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Hail
11-18-2014, 05:57 AM
What was the rational behind closing the David Ikeda thread without any proper explanation?
I thought the LW3DG was hard pressed on work and didn't have time to post on the forums, but strangely enough they can suddenly afford to sneak in and nuke threads without a word?

Well, I don't know what all that was about but that is not the way to communicate to your clients after subjecting them to the silent treatment for over a year!:(

lightscape
11-18-2014, 06:01 AM
Yeah that was not cool at all to lock that thread.

Surrealist, here's my take on experience.
"only fools learn from experience while the wise learn from history"

History repeats itself again because it seems there's failure to learn from it.

Maybe we should mass email management and the founders since I doubt they read the forums anyway.

Otterman
11-18-2014, 06:12 AM
sheesh! I totally understand Newtek locking it down, it was turning into a LW bashing thread. Not cool folks not cool!

Skonk
11-18-2014, 06:30 AM
If Lightwave users are bashing Lightwave then perhaps listening to that feedback would be beneficial rather than shutting down threads?

Oedo 808
11-18-2014, 06:34 AM
They might allow a thread in the relevant section without moronic comments such as:


That looks like another M*d* in the making.. way to go, LW3DG!
Keep kicking out all the innovative and skillful brains and soon we will all be camping elsewhere.
BTW. I've already started pitching my tent in the C4D camp and I wonder how many more are doing the same. :P

I wouldn't have stopped at locking the thread, I'd have suspended some accounts into the bargain.

11-18-2014, 06:36 AM
You guys are funny in a sad way.

Why am I posting at all...

Sad readings around here, nowadays.


If it had stayed open, i would have thought it was a publicity stunt, of him showing off our next version, getting the fires stoked for this new app we would eventually call a LW protege.

But alas, it broke the rules of the forum: advert for a competing (or soon to be) app.

Perfectly within their rights. Apple is one of the few business' that claim "Cool" as a goal. Go into their forums, bash their stuff, and they won't be "Cool" anymore, either.

Hail
11-18-2014, 06:52 AM
They might allow a thread in the relevant section without moronic comments such as:

Dude you've got to learn to lighten up!
That was meant to be sarcastic and not be taken seriously at all.




I wouldn't have stopped at locking the thread, I'd have suspended some accounts into the bargain.

Nuff said already.
Cheers!:)

jboudreau
11-18-2014, 07:00 AM
What was the rational behind closing the David Ikeda thread and without any proper explanation?
I thought the LW3DG was hard pressed on work and didn't have time to post on the forums, but strangely enough they can suddenly afford to sneak in and nuke threads without a word?

Well, I don't know what all that was about but that is not the way to communicate to your clients after subjecting them to the silent treatment for over a year!:(

Really you don't know the rationality behind closing the thread. Maybe this had something to do with it along with some other really bad comments

That looks like another M*d* in the making.. way to go, LW3DG!
Keep kicking out all the innovative and skillful brains and soon we will all be camping elsewhere.
BTW. I've already started pitching my tent in the C4D camp and I wonder how many more are doing the same. :P

There's nothing wrong with us following what David is up to and discussing it on the forum (and I don't think the LW3DG had a problem with it either) I even saw a message on David's facebook page from Lino Grandi himself discussing about his bone system constraints etc. It's when people started bashing the Lightwave Team without even knowing what is going on behind the scenes. I think that's going too far and the reason why the thread was closed and to be honest I'm glad it was. (Because of the bashing only)

I understand your frustration with the complete silence as most of us do here but to be honest we have no idea what the LW3DG team is up too and it doesn't give us any right to bash them for their efforts. Instead we should be encouraging and thanking them for all their hard work. Maybe if we have more of a positive attitude towards them we might just get what we've been asking for. Let's just wait to see what Lightwave 11.7/12 has to offer. Then we can make our own decisions on what to do next.

LW3DG - I really think something has to be done soon about this silence treatment before it really gets ugly, you can already see the effects it's starting to have. I came to lightwave because of the software but mainly for this amazing community and before the CORE issue their use to be great communication from the Lightwave team now it's just complete silence. We need something, more tutorials, maybe some screen captures of some of the new features, Talk about what has been fixed possibly anything that will give the community confidence that something is happening. We really need to move on from the CORE issues and get back to what Lightwave and the Lightwave team/community use to be all about, Great communication with it's users.

Thanks
Jason

Otterman
11-18-2014, 07:04 AM
Well said Jason, here here

Oedo 808
11-18-2014, 07:09 AM
Dude you've got to learn to lighten up!
That was meant to be sarcastic and not be taken seriously at all.

If that is true then it went completely over my head, the sad thing is that if indeed it was supposed to be a satirical comment, it didn't stand out from that which you might come to expect from some posters for it to register.

However, if it was satire then I can't see why you would have started this thread... more satire? :|

MarcusM
11-18-2014, 07:15 AM
I just want to say that for many, LW is not jus a toy, a hobby, it is a tool for earn on living. It must be taken seriously from boths sides.

50one
11-18-2014, 07:17 AM
I'm not surprised it was closed. I more surprised that no one here discusses Kim Kardashian's fat arse mag cover photo.

ernesttx
11-18-2014, 07:24 AM
All I can say is that as a new customer of LW3DG for a year now, I'm a bit disillusioned and bewildered at their behavior. What got me interested in LW was seeing the Siggraph 2013 videos and seeing ChronoSculpt. It's been a year and that software has had no significant improvements. I'll keep an eye out for whatever comes next (LW 11.7/12/?, ChronoSculpt 2.0?) and evaluate my needs. But, this behavior gives me no confidence, not necessarily in the software, but in the leadership.

erikals
11-18-2014, 07:27 AM
If that is true then it went completely over my head, the sad thing is that if indeed it was supposed to be a satirical comment, it didn't stand out from that which you might come to expect from some posters for it to register.

However, if it was satire then I can't see why you would have started this thread... more satire? :|
yep


it broke the rules of the forum: advert for a competing (or soon to be) app.
yep


back to what Lightwave and the Lightwave team/community use to be all about, Great communication with it's users.
yep,... or did it?


I more surprised that no one here discusses Kim Kardashian
been done, i suggested Kim should ride a Carnotaurus in Terra Nova

OFF
11-18-2014, 07:50 AM
lino.grandi lino.grandi:
That went too far already.
far behind or far ahead? )

SBowie
11-18-2014, 08:09 AM
What was the rational behind closing the David Ikeda thread and without any proper explanation?Without commenting on the decision to lock the thread, since a moderator has locked it, let me comment on your question:

Since the Forum Moderation Policy (http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?63918) specifically states "Moderation decisions are not subject to public discussion. If you have comments, send an email or private message to the moderators", this entire thread is in breach of policy. So, while I won't take any moderation action, don't be surprised if someone else does.

hrgiger
11-18-2014, 08:13 AM
And this thread will soon be closed as well.

And its well within their rights. As much as i dont agree with their ongoing silent marketing plan, its their forum, their rules... Not only were posts like the OP unnecessary but its not uncommon for them to close thread when it comes to the promotion of competing products which Davids may very well become since he is no longer with LW3DG.

Hail
11-18-2014, 08:19 AM
Really you don't know the rationality behind closing the thread. Maybe this had something to do with it along with some other really bad comments

That looks like another M*d* in the making.. way to go, LW3DG!
Keep kicking out all the innovative and skillful brains and soon we will all be camping elsewhere.
BTW. I've already started pitching my tent in the C4D camp and I wonder how many more are doing the same. :P

Thanks
Jason

Lino's response before closing the thread was "That went too far already" which I suppose implied that, the entire thread had already gone beyond the red zone before my post.
So I don't think it is fair to attribute the reason for closing the thread to my post alone which as I've already stated was intended to be sarcastic.
I do agree that I may have gone a little overboard with the way I went about it but that didn't warrant the kind of heavy response we got from the lw3dg. Wouldn't it have been more professional to draw attention or perhaps issue a warning before landing the hammer since we are in such a sensitive period with so many people running out of patience?
No matter how you look at it, it doesn't speak well of the lw3dg.

Hail
11-18-2014, 08:35 AM
If that is true then it went completely over my head, the sad thing is that if indeed it was supposed to be a satirical comment, it didn't stand out from that which you might come to expect from some posters for it to register.

However, if it was satire then I can't see why you would have started this thread... more satire? :|

Well, you are free to make whatever you want to make out of that but I think I've made my position clear.

Hail
11-18-2014, 09:10 AM
Without commenting on the decision to lock the thread, since a moderator has locked it, let me comment on your question:

Since the Forum Moderation Policy (http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?63918) specifically states "Moderation decisions are not subject to public discussion. If you have comments, send an email or private message to the moderators", this entire thread is in breach of policy. So, while I won't take any moderation action, don't be surprised if someone else does.

Thanks for the info Steve and sorry for the rant but I hope you can understand the frustration here.:)

meatycheesyboy
11-18-2014, 09:11 AM
This is a little off topic, as it isn't about the David I. thread being closed and is more about my thoughts lately of this forum as a whole but here goes. Does anyone here frequent ZBC? Their forums are almost exclusively dedicated to one thing, art created in Zbrush. They have sections about off-topic or tech support things but they're pushed way down on the forum list and make up a really small part of the traffic. The noise to signal ratio on those forums is extremely low. In contrast, you have this place where the casual onlooker would believe that Lightwave is nothing more than a system built to facilitate gossiping about Lightwave. Around here it hardly seems like anyone actually uses Lightwave.

I've been on these forums for over 10 years now and while I don't remember a time when posting art was the most prevalent thing on these forums, I do remember a time when helping users to actually use Lightwave was. How do we get back to that and foster a community where posting art is more important than complaining/gossiping/speculating about the future of the software? I know where I'd start: a. make a LW dedicated forum on the LW3d website, b. delete either the community or the general discussion section, they're redundant, c. move the remaining section to the very bottom of the list.

If you look at my posting history, I'm definitely no saint, I post in a lot of the gossip threads so maybe I'm not one to talk but that's my rant for the day. Now back to your regularly scheduled b*tch fest.

50one
11-18-2014, 09:18 AM
This is a little off topic, as it isn't about the David I. thread being closed and is more about my thoughts lately of this forum as a whole but here goes. Does anyone here frequent ZBC? Their forums are almost exclusively dedicated to one thing, art created in Zbrush. They have sections about off-topic or tech support things but their pushed way down on the forum list and make up a really small part of the traffic. The noise to signal ratio on those forums is extremely low. In contrast, you have this place where the casual onlooker would believe that Lightwave is nothing more than a system built to facilitate gossiping about Lightwave. Around here it hardly seems like anyone actually uses Lightwave.

I've been on these forums for over 10 years now and while I don't remember a time when posting art was the most prevalent thing on these forums, I do remember a time when helping users to actually use Lightwave was. How do we get back to that and foster a community where posting art is more important than complaining/gossiping/speculating about the future of the software? I know where I'd start: a. make a LW dedicated forum on the LW3d website, b. delete either the community or the general discussion section, they're redundant, c. move the remaining section to the very bottom of the list.

If you look at my posting history, I'm definitely no saint, I post in a lot of the gossip threads so maybe I'm not one to talk but that's my rant for the day. Now back to your regularly scheduled b*tch fest.


Partially agree, but you cannot turn a normal car into a racing one by just drawing a racing stripes on it, someone should look at the engine first...

meatycheesyboy
11-18-2014, 09:26 AM
Partially agree, but you cannot turn a normal car into a racing one by just drawing a racing stripes on it, someone should look at the engine first...

You're right, you have to drill speed holes into it as well (old Simpsons reference). :)

Seriously though, I was only suggesting how I'd start. I would do more than just the things I suggested but since the maintenance/upgrading of this forum seems to be very low on NT's priority list there's no need to go into those things here.

50one
11-18-2014, 09:36 AM
You're right, you have to drill speed holes into it as well (old Simpsons reference). :)

Seriously though, I was only suggesting how I'd start. I would do more than just the things I suggested but since the maintenance/upgrading of this forum seems to be very low on NT's priority list there's no need to go into those things here.


Ohhh don't get me wrong I agree with you, but seriously tho what you're trying to do is fix the userbase while the problem lies somewhere else. A path to recovery is needed but let me tell you that judging by the past behaviour..well you know what I'm trying to say....

I'll just repeat myself, hope that it's clear. We're not here to attack, yes we point fingers, but the reason is we want(maybe a strong word) wish LW success and we want to help / be part of it, what we're getting in exchange?


- Silence
- Slap on a wrist when we cross the "red line"

jeric_synergy
11-18-2014, 10:25 AM
This is the SECOND stupid thread lately, the first being the RP rumor thread.

It's NewTek's site, they can do whatever they want, and the thread was becoming anti-productive.

Surrealist.
11-18-2014, 11:13 AM
Yeah I am guilty for contributing to the LW 3D group "bashing". But they closed the thread. Let it go. It is thier forum. Move on.

mav3rick
11-18-2014, 11:19 AM
If that is true then it went completely over my head, the sad thing is that if indeed it was supposed to be a satirical comment, it didn't stand out from that which you might come to expect from some posters for it to register.

However, if it was satire then I can't see why you would have started this thread... more satire? :|

+1

i think guy is bluffing as i dont see his comments sarcastic .... think this thread should be locked as well cause it goes nowhere. even if i would like NT to be more friendly on communication it is up to their strategic plan to remain silent as they were more than once criticized in past regarding wrong marketing decisions. I am sure they are more than aware of delicate position they are in, and that they have huge pressure regarding lw 12 and remain lw community.. last 7 days ... not much of positive energy from fanbase they have with threads like this.

bazsa73
11-18-2014, 11:33 AM
We doesn't even have thumbnails in the galleries. It's not funny not having any because it feels really stupid, it's like pre-cold war lackonomy.
You don't know crap about that but in this side of the iron curtain people just built things from whatever they had, pretty much like MacGyver except
they didn't have fancy swiss army knives and quality duct tapes.

mav3rick
11-18-2014, 11:47 AM
yes i would like gallery thumbs we had pre forum update. as i understand updating should improve stuff... so i would say gallery was trade off :)

bobakabob
11-18-2014, 12:49 PM
I'm amazed that LW3DG are so tolerant of some posters here. This is a Lightwave forum. There's room for thoughtful debate about strengths and weaknesses to help Lightwave's future. But comments like "I'm dumping LW and pitching my tent on software X" are not remotely constructive, just plain moronic. Why are these people allowed to troll like this? As a Lightwave enthusiast (+ Maya and Zbrush pipeline user) I'm not learning anything on these forums from this ranting. Professional users, academics and enthusiasts use multiple tool sets these days and all this stuff about "I'm leaving LW for software x" is just a massive waste of time. You rarely see any creative contributions from these posters as they just seem obsessed with lines of code. I'd much rather share knowledge about how software packages can work together creatively in professional pipelines as the LW3D has made great strides in this direction. IMHO LW is very much an essential 3d app (just the speed and flexibility of it's brilliant - interactive - renderer is worth investment) and the Maya folk I work with are genuinely impressed. The LW3DG have done a fantastic job it's genuinely exciting anticipating LW12.

shrox
11-18-2014, 12:52 PM
125552

erikals
11-18-2014, 01:08 PM
Great photo! http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/king.gif

and as for this thread...

http://erikalstad.com/emoti/popcorn.gif

stiff paper
11-18-2014, 01:09 PM
- We doesn't even have thumbnails in the galleries.
- yes i would like gallery thumbs we had pre forum update.
When the new forum debacle went down, thumbnails were asked about and at least one member of the LW3DG posted to say, in effect, that they don't have much say in how the forum works. The forum is maintained by NewTek, not by LW3DG.

It is possible, you know, for people out there to miss things as the forum winds along. Later, some of those same people can complain that X hasn't happened, or that Y needs to be done, when the explanations have been given previously.

One solution is for people to ask a question instead of leaping straight into complaints and condemnations. Like, for instance, "Did anybody ever say anything about why we don't have forum thumbnails any more? I miss them." Somebody would have answered by muttering darkly about it being NewTek's fault, not the LW3DG.

But that's a specific example and not really a particularly bad one.

Moving on, and in a wider sense, to the people making the more egregious complaints:-
Knock it off.

Do you have any idea how whiny and entitled you sound? Do you understand that you sound like somebody who's all bitter and twisted about their ex-girlfriend (or boyfriend)? "Oooooh... she won't TALK to me! Waaah! Why won't she talk to me! She should talk to me! Waaah! Waaah!"

The LW3DG announced that there was going to be pretty much complete radio silence and they were going away to work on 12. It isn't a difficult concept.

More than anything else, though, you're polluting and poisoning the forum with this endless "I'm going to complain! Me! Complain! Me! I'm complaining! Complain! Complain!" whining and "I heard that Rob Powers caught all the rest of the LW3DG with bear traps and threw them into a bottomless pit!" stupidity.

Please stop making it so that reading the forum is a miserable, depressing experience.

Really. Get a ****ing grip. Go outside for a walk. Have a mug of tea. Hell, have a mug of bourbon. Smoke something. Eat a fish taco. Or a chocolate donut if that's what you fancy. Do something recreational. And chill out. Whatever it takes. The LW3DG is still trying to catch up on... what was it? Pretty much six years of not doing the right thing over and over. I'm sure they feel just great reading all this BS. No wonder they don't post here very often.

Use your complaining for when they do something and it's wrong, not for when they don't do something. Your complaint will be worth more at that point anyway.

TL/DR - Gah! Bah! Grr!

extra
11-18-2014, 03:10 PM
I'm amazed that LW3DG are so tolerant of some posters here.

They are nowhere near as amazing or tolerant as some of their customers have been and still are. Imagine instead what you are observing are users that have already been sitting by the shore along time waiting for a boat plagued by misfortune to finally arrive or atleast receive a telegram that it is on it's way and their loved ones are still safe onboard. Under the pressure of longterm grave uncertainty, they crack one by one. Scales of hope and doubt finally tipping. Joyous anticipation becomes hopeless despair. It is not their fault! They are unfortunate victims of a sad sad situation.

djwaterman
11-18-2014, 06:29 PM
Lately I've taken to typing out my post, reading it a number of times, asking myself if it contributes in any way, asking myself if I really need to send this? Then cutting and pasting the post into a word document for safe keeping and then deleting the post.
I have quite a huge bulk of slightly controversial replies built up from reading threads like these( actually not so much this one), all saved in a big document. I found that the therapy is in the writing part, and often I don't really need to post them, in fact I try very hard not to keep negative threads alive by posting anything on them. But if they go on too long, I still have a reply ready and waiting. I've never found the need yet to post any of them.

shrox
11-18-2014, 07:09 PM
Lately I've taken to typing out my post, reading it a number of times, asking myself if it contributes in any way, asking myself if I really need to send this? Then cutting and pasting the post into a word document for safe keeping and then deleting the post...

I do that too!

Davewriter
11-18-2014, 07:45 PM
Partially agree, but you cannot turn a normal car into a racing one by just drawing a racing stripes on it, someone should look at the engine first...
Unless you have Kim Kardashian's fat arse hanging out a window. Then nobody cares about the engine.

Matt
11-18-2014, 07:48 PM
It was closed because it was getting out of hand, I personally read multiple insults, one aimed at the founder of NewTek, and that one I personally was extremely unhappy about.

We don't like to delete or even close threads, but if a respectful manner cannot be maintained, I see no option. This is why I will be closing this thread, not out of malice, but because it simply isn't the kind of interaction these forums are about.

Now please, let's focus on more positive things.

BokadCastle
11-18-2014, 08:40 PM
just close the bloody thing.

Megalodon2.0
11-18-2014, 08:44 PM
This is why I will be closing this thread, not out of malice, but because it simply isn't the kind of interaction these forums are about.

Then perhaps Newtek/LW3DG needs to do some interacting with their customers? Not the little bit here and there and not on Facebook, but on their OWN forums.

The sad truth is... this is the LW3DG's own making. Granted there have been some less respectful comments, but to paraphrase you, it's not "out of malice," but out of frustration. And with all due respect to the people who accept the silence without question, I would bet that the majority are not happy with it at all. Add to that the complete silence on the Chronosculpt and Nevron forums - not even responding to questions - this sort of interchange is going to continue to happen.

The ball is in the LW3D court. You can either lock threads or begin to communicate. What do you think is in the best interest of all?

sukardi
11-18-2014, 08:50 PM
Hi Matt,

Close the threads if you must but we need to know what is LW3DG plan for 2015.

Time is running out and if this silence goes on for much longer, people hurling insults on the forum would be the least of your worries.

BokadCastle
11-18-2014, 08:54 PM
Hi Matt,

, people hurling insults on the forum would be the least of your worries.

hmm...what, jeez. Is that a threat?

shrox
11-18-2014, 09:02 PM
125563

sukardi
11-18-2014, 09:05 PM
hmm...what, jeez. Is that a threat?

The threat of there may not be anybody left on the forums to hurl insults. Yeah, I know, I know I am free to leave if I am not happy, yadadada...

The fact is that I have been using LW since ver 5.6 and loving it but as soon as I can get Modo to work reliably on network rendering, I may not look back. Such a shame ...

Surrealist.
11-18-2014, 09:31 PM
Insults and all other nonsense asside, I think a lot of people would appreciate some interaction here. When you add it up this is a significant blow to LW, from our perspective. If David left silently and got a job back where he was sitting in a room coding someplace, and back to being under an NDA, that'd be one thing.

But no. He went off and started creating another app. Not secretly but publicly, in your face, full on interaction and he is giving people a hope of what they thought they might eventually see from LightWave. And you guys sit back, read the thread, say nothing. Then when it gets nasty, close the thread. That is entirely up to you.

However there is an issue that has been raised you can not deny. What does this mean for LightWave? It warrants more than just a slight off hand comment, or to be brushed off as does not really matter.

David, for a lot of people represented hope. You can not keep shutting people out and expecting things to run along smoothly here. It can not be both ways.

I feel strongly that you guys owe the community some kind of communication regarding this matter. Did you really think you could just blow it off and have it not come back and hit you? You all must have well known what he has been up to. Why did you not take a more proactive stance, and make an attempt to sell people on the fact that things are continuing in a positive direction despite this.

I'd say this would be your obligation not only to us but to your own company and its well being, in the end your future employment. It is just pure logic where I stand.

After finding out what was going on, for me, frankly I lost a lot of faith in what LightWave may have to offer. I have been waiting for LW 12. And I can wait.

Many won't. They'll loose patience after a while and leave.

Megalodon2.0
11-18-2014, 09:57 PM
I'd say this would be your obligation not only to us but to your own company and its well being, in the end your future employment. It is just pure logic where I stand.

After finding out what was going on, for me, frankly I lost a lot of faith in what LightWave may have to offer. I have been waiting for LW 12. And I can wait.

Many won't. They'll loose patience after a while and leave.

Very well said - and the rest of the post as well. :thumbsup:

I'm in the same camp as you are. I will wait for LW12 - others won't - but I don't expect this silence to continue and the LW3DG expecting things to roll forward in a positive light. If they honestly do, then I don't believe that they are in touch with the majority of their userbase. We - the vocal ones - truly want to see LW move UPWARDS. If they think that most of us are here simply to "bash LW" then they really don't understand us. It is called frustration.

I hope they start talking - SOON. :phone_cal

tonyrizo2003
11-18-2014, 10:02 PM
I agree with the above two postings.

Such a shame that we spend our time complaining instead of creating or creating new techniques.

I think I'll go rig some character just for fun.

Matt
11-18-2014, 10:06 PM
We've recently replied regarding where we're at, and that is we are currently working on the next release. Given that we don't talk about features ahead of time, for a whole bunch of reasons, I'm not sure what I can say that would satisfy anyone. Some said in previous threads that all they needed to hear was they we're working on the next release and that's why we've been knuckling down, which is exactly what is happening right now. Not only are we working on the next release, but also making some deep changes that will bear fruit in future releases, of course I can't elaborate much further at this time.

Stay tuned though! :)

spherical
11-18-2014, 10:11 PM
The forum is maintained by NewTek, not by LW3DG.

Actually, there are two sections: everything not LightWave maintained by NewTek and the other (LightWave related) maintained by LW3DG.

erikals
11-18-2014, 10:15 PM
my opinion, personal insults are not welcome

discussing a competitive app will likely close a thread

it's been very quiet from the LWG on the forum this last year,
is that a good thing?

direct communication with the full LW userbase can't be that bad, can it?
i'm excluding the LW12 beta tester people here...

i won't go bananas over it, but it's something i miss also [over and out]


instead of creating or creating new techniques
not me...
and tomorrow is SynthEyes time... ordering... http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/boogiedown.gif

spherical
11-18-2014, 10:18 PM
The forum is maintained by NewTek, not by LW3DG.

Actually, there are two sections: everything not LightWave maintained by NewTek and the other (LightWave related) maintained by LW3DG.

motivalex
11-18-2014, 10:42 PM
I got a feeling LW3DG have a lot to communicate about and are waiting for the right moment. Probably frustrating for themselves that they have got to keep things quiet until they are ready. I think Matts comments above should be enough for people to calm down. I am making good use of bullet, instancing, the native AE link (2nd to Cinema 4d imho which is a compliment) and many of the new tools that were added in LW11.x. So the team has kept LW relevant to my workflow. I have been critical of it lates 1990s UI etc but I'm hopeful that LW12 is going to be a major noticable departure into serious modernisation. Why do I think this? Because the LW3D people are a bunch of clever sods and I'm sure they know what's at stake. So I say, lets be patient at least this one last time and see what LW12 brings. Then you can either sing their praises or sharpen your pitch forks.

sukardi
11-18-2014, 10:46 PM
We've recently replied regarding where we're at, and that is we are currently working on the next release. Given that we don't talk about features ahead of time, for a whole bunch of reasons, I'm not sure what I can say that would satisfy anyone. Some said in previous threads that all they needed to hear was they we're working on the next release and that's why we've been knuckling down, which is exactly what is happening right now. Not only are we working on the next release, but also making some deep changes that will bear fruit in future releases, of course I can't elaborate much further at this time.

Stay tuned though! :)

Thanks Matt. Much appreciated.

Although an indicative timeline of when it is coming out for BETA would be nice (just pushing my luck here...)

calilifestyle
11-18-2014, 10:52 PM
Thank you Matt

jeric_synergy
11-18-2014, 11:08 PM
Shall we call Proton back to kick our butts again? ;)

Seriously, people!, there's other things to talk about, like RHiggit and Ryan Roye's latest update to his toolset. I note that RR seems to get an entire SHOW done with LW, maybe we should be grilling him instead of poor Matt.

vncnt
11-18-2014, 11:41 PM
I agree with the above two postings.

Such a shame that we spend our time complaining instead of creating or creating new techniques.

I think I'll go rig some character just for fun.

While you guys were complaining yesterday (as a
therapy?), Ive posted an update revO9 for Legato that allows you to transfer selected character motions + morph channels + master channels from external LWS scene files.

Transfer of selected character motions from internal sources was already supported in earlier versions of Legato.

If you want more tools that support your character animation production process, check out the latest version of Legato:
http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?136828-How-to-change-a-rig-in-45-scene-files&p=1408802&viewfull=1#post1408802

That will give me the feedback to improve it and you can off-load any frustration.

Surrealist.
11-18-2014, 11:46 PM
Look, this has to be said. With all due respect to William and his blog. I think I posted something along these lines in his thread.

There is a place for everything. The support forums are for support. Gallery for gallery. We all don't work, 24/7. We do other things. We have other interests. And one of those interests in the direction of where software is going. This is natural. This is - like it or not - where people do spend some time. Be it beta testing, posting feature requests and so on.

Life is multifaceted.

In this case, the users want interaction. They don't want to hear that "well we are working on it". They want to hear more.

tonyrizo2003
11-19-2014, 01:06 AM
While you guys were complaining yesterday (as a
therapy?), Ive posted an update revO9 for Legato that allows you to transfer selected character motions + morph channels + master channels from external LWS scene files.

Transfer of selected character motions from internal sources was already supported in earlier versions of Legato.

If you want more tools that support your character animation production process, check out the latest version of Legato:
http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?136828-How-to-change-a-rig-in-45-scene-files&p=1408802&viewfull=1#post1408802

That will give me the feedback to improve it and you can off-load any frustration.

OMG!!! That is so cool!

I wish I had the time to play with it!!

tonyrizo2003
11-19-2014, 01:20 AM
@Matt, thank you for all the replies, however, I think Surrealist is on to something here. Don't get me wrong it's nice to have or know of what is coming down the pipe. However, I think the community just misses the interaction with the developers. We look forward to interacting with people like yourself, Rebel Hill, Ryan Roye etc... William V., Larry Schultz (RIP), Chris Jones, Erikals and others. Even though there is Facebook as well, we still have a lot of people interacting here in the forum. Where users feel this is the center of the LW community. Personally, I was very grateful and excited to see all of the cross talk between Chris Jones and Lino and everyone else that chimed in. I think that is really the type of interaction users want to see in the forums besides just the usual suspects (not complaining, but very grateful to all of the usual suspects!!!). It all takes time, I think we users are missing the direct interaction with the team. Don't get me wrong, the news letters are great! They represent the artists and LW very well.

Just my two cents, thank you for your time and all of your efforts it is appreciated.

Tony :)

50one
11-19-2014, 01:35 AM
We've recently replied regarding where we're at, and that is we are currently working on the next release. Given that we don't talk about features ahead of time, for a whole bunch of reasons, I'm not sure what I can say that would satisfy anyone. Some said in previous threads that all they needed to hear was they we're working on the next release and that's why we've been knuckling down, which is exactly what is happening right now. Not only are we working on the next release, but also making some deep changes that will bear fruit in future releases, of course I can't elaborate much further at this time.

Stay tuned though! :)



Finally! Some light in the tunnel. Was it really that hard?
when the kids are asking "are we there yet?" every couple of minutes, do you just ignore them for the entire, 4 hr journey?:)
"Almost there" is good enough for now, it's a good start hehe.

hrgiger
11-19-2014, 02:55 AM
Thanks Matt, appreciate your efforts as well as everyone there at LW3DG.

Ztreem
11-19-2014, 03:15 AM
Not only are we working on the next release, but also making some deep changes that will bear fruit in future releases, of course I can't elaborate much further at this time.


Thanks Matt! I think this is was what most of us wanted to hear, of course we always want more details but for now I feel more comfortable to wait a bit more...

COBRASoft
11-19-2014, 03:38 AM
As far as I understand this, LW12 will not be the big visual change version many expect. It will contain 'deep changes' for future releases. I'm crossing my fingers I'm wrong in this...

@Matt, thanks for the effort to calm things down here. It's pity this kind of topics are most active at this forum lately.

Megalodon2.0
11-19-2014, 03:55 AM
As far as I understand this, LW12 will not be the big visual change version many expect. It will contain 'deep changes' for future releases. I'm crossing my fingers I'm wrong in this...

What? Why would anyone NOT want this? We don't need that "flash-bang-wow" stuff that can't talk with each other. We NEED a solid base application that CAN speak with all plugins and have all plugins able to speak with each other - NOT half-baked implementations. More of the same will not cut it.

erikals
11-19-2014, 04:16 AM
deep changes that will bear fruit in future releases

+10 http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/king.gif


http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/icon_biggrin.gif

lino.grandi
11-19-2014, 05:50 AM
We've recently replied regarding where we're at, and that is we are currently working on the next release. Given that we don't talk about features ahead of time, for a whole bunch of reasons, I'm not sure what I can say that would satisfy anyone. Some said in previous threads that all they needed to hear was they we're working on the next release and that's why we've been knuckling down, which is exactly what is happening right now. Not only are we working on the next release, but also making some deep changes that will bear fruit in future releases, of course I can't elaborate much further at this time.

Stay tuned though! :)

I totally subscribe what Matt said.

About the reason why the previous thread was closed, I think it's pretty clear, as many users stated in this thread.

SBowie
11-19-2014, 07:43 AM
my opinion, personal insults are not welcomeTrue. For anyone to contend that insults should be viewed as a lesser problem when compared to x, y or z is just evasion, hand-waving ('Maybe I was weaving in and out of traffic, officer, but the real problem here is these potholes!').

Personal insults and provocative language are unquestionably unprofessional, and often indicate immaturity (or, occasionally, based on lengthy experience here, someone either being 'off their meds' or a bit inebriated). Otherwise, resorting to these tactics strongly suggests they are not up to the challenge of finding valid points and mature language to advance their argument.

For this reason, they are also violations of forum policy, which states in part "The following items are not considered professional or civil discourse allowed on these forums ... Non-constructive criticism of a malicious nature ...Personal attacks against NewTek customers or employees and their family members". I don't 'patrol the roads' in this part of the forums, but I can tell you that this sort of thing is unwelcome, and will generally lead to moderation.

COBRASoft
11-19-2014, 08:53 AM
What? Why would anyone NOT want this? We don't need that "flash-bang-wow" stuff that can't talk with each other. We NEED a solid base application that CAN speak with all plugins and have all plugins able to speak with each other - NOT half-baked implementations. More of the same will not cut it.

Don't get me wrong, I know very well this is important. But I think many people expect huge changes (visual appealing and such) for LW12.

LW12 has become more like a myth already than possible reality. It takes time to make deep changes, a lot of time. Not sure everybody realizes how tough developing can be, certainly within somebody else's code. So, I'm really looking forward how they will address this and show what they've done under the hood. Also what the future possibilities will be thanks to those changes.

COBRASoft
11-19-2014, 08:56 AM
I totally subscribe what Matt said.

About the reason why the previous thread was closed, I think it's pretty clear, as many users stated in this thread.

Lino, I agree why the previous thread was closed down, it simply became personal and this is never a good thing.
But the fact that 3 people of LW already posted in this small thread shows that you guys realize that the lack of communication is the key problem many of us are having. I don't think anybody is thinking you're just sitting there and do nothing :).

tonyrizo2003
11-19-2014, 09:10 AM
@SBowie, I totally agree

ernesttx
11-19-2014, 12:03 PM
So, how about this. Can LW talk about things they aren't changing or improving? Like "We won't be making any changes to the current Dopesheet/Graph Editor." That way, some of us who are putting a pipeline in place for future projects can know whether our wish to have the Dopesheet/Graph Editor improved won't be coming in the future; so that we can make decisions about what software to evaluate based on our needs? I don't care about instances, or Bullet (so much) or micro poly displacement. I care about a fundamental workflow for animation work.

hazmat777
11-19-2014, 01:53 PM
So, how about this. Can LW talk about things they aren't changing or improving? Like "We won't be making any changes to the current Dopesheet/Graph Editor." That way, some of us who are putting a pipeline in place for future projects can know whether our wish to have the Dopesheet/Graph Editor improved won't be coming in the future; so that we can make decisions about what software to evaluate based on our needs? I don't care about instances, or Bullet (so much) or micro poly displacement. I care about a fundamental workflow for animation work.

Have they changed anything in the Graph Editor since 9.6? I really would like to see what their progress on it may look like.

mav3rick
11-19-2014, 02:28 PM
so that we all agree now.. hug and beers.. we can lock this thread too and move along :)

kadri
11-19-2014, 02:31 PM
Or let me be the last poster here and move on without locking for a softer end?

spherical
11-19-2014, 02:51 PM
Not happenin'. :D

kadri
11-19-2014, 02:52 PM
You...you.... :D

spherical
11-19-2014, 03:10 PM
Heh... this could go on forever. :) Better than kvetching.

BokadCastle
11-19-2014, 03:29 PM
well, they need to at least change the Tab colours of Scene/Dope Editor.

The Tabs stay on the default colour of Boring Blue.

I've created a rather fetching orange scheme in keeping with LWCAD and the later modelling tools.
I used Dee's wonderful program for all colours, even so the Scene/Dope Editor is not linked.

- - - Updated - - -

You can close this thread now.

Waves of light
11-19-2014, 03:43 PM
Thanks Matt for posting. Looking forward to seeing what the next version of LW has to offer and I'm intrigued to see these deep changes you speak about.

:beerchug:

MarcusM
11-19-2014, 04:01 PM
I hope during one month something will appear... In my company will be shopping before tax year end. LWCad vs LW12 or both if Modeler get worth upgrade :)

Megalodon2.0
11-19-2014, 04:44 PM
Not only are we working on the next release, but also making some deep changes that will bear fruit in future releases, of course I can't elaborate much further at this time.

This is PRECISELY the sort of information that most here want to hear. But the problem is... we don't want to hear it in a thread with lots of complaining.

Why can't you guys TALK TO US every week and provide little updates? I sincerely doubt that dispensing a little info one week and another little bit the following week regarding those "deep changes" will hurt anyone since most likely these things are undoubtedly already in other packages. AND you can always preface it by saying "we're not sure it will make it into the final release since we've got quite a bit of testing to do - and it will have to work perfectly before it becomes a part of LW." It doesn't have to be "wiz-bang" stuff - most everyone here understands you don't want to divulge anything substantial - but CONTINUAL communication is needed. I don't understand how other smaller companies (and larger) can communicate with their userbases and LW3DG does virtually nothing.

Most here (and yes we know, you can't please everyone) would accept that minimal information. But total silence is not helpful OR conducive to happy customers. And your blurb above does not really constitute "interacting with customers" - how many people won't be reading what you wrote? MOST. Interacting with your userbase can be easily accomplished by writing in ONE THREAD every week where everyone can EASILY find it AND expect to see it EVERY WEEK. I'm quite sure that Rob Powers can make a small list that shows those "deep changes" in non-specific terms that will allow you and/or Lino to TALK TO US.

I hope you guys take this to heart. I would much prefer tuning in here every Monday (or Friday) knowing that I will hear another tidbit of information about LW12. I won't expect to hear earth-shattering news, but I would expect that INTERACTION with your userbase telling us something. It would certainly beat closing down threads and reading complaint after complaint. Seriously, LW3DG can EASILY stop these types of threads before they even start. I'd certainly prefer it and I daresay most here would as well.

COBRASoft
11-19-2014, 05:33 PM
^^ +1

jeric_synergy
11-19-2014, 06:12 PM
"LAST!!!" ;)

As to the "deep changes" comment: I believe the commenter MEANT that the visual presentation of the next UI will not especially be a radical difference --after all, plenty of the UI works fine-- and it may not convey the deep deep deep fundamental changes in the architecture we've been whinging for at Volume=11 lo these many years.

IOW, the app will work better and be more flexible and be more extensible, but it won't hit us in the face with it.

That's my guess.

shrox
11-19-2014, 06:16 PM
125574

Megalodon2.0
11-19-2014, 06:40 PM
"LAST!!!" ;)

As to the "deep changes" comment: I believe the commenter MEANT that the visual presentation of the next UI will not especially be a radical difference --after all, plenty of the UI works fine-- and it may not convey the deep deep deep fundamental changes in the architecture we've been whinging for at Volume=11 lo these many years.

IOW, the app will work better and be more flexible and be more extensible, but it won't hit us in the face with it.

That's my guess.

I doubt that. Since Matt did say "that will bear fruit in future releases" seems quite a bit more involved that just the UI.

sukardi
11-19-2014, 06:58 PM
I think we should give Matt a break.

I believe he said what he said in a spur of the moment. Let's not over analyse it. ok?

BokadCastle
11-19-2014, 07:51 PM
You can close this thread now.

Yair, I agree.
+1

Surrealist.
11-19-2014, 07:57 PM
Yes, and open up a thread with some interaction. Please.

kadri
11-19-2014, 08:00 PM
+1

Megalodon2.0
11-19-2014, 08:00 PM
Yes, and open up a thread with some interaction. Please.

Perfect!

djwaterman
11-19-2014, 08:12 PM
- - - Updated - - -[/COLOR]

You can close this thread now.

I saw that screen shot when you showed it in another thread, and went and changed mine to a similar look. And lock this thread down and any others that pop up.

Megalodon2.0
11-19-2014, 08:23 PM
I saw that screen shot when you showed it in another thread, and went and changed mine to a similar look. And lock this thread down and any others that pop up.

Here's a thought... stop reading this thread? :)

spherical
11-19-2014, 08:28 PM
You can close this thread now.
Yair, I agree.
+1

I should hope so...

djwaterman
11-19-2014, 09:52 PM
Here's a thought... stop reading this thread? :)

I try to read all the threads. Where is this thing going? Nowhere, close it please.

Megalodon2.0
11-19-2014, 09:59 PM
I try to read all the threads. Where is this thing going? Nowhere, close it please.

Well now that you apparently KNOW where this thread is going, you can easily stop reading it. Some of us DON'T want it closed.

Surrealist.
11-19-2014, 10:17 PM
I try to read all the threads. Where is this thing going? Nowhere, close it please.

lol...

Apparently with all of these "hey what is happening LW3D Group" threads, we are talking to a wall anyway...

what is that definition of insanity?

jeric_synergy
11-19-2014, 10:30 PM
I doubt that. Since Matt did say "that will bear fruit in future releases" seems quite a bit more involved that just the UI.

Do you even READ what people type?

spherical
11-19-2014, 11:17 PM
I hope the thread doesn't get locked, because this is now becoming a source of levity. :D

shrox
11-19-2014, 11:49 PM
125575

Megalodon2.0
11-20-2014, 12:00 AM
Do you even READ what people type?

Sorry. After re-reading your post I agree.

VonBon
11-20-2014, 09:06 PM
Newtek should hire me.

I'd be like

A!, shut the hell up and stop askn questions.
You just listen when spoken too.

Now take yall *** to bed. :mad:

jeric_synergy
11-20-2014, 10:05 PM
Newtek should hire me.

I'd be like

A!, shut the hell up and stop askn questions.
You just listen when spoken too.

Now take yall *** to bed. :mad:
Yeah, I tried to get that job. They wouldn't hire me.

I even offered to moderate the user contributions to the documentation. Nada.

OnlineRender
11-21-2014, 02:45 AM
Newtek should hire me.

I'd be like

A!, shut the hell up and stop askn questions.
You just listen when spoken too.

Now take yall *** to bed. :mad:

:D or alternatively

http://forums.newtek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=125591&d=1416563129

GraphXs
11-21-2014, 05:32 AM
Lightwave Rocks!...oh wait...what was this post about???...Oh yeah...Lightwave Rocks! :lwicon:

The New Lightwave marketing should be.....
--Shut up and go make something cool, just like the Lightwave developers are!--

Waves of light
11-21-2014, 05:49 AM
Lightwave Rocks!...oh wait...what was this post about???...Oh yeah...Lightwave Rocks! :lwicon:

The New Lightwave marketing should be.....
--Shut up and go make something cool, just like the Lightwave developers are!--

Something like this (from Lino):
http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?144476-LightWave-tribute-to-Rosetta!!

Surrealist.
11-21-2014, 12:23 PM
OK post #6.

Yeah, the answer to everything is be quiet and get back to work.

LightWave is missing some key features, makes it more difficult to get X done. This feature has existed for ages in other packages, is it not time to get this in LW?:

Answer - be quiet and get back to work.

Sure would like to get some kind of update - at least occasionally.

Answer - be quiet and get back to work.

Major change in the development dynamics. One of of the bright spots - in many people's eyes - has left and is starting his own application. What does this mean for LightWave? Anything? Any kind of sales pitch, pep talk, let us know it is all under control - because the current developers are doing X.... anyone? Beuler?

Answer - be quiet and get back to work.

Feature requests, discussions about various issues in the industry. Comparisons in features between apps. Basically a lot of the things we enjoy talking about when we ARE DONE working, or on a break and that enhance our understanding not only of each other and how we work but give us a broader view of software and the industry.

Answer - be quiet and get back to work.

Hmmm... some kind of obsession with work around here. Surely, some of you people eat?

Ebb and flow, give and take, work and rest, talking and listening. It is all part of life and what makes it worth living. But I suppose the answer to that age old philosophy is, you guessed it:

Answer - be quiet and get back to work.

BokadCastle
11-21-2014, 01:23 PM
I think you've answered your own questions quite well.

tyrot
11-21-2014, 01:43 PM
dude - be quite and get back to work... doesnt work that much.. the reason - why we talk about something is directly making us crazy at work - so -

Also sorry but im a bit scared of reading "making fundamental changes for adding things later..." ok .. i know what it means...

Megalodon2.0
11-21-2014, 03:32 PM
I think you've answered your own questions quite well.

Well let's be honest... anyone who thinks that his answers to himself - "be quiet and get back to work" is answering "quite well"... doesn't really care about how LW3DG deals with customers and making interaction better.

Basically you're saying "let's keep the status quo and accept everything we're told without questioning anything."

Surrealist.
11-21-2014, 04:16 PM
It is just hypocrisy is all. Lets not forget all you people who have taken the time to read these posts are in fact, not working while you read them, likely, you move on to another section of the forum (after you have posted here to tell us just to get back to work), read some more and then get back to work. Meanwhile the people who care, spend that time at least doing something productive on this forum with the time and say things that need to be said. This is after all a forum and that is why it is here.

tyrot
11-21-2014, 04:46 PM
actually i consider reading this forum as a work :) (at least free RD:))

djwaterman
11-21-2014, 06:13 PM
Also sorry but im a bit scared of reading "making fundamental changes for adding things later..." ok .. i know what it means...

This basically illustrates why LW3DG shouldn't communicate openly with the user base about development. See how a bit of communication doesn't produce confidence but worry for this user.

I'm really only interested in hard facts about an existing product, not conjecture based on vague promises. There's no issue with starting threads that illustrate a known deficiency and call for it to be addressed in future releases, that's very useful. Threads that call for LW to start openly giving up it's development direction, coupled with hinted threats of "or I will have to leave you" can not be taken seriously. It's been stated fairly often by others, that there is software out there right now that can do what you want, if your business is at the point of needing to make a decision today, then make that decision, you can't expect LW3DG to alter their business plan (talk only when we have a product to talk about) to accommodate your business plan.

jeric_synergy
11-21-2014, 06:28 PM
This basically illustrates why LW3DG shouldn't communicate openly with the user base about development. See how a bit of communication doesn't produce confidence but worry for this user.
.... and everything else you said.

I'd much rather read about roadblocks that are CURRENTLY stopping people in mid-production, so I can watch RH, Swampy, and others solve them with, seemingly, a languid wave of their mouse.

Megalodon2.0
11-21-2014, 06:40 PM
This basically illustrates why LW3DG shouldn't communicate openly with the user base about development. See how a bit of communication doesn't produce confidence but worry for this user.

I'm really only interested in hard facts about an existing product, not conjecture based on vague promises. There's no issue with starting threads that illustrate a known deficiency and call for it to be addressed in future releases, that's very useful. Threads that call for LW to start openly giving up it's development direction, coupled with hinted threats of "or I will have to leave you" can not be taken seriously. It's been stated fairly often by others, that there is software out there right now that can do what you want, if your business is at the point of needing to make a decision today, then make that decision, you can't expect LW3DG to alter their business plan (talk only when we have a product to talk about) to accommodate your business plan.


.... and everything else you said.

I'd much rather read about roadblocks that are CURRENTLY stopping people in mid-production, so I can watch RH, Swampy, and others solve them with, seemingly, a languid wave of their mouse.

No. This just means that LW3DG has created an atmosphere where EVERYTHING they state is dissected because they say NOTHING. When you have a weekly/monthly discussion of the work being done these fears can EASILY be alleviated. Treating everyone like children and refusing to interact with your userbase is obviously not working.

And ONE PERSON says he's "a bit scared" about those changes. ONE? Wow. Most here did understand what "deep changes" involved and I don't recall anyone else here being "scared." Yet you two jump on this and say "see... this is WHY LW3DG needs to keep silent." Really? Really? Give me a frakkin' break.

BokadCastle
11-21-2014, 06:46 PM
Well let's be honest... anyone who thinks that his answers to himself - "be quiet and get back to work" is answering "quite well"... doesn't really care about how LW3DG deals with customers and making interaction better.

Basically you're saying "let's keep the status quo and accept everything we're told without questioning anything."

um...when I was in America, I learnt that before I told a joke to hold up a sign saying "JOKE COMING".

- - - Updated - - -


I think you've answered your own questions quite well.

Allow me therefore to repost.

BokadCastle
11-21-2014, 06:47 PM
I think you've answered your own questions quite well.

JOKE COMING.


]I think you've answered your own questions quite well.

Megalodon2.0
11-21-2014, 06:51 PM
um...when I was in America, I learnt that before I told a joke to hold up a sign saying "JOKE COMING".

- - - Updated - - -



Allow me therefore to repost.

Yeah... it was so blatantly obvious.... not. Maybe try using a smiley next time? :twak:

Oedo 808
11-21-2014, 06:58 PM
If you get a large enough group of people together and tell them you'll give them each 100,000 on the count of three if they all put a finger in their mouth, there's going to be someone who ends up with his thumb stuck up his arse instead. What I mean, is that, there is always going to be some complainant or stupid comment, those guys at LightWave need to learn to weigh up what is said and balance it against whether it's got any foundation and whether whoever said it has much credibility. I think if they had done that in the past they'd have felt a little less bitten.

Generally I'd agree about revealing plans, but I think LightWave's weakness in Modeler polygon handling is something that goes beyond many other complaints you might see about other applications, obviously not for all tasks but remember the thread about that chap who was said to give critique in a constructive way over at Modo? For people like him even Modo doesn't have the polygon handling required now. I wonder how much more the 64bit ZBrush might be able to spit out. And even though it may some time before people were to see what they wanted with Layout, unification is essential to knowing that what they want can even happen, at any length of time.

Trouble is, the natives may be getting restless, but we're more like the Aztec than the Navajo, so who cares, we can moan all we like but it's more of a mouse's fart than the breath of God.


Blah.

Be quiet and get back to work.


Yeah... it was so blatantly obvious.... not. Maybe try using a smiley next time? :twak:

If he could come anywhere even close to being funny, then it wouldn't be necessary.

BokadCastle
11-21-2014, 06:59 PM
good debate...

your President is an arse-hole with ears.

jeric_synergy
11-21-2014, 07:02 PM
::sigh:: Re-populating my kill file.

shrox
11-21-2014, 07:07 PM
good debate...

your President is an arse-hole with ears.

Be polite.

125610

BokadCastle
11-21-2014, 07:14 PM
I hope that wasn't too subtle for american devotees.
Call me.

Megalodon2.0
11-21-2014, 07:16 PM
good debate...

your President is an arse-hole with ears.

Oh... is THAT a joke?

hahahahahahaha


I hope that wasn't too subtle for american devotees.
Call me.

I would, but I don't use that kind of language on a public forum. BAM!

BokadCastle
11-21-2014, 07:17 PM
Be polite.

125610

You clearly haven't heard what that kunt did to my country G20.

Oedo 808
11-21-2014, 07:22 PM
You clearly haven't heard what that kunt did to my country G20.

I would suspect this is just a puerile attempt to get a thread you don't like, locked.

If they have any sense they'll leave it as it is and suspend your account instead.

What a shame that would be.

BokadCastle
11-21-2014, 07:23 PM
Let me rephrase that...
your President is a fack-wit.

Megalodon2.0
11-21-2014, 07:26 PM
I would suspect this is just a puerile attempt to get a thread you don't like, locked.

If they have any sense they'll leave it as it is and suspend your account instead.

What a shame that would be.

Now THAT made me chuckle. :)

Yeah, intentional use of disgusting language was probably used in an attempt to close the thread. I'd rather see the post deleted and him warned. Though I was suspended for less. ;)

BokadCastle
11-21-2014, 07:31 PM
Now THAT made me chuckle. :)

Yeah, intentional use of disgusting language was probably used in an attempt to close the thread. I'd rather see the post deleted and him warned. Though I was suspended for less. ;)

idiot.

Oedo 808
11-21-2014, 07:35 PM
idiot.

You have a point, after all he did make an appeal for leniency on your behalf.

BokadCastle
11-21-2014, 07:36 PM
I would suspect this is just a puerile attempt to get a thread you don't like, locked.

If they have any sense they'll leave it as it is and suspend your account instead.

What a shame that would be.

another american boofhead.

shrox
11-21-2014, 07:42 PM
I don't mind hearing a low opinion someone might have, but I don't care for calling people ugly, or making semi-racial remarks. While "ears" thing may have just been calling him silly, in America some will equate that with racism. It just how we are...

Oedo 808
11-21-2014, 07:44 PM
another american boofhead.

Yes, I'm just having tea with President Cameron and the Queen.

BokadCastle
11-21-2014, 07:57 PM
I don't mind hearing a low opinion someone might have, but I don't care for calling people ugly, or making semi-racial remarks. While "ears" thing may have just been calling him silly, in America some will equate that with racism. It just how we are...
I come from a country that has no history of slavery.
Consequently there is no African population here.
Obviously that makes me a racist, according to some of you.

BokadCastle
11-21-2014, 08:00 PM
Yes, I'm just having tea with President Cameron and the Queen.

President Cameron.
Idiot.

BokadCastle
11-21-2014, 08:03 PM
Squashed, anyone more?

Megalodon2.0
11-21-2014, 08:05 PM
You clearly haven't heard what that kunt did to my country G20.

Reported.

You would be wise to calm down and stop posting for the evening. But that is just a suggestion.

VonBon
11-21-2014, 08:06 PM
I come from a country that has no history of slavery.
Consequently there is no African population here.
Obviously that makes me a racist, according to some of you.

I don't think your a racist, and wouldn't care if you were,
because here in America you have the right to think what you want.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7eubc-Yk3M

Oedo 808
11-21-2014, 08:07 PM
President Cameron.
Idiot.

Don't pretend you know President Cameron.

shrox
11-21-2014, 08:09 PM
I come from a country that has no history of slavery.
Consequently there is no African population here.
Obviously that makes me a racist, according to some of you.

Not by me, I have actually traveled outside the Imperial Empire..err I mean the USA. But yes, some take offense even at a commercial featuring non-Caucasians, or only Caucasians, or one Caucasian and a anything you can think of.

I like cats.

SBowie
11-21-2014, 08:12 PM
You would be wise to calm down and stop posting for the evening. But that is just a suggestion.And a good one. And let's all leave it at that, shall we? This is not a suggestion.

spherical
11-21-2014, 10:29 PM
Wow. Thanks, Steve. One can always hope.

THAT said...

I come from a country that has no history of slavery.
Consequently there is no African population here.

Really... I'd welcome a proof of that.

Amurrell
11-21-2014, 10:41 PM
Really... I'd welcome a proof of that.

Maybe he would like this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_Australian

Major countries of birth of African immigrants to Australia (2006 Census) Country Population Main city and proportion who live there
South Africa 104,128 Sydney (27.3%)
Egypt 33,497 Sydney (48.5%)
Zimbabwe 20,157 Perth (24.7%)
Sudan 19,049 Melbourne (31.0%)
Mauritius 18,175 Melbourne (48.6%)
Kenya 9,940 Perth (26.9%)
Ethiopia 5,633 Melbourne (53.9%)
Somalia 4,316 Melbourne (60.1%)
Zambia 4,082 Perth (30.7%)
Ghana 2,771 Sydney (51.0%)

Guess the argument doesn't work.

shrox
11-21-2014, 10:51 PM
https://scontent-a-dfw.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/v/t1.0-9/1390556_609844945738219_1656259956_n.jpg?oh=16957f 6f43beff4b882f137f1d612edd&oe=551529BD

Megalodon2.0
11-22-2014, 12:02 AM
https://scontent-a-dfw.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/v/t1.0-9/1390556_609844945738219_1656259956_n.jpg?oh=16957f 6f43beff4b882f137f1d612edd&oe=551529BD

Excellent! :thumbsup:

motivalex
11-22-2014, 12:26 AM
I think somebody was having a bit of a Friday drink while posting and got carried away. lol.

erikals
11-22-2014, 02:00 AM
well, one thing is for sure though, Ikeda's app must now be some kind of inspiration to NT/LWG

it must make them question where they should go next

like, was there any of his arguments from working with NT/LWG that should be reconsidered? [rhetorical]

but for the ones who question why NT/LWG couldn't do the same thing
it's just way too early i think to draw conclusions of an app that is at such an early stage, for example,
the application still needs 100+ modeling tools and tons of animation tools.

also Ikeda basically stated himself, an app like the one he is making nowhere near as advanced/complex as Core,
where NT, including Ikeda, aimed too high (Core got too advanced/complex)

it's also much easier to write an app from scratch, rather than to try to adapt new functions into an old app.

so while i understand questioning NT/LWG, it really isn't quite fair

i'm not discussing Ikeda's application here, rather trying to explain why the grass looks so much greener
on the other side. it's more like thick green patches, with large empty areas. a great start, but that's it, a start.

Surrealist.
11-22-2014, 02:32 AM
I don't think people want greener grass. I think people want something to believe in again. There are already plenty of pastures to graze in. What David is offering is something with definite - though lofty - goals. That is inspiring.

His success will depend on getting support. And I think he can - if he continues - succeed. Because people want and need something that is setting clear goals based on innovative ideas. I think we would all agree that we'd like to see a new app emerge that raises the bar. It would really be exiting. And I love his reference to Zbrush. It is a valid point.

tyrot
11-22-2014, 03:06 AM
ok im not scared:)... ill be quite and wait..

erikals nt wont take any advice from anybody..anytime..
https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=344398105733158&id=100004889147964

OnlineRender
11-22-2014, 03:22 AM
well, one thing is for sure though, Ikeda's app must now be some kind of inspiration to NT/LWG



or potentially a legal nightmare and headache ?...

anyway I refuse to engage any further for good reasons, same sh*T different day, much prefer the LW_facebook (http://facebook.com/groups/lightwiki)groups, artwork being posted is amazing ,content flow is top quality.. the element of nearly real-time keeps the noise down to a low level and if it get's silly generally the community just tell them shut up and that derives because facebook is much more personal and not hidding behind avatars "so to speak".
I love this forum , I respect the community but some need a good kick in the arse! "myself included at times"

this was uploaded and shared yesterday by Chris Bronson to FB wiki ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSNTCTYVojo

http://www.mediafire.com/download/ca9jfy1c9swmhmy/Fly.zip

alexos
11-22-2014, 04:55 AM
... While "ears" thing may have just been calling him silly, in America some will equate that with racism. It just how we are...

Sorry, I know this is only going to decrease the thread's survival chance, but - I mean - WHY?!
I mean, I'm all for not using people's physical characteristics or (supposed) "flaws" as a talking point, so yeah, ears remarks belong to first graders and all that, but - racist? How so?

[disclaimer: I come from a country that definitely has a history of slavery, except we sort of enslaved each other. Err... Yeah, put it that way it doesn't sound very smart and I struggle to understand how it might be relevant to anything, but, you know, just in case...]

ADP.

SBowie
11-22-2014, 07:29 AM
Sorry, I know this is only going to decrease the thread's survival chance, but - I mean - WHY?!Let's drop this, shall we. If you must have an answer, use a PM to inquire.

kadri
11-22-2014, 09:15 AM
I just want to say that maybe the management of Newtek-Lightwave does has probably seen-know
the general negativity here around and have chosen to answer with the only way by being quiet and making a new good release.
I just think in this age of communicating they have gone too far on the quiet front as we can hear this and that
from other sources and that doesn't do much good if you ask me.

In the Terragen forums Matt (to lesser degree) and Oshyan are all the time there and
help in this or that way and i have only seen pleased users from this approach.

We are not only forum users we are customers too and sometimes
even you know that the dealers smile is only a professional mask we still like to see it and to hear about the next toys.
And yeah unfortunately sometimes it is hard to deal with rude customers.

Waves of light
11-22-2014, 09:22 AM
I know that they're not on the forums as much as they used to be, because most threads seem to be instantly turned into a slagging match the moment anything is mentioned about progress or lack of progress etc. Even Matt's last post, in which he basically said they're working hard on a new version, plus new stuff for future versions ended up gained negative responses.

So why bother, there efforts can be put into coding etc. instead.

erikals
11-22-2014, 10:04 AM
nt wont take any advice from anybody..anytime..
https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=344398105733158&id=100004889147964
updates and fundamental changes

i'm not so sure, i wasn't told where, but i was told they used some of my ideas in the past.
i think if you want NT/LWG to make changes or updates, it can be a good idea to present things visually,
like i've done in some Youtube videos and FogBugz videos.
not sure how Ikeda presented his changes to NT, but i know poorly explained features won't get you far.
now, i'm not saying he did that, just saying there is no way for you and me to know.
of course, i assume if so, that would be part of the reason, and not the full one. many sides to a story.

and in tough times (LW10 / LW11) you do want to add Bells and Whistles, while waiting with fundamental changes.
i think Rob did a fantastic job here, and i support him 100%. this is marketing "101"
no-one (few) is going to buy a LW11 with no new features, other than adding a fundamental change.

you want an income in order to survive after a Core crash, for then to add fundamental changes.
ok, so when are these changes going to be added then, when will we see them?
scroll down to the bottom of this post.


a small recap

take Core for example, NT left that behind and continued LightWave.
Ikeda supported leaving the Core idea in the end.
Core aimed too high, it didn't resemble the previous LightWave in any way, Jay Roth left

LightWave was then continued, Rob jumped onboard
LW10 gets VPR, Linear Color Space, Virtual Studio Tools, etc
it's a huge task, luckily VPR saves the day for many, a big 3-year LW upgrade discount is given

Bells and Whistles is added in LW11
but they are great, Instancing, FiberFX Enhancements, Flocking, Bullet, GoZ, more...
LW11.6 adds Genoma, Spline Control, RayCast, Unified Sampling, Shadow Catcher,
Heat Shrink, Axis Translate, Axis Scale, Transform tool, Chamfer, Place Mesh, Thicken,
ABF Unwrap, Align to Plane, Select by Normal, Pick Surface, Color Picker,
Variable Line Thickness (for cartoon/celshade renders), Compound Nodes, Python, more...

LightWave 12...
what can we expect? well, to quote someone from NT/LWG >
"deep changes that will bear fruit in future releases"

so, we might have had a rough start, but as for the future of LightWave,
things seem to be on track, maybe not perfect, but on track

jeric_synergy
11-22-2014, 10:40 AM
Good summation by erikals.

Apparently there's a lot more work/time involved in revamping the foundations than we supposed. I believe in the LW3dG team's sense of the correct direction.

While there's VERY LITTLE UPSIDE to interacting w/the forum, given the idiots that love to rant here, I do think part of SOMEBODY'S (anybody's!) job at LW3dG should be to helpfully stir the pot by carefully ("Hurt Locker" carefully) dribble out tidbits of helpful messaging to indicate that indeed someone is at the office. I'd think that would be a marketing function, "customer/user service" type stuff.

It doesn't even need to be forward looking: just showing us the stuff many many of us seem to have missed in EXISTING features would be plenty. For me, this would slot in nicely with supervision of MANUAL ADDENDUMS-- if the users aren't seeing something in the manuals, the manuals need some revision.

EVEN just pointing out good YouTube videos, with a stamp of approval from LW3dG, would be worthwhile-- it doesn't get much easier than THAT.

shrox
11-22-2014, 11:03 AM
Sorry, I know this is only going to decrease the thread's survival chance, but - I mean - WHY?!
I mean, I'm all for not using people's physical characteristics or (supposed) "flaws" as a talking point, so yeah, ears remarks belong to first graders and all that, but - racist? How so?

[disclaimer: I come from a country that definitely has a history of slavery, except we sort of enslaved each other. Err... Yeah, put it that way it doesn't sound very smart and I struggle to understand how it might be relevant to anything, but, you know, just in case...]

ADP.

Because many Americans now think in short sound byte. So they can see it as: "Ears? President? Racist!"

That also diminishes what can be seen as funny.

Here is cat that just doesn't care:

125622

erikals
11-22-2014, 11:18 AM
can we please skip the racist vs non-racist discussion here ?

nothing too personal, but i'm going to report those posts from now on.

hope that's ok with everyone.

pinkmouse
11-22-2014, 11:26 AM
I would be quite happy to wait for 12, if they'd only release a bugfix for 11. I'm getting quite bored of Fogging stuff only to be told, "Oh that's sorted in the current build..."

jeric_synergy
11-22-2014, 11:33 AM
It HAS been awhile, hasn't it?

Egregious, well characterized bugs would be nice to kill. NO NEW FEATURES!!! Just patches! :)

Vong
11-22-2014, 12:08 PM
I would be quite happy to wait for 12, if they'd only release a bugfix for 11. I'm getting quite bored of Fogging stuff only to be told, "Oh that's sorted in the current build..."

+1 gazillion!!!!!!!

I was told back in June that my show-stopper bug was fixed in internal builds, but they had no idea when a public release would happen. So I've been (patiently?) waiting.

jeric_synergy
11-22-2014, 12:54 PM
+1 gazillion!!!!!!!

I was told back in June that my show-stopper bug was fixed in internal builds, but they had no idea when a public release would happen. So I've been (patiently?) waiting.
Has it been that long (since a dot-release)?

Vong
11-22-2014, 01:11 PM
Has it been that long (since a dot-release)?

11.6.3 was released in early May, which was just a licensing fix. 11.6.2 was released in March. So, yeah! :thumbsup:

shrox
11-22-2014, 01:35 PM
I have been staying with 9.6, mainly because of what I read about problems with 11+. Will 12 be a version that is stable and fully working?

spherical
11-22-2014, 02:03 PM
Even Matt's last post, in which he basically said they're working hard on a new version, plus new stuff for future versions ended up gained negative responses.

So why bother, there efforts can be put into coding etc. instead.

OK, please try to take this constructively. It, and the post previous in another thread, were a good start.... IF it's a start. If it drops right there, it's just paying lip service. I mean, what are they going to say otherwise: "We're all sitting around goofing off and picking our noses." ?

The point here is, that tech secrecy does not have to be breached in order to inform the userbase on what is happening on their behalf. Mountaintops can certainly be addressed without divulging details on anything proprietary or cluing the competition. Things Like: (this is an example, so I have to extrapolate)


"Modeler tools are being revamped for better workflow. Many of you have asked for changes in this area and we are making things easier to work with. It is difficult working in an existing codebase, because care must be taken to not break anything that users rely upon until there is an improved replacement for a function or tool. At some point, the old code just has to be left behind, but we are making this transition as painless as possible.

Some of the FogBug tickets fixed in the next release are:

list off the ones
that many users
would be very happy
to know have been
addressed

(zero tech disclosure, because the tech already exists)

On the rendering side, we have made improvements on memory footprint and CPU load. A new camera has been developed that we cannot talk about right now, but it's cool."


None of this says anything about sensitive information, yet it does communicate in broad terms some of what is happening that users can look forward to. It lets us know that the devs are interested in, nay excited about, the changes and improvements that they are crafting. Without "giving away the farm", it engages the userbase and whets their appetite. It keeps us and prospective buyers engaged. Certainly nothing wrong with that. As long as new tools that have been developed or speculative tools that haven't been fully developed are left out of it (because that would be a tech disclosure) it definitely does not go against the "we are not going to divulge anything lest we get busted for not delivering or give information to the enemy" kneejerk lockdown.

Time for the pendulum to swing in the opposite direction. It can only be good.

Ztreem
11-22-2014, 03:14 PM
OK, please try to take this constructively. It, and the post previous in another thread, were a good start.... IF it's a start. If it drops right there, it's just paying lip service. I mean, what are they going to say otherwise: "We're all sitting around goofing off and picking our noses." ?

The point here is, that tech secrecy does not have to be breached in order to inform the userbase on what is happening on their behalf. Mountaintops can certainly be addressed without divulging details on anything proprietary or cluing the competition. Things Like: (this is an example, so I have to extrapolate)



None of this says anything about sensitive information, yet it does communicate in broad terms some of what is happening that users can look forward to. It lets us know that the devs are interested in, nay excited about, the changes and improvements that they are crafting. Without "giving away the farm", it engages the userbase and whets their appetite. It keeps us and prospective buyers engaged. Certainly nothing wrong with that. As long as new tools that have been developed or speculative tools that haven't been fully developed are left out of it (because that would be a tech disclosure) it definitely does not go against the "we are not going to divulge anything lest we get busted for not delivering or give information to the enemy" kneejerk lockdown.

Time for the pendulum to swing in the opposite direction. It can only be good.

+1

kadri
11-22-2014, 03:22 PM
Exactly as above.This shouldn't be so hard.

Megalodon2.0
11-22-2014, 03:25 PM
The point here is, that tech secrecy does not have to be breached in order to inform the userbase on what is happening on their behalf. Mountaintops can certainly be addressed without divulging details on anything proprietary or cluing the competition. Things Like: (this is an example, so I have to extrapolate)

<snip>

None of this says anything about sensitive information, yet it does communicate in broad terms some of what is happening that users can look forward to. It lets us know that the devs are interested in, nay excited about, the changes and improvements that they are crafting. Without "giving away the farm", it engages the userbase and whets their appetite. It keeps us and prospective buyers engaged. Certainly nothing wrong with that. As long as new tools that have been developed or speculative tools that haven't been fully developed are left out of it (because that would be a tech disclosure) it definitely does not go against the "we are not going to divulge anything lest we get busted for not delivering or give information to the enemy" kneejerk lockdown.

Time for the pendulum to swing in the opposite direction. It can only be good.

BINGO!

This is pretty much all we've been saying. If other developers can take a LITTLE bit of time and interact constructively, it can be done here with the LW3DG as well. It's just a matter of CHOOSING to do so. Obviously the total silence (sorry, one or two posts within a thread are not interacting) is not working. You don't have to be transparent with your userbase, but you DO need to let them know a little bit here and there on a regular basis.

hazmat777
11-22-2014, 03:46 PM
I've mentioned this before, but I don't think I got a response from anyone. What's this obsession with not going to break "old code"? I mean, it's not like your old version of LW will magically disappear and become un-usable. Sure, some of your plug-ins might not work anymore, but I think most users would put progress first and wait for the plug-ins to be updated or just export the critical parts to your old LW for that particular function. Can someone clue me in please?

Oedo 808
11-22-2014, 04:05 PM
I've mentioned this before, but I don't think I got a response from anyone. What's this obsession with not going to break "old code"? I mean, it's not like your old version of LW will magically disappear and become un-usable. Sure, some of your plug-ins might not work anymore, but I think most users would put progress first and wait for the plug-ins to be updated or just export the critical parts to your old LW for that particular function. Can someone clue me in please?

Is there a particular comment to which you are referring? If you quote it maybe someone can help you out.

I'm not sure anyone has actually suggested not implementing unification or a history stack simply because it may break plug-ins, but looking at what a paltry effort has been demonstrated with the development of Modeler tools in recent years, you'd be a fool not to feel some trepidation.

Not to mention that if they think they can keep plug-ins functioning while upgrading, it's a lot of work that doesn't have to be duplicated.

vncnt
11-22-2014, 04:08 PM
If other developers can take a LITTLE bit of time and interact constructively, it can be done here with the LW3DG as well.

Can you give an example of a company?

kadri
11-22-2014, 04:23 PM
Terragen for example. It is a small company but they always communicate and help users if they have problems.
They don't say always that they will do this or that in the future but sometimes they even say things like that.
It is more about the presence that they are there and care for the users.
Of course not every company does have to do the same but i feel more "loyalty" for the software in that approach.

I think the problem here in this forum is the problematic past and really the only real cure
looks more like strong 1-2 Lightwave versions then any other thing to me at this stage.

Megalodon2.0
11-22-2014, 04:38 PM
Can you give an example of a company?

Have you checked out Luxology, now under The Foundry. Brad is ALWAYS in the forums interacting with customers and answering questions - not specifics generally, but letting people know what is going on. And of course there's 3D Coat where Andrew is ALWAYS there talking. And if you go through this and other threads there are others who state the same with other companies. Yes, there are definitely companies that say little to nothing. And... I would rather they didn't. ;)

hazmat777
11-22-2014, 04:43 PM
Is there a particular comment to which you are referring? If you quote it maybe someone can help you out.

I'm not sure anyone has actually suggested not implementing unification or a history stack simply because it may break plug-ins, but looking at what a paltry effort has been demonstrated with the development of Modeler tools in recent years, you'd be a fool not to feel some trepidation.

Not to mention that if they think they can keep plug-ins functioning while upgrading, it's a lot of work that doesn't have to be duplicated.

No particular comment I can find right now. But it seems like I've read it several times in different threads from NT and users as well, sorry I don't have an exact quote right now.:o

spherical
11-22-2014, 08:08 PM
I've mentioned this before, but I don't think I got a response from anyone. What's this obsession with not going to break "old code"?

It isn't an "obsession". It is a choice. It's a courtesy. Respecting the userbase and caring how they work by providing smooth transitions to new ways of doing things is the better way; although it doesn't allow as fast advancements in the tech. There are companies who just effectively say: "screw you, that is out this is in... deal with it". Apple does this with their hardware. Sure, it makes for larger leaps in tech, because you're not carrying along old baggage, but the customer pays a big price. Other architectures allow for surgical, incremental upgrades along a longer timeline. It isn't as bad now as it once was, but the trend is still there.


I mean, it's not like your old version of LW will magically disappear and become un-usable. Sure, some of your plug-ins might not work anymore, but I think most users would put progress first and wait for the plug-ins to be updated or just export the critical parts to your old LW for that particular function.

It isn't only the plugins that are a concern. Native tools suddenly disappearing or no longer working as they once did isn't cool either. That is why I and many others have multiple versions parallel installed. Some users don't have that luxury or they never thought of keeping legacy versions for a rainy day. Right now, I'm in the process of trying to update a scene that I did in 8.5 to run in 11.6.2; mostly because G2 crashes LightWave on the 64-bit 9.6.1 install. Painful. It runs and renders in 9.6.1 (-G2) but I'd like to take advantage of the more recent tech. Having an issue with PRMB right now in that it produces strong, saturated colors in the blur of an essentially gray object. No clue why, yet. But I digress...

Besides, I said that I was extrapolating (making things up) as an example of how to post interactively with the userbase and not give away trade secrets until it is time. None of that is necessarily true, other than the framework of how it can be done.

jeric_synergy
11-22-2014, 08:56 PM
Spherical's suggestion and format seems reasonable, even if we forum users are Just Not That Important In The Big Scheme of Things.

I'd further suggest, to absolutely limit the workload on LW3dG's side:

Limit such communications to once a week (how about Friday?)
Limit the actual 'news' ITEMS to a mere THREE

Once a week, 3 things. Very minimal.

erikals
11-22-2014, 10:07 PM
LightWave 12
http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?144525-Lightwave-12-is-on-the-way

Megalodon2.0
11-22-2014, 10:12 PM
Spherical's suggestion and format seems reasonable, even if we forum users are Just Not That Important In The Big Scheme of Things.

I'd further suggest, to absolutely limit the workload on LW3dG's side:

Limit such communications to once a week (how about Friday?)
Limit the actual 'news' ITEMS to a mere THREE

Once a week, 3 things. Very minimal.

Which is pretty much exactly what I said many posts ago:

http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?144465-That-was-not-nice-LW3DG!&p=1408969&viewfull=1#post1408969

This would be FAR better than no information at all. But it all depends on if LW3DG is actually LISTENING to their customers or just flipping us the bird believing that their way is the best way and that "the majority" prefers silence as opposed to actual customer interaction.

GandB
11-22-2014, 10:15 PM
Can't view the thread Erikals.

erikals
11-22-2014, 10:27 PM
strange, reads fine here...

edit, ah, sorry, seems it's posted in the LightWave Membership Zone
Forum > LightWave Membership Zone > General Discussions

the short story, to quote >

Even though the upgrade cycle to LightWave 11.x has been available for a while now, we do not want any of you to be caught off guard by a new release. Therefore, as a courtesy, we are offering all HardCORE members still on 10.x a 30-day grace period to upgrade to 11.x instead of being automatically dropped from the program (as stated in the guidelines).

i'm sure more info will follow soon http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/smile.gif

sukardi
11-22-2014, 10:39 PM
For me, it is simple. I am using LW right now because on balance it is the best tools for me right now.

However, if there is no meaningful unification between Layout and modeler and no new engine for modeler, I don't believe it will be the best tool for me in a year's time.

I have faith that lw12 will be released before then and it will address both issues. However, every day of silence from LW3DG erodes that faith ... and I don't think I am unique in that position.

Ok. I think this will be my last post on this issue...

spherical
11-22-2014, 11:07 PM
Which is pretty much exactly what I said many posts ago:

Yes and, evidently, it needs to be repeated; perhaps in differing forms, but still the same message.

Megalodon2.0
11-23-2014, 02:50 AM
Yes and, evidently, it needs to be repeated; perhaps in differing forms, but still the same message.

Yes, you're absolutely right. LW3DG NEEDS to hear it again and again. Perhaps then they will begin to realize that silence is NOT golden. I won't hold my breath however. The arrogance of NT in the past has shown that they believe they are right and think that an alternative approach would be negative. But since they haven't tried the method many here have suggested... they can't say it won't work. If other companies can do it, so can LW3DG. And let's get rid of the notion that you can't do both - communicate AND code - like... "would you rather have LW3DG work on LW12 or talk to us" BS. It doesn't take days to work on what you want to communicate with your customers. I'm sure that Matt and/or Lino can easily come up with something each week that doesn't give away the store, but still informs us of something NEW. And considering the amount of "catch-up" LW needs, things like "improving the graphs editor" and other things are not on the list of things "we don't want our competitors to know."

Surrealist.
11-23-2014, 03:54 AM
I think that they understand the options. I am coming to the conclusion they are not comfortable with interaction and feedback.

I think it takes a certain kind of personality to can do this and wear the hat of developer and person who deals with folks outside.

I think David Ikeda is a person who can handle both, has a passion for what he is doing and a strong interest in interacting with potential users. And I have come to the conclusion that he was with a team of people not comfortable with that kind of arrangement, perhaps among other disagreements.

It is one thing if things are going well and everyone is telling you how great it is and answering simple questions, but when the going gets rough and when the work you are doing comes under scrutiny it can be hard to deal with and some people just can't.

There have been a few threads which illustrate this, but perhaps it is not fair or nice to single anyone one out. Suffice to say this is what I have observed.

Since there is a lot of ground to cover and since there are going to be compromises along the way, I am fairly certain that they are not equipped to make those hard decisions and deal with the feedback, which would be in part quite negative, given the status of LW as an app.

They probably figure at this point it is better to put the blinders on and move ahead without distraction. So I think it has more to do with that than anything.

Which does not make it right, nor the best way to go in my opinion, but I think that this is an issue they are perhaps struggling with.

By contrast, David seems comfortable with laying out the parameters within which he is developing and thus is laying he groundwork for proper discussion within the context of what he can hope to achieve.

Megalodon2.0
11-23-2014, 04:16 AM
Which does not make it right, nor the best way to go in my opinion, but I think that this is an issue they are perhaps struggling with.

I guess this is a BIG part of the problem - I don't SEE any "struggle" at all. What *I* see is a company that has set this policy of silence and they refuse to alter course. They seem to think that posting in a thread in the middle is the "interaction" we are talking about. The simple method that jeric_synergy outlined above could be EASILY implemented and nothing of extreme significance would be divulged. It may take a certain personality to "interact" with the userbase, but they do have those people in the company. Look at Steve Bowie. He would be perfect, although not a direct LW connection, he is probably the most even-tempered guy employed by NT. In fact someone like him could give weekly progress reports without a great deal of substance with the full knowledge on our part that he cannot (and will not) answer questions regarding the report - it's JUST a report without the ability to acquire additional data - but at least it would be a report that we would expect EVERY week. We would know that LW3DG is thinking about what we should know and how to say it - all the while telling us that no more details will be forthcoming and we are free to speculate to our hearts desire.

The point is... it will be something that we will expect EVERY WEEK and while it won't contain the details of "the new bullet implementation regarding fluids" it can provide small tidbits of info that we will drink up enthusiastically. It's certainly worth a shot.

ianr
11-23-2014, 04:36 AM
Maybe LW3DG should now see TOO FAR means both sides!

Maybe they should pick 3 Beta Ambassors to field large

general questions in before time so people can plan

their pipeline flows.

Kaptive
11-23-2014, 05:16 AM
I think everyone needs to accept that for this next version (at least) of Lightwave, we won't hear anything. I imagine at this point that any input would merely distract from the most important bit... finish and release.
So many people think that they know what is best for Lightwave, and some might be right. However, I put my faith in the team to do what is best, because it is their fulltime job to work it out... they get paid to think about these things. If anyone has said anything revolutionary that the devs wont have thought of, then I'd love to hear it.

The problem with communication is that it muddies the waters. If the devs go a different direction to you, the back and forth argument about it will waste a whole tonne of time and money... and there are some very opinionated people about.

If LW development was my business and I was trying to get it back into the game, I wouldn't waste time talking to people who are just repeating what I know already. Realistically, the ones who demand that LW3DG speak out probably totals around 20-30 people... at most. I can say that because this forum is probably the only place that this conversation happens. Now although I don't have figures on how many LW users are out there, but I can bet that there are between 10'000 to 100'000. So a few vocal people are not representative of the whole community. They may feel their needs are greater, and maybe they are, but that isn't LW3DGs fault though. If through this policy they lose a handfull of users, they can handle that. But they can't afford to lose pace and direction.. or they'd be dropping the ball again and losing out big time.

Discussion is distraction if you already know your direction.

The best thing you can do is help spread LW and what it can do. The more users and money being pumped in to Lightwave, the more likely that they will have the resources and money to start a conversation about the future.

erikals
11-23-2014, 06:07 AM
Realistically, the ones who demand that LW3DG speak out probably totals around 20-30 people... at most. I can say that because this forum is probably the only place that this conversation happens.
some demand it, some would like it (me)
yes, i do wonder about just how many, a pool would be in order.

and hey, here it is >
http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?144530-LWG-interaction-on-the-forums

alright, i know some are going to say "oh, you didn't include..." "why did you say..."
but surely if those people cared that much, they would have made this pool themselves

gerry_g
11-23-2014, 01:42 PM
Man I order a meal in a restaurant I don't expect the chief to pop out every ten minuets or so tell me how it's going, nor do I interpret the fact he doesn't as a sign he's done a runner, I just patiently sit and wait and see what turns up on the plate, am I doing something wrong, am I being naive, should I be yelling loud abuse in the direction of the kitchen door ?

hrgiger
11-23-2014, 01:53 PM
Man I order a meal in a restaurant I don't expect the chief to pop out every ten minuets or so tell me how it's going, nor do I interpret the fact he doesn't as a sign he's done a runner, I just patiently sit and wait and see what turns up on the plate, am I doing something wrong, am I being naive, should I be yelling loud abuse in the direction of the kitchen door ?

well not a really apt analogy since a meal is something that you use once where LW is something you use countless times, sometimes so you can afford to go into a restaurant and order a meal.

mav3rick
11-23-2014, 02:04 PM
good or no good comparison it was actually funny to imagine Rob as chef popping out while making me lw stake :)

vncnt
11-23-2014, 02:06 PM
What's this obsession with not going to break "old code"? I mean, it's not like your old version of LW will magically disappear and become un-usable.
If the LW3DG would come with an entire new approach without any link to existing software/project-data/methods, then why would I stick with this software anyway?

The LW3DG would lose all existing customers and its difficult to attract new customers when a new application is not ready or the number of separate applications would be increased.

hrgiger
11-23-2014, 02:07 PM
If LW3DG doesn't break old code for LW12, then they're just not working hard enough.

erikals
11-23-2014, 02:08 PM
good or no good comparison it was actually funny to imagine Rob as chef popping out while making me lw stake :)

hehe, true, Rob as a stressed chef running around serving LightWavers, i can see that one http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/smile.gif

motivalex
11-23-2014, 02:16 PM
Man I order a meal in a restaurant I don't expect the chief to pop out every ten minuets or so tell me how it's going, nor do I interpret the fact he doesn't as a sign he's done a runner, I just patiently sit and wait and see what turns up on the plate, am I doing something wrong, am I being naive, should I be yelling loud abuse in the direction of the kitchen door ?

Neither would I expect the chef to pop out every 10 minutes for a meal which will reach your table within 5-40 minutes (depending where you eat) and not 12 months. The last major Lightwave feature point update (11.6) was 12 months ago and last big number release was 2 years ago. So that is why some of us are excited for some news. I'm looking forward to seeing what they have done for version 12.

Surrealist.
11-23-2014, 02:42 PM
Man I order a meal in a restaurant I don't expect the chief to pop out every ten minuets or so tell me how it's going, nor do I interpret the fact he doesn't as a sign he's done a runner, I just patiently sit and wait and see what turns up on the plate, am I doing something wrong, am I being naive, should I be yelling loud abuse in the direction of the kitchen door ?

At a restaurant you order something that is on the menu. You know what you are getting. You don't go to the restaurant and wait forever just to see when and if something will come out of the kitchen that you want to eat, not being told when or even if it is anything you'd want to eat. Most people would simply leave.

A more direct analogy. Although not true at a chain restaurant that hires short order cooks, the key to being a great chef is to interact and be social. That is the only way. They go hand in hand and for this reason at restaurants where you could make the chef analogy, they are there every day interacting in the dining room and have a staff working under them. That is how they got where they are. Interaction. That takes being social. Not locking oneself up in the kitchen and dreaming up the next meal.

Most of the best things in life come from people who can balance being social and interacting and hunkering down behind closed doors. You can not have it one way or the other Though, some do try. Flori comes to mind. And in these cases, usually other people pick up the ball.

hrgiger
11-23-2014, 02:50 PM
double post.

hrgiger
11-23-2014, 02:59 PM
Nevermind. In any event, if Newtek has something to announce soon, will be anxious to see what's going on.

erikals
11-23-2014, 03:06 PM
LightWave 12
http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?144525-Lightwave-12-is-on-the-way

there's gonna be some LW news on Monday

Megalodon2.0
11-23-2014, 03:17 PM
there's gonna be some LW news on Monday

I'm not allowed to access the page. Must be on the CORE forums where I was banned years ago. Oh well....:dance:

erikals
11-23-2014, 03:31 PM
regarding Monday,
it's basically Liberty3D saying there will be some LW news on Monday

KurtF
11-23-2014, 07:19 PM
All posters could boycott the forums. New posts would dry up, and Newtek might begin to wonder where we all went.

jeric_synergy
11-23-2014, 07:35 PM
All posters could boycott the forums. New posts would dry up, and Newtek might begin to wonder where we all went.
ahahahahahahahahaha.... as if!!! They are addicted to their own drama.

jboudreau
11-23-2014, 07:38 PM
If you read and watch the commercial below that Liberty3D was hinting at in their news letter regarding the possibly upsetting news on Monday.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zThF-cVzm8

It's about waiting and waiting for something only to get everything you asked for except one thing.

I think the news is that they are going to add lots of great stuff to lightwave 12 and other future releases of lightwave except one (the one most people have been wanting for a very long time) Having unification. I think they are going to tell us that they are not going to have layout and modeler as one application and it will always be two separate apps.

Thanks,
Jason

hrgiger
11-23-2014, 07:54 PM
I think the news is that they are going to add lots of great stuff to lightwave 12 and other future releases of lightwave except one (the one most people have been wanting for a very long time) Having unification. I think they are going to tell us that they are not going to have layout and modeler as one application and it will always be two separate apps.



Well, two things I would say to that...

One, them saying that they've decided to never have unification would just be another way of saying, we've decided to not give LightWave a real future.

Two, if the news is that they've decided to not unify the LightWave architecture, then Liberty 3D wouldn't be saying its bad news. I know Kat finds the idea of a unified LightWave pretty much unnecessary. Or at least, that's the impression I've gotten when unification has come up here and on Skype. Feel free to correct me if I'm mistaken Kat.

Either way, Nobody should be hoping for a unified 12, they said it would take more time then that.

erikals
11-23-2014, 08:03 PM
It's about waiting and waiting for something only to get everything you asked for except one thing.
like instead of Unification, Integration ?

ah, reading on

Having unification
yeah, but we knew that. well, many of us at least...


I think they are going to tell us that they are not going to have layout and modeler as one application
well, Rob already did that one year ago, in the Japan presentation, linked it many times,
but for the ones that missed it >
Japan D-Storm presentation - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRu_R3RubYI#t=4m33s

so yes, it seems there will be Integration long before Unification
Unification will happen waay down the line...

jboudreau
11-23-2014, 08:03 PM
Well, two things I would say to that...

One, them saying that they've decided to never have unification would just be another way of saying, we've decided to not give LightWave a real future.

Two, if the news is that they've decided to not unify the LightWave architecture, then Liberty 3D wouldn't be saying its bad news. I know Kat finds the idea of a unified LightWave pretty much unnecessary.

Yeah I think you are right on the first thing but for the second thing, they also say that everyone is not happy about it except one which could be Kat himself. I don't know I'm just speculating. I guess we will find out tomorrow

Jason

jboudreau
11-23-2014, 08:11 PM
like instead of Unification, Integration ?

ah, reading on

yeah, but we knew that. we'll many of us at least...


well, Rob already did that one year ago, in the Japan presentation, linked it many times,
but for the ones that missed it >
Japan D-Storm presentation - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRu_R3RubYI#t=4m33s

Yeah what I meant about unification is making both apps into one app (which you're right Rob already did that.) But I think some people still believe that it should be one app and believe that could be coming which I don't think it will. Now that doesn't mean that I don't think it won't work together, for example being able to use modeler tools in layout and be able to move vertices, edges polygons etc in layout. Basically all the tools working together between the two 2 apps basically acting like one app but not just being one app alone.

I guess we'll find out on Monday

Jason

erikals
11-23-2014, 08:21 PM
yes, and could be many things...

LW going rental
LW joins X-company
Integration instead of Unification
LW price increase
NT / LWG split

etc etc...

jboudreau
11-23-2014, 08:23 PM
yes, and could be many things...

LW going rental
LW joins X-company
Integration instead of Unification
LW price increase

etc etc...

Yes it could definitely be anyone of those

Jason

ncr100
11-23-2014, 09:03 PM
ahahahahahahahahaha.... as if!!! They are addicted to their own drama.

http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/Bill-Hader-Eating-Popcorn-Smiling-SNL.gif

Oedo 808
11-23-2014, 09:50 PM
What, speculation and no mention of Autodesk!?

vncnt
11-23-2014, 10:36 PM
Ah. Thanks for using the forbidden A-word.

jwiede
11-23-2014, 10:42 PM
I would be quite happy to wait for 12, if they'd only release a bugfix for 11. I'm getting quite bored of Fogging stuff only to be told, "Oh that's sorted in the current build..."

QFA! This is getting ridiculous. Telling customers their bugs are "fixed in current build", KNOWING there will not be a release of such fixes to customers any time remotely soon, is just downright disrespectful. It's basically saying "nyah! nyah! We fixed your bug but you can't have it!" at that point.

LW3DG needs to either acknowledge the bugs are fixed and that a patch release for them is coming in some measurable period, or acknowledge that while the issue may be fixed internally it is unlikely customers will receive the fix any time soon -- esp. when they know the fix won't be released before the next paid upgrade.

50one
11-24-2014, 01:49 AM
The drama continues.

I have a stupid question, why LW3D is not doing what other companies are doing? Ya know OPEN BETA for closed crowd? That way die hard users can test it before the release, rather than rely on few(maybe less) folks in QA and user contribution to fogbugz and not giving any estimates about when the release with fixed bug will e available to general public.


I cannot wait for the news, although I'm not sure why is this coming from Kat - is he working with LW3DG or something? why is this not coming from Lino or Matt?

erikals
11-24-2014, 01:58 AM
Kat - is he working with LW3DG or something?
he was probably part of the LW12 beta team, i have no idea how large that was/is though...

50one
11-24-2014, 02:10 AM
he was probably part of the LW12 beta team, i have no idea how large that was/is though...


Ahhh, that makes sense now. Thanks!

OnlineRender
11-24-2014, 03:26 AM
he was probably part of the LW12 beta team, i have no idea how large that was/is though...

pretty decent size actually ... however

https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xap1/v/t1.0-9/10390973_920480381309641_6253800548761988206_n.jpg ?oh=180f844b9465e8a0a41e1a704a7c39bb&oe=54E03885&__gda__=1423545433_52d0719186e3b35ce23b5bfa3a85ff1 b

2 years on...

erikals
11-24-2014, 03:47 AM
http://rlv.zcache.com/gold_egyptian_scarab_poster-r54406e076d604c7ebfc968d142d5a15e_wvk_8byvr_50.jpg

OnlineRender
11-24-2014, 04:08 AM
.https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/202534163/vba163f4125_400x400.jpg

gerry_g
11-24-2014, 07:29 AM
Picture of Golem obsessed with his precious, captures the zeitgeist of the forum perfectly

jeric_synergy
11-24-2014, 08:03 AM
That was Larry/Splinegod's avatar.

He was unique in the community. RIP.

gerry_g
11-24-2014, 08:54 AM
yes but that was his model of Gollum, duh

jboudreau
11-24-2014, 10:29 AM
yes, and could be many things...

LW going rental
LW joins X-company
Integration instead of Unification
LW price increase
NT / LWG split

etc etc...

LW joins x-company - I wonder if Lightwave joined Black Magic Design like Luxology (Modo) joined the foundry. This would be a way for Fusion to compete with NUKE etc.

Liberty3D news letter states A few months ago, Eyeon, the makers of Fusion among other neat VFX software were bought out by Black Magic Design

Jason

Oedo 808
11-24-2014, 10:51 AM
Picture of Golem obsessed with his precious, captures the zeitgeist of the forum perfectly

Indeed, struggling to hold within his grasp that which in the hands of others will enable a catastrophic change swept along by a horde of slavering, unthinking idiots pursuing their new promised land.

Matt
11-25-2014, 10:07 PM
QFA! This is getting ridiculous. Telling customers their bugs are "fixed in current build", KNOWING there will not be a release of such fixes to customers any time remotely soon, is just downright disrespectful. It's basically saying "nyah! nyah! We fixed your bug but you can't have it!" at that point.

LW3DG needs to either acknowledge the bugs are fixed and that a patch release for them is coming in some measurable period, or acknowledge that while the issue may be fixed internally it is unlikely customers will receive the fix any time soon -- esp. when they know the fix won't be released before the next paid upgrade.

If a user reports a bug, and it gets fixed, the bug reporting system lets the user know that it's been fixed. This is how it works in ALL software development. To make out like this is in someway disrespectful to user is misguided. Any fixes will be in the next patch, and we are actively working on one. Don't quite understand your position here. This is normal software development.

Megalodon2.0
11-25-2014, 10:21 PM
If a user reports a bug, and it gets fixed, the bug reporting system lets the user know that it's been fixed. This is how it works in ALL software development. To make out like this is in someway disrespectful to user is misguided. Any fixes will be in the next patch, and we are actively working on one. Don't quite understand your position here. This is normal software development.

I agree. But will these bug fixes be for LW11.x or will they be only in LW2015?

jboudreau
11-25-2014, 10:22 PM
If a user reports a bug, and it gets fixed, the bug reporting system lets the user know that it's been fixed. This is how it works in ALL software development. To make out like this is in someway disrespectful to user is misguided. Any fixes will be in the next patch, and we are actively working on one. Don't quite understand your position here. This is normal software development.

Hi Matt

I think what some are trying to say is the following:

During the 11.6.3 many users fog bugged bugs they found in the software only to have the Newtek development team send an e-mail saying that this has already been fixed in the internal build. Users were expecting all these bugs to be fixed before lightwave 2015 came out for free since they should of been working in that version that they paid for. Now users have to upgrade to get these bug fixes. Most people will upgrade because their is great benefit in doing so but some just wanted the fixes without the added features etc and I can understand where they are coming from regarding this because if the version they are using now works for them and they don't see any need to upgrade at this moment then they are left with all kinds of bugs that should of been fixed and was told were fixed. Basically they are being forced to upgrade to get the bugs fixed or they have to live with the bug until they upgrade. Unless a 11.6.3 bug path version is coming out which we are not sure of at the current moment.

Is their a plan to have a bug fixed version for the 11.6 users without any added features.

Thanks
Jason

spherical
11-25-2014, 10:55 PM
Exactly right. If a product is shipped that has flaws, they should be rectified. Period. THIS is normal Product Development. So, our advice to the team is to back-port the bug fixes and release 11.7. It's the Right Thing To Do.

Ztreem
11-25-2014, 11:47 PM
Exactly right. If a product is shipped that has flaws, they should be rectified. Period. THIS is normal Product Development. So, our advice to the team is to back-port the bug fixes and release 11.7. It's the Right Thing To Do.

So you're saying that all bugs should be fixed before they could release a new version? Because the product can't have any flaws? Then there will take a loooooong time before next release.

Megalodon2.0
11-25-2014, 11:50 PM
So you're saying that all bugs should be fixed before they could release a new version? Because the product can't have any flaws? Then there will take a loooooong time before next release.

Not necessarily, but the long-standing bugs that HAVE been fixed AND those that were reported as fixed should be made available to LW11.x users. If they have been fixed, why should LW3DG not provide the fix?

jboudreau
11-25-2014, 11:55 PM
So you're saying that all bugs should be fixed before they could release a new version? Because the product can't have any flaws? Then there will take a loooooong time before next release.

No not at all. But lets say for instance a tool gets broken in version 11.6.3 that's been working since version 10 or older do you think it's fair to have to pay for a new update just to get that tool fixed again?

Jason

jboudreau
11-25-2014, 11:58 PM
That's where the problem lies. It takes way too long for simple bugs that were working in previous versions that are now broken in newer releases to get fixed. I have fog bugs that are more than a year old and still not fixed. Some thing has got to be done to fix this problem.

Jason

erikals
11-26-2014, 01:07 AM
I have fog bugs that are more than a year old and still not fixed
i think this common in all 3D software

it's tricky to make a bug-free release

ncr100
11-26-2014, 01:29 AM
So you're saying that all bugs should be fixed before they could release a new version? Because the product can't have any flaws? Then there will take a loooooong time before next release.

+1

If you are one who wants old versions maintained, have you considered writing the executives at NewTek / LW3DG? The half dozen people on the forum who vocally share the "maintain the old versions" desire won't make a dent on the corporation by talking only into the forums. Likely it will neutralize those people's opinions since it's obvious now a consensus / upswell of support for that want is not impending. The only benefit of talking about it here I see is to gather and refine arguments and counter-arguments. Sound good?

spherical
11-26-2014, 03:44 AM
Geez... get a grip, guys. Stop putting words in people's mouths.

NO ONE is saying that all software should be bug-free.
NO ONE is saying that old versions should be forever maintained.

WHAT IS being said is that, if there are bugs that have been fixed far prior to the release of an Added Feature version, which of course will contain said bug fixes, that the bug fixes should be PORTED BACK (as I said above) to the version that spawned the FogBugs reports. Not everyone can afford to upgrade but they should be able to have at least the last set of bugs fixed.

Get it?

Note that this is an unbiased opinion, as I HAVE upgraded to v2015.

jboudreau
11-26-2014, 07:47 AM
Geez... get a grip, guys. Stop putting words in people's mouths.

NO ONE is saying that all software should be bug-free.
NO ONE is saying that old versions should be forever maintained.

WHAT IS being said is that, if there are bugs that have been fixed far prior to the release of an Added Feature version, which of course will contain said bug fixes, that the bug fixes should be PORTED BACK (as I said above) to the version that spawned the FogBugs reports. Not everyone can afford to upgrade but they should be able to have at least the last set of bugs fixed.

Get it?

Note that this is an unbiased opinion, as I HAVE upgraded to v2015.

+1 Agreed and I too will be upgrading just waiting in case they have an upgrade option bundled in with octane. I've got screwed on deals quite a few times upgrading too soon only to have a great bundle deal come out a few weeks later

Jason

erikals
11-26-2014, 08:28 AM
yes, but we all know when some bugs are fixed, other ones are created.

it might be more difficult to keep track of than it may seem.

anyway, agree, the major bugs should be fixed in a point release.

jboudreau
11-26-2014, 08:33 AM
yes, but we all know when some bugs are fixed, other ones are created.

it might be more difficult to keep track of than it may seem.

anyway, agree, the major bugs should be fixed in a point release.

oh yeah for sure. We aren't asking for new bugs that creep up from fixing old bugs to be fixed. Just like you said the major ones.

Jason

ncr100
11-26-2014, 12:37 PM
Geez... get a grip, guys. Stop putting words in people's mouths.

NO ONE is saying that all software should be bug-free.
NO ONE is saying that old versions should be forever maintained.

WHAT IS being said is that, if there are bugs that have been fixed far prior to the release of an Added Feature version, which of course will contain said bug fixes, that the bug fixes should be PORTED BACK (as I said above) to the version that spawned the FogBugs reports. Not everyone can afford to upgrade but they should be able to have at least the last set of bugs fixed.

Get it?

Note that this is an unbiased opinion, as I HAVE upgraded to v2015.

Mm thanks for the clarification, I get it: if a bug is found in LW11, fixed in 2015, then it should be back-ported to '11.

It would sure be nice. But I don't 100% agree. I prefer to back-port fixes, but I am often hindered because the release process itself has costs. Bug fixes can introduce new bugs, which makes everyone really unhappy - kind of defeated actually. In my experiences regressions occur like 10% of the time. This whole topic is a detailed issue however, tough to make the 'right' choice resource management-wise. Sometimes your development team is under-loaded and can afford to put out a new release for an old product. I assume the LW team is over-loaded. I would like to repeat, it would be nice, but I expect it's just impractical for the dev team.

Can certainly ask the project managers how much more $ they'd want from all of us to go through the action of back-porting...that would be fulfilling knowledge to have.

jboudreau
11-26-2014, 01:00 PM
Mm thanks for the clarification, I get it: if a bug is found in LW11, fixed in 2015, then it should be back-ported to '11.

It would sure be nice. But I don't 100% agree. I prefer to back-port fixes, but I am often hindered because the release process itself has costs. Bug fixes can introduce new bugs, which makes everyone really unhappy - kind of defeated actually. In my experiences regressions occur like 10% of the time. This whole topic is a detailed issue however, tough to make the 'right' choice resource management-wise. Sometimes your development team is under-loaded and can afford to put out a new release for an old product. I assume the LW team is over-loaded. I would like to repeat, it would be nice, but I expect it's just impractical for the dev team.

Can certainly ask the project managers how much more $ they'd want from all of us to go through the action of back-porting...that would be fulfilling knowledge to have.

Hi, This is just my opinion on the whole matter

I think they should of fixed all the outstanding major bugs, (the ones the support team said were fixed in the internal builds) They could of sent out an e-mail with the Lightwave 11.7 or 11.6.4 (what ever you want to call it) bug fix version with no new features added months ago and let the users know that anymore Major bugs found will be in the next paid upgrade release of Lightwave. (Lightwave 2015) Instead of doing this they basically are forcing their users to upgrade to get the bugs fixed or they have to live with the bug until they upgrade. How is it fair to have a feature you paid for in previous versions only to get broken on the next update and have to now pay for this fix, It doesn’t make sense to me. Doing it the way I suggest there would be no back porting necessary.

Lets say for instance their is a bug when you use VPR or F9 Render, and every time someone enables VPR or F9 Render the program crashes. If someone doesn't upgrade then they are now stuck with an unusable product for rendering because the fix is only in the updated version.

Jason

Surrealist.
11-26-2014, 01:39 PM
The only problem with this logic, and I am not a programer so slap me if I am wrong, but I am pretty sure once they start in on 2015 they have to drop all work on the earlier versions that do not include the current features. Otherwise they are just doing twice the work. Could be the bugs were reported and/or finally fixed, lets say after they already had a current build with Bullet constraints working -as an example. To get you the bug free version in your version means they'd have to go back and fix it as well in the 11 cycle build. Seems to me at some point they have to turn their back on 11 and move into the next cycle with all of the current features.

The way Autodesk handles this is if you are on subscription you get of course your service packs. But you also get a mid year update and a peek at features that have been added up to that point. So they are able to have a build with some of the new features of the next version and bug fixes together.

So I think also there is an immediate patch or two available. And then after that, it is on to the next cycle. Some people have complained for the same reason on the Maya forums. Finally a bug was addressed but it was a part of the next version.

Seems to me this is just the nature of the beast.

SBowie
11-26-2014, 01:49 PM
I can't speak for LW3DG, but I can comment on our usual practices in the Video Engineering side of the house. At times, a bug fix may occur naturally as a result of some major modifications involved in a new 'integer' release. Generally, after some iterations, it's reasonable to think of release versions as 'stable'. These may be patched when it's not too involved to do so, but most work is focused on the 'trunk' build, which moves on and eventually leaves its forebears far behind. In such cases, porting a fix backwards to a point build in the prior iteration may be all but impossible.

On the other hand, lesser fixes, or a 'bugfix' for an earlier version may become a matter of some urgency - such as when some unforeseen update to the OS breaks something vital, leaving loyal users at a great disadvantage. In such cases, we may well move to issue a patch for the earlier version - within reason (there are no guarantees, each matter being considered on a case by case basis).

spherical
11-26-2014, 04:04 PM
If all would recall, a bug fix back-port into 9.6 is what took place when v10 was releasing:

http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?112663-Open-Beta-Development-Update-for-23-September-2010

ncr100
11-26-2014, 04:11 PM
... If someone doesn't upgrade then they are now stuck with an unusable product ... Jason

Yeah that would weigh into my decisionmaking on whether I'd back-port. ;)

ncr100
11-26-2014, 04:16 PM
The only problem with this logic, and I am not a programer so slap me if I am wrong, but I am pretty sure once they start in on 2015 they have to drop all work on the earlier versions that do not include the current features. Otherwise they are just doing twice the work. Could be the bugs were reported and/or finally fixed, lets say after they already had a current build with Bullet constraints working -as an example. To get you the bug free version in your version means they'd have to go back and fix it as well in the 11 cycle build. ...

Yeah worst-case you have to re-do the work. But that is rare, unless you are forced to (or foolishly) make extensive base infrastructure changes for the new version onto which you created the fix in the first place. That's the re-do case. Normally however fixes are, to try using plumbing phrases, like adding a new pipe in a house, or tweaking a joint. Anything can happen after that though since the new "fixed" pressure might blow up some other pipe. :)

spherical
11-26-2014, 04:18 PM
If the back-port is Borked, then yes. If it's done right, no problem. :D Evidently, I have more faith in the dev's capabilities than others.