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mborge
11-24-2014, 11:22 AM
So FYI, I just received a notice that I'll need to upgrade from LW10 if I wish to continue my HardCore discount.

Also, it stated that they're offering a 30 day grace period.
I interpret this to mean I have 30 days from the launch of LW12 in which to make up my mind. (That's appreciated.)
Also, the email warned that there's no "guarantee" prices won't go up.

I'm glad that NewTek is following up.

However, I have mixed feelings for 2 reasons:

1. I've gotten used to being able to skip a release with Modo. (I'm still on 701 there.)

2. (And this is my real gripe) I've witnessed LW updates being offered to people that weren't HardCore for discounts while I got nothing special. (I'm at $495 post charter.)

So, here's my opinion:

NewTek needs users badly. (This forum is pretty darn quiet compared to days gone by.)

Price increases may be necessary, maybe even deserved, but, it's not going to help them against very affordable competition.
Heck even Blender is becoming useful.

I really hope that LW12 is all it can be and it generates all the income they need to thrive.
Thus, for whatever it's worth, I would recommend LW makes a heck of an offer to it's existing HCore user base this Christmas because, unless they're about to launch a MUST HAVE app, they're going to suffer in the competition.
That's my two cents anyways.

I'd like to continue supporting LW and even return to using it as my go to app but, there's a lot of options and justification nowadays for not doing that.

hrgiger
11-24-2014, 11:52 AM
well in NT's defense, they've been more then generous by offering a discount for 5 releases of LightWave which will still be several years in the future. They also eliminted the 60 day grace period they used to have where you had to upgrade within 60 days of a new release to keep the discount. And its a loyalty discount for those users who wish to keep their versions of LW current for a discounted price.

Modo only lets you skip upgrade, just like in this case. which means at most, you have two years before you would have to upgrade your Modo where its been over 4 years people have had to decide if they want to keep their discount pricing for LightWave.

paulk
11-24-2014, 12:06 PM
You more likely have 30 days to upgrade to LW 11.x, not 30 days to wait after LW 12 is released.

The whole point of the HardCore discount was to encourage LWers to stay current by offering a substantial discount for each version release. Pretty sweet deal, since all the .X upgrades were free. It was also made clear the discount would vanish as dew in the morning sun if you skipped a version upgrade.

I also am ticked when some combo package with discounts is offered to get me to upgrade to the version I already have, so I can't get the package. If this brings in non-LWers or entices somebody with an older version of LW (hint, hint) to upgrade, fine.

It's your call, but I would not assume (and you know what THAT does!) LW12 is just over the horizon and you will get the Hard Core discount for upgrading from LW10 to LW12.

calilifestyle
11-24-2014, 12:12 PM
well in NT's defense, they've been more then generous by offering a discount for 5 releases of LightWave which will still be several years in the future. They also eliminted the 60 day grace period they used to have where you had to upgrade within 60 days of a new release to keep the discount. And its a loyalty discount for those users who wish to keep their versions of LW current for a discounted price.

Modo only lets you skip upgrade, just like in this case. which means at most, you have two years before you would have to upgrade your Modo where its been over 4 years people have had to decide if they want to keep their discount pricing for LightWave.

Not true with Modo. I upgrade to 601 from 103.. So that's like what 6 years..

bobakabob
11-24-2014, 12:18 PM
Agree with hrgiger's post. IMHO the pricing of Lightwave has always been fair and economical and this is a major strength of the software comparative to other commercial suites. The discount for Core investors was also a very good option which I gladly subscribed to. As someone who uses all manner of 3d software these days I'd feel as if a limb was cut off if I couldn't use LW in my pipeline. VPR alone puts other renderers to shame and has sped up my workflow incredibly as an essential tool for staging and lighting. The animation tools are getting better and better and pro quality plugins such as RHiggit and LWCAD are available at very reasonable prices. The endless speculation about the underdog of 3d's future will go on but overall it's been a great journey from 5.5 to 11. Good to hear from hrgiger there's potentially another 7 years of discounts.

Nicolas Jordan
11-24-2014, 12:37 PM
Sounds like an official announcement about Lightwave 12 is not far away.

ivanze
11-24-2014, 12:45 PM
Maybe the release is 12/12.

hrgiger
11-24-2014, 01:00 PM
Not true with Modo. I upgrade to 601 from 103.. So that's like what 6 years..

that used to be the case. Not so with The Foundry now at the wheel.

souzou
11-24-2014, 01:02 PM
LW3d website has been updated...

prometheus
11-24-2014, 01:10 PM
yepp..2015, as I thought is should be.
https://www.lightwave3d.com/news/article/lightwave-2015-unveiled-new-pricing-announced/

souzou
11-24-2014, 01:13 PM
yepp..2015, as I thought is should be.
https://www.lightwave3d.com/news/article/lightwave-2015-unveiled-new-pricing-announced/

It says 'available now'

paulk
11-24-2014, 01:30 PM
Apparently, NT decided to drop version numbers in favor of "model year", like when you can buy a 2015 automobile in November 2014.

Here's hoping the docs are good . . .

BokadCastle
11-24-2014, 01:40 PM
I saw no mention of the $395 Hardcore discount that I'm on.

Let me re-read.

50one
11-24-2014, 01:42 PM
Looks good! will update, dynamic bones seems nice and will be useful for sure.

...not that I'm complaining but a lot of folks were counting on getting the 11.7 with bug fixes.

Happy anyway.

S

MarcusM
11-24-2014, 01:43 PM
This is not LightWave 12, it is LightWave 2015 :)

lardbros
11-24-2014, 01:52 PM
Fully rewritten docs too! Nice work Newtek!! Loving the release video... Very professional indeed! Bought it! Yay!

MarcusM
11-24-2014, 02:23 PM
I would like to have more explained integration with Unity 5 and what features are implemented (it is in new doc) in new FBX exprter from FBX 2015? Pls ;] Hmm in Demo, is only 2014 FBX version.

spherical
11-24-2014, 03:30 PM
new pricing: $995 (USD) for a full license and $495 (USD) to upgrade from LightWave 11.x or earlier.

So those of us who bought into the Charter at the first deadline get $100 off and those who bought in before the final deadline get zip. Now, everyone gets the second Charter deal. The deal has evaporated. Seems to me that if the entire price structure has been lowered, that Charter members of both types should get something extra off for buying in when NewTek was asking for an infusion of cash. At least make the Charter savings proportional to the new pricing as it was proportional to the old. Or have I missed an announcement?

hrgiger
11-24-2014, 03:44 PM
So those of us who bought into the Charter at the first deadline get $100 off and those who bought in before the final deadline get zip. Now, everyone gets the second Charter deal. The deal has evaporated. Seems to me that if the entire price structure has been lowered, that Charter members of both types should get something extra off for buying in when NewTek was asking for an infusion of cash. At least make the Charter savings proportional to the new pricing as it was proportional to the old. Or have I missed an announcement?

I would agree. Charter pricing was a loyalty discount for keeping current with LW releases after CORE. Now I feel that loyalty pricing has been devalued.

CaptainMarlowe
11-24-2014, 03:46 PM
Not sure. I'm from the second HC and it seems in my account that the upgrade price is now 395 dollars (316€, not counting the VAT) instead of 495.

COBRASoft
11-24-2014, 04:12 PM
^^ Same price I paid, but I'm a first HC.

This doesn't seem fair to me LW3DG...

Snosrap
11-24-2014, 04:36 PM
You think thats bad - what about those suckers who bit on Rob's e-mail over the weekend who upgraded to 11 so they could keep their HC pricing for LW12. :)

jwiede
11-24-2014, 04:51 PM
Not sure. I'm from the second HC and it seems in my account that the upgrade price is now 395 dollars (316€, not counting the VAT) instead of 495.

Nope, I'm in the second "post-Charter" category and my upgrade price using the button on my account page is $495 (in other words, no discount whatsoever). I'm quite upset that LW3DG cannot even be bothered to even acknowledge the situation w.r.t. the discounts.

probiner
11-24-2014, 04:52 PM
Wrong thread.

jwiede
11-24-2014, 04:55 PM
You think thats bad - what about those suckers who bit on Rob's e-mail over the weekend who upgraded to 11 so they could keep their HC pricing for LW12. :)

Yeah, the letter sent to HC members still on LW10.x was particularly offensive in light of the LW12 price change (esp. w.r.t. post-Charter HC members).

lardbros
11-24-2014, 05:13 PM
My Hardcore charter price was cheaper... It was 295, seemed like a great deal to me! My work license said post charter and was also the same price.

snsmoore
11-24-2014, 05:14 PM
Just Upgraded! (Mine showed the discounted price.) But I think I jumped on the 1st charter deal, probably within days of its availability.

GregMalick
11-24-2014, 05:14 PM
Couple things:

I don't feel my $395 upgrade was de-valued. I got exactly waht I was promised.

Second: Companies usually give automatic upgrades to those people who upgraded within a month.
I think you'll hear something from NT soon about a free upgrade to 2015 (if you bought within the last month).

Of Course I have no special insight - it's just a suspicion.

kfinla
11-24-2014, 05:15 PM
I'm also pretty curious what this means for future feature development. If we will see a LW 2015.x with features not just bug fixes, or if features don't come till LW 2016 or 2017 (and obviously for another $395-$495). And then of course is LW on a 12 month release cycle?

* PS I also agree the charter discounts need to drop to at least $295 and $395 for people to even consider not letting them lapse.

lardbros
11-24-2014, 05:23 PM
Couple things:

I don't feel my $395 upgrade was de-valued. I got exactly waht I was promised.

Second: Companies usually give automatic upgrades to those people who upgraded within a month.
I think you'll hear something from NT soon about a free upgrade to 2015 (if you bought within the last month).

Of Course I have no special insight - it's just a suspicion.

They already said this... if people have upgraded within the last 30 days, they get it free anyway. Seems fair to me!
If you're unlucky and upgraded on day 31 it would be a bit of a sad day though!

extra
11-24-2014, 05:29 PM
I want to buy American! I'm never gonna pay 19% german VAT! Leave me worry about my local tax and customs.

allabulle
11-24-2014, 05:44 PM
Charter is irrelevant now, then. A few bucks won't make me upgrade to keep it. I can buy other things too and pay a bit more at a later stage if I want to upgrade LightWave. That is if they don't change the usual upgrading scheme along the product naming. It seems not, though.

So I'm trying the release now; but not upgrading until I see how does it work and if I really need what's new.

Megalodon2.0
11-24-2014, 06:16 PM
They already said this... if people have upgraded within the last 30 days, they get it free anyway. Seems fair to me!
If you're unlucky and upgraded on day 31 it would be a bit of a sad day though!

However I don't think this included Hardcore membership since you are not allowed to skip ANY upgrades in order to keep your membership pricing. Therefore if you want to keep your "5 upgrade pricing" you are required to purchase ALL upgrades - not skip. At least that's my understanding.

robpowers3d
11-24-2014, 06:40 PM
So those of us who bought into the Charter at the first deadline get $100 off and those who bought in before the final deadline get zip. Now, everyone gets the second Charter deal. The deal has evaporated. Seems to me that if the entire price structure has been lowered, that Charter members of both types should get something extra off for buying in when NewTek was asking for an infusion of cash. At least make the Charter savings proportional to the new pricing as it was proportional to the old. Or have I missed an announcement?

I'll post this here as well because it applies to your quesiton:

If you are in Post Charter it is currently the same upgrade price with the pricing offered at this launch but with your HardCore post charter price guarantee you have no concerns about the price changing at any point for the period of your 5 upgrades. In fact we just came out of a period where the price for upgrades was $695 which HardCORE members were not affected by at all.

Having locked pricing is a benefit in my opinion but it is up to you to determine if you find it to be something that you wish to continue. As far as I am aware the HardCORE pricing guarantee did not insure that your post charter pricing level would always be less than the regular pricing although for the charter members it is because they receive such a large discount.

I've also softened the policy by offering a 30 day grace period for those that have not yet upgraded to the 11.x cycle at the time of the 2015 release as the policy states that those HardCORE memberships would expire upon release of the next paid upgrade.

robpowers3d
11-24-2014, 06:46 PM
However I don't think this included Hardcore membership since you are not allowed to skip ANY upgrades in order to keep your membership pricing. Therefore if you want to keep your "5 upgrade pricing" you are required to purchase ALL upgrades - not skip. At least that's my understanding.

That is correct and is detailed in the HardCore guidelines and mentioned numerous times. Upgrading to each paid upgrade version is a requirement to maintain HardCORE. There has been an extremely long window of time to upgrade to 11.x and since the first communications we inlcuded gentle warnings to not wait too late because of this exact reason.

lwaddict
11-24-2014, 06:49 PM
Looking it over and although there are some enhancements...
I don't see any reason to upgrade.

I've already got Nevron which, IMO, was a dud.
Don't get me started on Chronosculpt...
And was there when HardCore was a version of Lightwave and not just a membership group.

I will probably upgrade eventually... heck, I've been a Lightwave user since 5.5...
but currently, in the Bay Area (CA, USA), you'd be hard pressed to get a job without knowing "the other" programs out there.
Budget has to go in that direction for now.

And for what it's worth... I love that Lightwave's latest iteration will help us match perspective to a still image...
It's 2015, this is an animation package... Hello? <cough Camera Tracking?> <cough>

robpowers3d
11-24-2014, 06:58 PM
Looking it over and although there are some enhancements...
I don't see any reason to upgrade.

I've already got Nevron which, IMO, was a dud.
Don't get me started on Chronosculpt...
And was there when HardCore was a version of Lightwave and not just a membership group.

I will probably upgrade eventually... heck, I've been a Lightwave user since 5.5...
but currently, in the Bay Area (CA, USA), you'd be hard pressed to get a job without knowing "the other" programs out there.
Budget has to go in that direction for now.

And for what it's worth... I love that Lightwave's latest iteration will help us match perspective to a still image...
It's 2015, this is an animation package... Hello? <cough Camera Tracking?> <cough>

Hi lwaddict,
I'm similar to your involvement as far as being a paying HardCORE charter member and using LightWave since the earliest days. For sure every user has to make the right choices for themselves but we are seeing many of our LightWave artists in the Burbank / Los Angeles area are employed more than not.

geo_n
11-24-2014, 09:45 PM
Does this mean lw 10 hardcore members have to be upgraded twice?

Surrealist.
11-24-2014, 11:31 PM
This release is pretty much what I expected. Gradually adding more features and enhancing what is there. (as well as promised under-the- hood stuff) Only so many hours in the day.

One of my concerns was that you would leave Bullet as is and move on. No constraints was a deal breaker for me on the first release. So I am glad you have continued to enhance the areas of the program that were introduced with LW 11.

My only other real complaint is that you don't talk here more in between. Granted in your defense, there seems not much to talk about given what the release had. I mean at least you have done what you said you'd do, and it has been consistent.

But I really think you need to revisit the silent treatment issue. It is not a good idea IMHO.

As for 12, nothing there yet to get me reaching for my card, but it does seem like a solid release and it is good to see steady progress which is pretty much all anyone can expect.

I just think people need more interaction and a constant reminder of this fact.

mborge
11-24-2014, 11:32 PM
So I watched the LW 2015 video and it looks cool but, I don't really see any Modeler love etc.

Also, once again as I said, there's no real price incentive for me having remained w/ 10.

I think this is my departure point as I spend more time sculpting and modeling nowadays.

Can we still sell our LW licenses? - I can't remember if they changed that but, I sort of remember something about it in an email.

ernpchan
11-24-2014, 11:51 PM
So I watched the LW 2015 video and it looks cool but, I don't really see any Modeler love etc.

Also, once again as I said, there's no real price incentive for me having remained w/ 10.

I think this is my departure point as I spend more time sculpting and modeling nowadays.

Can we still sell our LW licenses? - I can't remember if they changed that but, I sort of remember something about it in an email.

You can. There is a processing fee now. You could pass that on to the new buyer.

jeric_synergy
11-25-2014, 12:10 AM
And for what it's worth... I love that Lightwave's latest iteration will help us match perspective to a still image...
It's 2015, this is an animation package... Hello? <cough Camera Tracking?> <cough>
The verbiage used is:

Whether matching plates or simply placing objects into photographs, matching the camera position and rotation is a tedious process. With the new Match Perspective tool this chore is now a breeze. Using simple on-screen gizmos to feed information to the Match Solver means you can sync your LightWave camera to an original photo or plate quickly.
While the video is a little ambiguous, it seems to be matching a tilting camera. The use of 'plate' versus 'still' seems to indicate that more than just STILLS are addressed.

JohnMarchant
11-25-2014, 01:09 AM
I like some of the new features especially bullet updates but for me i want to see things that have been there for some time addressed. HV and to a lesser extent particles could do with some love. Text tools and modeler in general seem to have had very little TLC. Did Modeler get some hydra, can we handle bigger models without it slowing to a crawl. The tools we have need integrating more, many tools do similar jobs, much more interactivity needed.

I think i will wait a bit, i want to see what the requirements for LWCAD 5 are, beta should be around Christmas time last time i spoke to Viktor. If LWCAD 5 works well with LW 11.6.3 i may not upgrade to 2015, well not right away as there is not allot there for me apart from bullet enhancements.

I really need to spend some time learning Houdini Indie and Blender and i think that's where my time needs to be spent now.

mborge
11-25-2014, 09:33 AM
Thanks ernpchan that helped me remember and track down the $100 dollar transfer fee, so now my LW10.1 is up for sale in the "For Sale" thread:

http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?144564-LW-10-1-Single-License-for-sale

Would save some money for anyone looking at a new seat of LW2015.

kopperdrake
11-25-2014, 09:52 AM
My Hardcore charter price was cheaper... It was 295, seemed like a great deal to me! My work license said post charter and was also the same price.

Weird - I have one Charter and one Post Charter, and together they came to 570, minus VAT. With EU Vat they would have been an extra 19% on. I can't remember how much the Post Charter was, but the Charter was 299, including VAT, so the Post Charter must have been around 380, including EU VAT.

It's all a bit odd, but still much of a muchness - I'm just waiting for Customer Support to get back to me as I can only download one license key - the one attached to the Post Charter Product ID - the key attached to my Charter Product ID just states I'm trying to upgrade a product already upgraded. I'm sure they'll sort it out in due course, just chaping at the bit as the key that works is for Gaz sitting next to me, smug bugger!

kfinla
11-25-2014, 10:41 AM
Well all I can do is hold onto my money and wait and see what happens. I don't need to take any action for a year, at which time I would likely let things lapse and skip LW12. Not knowing if the cost of ownership of a current build of LW has doubled or tripled due to a 12 month release schedule. And not knowing if there will be any more features in LW 2015.x releases stops me dead in my tracks. I don't know what I am buying into now. Thats the downside to changing the naming convention of the product, it breaks any expectation of past behaviour. I know there is a saying with software to buy what you need and what it does today, not tomorrow. But I have always supported LW knowing that I will get even more than what is there now.

kopperdrake
11-25-2014, 11:27 AM
It's all a bit odd, but still much of a muchness - I'm just waiting for Customer Support to get back to me as I can only download one license key - the one attached to the Post Charter Product ID - the key attached to my Charter Product ID just states I'm trying to upgrade a product already upgraded. I'm sure they'll sort it out in due course, just chaping at the bit as the key that works is for Gaz sitting next to me, smug bugger!

And 1.5 hours later it's sorted - thanks guys :thumbsup: Time to play...

Megalodon2.0
11-25-2014, 02:47 PM
Does this mean lw 10 hardcore members have to be upgraded twice?

Yes. That's pretty much exactly what Rob said. I wanted to skip LW10 due to it's lackluster upgrade look and only .1 development cycle. Nope. In order to keep HC membership I HAD to keep LW10 and spend that money.

IMO, I don't see the LW upgrade pricing going higher in the future so if I were still a HC member right now on LW10 I'd not bother upgrading to LW11 and either skip to LW2015 or wait. HC membership has lost much of the glitz it had when upgrade pricing was $695. And I believe that there are only two [edit - there are probably three] more upgrades (of the five) where the membership comes into play. Previous to the CORE and LW10 debacle, I would have spent the money and supported NT without question. Now, they have to show me it's worth it - and paying twice for an upgrade right now is not worth it.

I should also add that I think LW2015 is a decent update - but not worth double the upgrade price if you are on LW10 and want to keep your HC membership - IMO.

alexs3d
11-26-2014, 06:13 AM
i am also a hardcore member from the very first beginning, since core.

i pay 395 dollar, cause i am in europe i have to pay tax, so i pay about 470 dollar, 395 dollar + tax.

hope i could help to solve some confusion :)

djlithium
11-26-2014, 08:42 AM
Be advised EU/UK users looking to upgrade. Because Liberty3d.com is based out of Canada, we may be able to save you on VAT charges. Check out our prices here.

http://www.liberty3d.com/store/the-lightwave-group/

djlithium
11-26-2014, 08:50 AM
Did a post about it on L3D. We have a special offer right now that even the LWG can't match. http://www.liberty3d.com/2014/11/attn-euuk-lightwave-users-looking-to-upgrade-to-lw-2015/

Skonk
11-26-2014, 10:45 AM
How long are you likely to have this pricing Kat?

djlithium
11-26-2014, 11:23 AM
How long are you likely to have this pricing Kat?

Indefinitely. Unless the LWG changes the price again, this is where things are at. We've been offering the 35% off coupon to anyone who purchases a LW seat or upgrade from us for some time now and we will continue to so do.

lardbros
11-26-2014, 05:07 PM
Be advised EU/UK users looking to upgrade. Because Liberty3d.com is based out of Canada, we may be able to save you on VAT charges. Check out our prices here.

http://www.liberty3d.com/store/the-lightwave-group/

DAMN... missed this deal! What a shame :(
Nice offer there though Kat! Good work.

Tranimatronic
11-26-2014, 05:44 PM
Hold on a second - I can buy the upgrade CHEAPER at liberty3d than I can with my post charter membership?
SERIOUSLY ? are you TRYING to alienate your userbase ?

3djock
11-26-2014, 06:44 PM
Hold on a second - I can buy the upgrade CHEAPER at liberty3d than I can with my post charter membership?
SERIOUSLY ? are you TRYING to alienate your userbase ?
Yep I noticed that too. So what was the point in being a hardcore member or charter member second round? No benefits that I could see unless you bought in at the $395 first round price..:cursin::cursin::cursin::cursin::cursin:

allabulle
11-27-2014, 02:50 AM
Well, if prices go up in the coming years it could still be relevant. Right now, it's not that significant, I agree.

kfinla
11-28-2014, 06:20 AM
Even though I often go months and on occasion years between firing up LW, ownership has been cheap enough (maybe $100 a year?) for me to keep up with current releases. If they are now going to be asking $495 (i'd only owe 395 as a charter member) every 12 months, there is just not enough use/value anymore for me. The cost of ownership will have gone up 4x-5x.

I think its safe to say the cost of owning LW has at least doubled unless the next major release isn't till late 2017 which I doubt with the new naming scheme. If there is a paid upgrade every 12 months than it will be cheaper to buy a whole new seat every 3 years, than keep up each year.

erikals
11-28-2014, 07:35 AM
2015 - not worth double the upgrade price if you are on LW10 and want to keep your HC membership - IMO.

definitely, not complaining though. still a good deal when dropping out on HC.


If there is a paid upgrade every 12 months than it will be cheaper to buy a whole new seat every 3 years, than keep up each year.
be glad this ain't AutoDesk : :)

lardbros
11-28-2014, 10:56 AM
I can see the argument from both sides, having been a hobbyist and now doing this for a large company, but using LW at home too.

For a hobbyist, it's tough to justify the cost... there are many free tools out there, and they do a great job of fulfilling what LW offers... BUT even if you take on one paid for job, as a favour, or something, it pays for itself 10-fold.
Just one fairly complicated job I did recently, has paid for my personal upgrades of LightWave for more than the next 8 years. I think that's amazing!
I used to be all about the new features, and tools... but actually, I play with them when it's released, and gawp in amazement... but as long as it's stable, and I can get jobs out, I don't care :)

There is lots of room for improvement... and I'm sure it'll happen, but I love working with what I've got, and can see the future becoming even brighter!

Megalodon2.0
11-28-2014, 04:26 PM
be glad this ain't AutoDesk : :)

X 10!

This is one of the things that really makes Lightwave stand out - AND the fact that there is no forced rental is a huge deal. I hope LW3DG truly understands how much good will they generate with this sort of upgrade system in place. We have 11 seats (or thereabouts) of LW with most still stuck at 9.6 and two at 11. While for us the economy has been improving, it's been doing so VERY slowly. Knowing that I will be able to upgrade ALL of our seats at a reasonable upgrade price some time in the future - the same for ALL seats - is a big deal.