raising the price of the next three upgrades - which I doubt they will - HC users will essentially get the $300 from the initial savings and then nothing. And since we can still skip versions and pay the same price - which I hope LW3DG NEVER changes - HC membership has really zero plus side at the moment. IMO of course.

spherical
11-26-2014, 02:24 PM
Essentially, looking at this from LW3DG's side, it's a damned if you do, damned if you don't rock and a hard place situation. Dropping prices is a Good Thing. But, there's that pesky Charter deal that is in the mix. What to do.. what to do? Can't please all of the people all of the time, but I'd say that they did as best they could. A retrofit discount for Charter Members would have been nice, but the Charter deal has long been struck. I've upgraded our seats all along, not necessarily to keep the Charter going. Sometimes, what with the banks tanking the economy to their own benefit, it was difficult to swing. What got me to pull the trigger was the improvements.

hrgiger
11-26-2014, 03:09 PM
Well, all I can say is that there are a lot of unknowns. Just because its now called LW 2015 doesn't necessarily imply yearly releases. It just means that this is the latest release on the eve of 2015. They could have lowered the price this time around because there are other things planned that aren't ready yet and that it means this release is a smaller release. They keep indicating they are working on the architecture so perhaps when those other systems are ready, there will be more substantial things to show at that point and the price may once again be raised. I wouldn't assume anything.

Honestly though Megalodon, you would have still been in this group, but you also felt cheated when CORE fell apart and the deliverables ended up being 10 which I will grant you was not LightWave's best release. Be honest, with all the other companies out there, Newtek has been pretty generous in its pricing policies and what other company would guarantee you the same locked in price for 5 future updates? I can't think of one other then maybe Pixologic who hasns't charged for an update now for several years. Who has also given out countless free updates to its software with some pretty nice new features and additions? It might not be apparent right now since the price is the same as the late charter membership, but at least people know what to plan for when figuring if they're going to upgrade or not. Other people have no idea how much their upgrades might be once a release is out.

But again, if you're just looking at this from a discount perspective, people will just continue to feel cheated because they think they should just always have to pay less then everyone else. Even Rob/Newtek probably had no clue what they might be charging for upgrades 4 years out from when they made this deal. What they did though, was offer people to lock in their upgrade price so that it would not go up. And in that, they are still delivering on that.

I have a feeling that there is a reason for the price drop and I suspect that it very well go up again if they do indeed start introducing new architecture such as a revamped geometry engine, integrated workflows, etc....

jasonwestmas
11-26-2014, 03:20 PM
Imagine how much of a slap it feels for those of us promised 5x releases at "discount price" of $495. That aspect alone killed off the majority of what little respect I still had for LW3DG. The rest of it was killed off by a combination of them making Bullet constraints a "major feature" of LW12, and the general lack of features in what they're selling as a version-level upgrade.

Hopefully there are some damned impressive infrastructure improvements hiding in there, because I'm not very impressed so far by LW12 -- esp. given how long it's been since 11.6.2 came out (the end of LW11.x work).

your charter price should say 395 in U.S. dollars. Not that it's a huge difference or anything.

Megalodon2.0
11-26-2014, 03:35 PM
Well, all I can say is that there are a lot of unknowns. Just because its now called LW 2015 doesn't necessarily imply yearly releases. It just means that this is the latest release on the eve of 2015. They could have lowered the price this time around because there are other things planned that aren't ready yet and that it means this release is a smaller release. They keep indicating they are working on the architecture so perhaps when those other systems are ready, there will be more substantial things to show at that point and the price may once again be raised. I wouldn't assume anything.
There is too much IN the name of 2015. If it was just another release it would be LW12. But you're right. We don't know. Then again... I was one of the ones who said we would be using LW12 (now LW2015) LONG before the next Siggraph. ;)


Honestly though Megalodon, you would have still been in this group, but you also felt cheated when CORE fell apart and the deliverables ended up being 10 which I will grant you was not LightWave's best release. Be honest, with all the other companies out there, Newtek has been pretty generous in its pricing policies and what other company would guarantee you the same locked in price for 5 future updates? I can't think of one other then maybe Pixologic who hasns't charged for an update now for several years. Who has also given out countless free updates to its software with some pretty nice new features and additions? It might not be apparent right now since the price is the same as the late charter membership, but at least people know what to plan for when figuring if they're going to upgrade or not. Other people have no idea how much their upgrades might be once a release is out.
That's right. The dropping of CORE was a supreme disappointment - but one that I quickly understood and made peace with. But leaving LW10 at .1 was too much to take - for ME. You don't give a substandard release after dropping CORE and disappointing a huge number of users. LW10 should have been what LW11 was. I supported NT sight unseen with CORE - even when it was extremely difficult due to the recession - and was rewarded with 10.1.

But yes, overall NT has had VERY generous policies and their upgrade policy - IMO - is the very best out there. But for a company to continue to be viable and be supported by their customers, they must always deliver and prove to their customer that the upgrade is worth it. 10.1 was NOT worth it to me and MANY others. And immediately after CORE was NOT the time to skimp on the upgrade. The past means nothing when (again IMO) we were taken advantage of with 10.1.


But again, if you're just looking at this from a discount perspective, people will just continue to feel cheated because they think they should just always have to pay less then everyone else. Even Rob/Newtek probably had no clue what they might be charging for upgrades 4 years out from when they made this deal. What they did though, was offer people to lock in their upgrade price so that it would not go up. And in that, they are still delivering on that.

I have a feeling that there is a reason for the price drop and I suspect that it very well go up again if they do indeed start introducing new architecture such as a revamped geometry engine, integrated workflows, etc....

In regards to the 5 upgrade policy... we will just have to agree to disagree. It doesn't affect me at all, but I think HC members should have been provided an additional discount - even if only $50. And when we discover that releases will now be yearly with less features per release and the price does not go up, this non-discount will be something that will fester and people will not forget it. I honestly don't care since I don't get the discount. IMO it's just about being fair to your customers. And I understand about the "locking in the price" - but LW3DG can do ANYTHING they want and offering a small additional discount to HC members would not be difficult at all. And this is something that they should have thought of before making any announcements about LW2015.

And I disagree with the price going up ANYTIME soon - especially if there will be yearly releases. And we'll know in about a year or so anyway, so things will be interesting.

And for the record, I think that the development team on LW is great AND doing a terrific job. I use LW11 every day - along with 5.5, 7 and 9.6 - and enjoy using it. Hopefully Rob's decision of dropping CORE and plowing ahead with the old architecture was the right strategy. For the moment, I'm still here. ;)

Snosrap
11-26-2014, 06:06 PM
On the other hand lowering of the price makes it more palatable for newcomers to come on board - new blood is always good. 2015 does seem a little light for a full revision release, but considering the mess the dev team inherited and what they have done with it in the last 3 years is almost cause for celebration. :)

3djock
11-26-2014, 06:17 PM
Well call me a zealot if you will....



The funny part though is that people with the $495 price are not paying a penny more then they would have if the price had not been reduced but they still think they're being cheated somehow. I understand that it seemed like a benefit that you paid less then non-charter members, but it was never suggested that you would always pay less then everyone else, just that if the price went up, you wouldnt pay more.

I have to agree with you on that part anybody that did not get on the first round got diddly it did not matter being a hardcore member or not it ended up being a joke on us that got in later:jester:. So the punchline is why bother? Wait later and see no big hurry.

jwiede
11-26-2014, 06:19 PM
but considering the mess the dev team inherited and what they have done with it in the last 3 years is almost cause for celebration. :)

Umm, do you believe there was a massive change in dev team composition at the transition from Newtek Lightwave development to LW3DG development approx. three years ago?

Your statement seems to suggest you do, but AFAICT there actually wasn't such a change (aside from typical employee turnover over time). The LW developers who "inherited" the mess are the same developers who, by and large, let the mess occur in the first place.

Snosrap
11-26-2014, 06:34 PM
Umm, do you believe there was a massive change in dev team composition at the transition from Newtek Lightwave development to LW3DG development approx. three years ago?

Your statement seems to suggest you do, but AFAICT there actually wasn't such a change (aside from typical employee turnover over time). The LW developers who "inherited" the mess are the same developers who, by and large, let the mess occur in the first place. Rob took charge 3+ years ago and is trying to fix the mess made by the group that now makes Modo, which Jay Roth didn't want to fix - he wanted to replace it and we all know how that went over. :) Rob comes in and say's ""there is a lot to like about LW, let's improve it and bring it up to speed."" He is on track IMO.

Megalodon2.0
11-26-2014, 06:49 PM
Rob took charge 3+ years ago and is trying to fix the mess made by the group that now makes Modo, which Jay Roth didn't want to fix - he wanted to replace it and we all know how that went over. :) Rob comes in and say's ""there is a lot to like about LW, let's improve it and bring it up to speed."" He is on track IMO.

You do know that the original LW team left well more than a decade ago - in 2001, right? LW6 - AFAIK - was the last version the original team worked on.

jwiede
11-26-2014, 07:07 PM
Rob took charge 3+ years ago and is trying to fix the mess made by the group that now makes Modo, which Jay Roth didn't want to fix - he wanted to replace it and we all know how that went over. :) Rob comes in and say's ""there is a lot to like about LW, let's improve it and bring it up to speed."" He is on track IMO.

Suggesting that nothing significantly positive happened to LW during Roth's tenure (just "replacement" work) is revisionist history on a gross scale. The LW9.x cycle so many have recently mentioned liking so well? That was, f.e.., Roth's doing and responsibility.

You also seem to have some odd ideas about how developers work and interact with management day to day.

mattc
11-26-2014, 07:27 PM
Suggesting that nothing significantly positive happened to LW during Roth's tenure (just "replacement" work) is revisionist history on a gross scale. The LW9.x cycle so many have recently mentioned liking so well? That was, f.e.., Roth's doing and responsibility.

You also seem to have some odd ideas about how developers work and interact with management day to day.

I think you've summed it pretty nicely there John.

Tranimatronic
11-26-2014, 08:06 PM
post charter price is $495
Liberty3d price $449.
It is CHEAPER to buy it elsewhere than using my post charter membership.
Way to go alienating the very people that paid up front in faith for a product they never saw.
So its not as though there is no wiggle room in the price.

BokadCastle
11-26-2014, 08:10 PM
HardCore members on 11.6 - upgrade still at $395 ???

Yep, I was a charter member or HC1 and I've upgraded to LW2015 for $395 US.

I'm looking forward to the future releases for the same modest investment.

spherical
11-26-2014, 08:50 PM
Well, you know, I was in the "What happened to my advantage" group a couple of days ago, but now having learned of the Liberty3D price, I don't much care if it is direct from NewTek or not. All the time in marketing manufacturers charge a higher price than their authorized sellers. This protects their seller's market. If the manufacturer undercut the seller, they wouldn't have any sellers. Take the better deal and be happy that it has been offered. Consider it NewTek's way of making a discount for their loyal customers. After all, people who know LightWave also are aware of Liberty3D. If not, they should be.

Shabazzy
11-26-2014, 08:59 PM
post charter price is $495
Liberty3d price $449.
It is CHEAPER to buy it elsewhere than using my post charter membership.
Way to go alienating the very people that paid up front in faith for a product they never saw.
So its not as though there is no wiggle room in the price.

Speaking as a Brit, this deal by Liberty3D isn't really as good for us as the LW3DG Post Charter upgrade price of $495. Primarily because of the VAT situation.

The LW3DG post charter price works out to 252 GBP without the VAT of 20% added to it, and the Liberty3D upgrade price works out to around 285 (based on the current GBP to USD rate). This is relevant because, since Liberty3D are based in Canada, they don't have to charge UK VAT on their sales to British customers. So if you compare Liberty3D's price against LW3DG's pre VAT price, LW3DG are giving a much better deal to us.

spherical
11-26-2014, 09:02 PM
...and the post VAT price is?

How about when you add in the 35% off coupon for Liberty3D products?

Megalodon2.0
11-26-2014, 09:33 PM
Well, you know, I was in the "What happened to my advantage" group a couple of days ago, but now having learned of the Liberty3D price, I don't much care if it is direct from NewTek or not. All the time in marketing manufacturers charge a higher price than their authorized sellers. This protects their seller's market. If the manufacturer undercut the seller, they wouldn't have any sellers. Take the better deal and be happy that it has been offered. Consider it NewTek's way of making a discount for their loyal customers. After all, people who know LightWave also are aware of Liberty3D. If not, they should be.

I wouldn't consider this an issue at all since the discount would only be for HardCORE members. If Liberty has a sale price of $449, then make HC member pricing $295 and $395. Yes, LW3DG will make less, but the goodwill would have FAR outweighed that. You want people talking about the software, not the poor management missteps.

spherical
11-26-2014, 09:39 PM
I think this has been beaten to death. Seem my post on protecting sellers and why the mfr price should always be higher in the other thread. :\

Snosrap
11-26-2014, 09:39 PM
You do know that the original LW team left well more than a decade ago - in 2001, right? LW6 - AFAIK - was the last version the original team worked on.

LW 7.5 was the last version Allen and Stuart worked on and that came out in 2002. But there was a period between 2001 and 2002 that LW had "two mommies". (If you don't know what that means then you don't know your LW/modo history. :) ) Allen and Stuart wanted to start all over and indeed had been working on the next version of LW (later called modo) when there were some internal affairs that caused them to split from NT. Some of the programmers remained at NT and some new ones were hired (a few freelancers were as also brought in) and delivered LW 8 in June of 2004. Modo 101 appeared in Sept. of that same year. Jay Roth came to NT in March of 2005 and he directed the development of LW 9 which was released in July 2006. And you know the rest. Core. etc. :) The LW workflows and architecture that we use today were designed in 1998 and delivered as LW6 in 1999 and that is the mess I am referring to. Some of it was/is pretty good, some not - and that is what Rob and gang are slowly fixing.

Snosrap
11-26-2014, 09:55 PM
Suggesting that nothing significantly positive happened to LW during Roth's tenure (just "replacement" work) is revisionist history on a gross scale. The LW9.x cycle so many have recently mentioned liking so well? That was, f.e.., Roth's doing and responsibility.

You also seem to have some odd ideas about how developers work and interact with management day to day. LW 9 indeed was a solid release with nodes being added and some of Mark Grangers work on the render engine. I think one of the things that got fixed in that cycle (could have been 8, don't remember for sure) was SubD UV map blurring! That was a huge issue back in the day that everyone bit*hed about and Stuart and Allen said couldn't be done without a total re-write. I really have no idea how developers work and interact with management day to day only to think that it probably isn't much different than how you or I would interact with our own management. :)

Megalodon2.0
11-26-2014, 10:07 PM
LW 7.5 was the last version Allen and Stuart worked on and that came out in 2002. But there was a period between 2001 and 2002 that LW had "two mommies". (If you don't know what that means then you don't know your LW/modo history. :) ) Allen and Stuart wanted to start all over and indeed had been working on the next version of LW (later called modo) when there were some internal affairs that caused them to split from NT. Some of the programmers remained at NT and some new ones were hired (a few freelancers were as also brought in) and delivered LW 8 in June of 2004. Modo 101 appeared in Sept. of that same year. Jay Roth came to NT in March of 2005 and he directed the development of LW 9 which was released in July 2006. And you know the rest. Core. etc. :) The LW workflows and architecture that we use today were designed in 1998 and delivered as LW6 in 1999 and that is the mess I am referring to. Some of it was/is pretty good, some not - and that is what Rob and gang are slowly fixing.

Yes, those of us who've been using LW since about '95 know the history very well. I was also on the Yahoo LW mailing list and remember that time of the split VERY well - going back and forth with Brad and Chuck about who owns LW, etc.

The point is, the "old code" has been around a long time AND the team currently working on it has been working with it for a LONG time as well. This isn't something that all of a sudden Rob Powers and the developers now have to deal with. Most of them should be intimately aware of the code and this also makes them uniquely suited to upgrading that code. Also, remember that CORE tech is still being used and much of that - according to Rob - is useful in upgrading the old architecture.

I don't know if going with CORE would have been better or not. I don't know if Rob scrapping CORE was a good idea or not. IMO I would have gone with a dual schedule working on CORE and old LW - mostly on CORE. Perhaps something like a 70-30 split with the bulk going to CORE. And who knows, maybe that's something that they're doing anyway. :)

Megalodon2.0
11-26-2014, 10:17 PM
I think this has been beaten to death. Seem my post on protecting sellers and why the mfr price should always be higher in the other thread. :\

My point was... it doesn't HAVE to be "protected" for JUST HC members. They don't make up a HUGE portion of the userbase. Notice the rather large differences in number of users between the HC forums and the regular forums?

Edit. And I just thought... at $395 THAT price is less than all sellers. So simply adding the second tier members is not that big a deal.

Tranimatronic
11-27-2014, 12:25 AM
Edit. And I just thought... at $395 THAT price is less than all sellers. So simply adding the second tier members is not that big a deal.

It shouldnt be THAT big a deal. Seeing the product for sale at a lower price elsewhere proves there is wiggle room on the price, but they choose to pi** off their userbase instead.
Sure, you cant please all the people all the time, but there is a line between "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" and "you really dont matter to us"
Either that or some bizarre delusion that "our product is loved by its userbase and people will just handover the cash"
If you want to see how that mentality works out just visit www.setuptab.com

spherical
11-27-2014, 02:23 AM
My point was... it doesn't HAVE to be "protected" for JUST HC members. They don't make up a HUGE portion of the userbase. Notice the rather large differences in number of users between the HC forums and the regular forums?

Edit. And I just thought... at $395 THAT price is less than all sellers. So simply adding the second tier members is not that big a deal.

You really need to chill out, dude. Really. Give it, and yourself, a rest.

- - - Updated - - -


It shouldnt be THAT big a deal. Seeing the product for sale at a lower price elsewhere proves there is wiggle room on the price, but they choose to pi** off their userbase instead.
Sure, you cant please all the people all the time, but there is a line between "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" and "you really dont matter to us"
Either that or some bizarre delusion that "our product is loved by its userbase and people will just handover the cash"
If you want to see how that mentality works out just visit www.setuptab.com

And for less than $50 you're going to push this point to the end? Yikes!

Megalodon2.0
11-27-2014, 02:32 AM
You really need to chill out, dude. Really. Give it, and yourself, a rest.

I see... so you go as far as YOU think is okay, and then it's "he's really upset and should chill out because I think so." :ohmy:

Get a grip spherical... the world doesn't revolve around YOUR sensibilities. :dance:

spherical
11-27-2014, 02:34 AM
Nor yours. Geez....

I'd say, as would a whole lot of people here, that our respective choice of avatars says more about who we are than just about anything, except your general tone these past days/weeks/months. Wow.

Megalodon2.0
11-27-2014, 02:58 AM
Nor yours. Geez....
You're right. Now recall that I'm not the one telling YOU to "give it a rest." The fact that the $395 pricing kind of blows your "resellers must have the lowest price" makes your assertions... wrong.


I'd say, as would a whole lot of people here, that our respective choice of avatars says more about who we are than just about anything, except your general tone these past days/weeks/months. Wow.
Interestingly enough, my wife and I rescue cats. We currently have 14. And appearances are nearly always deceptive. You of course can choose to believe what you want to believe. I could also say that choosing a cat avatar means other things than you think it does. ;)

geo_n
11-27-2014, 03:38 AM
so are lw 10 licenses needed to be upgraded twice?

Shabazzy
11-27-2014, 04:35 AM
...and the post VAT price is?

How about when you add in the 35% off coupon for Liberty3D products?

With VAT added the LW3DG price comes to around 300 GBP. But the extra discount offered by Liberty3D is valid for just 1 year and only on Liberty3D products and I'm not sure, but I don't think LightWave would be classified as one of their products. And even if it was, I doubt you could use it on LW2015 because I'd say that you would get that discount once you'd made your initial purchase on LW2015. And I seriously doubt there will be a new LW release within the next 12 months that could take advantage of the extra discount.

In the UK however, businesses can claim back the VAT on business purchases.

Megalodon2.0
11-27-2014, 02:51 PM
so are lw 10 licenses needed to be upgraded twice?

If you're on the HC membership and want to keep the five upgrade "special" pricing, then YES, you MUST upgrade to LW11 and then buy the upgrade to LW2015.

Right now 1st tier (initial HC members) pay the $395 upgrade price while 2nd tier members pay $495. And currently the regular upgrade price is a more reasonable $495 instead of previous $695 - so 2nd tier HC members will be paying the same price as everyone else. It's only if the upgrade price increases that you'll again benefit from HC membership - if you're a 2nd tier member paying $495. Does that answer your question - or are you more confused? ;)

Tranimatronic
11-27-2014, 03:31 PM
...OR you can buy the upgrade from liberty3d at $449, but I have no idea how that effects your locked in specialness.
Of course this is only IF you decide lightwave2015 is worth upgrading TO.

I guess if you decide NO then you lose all specialness in newtek's eyes. (but I'm sure your mom will still think you are special)

Shabazzy
11-27-2014, 03:54 PM
... (but I'm sure your mom will still think you are special)

You don't know my mum :(

Megalodon2.0
11-27-2014, 04:53 PM
...OR you can buy the upgrade from liberty3d at $449, but I have no idea how that effects your locked in specialness.

I would think that it wouldn't make a difference since it IS an official upgrade AND Newtek does get the money. Do resellers for LW have territories they must abide by?

Markc
11-30-2014, 06:05 AM
Have contacted Support about my upgrade (shows $495........:cursin:).
I will probably have to wait till Monday to hear back.

Kryslin
11-30-2014, 11:55 AM
Huh. I was a post charter HC member... and I paid $395 for my upgrade, not $495.

I think LW3DG has the same problem we do at my day job - there is a young lady working in the office - Ms. Communication - and they can't get rid of her, no matter how hard they try... :)

Cageman
11-30-2014, 01:36 PM
Nor yours. Geez....

I'd say, as would a whole lot of people here, that our respective choice of avatars says more about who we are than just about anything, except your general tone these past days/weeks/months. Wow.

I am a Sith Lord! *moahahahahaha* :D

Chris S. (Fez)
12-24-2014, 06:57 PM
Impulse Xmas eve buy blown...I am a charter member and the upgrade is $495 instead of $395. Clicking on the upgrade button right in My Account and the total is still $495.

Am I doing something wrong?

BokadCastle
12-24-2014, 07:16 PM
Impulse Xmas eve buy blown...I am a charter member and the upgrade is $495 instead of $395. Clicking on the upgrade button right in My Account and the total is still $495.

Am I doing something wrong?

possibly...do you have LW 10? ...because CS asked me, before giving me the $395 upgrade.

Chris S. (Fez)
12-24-2014, 08:45 PM
Thanks. Just checked and my account does indeed show 8, 9, 10, 11. Guess I'll give em a call sometime to sort it out.

BokadCastle
12-24-2014, 09:07 PM
Thanks. Just checked and my account does indeed show 8, 9, 10, 11. Guess I'll give em a call sometime to sort it out.

You'll need your Licence numbers. Sounds like you do.
Cheers.

jeric_synergy
12-25-2014, 10:18 AM
Impulse Xmas eve buy blown...I am a charter member and the upgrade is $495 instead of $395. Clicking on the upgrade button right in My Account and the total is still $495.
Am I doing something wrong?
On most of the pages for me it listed the $495 price, but when I clicked the button on my account page, the final page before buying correctly listed it at $395. --iow, the page where you enter your CC numbers.

So, give that a whirl and see if it doesn't work-- you're safe until you hit the CONFIRM button, right?

Merry Christmas.

Bytehawk
12-25-2014, 11:58 AM
the upgrade price for me is about 579 dollars and not the 395 $ I paid for the previous upgrade. Last time I paid directly in the US, now I 'm forced to use a german company instead of the US one??????

spherical
12-25-2014, 03:26 PM
You can buy through Liberty 3D (http://www.liberty3d.com/2014/11/attn-euuk-lightwave-users-looking-to-upgrade-to-lw-2015/) for a better deal.

Bytehawk
12-29-2014, 09:11 AM
Would I be able to get the no vat price if I enter the company's vat number I work for? What are the consequences of doing that?

Markc
12-29-2014, 10:19 AM
If you buy from Liberty 3D you just don't get charged the extra (VAT).

Shabazzy
12-29-2014, 03:03 PM
Would I be able to get the no vat price if I enter the company's vat number I work for? What are the consequences of doing that?

Be careful though, if your company normally claims back the VAT on their business purchases, you should check to see if the price without VAT from a NT reseller in Europe is cheaper than the Liberty3D selling price.

You may find that you get a better deal if you buy it from a NT reseller and then claim back the VAT.

Bytehawk
12-30-2014, 02:53 AM
Thanks guys for the kind reply
I'll look into that option

Shabazzy
01-11-2015, 08:42 PM
I just found out that the Liberty3D deal may have to add VAT to LW2015 after all when sold to Europeans. This is due to a new EU policy that came into effect on the 1st Jan 2015 which affects digital products (music, images, ebooks, software, etc) that are sold to consumers by businesses of any scale; from freelancers to corporations.

Called VAT Mini One Stop Shop (VATMOSS) it forces anyone who sells their products electronically to charge VAT at the rate set by the EU country they sell to. It doesn't matter what country you're selling from, you have to charge VAT and give it to the government of EU country being sold to.

This is th EU's response to the tax avoidance scandals that's been in the press that were/are perpetrated by the likes of Google, Starbucks, Amazon et al and as you'll no doubt expect, it's a very badly thought out policy and has thrown up much dissent by small and micro business digital creatives from around the world who are coming together to petition this new law.

I recommend reading about it in this Digital Arts article:
VAT MOSS: the facts - updated with new info from the UK government (http://www.digitalartsonline.co.uk/news/creative-business/vat-moss-facts-updated-january-6-2015/)

The fallout so far:
More 200 small firms quit days new European VAT rules originally aimed curbing tax dodging web giants (http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/smallbusiness/article-2904856/More-200-small-firms-quit-days-new-European-VAT-rules-originally-aimed-curbing-tax-dodging-web-giants.html#ixzz3OVJ4Iz2V)

Also, you can find the petition site for the unilateral suspension of VATMOSS here:
Pierre Moscovici a unilateral suspension of the introduction of the new eu vat laws for micro businesses and sole traders (https://www.change.org/p/pierre-moscovici-a-unilateral-suspension-of-the-introduction-of-the-new-eu-vat-laws-for-micro-businesses-and-sole-traders)

spherical
01-11-2015, 10:57 PM
If I'm reading this correctly, I sell a product, have to collect the VAT, even though the sale took place outside the EU, and then have to find some way to send the money to some government tax collector in another country?

Megalodon2.0
01-12-2015, 12:41 AM
If I'm reading this correctly, I sell a product, have to collect the VAT, even though the sale took place outside the EU, and then have to find some way to send the money to some government tax collector in another country?

I can't see this working too well and there will most likely be MANY circumventing this... new rule. Looks like there are lunatic politicians everywhere. :screwy:

lightscape
01-12-2015, 12:55 AM
There's a long discussion here and some tips
http://community.thefoundry.co.uk/discussion/topic.aspx?f=4&t=95135

Will kill small business

Shabazzy
01-12-2015, 01:17 AM
If I'm reading this correctly, I sell a product, have to collect the VAT, even though the sale took place outside the EU, and then have to find some way to send the money to some government tax collector in another country?

If you operate a business and sell digital goods, any sales you do with a consumer (non business) customer based in the E.U. will require you to charge, collect and send the VAT to that country's government where your customer is based no matter how big or small your business is, effective from 1st Jan 2015.

And considering there are 28 members of the E.U., that means registering your business with all 28 nation's respective tax offices and understanding their individual tax laws and VAT rates, not to mention understanding the 28 different languages in order to fill out the required paperwork.

If you've ever had to deal with the Tax Man in your own country can you imagine dealing 28 foreign ones?

You couldn't make this up could you?

Bytehawk
01-12-2015, 02:51 AM
Indeed. I read up on that law after the astonishment of having to pay almost double the amount I paid before. (The dollar to Euro rate has always been favorable up to this point)

This applies to images an video too.

JohnMarchant
01-12-2015, 04:28 AM
Its another ill thought out law from Eurocrats. Funny thing is the Juncker an arch Eurocrat was one of the architects of this and it was him when he was running Luxembourg that came up with creative ways for big companies to avoid tax.

As usual its the small businesses that feel the brunt of it, but then again despite their claims the EU has never been about small businesses, just about red tape and laws for everything.

Sorry for rant but EU makes my blood boil. The main reason why me and my Wife left the UK and EU, she has 2 small businesses which are both UK companies and she is considering closing them and reopening where we are now. Funnily she used to work for the EU and has nothing nice to say about them or their socialist pipe dream.

Megalodon2.0
01-12-2015, 04:42 AM
Its another ill thought out law from Eurocrats. Funny thing is the Juncker an arch Eurocrat was one of the architects of this and it was him when he was running Luxembourg that came up with creative ways for big companies to avoid tax.

As usual its the small businesses that feel the brunt of it, but then again despite their claims the EU has never been about small businesses, just about red tape and laws for everything.

Sorry for rant but EU makes my blood boil. The main reason why me and my Wife left the UK and EU, she has 2 small businesses which are both UK companies and she is considering closing them and reopening where we are now. Funnily she used to work for the EU and has nothing nice to say about them or their socialist pipe dream.

You're not alone. The US is pretty much identical - screw the small business and more tax breaks for the corporations. I wonder how detrimental this will be for companies like LIberty3D and other similar small companies? It will just add (IMO) more red tape and BS that will cost more time and money for ALL small businesses.

Snosrap
01-12-2015, 08:22 PM
You're not alone. The US is pretty much identical Yep, this is the first time that I've ever had to pay a sales tax on an LW upgrade.

OnlineRender
01-13-2015, 11:07 AM
the new EU laws regarding digital downloads are complete ***t, I have lawyer looking over things atm and even she does not know the full extent , however there is work around apparently which is legal ...

this trumps the cookie law --- irony being you need to use in order to give this info

JohnMarchant
01-13-2015, 11:39 AM
Apparently my wife say that if you offer email or skype support almost in the form of education you can get around it, which is what she does anyway.

roboman
01-13-2015, 12:03 PM
It's an interesting topic with arguments going many ways. The main one being where the transaction took place and what countries laws apply. It's been a mostly settled, with mail order, that the seller has to live under any laws where it does business, IE if they have a physical location in a state (usa) then they must collect taxes for that state. If the business doesn't have a physical location in that state, then the buyer is in most cases legally required to notify their own state of the purchase and send the money to the state and maybe even local government. No one ever does and they get stuff tax free. Then the bbs's came along, and later the internet. DA's wanted to stomp out porn and gambling, States and towns wanted to collect taxes. So the question of where the transaction took place came up and the (usa) courts have ruled that the transaction took place at the sellers location, at the buyers location or even at the location that some server that handled data is located... No good answer yet in the USA. But most states do already have laws on the books that demand you pay them taxes for items, but only enforce it of high dollar items. Congress has made it more complex with some of the internet laws they have passed that assume stuff bought from another state are tax free and not that the customer is obligated to send the tax to the state and local government. Basically it gets down to states in the US not being permitted to enforce their local laws outside their own state or local town/city/county, so they need to play games about where the transaction took place....

I'm in California, in the USA, and am fairly sure the law here has always required me to send in tax money to California on any thing I've bought outside the state. Nobody does, except on high dollar items, and I don't think the state cared, until lately when the budgets got tighter and they realized they were missing out on lots of money they could grab. Basically the state owns you and can enforce it's rules on you, even outside the state, but can't enforce it's rules on people or companies owned by other states :)

Megalodon2.0
01-13-2015, 12:15 PM
Here in Virginia last year - I believe it was 2013 - Amazon.com started collecting Virginia sales tax. Apparently small businesses here in VA wanted to be on an "equal footing" saying that many people would look at what they sold and then went online to buy it avoiding the sales tax. So now it's up to Amazon to collect sales tax and send it to the state. So in essence this is exactly like VAT - unless I'm reading how this works wrongly. I'm sure that large businesses have little problem with this, but smaller businesses operate on MUCH smaller budgets and any addition of any red tape bites into their bottom line significantly - not to mention the immense amount of headache this will cause. Other online vendors (but not all) have followed suit charging VA tax.

And yes, before this collecting of taxes from internet purchases, we were supposed to send in the sales tax ourselves to our state. As roboman said though... most never did. I'm sure that anyone working at the state office would shake their head every time they received a payment for taxes like this wondering WHY anyone would send this in.

Shabazzy
01-13-2015, 12:16 PM
Richard Kyosaki's rich dad was right when he said that 'politicians are the worst people to have in charge of money'.

hazmat777
01-13-2015, 12:33 PM
Richard Kyosaki's rich dad was right when he said that 'politicians are the worst people to have in charge of money'.

Money is just an exchange of power and that's all politicians are interested in...power. One spends time working and practicing a craft or service and in exchange for your power you get some paper that you can use to exchange for someone elses's power, time and energy. Your energy is what is being bought by the ones who have more power.

Hope this didn't come across as too "out there" but I think it rings true for most people that think about it.