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erikals
11-23-2014, 06:03 AM
alright, it'd be nice to know what people think

are there only a selected few who would like more LWG interaction on the forums,
or just some, or many...

i have no idea, so thought i would do some free research


let the games begin...

hrgiger
11-23-2014, 10:40 AM
A little more interaction would be nice but I think just because LW cycles go so long. Modo seems to be on an annual release schedule so there is less need for them to communicate with users because at the most, they have to wait a year or so for software info. Yet they still communicate more anyway.

I think there is a misconception about what people are wanting. I dont expect road maps or clues about whats coming in future releases. Its totally fine and reasonable that LW3DG doesnt provide that.. What they should be encouraging though is a dialogue about where the software should go in the future. Put up a regular poll about possible directions the software could go in the future. Ask things like would this feature be useful to you. If such a feature were implemented, how would you like it to work? In terms pf priority, what things are most needed addressed in LW? Its like making fine adjustments in steering a massive oceanliner. As it stands now from the user standpoint, the software direction feels like you're on that ship and you open your eyes up once every 3 or 4 years and hope its going where you want it to.

vncnt
11-23-2014, 01:36 PM
The current level of interaction seems to worry others so I guess a little more interaction would be less stressful to many of us.

On the other hand, interaction during CORE was like feeding the lions now and then.

MAUROCOR
11-23-2014, 01:52 PM
The current level of interaction seems to worry others so I guess a little more interaction would be less stressful to many of us.

On the other hand, interaction during CORE was like feeding the lions now and then.

I remember interection during CORE time was massive!!! It was diferent. Actually that was the idea they sold us about being a Hardcore member, remember? To participate every step of the road.
I think what people are asking for is "some" interaction. Because letīs be honest, there is nothing right now.

mav3rick
11-23-2014, 02:06 PM
we need at least 5 more similar threads open in case LWG miss one of them..

cresshead
11-23-2014, 02:31 PM
maybe something will change soon.new year...new communication setup?

Surrealist.
11-23-2014, 02:46 PM
I voted, though, am I the only one who sees the dichotomy here?

Megalodon2.0
11-23-2014, 02:47 PM
maybe something will change soon.new year...new communication setup?

Hopefully you are right. Hopefully LW3DG realizes that complete silence is the wrong way to go. As ianr said in the other thread: "Maybe LW3DG should now see TOO FAR means both sides!" And this is true. They tried full interaction with CORE but I don't think they realized how chaotic and difficult it would be interacting on THAT level. So they went 180 degrees in the opposite direction after being stung - which was the wrong move. If they can learn from BOTH mistakes and revise their interaction with the userbase to more of a regular - i.e scheduled - conversation, then they will have restored my faith in the company. Quite honestly I don't expect them to learn since as I said before, they always seem to end up shooting themselves in the foot - their marketing is a PRIME example. But just as honestly, I would like to be proven wrong and see LW3DG move forward and learn how to deal with customers the right way. What is going on now is not the right way.

hrgiger
11-23-2014, 02:48 PM
I voted, though, am I the only one who sees the dichotomy here?

I really don't care, it doesn't matter to me.

Megalodon2.0
11-23-2014, 02:49 PM
I really don't care, it doesn't matter to me.

Though a little bit more interaction would be nice.

willin
11-23-2014, 02:54 PM
Don't Care.

I only want to hear from them when they have important news to reveal anything else just leads to a feeding frenzy of questions and a million more speculation.

Right now there are no more than 10 people on this forums that are always starting the same kind of speculative threads to see if they can get a reaction from developers, hopefully they won't bite because interaction with this crowd will never satisfied them, they will always want more and will use any interaction with the team to start all sorts of speculations.

Some of this folks by their own admittance don't even use lightwave or haven't for years, others are not on the latest version of the software and some are even lobbying for a free version of the software.

Just keep working on improving the products and when you have something that works then you can reveal it to us. If we like it and will help us with our work then we will buy it if not we won't.

Megalodon2.0
11-23-2014, 03:43 PM
Don't Care.
Obviously.

I only want to hear from them when they have important news to reveal anything else just leads to a feeding frenzy of questions and a million more speculation.

Right now there are no more than 10 people on this forums that are always starting the same kind of speculative threads to see if they can get a reaction from developers, hopefully they won't bite because interaction with this crowd will never satisfied them, they will always want more and will use any interaction with the team to start all sorts of speculations.
And yet... your group appears to be in the minority. MOST people want to see more interaction between LW3DG and the userbase. And let's be real, there will ALWAYS be speculation no matter how much/little they reveal. That's the nature of the beast. But you increase the wild speculation when you say nothing at all.

Some of this folks by their own admittance don't even use lightwave or haven't for years, others are not on the latest version of the software and some are even lobbying for a free version of the software.
I haven't seen this, so I doubt that there are a great many posts. And for those who aren't on the latest version, perhaps they are waiting and HOPING that LW will be what they want it to be. For those who aren't using LW anymore, LW3DG has left them behind because LW hasn't addressed their needs. I use LW5.5, 7, 9.6 and 11 EVERY DAY - Sunday thru Saturday - and started by using LW3 on the Amiga. I can speak about LW.

Just keep working on improving the products and when you have something that works then you can reveal it to us. If we like it and will help us with our work then we will buy it if not we won't.
Well... you are in the minority. Most want MORE interaction. Some of us use LW to make a living and want the software to move forward - and that doesn't mean the latest whiz-bang feature - that means seriously improving the underlying architecture.

vncnt
11-24-2014, 09:46 AM
To participate every step of the road.
And have 250 captains on one ship? Not very practical.

MAUROCOR
11-24-2014, 10:31 AM
And have 250 captains on one ship? Not very practical.

Well, it was not MY idea!

ivanze
11-24-2014, 01:02 PM
And have 250 captains on one ship? Not very practical.

lol

RebelHill
11-26-2014, 09:40 AM
Point 4 sums it all up pretty well... do the pitfalls described seem familiar??

http://www.entrepreneur.com/article/239935

4. Reducing ambiguity requires rich information and abundant information
Everyone in business realizes that ambiguity and uncertainty are common companions of the marketplace. Communication is one of the best ways to minimize the impact of that doubtful duo, but it’s important to recognize that not all manner of communications is created equally.

It’s common sense but when a business is in crisis or is facing an uncertain future, this is a useful lesson for leaders to understand. Leaders need to know that their employees need to hear from them face-to-face, because that form of communication provides the greatest mitigating impact on ambiguity.

Additional, the rich information needs to be coupled with an abundant stream of ongoing information to fend off uncertainty and ambiguity. Without that steady communication cadence, the information vacuum will be filled with rumor, speculation and innuendo. Regardless of the business situation, this combination lesson of rich and abundant information works well when it’s applied correctly.

stiff paper
11-26-2014, 11:11 AM
Well, I voted a bit more interaction would be nice, but what I really mean is a bit more interaction would be nice but I really don't care, whatever the LW3DG decides is the right approach is fine.

Unfortunately there's no way to tell from the survey as it's organized what the gradations within a bit more interaction would be nice are, but I suspect I'm not the only one who thinks yeah, a bit more would be okay, but whatever. A bit more... is definitely the mild answer here.

I'd be wary of drawing any very firm conclusions from these results. The questions aren't specific enough for that.

(Also, I was very strongly tempted to vote for the definitely not option, purely because I've strongly disliked almost all of the comments and every last bit of the attitude from the "You must talk to me immediately" brigade, but then I decided that would be almost as emotionally incontinent and entitled as the comments I've disliked. So, no.)

jasonwestmas
06-07-2015, 06:26 PM
I've been at the point where I really don't care anymore because the developers don't care. I don't hold it against them and I've always let the software speak for itself despite what has been said about it. They're just words after all. I can understand the need to know which direction the software is headed but I learned a long time ago not to put all my faith and energy into singular brand names and products. I just use what I can get my hands on and be smart about my limitations as a user so I can be more focused on my long term goals. Tools are just as important as being smart and creative but I have to remind myself to get lost in what I fell in love with in the first place and that is visual expression and communication, not "things".

When it makes sense to use lightwave, I still try to use it when I can. LW is still a really great hub for so many handy tools and 3rd party development. . . and I'd rather use VPR/Lightwave over mental ray and modo any day for quick graphical needs.

spherical
06-08-2015, 12:39 AM
Tools are just as important as being smart and creative but I have to remind myself to get lost in what I fell in love with in the first place and that is visual expression and communication, not "things".

Agreed wholeheartedly. I come from a traditional media background, where learning to use physical tools is part and parcel in the quality of the work produced. IOW, if you don't know how to mix colors and wield a brush or an airbrush to create an illusion, the image you end up with doesn't sell very well; in either sense of the word. To obtain a good result, it requires dexterity that must be practiced, in addition to the choice of tool—no matter how much that tool may have cost. Same goes for doing things in Real 3D. Running a 4-color sheet fed offset press, lathe, milling machine, water cooled grinders and saws, all the way to traditional hand tools to work wood, metal, plastic and glass. If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail. You also have more time on your hands to complain about the tool you have, how it sucks, and that someone should do something about it.

Yes, the "running scared" approach of LW3DG is less than the best. I take it as it comes, as there is no choice in the matter. It is their race to lose. Of course, if they lose, so do those of us who invested in them. This is especially true for those of us who have also invested perhaps more dollars in more tools (plugins) to expand the two basic applications' capabilities. Until then, I use all that is available to me; including many compatible and competing products.

Kid of boils down to this: just hire an outreach person, even an intern, give them a set of things on a periodic basis that they can talk about to keep the fire warm and all of this kvetching goes away.

jeric_synergy
06-08-2015, 12:49 AM
..... just hire an outreach person, even an intern, give them a set of things on a periodic basis that they can talk about to keep the fire warm and all of this kvetching goes away.
Yup. That same person could be finding the errors in the dox and correcting them or flagging them, and producing low-budget vids to highlight misunderstood/confusing features.

"Outreach", as you said.

I'm available.

Megalodon2.0
06-08-2015, 01:39 AM
Kid of boils down to this: just hire an outreach person, even an intern, give them a set of things on a periodic basis that they can talk about to keep the fire warm and all of this kvetching goes away.

Yup. And this has been said in countless threads previous to this. They KNOW what to do, they just refuse to do it.


Yup. That same person could be finding the errors in the dox and correcting them or flagging them, and producing low-budget vids to highlight misunderstood/confusing features.

"Outreach", as you said.

I'm available.

I think that would be great. Most people here could easily figure out what TO say and what NOT TO say to the community if they were "in the know." I think they SHOULD hire you for just this purpose. Why not?

hrgiger
06-08-2015, 02:26 AM
Honestly, I don't see why it matters to people at this point. I've made my points on the issue and many others have and its apparently lost on LW3DG. I'm just not sure how LW3DG can expect people to trust that LW is heading in proper direction after CORE, its really not a good time to be going all silent. One thing is apparent though, they seem to have no interest in improving modeling in LW and they've lost the only person that I'm aware of that could improve modeling in LightWave so I'm not sure where that leaves us. I'm sure the next upgrade will be 99% layout features though. Again. If it wasn't for LWCAD, there would be very little in keeping me using modeler. I just recently picked up a copy of Modo 901 which at least sees modeling improvements every upgrade.

It's like Jason said above, I use LW where it makes sense. But I have to not make the mistake not to feel brand loyal for the sake of it, the software has to speak for itself. And LightWave is still improving and I would love to see it continue to grow. But its certainly not seeing the kinds of improvements that CORE set out to do nor the kinds of changes that we were assured were coming after that ended.

Megalodon2.0
06-08-2015, 02:51 AM
Honestly, I don't see why it matters to people at this point.
Each of us is different. I have Modo, but I haven't seriously got into it seriously - I should. The same with Blender. I have a great deal of money invested in LW and I want to see it move forward. And it IS moving forward, but IMO (JUST... my opinion) at a snails pace.


I've made my points on the issue and many others have and its apparently lost on LW3DG. I'm just not sure how LW3DG can expect people to trust that LW is heading in proper direction after CORE, its really not a good time to be going all silent. One thing is apparent though, they seem to have no interest in improving modeling in LW and they've lost the only person that I'm aware of that could improve modeling in LightWave so I'm not sure where that leaves us. I'm sure the next upgrade will be 99% layout features though. Again. If it wasn't for LWCAD, there would be very little in keeping me using modeler. I just recently picked up a copy of Modo 901 which at least sees modeling improvements every upgrade.

It's like Jason said above, I use LW where it makes sense. But I have to not make the mistake not to feel brand loyal for the sake of it, the software has to speak for itself. And LightWave is still improving and I would love to see it continue to grow. But its certainly not seeing the kinds of improvements that CORE set out to do nor the kinds of changes that we were assured were coming after that ended.

I couldn't agree with you more if you paid me. Up through CORE, I was completely "brand-loyal" and didn't really care about the other packages. Cost was a factor, but I was also looking at XSI until it was bought and subsequently murdered by AD. That left C4D as a complete animation package and that was simply too expensive. Modo is still not there yet in terms of animation, but it IS making pretty good strides from what I can see - and I LIKE the developers. I also like that they interact with their customer base.

I like Rob, but IMO I don't see that he's doing right by his customers. Their tactics do not instill trust and one day even people like me - who are pretty much locked into using Lightwave - will finally jump on to another ship. Perhaps I just need another little push? When LW2016 rears its head - and if it is as HR suggested, Layout only and virtually no Modeler improvements AND nothing else evident under-the-hood alluding to integration - that may be enough for me to SAY enough, it's just not worth it any more. :cry:

artzgo
06-08-2015, 03:04 AM
Many users have high expectations to the CORE.
And messed up.
After the fall CORE 98% of users in Poland moved to MODO ... in LW is a few people.
Bad the CORE collapsed, now We would have modern soft and a lot of new users ... a lot of users = more money for the development software.
Communication with users it would be better ... but needed more quick and good development of LW.

A lot of users followed the release of LW 2015 and They said, that too little has been done in LW to return ... with the MODO or Blender :(

spherical
06-08-2015, 03:51 AM
I'm just not sure how LW3DG can expect people to trust that LW is heading in proper direction after CORE, its really not a good time to be going all silent.

Yes. If anything, during the aftermath is the time to be more present and vocal; even if it is all nothing more than hype.

spherical
06-08-2015, 03:55 AM
one day even people like me - who are pretty much locked into using Lightwave - will finally jump on to another ship. Perhaps I just need another little push? When LW2016 rears its head - and if it is as HR suggested, Layout only and virtually no Modeler improvements AND nothing else evident under-the-hood alluding to integration - that may be enough for me to SAY enough, it's just not worth it any more.

Seems like you have 1.5 feet out the door already.

And, I really wish that people would stop using "under the hood". Not just you, everyone. I mean, where else would code changes happen... on the roof, on the box? OF COURSE it's going to be under the hood. Grrrrrr......

Ztreem
06-08-2015, 06:32 AM
I'm sure the next upgrade will be 99% layout features though. Again. If it wasn't for LWCAD, there would be very little in keeping me using modeler. I just recently picked up a copy of Modo 901 which at least sees modeling improvements every upgrade.



This is a quote from Rob Powers in the LW 2015 thread, so maybe next release will have some modeler love... or the version after that. :)

"I will say that under the hood work has gone into foundational modeling architecture and we are serious about innovating with our modeling tools."

hrgiger
06-08-2015, 06:47 AM
This is a quote from Rob Powers in the LW 2015 thread, so maybe next release will have some modeler love... or the version after that. :)

"I will say that under the hood work has gone into foundational modeling architecture and we are serious about innovating with our modeling tools."

And if that's the case, I would be among the first to applaud them. But for those of us who spend a majority of their time modeling, it's just gotten to the point of I will believe it when I see it. I'm still hopeful that good things are ahead for lightwave, but I can't wait around for things I hope for, have to use what's available now.

Megalodon2.0
06-08-2015, 08:58 AM
Seems like you have 1.5 feet out the door already.

And, I really wish that people would stop using "under the hood". Not just you, everyone. I mean, where else would code changes happen... on the roof, on the box? OF COURSE it's going to be under the hood. Grrrrrr......

I think you know what I mean - and I'm not talking about general coding changes since I DID SAY alluding to integration. And as HR pointed out - and so many others as well - there does not SEEM to be anything seriously being done in this direction. And since there may be changes that we DO NOT SEE "under the hood," it is perfectly understandable AND warranted to use the term.

If I were 1.5 feet already out the door, I would be OUT the door. We have about 12 licenses of LW along with MANY 3rd party plugins that cost us quite a bit of cash. One HUGE reason not to jump ship, as well as the familiarity/comfort I have with the program.

hrgiger
06-08-2015, 10:18 AM
Well im sure that LW3DG is hard at work and I dont want to come across as not appreciating what they do. I upgraded to LW 2015 as soon as I was able to and I dont see moving away from LightWave anytime soon. I just wish they would work on their ability to excite people, current and potential customers alike.

jeric_synergy
06-08-2015, 10:28 AM
Well im sure that LW3DG is hard at work ....
The thing is, there's more to running a PRODUCT than simply (meme trigger!) making it work well. Short version= marketing is part of the TASK.

And community outreach is part of marketing.

hrgiger
06-08-2015, 10:39 AM
The thing is, there's more to running a PRODUCT than simply (meme trigger!) making it work well. Short version= marketing is part of the TASK.

And community outreach is part of marketing.

Yeah Eric. Thing is though, when they dont do any talking, the product has to do it for them. So it just goes back to buying the software that does what you want now, not what you hope it will do in the future.

jeric_synergy
06-08-2015, 07:23 PM
It's not just that: there's things LW is PERFECTLY capable of doing, but they are not well-known. That used to be SplineGod's unpaid function: to clue the rest of into the capabilities.

For instance, there are things in the scripting that are EXTREMELY difficult to root out-- and at least Chazriker is profiting (to some extent) from filling that gap, but LWG should be stepping up. At less technical levels, I was hoping Cody (??) would be DEMONSTRATING EXISTING YET UNSUNG features so we could all hop on board, but that seemed to be a short-lived initiative.

And the new channels of communication are, IMM, not well-suited: Facebook and Twitter are not good venues for technical discussions.

But of course, as is well known, my major ire is reserved for that low-hanging fruit that IS document amendment.

Dexter2999
06-08-2015, 07:56 PM
Facebook and Twitter are not good venues for technical discussions.

I find it an interesting dichotomy in the marketing and the development. Facebook and Twitter are great venues to reach casual/new users. Professional users I would think, would lean towards something with more substance.

Development has been more towards the professional user with things like Stereoscopics, Virtual Studio, Python scripting. All things I applaud, because they are meant to keep LW relevant to professional markets. However, things like Bevel, and a more refined text tool, snapping, etc... are tools that have been, ermm... "put on the back burner" shall we say? In favor of these "meatier" projects. And these basic (fundamental) tools are the ones the casual/new user will encounter first and will set the tone for whether or not they stick with LW.

If it works, wonderful! If it is too much work or complicated, people will probably ditch it in favor of something that works they way they expect it to or at least with less effort.

In a lot of ways it reminds me of Linux development.

In any event, I can't say that the current marketing plan is particularly "synergistic" with development plan. At least not from my perspective. Others may disagree.

jeric_synergy
06-08-2015, 08:06 PM
In a lot of ways it reminds me of Linux development.
OUCH! Sweet burn, dude. ;)

spherical
06-09-2015, 01:08 AM
Agreed that FB/T are essentially lame attempts at appeasing and only good to spread the word to a larger n00b audience and gain new seats that really are less trouble.

So... what do we experienced and seasoned users do? All agree to get on planes and show up on the same day and hour at the doors of LW3DG and get eye-to-eye? Seems to be the only path... 'cuz... damn. "We're very busy working on LightWave making deep changes" over and over, doesn't cut it; not after this long.