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View Full Version : LightWave Now Bumped Farther Down In The Pecking Order...



spherical
09-24-2014, 02:22 AM
REALLY not sure how I'm feeling about this but, at this point, not loved... given the recent trend of hierarchy, visibility and, hence, evident relative importance in the product lineup. Actions speak louder than words.

pinkmouse
09-24-2014, 02:33 AM
That's just an organisational thing, and whilst annoying at first, I can probably live with it.

What's much more worrying is over the 18 months I've been here, the slow decline of actual posts by LW users. When I first subscribed, I'd click on "New Posts" of a morning and the results would usually go over the page. Now, they only fill about a third of the first page, and half those are Newtek related rather than LW.

bobakabob
09-24-2014, 02:55 AM
Yes the LW forums need a vibrant distinct identity - they are too many clicks and layers away for many new users to find.
It's hard to understand why something as basic as thumbnails aren't visible in the gallery threads. It would stimulate far more sharing of work. Maybe Facebook is where many users go - does CGtalk also seem much quieter these days?

hrgiger
09-24-2014, 02:56 AM
Have to agree with Spherical here. Looks like LW is becoming less a priority to Newtek.

prometheus
09-24-2014, 07:05 AM
That's just an organisational thing, and whilst annoying at first, I can probably live with it.

What's much more worrying is over the 18 months I've been here, the slow decline of actual posts by LW users. When I first subscribed, I'd click on "New Posts" of a morning and the results would usually go over the page. Now, they only fill about a third of the first page, and half those are Newtek related rather than LW.

Thereīs also been an bulletin forum issue that stopped people from getting mail notifications from the threads, and in my case I simply stopped being that active on the forums, wouldnīt be surprised if more people around here did the same.
other than that, itīs probably due to the await of the new lw version, and people might spend time better doing work than posting in the forums...and perhaps it works well enough so they donīt need ask to many questions either.

prometheus
09-24-2014, 07:14 AM
I agree that the bulletin forum experience seems to get worse over time, apart from the notification issues that been popping up this year, the loss of thumbnails some years ago.
I donīt get why 3play and talk show is above the other sections, and I donīt understand why NewTek LightWave 3D Group Announcements is in the head section instead of actually belonging to the lightwave community section.

They need to organize stuff better and remove some of it to make it cleaner too, to much old stuff with barely any posts that are remains from core subscription etc..it seems.

It would be awesome if a forum could be made, were we simply can design which sections we want to be seen... or drag selected section in the picking order we want.

Consumer573
09-24-2014, 10:42 AM
I am looking to buy LW on the Crossgrade. I hope it is not a dying suite of software. It used to have a reptuation like the name Sterling on Silver to me. This thread is a bit troubling, butif accurate perhaps a wake-up call to Newtek. I also went to a bookstore some 30 miles away that carries 3D magazines. I noticed that even the ones that say Lightwave on it don't have anything interesting or substantial in the latest issues, except something called vox which I'm not up to understanding or using yet. Modo was suggested as one alternative in the daz thread I started.

Here were some of my questions in a forum at Daz:

http://www.daz3d.com/forums/viewthread/46602/

I also asked a question here about whether it can do model airplanes. The posting is awaiting moderator approval.

Snosrap
09-24-2014, 11:24 AM
What's much more worrying is over the 18 months I've been here, the slow decline of actual posts by LW users. Most likely just due to no news from Newtek about anything LW related. Mums the word with them.

prometheus
09-24-2014, 11:54 AM
I donīt think the amount of post from users is worrying, though it just raises thoughts on whatīs going on with folks nowadays?
Im pretty sure this forum will start itīs increasement with much much more posts when lw 11.7 shows up..or if they skip that and go for
lw 2015.........uh, sorry..I ment Lw 12 ??

What is troublesome ..that is the issue of subscriptions not working properly with the mail system..I hope they can avoid that in the future somehow.
And furthermore ..annoyance, the lack of update to the forum gallery section, and I am not talking about users not posting artwork, I am talking about the poor design of the gallery section with
the lack of proper thumbs or an overview page...the lux gallery is so much nicer to get to the direct overview on what is posted and following the artwork posted.

me and others have mentioned that a lot ..they need to do something about it, but so far nada, and it just feels a little sloppy of those responsible not doing anything about it after so long time, they
could at least jump in and say...yes we are working on it..but it wonīt show up until the next lw release around the first quarter of that year etc, it will help us impatience guys endure the time travel up till that point.

Michael

Dexter2999
09-24-2014, 12:51 PM
They need to move the LW threads over to Lightwave3d.com and get it off the Newtek site.

It made sense to keep it here when the Video Toaster came with Lightwave packaged, as Toaster users would want input on how to create their own 3d. But now, I don't know. Lightwave doens't come with the TriCaster as far as I know. So, there isn't a compelling reason to keep the forums tethered to this site.

Migrate them over already.

prometheus
09-24-2014, 12:56 PM
They need to move the LW threads over to Lightwave3d.com and get it off the Newtek site.

It made sense to keep it here when the Video Toaster came with Lightwave packaged, as Toaster users would want input on how to create their own 3d. But now, I don't know. Lightwave doens't come with the TriCaster as far as I know. So, there isn't a compelling reason to keep the forums tethered to this site.

Migrate them over already.

Yes, I wonder if that isnīt the best really.
a little to think of about which other sections you would want acess to, like general discussion for instance, and perhaps third party stuff.

Megalodon2.0
09-24-2014, 01:02 PM
When the LW forums get below SpeedEdit and Rendition for Photoshop... then the REAL worry will begin. ;)


They need to move the LW threads over to Lightwave3d.com and get it off the Newtek site.

It made sense to keep it here when the Video Toaster came with Lightwave packaged, as Toaster users would want input on how to create their own 3d. But now, I don't know. Lightwave doens't come with the TriCaster as far as I know. So, there isn't a compelling reason to keep the forums tethered to this site.

Migrate them over already.

Agreed.

ernpchan
09-24-2014, 01:04 PM
I collapse the sections I don't read so visually it wasn't that much of a change. But I guess if you don't or are a new user I could see how it would give the impression of a hierarchy of importance.

spherical
09-24-2014, 06:34 PM
They need to move the LW threads over to Lightwave3d.com and get it off the Newtek site.

The two sections already have different admins.

BigHache
09-24-2014, 10:02 PM
REALLY not sure how I'm feeling about this but, at this point, not loved... given the recent trend of hierarchy, visibility and, hence, evident relative importance in the product lineup. Actions speak louder than words.

Well this, and I've recently been told at work that after bringing LightWave in to the studio and using it in production for over a year, they're now thinking about changing over to Maya or some other platform because they can't find any 3D artists in my area that know LightWave. *sigh*

ernpchan
09-24-2014, 10:14 PM
That's no fun. The learning curve for LW isn't that steep so maybe you could bring someone in who wants to learn.

Or find someone who wants to move. I reached out to the DAVE school and they pointed me to someone who was moving. Granted it was Los Angeles and most people wanna move there anyway.

jeric_synergy
09-25-2014, 01:31 AM
..... they can't find any 3D artists in my area that know LightWave. *sigh*
Where is that?

shrox
09-25-2014, 02:25 AM
Well this, and I've recently been told at work that after bringing LightWave in to the studio and using it in production for over a year, they're now thinking about changing over to Maya or some other platform because they can't find any 3D artists in my area that know LightWave. *sigh*

Yes, where?

BigHache
09-25-2014, 05:55 AM
North Florida. The bigger issue is we need people on site.

We have another artist who does know Maya that I've been bringing up to speed on LW so it's not the end of the world.

WilliamVaughan
09-25-2014, 06:14 AM
North Florida. The bigger issue is we need people on site.

We have another artist who does know Maya that I've been bringing up to speed on LW so it's not the end of the world.

Email me what your looking for and I'd love to connect you with some of the grads.

lardbros
09-25-2014, 06:16 AM
Thereīs also been an bulletin forum issue that stopped people from getting mail notifications from the threads, and in my case I simply stopped being that active on the forums, wouldnīt be surprised if more people around here did the same.
other than that, itīs probably due to the await of the new lw version, and people might spend time better doing work than posting in the forums...and perhaps it works well enough so they donīt need ask to many questions either.

In my case too, just stopped coming back so often as I wasn't getting notified.

If it continued for a few months, like last time, it would be damaging... I pretty much gave up on this place when it happened.

prometheus
09-25-2014, 06:20 AM
In my case too, just stopped coming back so often as I wasn't getting notified.

If it continued for a few months, like last time, it would be damaging... I pretty much gave up on this place when it happened.

Thatīs what I suspected ..and you and I are not the only ones, good thing is that it was sorted out a few days ago for me anyway and a couple of others,that means I will be more eager to plageu the forums with all kinds of stuff, donīt know if that is a good or bad thing though..depends on the content:D

jwiede
09-25-2014, 07:48 AM
I suspect the ongoing slow decline in LW posting volume has more to do with lack of "official communication" long-term, than the very-short-lived problem with thread notification.

GandB
09-25-2014, 07:56 AM
I suspect the ongoing slow decline in LW posting volume has more to do with lack of "official communication" long-term, than the very-short-lived problem with thread notification.

That's about it, along with declining user-base and NT's emphasis on their other items of interest. I think people are beginning to be less inclined to make excuses for them, as they have in the past. NT/LW3DG is doing this to themselves. The longer they wait to communicate (effectively, not in the slip-shod manner they have been doing), the worse it will get. For many here, there's a tipping point. And for all those "love it or leave it" folks; the less people buying into LW, the less money for development.

lardbros
09-25-2014, 08:44 AM
I do agree... the best form of communication is the way they have always done over at Luxology/Foundry/Modo.

Regular webcasts from the people that are making the software... it inspires confidence in the team, and makes people happy. It doesn't even have to be much or even revealing... just regular interaction, once a month... and people will be happy. I've been saying this for years... and I'm sure it'll happen eventually, as everything I've moaned about in the past has eventually been sorted... Just hope Newtek don't leave it too late to do this... it can only be damaging :(

prometheus
09-25-2014, 09:45 AM
I suspect the ongoing slow decline in LW posting volume has more to do with lack of "official communication" long-term, than the very-short-lived problem with thread notification.

Yes..that could of course have affected people that way.

jeric_synergy
09-25-2014, 10:37 AM
I don't follow The Foundry/Modo/Luxology, but yes, a little bit of communication goes a long way towards emotional buy-in.

I think LW3dG is wise in staying out of the scrum of the forums, BUT they should definitely be doing very controlled webcasts and videos. Once a month even. Throw us a bone. I think a screen cap interview would consume VERY little time to produce, and would help with the less articulate staffers, by not requiring a script per se. These would be focused on one feature.

robertoortiz
09-25-2014, 12:58 PM
I don't follow The Foundry/Modo/Luxology, but yes, a little bit of communication goes a long way towards emotional buy-in.

I think LW3dG is wise in staying out of the scrum of the forums, BUT they should definitely be doing very controlled webcasts and videos. Once a month even. Throw us a bone. I think a screen cap interview would consume VERY little time to produce, and would help with the less articulate staffers, by not requiring a script per se. These would be focused on one feature.

Great post!

jeric_synergy
09-25-2014, 02:00 PM
Thank you. I don't want marketing communications to consume very much effort on the dev team's part, but I do want LW to thrive, and I'd like some more communication myself.

I suggest that BEEVEE, as the dox guy, might have a handle on what's confusing users. Someone sitting down with a dev for 15 minutes, turning on the screen recorder and grilling them about a confusing feature, well, that's not much work is it?

Or maybe they could just pimp the LALWUG videos a bit more. That's often a LW3dG staffer. They're a bit time-consuming to WATCH though, and naturally are not as concise and focused as a Q&A session.

GandB
09-25-2014, 02:34 PM
Yes; that is a good idea Jeric. Although, I would think there are people working for them who aren't actually devs....and who's job it is to do the actual marketing. Could be wrong though.

Dexter2999
09-25-2014, 03:59 PM
Well, moving the threads to the Lightwave site would open the door to dedicated forums which they could introduce the gallery top bar as so many have asked for on this site in the past.

Overall, it could help foster some activity/interest/participation in the LW user community, short of actual product announcments.

jeric_synergy
09-25-2014, 04:39 PM
Yes; that is a good idea Jeric. Although, I would think there are people working for them who aren't actually devs....and who's job it is to do the actual marketing. Could be wrong though.
Yes: those would be the people doing the interviewing. (But really, how many could there be? Plus, the marketing folk may be more 'outward facing', but they don't have the in-depth knowledge of the app we'd like to hear.)

For instance, if I worked there (hey, degree in journalism), I'd talk w/whoever's coding, say FiberFX, and ask "What's the thing users have most trouble with?" or "What's the slickest feature in FFX?" or "How does THIS parameter affect the render?" or "How is this tool misunderstood?". Basically, I'd address their specialty.

And in this day and age, I'd think you could probably do it over Skype.

spherical
09-25-2014, 09:22 PM
Well, moving the threads to the Lightwave site would open the door to dedicated forums which they could introduce the gallery top bar as so many have asked for on this site in the past.

Agreed. With the current organization, it is pretty impossible to showcase any one product over another. Having a dedicated forum, just for LightWave 3D—that is designed for IT, would be a serious plus for users, prospective users, LW3DG and NewTek in general. After all, LightWave already commands the lion's share of the NewTek forums as it is. After TriCaster, 3Play, TalkShow, SpeedEdit and the grouped together Other Products, the other TEN forum sections are LightWave specific. Time it has a forum all to its own. Link to it from here and let it grow as it should. Like I said, the LightWave forums are already admined by Lino and Matt. Steve takes care of all else.

Further, everything in the LightWave 3D Community (https://www.lightwave3d.com/community/) section, not to mention everything else, is: www.lightwave3d.com/[whatever] except the section that is labelled: LIGHTWAVE FORUMS. That link comes here instead; where LightWave is mixed in amongst five other products, and not prominent within them. Huh?

Pretty straightforward to do. Put a second vBulletin install on a different subdomain: forums.lightwave3d.com, copy/clone this database and drop the tables for the sections that aren't the one you are keeping on a respective subdomain, set .htaccess redirect rules to point existing links to the new subdomain, fire each of them back up.

Wickedpup
09-26-2014, 05:06 AM
I do agree... the best form of communication is the way they have always done over at Luxology/Foundry/Modo.
I agree. Just yesterday there was someone from the Foundry popping in and asking for feedback on how to improve the tools for Motion Graphics. Now that is how it should be done.... :boogiedow

SBowie
09-26-2014, 06:13 AM
Having a dedicated forum, just for LightWave 3D—that is designed for IT, would be a serious plus for users, prospective users, LW3DG and NewTek in general.FWIW, I couldn't agree more, and have been saying the exact same things for years. :thumbsup:

lardbros
09-26-2014, 06:37 AM
I agree. Just yesterday there was someone from the Foundry popping in and asking for feedback on how to improve the tools for Motion Graphics. Now that is how it should be done.... :boogiedow

My case in point.
We've never really had that here at all. I think that HAS to change.

If they came to us during the inception of an idea, there is a possibility to stop them in thei tracks before it's too late and they've gone down the dead-end route, or are developing an idea that hardly anyone thinks is good.

I do hope this changes, although... with the history of Newtek as it is, I very much doubt this will happen :(

GandB
09-26-2014, 07:42 AM
I don't mean to keep at it; but I really don't expect a change. If Rob (or NewTek) really cared about user input, or the concerns of the Community as a whole; they would have come on here long ago to interact with users here.....but they still remain silent. The whole "they're damned if they do, and damned if they don't" approach is a cop-out. People are ALWAYS going to be unhappy with something; that doesn't mean you stop communicating openly with your userbase. I mean; we have ZERO idea, as to what version 12/2015 (or whatever) will hold for those that are still around. Other than unification, modeling tool improvement/consolidation (you shouldn't have to spend MORE money to get better functionality....ie., LWCAD) and better interoperability with pipelines (ie., a much better FBX solution); what are they going to produce that would make someone want to upgrade (or purchase as a new user)? I've basically moved into working with Blender, as it is more relevant for game developer work than Lightwave (especially for an engine such as UE4). If I was to purchase anything in the near/distant future, it would be M*d* at this point. They, at least, have a firm grasp on how to communicate with the userbase effectively.

The time for excuses is over, in my opinion; the developers of Lightwave may "not have the time", but they'd better make the time to start communicating. Lightwave no longer sells itself. The subject of this thread further shows how relevant LW is to NewTek, in their portfolio of assets. What a shame.

hrgiger
09-26-2014, 08:10 AM
Have to agree Keith.

Nicolas Jordan
09-26-2014, 08:55 AM
I think there are some great ideas in this thread! Having a dedicated Lightwave forum separate from the other products would definitely make sense. I also think the sense of community, activity and life on these forums has been slowly dwindling mostly since the whole Core thing took place years ago. The online community for this kind of product is very important and should not be taken for granted.

Anyone have ideas on how we can liven things up on these forums?

probiner
09-26-2014, 09:12 AM
I think it's rather natural the other NT products getting upped in the forums, given the perspective they are actually paying the bills.

As for now, I think only when something really new and innovative in the bigger picture comes out of LW it will make sense to have a dedicated forum (even though I wouldn't mind it LW3DG had arranged it already) because then there will be a refresh of the user base:


If workflows in LW change to better, then the info in this forum becomes less vital and you can start to build upon new stuff and leave the old databases where they are.
The new forum would be filling up with users, old and new, instead of being a new home for old folks.
These forums are not exciting but still very useful. And even if broken here and there, they are maintained, spam free and we can still help and receive help here.
Bottom line I think the forums should be part of a marketing strategy, where the central force is the product development. LW community was always a great asset for the product itself, even now, after many departs. It could also be used as a platform for LW3DG to start a new communication strategy. And even though they don't have to open all their private secrets they can certainly be more present and even taunting. But first things first, the product.


Cheers

Surrealist.
09-26-2014, 09:14 AM
I don't think their approach is for everyone. But it seems to work for them.

I think more communication is better on the front. But I think they already know everything the community wants, and I think we already have a fair idea about what they are up to.

They seem to want to keep it basically to themselves.

And at this point the reason the forums are quiet is because there is nothing more to add basiscally. All of the recent threads have pretty much rehashed all the old stuff anyway. And you can only keep that going for so long.

Want to liven up the boards, release LW12. :D

jwiede
09-26-2014, 03:38 PM
I don't think their approach is for everyone. But it seems to work for them.

By what measure are you judging their communication/marketing strategy "working for them" (essentially, successful)? LW3DG revenue growth? Marketshare growth over time? Forum growth over time?

There seems very little evidence to support their strategy being "successful"/"working" by any relevant business measure.

jeric_synergy
09-26-2014, 04:20 PM
By what measure are you judging their communication/marketing strategy "working for them"
I believe the poster was referring to Luxology.

Surrealist.
09-26-2014, 11:48 PM
No I was referring to Newtek. I have never liked their approach to the community. Pretty much ever. It is not for me. But it the way they seem to like to do it. And I don't think it is right to sit in such harsh judgment of people who are working real hard and sticking to the way they prefer to run a business. And at the end of the day improving LightWave greatly. It is a very large task and long range task. I think they are doing it the best way they know how. Lord knows I and many people over time have suggested that they open up. Has that changed? No. Conclusion. It is not the way they prefer to do business. Will they fail? Who knows. I don't think there is one single person on this forum qualified - or even armed with the actual factual statistical data - to make such a call.

Do business achieve more success by having a better relationship with their community? Of course they do. But it is not a live or die situation.

At the end of the day LW 12 will be what it is. People will love it or hate it and it will sell based on the tools it has. And yes, some people will not stick around because of lack of communication. Some people will get frustrated. But the bottom line is people will buy into LightWave based on what it can or can not do for their production pipeline. That goes for now and into the future.

I use the products in my studio fro what they do. That's me. And I am sure that a lot of other people feel the same way.

jeric_synergy
09-27-2014, 02:19 AM
No I was referring to Newtek.
My mistake.

stevecullum
09-27-2014, 05:30 AM
My case in point.
We've never really had that here at all. I think that HAS to change.

If they came to us during the inception of an idea, there is a possibility to stop them in thei tracks before it's too late and they've gone down the dead-end route, or are developing an idea that hardly anyone thinks is good.

I do hope this changes, although... with the history of Newtek as it is, I very much doubt this will happen :(

I have to disagree. Crowd sourcing ideas and design sounds good in practice, but in reality you end up with a lot of noise to sift through. This slows down development IMHO. Besides, from a business PoV how would you gain a competitive advantage if you have all your ideas out in the open? I think it's better to have a focused group of people from a variety of backgrounds giving feedback, than everyone from all over trying to assist with the design process.

spherical
09-27-2014, 01:37 PM
Agreed. Noise is the last thing you need when you're trying to think and create; especially if that which you are creating is complex. Just look at the cruft to gem ratio of these forums. There are some good ideas, but they're thinly scattered amongst the unending grumbling, boring speculations and downright rants. It's been mentioned that the posting frequency is down and that is a sign that LightWave is in trouble. Well, it also could be that Proton's admonition to create something—anything, as opposed to starting useless threads complaining about one's tools, is having a positive influence and people are doing just that. Hope springs eternal.

prometheus
09-27-2014, 05:25 PM
Agreed. Noise is the last thing you need when you're trying to think and create; especially if that which you are creating is complex. Just look at the cruft to gem ratio of these forums. There are some good ideas, but they're thinly scattered amongst the unending grumbling, boring speculations and downright rants. It's been mentioned that the posting frequency is down and that is a sign that LightWave is in trouble. Well, it also could be that Proton's admonition to create something—anything, as opposed to starting useless threads complaining about one's tools, is having a positive influence and people are doing just that. Hope springs eternal.

well..just speculations..could be more variables causing it.

Wickedpup
09-27-2014, 06:01 PM
Besides, from a business PoV how would you gain a competitive advantage if you have all your ideas out in the open?
Using this thread as an example..... http://community.thefoundry.co.uk/discussion/topic.aspx?f=4&t=92716&page=1 what advantage does the competition gain from this? Apart from knowing that they are going to work on Mograph related tools? What you gain in the other hand is users/customers feeling they are being heard....and I doubt it took a lot of resources.

Dexter2999
09-27-2014, 06:07 PM
Well, if they don't want to give away development stuff, monthly/biweekly videos showcasing a current feature/tool might go further than presenting the list of training to new users. Or even might show older users something they didn't know because they didn't want to plow through the pile of stuff they already knew to gleen something useful. Or perhaps even non-LW specific vid's like how LW users use it in their pipeline, not a gloss over, or even necessarily a step-by-step but perhaps a middle of the road walk through video. These kinds of things could help make the user base better educated while sparking discussion, examination of techniques, possible ideas for improvements of process, etc. on the forums.

Or if you thought of the newsletter not as an annual publication/promotional effort, but as a continual grooming of your userbase that gets done on a more regular basis. It is rich in content (not always new) but it doesn't have to come in a flood. Especially in today's "bite sized" social media stream of consciousness temperament.

User spotlights are welcome. I think some on the dev team would also be welcome. Who are they? What is their outlook on life? What influences how they look at solving problems and creating new solutions?
Lightwave3D Group may be a software company but it is a media company as well. How about you make some?

spherical
09-27-2014, 07:44 PM
well..just speculations..could be more variables causing it.

Of course. I was looking at the bright side.

pinkmouse
09-28-2014, 01:38 AM
... Well, it also could be that Proton's admonition to create something—anything, as opposed to starting useless threads complaining about one's tools, is having a positive influence and people are doing just that..

If that were the case, I'd be expecting an increase in the number of threads asking "how do I do this?",or "what does this do?". What's even more worrying is the almost complete absence of threads from newbies, even Tony Blair couldn't spin that into anything positive.

spherical
09-28-2014, 02:52 AM
Actually, there are one or two who have increased their "how do I do this?",or "what does this do?" posts. The forum has become their interactive manual in these cases.

As for new users... you haven't been paying attention. I've addressed at least four questions just today.

UnCommonGrafx
09-28-2014, 09:38 AM
Classical psychology would say this is classical conditioning: it is working for them as they are getting the right feedback to continue on that path.

There are a LOT of new users, it would seem. Many from other apps, just adding lw to their arsenals. I think a lot of diehards (count me as one) have opened up to learning new systems that have enhanced their lw knowledge.

The sky has been falling here for a long time.

To the point of this thread: Whatever got moved up costs more. Period. Folks who pay +$25k per tool want as quick an access as they can get to the info they want. I'm sure they are wondering why they have to read all this LW crap when they are looking for info on their +25k doohickie. I sit on the fence (edit: TriCaster user), and like Steve, wonder why they don't manage this a little better. Micromanagement from the top, and my first sentence, suggest that this will stay as it has since the 80's.
Sad, really.


No I was referring to Newtek. I have never liked their approach to the community. Pretty much ever. It is not for me. But it the way they seem to like to do it. And I don't think it is right to sit in such harsh judgment of people who are working real hard and sticking to the way they prefer to run a business. And at the end of the day improving LightWave greatly. It is a very large task and long range task. I think they are doing it the best way they know how. Lord knows I and many people over time have suggested that they open up. Has that changed? No. Conclusion. It is not the way they prefer to do business. Will they fail? Who knows. I don't think there is one single person on this forum qualified - or even armed with the actual factual statistical data - to make such a call.

Do business achieve more success by having a better relationship with their community? Of course they do. But it is not a live or die situation.

At the end of the day LW 12 will be what it is. People will love it or hate it and it will sell based on the tools it has. And yes, some people will not stick around because of lack of communication. Some people will get frustrated. But the bottom line is people will buy into LightWave based on what it can or can not do for their production pipeline. That goes for now and into the future.

I use the products in my studio fro what they do. That's me. And I am sure that a lot of other people feel the same way.

lardbros
09-28-2014, 10:34 AM
I have to disagree. Crowd sourcing ideas and design sounds good in practice, but in reality you end up with a lot of noise to sift through. This slows down development IMHO. Besides, from a business PoV how would you gain a competitive advantage if you have all your ideas out in the open? I think it's better to have a focused group of people from a variety of backgrounds giving feedback, than everyone from all over trying to assist with the design process.

Yep, understand that there would be too much noise, but you can limit the noise by at least having a voting system for new features.
I think this way would work very well indeed... And it clearly does for other developers.

Most other developers involve the community in some way, by having a voting system in place for new features, and the top votes item will pretty much always be in the next release.
This is a great way of involving a community... Making sure they get what the majority is after AND keeping them at bay when a new release come out. Users simply cannot say that the developers haven't listened to them... Because they have, and the people who bother to vote, get their way.

This happened with 3dsmax 2015... Admittedly, the tool was just a quad chamfer, but it was chosen by the community... And it has been nicely implemented.

RebelHill
09-28-2014, 10:57 AM
you can limit the noise by at least having a voting system for new features

Remember a couple years ago when NT put up a vote for which subjects users would most like to see new tutorials made to cover...

How many of those saw the light of day?

jeric_synergy
09-28-2014, 11:06 AM
Actually, there are one or two who have increased their "how do I do this?",or "what does this do?" posts. The forum has become their interactive manual in these cases.
As a MANUAL, the forums are terrible,

because of the terrible Search capabilities (ameliorated by Google, Buddha bless 'em)
the diffuse nature of the information (non-centralization)
the time-bound(-ish) nature of posts

Don't get me wrong, as a resource the forums are invaluable. But a REAL interactive manual, essentially a WIKI, would be far better: everything we discuss in the forums could be added to the WIKI (including links to the forum threads) to reduce the DIFFUSE nature of the forum-based information. And we wouldn't have to wait essentially FOREVER for corrections and omissions to be righted.

Many of my fogbugz reports are about clean OMISSIONS from the manual. They're STILL NOT THERE, even though with PDF manuals inserting omissions should be a breeze. C'mon, it's the g**d**n 21st Century already!!!

lardbros
09-28-2014, 01:27 PM
Remember a couple years ago when NT put up a vote for which subjects users would most like to see new tutorials made to cover...

How many of those saw the light of day?

Ha... Oh yeah... Totally forgot about that.

It obviously needs to be followed through to a conclusion.
No half-arsed voting!

spherical
09-28-2014, 06:23 PM
As a MANUAL, the forums are terrible,

Not if the answer comes back to you without you having to do anything but ask a question.


Don't get me wrong, as a resource the forums are invaluable. But a REAL interactive manual, essentially a WIKI, would be far better:

We know.

prometheus
09-29-2014, 06:39 AM
And now the preset central is down, just to add more salt in the blood of the speculation paranoia:devil:

Cageman
09-29-2014, 03:00 PM
Well this, and I've recently been told at work that after bringing LightWave in to the studio and using it in production for over a year, they're now thinking about changing over to Maya or some other platform because they can't find any 3D artists in my area that know LightWave. *sigh*

This sucks. And the reason for that is that 3D-schools nowdays are very narrowminded and the teachers are simply not aware of alternatives to what AD offers. LW3DG needs to make a HUGE effort in offering free lics to schools and students and market LW a lot more in those areas. There are tons of LW-users who masters, not just LW, but tools like Maya/3DS Max/Houdini and Motionbuilder as well. These people should be encouraged from LW3DG to attend these schools and talk about how they _actually_ solve problems and that, in many cases, it involves a bunch of 3DCC tools.

Cageman
09-29-2014, 03:09 PM
I suspect the ongoing slow decline in LW posting volume has more to do with lack of "official communication" long-term, than the very-short-lived problem with thread notification.

I have to agree with you on this. There are many ways to communicate about the future, but LW-users seem to take things a little bit too litterally (and ex-LW-users on the Modo-forums even more so), so I guess LW3DGīs approach is more about controlling missinformation and speculation, rather than not communicating with the community, if you get what I'm writing? It has become a moment 22 for LW3DG in that sense.

prometheus
09-29-2014, 03:17 PM
This sucks. And the reason for that is that 3D-schools nowdays are very narrowminded and the teachers are simply not aware of alternatives to what AD offers. LW3DG needs to make a HUGE effort in offering free lics to schools and students and market LW a lot more in those areas. There are tons of LW-users who masters, not just LW, but tools like Maya/3DS Max/Houdini and Motionbuilder as well. These people should be encouraged from LW3DG to attend these schools and talk about how they _actually_ solve problems and that, in many cases, it involves a bunch of 3DCC tools.


Agreed, it is unfortunate that teachers or schools seem to have blindfolds and have only seen or only want to see autodesk standard in front of them, because it is de facto industry standard, however... it is also unfortunate that one(at least I do) can understand that case of reasoning too..since whatīs the point of educating students in a tool the market do not use as a standard, when the market is screaming in their ads for people sending their application with a resume and understanding of max and vray, so thatīs what the schools will be using.

I really donīt know a way around that..except a very aggressive marketing in media ..in student licensing/price, and the lightwave group need to know where to find the targets and which ones to aim at.
It could also use very innovative new technology that really would make a buzz all around the market, chronosculpt,nevronmotion...perhaps, though I think it needs to be "baked"within lightwave to make it truly attractive as
a selling incitament.

Cageman
09-29-2014, 03:19 PM
No I was referring to Newtek. I have never liked their approach to the community. Pretty much ever. It is not for me. But it the way they seem to like to do it. And I don't think it is right to sit in such harsh judgment of people who are working real hard and sticking to the way they prefer to run a business. And at the end of the day improving LightWave greatly. It is a very large task and long range task. I think they are doing it the best way they know how. Lord knows I and many people over time have suggested that they open up. Has that changed? No. Conclusion. It is not the way they prefer to do business. Will they fail? Who knows. I don't think there is one single person on this forum qualified - or even armed with the actual factual statistical data - to make such a call.

They did try that during LW9.x series. They posted a fairly detailed feature-list of what LW9.x series was about, even before LW9.0 was to be released. What happened though, was that, at the end of the 9.x series, it created a very angry mob of people who complained loudly about the fact that 1/3 (or something like that) of the "promised" features never got in. It created a heated and hatefull debacle.

CORE is another example of NT promising something, that never really worked out. Again, it resulted in a heated and hatefull debacle.

I would argue that, if LW12 is working out, I guess they (LW3DG) will also start to slowly open up again, but with HUGE disclaimers everywhere.

prometheus
09-29-2014, 03:22 PM
I have to agree with you on this. There are many ways to communicate about the future, but LW-users seem to take things a little bit too litterally (and ex-LW-users on the Modo-forums even more so), so I guess LW3DGīs approach is more about controlling missinformation and speculation, rather than not communicating with the community, if you get what I'm writing? It has become a moment 22 for LW3DG in that sense.

Agreed here too..

spherical
09-29-2014, 03:25 PM
so I guess LW3DGīs approach is more about controlling missinformation and speculation, rather than not communicating with the community,

Sitting by, being silent and doing nothing isn't an effective way to control anything. In that environment, speculation,—as we have handily seen—thrives and along with it breeds misinformation.

Heck, even periodic communications that have little actual relevant content serve to lend a sense of caring about the userbase. Just let people know (or feel) that they are valued. Ignoring has a way of developing its own life that, quite probably, is not the intention. Still, the feeling grows. It'll grow until someone steps up to change it.

Cageman
09-29-2014, 03:28 PM
Sitting by, being silent and doing nothing isn't an effective way to control anything. In that environment, speculation,—as we have handily seen—thrives and along with it breeds misinformation.

The speculation going on is not rooted in something LW3DG have said or mentioned. Speculation, nowdays, are pure speculation and not rooted in something that was mentioned by the developer. Huge difference.

spherical
09-29-2014, 03:30 PM
The speculation going on is not rooted in something LW3DG have said or mentioned. Speculation, nowdays, are pure speculation and not rooted in something that was mentioned by the developer. Huge difference.

And THAT is MY POINT!

WilliamVaughan
09-29-2014, 03:38 PM
"And the reason for that is that 3D-schools nowdays are very narrowminded and the teachers are simply not aware of alternatives to what AD offers."

Couldnt disagree more with this mindset.

Cageman
09-29-2014, 03:46 PM
And THAT is MY POINT!

No... it not a point you are making. The silence that LW3DG are using is simply to make sure to not create an unnecessary hype based on what someone from LW3DG say, prior to knowing if it will work out or not. As in... "do not promise, instead deliver more". Because that is what LW3DG can do now, since none of us actually know what is going on. They can make a positive surprise. LW11 was a very, very good example of a delivery that was a hell of a lot more than what people expected. Yes... some said "It should have been in LW10.x". While I agree, to some extent to that, NT were also working on CORE at the same time as LW10.x and never really got the greenlight to ditch CORE and develop classic LW further.

As I mentioned in one of my earlier posts; it has been totally fatal for NewTek to talk about LW and the roadmap in the past. Don't you agree to that? We, as users, made it extremely fatal for them to do so, and we gave them a very good signal to why they should shut up about "promises" and "roadmaps". Because we ended up hating them rather than loving them and the product. It is so much more easy to pick the bad things out and complain and call developers names, rather than look at what was done and accomplished.

As a developer myself (in the games industry) I do have a huge understanding towards LW3DG and their silence. But... with time and with patience, I think that silence can slowly be removed.

So... yes... all the speculaiton going on now from users are based on nothing; in the past it was based on something that LW3DG mentioned... the reality turned out that it couldn't be accomplished in the timeframe; with such odds, better to keep silent and do some work and put the proof in the pudding before saying anything official.

Cageman
09-29-2014, 03:54 PM
"And the reason for that is that 3D-schools nowdays are very narrowminded and the teachers are simply not aware of alternatives to what AD offers."

Couldnt disagree more with this mindset.

- - - Updated - - -


"And the reason for that is that 3D-schools nowdays are very narrowminded and the teachers are simply not aware of alternatives to what AD offers."

Couldnt disagree more with this mindset.

Here in Sweden it is all Autodesk with some few courses of C4D for mograph. So, you are wrong about that and I guess more people here in Europe would agree with my sentiment of the quality of 3D schools here in Europe. They are, of course great in teaching 3D and AD products, but people here... students that come to Massive, they don't even _know_ about LW or Messiah... heck... they have no knowledge about the history of how 3D started. They are all _very_ AD oriented, and ZBrush, of course. They have _no clue_ that "one size fits all" is just not true.

Fewer and fewer are also generalists. They tend to be very tailorded towards an industry where you become a Character modeler, Hard surface modeler, Rigger, Animator etc. No-one is really that interested in knowing how to do most, if not all, themselves. That is the trend I see here in Sweden at least when it comes to most students that I've come across.

lardbros
09-29-2014, 03:57 PM
I kind of think these days, more than ever before, is a time where any one person, within a studio, can use any 3d application they choose, and STILL fit into a studio pipeline. I use a multitude of software each day at work... And use the one that gets the job done fastest. If it's lighting and rendering, I'll nearly always use LightWave as I love VPR and the look of the renderer.
If I want to model in 3dsmax though... I can, and then fairly easily (a bit of an exaggeration... FBX support could be waaaay better) get my animation/models/cameras over to LightWave if I need to later.
I also think the stronger Newtek makes the interchange tools and compatibility between other DCC (digital content creation) applications, the more likely we are to see LightWave adopted as another tool to use. It's fairly cheap, and is still the fastest tool for me when creating content.

prometheus
09-29-2014, 04:11 PM
Im pretty sure this is one of the lightwave groups favourite youtube clip...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n03g8nsaBro

prometheus
09-29-2014, 04:17 PM
"And the reason for that is that 3D-schools nowdays are very narrowminded and the teachers are simply not aware of alternatives to what AD offers."

Couldnt disagree more with this mindset.


should been specified, 3d schools in sweden, that is simply the truth if you look at what cageman also noticed.
I know a teacher who had some courses ..mostly max..but he also incorporated modo, and I go..wait, what about lightwave? even though I pushed on some glory points....well no good respons and big interest, full blindfolds on..I suspect due to old rumours and old lw architechture ..since that was what I could percieve from his grunting and disbeliefs.

The story in spain and the us, might of course be completly different.

Cageman
09-29-2014, 04:23 PM
I kind of think these days, more than ever before, is a time where any one person, within a studio, can use any 3d application they choose, and STILL fit into a studio pipeline. I use a multitude of software each day at work... And use the one that gets the job done fastest. If it's lighting and rendering, I'll nearly always use LightWave as I love VPR and the look of the renderer.
If I want to model in 3dsmax though... I can, and then fairly easily (a bit of an exaggeration... FBX support could be waaaay better) get my animation/models/cameras over to LightWave if I need to later.
I also think the stronger Newtek makes the interchange tools and compatibility between other DCC (digital content creation) applications, the more likely we are to see LightWave adopted as another tool to use. It's fairly cheap, and is still the fastest tool for me when creating content.

For this to work though, you need people that understands how data-pipelines are constructed. When I talk to students about vertex caches, such as MCC, MDD or Alembic... I get an empty face response... they have no clue. FBX they do know, because that is the only way to get a rig done in Maya over to Motionbuilder. They use goZ in order to move data from Maya into ZBrush.

I wonder what would happen if, all of a sudden, all these "automagic tools" they use would break down so that they have to resort to doing things manually? Do they even understand how the data flows and what makes it flow? Do they have the theoretical knowledge of what is going on behind the scenes when they press "goZ"?

I'm not so sure of that, to be honest.

lardbros
09-29-2014, 04:41 PM
Sadly, even people in my office didn't know what geometry caches were until I introduced them. Not a huge need for us to use them from day to day, but I still do, just to clean my scenes up a bit, and make them available for use in other software, if needs be.

Anyway... I do agree with you cageman!

Dexter2999
09-29-2014, 04:56 PM
And the reason for that is that 3D-schools nowdays are very narrowminded and the teachers are simply not aware of alternatives to what AD offers.

I think most people who are teaching 3D are aware of the alternatives. I think the decision becomes a financial decision for the institution which AD make a hard financial argument. And also from the view that they want their students to have the best chance of success as possible in a given field, then they would sensibly teach the software that most companies. (Also hard to argue with.)

Everybody uses it, because everybody uses it.

prometheus
09-29-2014, 05:13 PM
I wonder over the possibility to add vray, and if such it might not be a such big deal if the main core is max,maya or lightwave...I wonder this since a lot of the request is the knowledge and use of the vray standards many are after.
since juangon is doing a lot of stuff now with octane,arnold...a vray port could sound awesome, and the hdr light studio also seem to be well implemented to work smoothly with lightwave compared to others.
Vray and we would have a lot of candy to pick from .lightwaveīs own, arnold,octane,maxwell and vray..o my.

prometheus
09-29-2014, 05:36 PM
Autodesk had a very agressive marketing approach and the swedish autodesk office did actually call me up, after I have downloaded their trial demo of autodesk cad suites..I think they called me a second time even..but at the time there was no need to change cad tools, and personally I didnīt have any interest or need in it at that time either.

A lightwave sweden office maybe, I can do some research and visit in person and present lightwave and Ple learning versions :)
there is a retailer in sweden called lanlink
http://www.lanlink.se/
..where I actually bought my lw version, they seemed to have discontinued the lighwave retail, fair enough if newtek and the lightwave group have decided to focus that on other sites as liberty3d etc.
they do sell the tricaster system though.

But even so..lanlink donīt have a large community exposure to market lightwave, thereīs also a site called creativetools.se and I asked them why they donīt have lightwave in there to market, and they responded that they would like to..but they said newtek didnīt want them as a retailer..so now they are marketing autodesk products, maya, max,vray,cinema4d, rhino,vue,plant factory...along with their big hardware stuff, makerbot and other 3d printers including the higher price ranged proffesional 3d printers.

they are covering some interesting articles over mail news..and even chris jones work showed up there and they were amazed, but lightwave as the tool was kind of hidden.
creative tools also have a swedish forum to reach out to animators and thereīs a section for job ads where companies from time to time put up ads.

Unfortunatly the crossgrade expires today...
I was thinking of actually posting a thread about the cross grade on that forum...but no point unless they do a special extension on it, I noticed some guys at daz studio were interested, but didnīt understand
the price offer..might have sounded to good to be true.

Otherwise the lightwave or newtek group should really consider contacting creative tools and provide them with info/deals of student versions and full versions....and simply be seen there.
http://www.creativetools.se/software
Lightwave needs to be seen in such places and market itself, might be small market..but every straw to the stack or every drop to an ocean makes it bigger.


Michael

spherical
09-29-2014, 10:10 PM
The silence that LW3DG are using is simply to make sure to not create an unnecessary hype based on what someone from LW3DG say, prior to knowing if it will work out or not. As in... "do not promise, instead deliver more".

I know. Been over this a bazillion times. My point is that it is better to say something, anything, rather than to allow pure BS speculation to run away unchecked.

prometheus
09-30-2014, 09:13 AM
I know. Been over this a bazillion times. My point is that it is better to say something, anything, rather than to allow pure BS speculation to run away unchecked.

Agreed.

Maybe..Hi my name is Rob, we are working hard right now with extensive work on new features and rewrite of old tools and we will soon get back to you all with exciting news.

lardbros
09-30-2014, 10:06 AM
Agreed.

Maybe..Hi my name is Rob, we are working hard right now with extensive work on new features and rewrite of old tools and we will soon get back to you all with exciting news.

Haha... honestly, this would be a nice thing. They really don't have to say much... but feeding us little info, but regularly (once a month) would do a HUGE amount to inspire confidence from the users!!!

lwaddict
09-30-2014, 08:24 PM
The real question is when will there be a crossgrade to Maya?

Surrealist.
09-30-2014, 09:39 PM
Cross grade to Maya?

You mean AD offering a deal to come to Maya from other packages?

There is already AFAIK. (contact me privately if you are serious - not exactly appropriate here)

And there is also a cross grade offer the other way to LightWave from Maya.

djwaterman
10-01-2014, 02:11 AM
Agreed.

Maybe..Hi my name is Rob, we are working hard right now with extensive work on new features and rewrite of old tools and we will soon get back to you all with exciting news.

Okay, so this is how that might go..."

RP-"Hi my name is Rob, we are working hard right now with extensive work on new features and rewrite of old tools and we will soon get back to

you all with exciting news."

LWer1- "Great to hear Rob. Could that exciting news include unification?"

LWer2- "Cool thanks for keeping us in the loop, I'd also like to know if V12 is unified."

LWer3- "How soon is soon Rob? I'm excited."

RP- "I can't say when exactly, but soon. I'm glad you're excited."

LWer1- "Can I take it then since you didn't answer my question that unification is not part of that exciting news?"

LWer2- "Yeah, I asked also and he didn't go there, this doesn't look good as far as a unified V12."

RP- "All I can say is we are hard at work making LW better, I really can't be specific right now I'm sorry."

LWer1- "Okay got ya, loud and clear. No unification."

LWer2- "Helloooo Blender."

RP- "I simply can't be specific at this moment, please appreciate we have to keep development close to our chests."

LWer1- "The fact you wont say yes or no speaks volumes."

LWer2- "The only way to make Lightwave better is through unification."

LWer3- ""New features"..."rewrite old tools", none of that sounds like unification to me."

LWer4- "I don't mind a better LW, unification isn't a deal breaker for me."

LWer1 -"Fanboys like you are what's keeping Lightwave down."

LWer2- "Some people don't deserve life."

LWer3- "Burn him with fire!"

RP- "Guys, really, LW12, when it comes, will be a great release. I can't say any more."

LWer1- "Great means unified right?"

LWer2- "Hoo boy, sounds like it. I'm pumped for a unified V12."

LWer3- "Finally our dreams have been answered."

LWer4- "Er, he didn't actually say that."

LWer1- "Shut up! We burnt you with fire already!"

bazsa73
10-01-2014, 02:42 AM
http://forums.newtek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=124606&d=1412152836

djwaterman
10-01-2014, 04:50 AM
That should go in the next newsletter.

GandB
10-01-2014, 05:32 AM
There's going to be a next newsletter?

lardbros
10-01-2014, 05:34 AM
Haha... that's a brilliant drawing, love it!! :D

jeric_synergy
10-01-2014, 08:13 AM
Okay, so this is how that might go..."
It's like you can see the Future!!! ;)

Or: "Might"?

Shabazzy
10-01-2014, 10:58 AM
Wow!

I can only comment on the issue of those posters in this thread making the claim of the perceived lack of communication from LW3DG, to them not being aware of social media.

I've not been a social media user for very long (I resisted it far longer than I perhaps should have), but since opening an account I have gained a lot of communications from LW3DG. They post something I'd otherwise not have known about pretty much every week.

For example, I'm not sure if it was reported here, but through following them on social media they made me aware that they have a new vimeo channel and they post videos from various users using vimeo giving examples to their use of LightWave, from production workflows to tutorials to interviews and more.

Now I'm not saying that everything they post is of interest to me or gives me the inside scoop on what's being cooked behind the scenes, but I am saying that they DO communicate with their followers very regularly. And it seems to me that those who've posted here complaining about 'radio silence' from them aren't tuned into the right frequencies.

I'd say that NewTek and LW3DG have changed their communications strategies to be more inline with modern times and I think they've found it extremely successful for them. It wouldn't surprise me if they viewed the forums as a place just for users now, and their website and social media accounts for doing serious business communications and promotion.

I think if you really want to be in the loop, then you need to forget how things were done in the past and start adopting how they're being done now and in the future.

SBowie
10-01-2014, 11:07 AM
Okay, so this is how that might go...""Wow! I think I actually recognized most of those LWers! :D

ncr100
10-01-2014, 11:22 AM
(Two more posts SBowie until you reach 15,000.)

SBowie
10-01-2014, 11:33 AM
(Two more posts SBowie until you reach 15,000.)True ... I'd best plan some sort of spectacular for the next one, then! :)

GandB
10-01-2014, 11:46 AM
I see a number of users making excuses for NT/LW3DG. We should not have to go hunting for information, they should bring it to us....by all available means: Social, Forum, Newsletters, email (other than special pricing promos), etc. They know users are here, yet they choose to leave the forum out of the loop every day. They will flourish or fail of their own volition. But you can't blame the userbase for the very poor showing of info (no SIGGRAPH, etc.). I find myself shaking my head more and more these days. There's obviously two groups of user here, though we all seem to want the same thing.

Megalodon2.0
10-01-2014, 01:44 PM
I see a number of users making excuses for NT/LW3DG. We should not have to go hunting for information, they should bring it to us....by all available means: Social, Forum, Newsletters, email (other than special pricing promos), etc. They know users are here, yet they choose to leave the forum out of the loop every day. They will flourish or fail of their own volition. But you can't blame the userbase for the very poor showing of info (no SIGGRAPH, etc.). I find myself shaking my head more and more these days. There's obviously two groups of user here, though we all seem to want the same thing.

Well said. Any and ALL information about LW should be posted at multiple sources - NOT just social media sites.

Shabazzy
10-01-2014, 02:43 PM
Well said. Any and ALL information about LW should be posted at multiple sources - NOT just social media sites.

Nobody said they were only communicating via social media sites.

In fact they are posting information through multiple mediums, it's just that social media is better suited for keepiing up with the latest information because it's so fast paced. Even newspapers update their social media quicker than their printed newspapers, electronic newsletters and websites. Why should NT and LW3DG be any different?

And @GandB, how are they not bringing the news to you? If you follow them on social media or subscribe to their newsletters, they do bring the new to you. It takes more effort to visit the forums and dig around the threads to check if there's any new information than it does to get a notification in your email that tells you there's some new information waiting for you.

You guys are seriously unbelievable. You really are.

prometheus
10-01-2014, 03:05 PM
Wow!

I can only comment on the issue of those posters in this thread making the claim of the perceived lack of communication from LW3DG, to them not being aware of social media.

I've not been a social media user for very long (I resisted it far longer than I perhaps should have), but since opening an account I have gained a lot of communications from LW3DG. They post something I'd otherwise not have known about pretty much every week.

For example, I'm not sure if it was reported here, but through following them on social media they made me aware that they have a new vimeo channel and they post videos from various users using vimeo giving examples to their use of LightWave, from production workflows to tutorials to interviews and more.

Now I'm not saying that everything they post is of interest to me or gives me the inside scoop on what's being cooked behind the scenes, but I am saying that they DO communicate with their followers very regularly. And it seems to me that those who've posted here complaining about 'radio silence' from them aren't tuned into the right frequencies.

I'd say that NewTek and LW3DG have changed their communications strategies to be more inline with modern times and I think they've found it extremely successful for them. It wouldn't surprise me if they viewed the forums as a place just for users now, and their website and social media accounts for doing serious business communications and promotion.

I think if you really want to be in the loop, then you need to forget how things were done in the past and start adopting how they're being done now and in the future.


oh my, to bad I wonīt join in to the social media then, personally I think it is highly overrated...like love, just equal to a dose of chocklets....and I wonīt join in on facebook, Ill try to keep it that way until I am back in diaper, then I might because I will at that time probably donīt understand what it is.

most folks are here, and can discuss more effectivly in our special categories...I would like to think that is a better way to communicate, just feels like a bad excuse to justify it on..we have switch our communication to another media platform.

Good to see Mr Sbowie jumping in with a smiley every once and a while, itīs not necessary to say much, a smile will do fine sometimes..just so we donīt have to poke at your etheral bodies to ensure you havenīt turned in to zombieīs in the communication area.


Read my profile

kopperdrake
10-01-2014, 03:10 PM
In my case too, just stopped coming back so often as I wasn't getting notified.

If it continued for a few months, like last time, it would be damaging... I pretty much gave up on this place when it happened.

I started using it less when we had the issue with new posts not showing up properly, and the search of older threads getting borked. Plus sifting through unrelated product threads was a bit of a headache. I don't really have the time I use to have, so gravitated away from using the forums over time.

Megalodon2.0
10-01-2014, 03:15 PM
Are you serious?


Nobody said they were only communicating via social media sites.

In fact they are posting information through multiple mediums, it's just that social media is better suited for keepiing up with the latest information because it's so fast paced. Even newspapers update their social media quicker than their printed newspapers, electronic newsletters and websites. Why should NT and LW3DG be any different?

Isn't it interesting that people such as myself subscribe to their intermittent newsletters and attend this site regularly - as do MANY - and yet there are many who still believe (and rightly so) that NT is not communicating. I guess EVERYONE saying this is wrong and there is lots of communication HERE but we just can't find it?


And @GandB, how are they not bringing the news to you? If you follow them on social media or subscribe to their newsletters, they do bring the new to you. It takes more effort to visit the forums and dig around the threads to check if there's any new information than it does to get a notification in your email that tells you there's some new information waiting for you.
When was the last newsletter? When did they say ANYTHING about LW and what is going on? And AGAIN, why should anyone HAVE top subscribe to social media to learn what is going on about LW when their own forum can't provide that information?


You guys are seriously unbelievable. You really are.

No - YOU really are unbelievable. Making excuses for a company that OBVIOUSLY cannot communicate effectively with its customer base. There are enough people here that should prove that to you. Open YOUR eyes.

prometheus
10-01-2014, 03:21 PM
These latest post is fun, itīs sort of like, we are having a meeting and we will tell everyone some news, but we donīt tell you that we have moved to another room, so some of you guys are sitting in a empty room blabbering for yourself.
Sure move the meeting to another room, but please visit the first room and let us know that it should be in the next room.


should we community members start a campaign? we all go the silence route, and simply stop posting any thread at all and see what happens?
After all silence is golden, and after that we could all come out pretty rich...community users as well as newtek and the lightwave group.

bazsa73
10-01-2014, 03:29 PM
I dont care anymore. This late harvest muscotello solved my problems.

prometheus
10-01-2014, 03:31 PM
the communication from newtek or the lightwave group reminds me of the movie Birdy....and in the end mathew modineīs character is sitting there in his posture like a canarian and says nothing, finally nicholas cageīs character managed to get him to say a few words in the end, when he asked why he didnīt talk, and mathewīs character says " I didnīt have anything to say" I suspect this is the curious case of newtek/lightwave group too...without the posture, I think?..or they could indeed have turned in to that posture when wrestling with the solving of advanced impossible codes in lightwave.

:D

We need to shake that bird in that cage...to get at tweet at least, I fear it might only show up as, hello ..hello on twitter though.

I hope we donīt have to go as far as john cleese walking in to the pet shop and complain about a dead parrot.

Megalodon2.0
10-01-2014, 03:34 PM
These latest post is fun, itīs sort of like, we are having a meeting and we will tell everyone some news, but we donīt tell you that we have moved to another room, so some of you guys are sitting in a empty room blabbering for yourself.
Sure move the meeting to another room, but please visit the first room and let us know that it should be in the next room.
THAT... is a perfect analogy!:thumbsup:

Shabazzy
10-01-2014, 04:02 PM
oh my, to bad I wonīt join in to the social media then, personally I think it is highly overrated...like love, just equal to a dose of chocklets....and I wonīt join in on facebook, Ill try to keep it that way until I am back in diaper, then I might because I will at that time probably donīt understand what it is.

That's your right and I respect your entitlement to make that decision. I think it's fair that the same respect should be granted to NT and LW3DG for their decisions.


most folks are here, and can discuss more effectivly in our special categories...I would like to think that is a better way to communicate, just feels like a bad excuse to justify it on..we have switch our communication to another media platform.

A classic case of selective hearing (or reading in this case). I have not stated that anyone needs to switch their preferred communication method to discuss their special categories. I said I felt that NT/LW3DG may now see 'the forums being for the users' and I don't think that's an unfair assessment to make. So no one is asking you to change that. Use the forums in the way you currently do, just don't expect NT/LW3DG to do the same. Their business model may have out grown it.



Are you serious?

Very.


Isn't it interesting that people such as myself subscribe to their intermittent newsletters and attend this site regularly - as do MANY - and yet there are many who still believe (and rightly so) that NT is not communicating. I guess EVERYONE saying this is wrong and there is lots of communication HERE but we just can't find it?

What's more important to you? The actual information or where it's located?


When was the last newsletter?
The last newsletter I got was on the 3rd September 2014. That was the August/September newsletter.

When did they say ANYTHING about LW and what is going on?
Newsletter: 3rd Sept 2014
Social: 1 Oct 2014

And AGAIN, why should anyone HAVE top subscribe to social media to learn what is going on about LW when their own forum can't provide that information?
Point 1.
No one is saying you HAVE to subscribe to social media for anything, but IF you WANT the information you crave for, then that's where you'll find it.

Point 2.
If they don't want to keep updating the forums every hour with new information that cater to a closed group of people who are already customers but would rather use tools that are better suited to expose their products to a wider audience, some of whom who may never have heard of LW, then I for one see that as a very smart, productive and efficient use of personnel and information dissemination. Better exposure equals better business opportunities.


No - YOU really are unbelievable. Making excuses for a company that OBVIOUSLY cannot communicate effectively with its customer base. There are enough people here that should prove that to you. Open YOUR eyes.

Well if seeing things your way equates to having your eyes open, then I'm glad my eyes are closed because shouting at windmills ain't my thing.

Shabazzy
10-01-2014, 04:08 PM
These latest post is fun, itīs sort of like, we are having a meeting and we will tell everyone some news, but we donīt tell you that we have moved to another room, so some of you guys are sitting in a empty room blabbering for yourself.
Sure move the meeting to another room, but please visit the first room and let us know that it should be in the next room.

You seriously didn't know that they use social media? Don't you read the newsletters? Don't you visit the website? Have you not noticed the social media icons on these forum pages?

Megalodon2.0
10-01-2014, 04:21 PM
That's your right and I respect your entitlement to make that decision. I think it's fair that the same respect should be granted to NT and LW3DG for their decisions.
What? Obviously you don't own a business or know how to run one. You don't IGNORE one method of customer communication for another. You don't IGNORE the forum where MOST of your members have always gleaned information and will continue to do so.


A classic case of selective hearing (or reading in this case). I have not stated that anyone needs to switch their preferred communication method to discuss their special categories. I said I felt that NT/LW3DG may now see 'the forums being for the users' and I don't think that's an unfair assessment to make. So no one is asking you to change that. Use the forums in the way you currently do, just don't expect NT/LW3DG to do the same. Their business model may have out grown it.
Out grown it? Newtek marketing has ALWAYS been subpar. Again, you do NOT ignore the method of communication that MOST of your userbase has become accustomed to because you want to try another. You do BOTH.


Very.
Not freom where I (and many others) are sitting.


What's more important to you? The actual information or where it's located?
Why are you being intentionally obtuse? If people here don't KNOW that the information is elsewhere, what good will it do them? If they choose NOT to go the social media route, then they should not have to when information has ALWAYS come to the forum as well. No information for MONTHS ONE END is bad for both the customer AND the business. If you were actually IN business, you would know AND understand this.


The last newsletter I got was on the 3rd September 2014. That was the August/September newsletter.


Newsletter: 3rd Sept 2014
Social: 1 Oct 2014
I have it. ZERO information about anything new in LW. Nada.

Point 1.
No one is saying you HAVE to subscribe to social media for anything, but IF you WANT the information you crave for, then that's where you'll find it.
BS. See my first point above.

Point 2.
If they don't want to keep updating the forums every hour with new information that cater to a closed group of people who are already customers but would rather use tools that are better suited to expose their products to a wider audience, some of whom who may never have heard of LW, then I for one see that as a very smart, productive and efficient use of personnel and information dissemination. Better exposure equals better business opportunities.
Now let's talk about extreme exaggeration - "updating the forums every hour with new information." ROTFLMFAO. You know damn well that that's not what people here are asking for.


Well if seeing things your way equates to having your eyes open, then I'm glad my eyes are closed because shouting at windmills ain't my thing.
No, instead you'd rather be the fanboy that NT craves. There are plenty of people here IN THIS THREAD that have stated the same thing - Newtek does not communicate with their customers.

SO tell us - since you're on social media along with LW3DG - what new of LW is there? What is the LW3DG working on with LW? Will there be a 11.7? Or will there be 12 next?

prometheus
10-01-2014, 04:33 PM
That's your right and I respect your entitlement to make that decision. I think it's fair that the same respect should be granted to NT and LW3DG for their decisions.



A classic case of selective hearing (or reading in this case). I have not stated that anyone needs to switch their preferred communication method to discuss their special categories. I said I felt that NT/LW3DG may now see 'the forums being for the users' and I don't think that's an unfair assessment to make. So no one is asking you to change that. Use the forums in the way you currently do, just don't expect NT/LW3DG to do the same. Their business model may have out grown it.






whoha..stop now, we have no clue to if that is their decision, such calls I would say needs a statement to verify that very action, ..if and when they do, I will not respect that choice, but I would respect their right to do so of course.

Selective hearing?
you are putting to much speculations in why there is so much silence and if it is in fact true based on what you feel, you might be wrong and you might be right, but I reckon you are basing this on what you feel..and not on some hidden information you especially have been told and we others not?
I havenīt said anything about you stated " I have not stated that anyone needs to switch their preferred communication method to discuss their special categories" this I donīt get what you talk about....


Im sorry but I think it is my right to have my own opinion about If I think it is a bad idea to switch communication forum, but itīs all speculations and I think you are giving it to much weight without us really knowing if that is the case.
I do not expect them to go by "my rules" I expect them however to at least listen to customers in the community..which by all means are not the same.
communication should in my opinion go two way..or?

prometheus
10-01-2014, 04:38 PM
You seriously didn't know that they use social media? Don't you read the newsletters? Don't you visit the website? Have you not noticed the social media icons on these forum pages?

comon...do you seriously think I didnīt know, please stop provoking, read the fun between the lines.
:)

do you have a link to any of those social media sites, where they say..we only do our communication on these pages now? I prefer to stay out of twitter..it gives me nothing ..same with facebook, I donīt want to be
glued to a vast amount of social media the rest of my life, itīs enough with these forums and the work we do in lightwave etc.
if they decide to close these forums down, since it is ineffective and serves no good purpose, I might reconsider..but ..but.

Matt
10-01-2014, 04:42 PM
I could reply, but I would rather get back to work writing specifications and proposals for the developers, which are based on feedback from users on what they would like to see improved, because, yes, we do that. :)

Being quiet just means we're very busy working on LightWave, making it better for you. When we're ready to disclose information, you'll be the first to know. If that time is not now, there is no need for conjecture, it only serves to fuel speculation and misinformation.

To answer the original poster.

LightWave has its own dedicated website, this site is for the video side of the company, so it only makes sense for the forums to list those products first. It in no way means anything untoward. Most people check the forums using a bookmarked "New Posts" link anyway, so I really don't see the need to panic over such a small thing.

At some point in the future we would very much like to implement our own dedicated forum on the LightWave site, so that everything is in one place. We're just busy at the moment and we have a working forum right now (this one).

While we're working on LightWave, I suggest you check out the LightWave News (https://www.lightwave3d.com/news/), Newsletters (https://www.lightwave3d.com/newsletters/), LightWave Magazine (https://www.lightwave3d.com/community/lightwave_magazine/) and Training (https://www.lightwave3d.com/learn/) sections on our website, all of which are updated regularly.

And with that, I'm heading back to work, as the more of that I do, the better for LightWave!

Peace,
Matt

prometheus
10-01-2014, 04:49 PM
I could reply, but I would rather get back to work writing specifications and proposals for the developers, which are based on feedback from users on what they would like to see improved, because, yes, we do that. :)

Being quiet just means we're very busy working on LightWave, making it better for you. When we're ready to disclose information, you'll be the first to know. If that time is not now, there is no need for conjecture, it only serves to fuel speculation and misinformation.

To answer the original poster.

LightWave has its own dedicated website, this site is for the video side of the company, so it only makes sense for the forums to list those products first. It in no way means anything untoward. Most people check the forums using a bookmarked "New Posts" link anyway, so I really don't see the need to panic over such a small thing.

At some point in the future we would very much like to implement our own dedicated forum on the LightWave site, so that everything is in one place. We're just busy at the moment and we have a working forum right now (this one).

While we're working on LightWave, I suggest you check out the LightWave News (https://www.lightwave3d.com/news/), Newsletters (https://www.lightwave3d.com/newsletters/), LightWave Magazine (https://www.lightwave3d.com/community/lightwave_magazine/) and Training (https://www.lightwave3d.com/learn/) sections on our website, all of which are updated regularly.

And with that, I'm heading back to work, as the more of that I do, the better for LightWave!

Peace,
Matt

That is splendid Matt, and yes ..I follow news,newsletters and the lightwave magazine and training sessions, and by you simply jumping in and mentioning this, you are simply confirming what I Thought is going on, and we could almost call it a day, until you guys spit out the next monthly letter..

Being quiet just means we're very busy working on LightWave, making it better for you. When we're ready to disclose information, you'll be the first to know. If that time is not now, there is no need for conjecture, it only serves to fuel speculation and misinformation.
We're just busy at the moment and we have a working forum right now (this one).

While we're working on LightWave I suggest you check out the LightWave news

case closed or you might bet the speculation will go on?

Dexter2999
10-01-2014, 05:12 PM
Thank you, Matt.


This isn't directed to Matt (but he is welcome to read it as well.)

My point, which apparently isn't the same as everyone else necessarily, is that posting isn't about sharing new developments/goals, it is about communication. A lack of communication makes people feel ignored (be it an internet forum or personal relationship.) People who feel ignored may move on to find relationships that make them feel better about the interaction.

What does this have to do with a piece of software? Nothing. But it has everything with having to do with fostering a sense of community and building brand loyalty.

All communication doesn't have to be about promotion or sales (Though they seem to like to talk the most...it tends to be a bit "one note".) nor does it have to be leaking secrets or promises of treasures untold sure to be layed at our feet with the next release that will be delivered on our birthday with a free cake.

But people do want to feel like the company they feel loyalty towards listens to them, recognizes them, and values them. A stale forum/community will turn out like any other stale relationship and people will move on to have that personal need met. In the terms of the forum, that translates to an erosion of the community. And without the community, I think LW loses a major bargaining point.


I think droning on at this point is futile. People will either get it, or they won't.

prometheus
10-01-2014, 05:17 PM
+1 Dexter2999

Megalodon2.0
10-01-2014, 05:26 PM
Another +1 Dexter2999

Yup, it's not that difficult to comprehend.

Matt
10-01-2014, 05:29 PM
Thank you, Matt.

This isn't directed to Matt (but he is welcome to read it as well.)

My point, which apparently isn't the same as everyone else necessarily, is that posting isn't about sharing new developments/goals, it is about communication. A lack of communication makes people feel ignored (be it an internet forum or personal relationship.) People who feel ignored may move on to find relationships that make them feel better about the interaction.

What does this have to do with a piece of software? Nothing. But it has everything with having to do with fostering a sense of community and building brand loyalty.

All communication doesn't have to be about promotion or sales (Though they seem to like to talk the most...it tends to be a bit "one note".) nor does it have to be leaking secrets or promises of treasures untold sure to be layed at our feet with the next release that will be delivered on our birthday with a free cake.

But people do want to feel like the company they feel loyalty towards listens to them, recognizes them, and values them. A stale forum/community will turn out like any other stale relationship and people will move on to have that personal need met. In the terms of the forum, that translates to an erosion of the community. And without the community, I think LW loses a major bargaining point.

I think droning on at this point is futile. People will either get it, or they won't.


Totally agree, disclosing sensitive road maps aside (something we - nor our competitors do - excluding Blender, they're a special case) I would like to know what kind of information / interaction you feel would help in this regard? Not that I don't have my own thoughts on the matter, I'm just curious to hear yours.

Matt
10-01-2014, 05:30 PM
Another +1 Dexter2999

Yup, it's not that difficult to comprehend.

No, it isn't.

Shabazzy
10-01-2014, 05:32 PM
whoha..stop now, we have no clue to if that is their decision, such calls I would say needs a statement to verify that very action, ..if and when they do, I will not respect that choice, but I would respect their right to do so of course.

Selective hearing?
you are putting to much speculations in why there is so much silence and if it is in fact true based on what you feel, you might be wrong and you might be right, but I reckon you are basing this on what you feel..and not on some hidden information you especially have been told and we others not?

This is the reason why I used the words "I felt" and "may", I am indeed speculating. I am indeed assuming. My assessments are indeed based my feelings and observations. And no, I don't have any inside information regarding their "apparent" silence on the forums. And no, I am not qualified to give any official statement on NT's business practices or intents, and I don't believe I have said otherwise.


I havenīt said anything about you stated " I have not stated that anyone needs to switch their preferred communication method to discuss their special categories" this I donīt get what you talk about....

You stated that you wouldn't use social media until you are "Back in diaper" (sic). Then you went on to more or less say that you felt that the forums was a better place to discuss your special categories and the use of social media as a communication tool would not be suitable for the way you discussed things on the forum and implied that my comments on social media as a communications tool is a "bad excuse" for trying to force you to switch from using the forums to using social media.

I think there may have been some crossed wires here and maybe we both misunderstood what each other meant.


I do not expect them to go by "my rules" I expect them however to at least listen to customers in the community..which by all means are not the same.
communication should in my opinion go two way..or?

I think it's fair for you to expect that from any business, but I think it's equally fair to accept that all businesses have a better insight on what's going on behind their closed walls than we as customers do. And it's fair to assume they are making decisions that are best for their bottom line and therefore their continued existence.

Sometimes they'll get it wrong and sometimes they'll get it right, but it's going to take some time for them to get enough information to find out what's working and what's not but in the meantime there will be some pain to bear from all parties. If that means they have to devote resources from one comms channel to another comms channel, then that's just part of the pain to bear until the result come in. Maybe in the future they'll start updating the forums with more regularity, maybe not, but I just think it's unfair for people to use a blanket statement and say that NT/LW3DG are just not communicating with their customers, when that just simply is not true.

At the moment they are, it's just not communed the way you want.

jeric_synergy
10-01-2014, 05:46 PM
Well, I'm subscribed to various LW FB pages, including the official one.

If LW3dG is going to deprecate (in the software sense)(it's not 'depreciate', right?) the forum as an information channel, that's fine, but I don't think they ever came out and said that in so many words.

prometheus
10-01-2014, 05:49 PM
Shabazzy...

The idea of "social media as a communications tool is a bad excuse"" if they indeed were following that path....not exactly your comment, I think that is what I tried to say.

prometheus
10-01-2014, 05:54 PM
All that hype with mobile announcements of new google + comments or facebook notes etc..huh, it would be so much nicer if one could look people in the eyes on the bus, but o no..we have entered mobile zombie land where everyone is occupied checking the latest news,comments ..and donīt give a squat about if they are standing in your way at the shop ..or bumping in to you without seeing you, but ...thatīs a completly different story. :)

That diaper thing is just silly talk, to ease up on things here...unfortunatly it might be the bitter trough that I have to work with social media, or use it in my daily life, I donīt necessarly like it and have my mind set
to not engage with it too much if possible.

Watching televison
following twitter, facebook and what have ya,
following the forums
doing work in front o the computer and with lightwave
doing dishes, washing
whatīs left to do?

I donīt follow television anymore...hardly at least, that might be a good thing since I just canīt sit in front of computers so often and at the same time sit in front of TV shows etc, that would
leave no room for outdoor activities.

Uhh...It just striked me, I could follow the forums on the mobile,when exercising...but I think I would bump in to someone or get hit by a car somehwere while doing so.

Cageman
10-01-2014, 06:07 PM
Totally agree, disclosing sensitive road maps aside (something we - nor our competitors do - excluding Blender, they're a special case)

You tried, but that was before you were part of LW3DG. ;) You learned the lesson (not just you Matt, but NT/LW3DG etc).

And as have been stated before. There are many ways to communicate with the userbase... and... non-information is a good one. The fact that you came her, Matt, and stated that you guys are busy with developing cool stuff for us users, is cool. How cheep it might sound... but you are communicating the obvious thing that _should not have to be communicated_ but for some reason, we humans need to hear a word. We need to get encouraged. We need to be _communicated with_ and... _that very thing_ is what you are doing right now. No promises, no news, other than that you are busy making LW better.

Is this the type of communication that the LW-users need more than promises and hype?

I would say... YES!

So... please.. make a habit of doing this. Make a habit of saying something, rather than nothing, and... never, ever promise anything.

Keep the forum alive by your presence! I think that is what LW-community lacks the most from your devs.

Cheers for stepping in and show that presence, Matt!

prometheus
10-01-2014, 06:10 PM
+1 cageman

oh dear..now we can keep this thread alive by agreeing.

jeric_synergy
10-01-2014, 06:13 PM
I'd just like to hear that somebody was hearing/reading what we think about the documentation, including the LHF of correcting ELECTRONIC documentation, and distributing it.

A weekly "Errata & Omissions" post would be easy.

Megalodon2.0
10-01-2014, 06:47 PM
I'd just like to hear that somebody was hearing/reading what we think about the documentation, including the LHF of correcting ELECTRONIC documentation, and distributing it.

A weekly "Errata & Omissions" post would be easy.

And THAT is the point - it IS easy.

No communication sends a message that "we're too busy to even acknowledge that you want to know something... anything."

djlithium
10-01-2014, 07:06 PM
That's no fun. The learning curve for LW isn't that steep so maybe you could bring someone in who wants to learn.

Or find someone who wants to move. I reached out to the DAVE school and they pointed me to someone who was moving. Granted it was Los Angeles and most people wanna move there anyway.

You are looking in the wrong place. If you want artists I have lists of people who need work and are willing to relocate.

Phil
10-01-2014, 07:36 PM
Totally agree, disclosing sensitive road maps aside (something we - nor our competitors do - excluding Blender, they're a special case) I would like to know what kind of information / interaction you feel would help in this regard? Not that I don't have my own thoughts on the matter, I'm just curious to hear yours.

Not LW specifically, but I'd really, really like to see some life on the NevronMotion and Chronosculpt front. It's been very quiet there for some time now and I can't shake the impression of another Rendition/SpeedEdit/Inspire silent death. Even the award that was won didn't stir any reaction.

jeric_synergy
10-01-2014, 09:14 PM
Big companies have "software evangelists". --Just sayin'.

Personally, I think LW3dG should consider having the LightWIKI guy on retainer.

spherical
10-01-2014, 09:35 PM
That this is primarily directed at myself, even though others have voiced the same previously in other threads (I just happened to have noticed this new shift first, apparently have lead with my face and am the new target), I feel the need to respond. Note that this is NOT to fuel any animosity of any sort (although it may seem so as you go along); it is to elucidate the position and to foster clear communication. Sometimes, one just has to stand up.

Do know that I sincerely appreciate your speaking up and hope that this response doesn't have the opposite effect; that of:
"Well, not going to do that again".

(Disclaimer: As a preface, I am fully aware that reading the written word, as opposed to in-person spoken word, leaves a lot to be desired. I've read and re-read this response so many times, as it makes me uncomfortable to be in the position post it, and I still feel it needs to be said; because we (especially me) are being "schooled". The tone just gets me every time. I hope that it is taken in the correct light—that of making things better—for all of us.

I've not seen this side previous, so hope that it's just been a bad day. I'll respond to a different post on the possible positive things to include in LW3DG's communications effort later... because I really want this to work and I am not alone in being just a bit alarmed. Whether anyone at LW3DG thinks that alarm warranted or not, this is a cry for help. Please read it (http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?143629-LightWave-Now-Bumped-Farther-Down-In-The-Pecking-Order&p=1402195&viewfull=1#post1402195) before reacting.)


I could reply, but I would rather get back to work writing specifications and proposals for the developers, which are based on feedback from users on what they would like to see improved, because, yes, we do that. :)

Being quiet just means we're very busy working on LightWave, making it better for you. When we're ready to disclose information, you'll be the first to know.

That is good to hear, again, and pretty much, we knew that; having been around here for a few versions. When it's time, it's time. We get it. That the door is closed in our faces for justifiable reasons doesn't make it likeable. The pendulum has swung too far in the other direction.

We also have work that we'd rather be doing. Then why am I taking time to post this response? Because I care. Should I stop? Do I matter?


If that time is not now, there is no need for conjecture, it only serves to fuel speculation and misinformation.

However, as you and the team may now have learned, leaving users entirely to their own devices, having no information otherwise to go on for protracted periods, just breeds ill and the speculation and misinformation that you don't want. People, especially those who have invested their hard-earned incomes in your product, want to know—something—anything. Lacking any communication, however thin, they will begin putting 2 and 2 together in an attempt to satisfy that need and fill in the blanks as best they can.

Nature abhors a vacuum.

Yes, there are types out here who thrive on unrest, sensationalism and controversy. They are not the ones I am talking about.

You used to be out here, Matt. You, perhaps better than any on the team, should know this.


To answer the original poster.

LightWave has its own dedicated website, this site is for the video side of the company,

That's news (not the LightWave site—we knew that).


so it only makes sense for the forums to list those products first. It in no way means anything untoward.

Interesting shift. After so many years is what makes it odd. Now that this has been disclosed, we may better understand. Still, we did wonder why, when the LightWave site came up and LW3DG split off, that there was no announcement (that I'm aware of) of what was going on, why and what is planned.

With no communication and LightWave being sequentially shifted lower and lower, even though it commands the majority of the forum and activity in same, what would you expect anyone to think? Yes, I get that LightWave sections being so large diminishes the visibility of the higher ticket products. A simple word stating what the intent is, that the deficiency has been recognized and a solution is in the works would have sufficed. Now it has, for anyone coming along later.


Most people check the forums using a bookmarked "New Posts" link anyway, so I really don't see the need to panic over such a small thing.

"Most people" might... and, then again, they may not. I and others don't. Not everyone has the same workflow. Not everyone uses subscriptions. I tried the New Posts more than once and it wasn't a good fit, by a long shot. Everything's all mixed up and tossed in together, because it is chronological. I don't have TriCaster, 3DPLAY or Talk Show licenses. Those posts don't interest me. May someday, yet, I have to weed out LightWave threads from among them.

I much prefer to enter an organized forum, made so in part by moving inappropriately posted threads to where they SHOULD be, and stay in that topic until all of the unread posts in each are behind me. I remain focused on the topic at hand. The organization of the forums makes sense; not punted back and forth all over them willy-nilly. But, that's me. Perhaps I'm missing something obvious in how to use New Posts but, when I look through that results list, I don't easily recognize that which I may be interested in.


At some point in the future we would very much like to implement our own dedicated forum on the LightWave site, so that everything is in one place. We're just busy at the moment and we have a working forum right now (this one).

We would very much like that ourselves, because it would seem that (this one) has something that needs attention, and we didn't think that anyone noticed.


While we're working on LightWave, I suggest you check out the LightWave News (https://www.lightwave3d.com/news/), Newsletters (https://www.lightwave3d.com/newsletters/), LightWave Magazine (https://www.lightwave3d.com/community/lightwave_magazine/) and Training (https://www.lightwave3d.com/learn/) sections on our website, all of which are updated regularly.

We're well aware of them. Mentioned them a number of times, in fact. Only thing missing is: forums.lightwave3d.com. Question is, why hasn't this just been handled by this time? Drop tables from two copies of the database to remove opposite sections, import them to their respective installs, set redirects in .htaccess, place sticky links in each forum to the new locations for users coming along and refresh. Isn't a week-long endeavour. If it had been prioritized, we wouldn't even be reading this thread, because it wouldn't exist.


And with that, I'm heading back to work, as the more of that I do, the better for LightWave!

And with that, I'm heading back to work, as the more of that I do, the better for my studio and my family. Sorry, but this whole thing just rubs the wrong way and I fervently hope that this was an oversight and not your intention. From reading your points, it would seem that a lot of assumptions are being made—on both sides. I hope that what I have said here clears some of that up, however unpalatable it may have been to learn it.

Again, it is NOT my intention to start a fight, get banned, have this post deleted or anything of the sort. I just feel put on the spot and, recognizing that I started this particular thread on an oft-discussed topic initiated by others all over the forums, it is my responsibility to respond to viewpoints that I feel are misunderstood/misinterpreted.

GandB
10-01-2014, 09:58 PM
Excellent post Spherical. It basically sums up most concerns here. The Community (speaking for those it pertains to) has been taken for granted for too long. Try taking a play from the M#d# folks; they know how to communicate.....even though they're just as small as NT (even before the merger).

ernpchan
10-01-2014, 10:18 PM
At some point in the future we would very much like to implement our own dedicated forum on the LightWave site, so that everything is in one place. We're just busy at the moment and we have a working forum right now (this one).



I would like to know what kind of information / interaction you feel would help in this regard? Not that I don't have my own thoughts on the matter, I'm just curious to hear yours.

But you guys don't even use this platform (I'm exaggerating a little here.) For example, the LightWave announcements section hasn't been updated in a year. You're broadcasting to the forum, the central place fellow users gather, that there's nothing of value to announce. But we know that's not true. I get the emails about the special offers, the newsletter, etc. Why you guys don't use what's already in place is baffling. Work is already being done to put those announcements together so it shouldn't be that much more effort to create a new thread. Look at how many new threads get started by just one user on daily basis (I'm looking at you jeric :D)

It's great that the LW site gets updated but I don't hang out there like I do here. So to not use the forum seems like a wasted resource. You guys send an odd message that the forum is still valuable but don't use it yourself.

spherical
10-01-2014, 10:18 PM
Okay.... here goes with Part II; a hopefully positive counterpart.


I would like to know what kind of information / interaction you feel would help in this regard? Not that I don't have my own thoughts on the matter, I'm just curious to hear yours.

I don't want to bring up a sensitive other product but periodic audio and/or video casts would do wonders. Talk about things that, while aren't specific, indicate in general terms where your attention is focused, or you'd like it to be:


Things that the team may be excited about pursuing; however far-fetched and fanciful. In fact, the farther and more fanciful, the better.
New discoveries that the team has come across in the userbase that we might want to be exposed to. Renders, techniques, tutorials, unexpected approaches to solutions.
Things that LightWave does better than other applications. At a better price point.
Highlight a few of the concepts posted in the ever-growing Basic stuff Lightwave users should know, but are not-so-obvious (http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?139165-Basic-stuff-Lightwave-users-should-know-but-are-not-so-obvious) forum thread.
New plugins the team has learned of.
New partnerships.
New incentives.
User Profiles. I'd like to meet some of the individuals who use LightWave on a regular basis. Put a face to the posts.
Do interviews with some of the prominent teachers who know LightWave backwards and forwards.

Be conversational. Be entertaining. Be open to interaction; up to whatever point you feel comfortable.... it'll be a work-in-progress as you get your feet wet in this new communication realm. And don't just limit it to social media. It needs to be done on YOUR internal forum FIRST.

Anything to let us feel, if not actually know, that LW3DG and NewTek in general, care about the LightWave userbase.


Will it be time consuming? Yes, to a certain extent.
Will it be fun? Eventually—for all involved on both sides of the screen... more us than you at first. ;)
Should a new team member be added? Probably, seeing as how everyone is now hard at work developing the next LightWave.

Those are just off the top of my head. More later. I'm burned out and really need, not just prefer, to get back to work.

spherical
10-01-2014, 10:20 PM
Look at how many new threads get started by just one user on daily basis (I'm looking at you jeric :D)

I nearly passed a whole mouthful of Merlot through my nose just now. 8/

ernpchan
10-01-2014, 10:24 PM
I nearly passed a whole mouthful of Merlot through my nose just now. 8/

See, we can be serious and passionate yet still have a good laugh. :D

jeric_synergy
10-01-2014, 10:26 PM
(I'm looking at you jeric :D)
8~ I'm not sure how to take that. :confused:


+++++++++

Perhaps we need to spread the love around, and drive some traffic over to http://www.liberty3d.com/forums/ .

Unfortunately I'm waiting on my LightWIKI password ( "passwürgatory" ) to see if LWiki has a forum component.

ernpchan
10-01-2014, 10:34 PM
8~ I'm not sure how to take that. :confused:

Lol, in good fun. Gentle teasing.

motivalex
10-02-2014, 04:04 AM
......At some point in the future we would very much like to implement our own dedicated forum on the LightWave site, so that everything is in one place. We're just busy at the moment and we have a working forum right now (this one).

While we're working on LightWave, I suggest you check out the LightWave News (https://www.lightwave3d.com/news/), Newsletters (https://www.lightwave3d.com/newsletters/), LightWave Magazine (https://www.lightwave3d.com/community/lightwave_magazine/) and Training (https://www.lightwave3d.com/learn/) sections on our website, all of which are updated regularly......


I think you guys should get the forums located at the new site before LW12 is released at least. By having them here on the Newtek forum, users are missing the Twitter feed on Lightwave3d.com which does have loads of daily cool links, plus easy access to galleries, video training etc. It's great that finally Lightwave embraces social media. Until that forum transfer is done, it may be useful to cross post some of those links of interest to this forum once a week? The Lightwave 3D groups announcements does currently look dead, as if the software has now died.

The most important thing is to make Lightwave 12 as good as possible having taken onboard the previous questiionaires you did and feedback gathered from forums etc. So you guys can have a lot to shout about and promote. The rumoured Lightwave 11.7 by Christmas would be nice too, though tomorrow would be better :)

lardbros
10-02-2014, 04:09 AM
Totally agree, disclosing sensitive road maps aside (something we - nor our competitors do - excluding Blender, they're a special case) I would like to know what kind of information / interaction you feel would help in this regard? Not that I don't have my own thoughts on the matter, I'm just curious to hear yours.

If I can chime in here...

Just a simple post every now and then saying, "Things are going great... we're all working hard, and that's why we're quiet..."


I think it's the months and months of nothing that starts making people get a little edgy.
Saying that... Twitter and Google+ is updated with LightWave related links quite regularly...

jeric_synergy
10-02-2014, 10:04 AM
Google+?? Ugh. I hope it's just a mirror of the FB stuff, I loathe the idea of being connected even MORE to Google.

lightscape
10-02-2014, 10:21 AM
I could reply, but I would rather get back to work writing specifications and proposals for the developers, which are based on feedback from users on what they would like to see improved, because, yes, we do that. :)


Which users? There's no feedback from the users in the forums that have been given its due time by lightwave devs in the forum except for David Ikeda who communicated directly to lightwave users.



I would like to know what kind of information / interaction you feel would help in this regard?


The surveys that the Foundry are doing is one way of interaction.
It might seem useless but a thread where some issues can be discussed is very welcome.
This includes upcoming features and tools being developed. Since the last survey Newtek did was ages ago there have been some very questionable products and features that have come out which if user feedback was there these wouldn't have been developed and wasted dev time.

Genoma - a poor rigging system in modeller. In MODELLER.
Nevron - a very limited and expensive mocap toy
Chronosculpt - a product that doesn't make sense when other appz have the ability to edit geocache anyway.

AbnRanger
10-02-2014, 02:42 PM
I could reply, but I would rather get back to work writing specifications and proposals for the developers, which are based on feedback from users on what they would like to see improved, because, yes, we do that. :)

Being quiet just means we're very busy working on LightWave, making it better for you. When we're ready to disclose information, you'll be the first to know. If that time is not now, there is no need for conjecture, it only serves to fuel speculation and misinformation.

To answer the original poster.

LightWave has its own dedicated website, this site is for the video side of the company, so it only makes sense for the forums to list those products first. It in no way means anything untoward. Most people check the forums using a bookmarked "New Posts" link anyway, so I really don't see the need to panic over such a small thing.

At some point in the future we would very much like to implement our own dedicated forum on the LightWave site, so that everything is in one place. We're just busy at the moment and we have a working forum right now (this one).

While we're working on LightWave, I suggest you check out the LightWave News (https://www.lightwave3d.com/news/), Newsletters (https://www.lightwave3d.com/newsletters/), LightWave Magazine (https://www.lightwave3d.com/community/lightwave_magazine/) and Training (https://www.lightwave3d.com/learn/) sections on our website, all of which are updated regularly.

And with that, I'm heading back to work, as the more of that I do, the better for LightWave!

Peace,
MattI don't think it would be divulging too much information for Rob to post a message via podcast, video message (similar to how CORE was revealed...but without all the suspense :) ), communicating the general direction LW is headed. Saying something to the effect of:

"I realize everything has been very quiet on our end for some time now, but that simply means we are very hard at work digging into the heart of Lightwave's codebase in order to help modernize it, so it can take us much further into the future. Yes, we are doing our best to try and unify the app in this process, but we cannot provide any sort of roadmap for that, at this point. Just that it's one of our main goals. What we can promise is that when we are ready to release the next version of Ligthwave, we expect you'll be quite pleased. So, keep on creating incredible works of art with Lightwave and we'll report back as soon as we are able to."

Right now, silence is being interpreted as "LW in trouble," whether true or not.

hrgiger
10-02-2014, 02:46 PM
Right now, silence is being interpreted as LW in trouble, whether true or not.

As much as I don't like the gloom and doom stuff, I think this sentiment is fairly spot on. LightWave has a perception problem and I feel like the silence is just contributing to that perception.

ncr100
10-02-2014, 03:13 PM
Nose to the grind stone is my opinion what will help.

Right now I'm afraid the 'perception problem' won't be solved by adding Forum activity to their list of social activities. They appear to know what to fix.

Megalodon2.0
10-02-2014, 05:22 PM
Nose to the grind stone is my opinion what will help.

Right now I'm afraid the 'perception problem' won't be solved by adding Forum activity to their list of social activities. They appear to know what to fix.
No, that's just it, they DON'T know what to fix. Weekly or even monthly communication would alleviate most of the trepidation with most users here expressing concern. LW will ALWAYS have that "perception problem" as HR pointed out, but that is primarily dedicated to those "outside" of LW. As mentioned numerous times here, a simple podcast or even a simple thread where Rob and company can just post a "reminder" that they are indeed working on LW and not simply ignoring the userbase - which IS the message being sent by the silence. As has already been mentioned so many times HERE in this thread, it won't take much - but they don't seem to even WANT to do that - Matt notwithstanding.

Matt
10-02-2014, 05:31 PM
No, that's just it, they DON'T know what to fix.

Sorry, but this is quite simply so far from the truth.


a simple podcast or even a simple thread where Rob and company can just post a "reminder" that they are indeed working on LW and not simply ignoring the userbase

This thread has proven that just saying "we ARE working hard on LightWave" is not enough. It becomes an endless back and forth that becomes very difficult to keep abreast of, as people dissect every nuance of your posts and make it impossible to appease everyone.

Matt
10-02-2014, 05:34 PM
"I realize everything has been very quiet on our end for some time now, but that simply means we are very hard at work digging into the heart of Lightwave's codebase in order to help modernize it, so it can take us much further into the future. Yes, we are doing our best to try and unify the app in this process, but we cannot provide any sort of roadmap for that, at this point. Just that it's one of our main goals. What we can promise is that when we are ready to release the next version of Ligthwave, we expect you'll be quite pleased. So, keep on creating incredible works of art with Lightwave and we'll report back as soon as we are able to."

Right now, silence is being interpreted as LW in trouble, whether true or not.

This statement isn't far off, thing is, even posting something like this causes a ton of questions that unless answered, causes some to become irate as they yearn for more details.

Matt
10-02-2014, 05:42 PM
The fact that you came here, Matt, and stated that you guys are busy with developing cool stuff for us users, is cool. How cheap it might sound... but you are communicating the obvious thing that _should not have to be communicated_ but for some reason, we humans need to hear a word. We need to get encouraged. We need to be _communicated with_ and... _that very thing_ is what you are doing right now. No promises, no news, other than that you are busy making LW better.

Is this the type of communication that the LW-users need more than promises and hype?

I would say... YES!

So... please.. make a habit of doing this. Make a habit of saying something, rather than nothing, and... never, ever promise anything.

Keep the forum alive by your presence! I think that is what LW-community lacks the most from your devs.

Cheers for stepping in and show that presence, Matt!


But there are only so many times you can say the same thing until a time where you are ready to either show some sneak peaks (something I would love to do!) Or say something more specific (or actually release the final product) before it becomes an issue then about "you're just saying the same thing now I we no longer believe you"!

But if at least mentioning that things are going well on occasion is helpful, then I'm sure that could be achieved.

Matt
10-02-2014, 05:45 PM
Just a simple post every now and then saying, "Things are going great... we're all working hard, and that's why we're quiet..."


Things ARE going great, we ARE all working hard, and that IS why we're quiet at the moment!

Actually not making fun here, that is basically where things are at. There is not much else I can say right now, sorry!

Megalodon2.0
10-02-2014, 06:12 PM
Sorry, but this is quite simply so far from the truth.
No Matt, the assessment is spot on. We're not talking about you guys knowing what to fix in LW, we're talking about how you guys fix communication. This thread is a PRIME EXAMPLE.


This thread has proven that just saying "we ARE working hard on LightWave" is not enough. It becomes an endless back and forth that becomes very difficult to keep abreast of, as people dissect every nuance of your posts and make it impossible to appease everyone.
That is disingenuous. If Newtek had one thread at the top of the forums (like in the NewTek LightWave 3D Group Announcements) - even a thread where no one could respond BUT Rob came in and gave updates that were CURRENT - THAT would be helpful. Having you come in here ONCE during a thread after more than 100 posts is not serious communication nor is it from the HEAD of Lightwave. Communicating with its customers has ALWAYS been NT's big problem and the LW3DG is no different. There will ALWAYS be those who are not content with periodic updates, but there are also MANY who would be contented. Deciding to say NOTHING for a LONG period of time simply leads to what has already been discussed - LW's perception, and that is not a good one.

Dexter2999
10-02-2014, 06:12 PM
Thanks again, Matt.

To your point, ( and as others have mentioned in jest) your postings have been met with a response that calls to mind the saying " no good deed goes unpunished".

But in part this is because of a previous perceived lack of communication. I say perceived because on the company side of things social media efforts are in full swing. So this points to a disconnect in my mind. And perhaps a closer examination of what types of media "mean" in terms of actual communication.

Twitter and email notifications that flood the public are the hottest trend. But if a user isn't in the position to follow up on such messages they can become "noise" that gets tuned out.

Man, I hate typing on a phone.

OnlineRender
10-02-2014, 06:39 PM
I have nothing important or productive to say , getting bored of these pedantic threads , what happened to the good old days! I now just go....

http://i.imgur.com/UMJVN5w.gif -----> Show some love or go model something!

lardbros
10-03-2014, 07:09 AM
Things ARE going great, we ARE all working hard, and that IS why we're quiet at the moment!

Actually not making fun here, that is basically where things are at. There is not much else I can say right now, sorry!

I know... and I cope much better with the 'silence' than I do with leaked info, the thought of other software developers stealing ideas for their own... etc etc...
If I look back at how much has changed in the way LightWave and their marketing is handled... what we have now is FAR better than it's ever been.

Kelly does a great job with all the Facebook and other social media stuff... there are ALWAYS offers kicking off, check out the Octane one and the competitors upgrade offer right now... and we get monthly newsletter, an annual magazine... etc etc...

We NEVER used to get any of this, and I do think it'll get even better too... just have to hold tight :D

djwaterman
10-03-2014, 09:03 AM
Just a general note about feel good engagement with the customer, you never, ever hear of any doomsday inside info telling you to bail out now while there's still time in such banter, it will be "all is well" right up to the point when you are hit with news the company has folded, another reason why I wouldn't care for this sort of phony pep talk peppering the forum.

I totally don't see any point popping in now and then to make vague all is well thumbs up statements. It only makes sense to make statements when you have something important to announce and you can answer the questions such an announcement would generate. Good on Matt for weighing in on this thread, but I'd rather he be back working on Lightwave. Every now and then one of the team pops in to comment on someone's work and that is enough for me to know they are out there and aware of what is going on in these forums, I take it they're as aware as any of us about our issues with the product, besides the fact they have engaged specific users to test Lightwave in the field, so we should just be learning more about how to make Lightwave do great things, which is really what this forum is about.

The other thing is, the original question this thread posed has more or less been answered now, the "bumping down" was not symbolic of anything and in the future we might have a proper forum on the main site.

Shabazzy
10-03-2014, 09:19 AM
This thread has proven that just saying "we ARE working hard on LightWave" is not enough. It becomes an endless back and forth that becomes very difficult to keep abreast of, as people dissect every nuance of your posts and make it impossible to appease everyone.


But there are only so many times you can say the same thing until a time where you are ready to either show some sneak peaks (something I would love to do!) Or say something more specific (or actually release the final product) before it becomes an issue then about "you're just saying the same thing now I we no longer believe you"!

But if at least mentioning that things are going well on occasion is helpful, then I'm sure that could be achieved.
At the risk of being accused of being a 'NewTek Fanboy' again, I have said before that I'm very indebted to NT for the things they have created over the many, many years and the opportunities that has afforded me. And I can say that I have the utmost admiration for their ability to remain focused on their objectives and not be drawn into disputes with those who just want to scream at windmills because as this thread shows, with some individuals, no matter what you do there will always be something to complain about.

There's a saying that goes, 'Empty vessels make the most noise' and boy are there people here that bear that out. No matter what you provide, it ain't ever enough. It's always 'It ain't where I want it', 'It ain't how I want it', 'It ain't like I like it', 'It's not giving me the info I want'. The take away? It's all about me, me, me. Not a shred of gratitude for what they have or what they are given and provided with. Unbelievable.

Given that there are these 'obtuse' loudmouthed selfish types of people frequenting these forums, I'm not surprised you LW3DG guys don't engage here more often. Who in their right mind would?


I know... and I cope much better with the 'silence' than I do with leaked info, the thought of other software developers stealing ideas for their own... etc etc...
If I look back at how much has changed in the way LightWave and their marketing is handled... what we have now is FAR better than it's ever been.

Kelly does a great job with all the Facebook and other social media stuff... there are ALWAYS offers kicking off, check out the Octane one and the competitors upgrade offer right now... and we get monthly newsletter, an annual magazine... etc etc...

We NEVER used to get any of this, and I do think it'll get even better too... just have to hold tight :D

Thankfully though, there are two sides to every coin and it's people like Lardbros that me proud to be part of these forums and give me faith in the LW community.

Thanks Lardbros for shining that light of hope.

Shabazzy
10-03-2014, 09:26 AM
Just a general note about feel good engagement with the customer, you never, ever hear of any doomsday inside info telling you to bail out now while there's still time in such banter, it will be "all is well" right up to the point when you are hit with news the company has folded, another reason why I wouldn't care for this sort of phony pep talk peppering the forum.

I totally don't see any point popping in now and then to make vague all is well thumbs up statements. It only makes sense to make statements when you have something important to announce and you can answer the questions such an announcement would generate. Good on Matt for weighing in on this thread, but I'd rather he be back working on Lightwave. Every now and then one of the team pops in to comment on someone's work and that is enough for me to know they are out there and aware of what is going on in these forums, I take it they're as aware as any of us about our issues with the product, besides the fact they have engaged specific users to test Lightwave in the field, so we should just be learning more about how to make Lightwave do great things, which is really what this forum is about.

The other thing is, the original question this thread posed has more or less been answered now, the "bumping down" was not symbolic of anything and in the future we might have a proper forum on the main site.

Another good example of a LW member displaying rational sense and reason.

Surrealist.
10-03-2014, 09:37 AM
@Matt,

thanks for piping in.

It does make a difference. At least I appreciate it. Good to hear you guys are still working away - which I new anyway- but it does help. It is nice and appreciated and it does make a good effect I think in general on most people. And this reflects much better back onto LW 3D Group and LightWave

I can speak for myself, I am very curious as to what you guys are working on and I am sure what ever it is will be a vast improvement.

Keep up the good work, but also, don't be a stranger either. :hey:

Really truly, most people appreciate this I think and it is worth putting up the heckling and trolling both of which are inevitable.

jeric_synergy
10-03-2014, 09:42 AM
I wouldn't mind LW3dG coming and in and asking about EXISTING tools, and how they could be spiffed up.

This would avoid the whole 'new technology' issue (which I think may be overblown, but whatevz).

LW12 will surely have many of the old tools, and we all gotz opinions on them. For instance, I'd suggest that FALLOFF OPTIONS be freed from the dungeon of a dropdown menu (slow slow slow :devil: :devil: :devil: , and hidden to boot). Make 'em buttons. I predict a huge jump in Falloff use if this were followed.

ncr100
10-03-2014, 12:39 PM
No Matt, ... That is disingenuous.

Whoa. That escalated quickly.

Looking fwd to the team's future work. <3

Megalodon2.0
10-03-2014, 01:27 PM
Whoa. That escalated quickly.

Looking fwd to the team's future work. <3

Not at all. When was the last time NT - OFFICIALLY - said anything? Why do you think so many people here - people who have been here a LONG TIME - keep bringing up the NT lack of communication? Popping in on a forum after more than 100 posts is not my idea of serious communication. We don't expect engaging the customer with detailed info on what each NT developer is doing OR any new features, etc. But... does it really need to be secret about LW11.7 or LW12? How many times have people here asked are we getting LW11.7 or will they now go to 12? Is THAT giving too much away? Hell, they don't even have to tell us WHEN LW12 is coming - just that THAT is what they are working on.

Or how about being a little like Lux and TALK to your customer every now and then? And let's not say "it takes time away from improving LW" because THAT is disingenuous as well. A developer doesn't HAVE to be the one to talk to customers. Though I do recall how much everyone said that David Ikeda's posts were VERY helpful AND reassuring to nearly everyone. Does it REALLY take that much to talk with us every month or so? And no, they do NOT have to divulge anything of serious consequence. This IS about perception - and regardless of those who say it's okay, apparently there are a great many people who disagree.

RebelHill
10-03-2014, 01:36 PM
Hell, they don't even have to tell us WHEN LW12 is coming - just that THAT is what they are working on.

Surely stuff like that is a given though... Unless they've stopped developing LW altogether, and 11x is the last of it, then it must follow that 12 (or preliminary efforts towards) is being worked on.

ernpchan
10-03-2014, 01:44 PM
Surely stuff like that is a given though... Unless they've stopped developing LW altogether, and 11x is the last of it, then it must follow that 12 (or preliminary efforts towards) is being worked on.

After 12 is released I'd want confirmation that they're working on 13 or skipping to 14. Buildings don't have a 13th floor for superstitions reasons.

Megalodon2.0
10-03-2014, 01:54 PM
Surely stuff like that is a given though... Unless they've stopped developing LW altogether, and 11x is the last of it, then it must follow that 12 (or preliminary efforts towards) is being worked on.

I was referring to whether they are working on 11.7 OR 12. Will there BE an 11.7 or are they now going to 12?

Would it be that difficult to have this answered? Would it be divulging some super secret initiative?

meatycheesyboy
10-03-2014, 01:56 PM
After 12 is released I'd want confirmation that they're working on 13 or skipping to 14. Buildings don't have a 13th floor for superstitions reasons.

You never know, Microsoft is apparently skipping Windows 9 in favor of going straight to 10.

http://gizmodo.com/windows-10-may-have-gotten-its-name-because-of-lazy-cod-1641383218

ernpchan
10-03-2014, 01:59 PM
You never know, Microsoft is apparently skipping Windows 9 in favor of going straight to 10.

http://gizmodo.com/windows-10-may-have-gotten-its-name-because-of-lazy-cod-1641383218

Yeah because 7 8 9.

Thank you thank you, I'll be here all night and don't forget to tip your waitresses.

RebelHill
10-03-2014, 03:12 PM
Would it be divulging some super secret initiative?

Might be.

If the next release due were to be 12, but a ways off yet, then to reveal that fact would only devalue 11 in the meantime... folk might sit and say "I'll wait and see"... that's pretty standard practice, not just for NT.

Megalodon2.0
10-03-2014, 03:39 PM
Might be.

If the next release due were to be 12, but a ways off yet, then to reveal that fact would only devalue 11 in the meantime... folk might sit and say "I'll wait and see"... that's pretty standard practice, not just for NT.

I don't buy that explanation AT ALL. No one is going to buy LW11.x because they believe that 11.7 is coming around the corner - or not. The buying decision is not based on "will there be an 11.7 or not." That WOULD be silly. Standard practice? I don't think so.

spherical
10-03-2014, 05:18 PM
The other thing is, the original question this thread posed has more or less been answered now, the "bumping down" was not symbolic of anything and in the future we might have a proper forum on the main site.

Yep. This question has finally been addressed. Note that this thread was not the first on the topic, I just happened to see the continued progression and wondered out loud. (Not going to do THAT again.) Had it not been started, would we have learned of the decision that evidently was made months ago? If a simple "weigh-in" outlining what was to happen had been forthcoming, like I said, this thread along with all of the others wouldn't exist.

To Shabazzy: have you read my Part II (http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?143629-LightWave-Now-Bumped-Farther-Down-In-The-Pecking-Order&p=1402481#post1402481)? Evidently not. Your take on things, that it's all about me, me, me, is so far off that it's ridiculously funny, but I'm not laughing.

Get a clue. It isn't about us, so much as it is about the software that we have come to depend upon. How many times have we all read that users have to defend their use of LightWave; even to the point of confirming that it is still in existence? Why does this happen so frequently? Maybe it doesn't, except to the same persons. I don't know and don't have the time to research the metrics. Still, LightWave has a PR problem; plain and simple. WE would like to offer suggestions on how to improve upon it. Part II (http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?143629-LightWave-Now-Bumped-Farther-Down-In-The-Pecking-Order&p=1402481#post1402481) and other posts similar peppered throughout the forums, are exactly that. Does this help me? Yes. Is it about me? No. Cheap shot. Get it straight. If all some people can do is dig their heels in and call others names, just so they can be "right", we'll never get anywhere positive.

No one is asking for divulgence of sensitive/proprietary/road-map information. The request is for there to be a simple dialogue that repositions LW3DG as a cordial and helpful company that wants the best for their customers. I don't particularly care anymore if it's vacuous, patronizing fluff; anything except repeating that "we're busy". Implementing some, or any, of the items outlined in Part II (http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?143629-LightWave-Now-Bumped-Farther-Down-In-The-Pecking-Order&p=1402481#post1402481) will go a long way in this regard. It isn't rocket surgery to recognize that being likeable, affable and supportive is far better than turning a figurative cold shoulder. Last I looked, this isn't Autodesk or Adobe, but even they are more communicative.

The dedicated lightwave3d web presence and the sections that exist there are a great step in the correct direction. It looks great.
Emerging into social media is a good step. Public outreach is always necessary.
Now, it's time to care for the people who already are customers. We are all some of the best resources available.

The director of the Strasenburgh Planetarium where I worked, had a saying that applied in many areas when we were considering how and where to make improvements:

"It is easier to raise the hills than it is to raise the valleys." Foster that which is already in motion, don't try to unstick that which isn't.

Take away? Well, the real take away is that LightWave is my 3D application of choice. I want it to continue and thrive. I'd prefer that it not be Borged. I'd prefer that it not be relegated to the fate of Softimage. The 3D marketplace is a rough world these days. Apparently gentle nudges aren't working. If it takes a bit of comeuppance to get something noticed and addressed, so be it. Better that than the alternative.

In a different light, one could say that we are also "fanboys", but in a different manner; an active manner—that of recognizing that there is Room For Improvement and we're willing to do something about it—even if it means suffering slings and arrows.

jeric_synergy
10-03-2014, 05:40 PM
"It is easier to raise the hills than it is to raise the valleys."
Buddha, I hope not, since to me the documentation is the nadir of the Lightwave experience.

I'm not sure the saying is pertinent: the 'valleys' are to me the Low Hanging Fruit: address the documentation (the cheapest part of development) and it appears that Lightwave gains new functions! It's like magic. 8~

Megalodon2.0
10-03-2014, 06:44 PM
No one is asking for divulgence of sensitive/proprietary/road-map information. The request is for there to be a simple dialogue that repositions LW3DG as a cordial and helpful company that wants the best for their customers. I don't particularly care anymore if it's vacuous, patronizing fluff; anything except repeating that "we're busy". Implementing some, or any, of the items outlined in Part II (http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?143629-LightWave-Now-Bumped-Farther-Down-In-The-Pecking-Order&p=1402481#post1402481) will go a long way in this regard. It isn't rocket surgery to recognize that being likeable, affable and supportive is far better than turning a figurative cold shoulder. Last I looked, this isn't Autodesk or Adobe, but even they are more communicative.

Case and point - WELL MADE.

Now if the LW3DG would only comprehend AND make the changes to how they communicate with their customers...


"It is easier to raise the hills than it is to raise the valleys."
Buddha, I hope not, since to me the documentation is the nadir of the Lightwave experience.

I'm not sure the saying is pertinent: the 'valleys' are to me the Low Hanging Fruit: address the documentation (the cheapest part of development) and it appears that Lightwave gains new functions! It's like magic. 8~

You're misunderstanding the context of the quote. The "hills" are the current customers - you can make them happier MORE easily than those who are not customers - the "valleys." As he said "Foster that which is already in motion, don't try to unstick that which isn't" - WE are the ones in motion - the current customers.

spherical
10-03-2014, 07:59 PM
I'm not sure the saying is pertinent: the 'valleys' are to me the Low Hanging Fruit: address the documentation (the cheapest part of development) and it appears that Lightwave gains new functions!

I'm talking about users; not the darn documentation. Keep the ones you have, help them to be excited about the product, word of mouth speaks louder than empty commercials.
Try to go for those who aren't interested and pull them in, and you have a much lower rate of return on investment.

This has been about PR and Social Media and who is and who isn't regarded. We're right here. We're the "hill" that funds the operation. But those who aren't get more attention paid to them.

jeric_synergy
10-04-2014, 12:49 AM
Ahhhh. :lightbulb: Yes: the effort to get new participants, be they users or clients, is much more laborious than tending to the ones already in the process.

Dexter2999
10-04-2014, 12:54 AM
Case and point - WELL MADE.

Now if the LW3DG would only comprehend AND make the changes to how they communicate with their customers...

The way I see it the problem is that they already have changed how they communicate.

The content of their communications are careful to omit anything that comes close to making promises as to what may come next. (No doubt determined by customer outcries of promises not delivered upon.)

Also, the means of communication seems to have shifted from the forums to wider spread means of social networking sites.

The problem boils down to people here aren't hearing what they want to hear and they aren't finding communications where they like to look for them.

You think they haven't made any communications? Look here.
https://twitter.com/lightwave3d

Seems pretty active to me.

Or here...
https://www.facebook.com/LightWave3D

also active.

So, I find the complaints somewhat baseless or at least overstated.

Similarly,I i would think overlooking their own forums with this type of activity is something of an oversight that they might want to amend.

hrgiger
10-04-2014, 02:39 AM
The way I see it the problem is that they already have changed how they communicate.



Linking to people's work, promoting the product and linking to LW related matter isn't really communication. Its promotion. So I don't think the complaints people have about lack of communication are overstated.

spherical
10-04-2014, 03:41 AM
Linking to people's work, promoting the product and linking to LW related matter isn't really communication. Its promotion. So I don't think the complaints people have about lack of communication are overstated.

Well stated. That which we are asking isn't far off from these but still are different from them.

GandB
10-04-2014, 09:11 AM
No Dexter; our comments aren't baseless or overstated. You don't seem to understand what we are getting at, or you are purposely being dismissive (as are others here). This whole thing is like a sad combination of The Emporer's New Clothes and Titanic, to me. Lightwave isn't a houehold name in the industry, and LW3DG is doing little to nothing to help fix that. Their marketing is poor at best; everyone, but a few, seem to realize that. In the end you can't force people to help themselves. I'm sure that many at SIGGRAPH this year, thought that that LW folded and had no idea about their "virtual booth".

Dexter2999
10-04-2014, 12:30 PM
Linking to people's work, promoting the product and linking to LW related matter isn't really communication. Its promotion. So I don't think the complaints people have about lack of communication are overstated.

I beg to differ as perhaps the company does. There are a great many people who view tweets and Facebook as a legitimate means of communication.

com·mu·ni·ca·tion
kəˌmyo͞onəˈkāSH(ə)n/
noun
1.
the imparting or exchanging of information or news.

synonyms: transmission, conveyance, divulgence, disclosure;


According to your post you know communication when you see it.
"That's not communication."
"That's not communication."
"That's not communication."

When if fact they are transmissions of information of news.

What they are NOT:
They are not a dialog.
They are not a divulgence of topics the company has deemed confidential information such as product details or release dates.

And I am not saying that dialog isn't important, it absolutely is. But this thread is full of vagaries and contradictions about what "we" want.
Someone from the company nicely steps in to fulfill what someone asked for saying "Hi, we're working really hard." And someone basically calls him a liar, "disingenuous". That type of behavior isn't going to court a dialog. A confrontation perhaps but not discourse that ends in both parties feeling better about the exchange. If anyone is being disingenuous it is us, or at the very least inconsistent. Ask for something, then say, "that's not what I want."

I stand behind all of my previous statements in this thread. "What does a means of communication MEAN?" If people aren't signed up for Facebook they aren't getting the communication. I'm not, nor will I be. If someone doesn't subscribe to their Twitter feed they wont see the posts. Again, I don't subscribe. I have enough to keep track of in my feed already and usually on my phone, I personally don't think my phone is where I want to receive LW related information. But younger people may differ.

I believe Matt asked a straight forward question earlier, what do you think is meaningful communication?
If it isn't "this", "this", or "this", and you know you wont get "that" or "that", what is left?

The only topics left that I can think of to make running threads on bug fixes.

And not appearing at a convention has ZERO to do with communicating to THIS community. Let's keep the argument focused. Especially if Marketing has been ruled out as form of communication. Conventions are just marketing. (And as an aside, if you don't have something sufficiently new/impressive enough it doesn't make all that much fiscal sense to go through the expense of trotting out last year's products. There just isn't the return on investment.)

Shabazzy
10-04-2014, 01:19 PM
I beg to differ as perhaps the company does. There are a great many people who view tweets and Facebook as a legitimate means of communication.

com·mu·ni·ca·tion
kəˌmyo͞onəˈkāSH(ə)n/
noun
1.
the imparting or exchanging of information or news.

synonyms: transmission, conveyance, divulgence, disclosure;


According to your post you know communication when you see it.
"That's not communication."
"That's not communication."
"That's not communication."

When if fact they are transmissions of information of news.

What they are NOT:
They are not a dialog.
They are not a divulgence of topics the company has deemed confidential information such as product details or release dates.

And I am not saying that dialog isn't important, it absolutely is. But this thread is full of vagaries and contradictions about what "we" want.
Someone from the company nicely steps in to fulfill what someone asked for saying "Hi, we're working really hard." And someone basically calls him a liar, "disingenuous". That type of behavior isn't going to court a dialog. A confrontation perhaps but not discourse that ends in both parties feeling better about the exchange. If anyone is being disingenuous it is us, or at the very least inconsistent. Ask for something, then say, "that's not what I want."

The Daddy has spoken!:thumbsup:

prometheus
10-04-2014, 01:50 PM
Ah social media, itīs only in the cradle yet, and the upcoming year or two..we finally will have 20 new more social media, isnīt that great..we can hook up and constantly receive news and comments on those, and how wonderful it will be to have that always reachable ..you simply have to acess and check each comment everytime, itīs great..we all will be more social and effective....Not.

how many social media platforms are lightwave/newtek hooked up to now?
Personally I think my stuff is these forums,linkedin,youtube,vimeo, (google+ forced by picasaweb and youtube unfortunatly)
I do not have any plans to join facebook,instagram,twitter

Hereīs the lightwave social medias...forums are however excluded as a social media place.

https://plus.google.com/105443668744745125881/posts
http://www.pinterest.com/lw3d/
https://twitter.com/lightwave3d
https://www.youtube.com/user/OfficialLightWave3D
https://www.facebook.com/LightWave3D

I am curious to see if my feelings about social media will change in the future, at current state of my mind, I have more contempt for it really, sure a few of them might be worth it..but I think it is in danger to
go of track on to many roads not everyone wantīs to follow, and thus keeping track of the object will undoubtly be to hard and the object will be lost.

Megalodon2.0
10-04-2014, 02:52 PM
So, I find the complaints somewhat baseless or at least overstated.
Nope. Not at all. When you are used to coming to a forum to get your information, you don't need to go elsewhere. As someone here already said, you don't start posting information in another room without telling those in the original room what you are doing.


Similarly,I i would think overlooking their own forums with this type of activity is something of an oversight that they might want to amend.
Oversight? Yeah, bigtime. And "might" want to amend? If you can't provide the same information in YOUR OWN FORUM that you state on social media sites, then there IS something wrong with your methods. It's not an oversight, it's simply idiotic.

Megalodon2.0
10-04-2014, 02:57 PM
And I am not saying that dialog isn't important, it absolutely is. But this thread is full of vagaries and contradictions about what "we" want.
Someone from the company nicely steps in to fulfill what someone asked for saying "Hi, we're working really hard." And someone basically calls him a liar, "disingenuous". That type of behavior isn't going to court a dialog. A confrontation perhaps but not discourse that ends in both parties feeling better about the exchange. If anyone is being disingenuous it is us, or at the very least inconsistent. Ask for something, then say, "that's not what I want."

Liar? Way to put words in my mouth. SERIOUS communication with your userbase isn't someone popping in after 100 posts and saying something. Serious communication involves people involved with LW STARTING a thread and letting everyone know what is going on - not specifics - but "hey, we're working hard on LW12 as well as continuing the integration of Modeler and Layout..." Not in the middle of some thread where NO ONE will see it. If you seriously think that THAT is communication, then things will never change around here since THAT is what has been happening for YEARS. THAT... is not communication to the userbase.

Dexter2999
10-04-2014, 05:07 PM
Liar? Way to put words in my mouth.

Sorry but,

dis·in·gen·u·ous
ˌdisənˈjenyo͞oəs/
adjective
not candid or sincere, typically by pretending that one knows less about something than one really does.
synonyms: insincere, dishonest, untruthful, false, deceitful, duplicitous, lying, mendacious; hypocritical

I'm sorry if that was the conclusion I drew but that is what the word is synonymous with. (Although to your credit that is not SPECIFIC definition of the word. And I will also say that if you intended to call him a liar you would have used that specific word.) But you should concede that it isn't a stretch if Matt also drew the same conclusion and offence.

I apologize for inferring that you implied Matt was lying. But more importantly, I would hope that you would be more concerned with Matt having the same idea.

Megalodon2.0
10-04-2014, 06:51 PM
Sorry but,

dis·in·gen·u·ous
ˌdisənˈjenyo͞oəs/
adjective
not candid or sincere, typically by pretending that one knows less about something than one really does.
synonyms: insincere, dishonest, untruthful, false, deceitful, duplicitous, lying, mendacious; hypocritical

I'm sorry if that was the conclusion I drew but that is what the word is synonymous with. (Although to your credit that is not SPECIFIC definition of the word. And I will also say that if you intended to call him a liar you would have used that specific word.) But you should concede that it isn't a stretch if Matt also drew the same conclusion and offence.

I apologize for inferring that you implied Matt was lying. But more importantly, I would hope that you would be more concerned with Matt having the same idea.

Please stop posting definitions of words, you are treating everyone like children and it is not necessary.

I know perfectly well what disingenuous means and it is certainly not liar - and Matt should know this as you and everyone else should. Disingenuous/insincere is NOT liar nor is it implied. As you said about what YOU previously said, I stand by my assertion - true SINCERE communication is not done in the middle of a thread where NO ONE will find it in the future. It is done by STARTING a thread and communicating what you want to say to the users AND done on a consistent basis as many have said here already. Lux is a prime example and while they're not perfect they are leaps and bounds better than NT/LW3DG. AND you do not do it solely on social media where not everyone wants to participate nor has access to NOR has been informed by NT. Since the forum has been the main source of info in the past, the forums should REMAIN a place where this information is disseminated AS WELL AS social media sites.

Surrealist.
10-04-2014, 07:59 PM
Yeah Social Media is not only valid it is pretty much the accepted way to get the word out these days. In fact if you don't have a presence there, and continually update it, most people (usually younger under 35) do not consider you are worth paying attention to. I'd say well done.

This thread is a great example of the place LW 3DG should not be frequenting.

I agree syncing the news section here with social media is a great idea.

Other (two-way) communication that is needed additional to the social and occasional update here, would be time best served in the support sections, interacting with the ranks on various techniques and tools, bugs, workarounds and all of the various issues that come up as well as solutions needed while using LightWave.

This last one has been sporadic at best. And if it was kept alive it would be the most productive use of time for LW 3D group in my opinion as well as quell the notions that things are quiet for some ominous reason.

jeric_synergy
10-04-2014, 08:09 PM
Now that I know that the center of effort has moved away from the forums to Twitter, FB, and the website I'll look there, but more of a hullabaloo, like, say, 175 messages ago, would have been very appropriate. 8~

ncr100
10-04-2014, 10:59 PM
http://www.reactiongifs.us/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/popcorn_stephen_colbert.gif

hrgiger
10-05-2014, 10:28 AM
I see Dexter, you just want to argue semantics about what constitutes 'communication'. When pretty much everyone is aware of what type of communication the users are looking for.

Oedo 808
10-05-2014, 10:53 AM
I see Dexter, you just want to argue semantics about what constitutes 'communication'. When pretty much everyone is aware of what type of communication the users are looking for.

The LightWave Group needs to know that some users would be happy just to have Matt stand atop LightWave HQ, flag clenched betwixt his butt cheeks and trying to waggle out semaphore to The Stars and Stripes Forever. It might give them some inspiration for their next Siggraph.

Dexter2999
10-05-2014, 11:15 AM
I see Dexter, you just want to argue semantics about what constitutes 'communication'. When pretty much everyone is aware of what type of communication the users are looking for.

No, not semantics. SPECIFICS! You say "pretty much everyone is aware" but not to the person who is doing the updates obviously. And this forum is largely filled with users from another generation. What we want may not be so obvious to this person. Tell them EXACTLY what you want and you have a better chance of getting it.

You don't want sales information.
You don't want links to works of people using LW. (Although, I think that is perfectly legitimate.)
You don't want links to stories about LW related subjects. (Again, I think this is relevant and acceptable.)
You know you aren't going to get product details.
You know you won't get a hard deadline.
You don't want a general acknowledgement in the middle of an existing thread.
You don't want to get your info from Facebook or Twitter. (And, I can't blame you.)

So you are after something very specific.
And that specific thing you are after, might not be the specific thing someone else is after.

I still think most of the complaints are rooted in frustration of the information they want but aren't going to get. The rest is just displaced anger.

But if you can narrow down specifically what you want them to give you to make you happy, who knows? They just might deliver.

I don't think any amount of threads saying "Hi, still hard at work. Things are great!" is going to make those users who are currently unhappy any less so. What some have said they want is "acknowledgement" but I think that is in fact a bit disingenuous. They want more but sometimes it is difficult to come to terms with what we perceive to be the less attractive qualities in ourselves like selfishness.

I will tell you exactly what I want and it is COMPLETELY SELFISH!

I want Lightwave3D Group to show aggressive efforts in putting up a new forum over at their website and transfer all LW content over.
I want a top banner bar with a forum gallery built in.
I want sections for ChronoSculpt and Neveron.
I want it to be presented as gift/reward for being a loyal user so existing users get first looks.
I want it to be cool and slick and to make new users not feel like an after thought in the overall company paradigm.

But I will tell you this, I don't think it is a priority with them. Because this forum is home to a relative handful of die hard users and their current efforts on social media outlets are courting an ocean of younger people and potential new users.

I want Lightwave3D Groupt to recognize that social media is mostly just a "blip" on a screen that gets swept away in the stream of social media. Just one more thing that makes my phone go off at some time I'm not prepared to follow up that information. I want them to understand that a forum is largely used when I am sitting at a computer and my attentions are focused specifically on their product and THAT is when I want the information.
I want them to understand that the users here aren't just "old timers" but really an unpaid support group for new users to tap into the experience and knowledge of and as such are a valuable part of the company. And as such should be rewarded with a new home(Forum) appropriate to where they want LW to go in the future, not a relic of where is has been left behind.

I want them to understand that different means of communications carry different weights and meanings. To me, social media isn't a "home" like a forum is.

What do you want?

hazmat777
10-05-2014, 11:17 AM
This is finally getting good !!!

You know, when I first got my LW 7.5 with the free upgrade to 8 w/ DFX+ I had saved up for a year and a half. The offer was expiring soon and I wasn't sure I could make it. I called NewTek and I'm not sure if it was a direct line or what but I got Chuck on the phone and asked him if there was anyway to buy-in a day or two late. He said he was sorry because that wouldn't be fair to the other customers, I understood and was able to make the deadline anyway.

Then around the end of the 9 cycle there was some questions about XSI's standing in the industry and LW development. That's when NewTek said they didn't want to, and I quote, "Go dark" like Softimage did because in their opinion it killed the software and people moved on.

For folks (like me) who don't do the "always on, never paying attention" social media thing, it seems like NewTek has gone dark with LW. I can't wait till they get this sorted because there is IMO a window that we are looking at here for a clear vision of what they intend.

Megalodon2.0
10-05-2014, 02:18 PM
No, not semantics. SPECIFICS! You say "pretty much everyone is aware" but not to the person who is doing the updates obviously. And this forum is largely filled with users from another generation. What we want may not be so obvious to this person. Tell them EXACTLY what you want and you have a better chance of getting it.

And yet... most users in this thread are aware that NT/LW3DG does NOT communicate. Plenty of examples on HOW to communicate have been provided - here and on a multitude of other threads. Yet they IGNORE this and continue to use silence. And as I said, communication is not done in the middle of a thread - it is done STARTING a thread where everyone can EASILY find it.


So you are after something very specific.
And that specific thing you are after, might not be the specific thing someone else is after.

I still think most of the complaints are rooted in frustration of the information they want but aren't going to get. The rest is just displaced anger.
You can think that all you want, but as we have seen here, there is NO communication from NT/LW3DG about ANYTHING. (And let's not even talk about the lack of communication regarding Nevron and Chronosculpt - another Rendition are we seeing?) And again, Matt stepping in in the middle of a thread is NOT communication. If I hadn't visited this forum in a week how would I find that? Answer: I wouldn't. As SO MANY here have mentioned, the SILENCE is deafening. Would there people still be complaining if Rob came in one a month and posted in the "Newtek Lightwave 3DGroup Announcements" (how novel, an actual place TO make announcements) and said much of the same every time? Yes, but then the complaint would not be one of silence. And I'm sure that Rob could come up with something new that they are working on that would not be specific (and with caveats), but enough satisfy MANY here.


But if you can narrow down specifically what you want them to give you to make you happy, who knows? They just might deliver.
Been there, done that - for MANY YEARS.


I don't think any amount of threads saying "Hi, still hard at work. Things are great!" is going to make those users who are currently unhappy any less so. What some have said they want is "acknowledgement" but I think that is in fact a bit disingenuous. They want more but sometimes it is difficult to come to terms with what we perceive to be the less attractive qualities in ourselves like selfishness.
Right now? No, probably not. But had they been updating us every month with COMMUNICATION so that we know that THEY know how important that communication is, there would be FAR LESS people here complaining about "lack of communication." And as I said, giving away a little bit here and there (again with caveats) would go a LONG way. You can't tell me that there are things (little things) that they've been working on that that are working and can be divulged in the abstract.


But I will tell you this, I don't think it is a priority with them. Because this forum is home to a relative handful of die hard users and their current efforts on social media outlets are courting an ocean of younger people and potential new users.

I want Lightwave3D Groupt to recognize that social media is mostly just a "blip" on a screen that gets swept away in the stream of social media. Just one more thing that makes my phone go off at some time I'm not prepared to follow up that information. I want them to understand that a forum is largely used when I am sitting at a computer and my attentions are focused specifically on their product and THAT is when I want the information.
I want them to understand that the users here aren't just "old timers" but really an unpaid support group for new users to tap into the experience and knowledge of and as such are a valuable part of the company. And as such should be rewarded with a new home(Forum) appropriate to where they want LW to go in the future, not a relic of where is has been left behind.

I want them to understand that different means of communications carry different weights and meanings. To me, social media isn't a "home" like a forum is.

What do you want?

The strange thing here is, you are essentially agreeing that they should provide info in all places - social media AND the forums. That's what we've been saying. But there must be SOME information parted between NT?LW3DG and us. I'm quite sure that if any layperson were to look at the features/enhancements/improvements that have been COMPLETED, one or two small tidbits a month could be divulged without giving away the bigger picture - and even state that these MAY not make it into the final version. Now you can argue that people will be pissed off if these things don't make it into the final version. You would be right. But there would be FAR fewer people annoyed than those of us receiving ZERO information now. And I'm not saying they need to divulge ANY new tech AT ALL. "Hey guys... we've been working fast and furious on LW12. As you know, we can't say anything specific, but OpenGL perfomance enhancement is looking very good. We don't know how much speed improvement there will be, but right now it's looking very good. And OBJ import is now much better. We are hoping that this will make it in the initial release - but as you all know, plans can change. Keep your fingers crossed." And then they can have a little bit about what other people are doing in LW.

And OFFICIAL communication by the head of LW. It's not allot to ask for. And we know, everyone won't be satisfied. But apparently only the die-hard LW fans are okay with complete silence. Judging by this thread and others here, I would bet MOST would appreciate some decent communication.

spherical
10-05-2014, 03:37 PM
I want Lightwave3D Groupt to recognize that social media is mostly just a "blip" on a screen that gets swept away in the stream of social media. Just one more thing that makes my phone go off at some time I'm not prepared to follow up that information. I want them to understand that a forum is largely used when I am sitting at a computer and my attentions are focused specifically on their product and THAT is when I want the information.
I want them to understand that the users here aren't just "old timers" but really an unpaid support group for new users to tap into the experience and knowledge of and as such are a valuable part of the company. And as such should be rewarded with a new home(Forum) appropriate to where they want LW to go in the future, not a relic of where is has been left behind.

I want them to understand that different means of communications carry different weights and meanings. To me, social media isn't a "home" like a forum is.

What do you want?

Very glad to read that you agree (http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?143629-LightWave-Now-Bumped-Farther-Down-In-The-Pecking-Order&p=1402195&viewfull=1#post1402195) and have added some worthwhile specifics on top of them.

Just for the fun of it, I hit the lightwave3d.com site last night and every link on the pages is internal, except for "Forums". One of these things is not like the others.

There's even 27 pages of Gallery over there, with thumbnails! Huh? To make a pertinent pun, What's wrong with this picture?

hrgiger
10-05-2014, 06:42 PM
Dexter Ive been very specific, as have many other users have, about what we would like to see concerning information. Its not about laying out specific plans or roadmaps, its about engaging the userbase in some type of dialogue concerning LW development. Ive started more then a few threads about it, been told many times they are aware the could be better about communicating, even been told that they have plans to do so and then....nothing.

LightWave perception is poor and they choose to address it by staying silent. Instead of engaging users, instead of talking to people about what things need addressed, how they plan on on moving LW forward they just let things languish and when you have people thinking LW is dead...well, usually when I ask people something and they go silent, I just assume that what i was thinking is true.

wesleycorgi
10-07-2014, 06:41 AM
want Lightwave3D Groupt to recognize that social media is mostly just a "blip" on a screen that gets swept away in the stream of social media. Just one more thing that makes my phone go off at some time I'm not prepared to follow up that information. I want them to understand that a forum is largely used when I am sitting at a computer and my attentions are focused specifically on their product and THAT is when I want the information.
I want them to understand that the users here aren't just "old timers" but really an unpaid support group for new users to tap into the experience and knowledge of and as such are a valuable part of the company. And as such should be rewarded with a new home(Forum) appropriate to where they want LW to go in the future, not a relic of where is has been left

This is a great point; the marketing is what may hook the new users. It's the forums that will help nurture them. I hate all the social media crap (except for YouTube and Vimeo if that is considered SM), but then again I have grey in my hair.