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Surrealist.
08-26-2014, 09:00 PM
At risk of stating another heated thread, which is inevitable, I'd like to pose this idea because I think the consideration of this factor is more important than the negative aspects that will arise from another Gooseberry or Blender thread.

I am not sure how far ahead in this that people are thinking. So I'd like to pose my version of the future after Gooseberry which I think is going to have a significant effect on the software industry.

Consider the following:

Partial list of software companies offering software rentals:

Microsoft
Adobe
Autodesk
Side Effects (free version and yearly licenses)

Partial List of software companies offering tiered licensing schemes or greatly reduced or free versions:

Autodesk (fully functional free versions for students Maya Lite)
Side Effects
Quixel (dDo ndo etc)
Allegorithmic (Substance designer)
Pixar Renderman (free non-comercial and reduced price)
C4D (lite version bundled with Adobe AE)

This is just a sort of off the top of my head list. But when you look at it, it is a fairly large percentage of the industry and some very large market share.

I am seeing a trend here.

The basic idea. Marketing plan: Getting the software in the hands and used by as many people as possible - completely aside from direct income.

That this in itself is an investement that no wild marketing ploy can achieve.

Offering discounts up until a certain time is in my opinion a very weak and old method. It works. But then another sale has to happen again, and again and again. Whereas these plans are perpetual and apparently are working.

Even Blender is a marketing plan. Open Source itself can be a business model where money comes from other sources than a particular product. And where the mass use of the product opens the door to having a "captive audience" if you will for other services.

So what is coming is Blender, after it grows development wise through the process of creating a feature length film, will really have a huge impact on this market after the film is released and even more people take notice. I think it will be very substantial. And a lot more small and indie companies will turn to Blender for studio solutions. In my company, even though we will primarily use Maya for the heavy animation stuff, have completely converted to a Blender workflow for everything else. Because I can not yet afford the higher fees for a number of seats I don't really need. Eventually I plan to turn next to Maya rentals, but that is a little further down the road. In the meantime Blender has worked its way into my studio quite heavily. And I am able to train Maya artists in it very quickly and usually one for one, they enjoy using it and find it easy and powerful for modeling and basic tasks. My initial training sessions usually never last more than one day or two. Just to get up and running. When studios start finding out how easy Blender is to implement into a pipeline, you will see this more and more.

So the question is, where will LightWave be in 2 years?

Will there be a rental version? An indie version with a resolution limit on renders? Will there be a completely functioning free version with no limitations but perhaps a watermark for non-commercial work?

In effect will there be a concerted effort and is there planning in place to be ready for a shift in the market? - Gooseberry or not really.

Tools wise, I think there will be a lot of improvements over the next two years. But I just had these ideas completely aside from that.

What do you guys think of this?

I am sure LW 3DG is paying attention to these trends. I am wondering if they care to comment on their thoughts about it.

And if - although asking a lot here - this discussion can be kept to an objective view of the software market and not devolve into a flame war and eventually nitpicking and personal slurs which is always the way.

Can we avoid all of that?

lightscape
08-26-2014, 09:37 PM
Can you show your studio reel or work you have done with Blender?
If possible specify where blender was used compared to maya in your company.

Paul_Boland
08-26-2014, 09:46 PM
Trying to stay within your request to not let this thread go off the rails, I do have to say this...

"Where will Lightwave be in 2 years?"
For me, this is an impossible question to answer and I'll tell you why. Over the past few months I have seen us, the Lightwave user base here on the forums, asking for any bit of communication from the powers that be, Newtek and the LW3DG, and what have we had...? Silence. For me, the no-show at Siggraph was a biggy because I was expecting something from Newtek/LW3DG on what exactly was happening with Lightwave? With the Lightwave forum dropped a few notices in the forum list, the separation of Lightwave from Newtek, and the establishment of the LW3DG who have been dead silent since they came into being, I have no clue what is going on with Lightwave at the moment, let alone in two years time. I will admit, the new www.lightwave3d.com website is very nice indeed, but it's an eye-catching front for a company that doesn't communicate with its user base and for me that is not good...!!

Where will Lightwave be in two years time...? My question is, will Lightwave still be a consumer product in two years time? And I'll tell you why I ask that...

Before I came to Lightwave, I was a Caligari TrueSpace user. When TrueSpace 7 came out, the company promised a revolution in the software. The fan base were not impressed and a call for legacy TrueSpace ensued. Then Caligari went quiet... And then news broke they had been bought out by Microsoft. Not long after then the company, and TrueSpace, were shut down.

Now lets look at Lightwave... Newtek announces CORE with a massive reveal campaign. The fan base are not impressed and call for legacy Lightwave to remain. It does. Lightwave 10 comes out and meets with a swift end when 10.1 is its only update. Lightwave 11 arrives and delivers a lot of what was promised in 10. Then Lightwave splits away from Newtek and since then (and before then), with the Lightwave user base asking questions and wanting some word, ANYTHING, from Newtek and/or LW3DG, all we get is silence...

Umm...

Also, I have noticed big educational colleges that were built on, and boasted their use of, Lightwave, such as DAVE's School in Orlando Florida, are now working with Autodesk products, 3D Studio Max and Maya. Magazine coverage of the software is practically non-existent. And go to Amazon and look for Lightwave books and they are all old titles.

From my perspective, Lightwave is lost at the moment and the question I have is, WHAT'S HAPPENING??? But with only silence coming from LW3DG all I can hear are the familiar bells of when Caligari went silent which lead to the end of the company and their TrueSpace 3D software.

Time will tell...

shrox
08-26-2014, 10:25 PM
...And go to Amazon and look for Lightwave books and they are all old titles...

There are many video tutorials available now, but I like books too.

Surrealist.
08-27-2014, 02:32 AM
Can you show your studio reel or work you have done with Blender?
If possible specify where blender was used compared to maya in your company.

You can reach me by private message or email for specifics. Probably better than derail the thread here. I have talked about my software choices many times here on the forums and I would like to steer this thread away from comparisons and talking about software specifics as it is only going to lead to more comparisons and discussions which will lead to arguments and eventually an A vs B or C software thread.

One thing to note is that I as able to get an education license for AD software which was invaluable to me. I was able to evaluate Softimage for several months before deciding to purchase it. And I left Maya open as an option to upgrade to a suite later. The pricing strategy at the time was very affordable for me. I was able to get a competitive upgrade to Softimage for a discount and the upgrade to suite later was very affordable as well. Basically giving me a suite of software for the price of Maya. I wound up with Maya Softimage, MotionBuilder and Mudbox.

But again - hopefully - to the point, it was not until I started using Softimage for about a year that I eventually decided that Maya was a better suited software for my needs. So it took a long long time of working and evaluating Softimage - a very heavy program - to finally get my head around what it could actually do for me - and not do for me.

And that really is my main point.

And what led me to this?

Using LightWave off and on for about 20 years and intensively for 3 years from 2005 to 2008 when I was finally able to evaluate my needs more specifically and then turned to Blender. After using Blender for a few years I eventually began researching for a better solution and wound up with Maya after about 2 years search.

The point here is that it takes time to evaluate a complex piece of software. And if you are learning the process of 3D along the way - as I was - it takes longer. 30 days is hardly enough time for 3D software which is extremely complex.

So from a marketing perspective I think a lot of companies are realizing this. Certainly Autodesk has seen this reality.

Even though artists and studios have come to Maya for character animation and that is enough just on word of mouth it still takes time to cultivate a workforce for that product. And the best way is to offer some kind of working free edition that an artist can learn with for a matter of years not months.

Houdini has had the apprentice and apprentice HD program for a while and now they have Houdini Indie. The problem they are solving here is how do you get artists to come over to Houdini when it is such a complex piece of software that it can literally take a year or more to just get your head around it? The answer is long term working versions for evaluation and learning.

This is the same kind of approach.

Another acknowledgement is the indie sector and competitive pricing for that market.

These are the things I think are relative to this discussion.

Specific software choices are an individual thing.

So the deal is I suppose, if LightWave is supposed to be this easy to use and wonderful package (all true) where is the effort to back this claim up by allowing artists to have access to it and try it in their pipelines and get their head around the LightWave way of doing things? For long the long term not just a trial. Discovery mode is real horrible, so not a good solution in my opinion.

You know artists still do currently migrate to LightWave from Maya and Max all the time. Some people are looking for simpler solutions to things and do not need all of other features of other software.

Rob Powers makes presentations about how LightWave has advantages over these other software choices....

So how about baking that up with a LifghtWave indie?

How about a free education license for students to try out along side other software?

I think completely aside from the other issues we have been discussing here these last few weeks these are things to consider.

So the 2 Year question is not really where will LightWave be technologically speaking. I think there will be vast improvements in 2 years. The question is, should they not be laying the groundwork now for what is certain to be a drastically different landscape with pricing and software availability across the indusrtry? And start casting a wider net now and not rely merely on the next new release or a "buy now" sale to bring more people in?

What do you guys think about this specifically?

lightscape
08-27-2014, 02:53 AM
And that really is my main point.


I'm not getting your point. Are you asking what newtek will do when blender org releases project gooseberry?

Surrealist.
08-27-2014, 03:24 AM
Well I think that it will have a significant impact on an already changing software landscape. I mean think about it. You have a feature film produced with 6 small indie studios around the world. This will have an enormous impact. And in the mean time Blender will have improved on many aspects of the character animation workflow.

Other indies around the world will be watching and very definitely take notice. It still won't replace Maya but it will have a huge impact on that market. And I mean it will be a real factor.

Also concurrently the software market is changing drastically by the month and more and more companies are offering indie versions and some rentals etc.

Where is LW Group in all of this now? What are they doing now to prepare and step in line with a changing market and put themselves into position to compete with these newer more realistic business models of offering indie and other free non-comercial licenses for evaluation that exist now?

That is the main question I think.

It is not about can LightWave compete with Maya or Blender or anything like that as far as tools. It is already a recognized alternative solution. The question is what are they going to do to step up their marketing plans to include these trends that I think will kind of peak when Gooseberry is released?

pinkmouse
08-27-2014, 03:35 AM
Where is LW Group in all of this now? What are they doing now to prepare and step in line with a changing market and put themselves into position to compete with these newer more realistic business models of offering indie and other free non-comercial licenses for evaluation that exist now?

Frankly, on current form, who knows? LW3DG may know, but they certainly aren't going to tell us. They don't tell us anything else, why should licensing be any different...

Surrealist.
08-27-2014, 03:40 AM
Trying to stay within your request to not let this thread go off the rails, I do have to say this...

"Where will Lightwave be in 2 years?"
For me, this is an impossible question to answer and I'll tell you why. Over the past few months I have seen us, the Lightwave user base here on the forums, asking for any bit of communication from the powers that be, Newtek and the LW3DG, and what have we had...? Silence. For me, the no-show at Siggraph was a biggy because I was expecting something from Newtek/LW3DG on what exactly was happening with Lightwave? With the Lightwave forum dropped a few notices in the forum list, the separation of Lightwave from Newtek, and the establishment of the LW3DG who have been dead silent since they came into being, I have no clue what is going on with Lightwave at the moment, let alone in two years time. I will admit, the new www.lightwave3d.com website is very nice indeed, but it's an eye-catching front for a company that doesn't communicate with its user base and for me that is not good...!!

Where will Lightwave be in two years time...? My question is, will Lightwave still be a consumer product in two years time? And I'll tell you why I ask that...

Before I came to Lightwave, I was a Caligari TrueSpace user. When TrueSpace 7 came out, the company promised a revolution in the software. The fan base were not impressed and a call for legacy TrueSpace ensued. Then Caligari went quiet... And then news broke they had been bought out by Microsoft. Not long after then the company, and TrueSpace, were shut down.

Now lets look at Lightwave... Newtek announces CORE with a massive reveal campaign. The fan base are not impressed and call for legacy Lightwave to remain. It does. Lightwave 10 comes out and meets with a swift end when 10.1 is its only update. Lightwave 11 arrives and delivers a lot of what was promised in 10. Then Lightwave splits away from Newtek and since then (and before then), with the Lightwave user base asking questions and wanting some word, ANYTHING, from Newtek and/or LW3DG, all we get is silence...

Umm...

Also, I have noticed big educational colleges that were built on, and boasted their use of, Lightwave, such as DAVE's School in Orlando Florida, are now working with Autodesk products, 3D Studio Max and Maya. Magazine coverage of the software is practically non-existent. And go to Amazon and look for Lightwave books and they are all old titles.

From my perspective, Lightwave is lost at the moment and the question I have is, WHAT'S HAPPENING??? But with only silence coming from LW3DG all I can hear are the familiar bells of when Caligari went silent which lead to the end of the company and their TrueSpace 3D software.

Time will tell...

Yeah I understand your points.

I think they have more or less stated what they can about where they are headed. I am not really expecting them to come out and say more anytime soon.

Nor do I fully expect them to come here and comment on this though it would be nice. But I just think it is a topic worth discussing. I am sure they are looking at these things. Just would be good to get feedback from the community on this mostly, in a mainly informative, objective, thread without pages of infighting. I think it would help LW 3D Group consider some angles.

I think there is a positive future for LW.

What do you think about my predictions and ideas?

Surrealist.
08-27-2014, 03:44 AM
Frankly, on current form, who knows? LW3DG may know, but they certainly aren't going to tell us. They don't tell us anything else, why should licensing be any different...

True... so I guess I should be asking. What do you think about it? What do you think about these ideas? I don't know why but the concept just hit me and I don't know felt like putting it up for discussion. We have talked about these things a lot of times other places. But really the landscape is changing as we speak. Things seem to be moving to these new models. What do you think about that? And what impact would these things have on LightWave if they were implemented?

jwiede
08-27-2014, 01:12 PM
There are many video tutorials available now, but I like books too.

The "barrier to entry" costs of (real, not self-) publishing books also acts as a "market size test" -- no such equivalent limits video tuts.

jwiede
08-27-2014, 01:30 PM
Well I think that it will have a significant impact on an already changing software landscape. I mean think about it. You have a feature film produced with 6 small indie studios around the world. This will have an enormous impact. And in the mean time Blender will have improved on many aspects of the character animation workflow.

The exact same sorts of claims were made regarding each prior Blender movie effort, and yet Blender's position relative to the overall 3D market has changed very little. What is different about their plan this time that rationally suggests a different outcome will occur?

KurtF
08-27-2014, 01:59 PM
Blender can release anything they want, shorts, live action pieces, full CGI feature films, but - it's still Blender. The way they implemented Tabs was weak, and the rest of Andrew Price's suggestions seem not to have taken hold.

"Developers make Blender for Blender Users" - translation: their software does not conform to GUI standards established by Macintosh and Windows (and Linux!) GUI's and you either embrace that, struggle learning how to use it (and struggle every time you switch back to a regular, conforming piece of software), or you don't.

Blender - Meh!

Surrealist.
08-27-2014, 02:08 PM
The exact same sorts of claims were made regarding each prior Blender movie effort, and yet Blender's position relative to the overall 3D market has changed very little. What is different about their plan this time that rationally suggests a different outcome will occur?


Well you bring up an interesting aspect to this.

Here is how I see it. Blender has actually had quite a position the indie game market recently and had a small impact on the indie studio up to now. And this recent growth has literally blossomed after the release of the last two films and in particular the new interface. It has now begun to move far more significantly into the indie studio market and even further growth in the indie game market. It has very little growth in the larger studio market and I expect that will not change much if ever. At least not in the foreseeable future.

Blender's presence however small is not overlooked by even the larger software companies. I believe it was after Sintel was released that Autodesk had the slogan "Stand out don't Blend in" which many read into as being targeted at the Blender market. Who knows? But I am sure they feel the pressure. The mere existence of a product on the market that can take any number of seats a way from sales is a factor they pay attention to. And they - as well as many other companies - have answered to this trend. It is a presence and that is enough. And I am not even saying that Blender is driving this entirely. This is actually a trend driven by the mobil app and other small game markets. It just so happens that Blender was there, is free, and can export to game engines. That is enough for many small teams. I have been working with such a team now for 3 years. Completely Blender all the way. The ability to script and customize Blender and the Ogre game engine is at the heart of their pipeline for a team on a budget.

Regardless of my evaluation of this, one thing is for sure. There is a recognized "indie" market that major companies have recognized. Blender is a part of it. So improvements to that software is a constant threat.

Now as to Gooseberry.

I don't see this as being a drastic leap. But I think it will be fairly significant.

For one Feature Films get way more attention than shorts. To pull off a feature is exponentially more challenging.
Second, it will have been produced by indie studios around the globe.
And lastly and most importantly the character animation tools will get a face lift as a result.

This will raise Blender up the ladder and people looking to start small companies will consider it much more than they would before and I believe this will have a very stong effect on the perception of the market and large companies will try and answer to it.

LW 3D Group has yet to tap into any of these markets in a significant way as far as pricing and tiered plans. Yet recent tools like Nevron seem to indicate that this is a market they are interested in.

I would not be surprised if some larger studios start restructure some of their pipelines to save money as a result.

Blender will not ever compete with Maya or any high end tools. But it will and does compete for shops who don't need those tools and can get by with less. Much like how LightWave fits in for a lot of people, or as an addition to existing Maya and other pipelines.

lightscape
08-27-2014, 07:18 PM
The exact same sorts of claims were made regarding each prior Blender movie effort, and yet Blender's position relative to the overall 3D market has changed very little. What is different about their plan this time that rationally suggests a different outcome will occur?

I agree. The problem is blender is blender. And there are many problems with it aside from the pro community seeing it as a threat to their skillset. Marketting blender to the pro community is tough.

Ton will never be open to suggestions. Blender users are for blender users is the mantra.
The community is even more biased to doing it their own way. Even worse than older generation lightwave and modo users.

As an entry point for artists it is just not simple to learn blender. A seasoned 3d artist can grasp blender more but even a lot of them give up. That is the beauty of lightwave and modo with its simplicity and basic, direct to the point workflow its easy to create something beautiful fast.

Blender developers come and go and tools need to be maintained. Its dangerous to base a professional studio pipeline on something with the possibility that a tool will not work next time or ever because the developers are there to make a name and exposure. Didn't they lose another dev to Solld Angle?

The projects that involve blender are either so low budget indie or free. They're not self-sustaining. Most indie studios die within 2 years trying to survive using software that is not mainstream. But its a good to chase a dream and blender can do it for free.

Paul_Boland
08-27-2014, 08:59 PM
Yeah I understand your points.

I think they have more or less stated what they can about where they are headed. I am not really expecting them to come out and say more anytime soon.

Nor do I fully expect them to come here and comment on this though it would be nice. But I just think it is a topic worth discussing. I am sure they are looking at these things. Just would be good to get feedback from the community on this mostly, in a mainly informative, objective, thread without pages of infighting. I think it would help LW 3D Group consider some angles.

I think there is a positive future for LW.

What do you think about my predictions and ideas?

I like what your goal is with this thread, trying to get Lightwave back on its feet. And I agree, Newtek need to get Lightwave back into colleges and into the production mainstream. But I also agree with what you said about the way Autodesk are offering FREE fully functioning educational versions of their software, how can Lightwave compete with that!?!

I certainly hope Newtek/LW3DG are working in the background with a plan for Lightwave's future. It would just be nice if they popped in from time to time to say Hi and give up a little update on what's happening. Compared to all the other 3D software packages on the market, Lightwave seems to be in limbo.

tischbein3
08-27-2014, 10:44 PM
Ok, can't resist.


It is not about can LightWave compete with Maya or Blender or anything like that as far as tools. It is already a recognized alternative solution. The question is what are they going to do to step up their marketing plans to include these trends that I think will kind of peak when Gooseberry is released?
I think its a no-brainer: they should more proactively demonstrate their strenght in comparison to the others and how well it actually plays with them.
Especially as for blender users there is a lot wich makes lw attractive for them. Renderer, modeling workflow for archiviz stuff etc....

for example, just render out some of the gooseberry files (with the same quality) and post the pc specs + render times.....



Blender can release anything they want, shorts, live action pieces, full CGI feature films, but - it's still Blender. The way they implemented Tabs was weak, and the rest of Andrew Price's suggestions seem not to have taken hold.

As far as I know most of his proposals of his first video (changing the defaults) will be integrated, as for the second part he himself said it was flawed.
Also I doubt that from a lightwavers perspective anything wich was shown in the second part would actually help them to "get it" better.

roboman
08-27-2014, 11:59 PM
A billion years ago, when I was 4 or 5, I use to draw little things on the corners of book pages and make flip books. It was magic, all the little still images coming to life. In the 70's I built a cromenco system, several cpu's and a graphics card that was basically vga. All the cpu's were slow and all the software was hand written. Then the Atari was easier to program and others wrote animation programs for it. Really the quality sucked, but it was border line good enough for student or really low budget film titles and credits. Then the Amiga came out and lots of great animation software. The speed just wasn't there. Then the whole Amiga thing fell apart and there was 3ds on the pc, but it was still to slow. By the late 90's I was back with Lightwave, but on the PC and a room full of them was fast enough to make a movie, or at least a short. I embarked on several video game and several movie short projects. I became very impressed with people who actual manage to get one finished. I've gotten the models and even much of the animation done for several projects, but seem to lack the group leadership part that brings people in to help finish the other parts. Even the ones I didn't lead fell apart due to poor leadership. I've done lots of titles, logos, credits, trade show reels and product demos. All one man show things.

Lightwave, around ver 7, seemed to have a bunch of people driven to do shorts, with dreams of movies. Blender now seems to have a bunch of people driven to do shorts with dreams of doing movies. I still like Lightwave better then Blender. I think it's just a matter of people who have the ability wanting to actualy do it. There is even a large stream of poser, daz and stop motion Lego shorts being put out....

shrox
08-28-2014, 01:06 AM
...there was 3ds on the pc, but it was still to slow. By the late 90's I was back with Lightwave, but on the PC and a room full of them was fast enough to make a movie, or at least a short. I embarked on several video game and several movie short projects. I became very impressed with people who actual manage to get one finished. I've gotten the models and even much of the animation done for several projects, but seem to lack the group leadership part that brings people in to help finish the other parts. Even the ones I didn't lead fell apart due to poor leadership. I've done lots of titles, logos, credits, trade show reels and product demos. All one man show things...

Sounds like me.

Surrealist.
08-28-2014, 01:12 AM
Just a reminder, this is not really about Blender exactly....

All of these points I knew would start to get argued have really been discussed back and forth endlessly in other threads.

This thread is based on certain facts. Regardless of your personal opinions about Blender.

A review of the bullet point facts:

Large and even small companies are starting to cater to a "new" market they are calling the "indie developer" or "indie studio" and of course freelancer. Translated, this means they acknowledge there is a growing market for cheap software that packs a punch. So they are offering thier high end software with tiered pricing. This a fairly new trend.

Blender caters to this market. Always has and until now has been the main option for people on very low budgets. This lower end market is growing.

Project Gooseberry when finished will have a - significant in my opinion - effect on that particular market and start to grow ever so slightly in higher markets.

So the question is, where will LightWave be in the next year or so in regards to this market?

What kind of impact on LightWave, development will trying to open to this market have?

Starting now and offer tiered pricing for example. A free education version, longer trial period, yearly rental option.

These are the trends now. And LightWave still has very limited options for purchase. I believe it is either full or ED version at this time.

In the future I predict this will get even more problematic to compete and not offer these options.

Project Gooseberry is just a good kind of target point for a shift in a trend. Because Blender is here and it does have an effect. And companies do acknowledge this even if you don't.

What direct experience am I basing this off of?

I run a small indie studio. Most of my clients are small indie developers/content creators who use Blender at the center of their pipeline. I have seen this trend in the market precede the acknowledgement of this market by larger companies. I also had previously migrated all of my work to Maya XSI and other higher end solutions. Prior to opening my studio I preferred to work in these apps and then port back to Blender.

After opening a studio I did the math and presently I could not afford Maya seats for the 6-10 artists that I had working for me at any given time. So I decided to train them in Blender.

I found that training in Blender was extremely easy and fast. My Maya artists - much to my surprise - loved it and preferred it. The feedback is that it is simple, easy to learn and use. I was very surprised about this frankly given the amount of misinformation spread around to the contrary.

As for conventions, there are none - at all. We use Maya XSI, Mudbox, MotionBuilder, Zbrush, 3D Max and of course Blender. I have a network floating license of my AD products so we can float this seat around the studio as needed. And all of my artists move between at least two or three different programs. And there is a running joke in the studio about getting caught up in the key short differences between say XSI and Maya or Maya and 3D Max. Not to mention Zbrush which is way off the charts. And then open PS and you are in an entirely new world. So in the case of Blender it is just another world to step into. And we all do this daily anyway.

So what about LightWave? Well I own one seat. I would like to see what happens in LW 12 to see if there are features that are must have. As it is to me, now there are none. So I have not bothered to train anyone in it. That could change. And indie pricing would be a huge factor in that for me. But this has nothing to do with the thread per se. This is just me and old time LW user who would like to see this software do well. And I would welcome it back into my pipeline under certain conditions. I am not alone I am sure in this thinking.

djwaterman
08-28-2014, 01:31 AM
It's too hard to even know what project gooseberry is and how it will turn out (unless you are working on it), hopefully it doesn't resemble in anyway that silly teaser video at all, that was probably just thrown together to promote the initiative. The movie could easily flop like 90% of movies do, so the main benefit would have to be developing production pipelines that are really solid.

Surrealist.
08-28-2014, 02:07 AM
Well yeah, all of this could be true. We don't know 100 % on any of it.


I'll place my bets on what I have stated.

kadri
08-28-2014, 07:27 AM
Regarding free versions of programs.
I used the free limited version of Terragen for maybe 2 years and then bought it.
Reasonably limited free software are much better then 15-30 day trials.
Especially with 3D programs.

vonpietro
09-03-2014, 09:15 PM
anyone recall scuplt 3d and then 4d?

shrox
09-03-2014, 11:25 PM
Update lens flares.

Make the surface sample rendering window twice as big.

Implement scroll wheel zoom.

Add a square/rectangle option to spotlights.

gerry_g
09-04-2014, 03:31 AM
Don't implement scroll wheel zoom that usually screws it up for tablet users or to be more precise it tends to get implemented by the coders in a way that impacts badly for tablet users because they didm't think it through properly, I have twice come across Microsoft software implemented in such a way that moving my pen closer to the tablet causes vertical scrolling because it has been designed that way for scroll wheels but no one has thought to see if it affects tablet use and worse have provided no override solution

Surrealist.
09-04-2014, 04:07 AM
Wonderful, lacking anything to say about the subject we have resorted to random feature requests. :D

By the way scroll wheel works fine in all of the 3D apps I use that have it. No reason LightWave should be any different.

lightscape
09-04-2014, 05:16 AM
there is a growing market for cheap software that packs a punch. So they are offering thier high end software with tiered pricing. This a fairly new trend.

Blender caters to this market. Always has and until now has been the main option for people on very low budgets. This lower end market is growing.

So the question is, where will LightWave be in the next year or so in regards to this market?

What kind of impact on LightWave, development will trying to open to this market have?


I would ignore this market because of the ff.

1. There is little money to be made with cheap people who want stuff free.
2. You will be competing against blender which doesn't rely on sales for development.
3. These people will not go to lightwave until its a split app. Only lw users accept this split. Others won't

This is not a new trend afaik. Gmax, XSI Mod Tool, C4d tiered(crippled) version, Adobe combos. They're not new.
Modo Steam is a complete failure. I don't know about Houdini indie its too soon to tell. But it seems like a rebranded Houdini apprentice which is their way of trying to get a piece of AD userbase especially now with softimage users looking for something to move to.
I do hope that Newtek would give educational licenses for free since there's no dongle anymore that is a significant cost.

Surrealist.
09-04-2014, 08:53 AM
Thanks for contributing some thoughtful remarks.

Here is what I think:

The idea is not new bit the broad trend is is very new. In fact indi versions showing up in the last year. Some only in the last few months.

As far a ignoring this market, that is not something that companies can do. Competing with Blender is exactly what they are aiming to do.

Maya lite specifically caters to the stated "indie developer". Before Maya Lite there was Modo, LightWave and Blender for software under 1,500. Those software were lacking good gaming tools for the price whereas Blender pretty much out of the box gave you all of the basic content creation tools out of the box with a fair amount of support for exporting to games. A no brainier for a developer.

Maya comes in as an alternative in this market. And it is fairly clear to me that it is an answer to loosing those sales to Blender. At least in part not to mention simply acknowledging it as a market that can also be further exploited as companies invest in the Maya workflow, and then later upgrading.

This is brand new in the last year. Softimage also had foundation and sure there was the mod tool. It had greatly reduced features. Not all of the high end effects tools were in it. I used it to get familiar with the XSI interface and way of working. But that is about it.

As far as money to be made off of free versions. That is a short sided view and exactly the kind of lack of foresight that LightWave has been plagued with.

While indie may be new over at Side Effects, they have been offering the ED and Apprentice HD for years now. It has apparently served them well. It is a long term plan, as is Autodesk ED licensing.

Would people choose LightWave? Well some people are now. Why would this be any different?

And my projection is that in two years time things need to change. That is enough time for LightWave to have (and likely will have) some more attractive tools for this market.

It is just one of those things that to me seems completely inevitable. That is my opinion. And I do think LWG will offer something along these lines. They have already mentioned they have been thinking about steam. But I don't really think that is the answer.

gerry_g
09-04-2014, 09:12 AM
sorry to be off topic, don't say anything in this thread because of the pervasive feel of people sitting around in sack cloth and ashes talking doom and gloom just because we didn't get a new release this year. I used to wok solely in concept not hands on 3D and back then in the nineties I commissioned CG that was done in LW and post stuff was done in Houdini and finished of on Lightbox, I think it's kind of a testimony to LW and Houdini that they are both still around but neither is hot or trendy despite one of them at least having a very impressive feature set. If I was to sum up in glib terms what makes something be perceived as cool and must have I would say trendy modern interface +kick *** particle and physics+cutting edge animation controls and reasonable modelling tools, XSi seemed to be just that, LW is none of that, Modo had the interface and Houdini has a lot of the tools sans animation but nothing else, and then there's Maya

Greenlaw
09-04-2014, 12:24 PM
The projects that involve blender are either so low budget indie or free. They're not self-sustaining. Most indie studios die within 2 years trying to survive using software that is not mainstream. But its a good to chase a dream and blender can do it for free.

That actually has little to do with the software being used. Many smaller studios go under because of chronic underbidding of jobs, which ultimately hurts all studios and artists, big and small. When I was with the Box, we occasionally lost a contract to a smaller studio that seriously underbid the job. Not surprisingly, the 'lowest bidder' would often fold after a year or two but that didn't help us because another 'cheap' startup with a poor business plan would be all too eager to take its place.

Of course clients usually get what they pay for too. :)

G.

jwiede
09-04-2014, 12:35 PM
Don't implement scroll wheel zoom that usually screws it up for tablet users or to be more precise it tends to get implemented by the coders in a way that impacts badly for tablet users because they didm't think it through properly, I have twice come across Microsoft software implemented in such a way that moving my pen closer to the tablet causes vertical scrolling because it has been designed that way for scroll wheels but no one has thought to see if it affects tablet use and worse have provided no override solution

Which software? I'd like to file internal reports on the issues. We're actually quite diligent at MS about testing different input methods in software expected to reach end users (for accessibility / assistive device reasons, an issue quite near and dear to me) so issues like that shouldn't be making it out into released products.

I've never heard of behavior before quite as you describe, and tablet hover doesn't really generate the right msg type to trigger zoom in the same way as mousewheel msgs. I wonder if the zoom effect was due to slight tip position changes while hovering after somehow CTRL modifier flag got activated (inadvertant sticky keys maybe?), and that was what was causing zoom changes? That would generate the right message types, and depending on how you had things set up, could easily be mistaken for the behavior you described. I should even be able to replicate locally, unless you had exotic tablet hw.

In any case, if you can help me pin down where the problems occur, I can try to get them fixed. As I mentioned, I'm sensitive to accessibility issues, and improper input method handling means there are likely related accessibility issues as well. I'm in XBOX / Devices now, but I should be able to get it in front of the right people for fixing (or fix it myself).

jeric_synergy
09-04-2014, 12:57 PM
What Greenlaw said: it's really hard to compete against people who foolishly underbid projects.

It's not sustainable. I used to work with a guy like that, and the deal was: he was a trust-fund baby. He didn't HAVE to break even. Sadly, he wasn't a BIG TIME tfbaby, he just got enough to continually limp along, month after month.

Not a pleasant experience.

And there's always a new schmuck fresh out of school to take their place when they finally go under.

jwiede
09-04-2014, 01:07 PM
And there's always a new schmuck fresh out of school to take their place when they finally go under.

And a sucker to believe the deal they're offering is amazing.

It's probably past time to give the squids their chance, alas.

lightscape
09-04-2014, 06:53 PM
Thanks for contributing some thoughtful remarks.

Here is what I think:

The idea is not new bit the broad trend is is very new. In fact indi versions showing up in the last year. Some only in the last few months.

As far a ignoring this market, that is not something that companies can do. Competing with Blender is exactly what they are aiming to do.


That's a no win situation. You can't compete with free and go down to their level. A struggling business would just pack up and leave. Good thing Autodesk is loaded.
And because this trend is not new, we might see Maya LT be repackaged again or completely outdated/ignored in a few years. Same for houdini but their motives are different. They want more users from Autodesk to switch for the past few years. Not happening unless houdini becomes more mainstream like c4d.



That actually has little to do with the software being used. Many smaller studios go under because of chronic underbidding of jobs, which ultimately hurts all studios and artists, big and small. When I was with the Box, we occasionally lost a contract to a smaller studio that seriously underbid the job. Not surprisingly, the 'lowest bidder' would often fold after a year or two but that didn't help us because another 'cheap' startup with a poor business plan would be all too eager to take its place.

Of course clients usually get what they pay for too. :)

G.

Yes budget is a major concern but software has something to do with it. When studios are based on pipelines that don't play well with others, they don't get the work for obvious reasons the other one want's to work in the same pipeline and working together is seamless. How many lw based studios struggled because people want to use maya, max? Or because they were using modo that people have not heard of. Or because you're not using adobe.

The ***** hits the fan when more and more studio startups try to do business using blender for the sole reason that it doesn't cost anything. Blender is big in indie for that reason. It might come someday legitimate studios will use it and more underbidding than the current underbidding. They won't be sustainable and have a lifespan of a year before they go belly up competing with another blender based studio bidding for peanuts.

safetyman
09-05-2014, 06:13 AM
I don't think catering to an indie market alone is enough to breathe new life into LW, and I'm not saying that's been suggested here. One method to get new users into the fold is to shake things up (*cough*cough* Core), and don't sit still. That only works if you're Adobe, who hasn't released any significant updates to their software lately because they don't have to.

Autodesk is going down that road as well since they are really the only game in town in many respects. They are so confident in themselves and their products (understandably) that they are now going to fleece their user base out of a monthly fee. Short term this seems like a good idea, but if you're locked in to a monthly payment for all your seats, what do you do when they slowly raise the price? You either pay it or go with something else at great expense. Hopefully this won't kill small studios eventually. The big boys already have software they use outside of AD products that they've created in-house, so they will adapt and move on. Maybe even shedding AD products entirely if they choose to.

That's why it's a perfect time for LW to step up to the plate and hit one out of the park. Without having to answer to stockholders, the LW3DG can really take a huge chuck of AD's users with tools that offer an alternative to Maya or Houdini or whatever at a lower price. I don't know what that magic bullet is, but it needs to happen, and soon.

Which brings me to my next point. The stuff many LW users have pointed out and complained about regarding Blender are exactly the same kinds of things that Maya/3DS Max/Modo etc. users point out about LW: Non-standard interface (text vs icons, split programs), difficult to implement pipeline, not many big studios using it, doesn't help you get a job, etc., etc., etc..... It amazes me how some LW folks are quick to jump on the Blender sux bandwagon, but fail to see that similar things are keeping LW from becoming even better. It's a fallacy to say that Blender is difficult to use just because you've tried it and didn't like it. I use it every day and it's quite easy to learn and use... for me. LW is easy to use as well, but if you're used to software X, it can feel quite a bit different, or even difficult. I hope you see the point without thinking I'm a Blender fan boy.

Gooseberry: I think a lot of folks have the wrong idea about it's purpose, or maybe just don't see the point. Project Gooseberry wasn't intended to put butts in movie theater seats, which is the goal of Hollywood. All the Open Movie projects are intended to make Blender a better platform, which in turn will bring more attention to it as a legitimate tool for production, which in turn will bring more users to it, which in turn will add dollars to the Blender Foundation, which will lead to more open projects. It's been a successful process, whether folks recognize it or not. Open up version 2.49 if you don't believe me.

What can LW learn from Gooseberry? Not sure, since I'm sure the LW3DG listens to their production environment customers in order to make their lives easier and offer better tools.

I apologize for not offering any substantial suggestions.

tischbein3
09-05-2014, 08:04 AM
The ***** hits the fan when more and more studio startups try to do business using blender for the sole reason that it doesn't cost anything. Blender is big in indie for that reason. It might come someday legitimate studios will use it and more underbidding than the current underbidding. They won't be sustainable and have a lifespan of a year before they go belly up competing with another blender based studio bidding for peanuts.
Well the reason blender is "big" (is it actually ? or ist this again a cgtalk myth ?) in indie gamdev is, that it just does the job. Modeling is just good enough, uv mapping is quite well done , and it provides some good (enough) exporters, even for some obscure game formats. (wich are also open source, wich _is_ a biggie game pipeline wise) ah, and yes, animation features are also just good enough for whats needed on the gamdev front...no wonder if you consider its close ties to its own game engine.

As for non gamdev related studios.Yes you might be right, although again, if you consider what hardware is needed to render out cycles animations in an acceptable timeframe (or buy an external renderer) things does not look as cheap. And this is one of the three major reasons I do promote a lw/blender workflow.

Surrealist.
09-05-2014, 11:00 AM
Yeah there are all kinds of things to speculate.

I can only say this much. I have personally dealt with a wide range of paying customers with Blender. All over the map as far as industry and required delivery. There is no way it is all people trying to just break into games or animation or compete for commercial work. However I am well aware of studios who do, that exist now, with full on Blender pipelines. The jobs and clients are not too far removed from the variety you get with LightWave. With the exception of more frequent opertunity. Much more live and well than the LightWave freelance market.

I have also had to train people in Blender at my studio and use it in our pipeline. It is not nearly has hard as people who seem to know what they are talking about state. Taking people trained in Maya is very easy to get them over to Blender. Really fast.

I imagine it is harder to go from LightWave to Blender because LightWave is so far removed from any standards in the industry with 2 apps. But I have not tired to train anyone. Only my own experience in switching.

One thing is absolutely certain. Blender is growing in popularity and use. I see the industry is changing. And Blender does threaten commercial interests in a big way. The more tools Blender has, the more companies - especially new ones - will start to conider it.

It is definitely not all kids and students and people with pie in the sky dreams. There are adults well in thier 30s and beyond with years of professional experience who turn to Blender for an answer in a professional money making venture. And it makes perfect sense. Why would you spend money on high end software when your modest needs don not require it? No one. And this has an effect on the market. Blender can no longer be ignored as eccentric, or "only for programers". or kids or any of the other convenient write - offs. It is here to stay.

Project Gooseberry will be a major milestone in this factor.

Think about it. You are a marketing executive at Autodesk and the internet is alive with a feature film of very decent quality produced by BF on free software with 6 studios around the world. If you are wearing your hat or you care about your job, you are worried. Not because Blender has any chance in hell of replacing Maya pipelines any time soon. But because this will further cut into the market that even Maya LT will not even be able to service. Now people are going to be looking to Blender for indie film work and commercials. And small shops in a financial crunch might just drop AD software and jump on the bandwagon.

It does not even matter what percentage this actually happens. But the fear will be there and any percentage taken away will be perceived as a loss to potential future revenue, whether or not it actually amounts to much. Anyone in the position to care will and should be worried.

And so should LW3DG in my opinion.

Change is around the corner, I think.

No Blender will not replace Maya pipelines in large studios pretty much ever. But it does not have to to have a serious effect on the market. Even if only a perception. That will be enough. And only the companies in a position to jostle to get a part of this market back will be able to.

And that will mean, based on current trends, the same software at as much as 1/3 or 1/4 (or more) the price with some limitations over the full versions even if only HD res.

safetyman
09-05-2014, 11:48 AM
Any pressure LW or Blender or Modo can put on AD will be welcomed. Like I said, the time is ripe for making AD sweat a little bit, so LW needs to step up big time. Another update with "an improved lasso tool" won't cut it anymore.

Surrealist.
09-05-2014, 12:25 PM
I don't have anything against, well actually any software company or software for that matter, so it is best left at that. But competition is always good.

For anyone still thinking this is not something to pay attention to, there is a reason I titled the thread as I did.

Have a look at thee links:

http://gooseberry.blender.org/about/

http://gooseberry.blender.org/free-software-targets/

http://code.blender.org/index.php/2013/12/plans-for-2014-2015/

Keep in mind Blender already has a modern workflow, also has cloth and hair, (both of which need much love). When/if this gets a significant amount of improvement, along with the improvements to the animation system this is going to be significant.

Here is a more detailed plan:

http://gooseberry.blender.org/developer-meeting-pipeline-and-tools/

I think we should embrace all software. But as a Blender user (now along side AD software for 2 years) for the last 6 years this is the first time I have seen the potential for Blender to compete on the low end as an animation tool.

For me hair and cloth were of the main things that drove me to something like Maya which in my opinion out of the box has the best solution for CA.

This is one main realistic stumbling block in my opinion for software such as LightWave, Modo and Blender to reach into the character animation market in a significant way.

Doing a lot of hair and fur and a lot of dynamics through a feature film is going to drive Blender to another level entirely.

It is going to set the perception among up and coming as well as some seasoned professional artists that Blender can do commercials, shorts, and feature films.

But ha ha ha it is also going to inspire a bunch more kids and dreamers that all they have to do is DL blender too. So it is even going to be more of a zoo... lol

Interesting times ahead I think.

jeric_synergy
09-05-2014, 01:44 PM
Very interesting discussion, thanks fellas.

My $0.02 about the Blender UI: I don't think it's actually any worse than any other UI, and on those occasions where I've buckled down and acclimated myself for a week or so, that 3D cursor starts to feel like a very dear friend.

jasonwestmas
09-05-2014, 03:15 PM
The exact same sorts of claims were made regarding each prior Blender movie effort, and yet Blender's position relative to the overall 3D market has changed very little. What is different about their plan this time that rationally suggests a different outcome will occur?

yeah I really don't see blender as a threat to Lightwave ( or any other package) in any shape or form. I can't think of anybody close to me in the workplace that thinks that blender is the package to use over what they are currently using. The owner buys whatever package we are comfortable in and we make it work. I work on a small team too.

It also doesn't really matter if the feature animation film (that was created in Products A,B and C) was good, what matters is groundbreaking software that gets noticed for workflow and raw power. Unfortunately that is the only software that gets put in schools and Indie's flock to those big names.

Surrealist.
09-05-2014, 06:08 PM
To me that is a given, absolutely. Which is why I started using Maya in the first place.

But at the same time there is this other market. In fact it is a foregone conclusion. If Blender was not on the market, all the serious users - and these are at least in the 5 figures I could guess - would be using other software. I would say that is significant. And in my own little world here, you could say I am a lost costumer to Blender when for me there was no other alternative. At the time Maya was not an option.

And I work with companies on a daily basis, all who use Blender all who pay, All are professionals, either start ups or other companies that have used it for one reason or another. None of whom will ever show up on the radar, won't make it in a magazine or have write ups on a CG website. But none the less get along and use Blender professionally and hire Blender or other CG artists. And this is just in my little corner of the world.

Each one of those companies has taken a seat away from the competition.

The reason Gooseberry will not be just another film is because it will be an event. And it is not just a film made solely to make a film. It is being made to improve Blender and as stated to sort of make a point. And I think it will be heard loud and clear by a lot of people.

And for this reason the software will be as big of a story as the film itself if not bigger.

cresshead
09-05-2014, 06:43 PM
i do not see project gooseberry making a massive difference (i put $$$ into that project btw)
blender has done a good few decent open movies..this one is just bigger/longer although they failed to secure funding for a full feature length movie.

with other vendors heading for the lazy route of rental due to lack of desire to develop (adobe/autopoop) this gave other vendors a great opportunity
to pick up artists who refuse the rental option.
The timing of which probably could not be better arranged with Lightwave 12 due to be show maybe next august (2015)

yes blender will get a bump up too, so will the 'mini autodesk' of the foundry as well as maxon with another update to cinema4D due to ship some time next year
plus we have the fallout of softimage users storming out of the shackles of autopoop, maybe heading for houdini indie or blender.

times are a changing...and it could be just the thing to propel Lightwave into the area light!

lightscape
09-05-2014, 10:32 PM
yeah I really don't see blender as a threat to Lightwave ( or any other package) in any shape or form. I can't think of anybody close to me in the workplace that thinks that blender is the package to use over what they are currently using.


i do not see project gooseberry making a massive difference

Agree. Same opinion. You won't see migration of maya, max artist to blender. That's career and financial suicide.

Surrealist.
09-06-2014, 04:53 AM
That does not need to happen for this to have the effect I am talking about. There does not even have to be any current pros that move to Blender. But some will as I have stated. And some shops definitely will. This has already happened. It has been documented in threads here already. There is even a thread over at Blender Artists that seeks to find all of the shops that use Blender. Quite extensive.

Again, there is this indie market that in fact exists because of Blender. This is already happening. It already is the case.

It is a forgone conclusion, really. It is already here.

My shop uses Blender. That is 5-7 Maya seats. Times 3K for a stand alone times 8K for a suite. One small little shop. And what are the numbers totally globally? Probably staggering.

You also have to consider new business who come along. AD and everyone else wants these guys, but unless they can offer something lite Maya LT or other, for the shops that do not require high end software.... Blender is it.

It will get "worse". Or "Better" depending on who you talk to.

Frankly I don't care either way. I will welcome more tools in Blender when that happens and in the mean time I get along. But I will probably add Houdini at some point and definitely looking for ward to testing out Renderman in a serious way now that it has come down in price. LightWave is just a wait and see at the moment.

So since this is a LightWave forum, I think it is worth taking a serious look at what the future holds for LightWave at a time when a free software threatens to take away more customers than even now.

tischbein3
09-06-2014, 06:08 AM
Agree. Same opinion. You won't see migration of maya, max artist to blender. That's career and financial suicide.
Thats the beauty about "beeing free" you can use it alongside your existing programs: it does not affect the budget you have for your current pipeline.
So there is no financial need to actually "switch", wich occurs if you choose another commercial package. This is a completely different situation than just having another "kid in town"

So _no_ I don't think as for existing users of any 3d package there will be a big mass migration, but more of a gradual change to co-use it alongside their commercial packages.
This might result in more people and studios investing their energy to integrate it in their existing pipelines.
BUT even if this will happen I'm pretty sure there enough features and workflows in the commercial counterpart to actually make them still attractive for most of the users.

Will there be lesser seats sold ? Sure, but again lw is in the great position to actually provide an additional benefit and actually tap into the existing blender market.

Surrealist.
09-06-2014, 06:29 AM
For a studio there is very little advantage to add Blender just because it also has some useful tools. So you won't see people adding it just because it is free. What you will see is shops adding Blender rather than buying more seats of Maya for instance or even turning to LW. Especially if you have people specializing in Modeling alongside other parts of the pipeline, as I do in my shop.

Even if you have generalists in your shop it is better to use a floating license as needed. A very large percentage of time is spent with modeling UV mapping and textures. You can keep a small team going with just that. And bring in Maya for animation, cloth and hair.

This is what will change with Gooseberry.

Then a lot more shops are going to start to consider Blender for this because not all projects require a heavy software and the need to show a profit and stay competitive with pricing will continually drive shops to economize on seats. Even perhaps move completely to rentals of Maya as needed and use Blender for everything else.

Maybe think of this as a report from the field. This is happening already. It is in my corner of the world and plenty of facts to back up the fact that I am not alone.

tischbein3
09-06-2014, 09:28 AM
For a studio there is very little advantage to add Blender just because it also has some useful tools. So you won't see people adding it just because it is free. What you will see is shops adding Blender rather than buying more seats of Maya for instance or even turning to LW. Especially if you have people specializing in Modeling alongside other parts of the pipeline, as I do in my shop.
My point was, there is little to no disadvantage in adding it. Its not a financial or career suicide . For a studio its a one time investment setting up the pipeline (with all the advantages you wrote down). As for an individual its just an investment in time....wich you can easily spread on a much larger timeframe, since there is no financial pressure behind it.
As a result, the more people just realize that using blender does not equals switching to it, the more it will become the "main secondary application"...with even more studios supporting it.

As for lw, its up to newtek to embrace the change and market its strength, or just continue to represent their software as if they live in a bubble. (Both have there advantage...but imho the first is the better strategy)

So I think it does not contradict your pov, but just offers another aspect on this.
Thanks for the input / your perspective. Greatly appreciated.

roboman
09-06-2014, 10:47 AM
IBM probably had the best marketing line ever (nobody ever got fired for buying IBM). When the suits are buying stuff, they look at what every one else is doing, at the numbers and what those under them are saying they need, but with a big lean towards what others are doing. It's the safe thing to do. Aside from that, it's the tools people are use to or what they think will get the job done. That seems to amount to what's been put in your hands as a student / hobbyist and what you've heard has been done with what program. A long time ago I got several jobs based on the "oh wow, you use the same software that was used on Babylon 5". The 3DS dos people were impressed with lightwave solely based on Babylon 5 and shorts they saw that were done with Lightwave. Gooseberry is Blenders proof that it can make a movie, it's the "if I have Blender I could do that". I get the point that Lightwave hasn't had any of those for a while.

shrox
09-06-2014, 12:06 PM
IBM probably had the best marketing line ever (nobody ever got fired for buying IBM). When the suits are buying stuff, they look at what every one else is doing, at the numbers and what those under them are saying they need, but with a big lean towards what others are doing. It's the safe thing to do. Aside from that, it's the tools people are use to or what they think will get the job done. That seems to amount to what's been put in your hands as a student / hobbyist and what you've heard has been done with what program. A long time ago I got several jobs based on the "oh wow, you use the same software that was used on Babylon 5". The 3DS dos people were impressed with lightwave solely based on Babylon 5 and shorts they saw that were done with Lightwave. Gooseberry is Blenders proof that it can make a movie, it's the "if I have Blender I could do that". I get the point that Lightwave hasn't had any of those for a while.

I started at a studio with dos 3DS, then we were given both Max and Lightwave to evaluate. I chose Lightwave, but the three other artists chose Max.

Surrealist.
09-06-2014, 12:42 PM
My point was, ......

Yeah sorry I was bouncing off in another direction. I think we are on the same page. Thanks for the clarification.

safetyman
09-06-2014, 08:53 PM
I don't think you can ignore the fact, also, that if my company buys software A, if I want to learn it on my own time I have to be at the office for the most part. In my company, we'll eventually switch to Blender because A) The artists can install it on their home computers/laptops and use it without worrying about a license, and B) It doesn't cost the company anything and we don't have to get a network admin to install it for us. Software maintenance and upgrades are very expensive, and in these times of "do more with less" Blender is a very very viable alternative for us. Granted, we don't rely heavily on 3D software like other companies, but Blender makes my job easier and its feature set is top notch. It really is a "do everything" tool that shouldn't be ignored just because of its (unfounded) reputation.

Surrealist.
09-07-2014, 11:21 PM
Well actually in the case of LightWave up til recently there was a dongle so that was taken care of. With Autodeks products you are allowed one copy for home use. So if you have a seat in a studio ( which is usually a network license) you can also request a stand alone license to take home. ( believe that would apply to each seat) Not to mention if just for training purposes there are the ED versions. It would be well within your license rights to study software at home with such a license.

Certainly with Blender this is more convenient than requesting licenses and dragging around a dongle. And most software companies will allow you to install on two computers without too much issue - as far as I understand. I suppose now that there is no dongle NT must have some kind of solution for that.

As far as Blender's features, again it is kind of opening up a debate, and I am not sure we need to get into that. I mean other than to say, some key features will get some love after Gooseberry. I expect after that, it will be a whole new Blender.

And what that means is, it will get another level of recognition, not simply because they made a feature. I mean we can do that now. And it really would not make a difference. The main thing is that the goal of the project is to improve Blender and involve more studios to aid in that process during a production. I liken it a lot to Pixar.

And I think this interview speaks of what I mean:

R&D (http://renderman.pixar.com/view/future-of-renderman?channelId=d361ccdef85148f396f77ccd38079b 34&channelListId&mediaId=a59f0a0f10e548a4b98d4eb2a24d2c1f)

You open up development to input from (actually 12 not 6) studios around the world and you have a lot of people and teams supplying direct feedback to production needs. I think that is very valuable. This is quite different than the last films wherein a hand picked team of artists was put together under one roof with a couple of programers on hand to code fixes and so on.

Now you expand this to 12 teams and up the anti to making a feature. You have cycles now maturing and a lot of things coming together for the first time in this package.

I think these the salient points - to me.

Greenlaw
09-07-2014, 11:41 PM
My $0.02 about the Blender UI: I don't think it's actually any worse than any other UI, and on those occasions where I've buckled down and acclimated myself for a week or so, that 3D cursor starts to feel like a very dear friend.

After teaching myself to use ZBrush, I feel like I can learn anything. I have to confess, I haven't seriously tried to learn/use Blender yet but it can't be more 'non-standard' than ZB. :)

G.

Greenlaw
09-07-2014, 11:52 PM
Certainly with Blender this is more convenient than requesting licenses and dragging around a dongle. And most software companies will allow you to install on two computers without too much issue - as far as I understand. I suppose now that there is no dongle NT must have some kind of solution for that.

LW3DG's license is fairly liberal: you can install on any machine so long as only one instance is running at any time. It does check the network to make sure the rules are being followed but I don't think it's very aggressive about it. But if you break the rules often, I'm sure they'll know about it and take action.

BTW, you can still get a dongle for LW but I think you need to request it before registering. I normally run without a dongle but will occasionally use it if I need to run an old plug-in or if I want to run Lightwave on a third party computer but don't want to leave my personal license on it.

G.

lightscape
09-08-2014, 01:58 AM
The studios that I encounter saying they use blender and opensource appz have behind the scenes also using multiple Xforce. :ohmy:

Anyway here's a blender pipeline. Mainly done in blender......wonder what else.. :devil:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ni3rkBYHulU

Greenlaw
09-08-2014, 10:08 AM
When I was with R+H, the team over in India used Blender for some of their productions and they created a lot of in-house tutorials for it. Those tutorials were great--I wish I'd held onto them. Some of the artists in R+H the Box used Blender for creating elements that we used in Lightwave, like rain maps and other water effects. One of these days I really need to sit down and study it.

Lightwave will most likely continue as my primary 3D program but I think Blender could help fill in some of the holes in the features list. :)

G.

Dan_Ritchie
09-09-2014, 12:41 PM
Reguarding the future of Lightwave, I think the rule of thumb is that it's always the last. It was the last one when PCs got faster than Amigas. It was the last one when the Amiga went belly up. It was the last one when Maya came out. 5.5 was definitely the last one because there was no news of new products for over a year (and sure, 5.6 never existed) but the program doubled in features in 6, and it was the last one when founding members broke off, and it was the last one when everyone wanted a completely new "core," and it was the last one when they got it, and sure, 10 and 11 never existed, so, yeah, it's always the last one. In retrospect, I'd say Lightwave is heroically well adjusted.

Surrealist.
09-09-2014, 01:58 PM
Only it was more or less the first one to break open an entirely new market when it first came out. However that is not likely to happen again.

(Think 3D max came in around the same time and they were going head to head for a while) But I seem to remember the release of the first Toaster preceded that. I could be wrong. But LightWave got a lot of Use in TV soon after which seemed to eventually make the case of what it could do at a price.

So in that case I take it you consider that LW3DG will be the last to acknowledge a new market well after it has happened? What ever triggers it.

Fair assessment I guess.

And perhaps the reason why I put this thread here. Don't know if it will do any good. But it is interesting discussion.

jeric_synergy
09-09-2014, 05:27 PM
I'm pretty sure the Toaster launched WITH LW, simultaneously. Of course, you HAD to have a Toaster, not just an Amiga.

Before that was Videoscape, which was not really a viable production tool IMO. YMMV.

Surrealist.
09-09-2014, 07:19 PM
Yeah it did. 3D Studio was pretty much simultaneous. On the DOS Platform. I just remember going to user group meetings in 1995 and a lot of talk about comparisons between LightWave and 3DS. Seems like being on the Amiga made LightWave more accessible at the time.

My memory might be bias but it really seems to me LightWave took the lead in the 90s as the low cost solution. That was short-lived however. So that is what I mean when I consider it was more or less the first in setting a new price standard. The Toaster might be also more responsible for that reputation however.

jeric_synergy
09-09-2014, 09:51 PM
Oh, I think SeaQuest and Babylon 5 and several Vancouver based shows (Above & Beyond??) did the heavy lifting. It didn't hurt that NewTek really knew how to generate, sometimes misleading, buzz back in the day. Go Team-Kiki!

Oh, and there was Todd Rundgren's video too.

Dang, somewhere along the line they lost the program on holding onto designers. But there was things like .... The Logo Machine? That should have helped.

Surrealist.
09-09-2014, 11:10 PM
Yeah those were interesting times... ah but over. Ha Ha Ha....

Today, I'd look to Blender to accomplish a similar change in the industry as far as price/feature availability.

Case in point:

Road map for the hair improvements as a part of Gooseberry.

http://code.blender.org/index.php/2014/09/hair-system-roadmap/

safetyman
09-10-2014, 05:06 AM
I read that roadmap yesterday... very interesting. If they can develop a complete hair animation solution, that will send tremendous waves throughout the 3d industry. Blender's particle hair system is really good already, it just needs work on the simulation component and it's somewhat difficult to get good results without a lot of study.

Surrealist.
09-10-2014, 05:56 AM
Yeah, I commented on that post over there, I really think they should have a look at the nHair and nCloth solutions. Seems they are trying to do a similar thing will all of the dynamics playing well together under one solver. They are on the right track.

If they can provide something that is controllable and renders well in cycles, that is huge and will definitely attract more indie studios to Blender for shorts and commercials. It will have most of its impact on the market for apps like LightWave and Modo - I think - hence this thread.

I believe the larger companies are already on it. But how will LW3DG respond?

chikega
09-10-2014, 09:43 PM
Yeah, I commented on that post over there, I really think they should have a look at the nHair and nCloth solutions. Seems they are trying to do a similar thing will all of the dynamics playing well together under one solver. They are on the right track.

Everything working under one solver? Sounds very Houdini-ish :)

safetyman
09-11-2014, 05:18 AM
I believe it will be nodal as well.

Surrealist.
09-11-2014, 09:19 AM
Lukas comments on that here.


We would like to “nodify” the hair system eventually. There are quite a few effects that can be combined, and nodes have the advantage of clarity because the user explicitly adds individual effects, instead of using a large one-for-all system and disabling parts of it. However, getting the solver stabilized, completing physical effects and improving the editing tools has higher priority.

http://code.blender.org/index.php/2014/09/hair-system-roadmap/

Marander
09-12-2014, 12:20 PM
Richard, from your experience, could you point out some advantages and disadvantages you see in the different products you use (LW, Blender and Maya)? For example I guessed modeling in Maya would be superior to the others but maybe it's not. And is MentalRay included in todays Maya license? Does is need much more steps to create a basic model, lighting and texturing? How is the result / quality with the same effort? This would be very interesting (not considering cost). Thanks!

jeric_synergy
09-12-2014, 01:03 PM
Maybe it's a grass is greener thing, but everybody seems to complain a bit about their modeler.

I mean, it's confusing when you don't know the product: from the OUTSIDE, C4d's modeling capabilities seem impressive, but I've witnessed a LOT of grousing about them.

One thing I know, there're practitioners in EVERY app who blow my mind with what they produce.

Marander
09-12-2014, 01:09 PM
Yes you're absolutely right Jeric. That's why it's interesting to hear from a pro who uses all of them (
I'm more thinking of common tasks in comparison or workflow, not features like fluids or hair). Maybe an example how modeling , texturing or lighting is different. I'm sure all apps have their cons but I'm more interested in the different approaches and efforts required. Writing MEL scripts is powerful I guess but is it required for a lot of common things too?

jeric_synergy
09-12-2014, 01:40 PM
I was very excited when I was following a blender book about the parametric modeling, but after a bit it really slows the machine down and becomes quite confusing. Possibly I was expecting too much or using bad workflows: I suspect it's critical in parametric modeling to know "when to quit", i.e. freeze the model so you can start modeling FAST again...

Also, some people have REALLY enhanced workflow with scripts, Actions, macros and what not: I just purchased all of Chazriker's videos ( Liberty3d.com (http://www.liberty3d.com/citizens/ryan-roye/ryan-royes-videos/), Ryan Roye) and he has a light rig that seems almost magical in its speed. So, all I can say is keep your eyes open and learn from everyone (inevitably, I learn something that isn't even the subject of a given video that turns out to be hugely valuable...).

Surrealist.
09-12-2014, 01:40 PM
Well to keep it within the bounds of this thread, it is when you move out to features like Hair and Cloth for character animation, that the apps start to separate in usefulness.

For a lot of the basic features you can stick with whatever works best for you.

And the reason Blender works for me in my studio is because there is little advantage to working in Maya over Blender for the basics. However most of the tools in Maya are just a shade more flushed out which is nice. Also Maya has very nice retopo tools presently. So I do have a tendency to use Maya for certain things.

And of course Maya is better at all of the animation related tools. I also use MotionBuilder which is in my estimation the best tool for mocap data.

Gooseberry should ease Blender in the direction of more people using it for animation and character related tasks such as hair and cloth.

LightWave will also be getting some love I think in the next few year that will make it more attractive to indie guys... but I think it will be a different market landscape then. Even PMG just started offering a yearly "rental".

And that is more or less what this thread is about.

Marander
09-12-2014, 01:56 PM
Thanks Richard and Jeric this are interesting insights.

Surrealist.
09-17-2014, 01:18 AM
You are welcome

Related news:

http://www.cgsociety.org/index.php/CGSFeatures/CGSFeatureSpecial/lightwave_3d_group_offers_695_lightwave_11.6_cross grade_to_2d_and_3d_artist

Notice the short film promoted.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQGCid9_Rrg
Nice angle.

Cross grade is a start in the right direction. :)

Surrealist.
09-29-2014, 11:25 AM
Sorry to bump but, I had not read the wording on this.


The LightWave 3D Group proudly stands in support of independent artists and rogue studios that like to flex their creative spirit.

https://www.lightwave3d.com/crossgrade_promo/

http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?143459-695-LightWave-Crossgrade-Offer-From-Any-2D-3D-Program

to the "the indi market is not something worth paying attention to" argument...

I rest my case. :D

Yeah I know... "join the rebellion" and all of that. But this is a new wrinkle.

So... I think if anyone has not done so, have a real good look at project Gooseberry and do some research on it.

I really do think it is going to be a turning point for software. It won't be insignificant.

jasonwestmas
09-29-2014, 05:19 PM
That's great you have something to believe in Richard, keep it up, seriously.

So what is all this rebellion stuff about anyway, is there a conformist clone in all of us wanting to escape the dark empire? I didn't know I was enslaved in a software kind of way, I can use whatever I want to use at any given time. USA! :D

Surrealist.
09-29-2014, 09:25 PM
lol Funny man.... really. For a lot of people it just comes down to money, though I think realistically. So while you and I have been fortunate enough to expand our toolset to something like Maya, many people are not in that position.

And this is what software companies are seeing. They want that market too.

It has nothing to do with any of my personal allegiance to software any of my beliefs. Really. I am just pointing to some things I see.

And since the start of this thread even, we now see NewTek also acknowledge this market which I am sure is pure coincidence to the trend I have been seeing and not directly related to this thread.

I merely point to Gooseberry as something to watch.

Even though I have plans to move forward with Maya for animation, I also have an eye open on Blender, just watching.

Surrealist.
11-13-2014, 09:53 AM
Gratuitous bump.

More evidence that this trend is here and is hitting hard. Both of these of course referenced here on the forum already but here they are:

https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/fusion

http://www.thefoundry.co.uk/products/nuke/non-commercial/

Interesting discussions here:

http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?144353-Fusion-7-now-FREE

Again, so you see it is not me. I have no particular angle. This is just happening. Seems any company that does not have a free non commercial or scaled down version of what they are selling will have a hard time justifying why in the face of where not only the VFX industry has been going but where the software industry seems to be following.

vonpietro
11-13-2014, 04:40 PM
was there any mention of how studios are giving away free software so that people can start learning it and using it, and then when studios adopt said software, there is a good user base of individuals who know the software. That seems to be what blender has ignited.
and what fusion may also be trying to ignite. Trying to get that user base back from nuke. =)

Surrealist.
12-11-2014, 05:20 PM
More related News:

http://www.thefoundry.co.uk/about-us...do-mari-indie/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtiLp_lUiQg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dklWENcYnX8

Both Mari and Modo "Indie" releases.

LW_Will
12-11-2014, 11:04 PM
Sorry to interrupt, but I recently bought a copy (on BluRay) of Short Piece and I must say that each of the sections is amazing. Lot of computer graphics, lot of color and really good stories.

I highly recommend it.

Chernoby
12-16-2014, 10:43 AM
No matter how impressive Blender gets... have no fear... the UI will keep hordes of people away. It is like learning a weird foreign language. Only people who have spent a really long time studying it and using it say it is "intuitive." ANYTHING seems intuitive after spending years learning it. No other UI is that problematic.

And Paul_Boland is absolutely correct with Autodesk becoming standard everywhere including universities. Even in computer "high" art departments where Lightwave used to be dominant Autodesk has replaced it completely (not a little or a lot... completely). Experimental and "high" computer artists used to use Lightwave because they're aim was conceptual, gallery based art and they didn't need or even want photorealistic or traditional narrative based animation. Now that all programs have become easier to use the Lightwave "generalist" moniker is becoming obsolete; an artist can just as easily be a jack-of-all-trades using Maya.

But Lightwave has always been an underdog and it still can compete. Newtek just needs to begin to address getting more users or it will be fatal.

bpritchard
12-16-2014, 11:26 AM
the UI will keep hordes of people away. It is like learning a weird foreign language.

I don't 100% agree with this... to use Zbrush as an example. THATS a horrible UI that has brought in a ton of users. Not defending blender in anyway, it is a pretty crazy UI but I can't see that as the big hindrance to people using it. I think the reality is that there is a stigma to open source software... people tend to think its not valid or doesn't do the same job as something you pay thousands for. I do love lightwave... love it on every level (even though there are parts that frustrate me everyday) but I think that Blender is catching up on some levels to the big dogs. It may never get there, but I say definitely A for effort. Having tried it, its not really that bad... especially if you setup the inputs to work in a fashion you're more familiar with.

Anyways.. just my 2 cents. :)

Surrealist.
12-16-2014, 11:58 AM
No matter how impressive Blender gets... have no fear... the UI will keep hordes of people away. It is like learning a weird foreign language. Only people who have spent a really long time studying it and using it say it is "intuitive." ANYTHING seems intuitive after spending years learning it. No other UI is that problematic.

I have taught a good handful of people Blender, not only had they never even used it before, English was very poor to non existent. And I was able to teach each one of these artists very quickly. A matter of hours not even days or weeks. And one for one, artists, who have only used Maya before, adapted to Blender quite easily. Not only that, 90 percent of them preferred modeling in Blender over Maya.

If you care to read this entire thread a lot of ground has been covered pretty much from all angles.

But just regarding the training side of it. I was actually surprised. I assumed people who said Blender was so far different than Maya and could never be excepted in studios, had actually tried to train people and that is what got them this opinion.

But this seems not to be true. Not from my experience anyway. I am equally proficient in Maya as well as Blender when it comes to Modeling. And some things I will take over to Blender to model because of the tool set there. And in a studio, here for me. It makes more sense to train guys in Blender because of the price point - for modeling. And that takes away Maya seats from AD right there.

And again, not to beat a horse to death here. But this is not a question of what will happen in the industry. It has already happened. You can make all of the claims you want, but, the statistics already are there. Blender is being used and it is having an impact and no, for a whole lot of reasons it will never take over Maya in an animation pipeline. That is just a silly notion. But it does not have to. And this thread is not making the claim that it will.

However, Gooseberry will change this perception for a lot of smaller studios. There will be new animation tools added which will start to be more attractive.

This thread is merely pointing to an industry trend which is on the rise and asks the question how will LightWave respond. So far, now we have Modo Indie as well. No LightWave Indie. Nothing. I have been posting links as I get them to track this trend. And already, this trend has continued even since starting this thread.

But to go on I will just be repeating myself. Covered all of this already.

Chernoby
12-16-2014, 12:34 PM
Surrealist, I'm just saying Blender's UI is problematic for many (and a commonly complained about issue). Maybe not for you but for a lot of people it is. This is not "up for debate." It is a fact well-documented across the internet. Last November Blender even formed a special team to address the "much debated issue" of their UI: http://www.blendernation.com/2013/11/18/blender-foundation-announces-user-interface-team/

bpritchard, I agree. The UI will not keep everyone away (I was exaggerating of course) but with all Blender offers at no cost it should be absolutely dominating the market. I also think the open-source stigma is dissolving, almost reversing imo. Almost everyone I know only uses and supports open-source of all kinds (Open Office, Mozilla, many are turning to Linux for workstation, web hosts mainly use Linux, GIMP, Blender, Audacious, etc.). It might take time for studios to catch up to the trend but I think there is no stopping it.

Surrealist.
12-16-2014, 01:12 PM
Surrealist, I'm just saying Blender's UI is problematic for many (and a commonly complained about issue). Maybe not for you but for a lot of people it is. This is not "up for debate." It is a fact well-documented across the internet. Last November Blender even formed a special team to address the "much debated issue" of their UI: http://www.blendernation.com/2013/11/18/blender-foundation-announces-user-interface-team/


Yeah I was there through all of that. But the reality is, none of the proposed changes will affect what people perceive as the issues that Blender has. And I was there though all of the threads that popped up. I listened to what people were saying and I learned that mostly, people had no clue what they were talking about. They were either complaining about things that are not true or had misconceptions. All of these things have been brought to the table and are being examined. Very few if any of Andrew's changes are going to be used because he failed to do the proper research in the first place - which he later learned and admitted. Getting all of that feedback from the internet was useless. Mainly for the reasons I just stated. He admitted that, after all. And even his proposed changes would do nothing to address what people seemed to think the problem was.

And yeah, what came out of it was a concerted effort to work on the interface. Good things have come of it so far and more changes are welcome. But this is not what is stopping Blender. I know this because I work with it every day along side other products. And I teach it. And I can tell you the things that will stop Blender from being adopted. And it ain't the interface. Not by a long shot. That is like saying the reason people don't use Zbrush is because of the interface... it is a red herring at best. This is something that hits home with me each time I open up 3D Max. I have no idea how to get around in that program. Nor did I know my way around LightWave or Blender or XSI or Maya when I first started. To Learn 3D Max I'd have to start all over on the interface. There are almost no standards across any of the programs I use. XSI, Maya, Blender, LightWave, Zbrush, Mudbox etc. Really. I am still looking for the standards everyone is talking about. No one has presented any. That leaves Right Click select. Which is the only one you can make a case about. Everything else is the same as any app. Meaning, they are all different. Not the same.

But this thread is not about this debate. You can make the case all you want. But it won't change this trend. It does not change the fact that enough people already use Blender - interface problems or not - to have an impact. And this will increase. So I don't see the reason to go on and on about this point. It is a non-issue.

Chernoby
12-16-2014, 01:26 PM
Yeah I was there through all of that. But the reality is, none of the proposed changes will affect what people perceive as the issues that Blender has. And I was there though all of the threads that popped up. I listened to what people were saying and I learned that mostly, people had no clue what they were talking about. They were either complaining about things that are not true or had misconceptions. All of these things have been brought to the table and are being examined. Very few if any of Andrew's changes are going to be used because he failed to do the proper research in the first place - which he later learned and admitted. Getting all of that feedback from the internet was useless. Mainly for the reasons I just stated. He admitted that, after all. And even his proposed changes would do nothing to address what people seemed to think the problem was.

And yeah, what came out of it was a concerted effort to work on the interface. Good things have come of it so far and more changes are welcome. But this is not what is stopping Blender. I know this because I work with it every day along side other products. And I teach it. And I can tell you the things that will stop Blender from being adopted. And it ain't the interface. Not by a long shot. That is like saying the reason people don't use Zbrush is because of the interface... it is a red herring at best. This is something that hits home with me each time I open up 3D Max. I have no idea how to get around in that program. Nor did I know my way around LightWave or Blender or XSI or Maya when I first started. To Learn 3D Max I'd have to start all over on the interface. There are almost no standards across any of the programs I use. XSI, Maya, Blender, LightWave, Zbrush, Mudbox etc. Really. I am still looking for the standards everyone is talking about. No one has presented any. That leaves Right Click select. Which is the only one you can make a case about. Everything else is the same as any app. Meaning, they are all different. Not the same.

But this thread is not about this debate. You can make the case all you want. But it won't change this trend. It does not change the fact that enough people already use Blender - interface problems or not - to have an impact. And this will increase. So I don't see the reason to go on and on about this point. It is a non-issue.

You have a lot to say about a non-issue.

jasonwestmas
12-16-2014, 01:48 PM
I find myself NOT using the programs that are less customize-able because I find them irritating and less efficient to use. So the default UI being annoying is not necessarily a deal breaker for me. More of a deal breaker is the inflexibility and non-interactivity of the tools in the way that they work with each other. I don't think that familiarity should trump the flexibility and interactivity of the tools.

Surrealist.
12-16-2014, 03:12 PM
You have a lot to say about a non-issue.

I do. But here, I have not even gotten deep into it. Barely scratching the surface. There is a lot to say about this issue. And the issues of standards, what exactly they are etc. This thread is simply not the place for a Blender vs the industry debate I don't think. Although people seem to want to come here and make the case that Blender will never be this or that. Well, OK. But it already is the degree that it has the effect it has on the industry. And Gooseberry will up the anti quite a bit. Because it will give Blender some updated animation tools and also raise awareness of Blender as an animation tool to start taking more serious.

A program like LightWave is going to have a more difficult time of it in the next 2 years if all they do is continue with a business as usual in my opinion. And the writing is clearly on the wall.

Chernoby
12-16-2014, 06:45 PM
I do. But here, I have not even gotten deep into it. Barely scratching the surface. There is a lot to say about this issue. And the issues of standards, what exactly they are etc. This thread is simply not the place for a Blender vs the industry debate I don't think. Although people seem to want to come here and make the case that Blender will never be this or that. Well, OK. But it already is the degree that it has the effect it has on the industry. And Gooseberry will up the anti quite a bit. Because it will give Blender some updated animation tools and also raise awareness of Blender as an animation tool to start taking more serious.

A program like LightWave is going to have a more difficult time of it in the next 2 years if all they do is continue with a business as usual in my opinion. And the writing is clearly on the wall.

Gooseberry looks and sounds dumb, I don't think a movie that sounds that dumb will impact anything. It sounds like the Blender UI designers got to name the movie.

Surrealist.
12-16-2014, 08:15 PM
lol!

I love it.

If nothing else, at least some levity!

Cheers for that! :D

chikega
12-16-2014, 10:45 PM
Now Dingleberry might be silly :)

allabulle
12-17-2014, 04:41 AM
I could be mistaken but I think the actual name of the film is not Gooseberry, the project [of doing the film] is.

safetyman
12-17-2014, 05:37 AM
@Chernoby: Have you used Blender recently? I don't mean open it up, scratch your head and say "this is a mess", then close it. I'm talking about actually trying a tutorial on YouTube or some such (there are literally thousands), actually trying to get something accomplished. The truth is, you should be amazed at how easy it is and if you're not, then you have software issues that go beyond a "weird" interface. Anyone who has used other 3d programs to any extent should have zero problems getting Blender to jump through hoops.

@Surrealist: You are exactly right on your points. The reason more folks don't use Blender is not because of the UI. However, that gap is closing quickly and I'm glad I've been on the Blendwagon for the last 4-5 years now. It's getting exciting and I can't wait for what lies ahead.

As for Gooseberry... there are already a couple of things coming out in the next version that may (or may not) be a direct result of that team. One of which that's already been mentioned on these forums is the new Grease Pencil features. Looks amazing. So don't diss Goosebumpy, geeseflockly, whatever, yet. Like Surrealist intended starting this thread -- exciting things are in store and I'm staying tuned. Everyone else, hide and watch.

allabulle
12-17-2014, 06:02 AM
I bought a couple of inexpensive tutorials on CGCookie and I was quite surprised at how easy it was to delve into Blender while doing some pretty fast modelling and animating. The interface wasn't an issue at all. Well, not more than using any other software anyway. I found it was not without logic and the interface made sense. Other applications use some other paradigm for the UI and data management, manipulation and input, but the basics are somewhat the same. Once the paradigm is understood, it's no big deal at all. And it takes a few minutes. Practice is only needed to be fluent.

I use Blender mostly as a plug-in to LightWave and to export to other renderers (mainly Thea). But I find myself more and more doing things directly there, as I get more confident. It's really a nice piece of software and in my experience complements LightWave (and vice-versa) quite well. If you have a couple of afternoons, by all means try it.

Surrealist.
12-17-2014, 08:45 AM
Yeah, like I was saying, I get people up and running in a few hours, one on one. Mostly because English as second language. Otherwise I would have done it all with tutorials on the net. But even still I used a combination and one for one, people who used Maya before stepped right into using Blender. Most preferred it. And I think something like 1n 10 preferred Maya still.

But you see these stories don't matter. They pale by comparison to the "hoards of people on the net" who all agree Blender sucks. Therefore it is true. These are facts we can rely on. Hearsay and rumors hold so much more sway with people than actual facts presented from direct experience from more than just casual users.

The fact of the matter is, if you opened a thread and titled it "why don't you use Maya" or "LightWave" or any other software for that matter and you'd get the people coming out of the woodwork who hate Maya and LightWave or whatever software you put in the title. And all the reasoning in the world will not change people's mind.

Luckily there are choices and people can choose.

And this is why as Blender's tools increase, more people will choose it and software companies will get progressively more nervous. They should. And many are responding already with indie versions. I am fairly certain that these versions would not exist if not for Blender.

To be fair it is probably a combination of Blender and a changing economy as well as expanding market for 3D.

Chernoby
12-17-2014, 09:33 AM
Surrealist, :D

Chikega, Project Dingleberry was the original name. They changed it because it sounded too "edgy."

Safetyman, I do use Blender. For a lot of things including rigging, animation, and smoke/fire. It might even replace my non-linear editing programs in the future (and after effects). But it took me A LONG time to get the flow down. I don't mean just memorizing buttons but doing basic things like positioning objects that in every other program was not an issue at all. If I have to read or view a tutorial on how to place objects, the interface is NOT intuitive (by definition).

*WARNING: Do not stir the Blender hornets nest! The Blenderers will swarm!*

And yes, the GUI is still clunky and alien compared to other programs. If the fan boys can't understand that, then I can't understand the fan boys for not understanding. This from the first post taken from googling "Blender GUI bad"... OP is HFUY on Blender.org:"Blender's UI is terrible. Really terrible. Pan-galactic gargle-blastingly bad. So bad, King Leonidas would have kicked it into the well."

This from beginning of this post by KurtF: "'Developers make Blender for Blender Users' - translation: their software does not conform to GUI standards established by Macintosh and Windows (and Linux!) GUI's and you either embrace that, struggle learning how to use it (and struggle every time you switch back to a regular, conforming piece of software), or you don't."

Further, it IS NOT standard and it was INTENTIONALLY DESIGNED that way. This is not my opinion, I'm just relaying what the creator of Blender has said many times. He has said he took a revolutionary and different approach creating Blender from the ground up.

It's a great tool. I LOVE the tool. If I could I would marry Blender and become the stepfather of Project Dingleberry, raising it as my own.

Even in this very post at the beginning people are complaining about the GUI. I'm not anti-Blender, I just can't call a blue sky green because I am a fan of the color.

Surrealist.
12-17-2014, 09:59 AM
Interesting. I don't consider myself a fanboy of anything. The only reason I would not add C4D and Houdini to my tools would probably be just plane time. Not to mention money. I have an interest in 3D Max as well. I actually own it, but don't have the time to dedicate to it at the moment. But I am sure I'd love some of those tools. The thing is, I open 3D Max and I am just as clueless as to what to do as I was the first time I opened Blender.

So when I give an opinion it is from my experience with software A compared to my experience with software B. And from my experience Blender was not any more difficult for me than Maya. In fact the most difficult transition I ever made was from LightWave 5.0 to 8.0. It was like another world.

And when I started with Blender is was not the current interface it was 2.49 which by some accounts is worse.

And it is not my style to make statements like "well all kinds of people think...." because frankly I don't care what a lot of people say. I only care about what is in front of me and I make my own evaluation so I personally consider statements like this useless. That is just me.

Even in a debate such as this where we are discussing what impact that Blender has on the industry or will have.

For two reasons.

1) It already has. People already are using it despite what is said. and...
2) People gravitate towards software that gives them results. Primarily. Not by how hard it is to learn. Sure it is a factor. But not to people most interested in getting results.

And Zbrush is a perfect example of the willingness to fight through an interface design to make it to the other side and see things the developers way.

I think you bring up a great point about the design of the interface. I think that is valid.

Because Blender is designed to get you over this initial hump and to the other side of something that is designed from the ground up to give you a particular experience. Much in the same way as Zbrush does.

And this is the point I made countless times in all those other threads. The things people complain about are the things that are good about Blender. They are the things that are the least familiar to them - sure.

But these are unfortunately the things that will not change. And they were never proposed and are not being proposed as changes.

Because of 2) above when people see project dinglehackle or whatever it is called, they will see that the is hope of getting a result from animation in Blender. And it will change the game for the indie studios still hanging on to tools like Maya.

Watch and see. I am fairly certain this is what will happen.

I am one of those. Still hanging on to Maya. And I probably will stick with it for a long time. I actually enjoy using it. But it will be nice to know I can expand my studio with more seats on the animation side if Blender comes of age. I'd love it if that happened. But I think it will never replace Maya or me completely.

But I think people looking to start a business are going to give it more than a passing glance at that point.

bpritchard
12-17-2014, 10:19 AM
bpritchard, I agree. The UI will not keep everyone away (I was exaggerating of course) but with all Blender offers at no cost it should be absolutely dominating the market. I also think the open-source stigma is dissolving, almost reversing imo. Almost everyone I know only uses and supports open-source of all kinds (Open Office, Mozilla, many are turning to Linux for workstation, web hosts mainly use Linux, GIMP, Blender, Audacious, etc.). It might take time for studios to catch up to the trend but I think there is no stopping it.

Most definitely true. I will say that I find myself fighting w/OpenSource from time to time. One of my companies tried REALLY hard to use Open Office... and eventually just ended up going back to MS. There are always a few things missing imo. :)But i do agree the adoption rate is getting better... i just think when it comes to "professional" software, people sometimes maybe feel they need to pay for it? I dunno.. just spitballing.

Anyways, someone else made a point about customization in software being frustrating.. and I can really agree w/that. One of things things I like about LW and Maya (those are the 2 i've used extensively) is that.. out of the box.. they make sense. Yes you can addon and extend to your hearts content, but you don't have to to get started. I do feel that blender suffers from lack of a good base setup (that makes sense) outside of the UI. There are a TON of great extensions and addons.. but you have to go get 'em. Plus the level of customization is really built for the avid user... and again doesn't sit easily with those trying to learn how to build a box.

Ernest
12-17-2014, 10:40 AM
Because of 2) above when people see project dinglehackle or whatever it is called, they will see that the is hope of getting a result from animation in Blender. And it will change the game for the indie studios still hanging on to tools like Maya.

As long as it's successful.
If the project fails or ends up looking sub-par, I can see a lot of smug haters blaming Blender, even though projects of this scale crash all the time, regardless of the VFX pipeline.

Surrealist.
12-17-2014, 10:54 AM
I think it will be divided as all of the other films have been. By track record alone, it will certainly look nice. Story-wise they have been all over the map. So I am not expecting much there. But I think it will adequately showcase the tools. And professionals will look at that not at how much they like it.

safetyman
12-17-2014, 04:12 PM
2 things really stand out to me and are the reasons I use Blender quite a lot:

1) There are a couple of really nice "3rd party" SVG export tools that I use on a daily basis, and the next version of Blender will have native SVG export.
2 )The modeling tools are the best that I've used, and I've had experience with every major 3d software you can think of, and probably some that you haven't.

It makes me chuckle when people bash the interface or the UI or whatever. When customers see me whizzing around and creating things from scratch on the fly, they ask me "Hey, what software is that?" I don't mind at all if something thinks Blender is difficult to use or that it's "not Maya".. big deal. I get my job done, quickly and efficiently and that's all I care about. That and my company didn't have to spend thousands of dollars on upgrades or subscriptions.

jeric_synergy
12-17-2014, 04:57 PM
There are many things in Blender's modeling kit I lust after: interactive arrays for one.

Surrealist.
12-17-2014, 07:59 PM
Yeah the modifiers are something I always come back to for modeling. Nondestructive editing and so on. Keystroke workflow is also very quick.

But for character animation tools. Maya all the way for me. Nothing has come close. Not even on the same page in my opinion.

Sculpting tools, weight painting and painting tools, still have much to be desired so I don't use Blender for that anymore. But they seem to get continuous improvement which is nice too.

Surrealist.
08-12-2015, 06:04 AM
So it has started:

http://blenderartists.org/forum/showthread.php?378426-Cosmos-Laundromat-First-Cycle-Official-Blender-Foundation-release

Lots to argue about and so on.

However one thing is for sure. This software is coming along and the rendering has improved. The animation and dynamics are coming along well.


https://youtu.be/Y-rmzh0PI3c

tonyrizo2003
08-12-2015, 12:50 PM
wow that looks great!!

allabulle
08-12-2015, 01:20 PM
It looks really well.

safetyman
08-13-2015, 05:22 AM
Seems a lot of people have a problem with the theme and the (1) cuss word. Really? Yeah, let's forget about the beautiful artwork that those talented folks spent many hours on to promote Blender and focus on a word that most of us hear multiple times a day. "Oh my god! I sat down with my kids to watch this and they heard a cuss word! Ahhhhh the sky is falling!!! Oh the humanity!"

allabulle
08-13-2015, 06:05 AM
Focussing in the non technical stuff like words and story is not for a software forum, I'd say. It seems a tad unprofessional and out of focus. Those forums have a tendency to it, though, in my opinion. I'd like to find a forum less noisy to discuss about that software. Maybe the Blender Network (I think they implemented it a while ago) has such forums. A pity, really.

I could be wrong, mind you. But each time I try to follow a thread there it quickly ends up being a bit childish and unprofessional. I'll give it another go, maybe. But yes, a new movie comes out, it really looks remarkably well done (at least at a first glimpse) and there you go, comments abound that have nothing to do with the software or the skills involved in the production of the film. At least here the crazy threads are obvious and finite and the general tone of all other threads is helpful, professional and to the point. Mostly, anyway. :)

Surrealist.
08-13-2015, 06:12 AM
lol

The threads are bring infiltrated by Autodesk plants charged with the task to deflect from the real issue. Blender is closing in on their market. Same guys who snicker to themselves when they try and start rumors like "industry standards and conventions" knowing full well that no one will actually do the research to find out if there really are any (which there aren't). But listen to some troll instead. It is all just a big online conspiracy to take Blender down. And we all know that if they were not working so hard to topple Blender, Blender would be used in all of the studios around the world and Autodesk would go bankrupt.

It is not public opinion about Blender it is the Autodesk trolls infiltrating the internet.

I got inside information that this is so compelling that Dan Brown is going to make it the subject of his next novel.

allabulle
08-13-2015, 06:53 AM
:D

Blender it's widely used around. Even if not publicized much. For this and that, here and there, but it's getting there. Besides hobbyists, I can see more and more people using it for one reason or another albeit rarely as the main 3D application. But I keep finding it as part of workflows and pipelines besides mine. I'm using it more than before but also not as my core application.

Still, conspiracy is fun! And it will increase as Blender grows, I suppose.

Films like the Cosmos Laundromat shows that it's already there. Could improve, but it's there.

Surrealist.
08-13-2015, 08:18 AM
Yeah and I think that was my original point in starting the thread.

But we are not even there yet. This is just a trailer.

And serious production places won't just look at a film and decide to use a software. It will get close inspection. And the Blender Foundation has to deliver on their promise of finishing things off rather than leaving them in half baked status after a film. It is not enough for Blender to be a workable tool as long as you have in-house programers to assist. Those tools need to be fully baked and ready for people outside of that bubble. And this has been one of the main drawbacks of Blender.

But it is something they see, and apparently want to fix. But it takes resources. And they are not doing well in that department so things go slow.

But overall there is a substantial improvement.

And that starts to make companies like Autodesk a little nervous.

Which in turn is good for us all around.

eon5
08-13-2015, 06:06 PM
It also seems like Blender didn't benefit much from development during the project. For sure there were some things like a handful of Cycles optimizations and hair improvements, but at the end of the day Cycles' big issues (memory use and deformation blur, no rendertime displacement) remain and the hair improvements only put a band aid on a broken and outdated system that really needs to be replaced. (http://blenderartists.org/forum/showthread.php?378426-Cosmos-Laundromat-First-Cycle-Official-Blender-Foundation-release&p=2919715&viewfull=1#post2919715)

i agree

Surrealist.
08-13-2015, 06:31 PM
Yeah it is kinda sad in that respect. I do remember something some time back about a decision to not do a full replacement of the system as originally intended due to time constraints. And that is the main issue. They always have lofty ideas that have to be cut back due to lack of resources.

But this is what comes with the territory with any low budget software. That a software this good and this capable is available for free and the people who create it actually get paid and also paid to make movies is kinda remarkable.

safetyman
08-14-2015, 05:10 AM
If you look at the Blender roadmap (2.8 and beyond), they are working towards replacing the hair/particle tools with a node-based system that will break backward compatibility. A bold move but a necessary one that will make a huge difference hopefully.

pinkmouse
08-14-2015, 05:13 AM
If you look at the Blender roadmap (2.8 and beyond), they are working towards replacing the hair/particle tools with a node-based system that will break backward compatibility. A bold move but a necessary one that will make a huge difference hopefully.

Hopefully one that LW3DG can learn from.

Surrealist.
08-14-2015, 07:21 AM
If you look at the Blender roadmap (2.8 and beyond), they are working towards replacing the hair/particle tools with a node-based system that will break backward compatibility. A bold move but a necessary one that will make a huge difference hopefully.

Here's to hoping that they can finish that. I thought Ton's post was encouraging.

Surrealist.
08-15-2015, 08:49 PM
I find this quote interesting:
http://blenderartists.org/forum/showthread.php?378426-Cosmos-Laundromat-First-Cycle-Official-Blender-Foundation-release&p=2920935&viewfull=1#post2920935


The feedback at Siggraph was overwhelmingly positive. We got invited to screen it to some of the animators at DreamWorks yesterday, and they were all raving about how much they liked it.

Of course they will all go back to their respective pipelines where they work. But what happens when some of them get fired or quit? Or start up a small project? Sure, many will stick to the tried and true. But how many will have this indelible impression left on them and then decide that they can get by with Blender?

It is just something interesting to watch. And with Cycles now showing up developed for Poser, I think it is, even though the Blender license is different, there is still nothing stopping a mid-range studio from deciding to toss some development dollars Blender's way. And enter into a partnership with the Blender Foundation to collaborate on Blender with a clear mutual benefit. Even with having the development work they do being open to the competition, starting with a full fledged code base and working application, and also a group of developers they can collaborate with who are externally funded could be enough to make it worthwhile - in their estimation.

This could be the kind of thing that tips the scale. And another potential benefit to a project with the scope of Gooseberry.

Meanwhile Maya development rages on, almost as if to say, there is no way they can stand still. The stakes are way too high.

Just interesting to muse on.

tischbein3
08-16-2015, 05:24 AM
It is just something interesting to watch.
Surely is.



And with Cycles now showing up developed for Poser, I think it is, even though the Blender license is different, there is still nothing stopping a mid-range studio from deciding to toss some development dollars Blender's way. And enter into a partnership with the Blender Foundation to collaborate on Blender with a clear mutual benefit. Even with having the development work they do being open to the competition, starting with a full fledged code base and working application, and also a group of developers they can collaborate with who are externally funded could be enough to make it worthwhile - in their estimation.
Thats the point were the blender foundation still has no real mechanism in place. Look at the sponsoring epic has made, and how little it
really benefited them in return. Or how many people do want to provide even small snippets of code still get rejected.
Sure this keeps blenders code more or less clean and manageable, but also wastes a lot of ressources.

The only time where collaboration seems to work perfectly is by open sourcing libraries wich then are
integrated in blender (with code contributed back to the libraries). Maybe they can establish better ways of
direct communication with the studios / contributions through this ? Not sure.

Anyway nice movie.

Surrealist.
08-16-2015, 07:11 AM
Yeah good points.

I have never heard of anyone doing it. I would assume a studio would have to make the move not the other way around.

Greenlaw
08-16-2015, 11:51 AM
Back when I was on staff with the Box at R&H, the person who represented the India crew showed me some of the animation they created using Blender. At the time, I think they mainly used it for regional commercial productions and I thought it looked great. The group also created a bunch of training videos for Blender which we had access to in the Box. Sigh! I wish I kept that stuff but I guess it might be outdated now.

The Box would sometimes use Blender to generate elements for vfx. For example, one artist used it to generate animated 'wet maps' and other rain effects that were used in LightWave and Fusion for the 'Devil May Cry' cinematic we did. And I dabbled with it on a couple of jobs for smoke fx and fracturing objects, but I wound using TFD and Modeler because of limited time for R&D...plus I already knew how to do this stuff in LightWave anyway. :p

R&H's Features dept. in Los Angeles didn't use Blender because they were all about developing their own proprietary in-house animation and compositing tools (i.e, they didn't need it.) That said, I'm sure they paid attention to Blender development as I know some of the programmers were involved with other open source graphics/animation software projects at one time or another.

Just some Blender/studio trivia I thought I'd share.

G.

Surrealist.
08-17-2015, 03:45 AM
Interesting stuff. Thanks for sharing. :)

Surrealist.
08-17-2015, 03:54 AM
And I don't know where it is buried in which thread. But I have mentioned before about the some of the clients I have worked for. One company completely relies on Blender where they do all of the set up and scripting to port the models over to Ogre. Both Blender and Ogre serve as host apps for a ton of scripting and programming that they do where they have created a flight simulator from scratch which they released about a year ago on the hobby market. 3+ Years in the making. I created all of the models for them.

http://www.accurc.com/

tischbein3
08-17-2015, 03:20 PM
Nice project.


One company completely relies on Blender where they do all of the set up and scripting to port the models over to Ogre. Both Blender and Ogre serve as host apps for a ton of scripting and programming that they do where they have created a flight simulator from scratch which they released about a year ago on the hobby market.
I think the possebillity to expand / modify python based exporters, is one important, but not so often spoken about, feature in blender. Especially for the indie game market.

Surrealist.
08-17-2015, 10:34 PM
Yeah it is. And why so many people are screaming for scripting in Modo indie which has this feature turned off - AFAIK.

You can do this in other apps as well of course, but it is hard for an indie developer to argue with free.

visualbug
08-26-2015, 03:19 PM
Back when I was on staff with the Box at R&H, the person who represented the India crew showed me some of the animation they created using Blender. At the time, I think they mainly used it for regional commercial productions and I thought it looked great. The group also created a bunch of training videos for Blender which we had access to in the Box. Sigh! I wish I kept that stuff but I guess it might be outdated now.

The Box would sometimes use Blender to generate elements for vfx. For example, one artist used it to generate animated 'wet maps' and other rain effects that were used in LightWave and Fusion for the 'Devil May Cry' cinematic we did. And I dabbled with it on a couple of jobs for smoke fx and fracturing objects, but I wound using TFD and Modeler because of limited time for R&D...plus I already knew how to do this stuff in LightWave anyway. :p

R&H's Features dept. in Los Angeles didn't use Blender because they were all about developing their own proprietary in-house animation and compositing tools (i.e, they didn't need it.) That said, I'm sure they paid attention to Blender development as I know some of the programmers were involved with other open source graphics/animation software projects at one time or another.

Just some Blender/studio trivia I thought I'd share.

G.

interesting trivia!
Another one: programmers in naughty dog and pixar, use blender to test rapid tools ;)

jeric_synergy
08-26-2015, 06:57 PM
What are "rapid tools"? Prototype tool designs?

visualbug
08-26-2015, 08:52 PM
What are "rapid tools"? Prototype tool designs?

if you want to create a new tool, feature or test plugins what ever, they need to test it first, so blender is so small and fast to work with (and open source) that can be easy to test and implement something new, without to go to the main APP, says maya or max to do tests.........

lightscape
08-26-2015, 08:55 PM
Can this be moved to the thirdparty section? Its becoming a Blender ad thread.

Surrealist.
08-27-2015, 01:55 AM
if you want to create a new tool, feature or test plugins what ever, they need to test it first, so blender is so small and fast to work with (and open source) that can be easy to test and implement something new, without to go to the main APP, says maya or max to do tests.........

Not sure I am following this though. Why would this be an advantage? Do you have some links to these people talking about this specifically? I can not imagine how it would be an advantage to write a tool in Blender that you planned to use in another app.

Of course I am not a programmer. Maybe I need to be enlightened. ;) I mean with specifics though. Not opinions. Do you have any links?

lightscape
08-27-2015, 02:10 AM
lol

The threads are bring infiltrated by Autodesk plants charged with the task to deflect from the real issue. Blender is closing in on their market. Same guys who snicker to themselves when they try and start rumors like "industry standards and conventions" knowing full well that no one will actually do the research to find out if there really are any (which there aren't). But listen to some troll instead. It is all just a big online conspiracy to take Blender down. And we all know that if they were not working so hard to topple Blender, Blender would be used in all of the studios around the world and Autodesk would go bankrupt.

It is not public opinion about Blender it is the Autodesk trolls infiltrating the internet.

I got inside information that this is so compelling that Dan Brown is going to make it the subject of his next novel.

You have no facts or numbers to backup your statements. This is all fiction from a freelancers pov.
What's the point of this thread besides to promote blender in a lw section?

Surrealist.
08-27-2015, 05:28 AM
lol yeah. I got that information from the usual credible sources. Someone spouting off on the internet:

http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?143183-Watch-for-Project-Gooseberry&p=1440341&viewfull=1#post1440341

Though it was not clear if he was trying to be funny or using that as a cover up for the truth. He didn't use one of these. :D

hmmm.... interesting.

We will never know.

You know the old phrase "He'd tell you but then He'd have to..."

Leaving the last part off in case it gets quoted out of context in the future and sent to Interpol and interpreted as internet terrorism or something. Many Interpol members by the way, as I have come to know, own stock in Autodesk.

I am not being paranoid it is just, you know, you can never be too careful.

And "as well all know", Audodesk trolls are listening... and with the new revelation about ties to Interpol... (backed by the fact that someone said so on the internet) well, just saying ;)

So tread this subject lightly. ;)

jeric_synergy
08-27-2015, 08:30 AM
Uhhhh, I don't see how a thread with "Project Gooseberry" could NOT be about Blender.

Surrealist.
08-27-2015, 02:26 PM
Well yeah the main point of this thread was to talk about how this project would affect Blender's status in the industry and how that in turn will affect LightWave. Hence the title.. "Watch for project Gooseberry".

And even in the beginning stages it is having a positive effect.

They got invited to Pixar and screened the film there. Pretty cool man.

https://gooseberry.blender.org/team-on-tour-siggraph-dreamworks-google-pixar/

Of course you know Blender is not going to take over the industry. Even if people want to think that all Blender users think this. They don't. A bunch of kids do I think. But they are just kids don't know any better. They do not reflect all of the Blender community. And certainly they do not represent the core professionals and studios - including Blender Institute - that are using Blender.

And back to the point of this thread was, how will the changing landscape of 3D tools change how LightWave is not only developed, but how it is delivered?

It is a profound thing to consider. And this project just seemed to me to be a good measuring tool for this. It is somewhat arbitrary. But a good reference point. And I also cited a lot of other factors I think have had an influence and will continue. Completely aside from Blender.

So I think we are only part way there. But it is showing signs.

Also there are two other apps on the rise.

David Ikeda is moving gradually toward an alpha phase on his modeling app.

And Syflex has a new app they are developing.

Meanwhile Modo indie is about to release 901.

So, again back to the point of this thread. How is LW 3D Group going to react to this?

So far they have kept LW under 1K and just recently offered a killer bundle for new people.

I wonder what else is in store around the corner?

jasonwestmas
08-28-2015, 11:48 AM
I'll just make a few points here: I don't know if dropping lightwave out out of the $1500 price category is necessarily a good thing. It might keep lightwave's head above water for a while longer. Bundles are good for getting attention but really these are just superficial adjustments to get slightly larger bursts of cash into funding lightwave. Again we are forced to ask: where are the fundamental changes to lightwave, the changes that will eventually make lightwave a "must have" piece of software instead of a way to just save some money?

Surrealist.
08-28-2015, 12:39 PM
LightWave will always be a way to save money for people that can get away with that. Same as Blender. If you can get away with using it, it is hard to argue with free. LightWave's legacy has always been - with the exception of a very brief time perhaps - a software that offered a cheap solution. In 1993 when I first saved up some cash for LightWave with a Toaster dongle it was a bargain to get something that would do 3D for 10-20K after I was done finding a solution for recording and playing back animation with the PAR and other hardware I needed. At ILM they had already made Jurassic park. We had nothing close to that in LW as far as animation. But the price tag for that was way out of reach for most people. After you invested in an SGI machine.... and so on.

And then after that, when the ILM Lasseter team was purchased by PIXAR they had already gone leaps and bounds over what LightWave could do on the high end. But at what price tag? Moving in to the time period with the first PC stand alone LW version came out and the first Pentium the price dropped again. But at this time the Lasseter team was at Pixar making Toy Story. So while you could argue that LightWave could do a lot at that point and was a quick and easy tool to use. It was and did. But no one was making Toy Story with it. By my recollection the rigging tools were not even quite up to the task yet. And we did not even have Subdivision Surfaces yet.

But there was a lot we could do. And it flourished on the TV market.

Moving up a decade by 2008 when there was competition most of the other apps were far more expensive. And even though LightWave had gone up in price for a while it came back down again to under 2K and I think has more or less been around 1.5K Since then, right? Well in that ballpark anyway.

And other apps dropped in price as well. But at the same time offering some high end features that LightWave still does not have - yet.

So anyways I think LightWave will always be a "must have" for some people. And as long as they keep improving it, it will expand its reach. And more people will realize they don't need the high end tools. A lot of people don't. And simply find LightWave a perfect fit. It does a lot of things reasonably well.

And I think this concept of the landscape changing with indie versions and all of that is something that is not going to go away. I don't think.

So the bigger question is can LightWave still improve, and offer the things it always has to some people, and yet offer something that competes with a Modo Indie, a Houdini Indie and of course, Blender?

I don't think it can keep chugging away, business as usual and ignore that market.

cresshead
08-28-2015, 01:24 PM
I liked the short movie released a few weeks back, good fur in that.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-rmzh0PI3c

visualbug
08-28-2015, 03:59 PM
Not sure I am following this though. Why would this be an advantage? Do you have some links to these people talking about this specifically? I can not imagine how it would be an advantage to write a tool in Blender that you planned to use in another app.

Of course I am not a programmer. Maybe I need to be enlightened. ;) I mean with specifics though. Not opinions. Do you have any links?

#1:
"I was introduced to Blender at Naughty Dog by one of the programmers there. They use it at Naughty Dog to test small things over in the ICE department (their high-end programmers). I started playing with it when they changed the interface to be more friendly (2.5 I think). It's a powerful little package"
http://blenderartists.org/forum/showthread.php?318268-Professional-Blender-Use

#2:
Blender Spotted in Age of Empires Development
http://www.blendernation.com/2015/04/18/blender-spotted-in-age-of-empires-development/

#3:
Captain America: The Winter Soldier
"He brought the shots into Blender - normally we work in Maya - and created a simulation where you could just drag the Helicarrier into the building at different angles in realtime and see how the pieces would crumble and how the entire wall would give way. And once the previs was approved, we handed off a techvis to the second unit director, and used our debris field for how that scene was shot.”"

http://www.fxguide.com/featured/captain-america-the-winter-soldier-reaching-new-heights/

#4:
"They use a large variety of software at Pixar, much of it custom. Blender is in the mix there, as far as I’m aware(there have been some tours around their offices showing Blender among maya and a bunch of in-house animation, lighting, and material editing packages.) "
https://gooseberry.blender.org/hello-and-good-luck-from-colin-levy-pixar/

#1 Bonus:
Blender used for Rooster Teeth's Red Vs Blue Series
http://www.blendernation.com/2015/08/26/blender-used-for-rooster-teeths-red-vs-blue-series/

#2 Bonus:
"We are trying to get a solid pipeline for exporting from Blender to UE4. So far things are going really well and we hope to see some cool stuff in the near future.”
http://www.cgchannel.com/2014/07/epic-games-funds-blender-development/

#3 Bonus: Gooseberry short film at Dreamworks and Pixar:
"During the show we were invited by Dreamworks animators to visit them on friday for lunch and a campus tour, and to screen the film in one of their viewing rooms. Six of the team took an extra week in the USA to visit San Francisco with invitations to visit Google and the Pixar Studios. They already had a 2 hourPixar tour yesterday. Today at noon the crew will attend Pixar again and present Cosmos Laundromat in the prestigious Presto Theater for the employees!"
https://gooseberry.blender.org/team-on-tour-siggraph-dreamworks-google-pixar/

Do you want me to continue ?? ;)

This is the POWER of USERS, LW Group are forgetting the most important part of any 3d Software company...........the one who buy, use and promote your software are the most important......

Ernest
08-28-2015, 04:37 PM
So while you could argue that LightWave could do a lot at that point and was a quick and easy tool to use. It was and did. But no one was making Toy Story with it.
True, but they were making Titanic with it at almost exactly that time. And it was being used to make Jimmy Neutron just a couple of years after.


#1:
"I was introduced to Blender at Naughty Dog by one of the programmers there. They use it at Naughty Dog to test small things over in the ICE department (their high-end programmers). I started playing with it when they changed the interface to be more friendly (2.5 I think).
Interesting. I do believe they are required by law to release that friendlier interface with all its source code publicly.

Surrealist.
08-28-2015, 04:51 PM
Ernest, thanks for those clarifications. I knew I was going to get a few things off a bit. I did not do any research for that, just all off the top of my head.

Yeah Titanic, that did not have character animation like Toy Story. But worth mentioning just the same. I see it as more in the vein of the kinds of things that were being done in TV. Special effects etc.

Jimmy Neutron though was not til 2001 and it was animated in Maya. I think they started using Messiah but moved over to Maya later.

Surrealist.
08-28-2015, 05:01 PM
@visualbug.

Lets just chalk it up to a misunderstanding. I was just trying to get my head around programming a tool in one app and when you plan to use it in another.

Your links and statements there are examples of Blender being used in the industry in various capacity, previs and testing, not programming specifically.

No worries. Nice list.

Thanks for taking the time with all of that. Very cools stuff. :)

Ernest
08-28-2015, 05:24 PM
Yeah Titanic, that did not have character animation like Toy Story.

Certainly not like Toy Story, but in an interview they mentioned that they were allowed to throw in some Lightwave people to swim along with the Softimage heroes. Pretty impressive, considering the tiny max vertex limit of 5.x and that you had to subdivide before counting vertices.
Yeah I don't remember when preproduction started for Jimmy Neutron but I remember it was a super long time in the making.

Surrealist.
08-28-2015, 05:39 PM
Yeah that's cool. I think I was just trying to stick with a general theme of price and feature comparisons to "high end tools" through history. Animation being the weakest point. All off the top of my head and it was not meant in any way to take away from the great things that have been done with LightWave. We should not forget 300 and Sin City if we are looking at some classics of the past. :)

Greenlaw
08-28-2015, 06:01 PM
According to these two sources, Jimmy Neutron was created entirely in LightWave 6 and Messiah. (Back then, I believe Messiah was still essentially a LightWave Plugin.)

http://www.animationartist.com/2002/01_jan/features/jimmyneutron_johndavis.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LightWave_3D

I don't see any reason to doubt these sources. I've worked with a couple of artists who worked on the film so I guess I could ask them. FYI, the TV series was animated with Maya.

Barnyard was animated in XSI but one of the modelers on that film told me they mainly used Lightwave for modeling.

G.

jasonwestmas
08-28-2015, 06:19 PM
LightWave will always be a way to save money for people that can get away with that. Same as Blender. If you can get away with using it, it is hard to argue with free. LightWave's legacy has always been - with the exception of a very brief time perhaps - a software that offered a cheap solution. In 1993 when I first saved up some cash for LightWave with a Toaster dongle it was a bargain to get something that would do 3D for 10-20K after I was done finding a solution for recording and playing back animation with the PAR and other hardware I needed. At ILM they had already made Jurassic park. We had nothing close to that in LW as far as animation. But the price tag for that was way out of reach for most people. After you invested in an SGI machine.... and so on.

And then after that, when the ILM Lasseter team was purchased by PIXAR they had already gone leaps and bounds over what LightWave could do on the high end. But at what price tag? Moving in to the time period with the first PC stand alone LW version came out and the first Pentium the price dropped again. But at this time the Lasseter team was at Pixar making Toy Story. So while you could argue that LightWave could do a lot at that point and was a quick and easy tool to use. It was and did. But no one was making Toy Story with it. By my recollection the rigging tools were not even quite up to the task yet. And we did not even have Subdivision Surfaces yet.

But there was a lot we could do. And it flourished on the TV market.

Moving up a decade by 2008 when there was competition most of the other apps were far more expensive. And even though LightWave had gone up in price for a while it came back down again to under 2K and I think has more or less been around 1.5K Since then, right? Well in that ballpark anyway.

And other apps dropped in price as well. But at the same time offering some high end features that LightWave still does not have - yet.

So anyways I think LightWave will always be a "must have" for some people. And as long as they keep improving it, it will expand its reach. And more people will realize they don't need the high end tools. A lot of people don't. And simply find LightWave a perfect fit. It does a lot of things reasonably well.

And I think this concept of the landscape changing with indie versions and all of that is something that is not going to go away. I don't think.

So the bigger question is can LightWave still improve, and offer the things it always has to some people, and yet offer something that competes with a Modo Indie, a Houdini Indie and of course, Blender?

I don't think it can keep chugging away, business as usual and ignore that market.

I've just realized we have had this conversation twice before. sorry about that ^.^

Surrealist.
08-28-2015, 08:13 PM
Jason I must be getting old. Sorry. I don't even realize when I am repeating myself.

Greenlaw, you are correct. It was LightWave/Messiah for the film and they moved to Maya for the TV series.

visualbug
08-28-2015, 10:12 PM
I am still asking myself why Newtek/LWGroup never bought messiah:studio, by that time, ( Jimmy Neutron times, I loved that movie ;) ) messiah integrated in lightwave could have been a game changer, that time in the past............in a galaxy far far away...........

how many users were asking for this that time? ;)

killer combination..........messiah rigging tools are awesome with usually no weight painting (I hate that) ...........

Still today, there is NO APP with the speed of realtime playback with animated characters in the market faster than messiah:studio.....
maybe Fori can sell Messiah to LWGroup cheaper today ;)

Surrealist: the one comment about pixar programmers testing in blender...... I read it a few months ago, but I did not find it, ;)

a quick question off topic : about the times with Messian:studio and lightwave, somebody knows why this never happened ?
and why they moved the production for the tv series to maya?? this was a missed opportunity for LW...........

back to the topic, sometimes in the market or users mind, is more about "perception rather than features"
maya is the standard, MODO is the "best and faster" modeler in the market, maybe is true or maybe not, maybe you can get result faster in other softwares, but perception.................we live in a matrix............. ;)

This is why I said about a official LWGroup support VFX short film..........
the result after gooseberry project:
"this short film was made entirely in blender?? "
"was this all done in blender? "

can be a marketing machine for any software company........unreal is doing this, trying to sell the game engine as a realtime for animation movies and tv shorts..............so yes, .................is working........

Ernest
08-28-2015, 10:30 PM
a quick question about the times with Messian:studio and lightwave, somebody knows why this never happened ?

One can guess that, with the speed of Messiah and the promise of the Arnold renderer, they expected to take over the world with their product. Those expectations would have easily priced them out of Newtek's reach.

Surrealist.
08-29-2015, 08:37 AM
@visualbug

My source on Jimmy Neutron is here:

http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=17462


On the film we had a pipeline where we Modeled, and Textured in Lightwave, moved to Messiah for Animation, and then went back to Lightwave for Lighting and Rendering. Messiah worked well for us, but it was built upon Lightwave's Panels interface, and that interface is just not designed to support such a large app as Messiah. Load times became reaaaaaaaally long. We actually had to develop internal apps to work with the Messiah .fxs files directly so we wouldn't have to open up Messiah and load the scene just to make certain changes.

It was uncertain when the stand-alone version of Messiah would become available, and on a TV schedule and budget we had to move through material much faster. It was determined that we likely couldn't make the deadlines with the plugin version of Messiah.

So for the TV series we replaced the Messiah part of our pipeline with Maya. We still Model, Texture, Light, and Render with Lightwave. We Animate in Maya. And we have a ton of assets from the film to be used in the TV series, and they are all in Lightwave format.

jasonwestmas
08-30-2015, 07:58 AM
I am still asking myself why Newtek/LWGroup never bought messiah:studio, by that time, ( Jimmy Neutron times, I loved that movie ;) ) messiah integrated in lightwave could have been a game changer, that time in the past............in a galaxy far far away...........

how many users were asking for this that time? ;)

killer combination..........messiah rigging tools are awesome with usually no weight painting (I hate that) ...........

Still today, there is NO APP with the speed of realtime playback with animated characters in the market faster than messiah:studio.....
maybe Fori can sell Messiah to LWGroup cheaper today ;)




I don't know but messiah's tools are what I wish lightwave layout would eventually become. But I don't see that happening. To stay on topic. . . this integration of messiah of course would be a great way to compete with Blender and Modo.

jeric_synergy
08-30-2015, 09:58 AM
. . . this integration of messiah of course would be a great way to compete with Blender and Modo.
Didn't Messiah merge w/something else already?? Are we going to start going on and on about ANOTHER thing that will never happen?

jasonwestmas
08-30-2015, 10:05 AM
Didn't Messiah merge w/something else already?? Are we going to start going on and on about ANOTHER thing that will never happen?

no just stating the obvious. Reality is a different matter. I think in my case I've exhausted every avenue.

KurtF
08-30-2015, 11:01 AM
Regarding Blender and Project Gooseberry: did Left Click to select and Right Click for contextual menus every become the default? What about the rest of Andrew Price's suggestions?

safetyman
08-31-2015, 05:22 AM
Regarding Blender and Project Gooseberry: did Left Click to select and Right Click for contextual menus every become the default? What about the rest of Andrew Price's suggestions?

Andrew's suggestions, but his own admission, were somewhat faulty for the most part and irrelevant at this point. Old news. You could always switch to Left Click select, for years now, and Blender now has a Maya-style radial pop up menu built in. It's been there for the last few versions.