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Ade
11-26-2003, 10:28 AM
Guys Im desperate, i cannoth render my scene without it always crashing!
Done every mac thing possible (trash prefs etc) and then started to config LW by trying to render with one thread... Still crash.

Render quick shade, still crash.

Whats the deal?
I save before I render but it still crashes.
My scene has some caustics, one volumetric light all rendered off a dual g4.

This DOES NOT HAPPEN on the xeon pc at work, I can render F9 with confidence there, on the mac its embaressing, its very Panini!

paintboy
11-26-2003, 11:49 AM
try going to the render options and chek save rgb(in the format of yer choice)
and hit F10 and see if it will go.has worked for me.
this bug jumps up and bites my *** occasionally, i have hunted and hunted
no solution found.(i donot think it has to do with prefs as replacing does not help
something in the scene file is hosed, is my guess.besides doing f9 renders and using the image viewer window increases your overhead and actually takes longer, in most cases, not only does it have to do the render but then the display as well.
always save scene first.(especially if you have changed camera settings or render options)
save all objects too.( if you have been surfacing)
if none of this works try "saving as"
with a diff name.
hope this work or helps?

eblu
11-26-2003, 12:14 PM
ade,
what kind of symptoms do you have? based on what you wrote, I have some pertinent questions...

os version?
does the crash occur with other scenes?
what happens if you incrementally turn off things, such as caustics. or even remove objects one at a time?

maybe load all of the objects into a new scene, and hit f9?


apparently other people have issues with f9 as well, but I have not noticed anything related to f9 rendering.

I truely want to belive that its a corrupt scene/object file or a permissions problem. Otherwise, from my perspective, its one of those bugs that Newtek will never be able to reliably reproduce... yes, there are bugs like that. and if they can't reproduce it, then they can't test it, and they can't fix it (of course, they could just re-write all the code, eliminating the bug, but adding dozens more, but thats besides the point).

hey, I know it sucks, but please keep us updated, perhaps we can define this, and either eliminate it ourselves, or figure out a workaround.

-eblu

Beamtracer
11-26-2003, 01:44 PM
Originally posted by Ade
Mac G4 DP 1.25/1.75 DDR
Formac "17 Platinum ATI9000
panther/LW7.5, 6x8 wacom +

Panther? Did you say Panther?

Put your Panther away until LW8 comes out in a few weeks.

paintboy
11-26-2003, 02:06 PM
good catch beam, didnt notice.
but for the record it isnt just a panther issue.
i am running X.2.6 LW 7.5.plain no b or c
no hub.
have seen this less and less over time.
which may be related to checking all the things mentioned above, then again maybe not?
its definately object related, and may have something to do with surfacing.
ade got any plugin/shaders in the mix?
like BDRF.

Ade
11-26-2003, 07:32 PM
Nothings working and I am not re installing my OS, Im so sick of this **** its safe to say Lightwave sux on mac.:mad:

Had to stay back 3am to use a freaking pc at work just to render, feel my anger.

Beamtracer
11-26-2003, 08:17 PM
Originally posted by Ade
Nothings working and I am not re installing my OS Ade, you're making life tough for yourself by continuing with Panther at the moment.

Paintboy's advice is good. Isolate the problem. Copy your model, take all textures, shaders and plug-ins off and see if it works. Then add things back in one by one until it fails again.


Originally posted by Ade
Im so sick of this **** its safe to say Lightwave sux on mac.:mad: Lightwave doesn't suck on the Mac. Generally it's as stable or more stable than LW on Windows. My G5 has never crashed while hitting F9.

What you've gotta do is find out what's gone wrong on your system. If it's not Panther that's to blame, is it something peculiar about your model or scene?

Ade
11-26-2003, 08:37 PM
I think I shouldnt post when Im angry!
I just installed 10.2.3 and it did the exact same thing.
Atleast in Panther I could have saved the crash log for newtek to look at.

OK now rendering with 1 thread, CAUSTICS OFF AND VOLUMETRICS OFF, the scene hasnt crashed.


Updated: Now with caustics on and volumetrics on rendererd 8 threads and its working...WTF is with this unpredictibleness? I cannot trust this system.

Will boot into panther now and try to crash it and get a crash log.










Exremely angry cause these problems dont happen on a xeon and are unacceptable and embaressing.

Ade
11-26-2003, 09:14 PM
Panther is no go..Sheesh man doesnt this ever end?

Cannot do any of the above without a crash.

------------------------------------------------



Date/Time: 2003-11-27 15:09:32 +1100
OS Version: 10.3.1 (Build 7C107)

Command: LightWave (/Applications/LightWave 3D 7.5/Programs/LightWave)
PID: 358
Thread: 0

Exception: EXC_BAD_ACCESS (0x0001)
Codes: KERN_PROTECTION_FAILURE (0x0002) at 0x00000000

Thread 0 Crashed:
#0 0x0053b0e8 in 0x53b0e8
#1 0x00535860 in 0x535860
#2 0x0053160c in 0x53160c
#3 0x00530ee8 in 0x530ee8
#4 0x00530e40 in 0x530e40
#5 0x00604768 in 0x604768
#6 0x00607124 in 0x607124
#7 0x0078e1d4 in 0x78e1d4
#8 0x0078b33c in 0x78b33c
#9 0x0078b6c0 in 0x78b6c0
#10 0x0078b7c0 in 0x78b7c0
#11 0x00790100 in 0x790100
#12 0x00439f18 in 0x439f18
#13 0x004af8c8 in 0x4af8c8
#14 0x004afc88 in 0x4afc88

Thread 1:
#0 0x9001a5ac in syscall (syscall + 12)
#1 0x9061f3fc in 0x9061f3fc
#2 0x9061bdf0 in 0x9061bdf0
#3 0x900247e8 in _pthread_body (_pthread_body + 40)

Thread 2:
#0 0x90017048 in semaphore_wait_signal_trap (semaphore_wait_signal_trap + 8)
#1 0x9000e890 in _pthread_cond_wait (_pthread_cond_wait + 624)
#2 0x90626630 in 0x90626630
#3 0x900247e8 in _pthread_body (_pthread_body + 40)

Thread 3:
#0 0x900075c8 in mach_msg_trap (mach_msg_trap + 8)
#1 0x90007118 in mach_msg (mach_msg + 56)
#2 0xc000a954 in __ape_internal (__ape_internal + 37048)
#3 0xc0001328 in __ape_agent (__ape_agent + 64)
#4 0x900247e8 in _pthread_body (_pthread_body + 40)

PPC Thread State:
srr0: 0x0053b0e8 srr1: 0x0000f030 vrsave: 0x00000000
cr: 0x44802244 xer: 0x00000004 lr: 0x00535b74 ctr: 0x00530e10
r0: 0x00535860 r1: 0xbfffeeb0 r2: 0x007e4000 r3: 0xffffffff
r4: 0xffffffff r5: 0xbffff028 r6: 0x0757f318 r7: 0x00000000
r8: 0x0757e528 r9: 0x00000000 r10: 0x00000000 r11: 0xa028132c
r12: 0x007e51bc r13: 0x00000000 r14: 0x00000000 r15: 0x00000000
r16: 0x014b2b5c r17: 0x00000000 r18: 0x014b6544 r19: 0x00000000
r20: 0xbffffe84 r21: 0xffffffff r22: 0x0127ac64 r23: 0x0127c1d8
r24: 0x012b1a0c r25: 0x0148fd10 r26: 0x0148fd18 r27: 0x00555378
r28: 0x00000000 r29: 0x00000000 r30: 0xbfffefd8 r31: 0xbffff028

mlinde
11-26-2003, 09:59 PM
Ade, there's a little memory meter utility I have called MenuMeters check out versiontracker install it, and set it up to track your RAM usage. Keep an eye on it during the F9, and see if it's crashing at a regular spot in the rendering, which would suggest your machine is running in to a bad block of RAM when you are trying to render the scene.

Beamtracer
11-26-2003, 11:37 PM
Interesting suggestion, Michael. I was starting to wonder whether RAM could be a problem. I'll take a look at MenuMeters myself.
Originally posted by Ade
Atleast in Panther I could have saved the crash log for newtek to look at. I always thought that OS 10.2 could save an application crash log just as well as 10.3 can.

Ade
11-27-2003, 04:56 AM
Beam it kinda can but u have to type something in terminal and it will save the log in your documents folder. Panther just mac it more mac like and does it for u.


BAD ram...Hmmm cause I rememebr I have had this problem on every mac I have had using lightwave.
I will strip it back to factory ram and see what happens.
But anyway that cannot be feasable because I am not the only one experiencing it, I believe it has something to do with the wired ram being used at that moment.
I ask Newtek guys to look at the log I have got and try and explain some theories to us.

Panther has a memory indicator window now and I have been keeping an eye on it, but its the little things I notice like-

xeon machine loads the whole scene faster.
far quicker refreshing.
No Tom Foolery when rendering scenes with or without caustics/Volumetrics.

Maybe its a G4 thing or maybe not, but I feel LW feels so much more responsive + stable on a pc or any type.

Ade
11-27-2003, 08:52 AM
Panther now does its own memory monitoring in activity viewer.

Anyways heres something interesting, when loading the scene up it usually pauses on 9% but in monitor it shows as "hung"...Hmm....Scott can u talk to us.

paintboy
11-27-2003, 10:13 AM
still dont think its panther?
if you watch the renderdisplay window carefully even under x.2. it will still hang in the same place, usually( or in my experience as soon as it hits the object with the prob.)
wont hear from scott soon mate,
big holiday here in the states, everyones probably out till monday.
also as my tag points out i cant remember all of the malarky, but i seem to remember a bug involving raytraced reflections. and caustics?
anyone else remember this?
sstrange oyu can remove caustics and things work.

Ade
11-27-2003, 07:30 PM
Raytracing ehh..Hmm will try turning it off now..


All I know is I am going to have to spend another 3 am shift at work to use a PC to get this scene rendered..

Im soo disappointed, the mac has 100% let me down as being unable to render the scene in any way... If this keeps up I will have to make a decision next week to switch over..

riki
11-28-2003, 12:20 AM
Do what I do, render the image with F9 and then take a screenshot :D

I have the same problem, but haven't tried to fix it yet.

Ade
11-28-2003, 04:05 AM
What I dont nderstand is how these major problems are allowed to pass not detected. I mean cmon man sooner or later we are going to have to render a scene...

I am not impressed at all, this will make me think if LW8 is worth the sale if is going to have this problem persist.
I never hear of these probs with apps like c4d or maya, they seem to be travelling less problematic macwise.
:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :eek:

Ade
11-28-2003, 08:44 AM
OK some progress...


Turning off Adaptive Sampling, doing a render seems to be fine with all threads.

mlinde
11-28-2003, 07:45 PM
FWIW, this is one of the available visual options in MenuMeters:

riki
11-28-2003, 09:36 PM
It may or may-not be a problem with Lightwave. It could be OS related. Since switching to OS 10.1.5 I've noticed a number of annoying problems.

Probems with Classic APPs constantly freezing, problems correctly selecting text in my email APP, problems releasing dragbars after scrolling. Also I really hate that little spinning-rainbow colourred wheel. It always pops up and ruins my screenshots.

mbaldwin
11-29-2003, 08:38 PM
I've also encountered F9 crashes. It doesn't seem to be directly related to scene complexity, or whether the content directory is set to the right location, or godawfully-high renders, or ditching the hub prefs--cause I've seen the crash persist through all sorts of variables.

One thing I've found that works to subdue the crashmonkey: If you encounter a scene/project where layout crashes upon hitting F9, quit out of the hub and restart Layout again. Then do an F9 render with the camera set to an extremely small resolution(like, for example 320x240pixels or less). Chances are, your scene will survive the render and show the results in the Image Viewer. You can close the Image Viewer render and set your camera for a re-render at a higher resolution, Now rendering out with crash-free results on settings that would have previously choked Layout.

If others could corroborate my success, I'd love to hear about it: maybe these symptoms/workarounds could also provide some clue as to why Lightwave Layout crashes to begin with--If anyone from Newtek tech is listening, I'd love to hear possible explanations.

Ade
11-29-2003, 08:59 PM
If i remember correctly theres a certain command line u can type to disable the hub.... I think its the hub doing all this crashing. Does anyone know the command line to disable hub?

riki
11-29-2003, 10:42 PM
I never use the Hub. The command line is '-0' from memory.

paintboy
11-30-2003, 09:02 AM
-0 is the correct command to turn hub off...
but i never run the hub and have seen this.(the hub is just to damn unreliable, works for a while... and then it doesnt?
i am with mbaldwin i think it may have to do with the camera settings.
if i change those settings, i do not dare try a F9 render without saving the scene first.
odd that changing the rez would make it work, similar to what i have seen by resorting to F10...(Ade did you try this?)if you can get it to "go by" the sticking point once, then it seems to work ok from then on?more LW weirdness.

BrianW
11-30-2003, 03:40 PM
I am having the same bull**** happening here. Press F9 watch Layout crash. I am running OS 10.2.8 and LightWave 7.5c on a dual 1ghz. The only thing I have been able to do to get my sceens working is to rebuild the sceen each time I render with out saving them. Even when I save the sceen it stills craches. Layout is corupting the sceen file or something. But I am in the same position, I can't meet my deadlines anymore on the Mac and I hate this. Something has to change with Lightwave on the Mac. My sceenes are fairly large I guess 200,000+ polys plus radiosity. I can turn radiosity off after saving and it still crashes. It is acting like it can't handle very many polys at onetime. Sheesh this f***ing rediculous!
BW

Ade
12-01-2003, 02:06 AM
OK SO FAR SO FIXED!

Move the hub out of the programs folder, run Layout without hub..


HUB doesnt work on macs, its purely eye candy...It is whats causeing the problems.



Lets see how far this stays fixed for..

claw
12-01-2003, 05:25 AM
Wow, How complex are your scene Ade? My experience with LW on mac is that it's very unstable when it comes to scenes with many high poly objects and textures. I just couldn't stand it so the company I worked on at that time got me a PC instead, worked much better. I know it's hard to leave the mac, but sometimes it's necessary. The hardware shouldn't leave you left behind, rather the opposite.

claw
12-01-2003, 05:30 AM
Oh sorry, I just saw that you find a fix! Ignore what I wrote.

BrianW
12-01-2003, 06:41 AM
Ade you are the man! I trashed the hub from programs folder and all of the scenes that I was having problems crashing are no longer crashing. Hell ya! Go Ade! One more step towards productivity!
BW

ingo
12-01-2003, 10:01 AM
Glad to see its only the hub again. I normally had no problems with F9 renderings, although my scenes have usually around 2.000.000 polys and sometimes raydiosity.

LW crashes here mostly when i have done a lot of testrenderings and more than 30 pictures available in ImageViewerFP, sooner or later LW crashes than.

riki
12-01-2003, 03:07 PM
Originally posted by BrianW
Ade you are the man! I trashed the hub from programs folder and all of the scenes that I was having problems crashing are no longer crashing. Hell ya! Go Ade! One more step towards productivity!
BW

No need to trash the Hub, just '-0' to deactivate.

Ade
12-01-2003, 05:07 PM
Riki the cmd files dont exhist in the programs folder for some reason..
Moving the hub out of the programs folder (no need to trash, even though it deserves it) works too.


I wish mac lw didnt have all these problems that force the users to trouble shoot in important job sessions.
Many of our bugs are fatal, I just dont see this level of bugdom in any other packages. LW is more mature than maxons stuff yet this is embarressing, I cant even convince my friends to use LW cause they say, man those bugs to scarey.

riki
12-01-2003, 05:39 PM
I think you can just create a blank ACSII text file called 'Modeler cmdLine' and 'LightWave cmdLine' (no File Extension). It should work. LW seems pretty stable for me at the moment. But then I have come from using it on OS9 which was really unstable.