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lightscape
10-15-2014, 09:47 AM
3dcoat seems to be having some serious development
Would love to have pbr viewport in layout or modeller.
http://forums.newtek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=125004&d=1413387913

tonyrizo2003
10-15-2014, 09:49 AM
wow, that looks great, I really need to get my head wrapped around 3d coat!!

jeric_synergy
10-15-2014, 10:14 AM
"PBR"? Pabst Blue Ribbon? That stuff is terrible.

Sensei
10-15-2014, 10:58 AM
Would love to have pbr viewport in layout or modeller.


We have VPR..

lightscape
10-15-2014, 11:18 AM
We have VPR..

Yep. But we don't have pbr..

Sensei
10-15-2014, 12:22 PM
PBR = Physically-Based Renderer?
PBRTK = Physically-Based Viewport Shader?

We have VPR to preview rendering.
And we have nodes, which are modern version of layering systems present in the past...

Does Houdini users ask for introducing to them old layering system shaders, when they have access to much more powerful nodes, that are not linear, and can be plugged by way they want, not just linear?

OnlineRender
10-15-2014, 01:11 PM
PBR = Physically-Based Renderer?
PBRTK = Physically-Based Viewport Shader?

We have VPR to preview rendering.


yeah but you are missing the point , you can't model in Layout ;)

Oedo 808
10-15-2014, 02:06 PM
yeah but you are missing the point , you can't model in Layout ;)

Perhaps he would be referring to the layout suggestion:


Would love to have pbr viewport in layout or modeller.

Sensei
10-15-2014, 02:31 PM
yeah but you are missing the point , you can't model in Layout ;)

True shaders can't work in Modeler, either. As they heavily really on ray-tracing.. To cast a ray there is needed renderer, that creates ray-tracing optimization trees from all meshes, like octree, kd-tree, at the beginning of rendering. You can't model while at the same time there is going on ray-tracing. When you model, optimizations trees will be disvalidated.. No longer contain correct data.. Rebuilding octree/kd-tree is time expensive task.

I see no modeling in all this PBR tool.

lightscape
10-15-2014, 10:05 PM
Good documentation of pbr
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Fb9_KgCo0noxROKN4iT8ntTbx913e-t4Wc2nMRWPzNk/edit?pli=1

Sensei
10-15-2014, 10:43 PM
Following PBR is job of artist, not application. Application can allow non-PBR settings to have non-PBR effects like f.e. cartoon animation. Application doesn't know what user wants from it.

I want be able to plug any values to any channels without application interfering in this process.

See other thread- people want to use ridiculous negative value for illumination (dark light/negative light) - that's their choice. PBR would never allow that.

bazsa73
10-16-2014, 03:51 AM
Let's be envious of other softwares because they are better and lightwave is not good.

lightscape
10-16-2014, 11:48 AM
Let's be envious of other softwares because they are better and lightwave is not good.

Don't be dense. Its not envy and not putting down lightwave and far from doom and gloom threads.

Its a feature that is useful that lightwave could use to play well with others especially the big gaming market.

lightscape
10-16-2014, 11:51 AM
Following PBR is job of artist, not application.

Tell that to the talented devs and artists working on other software,not just 3dcoat, that are trying to support it.
Maybe Andrew is not a genius afterall for trying to implement this for 3dcoat.

MSherak
10-16-2014, 11:52 AM
Yep. But we don't have pbr..

HAHAHA viewport or image??? I think you are confussed what it is. PBR is nothing new. LW has had this since the first version with GI. But it's new to the GPU shader world since graphics cards are now capable of rendering really fast. Can they do everything? No. There are a lot of things that the GPU can't do. You have PBR. Hit the render button or turn on VPR. Do you have a GPU Shader capable of PBR? No. Cause LW is more than just a display application.


True shaders can't work in Modeler, either. As they heavily really on ray-tracing.. To cast a ray there is needed renderer, that creates ray-tracing optimization trees from all meshes, like octree, kd-tree, at the beginning of rendering. You can't model while at the same time there is going on ray-tracing. When you model, optimizations trees will be disvalidated.. No longer contain correct data.. Rebuilding octree/kd-tree is time expensive task.

I see no modeling in all this PBR tool.

Yup and that is why when you see GPU PBR shaders working in an application it is only for display and not editing.



Following PBR is job of artist, not application. Application can allow non-PBR settings to have non-PBR effects like f.e. cartoon animation. Application doesn't know what user wants from it.

I want be able to plug any values to any channels without application interfering in this process.

See other thread- people want to use ridiculous negative value for illumination (dark light/negative light) - that's their choice. PBR would never allow that.

True and most artists have no clue or don't care to understand the software they are using. "it looks pretty and should be in _( pick application )_" or " _____ sucks cause it does not have _____ like _______ ". Which is sad. Advice for the artist learning 3D software. Learn how a computer works internally, for without the computer you have no tools. Read why the math does what it does under the hood. Understand that the vertex is the most powerful thing in 3D. For without it you are building nothing. Buy a camera and learn photography. No better canvas to learn from than the earth itself. Funny, I never hear a traditional artist complaining about this pencil sucks cause it has to much wood covering it. An artist learns to use his/her tools to their advantage no matter what it is. If you are taking offense to these statements sit back a second and think why.


Let's be envious of other softwares because they are better and lightwave is not good.

Hope this a joke. Other software is not better because they have a GPU shader that raytraces. Put it this way, Maya's 2.0 shader is very nice. Though it does not have access to raytracing since you can edit things in the package. This is why artists take their models to Marmoset. It's a PBR display package. And if you don't have the maps setup right you are in for a big disappointment on the look.


There is no easy button!
-M

lightscape
10-16-2014, 08:20 PM
i think you're confused what pbr's aim is. Its to establish consistency between different appz display.
Take one asset and make it look consistent from x to z app. So now tell me if lightwave has the same consistent viewport mode as marmoset, ddo, substance, etc. 3dcoat developer atleast knows his app would benefit from having this display mode.



Atleast they developed the viewport 2.0 shader. Now you would tell people that want viewport 2.0 that we don't need this new tech in lightwave, too.
Sour grapes....

erikals
10-16-2014, 08:57 PM
i welcome PBR in 3DCoat, was actually about to feature request similar...

lightscape
10-16-2014, 10:48 PM
i welcome PBR in 3DCoat, was actually about to feature request similar...

We would need some new shader support in lightwave to make use of either metalness or reflectance.

Sensei
10-16-2014, 10:58 PM
Why on Earth somebody bothers with OpenGL shaders to have nice display in viewport that nobody will ever see, when everything what only matters is rendered output, that's what client pays for...
OpenGL shaders won't make your renders more prettier.

Red_Oddity
10-17-2014, 03:41 AM
Why on Earth somebody bothers with OpenGL shaders to have nice display in viewport that nobody will ever see, when everything what only matters is rendered output, that's what client pays for...
OpenGL shaders won't make your renders more prettier.

I think you're missing the point of the usage of these kind of PBR viewports.
They are not for rendering, they are mostly aimed at game development.

Also, workflows differ from person to person and studio to studio, just claiming a feature is stupid/useless because you don't see the use for it or falls outside the scope of your own work is kinda pointless to these technology conversations and often derails the discussion at hand.

lightscape
10-17-2014, 05:39 AM
exactomondo.

lightscape
10-18-2014, 09:09 PM
Example of new-gen materials in 3d-coat (painted in couple of clicks with fill)
http://pilgway.com/files/IMG_18102014_121315.png

Its looking real good.
http://3d-coat.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=4372&page=31

erikals
10-18-2014, 11:20 PM
looks great http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/smile.gif

btw, i haven't been able to use 3DCoat much yet, but wonder, in this example, how would you go about the texturing ?

is there any way to select specific polygons in 3DCoat for then to texture them, like a mask sort of, is that what you did here ?

lightscape
10-19-2014, 12:02 AM
looks great http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/smile.gif

btw, i haven't been able to use 3DCoat much yet, but wonder, in this example, how would you go about the texturing ?

is there any way to select specific polygons in 3DCoat for then to texture them, like a mask sort of, is that what you did here ?

Since 3dcoat reads lwo files directly, it can use lw surfaces and modeller layers as its own layers/masks.
So within 3dc if you check the materials and object layers they reflect what you have in lightwave. If you have a car door layer in modeller, it will show up in 3dcoat object layer as car door. If you further have unique lw surfaces for the car door named car door knob, car door trim, etc it will show up in 3dcoat in the material layers column, too. You can solo the 3dc layer by pressing Alt+lmb on the eye icon.
The third option is like the magic wand in ps. Freeze or hide function.

erikals
10-19-2014, 01:35 AM
Splendid..! http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/king.gif

thank you so much for sharing this info, it helped me a lot already... http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/smile.gif Beautiful..!

MSherak
10-20-2014, 12:30 PM
i think you're confused what pbr's aim is. Its to establish consistency between different appz display.
Take one asset and make it look consistent from x to z app. So now tell me if lightwave has the same consistent viewport mode as marmoset, ddo, substance, etc. 3dcoat developer atleast knows his app would benefit from having this display mode.

Atleast they developed the viewport 2.0 shader. Now you would tell people that want viewport 2.0 that we don't need this new tech in lightwave, too.
Sour grapes....

HAHAHA now that is funny. PBR is not the same between applications. Each company writes their own OpenGL PBR shader. The basics of PBR mapping is the same and even at that companies do variations. Lightwave does not need PBR OpenGL shaders. Remember these do not work unless in a GPU RENDERING ENGINE period. Which in layman's terms means that LW would have to have a GPU rendering engine and shaders for these to display. Now instead since Lightwave has VPR one could easily make a Nodal surface that reads these textures and works exactly they way they look in these engines and use it for rendering. Which is what Lightwave is good at. And as far as Viewport 2.0 in Maya, it's still a half assed implementation of CGFX. Guess that is why they purchase ShaderFX a couple of years ago and just got it in. Half the stuff does not work right and it was placed in there so they could make a RT version of Maya that they could sell to game enthusiasts. Nothing more. There is no benefit to 2.0 unless one writes their own shader. WHICH in the exact same thing as a CGFX shader that have been out for many years. Oh and PBR does not work in 2.0 since they don't have a GPU renderer either. I should know I use Maya and Lightwave everyday.

Marmoset - GAME ENGINE turned display tool.
DDO - Uses Marmoset game engine. Which is really the 3DO part of the package.
Substance - For creating scalable textures for game engine shaders. Format is available to decompress for 3D rendering also.
3DCoat - a 3D sculpt and paint package. Which now has a GPU Render which means bye bye Marmoset in the pipeline.

I'm not confused. I work in the game industry and I don't even care about these. Most of the time the game engines that are used for AAA titles do not use any of the consumer market game engines. (Unity, UDK, Crytek, etc) You want things to go fast you make your own proprietary game engine and with that no PBR shader is going to help me in a paint package let alone my 3D package. Oh and show me a game engine that is 100% PBR. There are none since the raytracing costs to much when you place a game under it. This is why you have PBR display tools. It's a buzz in the industry and in reality takes away tons of control from the artist. For creating pictures I'll take rendering in the viewport over OpenGL shaders anyday.


We would need some new shader support in lightwave to make use of either metalness or reflectance.

Then write one. CGFX is at your finger tips to display them, even in Lightwave. Only thing one will not get is the environment interacting since CGFX is not a GPU renderer. OR use VPR and create a NODAL that does this and one can have that and 100x more abilities. Comments like, we need, are from people not understanding what they are looking at but wanting a button for it cause it looks cool in something else.


Why on Earth somebody bothers with OpenGL shaders to have nice display in viewport that nobody will ever see, when everything what only matters is rendered output, that's what client pays for...
OpenGL shaders won't make your renders more prettier.

Exactly!!!!


Example of new-gen materials in 3d-coat (painted in couple of clicks with fill)
http://pilgway.com/files/IMG_18102014_121315.png

Its looking real good.
http://3d-coat.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=4372&page=31

Yes if your engine supports these type of shaders. Give me a break. Anyone has been able to paint textures this way for decades. You could have painted textures in 3D coat this way for years, or photoshop, or whatever digital paint package out there. What was not in place was the GPU PBR rendering engines to display textures in this format.



No 3D package needs these shaders. Keep them where they are in the DISPLAY TOOL software. Again the only place these textures are used in this format is a GAME ENGINE. Look into it more than just a pretty looking viewport picture. Paint one first so you understand the pain in the *** it is. Data is data and there really is no need to paint this way for a shader to display in a tool. It's silly and limiting. VPR is 100x better since you are not limited on how to do something.

-M

erikals
10-20-2014, 02:07 PM
VPR and PBR are two completely different things, both good for their use,

read more >

http://3d-coat.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=16362&hl=

http://community.thefoundry.co.uk/discussion/topic.aspx?f=4&t=92645

MSherak
10-20-2014, 07:34 PM
VPR and PBR are two completely different things, both good for their use,

read more >

http://3d-coat.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=16362&hl=

http://community.thefoundry.co.uk/discussion/topic.aspx?f=4&t=92645

(sigh) By definement:

PBR.. Physical Based Rendering - Which we have in Lightwave and it can render in a viewport. Oh and most other rendering software on the planet has it in some form.

PBRR.. Physical Based Real-Time Rendering - Which we don't have or need, But now is the confusing acronym since they cut off a R. and is the latest BUZZ word in the 3D world which in reality is only good use is in GAME ENGINES.

There is no good use in a 3D package for a PBRR when you can already render in a viewport and do 100x more with it. Understand a PBRR is FIXED.. There are no extra functions. Thats all. Just a pretty viewport IF you did the textures right for the shader. Again they are smoke and mirroring people with this stuff. You know how to achieve Physical Based look in all rendering? Fresnel in a raytracer, pure and simple. BTDF, BDSF, BSSRDF, BRDF. Artists have been using it for years. When they say NEX-GEN texturing they are talking about games and real-time applications. Fixed solutions. Do you want Lightwave's viewport just a pretty display?? Game engines are getting faster but still can't render what your 3D package can do.

Watch and read, it's nothing new: http://artisaverb.info/PBR.html

Here is a CGFX lighting PB shader which can be used with package that supports CGFX. http://www.kostas.se/tga-physically-based-shader/

Great reading to understand PBRR : http://seblagarde.wordpress.com/tag/physically-based-rendering/





Question: How many times have you used CGFX in Lightwave to just display something??





Cause that's basically what PBRR is. Just prettier.

erikals
10-20-2014, 08:01 PM
well, it might be too time consuming to include, so i agree it might not be worth it for M/L

nice technology non the less...

lightscape
02-25-2015, 05:09 PM
Modo and Mari seems to be getting serious with game development. No pbr and substance support for Lightwave 2015...:thumbsup:


Join us for a confidential workflow presentation of the latest developments MODO and MARI at GDC 2015!
Private demos will take place at the Metropolitan Suite at the St Regis Hotel 4th - 6th March (just opposite the Convention Centre) and would love to see you there.
The Foundry's creative specialists will be on hand, as well as Jack Greasley, Head of New Technologies & MARI Product Manager & Gregory Duquesne, MODO Product Manager to show the products in action and answer any questions you may have.
We will be prepared to show proposed features such as:
GLSL shaders w/ Physically Based Rendering support
Layered GLSL shaders and texture painting workflows
New optimized layouts for texture baking processes and batch automation
Interactive normal map generation and texture baking
Significant enhancements and innovation to our powerful modeling and UV tools
SubD Booleans that simply work
OpenSubD support
New developer tools and APIs (PySide, PyQt, TD SDK, Geometry/Texture/Node graph APIs)

lightscape
02-25-2015, 07:08 PM
http://steamcommunity.com/app/238710/discussions/0/618453594745322415/

Another big news: The revenue limit for the Indie version of Substance Designer and Substance Painter is now $100 000/year!

https://www.allegorithmic.com/products/substance-designer

So when will lightwave support pbr and substances?

eon5
02-26-2015, 04:28 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fb5tHXpCPs

lightscape
02-26-2015, 07:34 PM
Yep 3dcoat pbr is awesome to work with.

And now its modo and mari's turn. Lightwave when?


Modo and Mari seems to be getting serious with game development. No pbr and substance support for Lightwave 2015...:thumbsup:


Join us for a confidential workflow presentation of the latest developments MODO and MARI at GDC 2015!
Private demos will take place at the Metropolitan Suite at the St Regis Hotel 4th - 6th March (just opposite the Convention Centre) and would love to see you there.
The Foundry's creative specialists will be on hand, as well as Jack Greasley, Head of New Technologies & MARI Product Manager & Gregory Duquesne, MODO Product Manager to show the products in action and answer any questions you may have.
We will be prepared to show proposed features such as:
GLSL shaders w/ Physically Based Rendering support
Layered GLSL shaders and texture painting workflows
New optimized layouts for texture baking processes and batch automation
Interactive normal map generation and texture baking
Significant enhancements and innovation to our powerful modeling and UV tools
SubD Booleans that simply work
OpenSubD support
New developer tools and APIs (PySide, PyQt, TD SDK, Geometry/Texture/Node graph APIs)

lightscape
05-22-2015, 01:26 AM
https://vimeo.com/128241320

I think this Advance viewport looks sexy and very close to 3dcoat/Substance/game engine's pbr implementation.
I wish modeller had something like this.
This, meshfusion and the sculpting layers are for me the big features for Modo 901. I'm tempted. :D

jwiede
05-22-2015, 02:25 AM
I think this Advance viewport looks sexy and very close to 3dcoat/Substance/game engine's pbr implementation.

They also demonstrated actively modifying geometry with the advanced viewport running, and the performance shown was very impressive. They were working with decent (but not ridiculous/unobtainable, many here have similar) hardware, but still, that they were performantly editing geometry live (including tricky contours) with real-time AO, etc. active as smoothly as they did nicely disproves much of the nay-saying earlier in the thread about such things. Watch the "Quad Fill" and "Radial Align" demos on the MB SEL model, they demonstrate those tools working with advanced viewport active, and visual elements like AO and shadowing adapt in real-time to the modified geometry.

lightscape
05-22-2015, 02:55 AM
I hope it works as well as it looked in the presentation.

With 801 the viewport was "improved" but generally it was still slow. Modo has the slowest viewport for animation and deformation. Forget multiple characters on screen you'll get maybe 2fps.

901 says x2.5 increase but that's still very slow when maya is atleast 30 times faster :D
So we can expect 901 to be 15 times slower than maya.
Layout performs pretty good with timeline scrubbing considering how old it is. Lw 2015 actually improved viewport speed a bit more I'm getting 10-15fps.

seghier
05-22-2015, 04:25 AM
remind me a real-time viewport raytracing for rhino : neon
it's good for render previews

Stardust
06-22-2017, 02:44 PM
From some of the stuff i'm reading in the forums.... Looks like I missed out on all of the fun...

hrgiger
06-23-2017, 10:20 AM
I see no modeling in all this PBR tool.

Works fine in Modo.

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