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lightscape
11-17-2014, 11:14 AM
He's had some good progress. Been following it and its definitely coming along in a short time. I hope he stays independent and not bought by the Carlyle group :D
https://www.facebook.com/david.ikeda

Further updates. Sculpting on 8 million poly with an old 8400gt
https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100004889147964


Its your move newtek, any news for lightwave updates?

tyrot
11-17-2014, 11:25 AM
https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=342326362606999&id=100004889147964

his mentality is pretty clear

lightscape
11-17-2014, 11:27 AM
https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=341467572692878&set=vb.100004889147964&type=2&theater

cpu is faster than gpu.

Surrealist.
11-17-2014, 11:37 AM
Wow. This is something I was completely unaware of.

Does NT have an allergy to innovative thinking? I have no idea where he will be able to take this, but it sounds a lot to me like history repeating itself. Just shooting from the hip it seems that way. Without more data.

50one
11-17-2014, 11:42 AM
I wish David well. He's a nice chap.

"Train employees well so they'll be able to leave, treat them well so they won't have to..."

lightscape
11-17-2014, 11:47 AM
Dont think he was treated bad. Just a difference of goal qnd direction.

tonyrizo2003
11-17-2014, 11:58 AM
Wow very cool thinking going on with those apps!! Way to go David, please keep us informed.

Surrealist.
11-17-2014, 12:43 PM
Dont think he was treated bad. Just a difference of goal qnd direction.

And so then one has to ask where is LightWave headed? I'll be honest. Chronosculpt was one of the things that had me thinking LightWave could rebound. Because I have always felt that LightWave needed the infusion of new technology to show it had something unique going. Even as a separate app, it did have a promise (from a now deleted thread) that that is something which could be fused into LightWave.

And this to me sheds an entirely new light on his departure. What? You alienate a guy like this from your team? He should be leading it.

Wow. Sorry. I don't like to come out too negatively towards LW3DG because I do think they are doing a good job. But what this guy is doing is exactly what LW has needed. And I am OK with it taking awhile. But axe this guy or even create an environment that he feels he needs to walk from?

To me as far as LW future goes, this does not seem good at all.

I wish David the best. I hope he is able to keep going and create an awesome app.

EDIT: Wow just read his entire post. This guy in my opinion nails it!

ernesttx
11-17-2014, 12:50 PM
Thanks for the link to David. I just finished watching the videos he posted on his page. His thinking is right in line with mine. This is the kind of tools that should be developed for individual artists. And, I, too, was brought into LW via seeing ChronoSculpt and thought finally someone was starting to see software the way I saw it. But, Chrono is now older than a year and not even a rotate tool. If David can get his software out, I'll be exiting LW. I'm not a studio and don't have a pipeline. It's just me and my computer.

erikals
11-17-2014, 12:52 PM
nice, hope to see some cool stuff, i wonder how this will differ from Blender in the end.

it's a huge task, but crossing fingers it develops nicely.

------

edit: dang, not bad, let's see where it leads http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/smile.gif

tyrot
11-17-2014, 01:24 PM
he and Victor should unite... asap:)

Amurrell
11-17-2014, 01:30 PM
Going to follow him from this point on and see where this leads. A lot of talent here.

Surrealist.
11-17-2014, 01:32 PM
nice, hope to see some cool stuff, i wonder how this will differ from Blender in the end.




Well yeah it will differ from Blender is a lot of ways. But where it will be the same as Blender is in this concept of having it all under one app and it really is a plus point.

The downside especially with a small dev team is being able to offer features that artists are looking for. I left Blender (as my #1 go to app) for this reason and wound up at Maya, which has had time to mature these various tools all under one app. Missng paint comp and sculpt of course. But another thing you have to consider is even under one app, artists still need tools that work for each task at a certain level. And if you stick only with Blender for example, you'll find yourself limited. This is why for me is winds up being Zbrush, Maya, MotionBuilder etc. Because even as an individual artist I still find I want the best of each part of the pipeline.

The argument in favor of something like Blender is I was able to set up a high res sculpt with the multirez modifier, have morph targets based on the underlying base mesh, paint on the high res sculpt - no UVs needed - rig the base mesh, set the viewport display to the base mesh and the render res to the high poly scupt, animate and then render in cyles and see it all right there. A very interesting and powerful workflow that elimiated all of the other headaches of going between other apps.

The downside of course is Blender's ability to deal with high res meshes.

You take a system like David is developing and you see the potential when the core of it is being able to wrangle high poly count.

By the way in my studio reel, it is the quick clip of the old lady who turns and smiles. It was just a proof of concept render.

JohnMarchant
11-17-2014, 01:51 PM
Been following David since he left NT/LWG3D and from what im seeing on his FB page it looks awesome and a nice man to boot.

Surrealist.
11-17-2014, 02:51 PM
Additionally, have a look at his interaction with the comments. This my friends is a lesson in how you can actually interact with a user base. You can communicate freely with people and field the various comments and clarify intentions. You are completely free to switch direction as needed because people are right there with you. By contrast around here, not only is there a code of silence, but they deleted a thread where David was interacting with the user base. For many that was a breath of fresh air and hope for LightWave - completely snuffed out.

hrgiger
11-17-2014, 03:20 PM
Additionally, have a look at his interaction with the comments. This my friends is a lesson in how you can actually interact with a user base. You can communicate freely with people and field the various comments and clarify intentions. You are completely free to switch direction as needed because people are right there with you. By contrast around here, not only is there a code of silence, but they deleted a thread where David was interacting with the user base. For many that was a breath of fresh air and hope for LightWave - completely snuffed out.

Yes, one developer and still has time to discuss, seemingly to no end the ins and outs of his software development and still get things done.

Nicolas Jordan
11-17-2014, 03:34 PM
The tech looks pretty good!

I think the peak of user feedback and involvement in the development of Lightwave was probably back in the 9.x cycle when there was a very active open beta forum. It was a time when there was a real sense of community because users were involved to some degree in giving user feedback well before a major release.

Surrealist.
11-17-2014, 03:50 PM
Yes, one developer and still has time to discuss, seemingly to no end the ins and outs of his software development and still get things done.

:agree:

Enough said. :hey:

Megalodon2.0
11-17-2014, 04:17 PM
Does NT have an allergy to innovative thinking? I have no idea where he will be able to take this, but it sounds a lot to me like history repeating itself. Just shooting from the hip it seems that way. Without more data.

IMO, I think that history is indeed repeating itself. Obviously it has nothing to do with the software developers themselves, but with NT/LW3DG management. Whether or not they are "bean counters" they seem to have that sort of mentality and are not very forward-thinking. Modo has apparently been increasing its userbase and I wonder what would have happened if they had been allowed to improve LW instead of being forced to move on. Maybe things would have gone the XSI route and LW would have lost significant market share. Then again, that's pretty much where LW is now.

I REALLY liked that David Ikeda LW thread where he was interacting with us - that one thread I recall saying (in that thread) that it gave me hope for LW - and then it was deleted. It seems that EVERY chance they get, the owners of LW shoot themselves in the foot. Well... I'm here for the time being, but David's new app is really looking up. I'm sure I and MANY here will be watching it closely. Quite honestly though I have no faith in LW management since they seem to think that near total silence is a viable method. As we've already discussed here many times, you don't have to reveal anything new - but interaction with the userbase ON THEIR OWN FORUMS is paramount. And not a little "tweet here and there."

tyrot
11-17-2014, 04:28 PM
mega you nailed it... but somebody must convince ikeda to create a facebook group where we can get in..

Surrealist.
11-17-2014, 04:33 PM
Yeah, and this is a guy I could get behind. I really will look forward to him eventually offering some kind of alpha or beta at some point. This should be interesting.

Megalodon2.0
11-17-2014, 04:41 PM
Yeah, and this is a guy I could get behind. I really will look forward to him eventually offering some kind of alpha or beta at some point. This should be interesting.

I agree. When I bought into CORE, it was during the recession and even though we didn't have enough cash to do it I went ahead and bought. Why? I supported Newtek AND believed in them. And since that time I've become very disillusioned. And they haven't given any real reason to change my mind. David Ikeda leaving was just another nail in the coffin. I hope they pull something out with LW12, but they seriously NEED to re-evaluate how they deal with their userbase - and this silence is NOT working at all. I know that there are some here who are all for it, but I sincerely doubt that most appreciate it. And as hr pointed out... one developer has time to engage the userbase consistently and LW3DG can't?

If David Ikeda ends up selling... I'll be in line buying. Innovative thinkers NEED support!

Surrealist.
11-17-2014, 05:03 PM
Yep.

Count me in as a guy who has been supporting LW3D Group decision to run silent and deep. Mainly, thinking, it works for them, fine, whatever. As long as LW12 is a hit, it is more or less water under the bridge.

Also my decision to support their move away from core - at least in method - was because I believe it is a long road and they'd eventually get there.

Then with David gone, it is an entirely new picture in light of what he alone was bringing to the table. To me this is a move away from what many bought into years ago and for what many have been hanging on for recently.

I kind of expected David to go find another job and we'd never hear from him again. But this is very interesting. And if this thread is allowed to stay open and does not get locked or deleted, it is bound to be a long one I imagine.

sukardi
11-17-2014, 05:26 PM
I hope David will develop a killer sculpting/whatever plugin that works seamlessly with Lightwave ...

hrgiger
11-17-2014, 06:32 PM
I think one of the things that David mentioned he was inspired by was apps like Mirai. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzWAYZ-VOU8

It will be interesting to see what David does with his software.

lightscape
11-17-2014, 08:59 PM
And so then one has to ask where is LightWave headed?
And this to me sheds an entirely new light on his departure. What? You alienate a guy like this from your team? He should be leading it.



Newtek is headed by old guys who are interested in making documentaries(which I have no interest in at all).
They should step down and let the younger generation take over the company who understand todays marketting and development.
If they would let developers talk I'm sure it wouldn't be this silent.
What, devs don't have a minute to take the time to post?? That's impossible. Its more like they are on a leash and can't talk about anything.
Its this old, antiquated way of doing things by old people.

spherical
11-17-2014, 09:29 PM
Hey, watch the "old" slurs, pal. I'd likely fit into your rude category and I don't agree with how LW3DG and/or management is doing things. A little respect for others around here would be appreciated.

lightscape
11-17-2014, 09:42 PM
Old is old. What other term should there be? Learn to have a thicker skin you're an artist don't be sensitive and make this a Flagrant 1.
Brad Peebler was young and understands marketting and development and look at Modo now. I don't think there was any bad treatment for these young guys that left Newtek. They just know that there's a different approach and different ways to go which when you're old you tend to be stubborn in your old ways and will not accept new things.
From reading David Ikeda's post he was pushing ideas around but was shot down. Now he's taken all that and created a fresh new application.

Megalodon2.0
11-17-2014, 09:49 PM
I don't think it has to do with "young or old," but the mentality within the company management. Let's face it - as I said - they keep managing to shoot themselves every single time. Not to mention LW losing market share year after year. There appears to be a mentality that new ways of thinking are not either tolerated or entertained.

I sincerely hope that LW12 isn't more flash and bang and nothing seriously done under the hood - as hr has pointed out many times in the past. Though there will always be a group here saying "wow" and "that's incredible" for things that other apps have had for years and again no serious work under the hood is shown. I am REALLY waiting anxiously to see what they deliver with LW12. Fortunately my expectations are quite low.

Surrealist.
11-17-2014, 10:47 PM
For some people it does come down to age. For some people, age is experience and an ever expanding point of view with more ideas to draw on with time. For others it is unwillingness to change.

In this case I think age has nothing to do with it. It is just what it is.

djwaterman
11-17-2014, 11:07 PM
What? What is this application? I'm not signed with Facebook so can't get in to see what you people are talking about, apart from some discussion of an inbuilt compositor which is not very interesting, so I assume it's a bigger deal than that. Can someone explain or point to some examples of this thing for us non FB people.

Surrealist.
11-17-2014, 11:32 PM
In short he is creating a new CC tool from the ground up:


Further on my goals, as said I really like the jack-of-all-trades, all-in-one software. To me it's one of the distinguishing aspects of a studio vs. independent mentality, and I have the independent artist mentality. I came to LW originally because of it, but in my opinion LW is growing more and more towards the big studio route.

So here's an example of a clash between studio vs. independent mentality. I'm very fond of the idea of integrated compositing in a 3D package, proposed things like this years ago before even Clarisse existed. And this is because I have a way of looking at software design which favors the independent artist. It's not a particularly original idea: anyone who has had dealt with the hassle of bouncing rendering output back and forth between AFX and a 3D software and realizing how many problems we can solve in 2D would most likely have thought the same thing at some point.

The counterargument to this proposal is something like this, "Why should we do compositing? There's Nuke, After Effects, SynthEyes for motion tracking, we can't compete with those." And that's a studio mentality as I'd call it.

The independent artist mentality which I have would say, "You don't need to compete with those. It is extremely, extremely valuable to be able to hit a button to render an image and have image compositing tools available at your fingertips immediately after: multiple layers, chroma keying, image/video filters, etc. It doesn't even need to be as good as Nuke or AFX, it could even be 'watered down' if we want to cast it in such a negative light: it only needs to be right there and immediately available."

And this highlights the clash between "studio" and "independent" schools of thought. Studios can afford to own ten different products and assign enough artists to be using them daily. They can afford to build pipelines that treat a production like an assembly line from modeling to rigging to lighting, particles, dynamics, hair and fur, rendering, tracking, compositing. Now small studios can be a bit of an exception, since they can exhibit "independent artist"-type thinking since as their team gets smaller and smaller, they start to encounter the same problems that an individual artist would encounter.

An independent artist can't build pipelines like this. He's doing all this himself. He's going to be constantly bouncing around between all these disparate areas of work, modeling a bit here, lighting a bit there, animating a bit there, motion tracking things here and camera matching, mapping UVs, opening up an image editor and painting over it, coming back to the model, rendering some more, etc. If we try doing that a lot personally, we find that we quickly get overwhelmed if we have to use 10 different products to do this in. So to an independent artist type of person, being able to immediately use compositing tools after rendering, being able to immediately paint a texture even on a half-formed model and test bone deformations, etc. -- these kinds of things become incredibly valuable. It no longer becomes about what's best at everything, since we can't afford to use a completely separate, very best thing for everything. We kind of need to deal with as few things as possible, the most seamless and immediate workflows possible, since otherwise we'll get overwhelmed.

So as another example of the independent artist kind of school of thought I have, I personally feel like a renderer doubles in value when it has a native home. In other words, a renderer that is natively and seamlessly integrated in a product doubles in value over one that is a floating plugin. To studios this might not matter, they can license RenderMan or V-Ray or Arnold and tailor their whole pipeline around it. To the independent artist, just having something where the native material library and renderer is all seamless and immediate makes the native renderer go way up in value. So it's for the same reason that I'm tackling a renderer of my own, in spite of being in the age of V-Rays and Arnolds and Octanes, Marmosets, and Bridages. I don't even have the slightest inkling of being able to compete with those except that my renderer will have a native home which doubles its value according to this kind of independent artist line of thought.

At least I think so, I might be going on a stretch by contrasting these schools of thought and trying to label them as "studio" vs. "independent artist", and very small studios can be weighted more towards the "independent artist" line of thought than the Pixars and ILMs, but my software is naturally catered to those who think like me. And this is why I'm hitting some of the foundations for things like compositing early on, even though I probably won't get to it until a future version. My ultimate aim is for the all-in-one, jack of all trades kind of software that keeps things simple and seamless for the people who use it.

Megalodon2.0
11-17-2014, 11:34 PM
For some people it does come down to age. For some people, age is experience and an ever expanding point of view with more ideas to draw on with time. For others it is unwillingness to change.

In this case I think age has nothing to do with it. It is just what it is.

:agree: I would be that you are most likely correct.

Surrealist.
11-18-2014, 12:02 AM
Could be :)

@dj:

Watching and listening some of the videos. He is at the very beginning stages. But what he is doing now is optimizing the efficiency of the underlying code. For example making sure that you can handle millions of polygons with very efficient memory use and veiwport speed. Interaction is key.

He demonstrates the need to have an efficient scene graph with 10,000 bones in an IK chain. He is pulling it around in real time like a string. "most systems would crawl to thier knees" according to him with only a few hundred. He wants the fasts application on the market bar none. And his logic is to get this efficiency done now. For example with the scene graph. With that out of the way he can now work on constraints and so on. He basically said, if he does not handle this now, he'll be stuck with it for years to come as he will not be able to come back and change it.

an interesting mention " efficiency has always been something at least in my former team was not considered something that was very important. I think it is something very important..." And he goes on to say when you make software efficient the quality of art goes up. Citing Zbrush for example. When that hit the scene people where turning out much higher quality work.

I really like this guy's way of thinking.

Megalodon2.0
11-18-2014, 12:05 AM
an interesting mention " efficiency has always been something at least in my former team was not considered something that was very important. I think it is something very important..." And he goes on to say when you make software efficient the quality of art goes up. Citing Zbrush for example. When that hit the scene people where turning out much higher quality work.

I really like this guy's way of thinking.

But it also tells us quite a bit...

Surrealist.
11-18-2014, 12:13 AM
Yes... I am afraid to admit. It does.

hrgiger
11-18-2014, 04:04 AM
Well David left Newtek earlier this year and already has something that looks as usable, if not more, then CORE did after 4 years of development.

50one
11-18-2014, 04:26 AM
Once he'll start selling something I think I'll have no problem in supporting his effort financially.

Other than that, I'm not surprised at all it takes half a brain of an average Joe Shmoe to see some things...

Oedo 808
11-18-2014, 04:42 AM
Well David left Newtek earlier this year and already has something that looks as usable, if not more, then CORE did after 4 years of development.

Any idea how long he had been with NT/The LWG?

Hail
11-18-2014, 04:56 AM
That looks like another M*d* in the making.. way to go, LW3DG!
Keep kicking out all the innovative and skillful brains and soon we will all be camping elsewhere.
BTW. I've already started pitching my tent in the C4D camp and I wonder how many more are doing the same. :P

lino.grandi
11-18-2014, 05:08 AM
That went too far already.