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Sanchon
08-11-2014, 05:25 AM
Many of old users wants to know what going on with LightWave ? We are looking for something or we must going out ? Six months without any answers and plans. We must know what to do. What we can expect in the future ?

3D Kiwi
08-11-2014, 05:37 AM
This will be fun

motivalex
08-11-2014, 05:52 AM
I'm sure by end of Siggraph. we will have some news at least on the rumoured 11.x update. Though I doubt LW 12 will be ready until late next year at the earliest, it would be nice to get some info on it that they are cetain they can deliver for it, even if not too specific. I understand they want to avoid disappoints and any future backlash which I understand, but I'm sure they can reveal something.

Hail
08-11-2014, 07:21 AM
The deafening silence from LW3DG is so annoying.:(

OnlineRender
08-11-2014, 07:36 AM
The deafening silence from LW3DG is so annoying.:(

but in there defense since they can't / won't say anything ... it wouldn't matter what LW3DG said or done "WE" would take every single word and then twist it to fit our perspective or the complete opposite and take it as gods final word.

it happens time & time again you only need to read backwards , why would they risk getting burnt again, you don't see any other 3D company engaging with it's users and delivering promises / goals.

it's damage limitation


I would rather see results than corporate banter ... could there be more interaction with it's community? perhaps , but what would you suggest a ROBCAST every month like modo? meh they have a good balancing act atm , newsletters , social presence

Surrealist.
08-11-2014, 08:17 AM
I think they have said about all they need to say. It is pretty clear from things they have said in the past what they are up to. And I don't think they have gotten burned.

What has happened is they have made some very very bad mistakes with development. More like shooting themselves in the foot.

But that is all in the past now. Presently they are carrying on with the stated plans and hopefully some new surprises. Why dredge the past up into it? And why point the finger at the community for their mistakes? Not in communicating but in planning.

I think the only reason they are not saying anything is because there is nothing more to add at this time.

zapper1998
08-11-2014, 08:55 AM
interesting.......... yep

devin
08-11-2014, 09:38 AM
I think that it goes both ways though. We are currently evaluating what software will fulfill our future needs. The strides that LW has made in both software and marketing have been impressive and the free updates with new features are certainly appreciated but it may not be enough to keep my company on board. I really hope that we get a better idea of where things are headed soon.

prometheus
08-11-2014, 10:07 AM
I always liked how the president of houdini was informing and sharing future plans, with Rob Powers it is a bit too silent maybe,I am not sure really what to think of it, I personally would prefer a little more of a roadmap on whats going on, but at the same time I can recognize that Rob might be doing more use stearing up and do actual work in organizing stuff for lightwave behind the scenes ...rather than jumping back and forth and spending energy on forum discussions.
I guess it needs some balance though.

Maybe a scheduled quarter report on the lighwave development might be a good thing, so everyone knows when to excpect further information etc, and the rest of the time is on focus for the actual work on lightwave.
A little of a speculation, not sure if the silenence indeed is a way of not letting other software developers jumping in on tech that is planned to arrive and to insure that no one getīs a head start before the lightwave group is finished.

The last post in the Lighwave announcement section is a bit out of date...
08-07-2013

I can see an issue where people might be afraid nothing is happening etc...I recall my old company stopped updating the news over a year ago, then it filed for bankrupcy, now ..I hope not people catch on to such speculation since I believe they have a lot of stuff going on, but for those not that familiar to lightwave etc..that might be percieved as a bad token.

Live in peace
work in peace
rest in peace

prometheus
08-11-2014, 10:21 AM
but what would you suggest a ROBCAST every month like modo? meh they have a good balancing act atm , newsletters , social presence

Would be enough with a quarter report..I think, that is way more than what we have now and will let them work in between that period undisturbed.

devin
08-11-2014, 10:46 AM
The last post in the Lighwave announcement section is a bit out of date...
08-07-2013

Combine this with MUCH fewer LW user posts, the movement of Tricaster and other products up in prominence in the forums, marketing continually linking to 3+ y/o tutorials on social media, etc. and you start to have a perception problem. I'm a LW user since 5.6 and it's still my daily driver so I only want the best for it and the LW3DG but I do need to know that it's going to continue getting me from point A to point B reliably and efficiently.

Hopefully this pondering is all for naught after this week.

MrWyatt
08-11-2014, 10:48 AM
Combine this with MUCH fewer LW user posts, the movement of the Tricaster and other products up in prominence in the forums, etc. and you start to create a perception problem.

Well said. It's like LW is dead in the water.

m.d.
08-11-2014, 12:05 PM
Ya it's getting ridiculous...
Blender even releases developer meeting notes and you know exactly what is coming down the pipe.....free software

The only real insight into the LW dev process we had was a few posts from David Ikeda, that promptly were removed and he has since quit.

There is a pattern here.....remember the silence before the cancelation of CORE.

Time will tell if LW group has gone into a low power energy saving mode....

To be fair, they were silent before a lot of the significant updates....so here's hoping to be pleasantly surprised

Dan_Ritchie
08-11-2014, 12:19 PM
Developers don't like to talk about features before they finish writing them, otherwise, they are committed to making them work. It's not evil, just inconvenient.

pinkmouse
08-11-2014, 12:31 PM
Developers don't like to talk about features before they finish writing them, otherwise, they are committed to making them work...

And that's a bad thing because? :)

Tropper
08-11-2014, 12:35 PM
Because you guys go crazy if they can't deliver (for what ever reasons) what they talk about earlier. Almost no software company talks about new feature in public before they ready.

jwiede
08-11-2014, 12:36 PM
The strides that LW has made in both software and marketing have been impressive...

Which strides, specifically, are you referring to?

OnlineRender
08-11-2014, 01:14 PM
Which strides, specifically, are you referring to?

In the last year Alone!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Marketing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Newsletter(s)
Proper Email notifications , nice fancy html letters
Social Media Presence and Regular Posting.
LW Plugin DB
LightWave3D website , coded in python and 100 times better than the official joomla NT site
Largest booth at Siggraph last year.
Competitions
Supporting third -party site(s) and developers way more than 2 years ago
Official Tutorials * could be more if I am honest but again better than 2 years ago.
Documentation * python and lwdocs

most of these things are taken for granted and essentially are basic buisness practice but strides have been made.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Software
>>>>>>>>>>>>>

two new application CS & Nevron "although nevron should be included and not module based however I digress".
Modeler got new tools since version 8 really
VPR enhancements
Colour Pickers
Goz

I could go on , but take a look back at 2012* could it be better , of course it could , could they have done things differently , of course they could hindsight is a wonderful thing.

jwiede
08-11-2014, 01:15 PM
Almost no software company talks about new feature in public before they ready.

Virtually every other 3D software company DOES broadly discuss future directions and commit to areas of future development focus with customers, unlike LW3DG.

OnlineRender
08-11-2014, 01:37 PM
Virtually every other 3D software company DOES broadly discuss future directions and commit to areas of future development focus with customers, unlike LW3DG.

who? I disagree with yourself there especially the term "broadly" please correct myself if I am wrong but

ZBrush ? nope
Modo ? not now.
ALL AUTODESK products nope.
3DC nope
Rhino not sure but I assume not
Keyshot nope

pretty much goes on like so , they may release little snippets of code or promo material but no application has a publicized roadmap unless these feautres or tools are already implemented which kinda defeats the purpose , the only exception would be blender but that is a whole different ball game * but again Blender is a business

Tropper
08-11-2014, 01:38 PM
@jwiede
Well, no offense but: why you guys stay here and complain day in day out about how awful everything is around LW when everything is so beautiful and great everywhere else?

Dan_Ritchie
08-11-2014, 02:17 PM
Then why do I keep coming back to Lightwave?

ncr100
08-11-2014, 02:27 PM
I think they have said about all they need to say. It is pretty clear from things they have said in the past what they are up to. And I don't think they have gotten burned.
... Presently they are carrying on with the stated plans and hopefully some new surprises. ...
I think the only reason they are not saying anything is because there is nothing more to add at this time.

That's their new policy. Rob said, pretty explicitly, they won't talk about what they're working on, from now on.

Only when they are basically ready to beta the new / changed feature will they talk. So we can only speculate. Anything more and you're asking for something LW3DG has already explicitly said, "No."

N

m.d.
08-11-2014, 02:29 PM
Adobe is another that broadcasts future software updates....

Seriously, why is so offensive that people want an update during the week of Siggraph? The last update from Rob was almost a year ago, and the only news we've had is that David Ikeda quit....

Lightwave is great and I enjoy using it....but if were not for some nostalgia and brand loyalty I would have been gone ages ago.

The OP question on this thread is what is going on with Lightwave...please dont turn it into a "quit whining non fanboy thread" .....these are legitimate questions

Dan_Ritchie
08-11-2014, 02:32 PM
And that's a bad thing because? :)

Sometimes the error is inherent in things beyond the developers control. Take IK popping for example. It's because the math behind it is faulty, at least in computing terms, not the implementation. Developer gets blamed for it though.

Triodin
08-11-2014, 02:39 PM
I remember there being a call for renders / interviews for a possible LW3DG web stream (not to be confused with a live stream) geared towards siggraph 2014 - does anyone know if maybe that's still a real thing that's happening?

OnlineRender
08-11-2014, 03:43 PM
talking about blender , this is a roadmap from siggy https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfa1/t1.0-9/1795739_783454505019280_4582274258410220676_n.png

raw-m
08-11-2014, 03:58 PM
Is LW3DG at Siggraph this year? I don't see them on the list.

Wickedpup
08-11-2014, 04:02 PM
http://renderman.pixar.com/view/DP25849
Some movement on the Renderman front, but not clear if this developed by the LW3DG....

heynewt
08-11-2014, 04:08 PM
Just picked up on this thread. Stopped in because I didn't hear any news from Lightwave about Siggraph. I was at Siggraph in 2013 and Lightwave had a huge booth right at the front. Looks like they decided not to go to Canada. But not making an out-of-country road trip and not saying "anything" about future development plans during the biggest announcement week for 3D folks are 2 different things. That's just bizarre. Plus, for Newtek, Lightwave seems to now be an afterthought given how little prominence they show it on their website. That speaks volumes.

My company is Newtek's worst nightmare. We've been upgrading for LW 15 years, but we won't go to LW 12. Our clients are pushing us to get out of Lightwave and move to Modo and C4D which is what we're gradually doing. I think LW is probably going the way of Softimage. Both great pieces of software that didn't keep up with the times. At the Autodesk user group meetings, I still get made fun of for sticking with Lightwave. The Maya guys ask if Lightwave has more than one "undo" in the graph editor. I tell them, just wait for LW 20, they're promising TWO undos in the graph editor!!

Robert

raw-m
08-11-2014, 04:14 PM
Yes, no show or no word of a no show at Siggraph concerns me. I'm sure there were requests for showreels for a Siggraph LW3DG showreel earlier this year.

toeknee
08-11-2014, 04:30 PM
I have to agree with the pack here. Leaving up hanging with with out anything sucks. I would hope that someone at Newtek would bother to pipe in here and say something. If we had some kind of hope it would help keep some people from jumping ship. I really wonder whats up with Rob? His last post in the forums was in March. Thats four months with out any contact. Look man there are still many people here that love this tool and need some hope are at least some new to plan their next moves. I know at my company I have to turn in any purchase request easily so I can get the next tools. If I have no feedback it make it harder not to jump ship. I am a die hard fan boy and even I am saying WTF man say something!!

Ztreem
08-11-2014, 04:38 PM
They could at least say if they are planning to release some info or not...

toeknee
08-11-2014, 04:41 PM
Exactly something, the silence is very annoying.

Dan_Ritchie
08-11-2014, 04:41 PM
talking about blender , this is a roadmap from siggy https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfa1/t1.0-9/1795739_783454505019280_4582274258410220676_n.png


Open software is a different ballgame. They have to talk about what they want to do, otherwise, how would anyone know to write it?

Chuck
08-11-2014, 04:48 PM
Just picked up on this thread. Stopped in because I didn't hear any news from Lightwave about Siggraph. I was at Siggraph in 2013 and Lightwave had a huge booth right at the front. Looks like they decided not to go to Canada. But not making an out-of-country road trip and not saying "anything" about future development plans during the biggest announcement week for 3D folks are 2 different things. That's just bizarre. Plus, for Newtek, Lightwave seems to now be an afterthought given how little prominence they show it on their website. That speaks volumes.

My company is Newtek's worst nightmare. We've been upgrading for LW 15 years, but we won't go to LW 12. Our clients are pushing us to get out of Lightwave and move to Modo and C4D which is what we're gradually doing. I think LW is probably going the way of Softimage. Both great pieces of software that didn't keep up with the times. At the Autodesk user group meetings, I still get made fun of for sticking with Lightwave. The Maya guys ask if Lightwave has more than one "undo" in the graph editor. I tell them, just wait for LW 20, they're promising TWO undos in the graph editor!!

Robert

Hi, Robert!

LightWave is indeed not featured at www.newtek.com. That's because two years ago as a step toward strengthening the LightWave brand in it's own right, the newly formed NewTek LW3D Group under President Rob Powers elected to move to a dedicated www.lightwave3d.com home on the web. The reaction of most observers has been that the new home site is far better than any versions of the preceding LightWave product pages that appeared on the NewTek home site. That is what actually speaks volumes, and as a LightWave user myself I not only appreciate the great look of the LightWave site but the improvements that have been made to the registration and accounts system integrated into that site, and the improvements in support also implemented in conjunction with that site.

As with the last time that the show was located in Vancouver, LW3DG has elected not to have a booth at the show this year. I am not in the loop on what they may choose to share this week (I moved into the video marketing team a couple of years ago), but I can say that the team is emphatically not in a slowdown. That's not the way they roll, ever. And man, do they ever rock! :)

Chuck
08-11-2014, 05:01 PM
Yes, no show or no word of a no show at Siggraph concerns me. I'm sure there were requests for showreels for a Siggraph LW3DG showreel earlier this year.

That call for a show reel is a sticky thread at the top of this forum: http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?141674-Call-for-content-Siggraph-2014!

The SIGGRAPH exhibition starts tomorrow. I would expect that would be when they would plan on showing videos, to be in step with the Exhibition portion, as a virtual booth.

m.d.
08-11-2014, 05:39 PM
Thanks Chuck.....good to hear

Ztreem
08-11-2014, 05:44 PM
Thanks Chuck for stepping in and inform us... It stills amazes me that this info is not released for the community in advanced, like in a newsletter or something. It could been as little as, we will not attend Siggraph this year but will have a virtual booth starting a this date and time, come and see us there.

m.d.
08-11-2014, 05:49 PM
Open software is a different ballgame. They have to talk about what they want to do, otherwise, how would anyone know to write it?

Its being developed by a group of individuals in a development team....not random coders across the world.....its almost always the same guys rotating development tasks.
Its not like they are posting asking people to code these tools for them, these roadmaps have people already assigned to the tasks way ahead of time

Blender may be non-profit, but it employs many full time developers and gets some donated help through the google summer of code.....it functions and runs the same as any other software development, just with sales being substituted for donations.

They just happen to publish the developer notes and roadmaps for the sake of the community....they could keep everybody in the dark if they wanted. Who would complain?

erikals
08-11-2014, 06:02 PM
hopefully they'll send out an email informing....

then again, i know myself, i'll find the info, always do... http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/lwicon.png

Snosrap
08-11-2014, 08:19 PM
http://renderman.pixar.com/view/DP25849
Some movement on the Renderman front, but not clear if this developed by the LW3DG.... huh:confused:

lightscape
08-11-2014, 08:32 PM
Hi, Robert!

LightWave is indeed not featured at www.newtek.com. That's because two years ago as a step toward strengthening the LightWave brand in it's own right, the newly formed NewTek LW3D Group under President Rob Powers elected to move to a dedicated www.lightwave3d.com home on the web. The reaction of most observers has been that the new home site is far better than any versions of the preceding LightWave product pages that appeared on the NewTek home site. That is what actually speaks volumes, and as a LightWave user myself I not only appreciate the great look of the LightWave site but the improvements that have been made to the registration and accounts system integrated into that site, and the improvements in support also implemented in conjunction with that site.

As with the last time that the show was located in Vancouver, LW3DG has elected not to have a booth at the show this year. I am not in the loop on what they may choose to share this week (I moved into the video marketing team a couple of years ago), but I can say that the team is emphatically not in a slowdown. That's not the way they roll, ever. And man, do they ever rock! :)


See a statement like this just makes people feel reassured that there's something going on. Its not that hard to communicate this way to users.

The total lack of communication from lw3dg is terrible. The handling of lightwave product on the communication side is terrible, terrible, terrible.

There's so many non-devs who can communicate what's going on like Cody, Matt, Lino, Rob himself its wierd these people are so silent. Take a cue from Brad Peebler how to sell a product.

Davewriter
08-11-2014, 08:59 PM
Wow! A tough crowd. Two years ago Siggraph was in Canada - no LW and all the talk was "this is it. They're going down." A year later and LW has a hot booth, first thing you see on the way in and all was good.

Not that I don't love our friends up north, but two years back, the show wasn't as big and LW wasn't the only team not making an appearance. Let's face it. Siggraph is a really expensive show to do. And if the attendence isn't as large, nor is the visablity there... then why not wait a year and better use some money?

Last year I don't believe there was a Maya booth. So did that mean they're going away? I'm guessing not. They didn't have anything to show, so they used the space for Motionbuilder.

It's not as if we never hear from LW. Cody, Matt & Lino are still posting tuts. They still answer questions asked here.
Sure, I wish I were listed in Rob's email listings. It'd be cool to see what's being worked on. But how helpfull is that to the company?
This last weekend Zbrush had a great show. At heart it was the annoucement of 4 R7. But even with the demos they had - no questions were taken. And they went out of their way to Not Promise that anything they were showing would actually be in the release.
So I have a pretty good feeling that LW crew is still working on things. And I'm guessing that when they have bits rather bolted together well - there will be a grand annoucement.
And then we'll all start carping again because it did/didn't have... or the color of the box was...
I guess it's just the way we are :)

ivanze
08-11-2014, 09:15 PM
Wow! A tough crowd. Two years ago Siggraph was in Canada - no LW and all the talk was "this is it. They're going down." A year later and LW has a hot booth, first thing you see on the way in and all was good.

Not that I don't love our friends up north, but two years back, the show wasn't as big and LW wasn't the only team not making an appearance. Let's face it. Siggraph is a really expensive show to do. And if the attendence isn't as large, nor is the visablity there... then why not wait a year and better use some money?

Last year I don't believe there was a Maya booth. So did that mean they're going away? I'm guessing not. They didn't have anything to show, so they used the space for Motionbuilder.

It's not as if we never hear from LW. Cody, Matt & Lino are still posting tuts. They still answer questions asked here.
Sure, I wish I were listed in Rob's email listings. It'd be cool to see what's being worked on. But how helpfull is that to the company?
This last weekend Zbrush had a great show. At heart it was the annoucement of 4 R7. But even with the demos they had - no questions were taken. And they went out of their way to Not Promise that anything they were showing would actually be in the release.
So I have a pretty good feeling that LW crew is still working on things. And I'm guessing that when they have bits rather bolted together well - there will be a grand annoucement.
And then we'll all start carping again because it did/didn't have... or the color of the box was...
I guess it's just the way we are :)

Totally agree with you.

Vong
08-11-2014, 09:36 PM
Wow! A tough crowd. Two years ago Siggraph was in Canada - no LW and all the talk was "this is it. They're going down." A year later and LW has a hot booth, first thing you see on the way in and all was good.

* 3 * years ago (SIGGRAPH 2011) we were well informed that Newtek/LW3DG wouldn't have a booth and instead would be showing something in November. More news was present then than there is now.


Last year I don't believe there was a Maya booth. So did that mean they're going away? I'm guessing not. They didn't have anything to show, so they used the space for Motionbuilder.

Last year, Autodesk did their own mini-conference across the street. Again, this news was well publicized. It's not like they just didn't show up.


It's not as if we never hear from LW. Cody, Matt & Lino are still posting tuts. They still answer questions asked here.
Sure, I wish I were listed in Rob's email listings. It'd be cool to see what's being worked on. But how helpfull is that to the company?

It would be plenty helpful to the company, because you're not letting your users think that the company is in trouble. There were plenty of tutorials and conversations going on with many 3D programs in the past before the company was bought out or shut down.



This last weekend Zbrush had a great show. At heart it was the annoucement of 4 R7. But even with the demos they had - no questions were taken. And they went out of their way to Not Promise that anything they were showing would actually be in the release.

And would you lookie there... Pixologic is not on SIGGRAPH's list of Exhibitors. Surprise!!! They did their own thing too! :D


So I have a pretty good feeling that LW crew is still working on things. And I'm guessing that when they have bits rather bolted together well - there will be a grand annoucement.

And I'm sure they're still working on things as well, but it would be nice to know that they haven't forgotten about us little folks! :)

toeknee
08-11-2014, 09:43 PM
Thanks for the feedback Chuck, I am sorry to be so hard but for me Siggraph is like Christmas. But this year was starting to feel like I woke up early and ran down to the tree and found out that my Mom and Dad left to go on a cruz and totally forgot me. I guess Pixologic left one present.
Hi Dave writer, I get your point but when you get to the opening day and there is just defining silence. I was like common man— really! I am like the easiest guy to please I just need some hope. If you check my post you will find someone who totally loves Lightwave and someone with really bad writing skills.

Lewis
08-12-2014, 12:13 AM
Wow! A tough crowd. Two years ago Siggraph was in Canada - no LW and all the talk was "this is it. They're going down."

This is not true, Siggraph 2012 was in L.A. convention center and LWG3D was there presenting 11.5 upgrade.

Wickedpup
08-12-2014, 12:14 AM
huh:confused:
Question 5: "A number of third-party developers are currently working on compatibility with popular authoring solutions for RenderMan, including Blender and Lightwave."

alexs3d
08-12-2014, 01:36 AM
ok, here is all the info for siggraph :)

https://www.lightwave3d.com/siggraph_2014/

prometheus
08-12-2014, 02:59 AM
Combine this with MUCH fewer LW user posts, the movement of Tricaster and other products up in prominence in the forums, marketing continually linking to 3+ y/o tutorials on social media, etc. and you start to have a perception problem. I'm a LW user since 5.6 and it's still my daily driver so I only want the best for it and the LW3DG but I do need to know that it's going to continue getting me from point A to point B reliably and efficiently.

Hopefully this pondering is all for naught after this week.


I am responsible for fewer postīs to, or maybe microsoft or newtek webmasters, It happened a while ago since the first of april that I didnīt get any notifications on updated postīs in the threads, thus I didnīt follow and was so active on the forums myself, this seem to have been some extra ordinary spam filter at microsoft, and
there was quite a few guys around having the same issues, could maybe explain lack of activity on the forums a little bit, and some might have been the lack of news etc.
Just a week ago I started to get the notifications back, and my activity is increasing again.

Snosrap
08-12-2014, 07:43 AM
Question 5: "A number of third-party developers are currently working on compatibility with popular authoring solutions for RenderMan, including Blender and Lightwave."

Oh- I see. Sweet!

Davewriter
08-12-2014, 09:03 PM
* 3 * years ago (SIGGRAPH 2011) we were well informed that Newtek/LW3DG wouldn't have a booth and instead would be showing something in November. More news was present then than there is now.
If I remember, somewhat... there was more of a will they/won't they as LW was listed and even shown on the show layout as to where the booth would be. There wasn't much of a true announcement until the last minute and even then folks were looking to see if they would be there. Myself included.


Last year, Autodesk did their own mini-conference across the street. Again, this news was well publicized. It's not like they just didn't show up.

Still much different then in past years when Maya was the big booth - usually in prime spacing. Like just inside the front door. And I know I heard a voice or two asking "I see Motion Builder, but where is Maya?" There is something about seeing, touching, asking at a show booth that gets lost at a rather dry conference.


It would be plenty helpful to the company, because you're not letting your users think that the company is in trouble. There were plenty of tutorials and conversations going on with many 3D programs in the past before the company was bought out or shut down.

I'm guessing that if you are really worried about someone pulling the plug on LW, or selling it, you could probably toss a PM to Cody, Matt, Lino or Rob. I mean not to sound too much like a cheerleader, but it - in corporation time - hasn't been that long since Rob took over and LW was split out as it's own. He has his team. He's been adding more folks. Dang, but the paint has hardly dried on the new offices. I think the PR part will catch up. And with enough complaining voices around... it's a good incentive to push on that end.


And would you lookie there... Pixologic is not on SIGGRAPH's list of Exhibitors. Surprise!!! They did their own thing too! :D
And a fine event it was. Where bits and pieces of things were shown - followed quickly with the disclaimer that they might not be in the next release. And I can't think of a single time where new items for LW were shown/demoed only to become a bit of vapor ware. Or the complaints that followed.


And I'm sure they're still working on things as well, but it would be nice to know that they haven't forgotten about us little folks! :)

The lights are on... the forums are working... and the "team" is still there answering questions. My guess - I got no in here - but if LW is to be a player they can't afford to make stumbles right now. I think Rob wants to make sure it is bolted tight and it all works. And I think that will better benefit us all.

jeric_synergy
08-12-2014, 10:18 PM
LOL... some good truths in this thread.

I think if LW3dG tossed us a crumb every two weeks, we'd be just fine. We're so used to getting by on so little.

If there were a tutorial every month, we'd be in hog heaven.

sami
08-12-2014, 11:48 PM
Wow! A tough crowd. Two years ago Siggraph was in Canada - no LW and all the talk was "this is it. They're going down." A year later and LW has a hot booth, first thing you see on the way in and all was good.

Not that I don't love our friends up north, but two years back, the show wasn't as big and LW wasn't the only team not making an appearance. Let's face it. Siggraph is a really expensive show to do. And if the attendence isn't as large, nor is the visablity there... then why not wait a year and better use some money?

Last year I don't believe there was a Maya booth. So did that mean they're going away? I'm guessing not. They didn't have anything to show, so they used the space for Motionbuilder.

It's not as if we never hear from LW. Cody, Matt & Lino are still posting tuts. They still answer questions asked here.
Sure, I wish I were listed in Rob's email listings. It'd be cool to see what's being worked on. But how helpfull is that to the company?
This last weekend Zbrush had a great show. At heart it was the annoucement of 4 R7. But even with the demos they had - no questions were taken. And they went out of their way to Not Promise that anything they were showing would actually be in the release.
So I have a pretty good feeling that LW crew is still working on things. And I'm guessing that when they have bits rather bolted together well - there will be a grand annoucement.
And then we'll all start carping again because it did/didn't have... or the color of the box was...
I guess it's just the way we are :)

Glad to see the link to the videos and stuff released at this time, however minor it is. (not to mention buried as I never got an email about it - like I have to randomly come across it in a forum thread that I may or may not ever see) Did they tweet it?


But to address your comment, I'm not sure how the big it is when in Anaheim/LA or wherever, but there are over 16,000 people here this year and it seems quite packed and the exhibition hall is huge with even a lot of minor players like Smith Micro showing off Anime Studio Pro and Poser in tiny booths. Unity is of course here now doing v5 demos, and they've snatched up the MotionBuilder guys who are doing new dev for them they say. Autodesk, Houdini, Next Limit/Realflow is of course here as are a number of smaller players and some 3d apps I've never heard of - some touting "a virtual 3dsMax in a browser". Blender is here too with a not small appearance and the exhibition hall is huge - the Vancouver Convention Centre is one of the nicest venues I've been to a conference in and it seems pretty well organized (although their mobile app is way too slow to reliably use compared to the little flipbook guide).

I'm a touch disappointed at some of the tech papers and wished there would be more mind blowing stuff, but I just watched a talk earlier which was demonstrating obtaining the audio track of a soundless video file by analysing vibrations in the video. But I digress, this SIGGRAPH is not tiny and seems just as good as the ones in the US that I've been to at least.

I love Lightwave, hate the forum speculation, but I sure don't go out of my way to tell people I use it these days, even if it is only one piece of your worflow along with other big apps - as it just is not taken seriously at all among most professionals there any more - the content that it can create is, but not the brand. The Lightwave brand has suffered greatly in the marketplace. Roadmaps & strengthening it would help. Website redesigns don't matter to me as much as keeping up to date and being innovative.

prometheus
08-13-2014, 06:17 AM
The lights are on... the forums are working... and the "team" is still there answering questions. My guess - I got no in here - but if LW is to be a player they can't afford to make stumbles right now. I think Rob wants to make sure it is bolted tight and it all works. And I think that will better benefit us all.

True, but it needs balance and carefully respect what rumours,reputation and showcasing roadmaps are doing for sales, such things can be major factors on how people perceive and jump in to a software, and if they know or not know whatīs going on...and also how people actually need to see the road and have some sort of hint on where itīs going, otherwise they will choose the other road which might
be showing more of where it is headed.

We do have some third party interesting tech showing up with lwcad and eventually new nurbs surfaces, and octane, arnold..third powers tools etc, so that is all alive and well I think:) just a few
more inside stuff would be nice, but I understand the difficulties in working with the stuff and showcasing things not validated properly yet.

"Lightwave 11.7 -12 is like a box of chocolates..you never know what you will get until you..." :)

Letīs hope it taste good.
Michael

erikals
08-13-2014, 06:39 AM
well, meanwhile it seems i'll be jumping to Houdini...

tyrot
08-13-2014, 06:54 AM
well, meanwhile it seems i'll be jumping to Houdini...

i guess me too :) - very very interesting stuff in there.

CaptainMarlowe
08-13-2014, 07:08 AM
I had thought so too, but after messing with the apprentice (free) for a while and looking at a lot of tutorials, I've decided that LW (and perhaps Chronosculpt, some day) were fulfilling my needs in the 3D area for now. On the other hand, I think I'll go back to my first passion for a while and go more in depth in Motion and Final Cut Pro X, and if I have some money to spare, it will be for some motionVFX plug-ins for these two video editing/compositing apps.

robertoortiz
08-13-2014, 07:20 AM
About Siggraph.
I have seem some mind blowing stuff on emerging tech here at Siggraph about haptic feedback using ultrasounds. In other words you can touch virtual things in mid air.
And don't get me started about 3d scene recreation using only sound.
Also remote work seems to be the buzz word of the conference.

And the character animation program akeytsu is really impresive.

erikals
08-13-2014, 07:24 AM
And don't get me started about 3d scene recreation using only sound.

also called Echo Sounding...
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/93/Echo_Sounding_USN.jpg

saw fishermen use it when i was a kid... http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/smile.gif

i take it this is a more advanced form of it... :]

erikals
08-13-2014, 07:36 AM
I had thought so too, but after messing with the apprentice (free) for a while and looking at a lot of tutorials, I've decided that LW (and perhaps Chronosculpt, some day) were fulfilling my needs in the 3D area for now.

i wouldn't use Houdini for modeling or character animation, but rather for VFX > hard dynamics, cloth, fluids

just need to verify that LightWave can import the fluids via Alembic or such...

CaptainMarlowe
08-13-2014, 07:45 AM
Yep, that's why it won't help me for the moment. I do need some dynamics here and there, but not enough to justify the time I would spend trying to learn Houdini.

Davewriter
08-13-2014, 09:49 AM
My appologies regarding the last time Siggy was hosted in Vancouver. My wife and I turned it into a rather nice vacation/adventure. And the Center (re?) is lovely both as a faculity and in it's location. It had only been my own personal "feeling" that it had been a smaller event - based upon having attended previous Siggraphs. It had also felt odd, that as you'd walk the floor there would be empty spots on the floor from cancellation. Sure, that happens at every event. It only seemed like there were several "larger" empty spots at this show.

I so agree with you on the love / hate. I have been puttering around with LW for several years - but as a hobbist, so I don't have that added pressure of 'Needing" it to do (fill in the blank/s). Then due to location of where I live, I am (most happily) able to attend the LA LW user group meetings. I think I'm safe in saying that there are always members of the LW team in attendance. That is NOT to say that at each meeting they are rattling off coming items... far from it. But they are there. Smiling, talking and sharing. All of which say to me that things are happening, moving forward and there is no spectre of doom on the horizon. And on those occations when Rob drops by... I'm sorry, but it is hard to be in the room listening to him without wanting to reach down for your own LW pom-poms. He is infectus in the best of ways.

I guess that may be part of what the rest of us is missing. I'm an old comics fan. "Back in the day" with Marvel comics, there would be a little box where Stan Lee would say something. Sometimes it would be a sneak peek for a new book - other times it would be a bad joke. But he'd be there every month. Maybe we just need a "Rob's Ramble" that would pop up from time to time. Maybe a "hey here what we're working on" or "watch out for ... movie / TV it had LW" or just a bad joke. Just to remind the rest of the community that the lights are on, we're revving the engine, Koolness is coming.
Just a thought :)

prometheus
08-13-2014, 09:54 AM
My appologies regarding the last time Siggy was hosted in Vancouver. My wife and I turned it into a rather nice vacation/adventure. And the Center (re?) is lovely both as a faculity and in it's location. It had only been my own personal "feeling" that it had been a smaller event - based upon having attended previous Siggraphs. It had also felt odd, that as you'd walk the floor there would be empty spots on the floor from cancellation. Sure, that happens at every event. It only seemed like there were several "larger" empty spots at this show.

I so agree with you on the love / hate. I have been puttering around with LW for several years - but as a hobbist, so I don't have that added pressure of 'Needing" it to do (fill in the blank/s). Then due to location of where I live, I am (most happily) able to attend the LA LW user group meetings. I think I'm safe in saying that there are always members of the LW team in attendance. That is NOT to say that at each meeting they are rattling off coming items... far from it. But they are there. Smiling, talking and sharing. All of which say to me that things are happening, moving forward and there is no spectre of doom on the horizon. And on those occations when Rob drops by... I'm sorry, but it is hard to be in the room listening to him without wanting to reach down for your own LW pom-poms. He is infectus in the best of ways.

I guess that may be part of what the rest of us is missing. I'm an old comics fan. "Back in the day" with Marvel comics, there would be a little box where Stan Lee would say something. Sometimes it would be a sneak peek for a new book - other times it would be a bad joke. But he'd be there every month. Maybe we just need a "Rob's Ramble" that would pop up from time to time. Maybe a "hey here what we're working on" or "watch out for ... movie / TV it had LW" or just a bad joke. Just to remind the rest of the community that the lights are on, we're revving the engine, Koolness is coming.
Just a thought :)

If Rob doesnīt have any actuall "useful food" information on upcoming tech and development, I think it is actually better of if he is silent and let him focus on the development, then again itīs a different matter if they schedule such events and indeed actually making sure the information is "useful food"

jeric_synergy
08-13-2014, 11:24 AM
Well, I don't want Rob to waste his time, but he IS in a position to see the latest and greatest in many related developments. So, even if he didn't say anything LW-specific, he might have an interesting observation once a month.

It'd be nice.

SaleVonGeist
08-14-2014, 01:06 AM
i wouldn't use Houdini for modeling or character animation, but rather for VFX > hard dynamics, cloth, fluids

just need to verify that LightWave can import the fluids via Alembic or such...

Unfortunately current Alembic implementation in LW doesn't support changing topology, so that rules out fluids transfer in 99% cases. Surfaced mesh is out of the question in any case because point count changes on every frame (same goes for foam/bubbles/spray). Only thing you could transfer is pure particles in simulation where reseeding is turned off and you don't source fluids from additional emitters during sim, so the point count stays the same. Until we see some Alembic improvements you could use Realfow plugins to transfer stuff to LW if you really need to. Better/easier way would be to just transfer your camera and geometry with FBX to Houdini and render these elements with Mantra (greater control using various attributes from particles/sim inside shaders, better handling huge amount of geometry/data, etc.).

sami
08-14-2014, 01:06 AM
btw

Of the ~50 or so animations on the featured SIGGRAPH showcase (and delivered on USB key) only single ONE mentioned Lightwave was used in its production. Yes I went through every single one and looked at the hardware/software credits in them and only Crytek's "Ryse of Rome" mentioned Lightwave (among like 50 tools) and I kind of suspect only a sword or some random background thing was modeled in LW. No wonder people look at you funny if you mention lightwave.

Sadly, the Lightwave brand (much more so than the software itself that i dig) is becoming a bit of a liability professionally. I think I might hack my copy of LW and stick an autodesk png in my Layout splash screen and pretend it's an old version of Maya. ;)

jwiede
08-14-2014, 01:15 AM
Hmm, thought I'd posted my response to this already, but apparently not, so...


who? I disagree with yourself there especially the term "broadly" please correct myself if I am wrong but

ZBrush ? nope
Wrong. Pixologic Summit (last weekend) both discussed and showed a substantial demo of what was coming in the next release of Zbrush, to anyone who wanted to watch. Pixologic had given similar demos/discussions well in advance of past few releases as well.

Modo ? not now.
Wrong. The entire "frogurt" discussion was about upcoming feature work, they showed Colorway at the 801 release, and there's a customer-only forum area which has been a place for them to discuss upcoming features and changes across multiple releases/years.

ALL AUTODESK products nope.
Wrong. Autodesk's EUE (End User Event) has "classes" discussing and demonstrating upcoming features and directions for both Maya and Max, and they've been using that event as a means for customer feedback on direction and feature implementation for years now.

3DC nope
Wrong. Customers get access to all "in progress" beta releases between releases, and Andrew frequently discusses new feature work and directions in the beta topics.

Rhino not sure but I assume not
(sigh, there's a trend here) Wrong. Users have had access to Wenatchee (Mac Rhino) throughout its development, and the communications about it are all about new features and directions.

Keyshot nope
I hardly consider this a relevant "competitor" for LW, but your poor track record above also makes me skeptical about your claim.

pretty much goes on like so
Frankly, you proved my case much more so than supported your own. And, of course, you deliberately omitted companies like SideFx who are extremely open with customers about future directions and beta access. Between Autodesk and SideFx, that's most of the 3D market right there, and as noted, they both openly discuss features and directions with customers (SideFx more so, but AD does as well).

kfinla
08-14-2014, 09:49 AM
Yes the LW alembic importer needs improvements so, particle and fluid sims can come over.

The LW Geo cache importer can't handle changing topology either.

Sanchon
08-14-2014, 09:51 AM
Some days ago I went to Modo Trial. At the moment I can say that Modo's realtime preview is much worse than LightWave VPR. VPR have much more speed, he deals with large scenes without problems, VPR have much greater sensitivity than Modo previewer. Big architectural scenes with many instance groups is a pain for Modo - Lightwave can support them without problems. But Modo have some other things that LW doesn't have.

prometheus
08-14-2014, 10:25 AM
Yes the LW alembic importer needs improvements so, particle and fluid sims can come over.

The LW Geo cache importer can't handle changing topology either.

mdd export works though, but no use for fluids since you canīt have a change in increasing point amount.
object sequence is probably the only way for exporting out the fluid meshes from houdini to lightwave, have done that before ..but lost the workflow since I rarely touch houdini for the moment.

Emmanuel
08-14-2014, 10:56 AM
Yeah, LW and its flaws :D Every package got theirs, I tried to have an object emit particles in Cinema4D. Thats what, a few clicks in LW ? In Cinema You need to build some elaborate thinking particles structure.

m.d.
08-14-2014, 12:18 PM
mdd export works though, but no use for fluids since you canīt have a change in increasing point amount.
object sequence is probably the only way for exporting out the fluid meshes from houdini to lightwave, have done that before ..but lost the workflow since I rarely touch houdini for the moment.

you can use the realflow plugins to export houdini fluids to LW

erikals
08-14-2014, 12:26 PM
anyone with experience on this, would it work ok in LightWave for, let's say 50mill polys if one has sufficient ram?

(running 64bit LightWave of course, not 32...)

jwiede
08-14-2014, 12:28 PM
Yeah, LW and its flaws :D Every package got theirs, I tried to have an object emit particles in Cinema4D. Thats what, a few clicks in LW ? In Cinema You need to build some elaborate thinking particles structure.

It all depends on what you're trying to do. What did you use them for later such that they needed to be particles versus, say, dynamics-driven instances from mograph cloners? Using Mograph it would have been about as simple as in LW.

jwiede
08-14-2014, 12:33 PM
anyone with experience on this, would it work ok in LightWave for, let's say 50mill polys if one has sufficient ram?

(running 64bit LightWave of course, not 32...)

You mean using RF plugins to import? You'll need to define "sufficient ram". I find the LW RF plugins are quite capable, but ram-hungry, though I've never tried anything on that scale. I was able to exhaust my ram a couple times (32GB here) importing overly dense sims with the "basic" RF plugin, it's less efficient than RFRK (but unless sim'ing in RF, RFRK isnt an option).

erikals
08-14-2014, 01:00 PM
thanks, i guess i'll just have to test it and see...

thought i had it written down somewhere, but can't find the info atm

so, guess i need more than 32GB then... http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/smile.gif
luckily Ram is cheap these days

afaik though, LightWave isn't too bad as long as you don't use deformers in the scene
i should ask this at the RF forum too, though looks like i'm taking a Houdini...

Nicolas Jordan
08-14-2014, 01:08 PM
Some days ago I went to Modo Trial. At the moment I can say that Modo's realtime preview is much worse than LightWave VPR. VPR have much more speed, he deals with large scenes without problems, VPR have much greater sensitivity than Modo previewer. Big architectural scenes with many instance groups is a pain for Modo - Lightwave can support them without problems. But Modo have some other things that LW doesn't have.

You should get way better performance out of the Modo previewer if you optimize it's settings. It tends to be a bit sluggish with complex heavy scenes if you use it with it's default settings. After I optimize it I find it to be very comparable to Lightwaves VPR for speed.

cresshead
08-14-2014, 01:21 PM
can't talk about future road maps?

okay that's cool...

how about a marketing video of what you've done and released with each point update..seeing as there's little video marketing with Rob or a demo artist you might want to look back on stuff and tell us what came out of lightwave 11.0 upto today's 11.6 and throw in a little on nevron motion and chronosculpt too...you "could" also hint at 11.7 as it's quite close from rumblings.

OlaHaldor
08-14-2014, 01:29 PM
That's actually a good point. Videos. Communicate visually with the community and users.
I'm not familiar with other developers of competing apps, either way, LW3DG, this is something you shouldn't under estimate.

"What have we accomplished so far?", "What are we currently working on now but cannot show yet?", "What do we wish to do in the future?" kind of things. I totally understand you cannot show us everything and possibly let us down - but keep us on the edge of the seat.

Look at how gaming studios does it. Small drops of information - visually. A demo of a new tool or feature would do tons and go viral within the community on social media. That's basically free advertising..

prometheus
08-14-2014, 01:46 PM
you can use the realflow plugins to export houdini fluids to LW

Ah..good to know, but are those realflow plugins available for free? on the realflow site?

m.d.
08-14-2014, 01:49 PM
You mean using RF plugins to import? You'll need to define "sufficient ram". I find the LW RF plugins are quite capable, but ram-hungry, though I've never tried anything on that scale. I was able to exhaust my ram a couple times (32GB here) importing overly dense sims with the "basic" RF plugin, it's less efficient than RFRK (but unless sim'ing in RF, RFRK isnt an option).

ya 50 million is pretty big....don't think thats necessary in 90% of the shots. Especially since the meshing is adaptive only putting detail where it needs to be.

I don't tend to use RFRK as all it saves is disk space, not time. It only meshes on an F9 render...so octane and VPR preview is out, whereas pre-meshed you can tweak surfaces using Octane IPR or VPR.
Also it re-meshes every time, so if you are doing passes or re-rendering it will waste the time to re-mesh on each render. I really think the only advantage is portability of the fluid in a networked environment or to a separate machine...besides that there are several disadvantages.

prometheus
08-14-2014, 01:52 PM
Yeah, LW and its flaws :D Every package got theirs, I tried to have an object emit particles in Cinema4D. Thats what, a few clicks in LW ? In Cinema You need to build some elaborate thinking particles structure.

seems to be the same with modo, seems to be a bit more tedious to setup some basic things, might be a workflow adjustment thingy perhaps, but a simple birth rate emission from textures or procedurals seem way more direct in lightwave than setting
it up with the nodeīs in modo, then again..due to the structure of the node based engine in modo, you have way more control over the particle flow and noise, and apart from that all the fancy sculpting of particles and creating mesh and mesh parts from
particles that can be sculpted by switching between mesh and particle mode.

I hope Lightwave can keep itīs direct simple setup for particles, and still manage to dive in to more advanced node controls, maybe itīs not possible and they need to recreate a completly new particle system that can connect to most
other tools in lightwave..and thus it might need to live inside a completly new node based particle engine, the downside of that...I think it will be more non inutiuve and harder to setup, and also evaluating in the node system might be much slower...resulting in particle calculations being very slow.

m.d.
08-14-2014, 01:58 PM
Ah..good to know, but are those realflow plugins available for free? on the realflow site?

not 100% sure....getting the learning edition should give you access though...maybe even a demo

In my opinion realflow is the way to go.

It's true Houdini has probably superior fluids...after all Hybrido 2 is just Houdini FLIP just a few years later. Houdini had variable viscosity for a few years, whereas RF just got it in 2014. Naiad was also very high end, but exist now only inside Maya.

The reason I would suggest Realflow, is the pipeline is 100% flawless with Lightwave. Houdini can take some work, and in the end it is best to use the realflow plugins there....Bifrost, not sure how that would work...wouldn't surprise me if realflow plugins was the answer

Realflow is plenty powerful, and pain free workflow into LW....but only for fluids

Houdini can do so much more.....IMHO this is also the way to go for character animation outside of LW. Metaball capture geometry, weight painting, muscles, paintable sliding attributes ect ect. Very underrated as an animation package....but all the tools are there including an auto rigger.

And the fire and smoke is identical to Turbulence4d....but better. They are all based on similar research papers, so a lot of what you know of Turbulence will transfer directly into Houdini's approach as well.

jwiede
08-14-2014, 02:28 PM
Ah..good to know, but are those realflow plugins available for free? on the realflow site?

If you have a learning or full edition of RF, then yes, otherwise no.

Wonder if LW3DG plans to incorporate Ogawa (Alembic 1.5) any time soon?

Sanchon
08-14-2014, 02:30 PM
You should get way better performance out of the Modo previewer if you optimize it's settings. It tends to be a bit sluggish with complex heavy scenes if you use it with it's default settings. After I optimize it I find it to be very comparable to Lightwaves VPR for speed.

Probaply you have right - I don't know how Modo works - YET. Now they have 40% discount. If LW3D Group don't wants my money ( for lw12 ) I will pay for Modo. This is good moment. Three-five months of learning and probably I will do the same arch viz as in LightWave. V-Ray for Modo is exists now as beta - http://www.v-ray.com/MODO

Chris S. (Fez)
08-14-2014, 03:06 PM
If LW3D Group don't wants my money ( for lw12 )

I have the same sentiment. I would happily pay now for incremental 12 updates that keep Lightwave modern and relevant. It is beyond frustrating that we still have to deal with CC subd issues.

erikals
08-14-2014, 03:19 PM
Houdini Fluids via Alembic to Maya seems to work, but that's another story... (?)

http://vimeo.com/38550549

erikals
08-14-2014, 03:53 PM
found some answers here, might be the same technique that goes today too...

http://forums.odforce.net/topic/7260-houdini-to-lightwave-pipeline

tonyrizo2003
08-14-2014, 05:01 PM
Hmmm... I found this. http://youtu.be/jwdRQsVe0n4


That's actually a good point. Videos. Communicate visually with the community and users.
I'm not familiar with other developers of competing apps, either way, LW3DG, this is something you shouldn't under estimate.

"What have we accomplished so far?", "What are we currently working on now but cannot show yet?", "What do we wish to do in the future?" kind of things. I totally understand you cannot show us everything and possibly let us down - but keep us on the edge of the seat.

Look at how gaming studios does it. Small drops of information - visually. A demo of a new tool or feature would do tons and go viral within the community on social media. That's basically free advertising..

OlaHaldor
08-15-2014, 12:17 AM
And that's a good start.
What a bout a little live stream where Lino or Rob, or someone else who's speaking fluid LightWave, can take us through some new stuff, ideas, things being worked on. Even a discussion etc. But for the sake of us all - don't make it look so unflattering with cheesy 3D environment studios on a greenscreen like the Core stuff. It was embarrassing.

Keep it simple, make us connect with YOU and not just the application we use so much. Let us ask discuss and ask questions in a chat next to the stream, and then pick random questions if you see any of interest and answer them.
I think Relic Entertainment does a great job talking to the community about their Company of Heroes 2 franchise in this exact way. Each time there's a huge update coming, they announce the stream a couple of days in advance, and there's a couple of designers talking about what they've added or adjusted since the last update, then a little showoff, take time to answer some questions and in the end, a little showoff of what's to come. Even stills do wonders, if they can't show anything playable yet.

LW3DG, think about it. You probably have access to even the simplest Tricaster anyway with NewTek. Even a simple free tool such as OBS Recorder can make a decent stream.
YouTube can do live streams too, and is a TERRIFIC platform to reach out to social media as well as embed on websites, and is no longer just for pre-recorded and uploaded video, it's just a matter of hooking it all up with an account and start streaming.
Why use the proprietary live stream solution you've used the past couple of years? It's cumbersome and to be frank - doesn't look good.

Need more ideas ? Get in touch with me. It's boiling over with ideas and ways to communicate and how to deal with it technically (coming from over a decade with live video production).


Oh! Vented. Feels good.

Sanchon
08-17-2014, 08:39 PM
You should get way better performance out of the Modo previewer if you optimize it's settings. It tends to be a bit sluggish with complex heavy scenes if you use it with it's default settings. After I optimize it I find it to be very comparable to Lightwaves VPR for speed.

I did another test with some bigger architectural scene, night version with spootlights and instances - replicators. I used very low settings in Modo previewer. Still VPR is much better in terms of speed, response time and stability - I had one crash in Modo. Modo had some problems while moving objects or lights with such scene - I had a few seconds of ide times where VPR can update in realtime. I did this test using trick that I described some time ago in my spotlight :

1. Use Global Illumination panel radiosity settings only for preview purpose :

RPE=10, SBR=5, AT=50, MPS=10

2. For final rendering or accurate preview use only Radiosity Settings from Object Propoerties panel.

3. Switch between these settings globally using "Redirect GI Settings" command and assign it to any key for fast switching. You can find it in "configure keys" panel.

If you do that, VPR can preview scene with good quality for texture or light settings previewing near in realtime. Modo can't do that. And there is no difference how large this scene is and how many instances you have - 2-8 seconds for acceptable preview with fast response timing.

jwiede
08-18-2014, 09:36 PM
I did another test with some bigger architectural scene, night version with spootlights and instances - replicators. I used very low settings in Modo previewer. Still VPR is much better in terms of speed, response time and stability - I had one crash in Modo. Modo had some problems while moving objects or lights with such scene - I had a few seconds of ide times where VPR can update in realtime. I did this test using trick that I described some time ago in my spotlight :

1. Use Global Illumination panel radiosity settings only for preview purpose :

RPE=10, SBR=5, AT=50, MPS=10

2. For final rendering or accurate preview use only Radiosity Settings from Object Propoerties panel.

3. Switch between these settings globally using "Redirect GI Settings" command and assign it to any key for fast switching. You can find it in "configure keys" panel.

If you do that, VPR can preview scene with good quality for texture or light settings previewing near in realtime. Modo can't do that. And there is no difference how large this scene is and how many instances you have - 2-8 seconds for acceptable preview with fast response timing.

Which version of modo, and what render settings for preview?

Sanchon
08-21-2014, 04:31 AM
801 SP2. Problem is not with the quality of the preview but with response time while moving camera or objects in the scene. Settings of the previewer low as possible - Quality=25%, AS=1, both max rays = 8. Modo has big lag in big scenes with a lot of replicators - VPR not. So I think that LW have much better previewer in much older architecture - I'm right ? ;) I can do in LW much better preview ( in the terms of quality ) than in Modo within the same time...

Surrealist.
08-21-2014, 06:17 AM
VPR as far as I understand came from core and was one of the first features implemented into LW. So I am not sure how much new architecture had to come across with that, but it has been stated that this is an ongoing process working under the hood.

Sanchon
08-21-2014, 06:30 AM
VPR as far as I understand came from core and was one of the first features implemented into LW. So I am not sure how much new architecture had to come across with that, but it has been stated that this is an ongoing process working under the hood.

Who knows except developers how ( in which way ) VPR is implemented in LW 11.6 ? If VPR come from Core, current LightWave is a "hybrid" software.

erikals
08-21-2014, 06:44 AM
afaik, the new render engine updates in LW was written with Core in mind, so when VPR was finished for Core, it was easier to port it (back) to LW. ---> something like that.

other than VPR, i don't think they were able to port too much from Core. (Bullet was open source any way, so didn't really need a port)

i guess the positive thing about this is that the turnaround from Core to LW10 seems to be a hell-uv-a maneuver... (lots of work)

as far as the LW future, not sure where the LW3DG is going. but i've been satisfied with the updates so far.

this of course brings yet again :P up the M/L split / rewrite, and when it will be fixed, but that's been discussed till the end of earth's borders, so... please don't go there...

Sanchon
08-21-2014, 06:56 AM
so... please don't go there...

Right. But... where and when we are going ( if we are going ) - there is a question. Please note that competition never sleeps and competition at the moment can offer ........... *bump.

cresshead
08-21-2014, 08:30 AM
lot's of work "under the hood"....but it's pretty dark...can't see anything under the hood currently :)

http://s5.goodfon.su/wallpaper/previews-middle/439228.jpg

erikals
08-21-2014, 09:20 AM
with no reference to xSI... ? :]

http://www.erikalstad.com/cgtemp/xsiooo.jpg

jwiede
08-21-2014, 12:19 PM
with no reference to xSI... ? :]

Considering the level Softimage was at when EOL'd, I imagine its endgame will be much like Shake, with very substantial numbers of customers using it for as long as it continues to work -- or at least until AD breaks that ability to continue working somehow.

<< Still a frequent Shake user, pry from cold, dead hands and all that.

CaptainMarlowe
08-21-2014, 02:31 PM
I never had the opportunity to get my hands on Shake, it was dumped just when I was thinking of getting into it... besides Motion which I really lie for a lot of things, I'm thinking about learning Natron (http://natron.inria.fr). But I don't have enough spare time...

spherical
08-21-2014, 08:26 PM
this of course brings yet again up the M/L split / rewrite, and when it will be fixed, but that's been discussed till the end of earth's borders, so... please don't go there...

Oh well. It was interesting to note that the Abiogenesis creator specifically likes it as two separate, dedicated applications that allow focus on the task at hand.

jwiede
08-21-2014, 08:40 PM
Oh well. It was interesting to note that the Abiogenesis creator specifically likes it as two separate, dedicated applications that allow focus on the task at hand.

I have serious doubts that was an honest random comment in no way elicited or encouraged.

spherical
08-21-2014, 09:39 PM
As do I. However, I agree with him; just the same. You're not suggesting that he's lying, are you?

lightscape
08-21-2014, 11:48 PM
I have serious doubts that was an honest random comment in no way elicited or encouraged.

I don't think he was elicited. He looks old school lwver and some of them don't let the limitation of the split app get in the way of artists creativity.

Wickedpup
08-22-2014, 12:33 AM
"Limitation" being the keyword here..... :p

MarcusM
08-22-2014, 02:17 AM
I am sure that LW3DG preparing something BIG on christmas or yy happy holidays and not for free ;]

erikals
08-22-2014, 03:25 AM
well, meanwhile there are always other plugins / apps related to LW to explore / to cash

-TurbulenceFD
-LWCad
-TAFA
-Houdini Indie
-RealFlow
-InfiniMap
-3DCoat
-Octane w/plugin
-PhotoShop
-Rhiggit
-Syflex
-UVLayout
-Perception Neuron
-PhotoScan
-AHK
-Quixel
-CrazyBump / ShaderMap / MindTex

ianr
08-22-2014, 06:47 AM
May add to Erikals list .... 3rdPowers GO pack

(Including Cage & Lattice deformers)

Nicolas Jordan
08-22-2014, 08:36 AM
Since nothing was shown or announced during Siggraph I'm predicting we will probably get a peek at Lightwave 12 before the end of the year at the very least. I now have doubts that there will be a 11.7 update.

hrgiger
08-22-2014, 08:44 AM
Since nothing was shown or announced during Siggraph I'm predicting we will probably get a peek at Lightwave 12 before the end of the year at the very least. I now have doubts that there will be a 11.7 update.

There was no plans to have a presence at Siggraph this year so its no surprise that 11.7 was not shown. I'm sure that any focus this year will be on 11.7 and we probably won't hear anything about LW12 until next year.

sadkkf
08-22-2014, 08:56 AM
Adobe is another that broadcasts future software updates....

adobe is famous for stating new features that never make it to their products. Physics in Flash never arrived and I needed that at the time. Sorry, Adobe sucks. Plain and simple.

raw-m
08-22-2014, 09:03 AM
Adobe schmo-be.

Nicolas Jordan
08-22-2014, 09:22 AM
There was no plans to have a presence at Siggraph this year so its no surprise that 11.7 was not shown. I'm sure that any focus this year will be on 11.7 and we probably won't hear anything about LW12 until next year.

I may have missed it since I don't read everything on these forums but was there some kind of official or unofficial info indicating 11.7 is on the way? If it is then that may indicate it could be a while before we see Lightwave 12.

erikals
08-22-2014, 09:42 AM
as LightWave 12 wasn't presented at Siggraph i think it'll be a while before we see it... http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/oye.gif

would be strange to present it right after Siggraph i think...

i'm guessing 3 months minimum...

jeric_synergy
08-22-2014, 11:14 AM
ALL, literally ALL I'd like from LW 11.7 is a majority of the bugs fixed.

Well, maybe Screamernet simplified. But nothing added. Just fixes.

jasonwestmas
08-22-2014, 11:24 AM
I suggest evaluating the future based on what you are using today. If you don't like what you are using use something else that is available.

jasonwestmas
08-22-2014, 11:26 AM
well, meanwhile there are always other plugins / apps related to LW to explore / to cash

-TurbulenceFD
-LWCad
-TAFA
-Houdini Indie
-RealFlow
-InfiniMap
-3DCoat
-Octane w/plugin
-PhotoShop
-Rhiggit
-Syflex
-UVLayout
-Perception Neuron
-PhotoScan
-AHK
-Quixel
-CrazyBump / ShaderMap / MindTex

Yup, excellent point. I would definitely check that stuff out!! I already have in some cases. Makes a world of difference when using LW.

Greenlaw
08-22-2014, 11:42 AM
May add to Erikals list .... 3rdPowers GO pack

(Including Cage & Lattice deformers)

Yes! The 3rd Powers tools have been a game changer for me.

Also I'd like to add iPi Mocap Studio 2 to the list--being able to capture motion for my Lightwave scenes using three synchronized Kinects in my living room is so cool. Oh, and Vue too...I haven't done any Vue/Lightwave jobs this past year but I used to do a lot of them.

Atangeo Balancer Pro has also been very useful--many times I'll run super-hi-rez 3D Coat landscapes through this program, which can heavily and precisely optimze the mesh while preserving the UV map.

I use Headus UV Layout for Lightwave models that need the extra fussing, but lately I've been doing a lot of my UV mapping in 3DC.

G.

willin
08-22-2014, 11:45 AM
This forums are getting to be like present day journalism, someone make a comment in this or another forum, someone else quotes the first comment and from then on it is quoted as Gospel whether it was base on fact or conjecture.

Over the years i have come to the realization that it doesn't matter whether Newtek puts out any news or it doesn't there is always going to be dissatisfied people. I am glad that they have chosen to keep their traps shut until now and i hope they continue to keep their traps shut until the day they release something. That way there won't be any doubt about what is being released. We get what is being release. Buy it if you want it, skip it if you don't. Hell if you spent all of your time on this forums you probably won't be satisfied with any release any way because the software that you are waiting for is one that does the work for you so you can keep on flapping your dis-pleasures on the forums. Not going to happen. If it ever does then you'll complaint that the software isn't finding you any clients.

Others want Lightwave 3D to be Maya or Houdini or whatever. People when you buy Lightwave 3D you are not buying Maya, Houdini, XSI or whatever, you are buying Lightwave 3D with the two separate apps and the lightwave workflow and workarounds. The Maya, Houdini, XSI, or whatever workflows and their workarounds have already been invented and you all know where to find them, yes, you find the Maya workflow in Maya, Houdini workflow in Houdini, etc., etc... What complainers really want is not Lightwave 3D, they want Maya or Houdini or whatever with the price tag of Lightwave 3D.

Maybe if Newtek concentrated on the windows version and stop wasting man hours on the apple version things would move along easier and faster. I have never understood the logic behind buying an apple computer. You pay more money and you get less options but you have a pretty silver computer with a cute logo on it.

Another thing that i have notice on this forums is that the loudest mouths are the cheapest people. They want everything but they want it as a free upgrade or a free plugin or a free tutorial. The cheapest people. Maybe the people that hang around this forums as of late are hobbyist with no cash-flow but plenty of time to complain.

One last thing that i have notice is that there are still a lot of generous people left in this forums who are willing to help others when help is ask for. Even after the "Great Core Cleansing" as i like to call it, when a bunch of the old timers were sponge from this forums.

Surrealist.
08-22-2014, 12:11 PM
lol!

Dude... wow.... where does one start? Probably not worth the time to pick this apart.

Do we really need to get started on another sling fest?

Mods?

jasonwestmas
08-22-2014, 12:15 PM
lol!

Dude... wow.... where does one start? Probably not worth the time to pick this apart.

Do we really need to get started on another sling fest?

Mods?

hehe yeah. . . You complainers about complainers (not you) do realize you are peeing in the wind right.

Ryan Roye
08-22-2014, 12:20 PM
Yes! The 3rd Powers tools have been a game changer for me.

For me as well. My latest project required me to rig and animate about 30+ different characters composed of entirely different models that contained zero endomorphs. If it were not for the cagedeformer/lattice plugins, I would have had to tell the commissioner that I could not do it without charging significantly more. So, instead of creating 20+ endomorphs per character, I instead just used cagedeformer and had full control over facial expressions.

Because this was a cartoon production, I also utilized lattice deformer extensively for squash and stretch, and for allowing the environment to push against a character. Lattice was also used for secondary animation as applying it involves very little CPU overhead. Needless to say, it IS a game changer for Lightwave animators and it is obvious the 3rdpower devs were animators themselves who had these very same needs. Cage/Lattice deformer really puts a lot of fun back into Lightwave's animation workflow :)

jeric_synergy
08-22-2014, 12:31 PM
For me as well. My latest project required me to rig and animate about 30+ different characters composed of entirely different models that contained zero endomorphs. If it were not for the cagedeformer/lattice plugins, I would have had to tell the commissioner that I could not do it without charging significantly more. So, instead of creating 20+ endomorphs per character, I instead just used cagedeformer and had full control over facial expressions.

Because this was a cartoon production, I also utilized lattice deformer extensively for squash and stretch, and for allowing the environment to push against a character. Lattice was also used for secondary animation as applying it involves very little CPU overhead. Needless to say, it IS a game changer for Lightwave animators and it is obvious the 3rdpower devs were animators themselves who had these very same needs. Cage/Lattice deformer really puts a lot of fun back into Lightwave's animation workflow :)
We all hope that LW gains market share, both for the health of the company/product and the expansion of opportunity to use our hard-won skills.

IF LW3dG's marketing/sales staff were savvy, they would 1) notify 3dPowers of your testimonial here, and 2) team with them to use the above as promotion of Lightwave to character animators across the world.

I'm pretty sure LW's reputation, deservedly or not, is not high amongst CA'ers as a group. Promotion to them should be fairly high on the priority list of the marketing staff. There's 3dPowers products, RHRiggit, testimonials and training from Chazriker-- all these can be used to beat the LW/CA drum, which could use some beating.

(I'm not sure how many English-fluent staff 3dPowers has, so calling this to their attention will help grease those wheels.)

jwiede
08-22-2014, 12:39 PM
As do I. However, I agree with him; just the same.

On liking workspace layouts that are focused on workflows specific to a given phase of work? So do virtually all 3D pkg customers, apparently, because such separations are a fundamental part (LW via separate apps, the rest via GUI/UX layout mgmt offering workspaces or equivalent) of virtually all 3D packages. That's what makes this point so ridiculous, it's describing a property that is already present in virtually all of LW's competitors at least as much as it is in LW -- most others' implementations just don't impose the restrictions of LW's separate app approach.


You're not suggesting that he's lying, are you?

Of course not, I neither said nor meant that. I just think there was something "off" in how he stated it.

While he discussed his work, the author came across as a little nervous, but focused and comfortable with what he was saying. During the comment about separate workflow, his demeanor (and body language) changed: His speaking became more tentative and awkward, and lost the spontaneity of his earlier statements. That's usually indicative of someone repeating phrasing that isn't using the same phrasing patterns they'd normally use (as in elicited or scripted speech). The abrupt way he brought it up didn't help either, you can almost tell the exact moment when he realizes he still needs to mention it.

jeric_synergy
08-22-2014, 12:44 PM
May add to Erikals list .... 3rdPowers GO pack
(Including Cage & Lattice deformers)
I'm pretty sure the GO Pack per se has long since expired. Of course, we all can purchase the plugins separately.

+++
re: Jweide's observation: like him, I'm pretty sure that while the creator of "Abiogenesis" wasn't lying, his interviewer surely asked a very leading question. The editor should have left it out, as the response was very awkward, although most likely entirely truthful, as far as it went.

jwiede
08-22-2014, 01:12 PM
I'm pretty sure LW's reputation, deservedly or not, is not high amongst CA'ers as a group.

Sorry, but I don't believe pointing out to CA pros that LW now has cage/lattice deformers, something they nigh-all already have available in Maya/SI/whatever (and have had for some time), will do much to improve their perception of Lightwave's reputation. If anything, that Lightwave is "just now" getting such deformers (not even built-in), seems more likely to reinforce their impression of Lightwave as "behind the times" and irrelevant (IMO).

The couple pro animators I know personally considered the lack of "full" tracked/layered/mixed NLA a deal-breaker when I asked what they thought of Lightwave. I get the impression from others' comments online that they're not alone in that position.

RebelHill
08-22-2014, 01:55 PM
The couple pro animators I know personally considered the lack of "full" tracked/layered/mixed NLA a deal-breaker when I asked what they thought of Lightwave.

Not wrong.

By FAR the biggest single complaint from those animators on the outside is LWs lack of animation layers, once you've gotten used to using them, there's pretty much no going back. It's like trying to paint in photoshop/whatever without image layers.

creacon
08-22-2014, 02:02 PM
At our studio it would be the lack of undo.

creacon


Not wrong.

By FAR the biggest single complaint from those animators on the outside is LWs lack of animation layers, once you've gotten used to using them, there's pretty much no going back. It's like trying to paint in photoshop/whatever without image layers.

jeric_synergy
08-22-2014, 03:10 PM
Not wrong.

By FAR the biggest single complaint from those animators on the outside is LWs lack of animation layers,
?? Didn't Chazriker show a LW animation layer plugin just recently?

Anyway, I take your points, but just getting people to HEAR about LW might be desirable, if one can avoid invidious (though deserved) comparisons.

jwiede
08-22-2014, 06:51 PM
Not wrong.

By FAR the biggest single complaint from those animators on the outside is LWs lack of animation layers, once you've gotten used to using them, there's pretty much no going back. It's like trying to paint in photoshop/whatever without image layers.

Agreed, and that parallel is spot on. As context, one of them was tutoring me a bit on animation techniques (not in LW). The way she was constantly adding layers to experiment with approaches and looks, and tweaking how (and how much) layers mixed together to get the look desired, etc. reminded me strongly of how layers are used in Photoshop. When experimenting, she was even using them to enact a kind of undo functionality, where if she disliked how it was going she'd abandon the layer and re-clone from prior or begin over from a blank new layer.

Given those kinds of workflows, I can completely understand why lack of NLA would be a deal-breaker. The more techniques I learn, and the more I work in 3D packages that support NLA, the less willing I am to do without, either.

BokadCastle
08-22-2014, 08:05 PM
hehe yeah. . . You complainers about complainers (not you) do realize you are peeing in the wind right.

Yeah, messy.

lightscape
08-22-2014, 08:29 PM
ALL, literally ALL I'd like from LW 11.7 is a majority of the bugs fixed.

Well, maybe Screamernet simplified. But nothing added. Just fixes.

I agree with bug fixing and screamernet update.
Totally new features reserved for Lightwave 12.

Paul_Boland
08-22-2014, 08:44 PM
I found this old interview with Rob about his "three year roadmap" for Lightwave. The interview is dated 2011 so that roadmap ends this year, 2014. What's next?
http://www.cgchannel.com/2011/06/rob-powers-on-lightwaves-three-year-roadmap/

lightscape
08-22-2014, 09:41 PM
"These probable directions include new dynamics features and the integration of Modeler and Layout.

However, Powers did hint that Bullet physics was due for integration into LightWave (“I will say that dynamics are very important to us”) and that one of the package’s thorniest legacy issues -* the separation of Modeler and Layout into separate applications -* was finally due for resolution.

“Ultimately, I can’t see a future trajectory of our product not including a unified interface for modelling and animation,” he said."



I hope they really did work on this since 2011 behind closed doors and show something with lightwave 12.
3 years of work should be enough to show something if Newtek were fully commited to this goal. If they're just trying to hook people into it will happen in the next version its going to backfire and there would be fewer people upgrading to lw 12.

spherical
08-22-2014, 11:29 PM
Ya know, this borders on a religious war or the Hatfields and McCoys or Republicans and Democrats. Still, I just don't get why people assume that a unified environment is THE default way to work. If I am going to spend my day doing nothing but modeling, why do I need to load, and not use, all of the code that is necessary for lighting, rendering, animation?

IF a unified work environment is implemented, I would seriously hope that the user is given the option of turning it off. Otherwise, LightWave is going to suffer a huge upheaval, because users who are used to, and prefer, two separate, dedicated applications will be forced into what the other camp has been loudly screaming about and we're, no doubt, going to get it shoved down our throats.

Don't answer. It is, at this point, a rhetorical question.

bazsa73
08-22-2014, 11:41 PM
Let's brood over long gone glory, when all was about Babylon 5 and videotoaster and the primeval evil, the one who we do not name, the evil autodesk was only a tiny seed in a black hole far far away.

lightscape
08-22-2014, 11:47 PM
I seriously hope Newtek KNOWS that it can't keep lightwave profitable relying on existing users. They need to attract new users with real money that are used to unified environment.

jeric_synergy
08-23-2014, 12:05 AM
The thing about unified environments is: if ALL you are going to do is create geometry, sure, a separate app is not too big a cross to bear.

BUT, and it's a big but ;) , animation is a lot more than just geometry creation. Drilling a hole in an object, during the animation, is the tip of the iceberg. Matching plates, interactive Weight mapping, and stuff I've never heard of can only be addressed efficiently in a unified environment.

And currently, it's not like we're reaping any benefits in Modeler from the separation: famously Modeler chokes and dies on big meshes.

Even though I've never used a unified environment (C4dL don't count), I can easily see the need for it.

lightscape
08-23-2014, 12:32 AM
And unified environment doesn't mean bloatware. It doesn't mean it will clutter the gui.
Even a tab in layout would do. Its there already anway.
Imagine a modeller inside layout which has a timeline. All you do is keyframe a modelling tool like extrude, boolean, bend, etc, instant animation :D

jeric_synergy
08-23-2014, 12:51 AM
Making the 'plumbing' for that is a HUGE task. Which I'm sure they've been addressing.

spherical
08-23-2014, 03:13 AM
And unified environment doesn't mean bloatware.

And you really know how much code goes into which? More speculation.... the forums are rampant with it. Everyone pushing their position; justifying this or that. Gets tiring. Heck, I even did it just then. :D ENOUGH!

lightscape
08-23-2014, 03:37 AM
And you really know how much code goes into which? More speculation.... the forums are rampant with it.


Same question to you. Do you know how much code when you open a unified appz?
I don't mind they killed core but this kind of thinking that modeller should be modeller and layout is layout is so outdated and obsolete.

lightscape
08-23-2014, 03:50 AM
Making the 'plumbing' for that is a HUGE task. Which I'm sure they've been addressing.

I hope Newtek is not overthinking this task. They shouldn't aim for what softimage and houdini have become with their powerful "architecture". Lightwave sells for 1500usd you can't expect it to compete with highend software. The closest rival lightwave has is Modo.

What Modo did is have a unified environment for modelling, rendering, animation.
Its still as destructive and non-procedural as Lightwave. Doesn't have modifier stacks, etc. Its not as powerful as softimage or houdini yet it doesn't have that stigma, that limitation, that thorniest legacy issue of split app that people from other application will never accept and never buy into lightwave no matter how cheap it becomes. Only some lightwaver, not all, accept this split.

djwaterman
08-23-2014, 06:25 AM
I believe the original intent of the thread was to draw out some official information from among the ranks of LW3DG, well it hasn't worked, they don't play that way. Yet this thread has now become another "rampant speculation' thread, lot's of opinion and knowledgeable insight from people that have no connection to the inner sanctum of LW development. Can we keep this stuff all in one place instead of spawning the same discussion over multiple locations. The most honestly named of all these is the "Rampant Speculation" one, most of this thread belongs there.

erikals
08-23-2014, 07:04 AM
“Ultimately, I can’t see a future trajectory of our product not including a unified interface for modelling and animation,” he said."

looks like unified ain't gonna happen in a long time, but rather that integrated tools are what they will go for as a start

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRu_R3RubYI#t=2m50s

which is ok by me, though this could mean that the challenges of creating Motion Graphics with ease in LightWave alla Cinema4D will remain a challenge. this is because Motion Graphics requires constant tweaking of both models and animation curves, constantly jumping back and forth between these to make changes as you go.

luckily(?) none of the other big apps seem to be heavily into Motion Graphics either (Max, Maya, Modo) so LightWave isn't that far behind those in that regard. however, making LightWave much more Motion Graphics friendly could prove to be a valuable feature for an upcoming LightWave...

motivalex
08-23-2014, 09:39 AM
... making LightWave much more Motion Graphics friendly could prove to be a valuable feature for an upcoming LightWave...

Indeed it would. It's a deciding factor for many current LW users working in motion graphics whether they will leave LW behind and just focus on C4D. The LW group are a smart bunch so I'm sure LW12 will be good whatever they manage to deliver.

jasonwestmas
08-23-2014, 09:46 AM
The LW group are a smart bunch so I'm sure LW12 will be good whatever they manage to deliver.

Good for who exactly? I think people in general forget how vast the market is. I think it would be good for LW3dgroup to narrow their scope of things and create some really outstanding toolsets.

Greenlaw
08-23-2014, 11:05 AM
Remember to pee with the wind, not against it.

G.

jasonwestmas
08-23-2014, 11:10 AM
I prefer it not be windy at all. ;)

cresshead
08-23-2014, 11:45 AM
pee in a vacuum - no one can hear you dribble.

Oedo 808
08-23-2014, 12:55 PM
Any preferences, Hoover, Dyson... a Henry?

gerry_g
08-23-2014, 01:39 PM
Or Blender.............er the one for extracting liquids that is

Vong
08-23-2014, 01:40 PM
You know why you can't hear a Pterodactyl go to the bathroom? Because the 'P' is silent!

At least I brought this back around to 3D... Cause 3D and Dinosaurs go hand in hand! :D

robertoortiz
08-23-2014, 01:50 PM
looks like unified ain't gonna happen in a long time, but rather that integrated tools are what they will go for as a start

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRu_R3RubYI#t=2m50s

which is ok by me, though this could mean that the challenges of creating Motion Graphics with ease in LightWave alla Cinema4D will remain a challenge. this is because Motion Graphics requires constant tweaking of both models and animation curves, constantly jumping back and forth between these to make changes as you go.

luckily(?) none of the other big apps seem to be heavily into Motion Graphics either (Max, Maya, Modo) so LightWave isn't that far behind those in that regard. however, making LightWave much more Motion Graphics friendly could prove to be a valuable feature for an upcoming LightWave...

Great post

jwiede
08-23-2014, 08:58 PM
luckily(?) none of the other big apps seem to be heavily into Motion Graphics either (Max, Maya, Modo) so LightWave isn't that far behind those in that regard.

So in your mind, C4D has much smaller market presence than even modo?

erikals
08-23-2014, 09:11 PM
sorry, wrong definition, but i'm pretty sure you know what i meant.

prometheus
08-23-2014, 10:05 PM
a little of topic maybe, about markets here in sweden...
looking through job ads daily, and what comes up in the 3d biz, is mostly this
for game biz, maya mostly shows up, and 3d max,zbrush and some more..
for viz ...mostly max,rhino,sketchup and cinema4d
for motion graphics mostly cinema, and some movie stuff maya mostly

Houdini is rarely seen too..

Lightwave and modo is rarely seen in the ads, if ever, doesnīt mean they donīt exist.....there could be hidden positions ..or simply companies not in need of any more artist, but still in fact using lightwave and modo.
Through the last 1.5 year Ivé been keeping an eye very frequently on the 3d ads, and I can see an increase of cinema4d related job ads as required skills.

lightscape
08-23-2014, 11:51 PM
There are 70000 registered vray users worldwide for all its platform. You would think it would be bigger for the number 1 off the shelf renderer.
The 3d market is not so big in general. So highend software like houdini sell for high prices because its god like powerful but not mainstream. Lightwave and modo are on the opposite end in the low end market and sell for affordable prices. Expectations should be realistic regarding the "architecture".

Surrealist.
08-24-2014, 02:35 AM
Not necessarily. It is not about the price of software it is about choices. And those past choices led to here. It has all been hashed a zillion times. But at the end of the day LightWave has the architecture it has because of those choices. LightWave and Modo are more or less at the same price point, but because of different development choices in the past have a completely different architecture and Modo then has been able to capitalize on those early choices put in place specifically so they could develop the tools they have today. It was a long methodical process.

Sanchon
08-24-2014, 03:11 AM
...and I can see an increase of cinema4d related job ads as required skills.

This trend will likely change when vRay for Modo will be released - at this time it is at the open beta stage - http://www.v-ray.com/MODO

Wickedpup
08-24-2014, 04:08 AM
We don't need Vray.... :D

Sanchon
08-24-2014, 04:12 AM
We don't need Vray.... :D

We don't need VPR too - VIPER was pretty good :)

Surrealist.
08-24-2014, 05:29 AM
Don't stop there, who needs OGL really. Wire frame was just fine in 2.0.

jasonwestmas
08-24-2014, 08:46 AM
real professionals don't need to undo.

jeric_synergy
08-24-2014, 09:25 AM
LightWave and Modo are more or less at the same price point, but because of different development choices in the past have a completely different architecture and Modo then has been able to capitalize on those early choices put in place specifically so they could develop the tools they have today.
The MODO devs made all their mistakes in Lightwave. Pretty easy to avoid once you've already seen the impact.

Wickedpup
08-24-2014, 09:29 AM
real professionals don't need to undo.
or scroll wheel zoom :dance:

jeric_synergy
08-24-2014, 09:36 AM
You guys use mice? Pshhh.

prometheus
08-24-2014, 09:37 AM
The MODO devs made all their mistakes in Lightwave. Pretty easy to avoid once you've already seen the impact.

Think that is to generally spoken..
they actually carried on with some mistakes in modo, switching between viewport full screen mode to quad view in icon clicks was messed up at one time, but probably fixed now, then again you could argue that was a newly introducted error, since
in lightwave it works nicely.

they do implement older "lightwave tools" in a faster pace and mostly often better than many lightwave tools, then again it all seem to suffer from instability and slow handling of stuff, slower navigation, slower simulation of particles etc..though it has been advanced to more
advanced structure and includes bullet dynamics and sculpting of particles etc.
the voxel system is to be faster and more advanced.

Greenlaw
08-24-2014, 09:52 AM
they (modo) do implement older "lightwave tools" in a faster pace and mostly often better than many lightwave tools...

Not Rail Cloning though. I sometimes need to apply Stuart Aitken's hair modeling technique (http://www.worley.com/Tutorials/StuTut/index.htm), but I can't do that using Modo's similar tool (as of 601 anyway,) There are a few other tools in modo the are similar but don't work quite the same way.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not anti-modo. I like both modo and Lightwave Modeler but because neither one is a perfect modeling package, I also have to rely on both. :)

G.

jeric_synergy
08-24-2014, 10:15 AM
There's been plenty of time, of course, to introduce New, Shiny errors of their own.

During all this talk of other apps it's good to remember "the grass always seems greener."

Surrealist.
08-24-2014, 10:34 AM
The MODO devs made all their mistakes in Lightwave. Pretty easy to avoid once you've already seen the impact.

Well yeah, Of course they did. They moved on and created Modo, while LightWave was left as the mistake they made. And that is the point- purely from a technical standpoint.

LightWave's exact legacy is simply what was left behind as a bad idea and additionally bad architecture. And it has nothing to do with the price point of the software which was my original point.

Blender Modo and LightWave are now the low end solutions with varying degrees of drawbacks and limitations. LightWave of the three, is the one suffering from out-dated and outmoded workflows that are apparently hardwired into the architecture or it would have been changed by now. Modo comes in second place because it still has some bad LW legacy in it. Blender probably rules in the "modern" realm but has another set of draw backs and limitations.

For more options you do have to pay more.

But you should not have to pay more just for a good basic working system like you can get from Modo and Blender. So, yeah, LightWave users should expect it at this price point. I don't see an issue with that.

Do you?

jeric_synergy
08-24-2014, 11:31 AM
Nope. I've known it was crazy that the infrastructure apparently (from a user standpoint) was static for so sooo soooooooooooo long. I'm not sure WHY it went untouched for so long.

I'd ask "Well, that info exists, obviously, why can't {whatever it was needing to get done}?" Over and over the answer was "That data isn't available, due to the architecture." Okayyyyy, and I'd hope that it'd be addressed. It wasn't, over and over. My worries probably started at 6.0, and I'm no power user. I can't imagine the torture for those familiar with more advanced architectures.

I don't know what internal management issues were the cause of this huge delay. One would think that on the exit of the original developers, THAT might have been a good time to take a hard look at what NewTek had. Water under the bridge, fer shurrr, but a cautionary tale.

It short: I agree.

prometheus
08-24-2014, 11:46 AM
Not Rail Cloning tough. I sometimes need to apply Stuart Aitken's hair modeling technique (http://www.worley.com/Tutorials/StuTut/index.htm), but I can't do that using Modo's similar tool (as of 601 anyway,) There are a few other tools in modo the are similar but don't work quite the same way.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not anti-modo. I like both modo and Lightwave Modeler but because neither one is a perfect modeling package, I also have to rely on both. :)

G.

Agreed...when I tested modo...it was some time though, making spline curves and also spline patching was much better to work with lightwave, but there you go..many other modeling tools is better worked out in modo and some other still remains better to use in lightwave it seems, guess it comes down to what you use most, what you feel most comfortable with and what limits in the tools you in fact can endure and do workarounds for, think it will be a constant battle between the two apps, though it seems like the modo team seems to be peaking at lightwave tools more and then steal and enhance stuff, rather than the opposite.
the profile/preset tools in modo came out some time after victor sort of invented it for lwcad, but the modo team incorporated that stuff nativly in modo.

jwiede
08-24-2014, 06:30 PM
the profile/preset tools in modo came out some time after victor sort of invented it for lwcad

Viktor's done a lot for Lightwave with LWCAD, but such features were not "invented" by him. 3DSMAX, Maya, C4D, and other packages had parametric object modifier and preset functionality well before LWCAD.

Also, the "new tools" in LW11 show strong modo tool UX influences in their design, for example, so I'm pretty doubtful you'll be able to show how modo, on balance, takes more from LW than LW takes from it. When it is features/technology that Max, Maya, C4D, etc. had for long periods ahead of either modo or LW, calling that "stealing from LW" is specious in any case.

Sanchon
08-24-2014, 06:56 PM
How Lightwave would looks in the past and in the moment without Fprime, HD Instance, TrueArts, Denis Pontonnier, DB&W and WTools3D ? You know what I have in mind....

hrgiger
08-24-2014, 07:03 PM
Viktor's done a lot for Lightwave with LWCAD, but such features were not "invented" by him. 3DSMAX, Maya, C4D, and other packages had parametric object modifier and preset functionality well before LWCAD.

Also, the "new tools" in LW11 show strong modo tool UX influences in their design, for example, so I'm pretty doubtful you'll be able to show how modo, on balance, takes more from LW than LW takes from it. When it is features/technology that Max, Maya, C4D, etc. had for long periods ahead of either modo or LW, calling that "stealing from LW" is specious in any case.

Well in the case of some of the modeling tools in Modo 401 I believe, you could clearly see that they were copying some of LWCAD's features. Viktor has also said that Brad has been trying to nab him for a long time.

Sanchon
08-24-2014, 07:08 PM
Modo has IFW2 textures implemented too - http://docs.luxology.com/modo/801/help/pages/shaderendering/EmodoTextures.html#page=page-5 - scroll down, they have broken www page.

jwiede
08-24-2014, 07:17 PM
Modo has IFW2 textures implemented too - http://docs.luxology.com/modo/501/help/pages/shaderendering/EmodoTextures.html#page=page-1

Actually, those same shaders have been packaged and sold for many different 3D packages for ages, they weren't "exclusive" to Lightwave in the first place.

See http://www.shaders.co.uk for the commercial ones, but they've also licensed them to companies like NextLimit (they're included in Maxwell V3).

jwiede
08-24-2014, 07:56 PM
Well in the case of some of the modeling tools in Modo 401 I believe, you could clearly see that they were copying some of LWCAD's features.

If you're talking about the 401 "Asset Library" functionality, that's ridiculous -- LWCAD absolutely did not originate the notion of content libraries or parametric object presets (what you're suggesting). C4D and Max have had content libraries that could contain parametric assemblies for decades, and the CAD pgms that strongly influenced and originated both 3D apps have had such libraries for decades before them, in turn.

Luxology was deeply involved in relationships with a couple of CAD vendors at that point, so it is much more likely those CAD vendors were the impetus for such functionality (the asset library implementation in modo is very similar to CAD asset library implementations).

Most of the other functionality in 401 was around rendering and animation, so if not the asset library functionality, you'll need to be more specific in your reference.

prometheus
08-24-2014, 07:59 PM
Viktor's done a lot for Lightwave with LWCAD, but such features were not "invented" by him. 3DSMAX, Maya, C4D, and other packages had parametric object modifier and preset functionality well before LWCAD.

Also, the "new tools" in LW11 show strong modo tool UX influences in their design, for example, so I'm pretty doubtful you'll be able to show how modo, on balance, takes more from LW than LW takes from it. When it is features/technology that Max, Maya, C4D, etc. had for long periods ahead of either modo or LW, calling that "stealing from LW" is specious in any case.


i agree with some of those reprimands :)
not all, but some.

I would be glad though if I can see more of stealing from modo from the lightwave group, I donīt see that as a bad thing for us, I especially want sldasm/prt import and quad tesselation, and volumetric item mode for voxels :)

Sanchon
08-24-2014, 08:06 PM
At the moment the maker of mArch ( replacement of LWCAD for Modo - http://march.thethirdguild.com/modo/index.html ) working with procedural modelling tools for Modo...

hrgiger
08-24-2014, 08:10 PM
I'm talking about the asset library, the bevel profiles, snapping (as in 801 and earlier implmentations).... If you've been on the Lux forums for any length of time you have to see all the people who had been asking for LWCAD features (as well as the idea of hiring Viktor for Modo) thrown around. I don't remember the specific reveal, I just remember thinking that several of the modeling enhancements looked directly aped from LWCAD.

But then we all know after their latest product Colorway that they have no problem aping other products.

lightscape
08-24-2014, 08:10 PM
Not necessarily. It is not about the price of software it is about choices.

Are you referring to users or development? They are connected, too.
Its always about the prices.
Sell to high, nobody would buy. Sell to low, no money to grow.
Lightwave has always been about getting it done but not costing an arm and a leg.
Lw, modo, blender for lowend market.
Houdini, Ad for mid, high market.
C4d has a unique market for broadcast and motiongraphics.

Modo did make the same mistakes not starting from totally new architecture that would have allowed non-destructive workflow, modifiers, good sdk.
http://community.thefoundry.co.uk/discussion/topic.aspx?f=4&t=91517&page=2

They are adding workflow elements that are inconsistent to modo like that animation swipe. Its getting too clicky and to do something its becoming more and more not direct to the point. But few criticize modo because its a unified app and cheap. Raise the price and people will be more critical of it.

jwiede
08-24-2014, 08:19 PM
I would be glad though if I can see more of stealing from modo from the lightwave group

As would I, though in any case, it isn't "stealing", because no ownable property is converted. It is just the evolution and integration of new (and old) ideas, and very, very few of the ideas in question definably originated in either LW or modo.

prometheus
08-24-2014, 08:22 PM
At the moment the maker of mArch ( replacement of LWCAD for Modo - http://march.thethirdguild.com/modo/index.html ) working with procedural modelling tools for Modo...

didnīt know about that one, interesting, looks like the casement window script seems a bit better than using lw cad window settings, will have to follow that.


As would I, though in any case, it isn't "stealing", because no ownable property is converted. It is just the evolution and integration of new (and old) ideas, and very, very few of the ideas in question definably originated in either LW or modo.

Agreed.

jwiede
08-24-2014, 08:47 PM
I'm talking about the asset library, the bevel profiles, snapping (as in 801 and earlier implmentations).... If you've been on the Lux forums for any length of time you have to see all the people who had been asking for LWCAD features (as well as the idea of hiring Viktor for Modo) thrown around. I don't remember the specific reveal, I just remember thinking that several of the modeling enhancements looked directly aped from LWCAD.

None of those features you describe are "original" to LWCAD. In case you hadn't noticed, modo has a LOT of CAD users as users (in part because modo's always had strong CAD interchange import/export). Users who never used LW or LWCAD have been asking for such functionality in modo for years because it is what they had/have in the CAD applications they use (and in many cases said as much). Both modo and LWCAD are simply replicating functionality that has been present in CAD apps for far longer.

jwiede
08-24-2014, 09:08 PM
Lightwave has always been about getting it done but not costing an arm and a leg.

It isn't really accurate to say LW has "always been about getting it done but not costing an arm and a leg." LW's pricing used to be much, much higher in the past, well into the "arm&leg" territory.

Megalodon2.0
08-24-2014, 09:15 PM
It isn't really accurate to say LW has "always been about getting it done but not costing an arm and a leg." LW's pricing used to be much, much higher in the past, well into the "arm&leg" territory.

As I recall... wasn't it something in the $2200 to $2500 range?

erikals
08-24-2014, 09:16 PM
yep.

Chris S. (Fez)
08-24-2014, 09:52 PM
Newtek has a long tradition of empowering artists and technicians with affordable tools that rival high end solutions. Tricaster is incredibly affordable for what it does...and so was Lightwave in its time. Lightwave absolutely ruled broadcast for years because of its price point and intuitive toolset. Obviously, with the release of Blender and the relatively slow pace of LW development, times have changed. But Lightwave is still a remarkably affordable and reliable program relative to other commercial offerings.

jeric_synergy
08-24-2014, 10:05 PM
Newtek has a long tradition of empowering artists and technicians with affordable tools that rival high end solutions. Tricaster is incredibly affordable for what it does...and so was Lightwave in its time. Lightwave absolutely ruled broadcast for years because of its price point and intuitive toolset. Obviously, with the release of Blender and the relatively slow pace of LW development, times have changed. But Lightwave is still a remarkably affordable and reliable program relative to other commercial offerings.
(emphasis added) ---That is about as even handed as it gets. :thumbsup:

chikega
08-24-2014, 10:09 PM
Actually, those same shaders have been packaged and sold for many different 3D packages for ages, they weren't "exclusive" to Lightwave in the first place.

See http://www.shaders.co.uk for the commercial ones, but they've also licensed them to companies like NextLimit (they're included in Maxwell V3).

IFW was created for Imagine For Windows originally ... yes, I'm dating myself. :)

Greenlaw
08-24-2014, 10:25 PM
It isn't really accurate to say LW has "always been about getting it done but not costing an arm and a leg." LW's pricing used to be much, much higher in the past, well into the "arm&leg" territory.

Back in '97, I cross-graded from Electric Image to Lightwave for about $1100 and it was considered a good deal. I think the full retail price was around $1800 or so. Unfortunately for me, cross-grading to the Mac version of 5.0 wasn't such a wise thing--Modeler was pretty decent but Layout was just awful because it crashed constantly on my PowerComputing Mac clone. Fortunately, I only needed Modeler because EI didn't have any real modeling tools at the time. A few months later, the much more usable 5.5 came out and I've been a loyal Lightwave user ever since.

Sigh...stories like that make me sound old. :)

G.

lightscape
08-24-2014, 10:33 PM
It isn't really accurate to say LW has "always been about getting it done but not costing an arm and a leg." LW's pricing used to be much, much higher in the past, well into the "arm&leg" territory.

You want to compare it to the other appz back then which was 10-20k.

jwiede
08-24-2014, 10:34 PM
IFW was created for Imagine For Windows originally ... yes, I'm dating myself. :)

Well, IIRC the "real name" was "Enhance:<name of package>" and has continued as that in some cases (Enhance:modo and Enhance:C4D are examples). I'm reasonably sure that name (and product) actually predates Imagine for Windows, back to Amiga days.

jasonwestmas
08-24-2014, 10:35 PM
I got LW 7 for 2,000 bucks and then for 395 I think I got LW8,5 and the whole LW 9 series. Granted I bought a lot of plugins for lw over the years.

jwiede
08-24-2014, 10:40 PM
As I recall... wasn't it something in the $2200 to $2500 range?

Hmm, I recall the first few standalone Windows releases as significantly more expensive than that (circa '94-95), but could easily be misremembering.

jeric_synergy
08-24-2014, 11:12 PM
Back in '97, I cross-graded from Electric Image to Lightwave....
G.
Whatever happened to EI?

I had no experience w/it, but all the renders seemed overexposed to me.

Wickedpup
08-25-2014, 01:29 AM
Whatever happened to EI?
Still alive.....however a bit overpriced considering what you get. No modeller, and you need to buy plugins to get a lot of features that is common in other software (like SDS and instancing). Suspect that old customers upgrading plugins is part of how they manage to stay alive. Though not a viable way to attract new customers and expand your user base.

http://www.eias3d.com/

Shiny_Mike
08-25-2014, 01:31 AM
Whatever happened to EI?

I had no experience w/it, but all the renders seemed overexposed to me.

Dunno, but one of the founders of EI is the LW renderer lead dev, I imagine he gave us VPR and the other modern rendering improvements. He's big pimpin' :thumbsup:

hrgiger
08-25-2014, 02:32 AM
None of those features you describe are "original" to LWCAD. In case you hadn't noticed, modo has a LOT of CAD users as users (in part because modo's always had strong CAD interchange import/export). Users who never used LW or LWCAD have been asking for such functionality in modo for years because it is what they had/have in the CAD applications they use (and in many cases said as much). Both modo and LWCAD are simply replicating functionality that has been present in CAD apps for far longer.

John, it doesn't really matter where the features originated. I never stated that Viktor invented these features, but it would be naïve to think that modeling improvements in Modo weren't influenced by the fact of those features coming to LWCAD and the number of Modo users who wanted those features in Modo.

- - - Updated - - -

Retail price of LW6.5 when I bought in was $2495.

cresshead
08-25-2014, 07:00 AM
so the last 2 pages are about what lightwave used to cost...and lwcad type tools appearing in modo..

i remember a softimage guy back in 1999 at a show in London saying UV mapping first appeared in softimage..then everyone copied it.
...his point was jump on board with softimage as "we invent stuff"
...my point was..well everyone has uv mapping now...so no big deal...i'll get 3dsmax..it's Ģ13,000 cheaper and also has uv mapping :)

note: newtek didn't invent lwcad, it's a 3rd party plugin developer.

note: that inventive company - softimage couldn't sell enough seats at their pricing...the company got sold off from Avid who was losing money hand over fist ... at a discount to Autodesk and is now a "end of line" product... softimage/XSI is a dead product as of April 2015 it's tomb stone will read..xsi (sumatra) took too long to develop...Maya replaced most of the old softimage seats in studios...they did try price slashing to generate a larger user base but it was too late by then.

so?

what's going on with lightwave?

brent3d
08-25-2014, 07:42 AM
note: that inventive company - softimage couldn't sell enough seats at their pricing...the company got sold off from Avid who was losing money hand over fist ... at a discount to Autodesk and is now a "end of line" product... softimage/XSI is a dead product as of April 2015 it's tomb stone will read..xsi (sumatra) took too long to develop...Maya replaced most of the old softimage seats in studios...they did try price slashing to generate a larger user base but it was too late by then.

Actually both Maya and Softimage were having major troubles..which is why they were sold off. Autodesk began to quickly offer Maya to their existing customers at a lower price and capitalizing on Maya's high-end film VFX track record. Sad for XSi users though, simply gorgeous piece of 3D software.

as far as LW? great improvement in 11.6.3 and very stable compared to other applications twice it's price. I look forward to a major update to Modeler, maybe similar to Modo 201 or 301, I think that's reasonable.

tyrot
08-25-2014, 07:51 AM
i think this thread needs - a word from Mr. Powers :) Couple of insight - about - ikeda's decision, updates... what to expect.. etc..

Greenlaw
08-25-2014, 09:18 AM
You want to compare it to the other appz back then which was 10-20k.

You're right. I seem to recall way back when Maya first came out, the supervisor where I worked at the time said we only had one license because it cost 40k. I'm not sure how accurate that figure was but considering the cost of other tools of the trade in mid to late '90's, it probably wasn't far off. Even then, Lightwave was considered a bargain at full price.

- - - Updated - - -


i think this thread needs - a word from Mr. Powers :) Couple of insight - about - ikeda's decision, updates... what to expect.. etc..

I kinda forgot what this thread is about. Maybe I should re-read it. :p

Paul_Boland
08-25-2014, 09:28 AM
i think this thread needs - a word from Mr. Powers :) Couple of insight - about - ikeda's decision, updates... what to expect.. etc..

+1. Would love to hear something from the development team. It's been quiet long enough and the user base wants some info ;).

brent3d
08-25-2014, 09:36 AM
You're right. I seem to recall way back when Maya first came out, the supervisor where I worked at the time said we only had one license because it cost 40k. I'm not sure how accurate that figure was but considering the cost of other tools of the trade in mid to late '90's, it probably wasn't far off. Even then, Lightwave was considered a bargain at full price.

- - - Updated - - -





I kinda forgot what this thread is about. Maybe I should re-read it. :p

Both full versions of Maya and XSi were retailing for $6,999.99 just prior to being sold off by Alias and Avid, then Autodesk just lowered the prices into the 3k-4k range for the 3Ds Max user base.
A lil word from the LWgroup would be good though, everyone likes a lil hype-up every now and then.

jwiede
08-25-2014, 11:56 AM
Actually both Maya and Softimage were having major troubles.

How was Alias "having major troubles" precisely? It had just come off an excellent couple years with major Oscar wins in 2003, very strong Maya releases, etc. The value of the company had gone from $57M in 2003 (price it was sold from SGI) to $197M in 2005 (price Autodesk paid to acquire it). A nearly 4x increase in raw value over a period of 2 years is not particularly an indication of a "financially troubled" company. There's very little similarity between the condition of Softimage at the time Autodesk acquired it from Avid, and the condition of Alias at its acquisition. In contrast, Softimage was sold to Autodesk for pennies on the dollar compared to prior sale valuation.

Autodesk was on a huge buying spree around 2005 due to having too much cash on hand. Alias looked like a good addition (which, given how much revenue Alias products have brought Autodesk since, has kind of proven out with time). Autodesk got more than just Maya out of the Alias deal: Alias had acquired Kaydara just prior to being acquired themselves by Autodesk, so in buying Alias, Autodesk acquired not just Maya, but also MotionBuilder (and Alias also sold Sketchbook, a rather popular 2D drawing package). They also acquired Alias' patent and technology portfolio, which was very substantial.

Greenlaw
08-25-2014, 12:35 PM
Whatever happened to EI?

I had no experience w/it, but all the renders seemed overexposed to me.

The EI render engine was actually quite nice and probably the best renderer for the Mac platform for its time (late nineties) . Some of the original developers eventually came to Newtek to work on Lightwave and the render engine improvements we saw a few years ago were the result of that. At least that's my understanding.

As for EI, after I switched to Lightwave, I haven't paid any attention to it. I had purchased EI Broadcast with the understanding that EI Modeler would be available in six months or so but it wound up taking about two years. Obviously I didn't wait that long--I had work to do.

G.

chikega
08-25-2014, 12:40 PM
That is correct. I was drawing attention to what IFW originally stood for. IFW = Imagine for Windows

jwiede
08-25-2014, 12:45 PM
The render engine was actually quite nice for its time (late nineties). Some of the original developers eventually came to Newtek to work on Lightwave and the render engine improvements we saw a few years ago were the result of that. At least that's my understanding.

That's correct. Jay Roth and Mark Granger were founders at EI.

Snosrap
08-25-2014, 02:40 PM
Autodesk was on a huge buying spree around 2005 due to having too much cash on hand. Alias looked like a good addition (which, given how much revenue Alias products have brought Autodesk since, has kind of proven out with time). Autodesk got more than just Maya out of the Alias deal: Alias had acquired Kaydara just prior to being acquired themselves by Autodesk, so in buying Alias, Autodesk acquired not just Maya, but also MotionBuilder (and Alias also sold Sketchbook, a rather popular 2D drawing package). They also acquired Alias' patent and technology portfolio, which was very substantial. Not to mention the Alias products for automotive design. Which I think was the real reason for the acquisition - Maya was a side attraction. :)

Chris S. (Fez)
08-25-2014, 03:03 PM
If we are not going to get a dev update, let alone a new release, I think a bug-squashing patch might be in order.

jeric_synergy
08-25-2014, 03:08 PM
??? Dev update? You mean 'news'?

For me, I'm always surprised when there's new features in a point upgrade, unless they're very incremental. (Like adding multi-select to something. That's more of an oversight than a new feature.)

brent3d
08-25-2014, 03:16 PM
How was Alias "having major troubles" precisely? It had just come off an excellent couple years with major Oscar wins in 2003, very strong Maya releases, etc. The value of the company had gone from $57M in 2003 (price it was sold from SGI) to $197M in 2005 (price Autodesk paid to acquire it). A nearly 4x increase in raw value over a period of 2 years is not particularly an indication of a "financially troubled" company. There's very little similarity between the condition of Softimage at the time Autodesk acquired it from Avid, and the condition of Alias at its acquisition. In contrast, Softimage was sold to Autodesk for pennies on the dollar compared to prior sale valuation.

Autodesk was on a huge buying spree around 2005 due to having too much cash on hand. Alias looked like a good addition (which, given how much revenue Alias products have brought Autodesk since, has kind of proven out with time). Autodesk got more than just Maya out of the Alias deal: Alias had acquired Kaydara just prior to being acquired themselves by Autodesk, so in buying Alias, Autodesk acquired not just Maya, but also MotionBuilder (and Alias also sold Sketchbook, a rather popular 2D drawing package). They also acquired Alias' patent and technology portfolio, which was very substantial.

You left out the big one, the Alias Automotive Suite used by GM and other automotive companies throughout the world. So why did Alias do it? As you remember both XSi and Maya products found themselves out of the loop a bit in pricing in regards to game studio software, resulting in both applications generating watered down versions of themselves shortly before being sold. So maybe Alias just cashed in at the height of the game when they were on a roll and Maya sold for 6k...or maybe not, and yes Autodesk was on a huge buying spree, for software being sold.
My point was that both Maya and XSi were suffering at 6k pricing and it is only Autodesk's purchase and 50% price drop that brought Maya to the forefront for game production usage and school purchases. But Autodesk didn't market XSi the same way as Maya although it is much more user friendly and well designed in my opinion (sad), but o well.

Chris S. (Fez)
08-25-2014, 03:30 PM
For me, I'm always surprised when there's new features in a point upgrade, unless they're very incremental. (Like adding multi-select to something.


I agree. The pace of development is too intolerably slow to package features with bug fixes. Since license transfer fee announcements and word of David leaving Newtek also counts as "News", I felt compelled to be specific: if a feature release or an update on LW development is not imminent then a patch would be most appreciated.

jeric_synergy
08-25-2014, 03:49 PM
.... a patch would be most appreciated.
As they ever are. :thumbsup:

jwiede
08-25-2014, 07:45 PM
I agree. The pace of development is too intolerably slow to package features with bug fixes. Since license transfer fee announcements and word of David leaving Newtek also counts as "News", I felt compelled to be specific: if a feature release or an update on LW development is not imminent then a patch would be most appreciated.

I'd like to see them move more in line with competitors in terms of having regular patch update releases -- even quarterly would be a good first step, aiming for monthly to bimonthly. Fix-only releases have significantly reduced regression testing requirements versus feature releases, so getting them out more frequently (and more reliably periodic) should not be a huge effort to implement. Periodic fix releases will also reduce each release's scope (less "packing the bus" knowing another is coming shortly) and that can further reduce the scope of regression testing needed, allowing lower latency between patch releases.

The current approach of loading fixes in with feature releases, as Chris S mentions, creates intolerable delays in fixes reaching LW customers.

jeric_synergy
08-25-2014, 08:17 PM
Quarterly would be better than "whenever".

Whatever's been fixed at the quarter, ships. No waiting around for some illusory quota.

lightscape
08-25-2014, 09:02 PM
when Maya first came out, the supervisor where I worked at the time said we only had one license because it cost 40k.

Wow was it ever that high?
Like I said its all about prices. Expect big architectural core rewrite for lightwave, expect to pay big, not 995usd for upgrades that span 3 years worth of free updates. You have to pay more than that. Retooling lightwave(adding modelling tools to layout) is more realistic than a total rewrite.
All the other highend packages are on annual subscription. Even Modo will be going the annual upgrade route after being purchased by the Foundry. I expect a lot of modo users to be looking at cinema4d if the price difference becomes narrow between the two.
T4d, etc have moved on to Blender. Some people also are saying if the price for modo goes up they will stay with whatever version they're at.
Its all about prices.

Lewis
08-26-2014, 12:43 AM
. I expect a lot of modo users to be looking at cinema4d if the price difference becomes narrow between the two.
T4d, etc have moved on to Blender. Some people also are saying if the price for modo goes up they will stay with whatever version they're at.
Its all about prices.

Sure, BUT question is why nobody of them is seeing LW as viable solution to jump/get back on since LW is not on subscription (yet) ? I guess once you start work/adapt on integrated solution/app it's very hard to go back to split app nature.

lightscape
08-26-2014, 02:41 AM
Sure, BUT question is why nobody of them is seeing LW as viable solution to jump/get back on since LW is not on subscription (yet) ? I guess once you start work/adapt on integrated solution/app it's very hard to go back to split app nature.

Because lightwave is still a split app so why would they jump back. If modeller was integrated into layout maybe some of them will as long as the price is right.

But they're also complaining about the same things.

http://community.thefoundry.co.uk/discussion/topic.aspx?f=4&t=91517&page=2

I've also been waiting for modo to have non destructive workflow, parametric modelling and modifiers but not happening in the next few years. Not without raising the price and if they do it, it will be in-line with the pricing of the Foundry's other products which is more targetted for high end studios. So I don't really see the advantage of me using both modo and lightwave anymore. Too many features overlap but lacking some of the features from other highend appz. I'm content with lightwave if it just integrated modeller. Not looking for the next softimage, houdini for this price.

Surrealist.
08-26-2014, 03:28 AM
You should not be looking for those things for this price. (Edit well I don't know... read on... maybe you should be... he he he)

That said. Softimage - which you can still buy and will be good for a long time - you can get for a fraction of cost compared to the features you get. But compared to LightWave, really there is no comparison. But for double the price of LW you are getting far more than double the features and more than LightWave, frankky will ever have. Maya, is on another level than Softimage as far as artist friendly. Slightly different workflow but tools that are much more suited for Character Animation and Character animation Dynamics workflow than XSI. For around the same price. And price/feature comparison. Really no comparison.

As for Houdini, there is now an indie version.

http://www.sidefx.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=244&Itemid=399

So if price is the only deciding factor, and you are an independent. Price is no longer a factor for Houdini if you need that in your workflow.

LightWave at its price point there is really no excuse for it being so far behind the curve technologically. But it is. Even if it had current workflows (single app modeling/rigging/Animation non destructive modeling etc) it would still lack the high end features available by more pricy alternatives. And by the time it gets this, those other apps will likely start to come down in price - I predict - while also offering more features and expand on current workflows in place -which will leave little room for Modo and LightWave to compete.

A very large force in this equation is Blender. Which for free already has a modern workflow with a non-destructive modifier stack - better than both XSI and Maya combined by far, has some very nice rigging and not entirely bad animation workflow, even has an Animall Addon which allows you to animate vertexes and well a lot of things. Pretty incredible.

As Blender develops and starts to chew up a lower end market it has to have the effect on pricing and availability of software.

Adobe took an aggressive and controversial stand on pricing. But in the aftermath of that more companies are following suit. AD, Now Side effects, of course with the choice to rent software.

And this Indie offering is also becoming popular with other software as well. More apps are offering tiered pricing and acknowledging the lower end indie market which until now Blender has pretty much ruled.

Even Renderman has dropped in price and now offering a free version for non-commercial use. You can argue the reason why Renderman has dropped in price. True, but looking at the overall trends in the market it is the same as we are experiencing as freelancers. Customers want more and for less and in less time. So software companies have to step up and offer more for less and tools that work faster to get a result, as well as service a lower end market and greatly reduced prices.

So really LightWave and Modo are not even in the lower end anymore if you look at it in that light.

They really have to step it up.

LightWave's advantage is in an existing user base who depend on it. And the fact that they can still make a better software with each release and hopefully add some features that attract people. I think they will. But to survive and develop and expand I am of the opinion after writing all of this garbage that perhaps.... they need to think about opening up to this indie market, offer an option to rent or both. As well as a free educational version.

It would seem to me that anything they can do to attract the broader lower end market would pay off... just rambling.

brent3d
08-26-2014, 07:27 AM
You should not be looking for those things for this price. (Edit well I don't know... read on... maybe you should be... he he he)

That said. Softimage - which you can still buy and will be good for a long time - you can get for a fraction of cost compared to the features you get. But compared to LightWave, really there is no comparison. But for double the price of LW you are getting far more than double the features and more than LightWave, frankky will ever have. Maya, is on another level than Softimage as far as artist friendly. Slightly different workflow but tools that are much more suited for Character Animation and Character animation Dynamics workflow than XSI. For around the same price. And price/feature comparison. Really no comparison.


LightWave at its price point there is really no excuse for it being so far behind the curve technologically. But it is. Even if it had current workflows (single app modeling/rigging/Animation non destructive modeling etc) it would still lack the high end features available by more pricy alternatives. And by the time it gets this, those other apps will likely start to come down in price - I predict - while also offering more features and expand on current workflows in place -which will leave little room for Modo and LightWave to compete.

So really LightWave and Modo are not even in the lower end anymore if you look at it in that light.

They really have to step it up.

LightWave's advantage is in an existing user base who depend on it. And the fact that they can still make a better software with each release and hopefully add some features that attract people. I think they will. But to survive and develop and expand I am of the opinion after writing all of this garbage that perhaps.... they need to think about opening up to this indie market, offer an option to rent or both. As well as a free educational version.

It would seem to me that anything they can do to attract the broader lower end market would pay off... just rambling.

Couldn't disagree with you more. Although we have derailed this thread the point that needs to be made is that it's all about marketing and the perception generated from it. Maya only became wildly popular over XSi after it was purchased by Autodesk, bundled and heavily marketed to schools and other businesses. Where I taught Game Art & Design, the school cut costs by dropping "Alias" Maya in favor for Autodesk 3Ds Max since Maya was taking to long to learn for most of the art students, but a couple of years later Autodesk offered schools Autodesk Maya in a bundle and at a very low price so it found it's way back in. Then Autodesk, in a surprise move, made those 3D bundles free to students in response to the $100 academic price range of LW and other apps like Modo. How do you compete with that type of Walmart action? As a 3DViz Director, Autodesk marketed to us, along with HP, that if we proved we were using Autodesk Maya on our projects that we could win a grant for 10 HP workstations... now that's an incentive..lol..and all part of marketing. No other company has that level of marketing power and entrenchment in the schools...none...and no software will gain a wider user base without first being in schools, that's the battle ground. Does that rule LW and Modo out? No way! It just makes the fight harder in the face of a monopoly (that I thought everyone would be resisting by now). Autodesk is telling everyone what they want them to use and when and how they want them to use it...soon they will phase out 3DsMax and be down to just Maya...what a crazy world.
All the 3D suites can get the job done, just Lightwave gets it done faster and cheaper but it needs to be in the schools and small businesses need incentives to purchase it in order for the user base to truly grow.

jasonwestmas
08-26-2014, 08:18 AM
I see your point Brent but software still speaks for itself. . . of course. Marketing is only a gateway, what happens on the other side is up to good development strategy and design.

Point being that marketing really isn't any more important than the software. I think that people in general catch on to what is dependable software and what isn't.

robertoortiz
08-26-2014, 08:24 AM
I agree on the point of Schools beign the gateway to wider acceptance.
It is long term strtegy and it tend to bear fruit in the long term.

(Just ask Apple)

That is why even Autodesk is concerned about the wide acceptance of Blender at the student level.

brent3d
08-26-2014, 09:12 AM
I agree on the point of Schools beign the gateway to wider acceptance.
It is long term strtegy and it tend to bear fruit in the long term.

(Just ask Apple)

That is why even Autodesk is concerned about the wide acceptance of Blender at the student level.

Perfect example.
It's a back and forth relationship, schools reach out to local businesses to see what software they are using but also local businesses are forced to cater at times to the software that students have learned (real world example "all the newly graduated students that are being interviewed for the job only know Maya, maybe we should order Maya for the studio then?"). There are millions of newly graduated art students compared to the a few art related businesses, my point is the new work force in a large part dictates what software is being used locally, but the schools are first enticed to order a specific software through marketing and incentives. I personally have ordered multiple seats of Lightwave and Modo for the schools I've taught at as well as for the studio's I've worked for, but I can't tell you how many times I've had a Chair of a dept or Designer of a studio ask about Maya because of an email they got from Autodesk or because it's all the new interns/applicants know how to use.

Surrealist.
08-26-2014, 11:09 AM
Couldn't disagree with you more. Although we have derailed this thread the point that needs to be made is that it's all about marketing and the perception generated from it. Maya only became wildly popular over XSi after it was purchased by Autodesk, bundled and heavily marketed to schools and other businesses. Where I taught Game Art & Design, the school cut costs by dropping "Alias" Maya in favor for Autodesk 3Ds Max since Maya was taking to long to learn for most of the art students, but a couple of years later Autodesk offered schools Autodesk Maya in a bundle and at a very low price so it found it's way back in. Then Autodesk, in a surprise move, made those 3D bundles free to students in response to the $100 academic price range of LW and other apps like Modo. How do you compete with that type of Walmart action? As a 3DViz Director, Autodesk marketed to us, along with HP, that if we proved we were using Autodesk Maya on our projects that we could win a grant for 10 HP workstations... now that's an incentive..lol..and all part of marketing. No other company has that level of marketing power and entrenchment in the schools...none...and no software will gain a wider user base without first being in schools, that's the battle ground. Does that rule LW and Modo out? No way! It just makes the fight harder in the face of a monopoly (that I thought everyone would be resisting by now). Autodesk is telling everyone what they want them to use and when and how they want them to use it...soon they will phase out 3DsMax and be down to just Maya...what a crazy world.
All the 3D suites can get the job done, just Lightwave gets it done faster and cheaper but it needs to be in the schools and small businesses need incentives to purchase it in order for the user base to truly grow.

Interesting info about what was happening in the schools. I do think it is a combination of a lot of things to make something like Maya get as much use as it does, not the least of which is money spent on development.

Marketing helps. Certainly. I am not sure what part you are disagreeing with because I don't remember saying anything that went against what you pointed out I mean directly anyway.

Is it all only about marketing? No absolutely not. I don't think. But it is part of the package.

At the heart of it is the tools. And as a long time LightWave user who also now uses Maya and has used XSI fairly extensively and also currently uses Blender I can just say from direct experience that there is no way any tool will find its way into my arsenal on marketing alone. But, accessibility does make a difference. And it has made a huge difference for me. Having access to tools to learn about them, having tutorials available etc.

Just take Houdini for example. This is an expensive piece of software. And I imagine it would take a long time to learn. So having it available for year is a huge marketing ploy. We are technical people not shopping for Appliances.

jwiede
08-26-2014, 03:32 PM
Maya only became wildly popular over XSi after it was purchased by Autodesk, bundled and heavily marketed to schools and other businesses.

Are you actually suggesting that, at time of Autodesk's acquisition of Alias in 2005, Softimage and Maya had similar marketshare numbers?

coremi
08-27-2014, 01:25 AM
Just saw the new 2014 showreel, good work for individuals but compared to demoreel around Lightwave 6b is pretty thin. Just found out some clips can't find the demoreel, have it somewhere in the house:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JsWhyTMajWA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zbyidaZVEQ

later

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZG2txQcCC6I

- - - Updated - - -

wathing Foundry showreel 2014 just find out The Embassy, Animal Logic, Zoic, former Lightwave house appear in their demoreel, so sad...

Reco
08-27-2014, 01:59 AM
As far as I remember Softimage lost a major part of the marked during the development of XSI.

Reco

lightscape
08-27-2014, 02:59 AM
Just saw the new 2014 showreel, good work for individuals but compared to demoreel around Lightwave 6b is pretty thin. Just found out some clips can't find the demoreel, have it somewhere in the house:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JsWhyTMajWA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zbyidaZVEQ

later

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZG2txQcCC6I

- - - Updated - - -

wathing Foundry showreel 2014 just find out The Embassy, Animal Logic, Zoic, former Lightwave house appear in their demoreel, so sad...

Its mainly because of Nuke. Those studios do use modo for modelling though.



As far as I remember Softimage lost a major part of the marked during the development of XSI.

Reco

Yeah the architectural rewrite killed their business. RIP 2015.

Sanchon
08-27-2014, 03:04 AM
Process of patching holes in old tire is an infinite process. In the end, the tire must be replaced with a new one.

I'm testing VRay beta for Modo and I must say one magical word - "WOW".

Oedo 808
08-27-2014, 03:32 AM
Process of patching holes in old tire is an infinite process. In the end, the tire must be replaced with a new one.

If it's an infinite process then there is no end, better that than to have your car repossessed because you could do nothing while waiting for your new tyres to be delivered. Just a bit longer, just a bit longer...

saranine
08-27-2014, 04:37 AM
I think that the fact that the "community" section of these forums has been moved out of eye level is disconcerting in itself. I do not think that this was anything conscious by Newtek. However I wonder if on some level it is a rejection of "community" as an aim of Newtek.

brent3d
08-27-2014, 06:39 AM
Are you actually suggesting that, at time of Autodesk's acquisition of Alias in 2005, Softimage and Maya had similar marketshare numbers?

No, but in art schools, where the work force comes from, Alias was trying to compete with Autodesk's 3DsMax which was already entrenched. Sure, engineering departments had Alias Maya along with there other products because those departments had larger budgets, but not the art programs. Once Autodesk purchased Maya, cut it's price by 50%, bundled it into an entertainment suite with other 3D apps, and offered free academic licenses for students that's when the world changed.

Kaptive
08-27-2014, 07:23 AM
I think that the fact that the "community" section of these forums has been moved out of eye level is disconcerting in itself. I do not think that this was anything conscious by Newtek. However I wonder if on some level it is a rejection of "community" as an aim of Newtek.

Just an observation...

Some of the dominating threads that roll around in this forum draw some seemingly negative views of Lightwave at times. These dominating discussions might appear as alarm bells to anyone new to Lightwave or considering it. All they need to do is read a few pages and they'll go away thinking they have chosen the wrong path/made a bad choice... or even worse, look elsewhere (when actually Lightwave might suit them perfectly).

Where I get frustrated... and why I think community members need to be more considerate of Newtek when posting publicly on their opinions regarding software direction and what is "wrong" with Lightwave...

Lightwave serves a large (not massive) group of 3d artists, that I believe are generally silent, happy and making great work and a decent living. Its' tools, price and usability make it ideal for many. Yes there are the odd problems here and there on occasion, and it works in its' own unique way that isn't to everyone's suiting. But the bottom line is that it is a pretty complete package for a very broad range of work, without having to use any other 3d software outside of what is free, such as blender and sculptris.

But some of you folks seem to get hung up on details that actually don't really bother a lot of us. When I hear some of the comments, I wonder why you are using Lightwave at all if your demands are much higher? Why are you complaining about the future of Lightwave if you are feeling restricted doing whatever line of 3d work you do? Is it not easier to progress into software that is matching your output? Just curious on that one.

If Lightwave is your preferred package, despite your issues with it, then right now is the time to stop churning over the same thing and start putting the same effort into positively promoting it instead... because getting more people to go the Lightwave route is what will give Newtek the resources to give us what we want. If you have a strong idea on how Lightwave can be improved, then write a concise email to the devs and explain any good ideas you have to solve a problem. It doesn't need to be dragged out on here does it?
The thing is, if the devs don't know what you lot want from it by now, then they must be blind and deaf. Any time spent discussing it is probably just wasted breath for a year or two.

I think what I'm trying to say, is that we are all ambassadors of Lightwave and promoting it is in everyone's interest. Newtek is the little guy, and fighting off Autodesk is hard enough as it is. They have come so far in presentation and marketing, and I bet they'd love to promote the forum more, but it seems to be more about these kinds of conversations than work sharing and positive exchanges. Again, I'm probably pointing at threads like this one, that roll on and on, staying on the front page as click bait. They bury everything else in the feed on the right. Just saying.


Anyway, I'm not saying that you're all ar*eholes lol.... far from, in fact the community is awesome when it comes to helping people... first class... I just think we need to look at the bigger picture, and the best ways in which we can get improvements in Lightwave and that is more people using it, which in turn means more investment in development. Thus a unified app if that is a good idea... a new hair system, updated modeler... etc etc.

Rant over... and that was a proper rant! Saranine just got me thinking! Hope I didn't repeat myself too much or sound like a total (insert your favorite derogatory word).

p.s. I always regret posting things like this, but hey. :)

p.p.s. If you think i'm just talking out of my bottom, then I welcome my views to be challenged and decimated if I'm wrong. Really this post is basically about the tone of the forum, and the feeling I get as a casual visitor (but a long time LW user).

p.p.p.s. That is all I have to say about that. Chocolate?

RebelHill
08-27-2014, 07:43 AM
Just an observation...

Personally, Id say you're probably quite right overall, however... If you look around boards for other softs, you'll see plenty of complaining too... "Why did you kill SI, AD? I hate you"... "Why do you have to keep crashing every 30 seconds, Maya? You suck!"... "Why, Modo must you be so slow at handling complex scenes, ahhhh"... etc.

Imo, the main thing that drives threads of this nature in LW land is the fact that folks DO like having/using LW but NEED to see it actually advancing and evolving (as we generally expect from most of the tools and innovations we use everyday) so that they won't feel they have to look elsewhere for this functionality. Add to this the fact that NT obviously know this is what users are wanting, having promised such an evolution (initially in the form of core), like, what... 6 YEARS ago now... as well as in the time since.

I see plenty of folks who're very pleased with the additions and upgrades such as bullet, flocking, unified sampling, etc, etc... but many of these same folk still, it seems, feel that what they're not seeing is this more "fundamental" advancement to really drive LW forward, and after such a long time waiting, I dont think its unfair to expect to see a good deal of frustration expressed about this fact.

So to this end, I guess the ball really is in NTs court... all they have to do is show SOMETHING that is truly meaningful to this end, and they can squash such sentiment in an instant. But however they choose to do this, users need the reassurance that either it is there to be shown, or that it REALLY is coming in the future.

Sanchon
08-27-2014, 07:58 AM
After some weeks I learned one - there is no sense to post threads like this one - about future of lightwave. No info from devs, many speculations etc.
My main intention was - what we can expect ? After long months of stagnation ( or maybe years - depends on how you look ) I think that most of us who live only with 3D should know. This is very important in business and planning of the future. I shouldn't talk about competition but in business term it is reality - you are going forward or stay where you are.

brent3d
08-27-2014, 08:02 AM
Interesting info about what was happening in the schools. I do think it is a combination of a lot of things to make something like Maya get as much use as it does, not the least of which is money spent on development.

Marketing helps. Certainly. I am not sure what part you are disagreeing with because I don't remember saying anything that went against what you pointed out I mean directly anyway.

Is it all only about marketing? No absolutely not. I don't think. But it is part of the package.

At the heart of it is the tools. And as a long time LightWave user who also now uses Maya and has used XSI fairly extensively and also currently uses Blender I can just say from direct experience that there is no way any tool will find its way into my arsenal on marketing alone. But, accessibility does make a difference. And it has made a huge difference for me. Having access to tools to learn about them, having tutorials available etc.

Just take Houdini for example. This is an expensive piece of software. And I imagine it would take a long time to learn. So having it available for year is a huge marketing ploy. We are technical people not shopping for Appliances.

I disagree with your position that I quoted earlier, but the point I'm trying to share is the major importance marketing to schools and students has in all of this (and it's way beyond the design of an app, but how fast students can generate quality work from it and it's relevance to the industries they will be applying to). In a given school year I could teach 200-300 students, each student was required to have an academic license for whatever software was being taught, and those students generally purchased or continued using those softwares after graduation whether they were employed to do so or not. Every year millions of art students graduate into the workforce and some of those students will aid companies in purchasing software or go on to start their own companies, and what software do you think they will recommend or use?
When I was an undergraduate classes in 3D Art related fields didn't exist yet so all you knew about 3D applications generally came from marketing in magazines, but there was a 3D app being used by the students of the architecture and computer programming departments called 3Ds Max, and those students with 3Ds Max went onto define the game industry. That's the power of marketing and being in the schools, the choice to use 3Ds Max wasn't because Lightwave or Softimage or anyone else wasn't designed well, it was all about being the software that the schools purchased and had on hand.

H_Molla
08-27-2014, 08:04 AM
Well said...

H_Molla
08-27-2014, 08:10 AM
After some weeks I learned one - there is no sense to post threads like this one - about future of lightwave. No info from devs, many speculations etc.
My main intention was - what we can expect ? After long months of stagnation ( or maybe years - depends on how you look ) I think that most of us who live only with 3D should know. This is very important in business and planning of the future. I shouldn't talk about competition but in business term it is reality - you are going forward or stay where you are.

We really need to know...

Kaptive
08-27-2014, 08:12 AM
Personally, Id say you're probably quite right overall, however... If you look around boards for other softs, you'll see plenty of complaining too... "Why did you kill SI, AD? I hate you"... "Why do you have to keep crashing every 30 seconds, Maya? You suck!"... "Why, Modo must you be so slow at handling complex scenes, ahhhh"... etc.

Imo, the main thing that drives threads of this nature in LW land is the fact that folks DO like having/using LW but NEED to see it actually advancing and evolving (as we generally expect from most of the tools and innovations we use everyday) so that they won't feel they have to look elsewhere for this functionality. Add to this the fact that NT obviously know this is what users are wanting, having promised such an evolution (initially in the form of core), like, what... 6 YEARS ago now... as well as in the time since.

I see plenty of folks who're very pleased with the additions and upgrades such as bullet, flocking, unified sampling, etc, etc... but many of these same folk still, it seems, feel that what they're not seeing is this more "fundamental" advancement to really drive LW forward, and after such a long time waiting, I dont think its unfair to expect to see a good deal of frustration expressed about this fact.

So to this end, I guess the ball really is in NTs court... all they have to do is show SOMETHING that is truly meaningful to this end, and they can squash such sentiment in an instant. But however they choose to do this, users need the reassurance that either it is there to be shown, or that it REALLY is coming in the future.

All very good points, and yes I think you're right, it is very much in Newteks court now. I can imagine that the devs feel a pressure and desire to get fully back in the race pack too, so fingers crossed.

I guess with Core, Newtek took an ambitious leap and stumbled. But to their credit they got back up and found a way through. It gives me faith in their fighting spirit and ability to make hard choices. I'm sure it'll all work out.

Kaptive
08-27-2014, 08:18 AM
After some weeks I learned one - there is no sense to post threads like this one - about future of lightwave. No info from devs, many speculations etc.
My main intention was - what we can expect ? After long months of stagnation ( or maybe years - depends on how you look ) I think that most of us who live only with 3D should know. This is very important in business and planning of the future. I shouldn't talk about competition but in business term it is reality - you are going forward or stay where you are.

Just want to say that I wasn't having a dig at you :) It was more of a general observation having read so many threads that seem to end up in circles. Not your fault. I think Rebel did a good job explaining what I was missing from the puzzle.

Anyways, all good, and I understand your point of view. Everyones circumstances and needs are a little different. :)

brent3d
08-27-2014, 08:23 AM
Just an observation...

Some of the dominating threads that roll around in this forum draw some seemingly negative views of Lightwave at times. These dominating discussions might appear as alarm bells to anyone new to Lightwave or considering it. All they need to do is read a few pages and they'll go away thinking they have chosen the wrong path/made a bad choice... or even worse, look elsewhere (when actually Lightwave might suit them perfectly).

Where I get frustrated... and why I think community members need to be more considerate of Newtek when posting publicly on their opinions regarding software direction and what is "wrong" with Lightwave...

Lightwave serves a large (not massive) group of 3d artists, that I believe are generally silent, happy and making great work and a decent living. Its' tools, price and usability make it ideal for many. Yes there are the odd problems here and there on occasion, and it works in its' own unique way that isn't to everyone's suiting. But the bottom line is that it is a pretty complete package for a very broad range of work, without having to use any other 3d software outside of what is free, such as blender and sculptris.

But some of you folks seem to get hung up on details that actually don't really bother a lot of us. When I hear some of the comments, I wonder why you are using Lightwave at all if your demands are much higher? Why are you complaining about the future of Lightwave if you are feeling restricted doing whatever line of 3d work you do? Is it not easier to progress into software that is matching your output? Just curious on that one.

If Lightwave is your preferred package, despite your issues with it, then right now is the time to stop churning over the same thing and start putting the same effort into positively promoting it instead... because getting more people to go the Lightwave route is what will give Newtek the resources to give us what we want. If you have a strong idea on how Lightwave can be improved, then write a concise email to the devs and explain any good ideas you have to solve a problem. It doesn't need to be dragged out on here does it?
The thing is, if the devs don't know what you lot want from it by now, then they must be blind and deaf. Any time spent discussing it is probably just wasted breath for a year or two.

I think what I'm trying to say, is that we are all ambassadors of Lightwave and promoting it is in everyone's interest. Newtek is the little guy, and fighting off Autodesk is hard enough as it is. They have come so far in presentation and marketing, and I bet they'd love to promote the forum more, but it seems to be more about these kinds of conversations than work sharing and positive exchanges. Again, I'm probably pointing at threads like this one, that roll on and on, staying on the front page as click bait. They bury everything else in the feed on the right. Just saying.


Anyway, I'm not saying that you're all ar*eholes lol.... far from, in fact the community is awesome when it comes to helping people... first class... I just think we need to look at the bigger picture, and the best ways in which we can get improvements in Lightwave and that is more people using it, which in turn means more investment in development. Thus a unified app if that is a good idea... a new hair system, updated modeler... etc etc.

Rant over... and that was a proper rant! Saranine just got me thinking! Hope I didn't repeat myself too much or sound like a total (insert your favorite derogatory word).

p.s. I always regret posting things like this, but hey. :)

p.p.s. If you think i'm just talking out of my bottom, then I welcome my views to be challenged and decimated if I'm wrong. Really this post is basically about the tone of the forum, and the feeling I get as a casual visitor (but a long time LW user).

p.p.p.s. That is all I have to say about that. Chocolate?

Totally agree. "...today we face the monsters at our door...today we are cancelling the apocalypse!" Over the top?...yes, but get inspired, remember why you chose to do 3D in the first place, join the rebellion.

toeknee
08-27-2014, 09:19 AM
You know I fought with Newtek about the education issue for a while. I taught 3D in China between 2006 and 2009 and when I can back to the States. I went back to work for the reseller I worked for before hand. The point is that it was my job to sell LW3D. I sold about 250 copy's into school at that time and the two biggest reasons I had a hard time selling it was because, it used a dongle and second because there was no certification program. The dongle was the biggest issue but the latter was also extremely important.
At the time when I first came back from China I was trying to work with Newtek just to get out a quick certification program for character animation. The idea I was pitching was to use IKBoost as the main tool and focus of teaching the principles of animation. Things like blocking weight timing yada yada yada. I wanted to use IKBoost because it was a simple tool to get people started by learning a pose to pose animation style. I was blown off pretty quickly because they had someone internally who was working on a training certification process. Well that was five years ago and still no certification program. What I was offering would have been ready to go in two months.

oh well, at least they got ride of the dongle. Considering the work Ryan Roye has done with IKBoost I bet he could do what I was talking about in two week. It has been great to see him pickup where Spline God left off. Way to carry the torch.

Surrealist.
08-27-2014, 11:02 AM
I disagree with your position that I quoted earlier, but the point I'm trying to share is the major importance marketing to schools and students has in all of this (and it's way beyond the design of an app, but how fast students can generate quality work from it and it's relevance to the industries they will be applying to). In a given school year I could teach 200-300 students, each student was required to have an academic license for whatever software was being taught, and those students generally purchased or continued using those softwares after graduation whether they were employed to do so or not. Every year millions of art students graduate into the workforce and some of those students will aid companies in purchasing software or go on to start their own companies, and what software do you think they will recommend or use?
When I was an undergraduate classes in 3D Art related fields didn't exist yet so all you knew about 3D applications generally came from marketing in magazines, but there was a 3D app being used by the students of the architecture and computer programming departments called 3Ds Max, and those students with 3Ds Max went onto define the game industry. That's the power of marketing and being in the schools, the choice to use 3Ds Max wasn't because Lightwave or Softimage or anyone else wasn't designed well, it was all about being the software that the schools purchased and had on hand.

Yeah in general I think I can see what you are saying and your first hand experience is definitely good info to have.

Another factor that you draw attention to is that this industry is new. And that means that is was not initially an academically-driven workforce in the traditional sense. I was around when a very good friend was making six figures from LightWave alone, based on nothing more than a reel and working his way up on talent and experience. A lot of people got into 3D at that time, self taught, and self made.

And the industry then grew, driven mainly by what software was working. It was not at all driven by what was being taught in school because then, it wasn't yet at least nearly as widely as now. That did not come til much later. And then it made sense to teach the software that the studios were using, and then it made sense for a company like Autodesk to make the investment in the educational sector and this is where I think your story fits in. So there was a history already. And yes absolutely the school system eventually became what it is today. And yeah it feeds itself.

But at the same time, if a new software comes along and starts to have an impact on the market then it will reflect itself in what is offered in training.

Just this year in fact DT begain offering Blender training and they have been working for several months now to develop a LightWave offering. So LightWave lately is actually back on the rise over the last few years. And it will continue to rise as the tool set increases and the user base expands and then eventually it can make sense for it to enter back into the educational sector in more ways than it has now.

By the way my friend who was making money off of LightWave in the 90s jumped to Maya in 2000. It was a sign of things to come. Honestly at the time I was a little shocked. But his reasoning was fairly solid and certainly he saw himself furthering his career by this move. So it says a lot. About 13 years later I did the same... I am a little slow... lol.