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Snosrap
08-01-2014, 12:59 PM
I just saw this posting on the NT site for a Modeling Developer: https://www.lightwave3d.com/careers/
Looks like we won't be seeing Modeler improvements in 11.7 - again. :)

Oedo 808
08-01-2014, 01:09 PM
People keep saying they are tired of **** being tacked on and we were never likely to see anything other than that if anything had been added prematurely, I guess the soil is becoming fertile enough to start growing judiciously. Here's hoping that this is just so.

hrgiger
08-01-2014, 01:50 PM
Unfortunately, we've not seen any indication yet that things aren't still being tacked on as development moves forward. For whatever reason, LW3DG seems content with simply adding to LW instead of fixing things on its foundation (SDK) which would be more beneficial in the long run. And wasn't David I working on a new geometry core for LW? Now he's left Newtek so it just makes me wonder if that is still in the works. It also makes me wonder if the next release of LightWave, LW12 in this instance, won't be more bolted on features instead of real system wide and foundation improvements. If there's not significant changes then it will be time for me to find a software alternative that realizes that foundation improvements are more important then a bullet list of new features.

Oedo 808
08-01-2014, 02:19 PM
I can't disagree, well because anything anyone says is a possibility, no matter how negative, not that I think you're being particularly negative, just that maintaining radio silence has unavoidable pitfalls which makes it a poor choice. I was just thinking that if anyone was hoping for anything sooner, aside from the fact that it would be reaching for a point release anyway, then tacked would likely be all that we're going to get.

About for things being better placed to add in new tools, well it just a bit of optimistic supposition, that we've seen little to suggest it means little in itself because I wouldn't expect there to be an indicator other than it happening, but at the same time, that we've seen little to suggest it means just that, beyond the ageing destination and vehicle comment, nothing. If others feel as you do and that shows, perhaps that pattern will convince that they need that managing expectations isn't limited to the task of keeping people from expecting too much. I'm not sure where my getting off point would be.

hazmat777
08-01-2014, 02:41 PM
Oedo 808 "I'm not sure where my getting off point would be."

Maybe you should do a "parallel change over" like NewTek said they were going to do for LightWave about 6 years ago?

hrgiger
08-01-2014, 02:48 PM
Yeah my intent is not to be negative, just stating how I'm seeing things currently. I didn't expect a lot of significant change in LW 10 or LW 11 as far as overall system changes as I figured those would take a substantial amount of time after they chose to go a different route then rewriting the software from scratch. But I feel there's been enough time to at least show some indication of real change in LW12. And when I say change, I'm not just talking about putting modeling tools in Layout or putting Lights in modeler or something that just attempts to bridge gaps between having 2 separate applications. Sometimes I get the sense that when people talk about integration on the forums or elsewhere that an integrated LightWave means having modelers tools in Layout and that's about as far as it goes. If the plan were to be simply adding modeling tools to Layout just so you don't have to go to modeler to make some geometry changes or edits, then that's missing the point. I'm talking about real changes that propagate through the entire system, not just feature specific. Sort of like adding gizmos to new modeling tools in LightWave 11.5 instead of creating a gizmo type in the SDK that any of modelers tools (or other features) can access.

Snosrap
08-01-2014, 03:01 PM
And wasn't David I working on a new geometry core for LW? Now he's left Newtek so it just makes me wonder if that is still in the works. David has left?

paulhart
08-01-2014, 03:27 PM
David has left?? Worse news ever... at least from the outside, which, albeit, is a very limited perspective, but I am stuck with it barring any communication. He gave me a glimmer of hope with the short lived thread on "new modeling" engine at the core of NevronoChronoSomething. The thread disappeared, as it may have revealed to much, now David. If I was anyway into psychology, I might speculate about the "old beast" who eats it's children rather than allow them to surpass him in development, thus spawning years of developers who have gone off to create (insert products names here). It is almost "mythic" in scope. Come on Newtek, please tell me that there is hope for the next generation.

safetyman
08-01-2014, 03:40 PM
It will be very difficult for me to recommend upgrades to our existing LW versions with bolted on minor new features. We've been slowing integrating other software into our little group that just works -- it's frustrating trying to tell newbies that they can't render from Modeler or that they have to go back to Layout to see what their textures will look like. It's not like Newtek relies on us to make their mortgage payments, so I doubt we'll be missed, but I hang around here hoping to see some major improvements. I always wonder if Core had continued to be developed what LW would look like today. Living in the past, I know, sorry.

hrgiger
08-01-2014, 03:45 PM
David has left?

yeah. I imagine thats why they posted a modeling engineer opening.

Sanchon
08-01-2014, 03:49 PM
David has left?

He left. You can see info on his facebook page and here - http://www.rendering.de - "LW Group sucht" article.

50one
08-01-2014, 04:28 PM
Not a great news, but i'm always prepared for the worst, future aint so bright, writings on the wall.

Peace

saranine
08-01-2014, 05:13 PM
Maybe there is an elephant in the room: will Newtek leave Lightwave as it is and focus on the broader suite instead such as supersculpt, next amazingmotion etc?

Chris S. (Fez)
08-01-2014, 05:34 PM
Should be an interesting Siggraph...

There are so many rich modeling solutions available, I am fine with Newtek concentrating on rendering, surfacing, layout, deformations and in-camera modeling. Rhiggit 2 gives Layout new life and I am really hoping to see integrated render pass management and performance gains for 11.7.

lightscape
08-01-2014, 05:47 PM
Sometimes I get the sense that when people talk about integration on the forums or elsewhere that an integrated LightWave means having modelers tools in Layout and that's about as far as it goes. If the plan were to be simply adding modeling tools to Layout just so you don't have to go to modeler to make some geometry changes or edits, then that's missing the point.

That's enough for me for lw 12, 13, 14.
It has to start with the ability to add workflow and gui elements in layout for modelling tools(selection, manipulation of vertex, edges, polys) which it currently doesn't have. Deformers and other modules(sculpting, etc) can be added on later like what we see in 3dmax, cinema4d, modo, blender.

If David did leave that's ok. He didn't do any development on layout. He developed for modeller ever since and chrono later on.

Snosrap
08-01-2014, 06:36 PM
Well it does look like they are moving LW forward with the Qt toolkit.

realgray
08-01-2014, 06:50 PM
I wonder what this means for the future of CS.

jasonwestmas
08-01-2014, 06:53 PM
David is gone? That's horrible.

saranine
08-01-2014, 09:00 PM
I don't think that LW 12 matters if no new beginners take up Lightwave. From what I have seen on these forums it's the same echo chamber of about 10 to at most 15 core people. No 3D program has a future if that remains the case. The 10 to 15 people are fantastic and helpful. My grievance isn't with them; it's with Newtek's marketing.

Rayek
08-02-2014, 12:16 AM
I don't think that LW 12 matters if no new beginners take up Lightwave. From what I have seen on these forums it's the same echo chamber of about 10 to at most 15 core people. No 3D program has a future if that remains the case. The 10 to 15 people are fantastic and helpful. My grievance isn't with them; it's with Newtek's marketing.

I agree wholeheartedly - last week a colleague of mine told me that both Maya and Blender(!) are being taught at a major (non private!) technical school here in Vancouver. Lightwave only seems to get somewhat more coverage in 3D World magazine nowadays (due to the current editor, I believe?). Blender, however, seems to gaining more and more traction (and respect). Max seems to be lagging and on the way out (unless AD does something drastically smooth next update cycle). Over the past years we've seen the demise of several generalist applications, and with less options out there for users, you'd think Newtek's marketing would have been able to monetize on that situation - but as far as I can tell, it is the opposite. They're getting more and more marginalized, I feel.

Honestly, I never hear anyone mentioning Lightwave in my profession (instructor in media-related courses) - it's Maya, Blender, zBrush, Max, sometimes Modo and 3dCoat, but never is Lightwave entering any discussion. Students either never heard of LW before, or are of the opinion it's a dinosaur from a long past age.

As for myself, I desperately wish for a modeler-layout unification rather sooner than later - especially nowadays with realtime rendered viewports in other software which allow you to model and texture while previewing the final result. That just will not work in Lightwave, and it inherently limits its potential immensely (alongside other glaring omissions compared to what one ought to expect from a modern 3d application). Until that unification happens, I decided NOT to update my v9.6. I'm very happy with Blender and 3dCoat, and using Layout as a complementary render engine for certain work.

saranine
08-02-2014, 01:38 AM
Vancouver has a long history of 3D technology. If Lightwave is being ignored there then I agree - I might leave Lightwave as it is [11 in my case]
as well. Unless Newtek comes out with something that blows my brains out.

JohnMarchant
08-02-2014, 02:44 AM
Well after the Core debacle i have learnt not to jump on the next full release and wait to see what people say about it and see if i really need it. I really have to knuckle down and learn Blender i think, been saying it for ages but the UI really puts me off still.

I will wait for 12 and see what it offers, but if it is as i suspect and no real improvements and advances in modeler then i might give it a miss and model in Blender and render in LW. I do hope i and we are wrong and we are going to have our socks blown off but i have been thinking this for some time and it has not happened. I want LWG3D to address the problems and half integrated tools in LW 12, i dont want new features in 12, i just want all what we have to work properly across the board and be fully implemented (Bullet, Genoma, Instances, Python) im looking at you.

I think modeler has to be the focus now, its had very little attention in the past and is seriously falling behind. Id also like the content updated as well, menu layouts, presets, example scenes etc.

lightscape
08-02-2014, 06:28 AM
Honestly, I never hear anyone mentioning Lightwave in my profession (instructor in media-related courses) - it's Maya, Blender, zBrush, Max, sometimes Modo and 3dCoat, but never is Lightwave entering any discussion. Students either never heard of LW before, or are of the opinion it's a dinosaur from a long past age.


I only hear blender in indie circles. Not a good idea to be in that sector if you want to live comfortably.
Will they kill off max? Maybe in 10 years like softimage. Maya is the king and most secure skillset to have these days.

Double negative - maya
http://www.dneg.com/jobs/generalist_td_%28singapore%29_716.html

MPC - maya
http://www.moving-picture.com/previzualisation

Pixomondo - max and maya
http://www.pixomondo.com/jobs-at-pxo/

Blur - max
http://vz3.blur.com/jobs

Animal logic - maya
http://www.animallogic.com/Careers/Jobs

Bluesky studios - max and maya
http://getinmedia.com/employers/blue-sky-studios

Framestore - maya
https://ch.tbe.taleo.net/CH10/ats/careers/requisition.jsp?org=FRAMESTORE&cws=39&rid=112

robertoortiz
08-02-2014, 06:50 AM
I only hear blender in indie circles. Not a good idea to be in that sector if you want to live comfortably.
Will they kill off max? Maybe in 10 years like softimage. Maya is the king and most secure skillset to have these days.

Double negative - maya
http://www.dneg.com/jobs/generalist_td_%28singapore%29_716.html

MPC - maya
http://www.moving-picture.com/previzualisation

Pixomondo - max and maya
http://www.pixomondo.com/jobs-at-pxo/

Blur - max
http://vz3.blur.com/jobs

Animal logic - maya
http://www.animallogic.com/Careers/Jobs

Bluesky studios - max and maya
http://getinmedia.com/employers/blue-sky-studios

Framestore - maya
https://ch.tbe.taleo.net/CH10/ats/careers/requisition.jsp?org=FRAMESTORE&cws=39&rid=112
Spot on...
Hell I am going to move my studio towards Maya next year. Some of my animators are demanding it and they do have a point. I wills still use LW of course.

kfinla
08-02-2014, 07:14 AM
I think lw modeler isn't falling behind, it IS way behind. To me it's like the native maya renderer which was ignored by ADSK because they knew no one was using it, so they saw no point in developing it. I think lw modeler is at that precarious point. Lw layout needs the integrated modeling tools desperately which hinder so many workflows in layout. Modeling is such a cheap toolset to replace I can only see the one man band user still working with lw modeler and not just going to another app for that.

I think one big issue for lw has been it does everything just ok. I feel like modo and the huge influx of gpu renderers has caused people to stop hanging on to lw as it was just sticking around as a renderer. I don't see people leaving the app they are in to go to lw to do something lw is only ok at. It needs a niche again.

I have been a lw user for 15 yrs, and think the lw 11.x series is the most stable yet. I have high hopes for lw 12 both do to the dev time, and as we progress further down the road for Rob's vision of the product. But I think playing catch up and trying to shore up many areas is not going to improve lw's image, or attract new blood. It needs to be a leader in some area to get people to look at the rest of the toolset.

cresshead
08-02-2014, 07:31 AM
2015 may be a defining year for Lightwave development.

JohnMarchant
08-02-2014, 07:35 AM
Im very concerned for LW Modeler now David Ikeda has left, i do hope they can find some fresh blood to really kick modeler into the 21st Century.

- - - Updated - - -


2015 may be a defining year for Lightwave development.

Well i hope it is a good defining moment.

Sanchon
08-02-2014, 07:47 AM
2015 may be a defining year for Lightwave development.

In 2015 competition softwares will be 5 years before LW in the terms of usability and features. I probably will not be able to compete with the competition who uses max for example. They can do many things faster and better.

tyrot
08-02-2014, 08:02 AM
i am not concerned .. at all. Hire Victor of LWCAD.. he will give you what you want... and probably more.

David wrote himself - since LW's core programmer departure there was really no architect behind modeler. Well - thanks God for Victor - an external architect was simply reinventing LW's modeler

So this is it.. BRING VICTOR TO NEWTEK..!

Surrealist.
08-03-2014, 09:49 AM
There is going to be a lot of good things, I feel, coming in LW 12.

The root of the problem I feel is that a lot of people are putting hopes too high for anything to do with integration. The math is very simple. Doing that is a 10-15 year project at least if not more.

From there you can speculate how it will take place, given that the current workflow has to also stay intact in order for LW to be functional.

djwaterman
08-03-2014, 11:11 AM
There is going to be a lot of good things, I feel, coming in LW 12.

The root of the problem I feel is that a lot of people are putting hopes too high for anything to do with integration. The math is very simple. Doing that is a 10-15 year project at least if not more.

From there you can speculate how it will take place, given that the current workflow has to also stay intact in order for LW to be functional.


I don't believe unification is coming to 12, so those specifically needing that might have to look elsewhere, I'm hoping for faster and better rendering, proper micro-poly displacement, better handling of large amounts of polygons and perhaps some kind of add-on for Layout to allows limited modeling, extruding type functions geared towards motion graphic work. Just basic things like a superior UV mapping ability, volumetric shaders and shadows that cast from HDR images. I'd like to see a global material node that can be used to create any kind of material, so you don't have to choose between dielectric, Delta, conductor and carpaint. Total speculation on my part, Lightwave is what it is, it might remain a non unified app, but a really good one. I certainly wouldn't be pinning my hopes on unification as that has never been officially promoted anywhere except by users on these forums.

Sanchon
08-03-2014, 11:48 AM
I agree. Lack of unification is not a big problem. Sometimes it is even useful...

Surrealist.
08-03-2014, 12:11 PM
Don't get me wrong, just FWIW, lack of unification is a huge problem and the basic issue with LightWave. And I hate to be short, but this has been debated and tossed about numerous times. There are absolutely no uses for two apps that make it any advantage at all. Nothing nadda. Not one single argument has been brought forth that is not immediately shot down by facts on the contrary.

There really is no more room for debate. And I don't care who is doing the talking or where.

It really only comes down to the simple fact of what it is going to take to get there. And as djwaterman points out there are a lot of things that LightWave can use in the mean time. It is a long road. And a lot of good things will come to LightWave in the mean time.

Surrealist.
08-03-2014, 12:16 PM
I certainly wouldn't be pinning my hopes on unification as that has never been officially promoted anywhere except by users on these forums.

Actually if memory serves it has. Right when they canceled core. Given that CORE was unified, and they stated that the goal was the same but a different route, is fairly clear wording.

Even to the effect of Rob mentioning it fairly recently. I think it has more or less changed from - "its coming" to "whatever we do and to what ever degree we do it"... So I think it has been very official.

But that's cool with me because I have never once bought into the idea it was coming soon given the task.

jeric_synergy
08-03-2014, 12:34 PM
The Greener Grass Syndrome is hard at work here. 8~

In the commercial world, there's a form of animatics called "rip-o-matics" wherein people take other commercials, grab the bit they like, cut it together, hand it to a director and say "THIS is what we want!"

The trouble w/this is inevitably, INEVITABLY, these bits are always the most expensive parts of the commercial. So the budget goes sky-high.

I see this a lot on this forum, especially in the damn "point upgrade" threads-- it's freeking ridiculous.

For a full integer upgrade, we are free to ask for a lot more, but the fact remains that there's a budget and LW cannot be everything to all users. I'd agree that unification is a valuable goal, but the grocery list is long, and some of the requests are just silly, or obviously unattainable.

I actually have HOPE that unification may occur, even as soon as 12, the Layout Modeler tools are the merest hint of them, but I also hope that there's a modeling "mode" in the classic style.

jwiede
08-03-2014, 01:15 PM
He left. You can see info on his facebook page and here - http://www.rendering.de - "LW Group sucht" article.

Hmm, wonder if this will be enough to convince Erikals that Hydra _isn't_ "coming soon"?

jwiede
08-03-2014, 01:45 PM
The math is very simple. Doing that is a 10-15 year project at least if not more.

Please, spell out the "simple math" that led you to that number? Are those developer/years? Or calendar years (>30-45 developer/years)?

If developer/years that number seems grossly pessimistic, but if calendar years... :ohmy::bangwall:

jwiede
08-03-2014, 01:51 PM
(deleted)

Meh, not worth the effort, probably hasn't been for years.

hrgiger
08-03-2014, 03:08 PM
A quote from a Rob Powers interview: “Ultimately, I can’t see a future trajectory of our product not including a unified interface for modelling and animation,” he said. In addition, he said that even though the direction of development changed(upon cancellation of the CORE application), that the destination would be still be the same which was of course a unified application.

And we've already been told more or less not to expect unification with LW12. So anyone holding out for that, get the tissues out now to dry your eyes. I do expect however that there will be additions to LightWave in the short term that will elmintate, at least some of, the need to jump back and forth between modeler and Layout to achieve certain tasks as we are used to.

And I agree with Richard at least on his ballpark figure for creating a unified LightWave. I might put it closer to 10 years. You figure that LightWave 10 was released at the very beginning of 2011 which was roughly 6 months after their 'change in direction' announcement after they cancelled CORE. By the time LW 12 is released probably next year by all guesstimates, you're already looking at close to 5 years. Considering that LW11 will have lasted 3 to 4 years (with 4 free feature updates in the meantime), you're up to 8 to 9 years by the time LW13 is released. I suppose its possible that it could be a single application by LW13 but even I am finding that a bit optimistic. Maybe it will have most functionality by that time under a single app but still require the other app for a few key items...but that is all just speculation. But anyone who thinks that LightWave could have been made into a single app with all the same (or more) functionality by LW11 or even LW12 is just not being realistic.

hrgiger
08-03-2014, 03:15 PM
Don't get me wrong, just FWIW, lack of unification is a huge problem and the basic issue with LightWave. And I hate to be short, but this has been debated and tossed about numerous times. There are absolutely no uses for two apps that make it any advantage at all. Nothing nadda. Not one single argument has been brought forth that is not immediately shot down by facts on the contrary.



Pretty much.

Benefits of having separate apps I see touted, all of which are utter fallacy. The buzz after each statement, just pretend you're on a game show and getting each thing wrong and that's the buzzer sound you get.

1 bigger app takes up more system resources then 2 smaller ones. [buzz]
A unified app has to have a more cluttered interface [buzz]
Its a better workflow if I can just model in one app and then animate in another [buzz]
Its the Lightwavey way [buzz]
Its an advantage LW has over other apps [buzz]
A bunch of other fallacy [buzz]

hazmat777
08-03-2014, 04:38 PM
Pretty much.

Benefits of having separate apps I see touted, all of which are utter fallacy. The buzz after each statement, just pretend you're on a game show and getting each thing wrong and that's the buzzer sound you get.

1 bigger app takes up more system resources then 2 smaller ones. [buzz]
A unified app has to have a more cluttered interface [buzz]
Its a better workflow if I can just model in one app and then animate in another [buzz]
Its the Lightwavey way [buzz]
Its an advantage LW has over other apps [buzz]
A bunch of other fallacy [buzz]

Sometimes I feel like Alex Trebel in this sketch...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTDsJd1l7Aw :help:

Rayek
08-03-2014, 05:35 PM
Unification is a must, and must happen rather sooner than later, or I (personally) see no future for Lightwave. But so far I have seen only one 3d application pull off a complete refactoring/modernization (Blender, which was truly amazing to see happen, and its dividends are paying off), and other attempts have failed miserably (Core, TrueSpace, and if rumors are to be believed Autodesk with Max).

Yet another solution for Newtek would be to let go of the notion that Lightwave needs a modeler, and they would start focusing on the strengths of Layout. As a generalist application it is just too much behind now compared to others, I feel: polygonal modeling is okay but lagging (once arguably the best on the market), no sculpting, no texture painting tools, character animation tools are behind the times, no compositor, no this, no that, the list goes on and on. How on earth can Newtek stay competitive then?

So perhaps become a more focused solution? I mean, Newtek is already selling more specialized tools separately that would probably have been built into Lightwave had those come out years ago: Chronosculpt and Nevronmotion. Now, however, Newtek decided to sell these as singularly focused tools.

I suppose the question is really: how can Lightwave differentiate itself as a product? Perhaps the problem lies not with Newtek's marketing, and it may be the product itself that is lacking a clear sense of direction and/or focus. When your product is confused, no marketing in the world is going to help you in selling it to a lot of people.

I am playing the devil's advocate here: why would any new user choose Lightwave over other competing products?

Sanchon
08-03-2014, 05:40 PM
In my opinion - unification - good - but there are much more important features and improvements to do. Full unification probably can't be done within current LightWave architecture. This is a time time-consuming process ( years ) of rewriting whole aplication.

I think that at the moment we need as fast as possible :

- Better, modern, intelligent rendering system ( without adaptive sampling )
- Better light spreading in radiosity mode with control of "contact shadows" ( like Vray )
- Full AA implementation in render buffers and colored SurfaceID masks
- Advanced camera with exposure, gamma, brightness etc. controls within HDR space ( with VPR support ) - not as post-processing.
- Modeler should works with millions polys objects without problems. Editing UV maps with such objects is a pain.
- Intelligent placement of instances ( painting ) with possibility of editing indyvidual ones ( move, rotate, scale )
- Better displacements with micropoly mode
.......
- And much better usability with GPU please ! Where is this person from NVidia who worked with LW3D Group some time ago ?
....
...

This probably can be done within current LightWave architecture and it will be huge boost to productivity without the need to rebuild whole aplication.

cresshead
08-03-2014, 05:49 PM
that quote from Rob "unified interface for modelling and animation"
just read that twice..slowly.

does't say/imply that it will be 1 app at all does it?

to me it's more like the different tabs in softimage (rest in peace) modules that you access thru 1 user interface.
or the "rooms/tabs in modo and carrara.

so could be 1 user interface that access several applications.

hey as long as it's better and works...go for it

have a great Monday :)

Shnoze Shmon
08-03-2014, 05:53 PM
I'm not amongst the most highly informed on CORE, but it seems like the biggest thing it promised was unification. They expected to achieve CORE goals by LW15, hence, those with the various CORE discounts keep those prices through that release. So I would think it a rational expectation that total unification would not occur until that release. The capability of LW seems to have taken exponential strides with 10 and 11. And 11 isn't finished yet. So why cant we expect another exponential stride with 12? Why the single issue "if it doesn't have X I'm outta here" approach? There has to be another reason(s) why your still with LW.

That aside, I want to see improvements in modeler as much as the next guy.

cresshead
08-03-2014, 06:15 PM
lightwave 12 is gonna be "what it is"...there's no communication from newtek to their userbase in the last 44 months on the development path
newtek just concentrate on major releases like lightwave 10 and 11 and point updates...their running silent running deep so to speak
However i will say there's a danger of being silent in that users may start to think nothing is happening or they are struggling to get over a hump in the road.

re communication: i sorta understand why...they got bit on the bum with core...probably too much chat with users which raised expectations too high.
better to just get your heads down...make something and see if it will sell.

as for what i hope lightwave 12 will be?
i want it to be "cool" have some cool stuff that no one else has as well as fix workflow holes and catch up with industry leading 3d apps.

gonna be tough, but they are busy..."ain't got time to bleed" (predator)

Snosrap
08-03-2014, 07:00 PM
Maybe the real question here is - why can't NT keep developers?

sukardi
08-03-2014, 07:27 PM
The silence has been going on a bit too long for my liking. The only reason I am still on LW is that LW11 cycle was pretty amazing - but that was 2 years ago.

Currently, I am gearing to switch to a combination of Modo (modeling) and Houdini (everything else). Of course, it takes quite a bit of cash and learning effort to do that. However, if there is no concrete info on LW12 (beta or whatever) in the next 6 months, I don't think I have any choice but to take the jump ...

lightscape
08-03-2014, 08:43 PM
Maybe the real question here is - why can't NT keep developers?

David has worked for newtek for several years. Its probably the right time to part ways if newtek wants to focus on layout modelling tools. David primarily worked on modeller afaik.

He posted here about leaving newtek.
http://www.rendering.de/?p=4658

Here's an old interview.
http://pingmag.jp/2007/06/08/david-ikeda/

Working solitary or satellite employee for a long time has drawbacks.

3D Kiwi
08-03-2014, 09:45 PM
While i can understand newtek keeping there mouth shut on new tech they may be developing, why so quite on unification. its a pretty hot topic it seams. I mean if they anounced they are unifiying lightwave for version 12, autodesk arnt going to freak out and think wow we now need to split Maya up. All they need to say is yes we are working on it and hope to have something in the next few versions. or No we arnt going to unify lightwave and we are working on improving the workflow so its a non issue.

Richardas
08-04-2014, 02:08 AM
http://s2014.siggraph.org/sites/default/files/SIGGRAPH%202014%20Floor%20Plan.pdf

Where is Lightwave on Siggraph 2014 floor plan?

Lewis
08-04-2014, 02:12 AM
Nowhere, NT/LwG3D is not going (at least as exhibitor) this year.

Richardas
08-04-2014, 02:15 AM
Ooh. Got it. Thanks.

Sanchon
08-04-2014, 02:48 AM
Newtek is not a part of LightWave 3D anymore - LightWave 3D Group is a different firm. Even this forum was changed. LIghtWave forum has been moved below.

3D Kiwi
08-04-2014, 03:30 AM
Newtek is not a part of LightWave 3D anymore - LightWave 3D Group is a different firm. Even this forum was changed. LIghtWave forum has been moved below.

Did not know that. Thought it was just a division of Newtek. So does that mean LW3D Group is stronger or weaker now.

Sanchon
08-04-2014, 03:48 AM
Newtek is not a part of LightWave 3D anymore - LightWave 3D Group is a different firm. Even this forum was changed. LIghtWave forum has been moved below.

CaptainMarlowe
08-04-2014, 05:02 AM
Not exactly : Lightwave 3D group is a division of Newtek. So it has gained some independence, but is still a part of Newtek.

robertoortiz
08-04-2014, 06:32 AM
re communication: i sorta understand why...they got bit on the bum with core...probably too much chat with users which raised expectations too high.
better to just get your heads down...make something and see if it will sell.

)

One of the Nastiest thing I have ever seen In all the years covering 3d is the article 3d World Magazine wrote about a WIP version of CORE. It was plan and simple a "hit piece" .
That really was an undeserved and nasty piece of work and In my opinion it helped kill CORE .
Here is what I am talking about..
http://forums.newtek.com/archive/index.php/t-111598.html
It permanently soured NT in terms of sharing what they are working for and frankly I don't blame them.

Surrealist.
08-04-2014, 10:54 AM
Well that is all water under the bridge now.

Am I reading into this correctly with David's blog when he says he is more interested in a smaller simple app? That he did not work well in a team environment that required a large project? He was involved with CS correct? Could that be part of why it was released as a stand alone app rather than successfully integrated into LW?

Just pure speculation...

jeric_synergy
08-04-2014, 11:03 AM
Did David create IKB? IIRC, there was a serious language barrier there, which for whatever reason was never successfully bridged. IMO NewTek (at the time) never really grasped what the hell IKB is.

There's other language barriers, sometimes Programmerese<<>>User-ese , plus one language to another, still plaguing some plugins.
++++++++++

EDIT: from reading David's FB (?) post, I'm guessing he is NOT the developer I was told was a fantastic coder, but challenged by English.

erikals
08-04-2014, 12:05 PM
http://forums.newtek.com/images/misc/quote_icon.pngSurrealist
Am I reading into this correctly with David's blog when he says he is more interested in a smaller simple app? That he did not work well in a team environment that required a large project? He was involved with CS correct?
Could that be part of why it was released as a stand alone app rather than successfully integrated into LW?
from what i read from his CS comments in late July 2013, no.
maybe this years Siggraph will reveal something? > 10 days left...


(Core) ...Well that is all water under the bridge now
yep, that was becore, this is now, let's look ahead...

Dexter2999
08-04-2014, 12:52 PM
Would like to say that it is refreshing to see David's post explaining his departure and to see it wasn't a "sour grapes", bridge burning kind of thing. Nice seeing someone take personal responsibility. Wish him all the best.

Snosrap
08-04-2014, 02:43 PM
Would like to say that it is refreshing to see David's post explaining his departure and to see it wasn't a "sour grapes", bridge burning kind of thing. Nice seeing someone take personal responsibility. Wish him all the best. Could you post that link? Thanks

Lewis
08-04-2014, 02:51 PM
Could you post that link? Thanks

http://www.rendering.de/?p=4658

Paul_Boland
08-04-2014, 06:18 PM
Nowhere, NT/LwG3D is not going (at least as exhibitor) this year.

Very disappointed to read this. I was looking forward to getting some news on Lightwave's future development.

3D Kiwi
08-04-2014, 06:51 PM
Very disappointed to read this. I was looking forward to getting some news on Lightwave's future development.

I was looking foward to the money, fame and girls i was going to get when i became an animator. Guess we are both going to be disappointed :-)

Paul_Boland
08-04-2014, 07:08 PM
i was looking foward to the money, fame and girls i was going to get when i became an animator. Guess we are both going to be disappointed :-)

lol!! :)

Snosrap
08-04-2014, 07:28 PM
http://www.rendering.de/?p=4658 Thanks Lewis!

jwiede
08-04-2014, 07:42 PM
http://www.rendering.de/?p=4658

And anyone who believes that was all there was to it, no doubt also "owns" numerous landmark bridges.

lightscape
08-04-2014, 08:14 PM
David has worked for newtek for several years. Its probably the right time to part ways if newtek wants to focus on layout modelling tools. David primarily worked on modeller afaik.

He posted here about leaving newtek.
http://www.rendering.de/?p=4658

Here's an old interview.
http://pingmag.jp/2007/06/08/david-ikeda/

Working solitary or satellite employee for a long time has drawbacks.


Imho David was just in another direction in his mind. He wants artsy, fluid software like sculptris, Verve, chronosculpt. That's what drew him to lightwave with its gizmoless modeller workflow. Read it from the second interview.
But its not a good fit for a pipeline software perspective which needs more structural and organizational(boring) features.

I don't think anyone has a clue how long it would take for unification unless you actually have lightwave source code in front of you. Its a matter how much money you want to put in it. 10 years is too long for software to survive against the competition. Maya, max, cinema4d are the generalist software tools that dominate the low and high end market and there's no way lightwave can compete if it doesn't do something drastic soon.

kosmodave
08-05-2014, 12:05 AM
And anyone who believes that was all there was to it, no doubt also "owns" numerous landmark bridges.

:thumbsup: Made me laugh that did.

Dave.

Rayek
08-05-2014, 12:32 AM
10 years is too long for software to survive against the competition. Maya, max, cinema4d are the generalist software tools that dominate the low and high end market and there's no way lightwave can compete if it doesn't do something drastic soon.

...and do not forget Blender - it dominates the low end market for indie (game) developers. And also eats a big chunk out of the hobbyist market pie - a market Lightwave used to roam widespread, and which is no longer the case. Whether we like it or not, Blender did 'ruin' that segment somewhat for Lightwave, in my opinion.

Heck, I know I downloaded Blender years ago to augment Lightwave's shortcomings - and now I augment Blender with Lightwave's rendering from time to time. ;-)

On another note, another challenge for Lightwave is the sheer lack of interesting tutorials and training materials currently available . There is so much quality learning to download for free or commercial for Maya, Max, Blender, and C4d - and LW has utterly stagnated. I remember getting into Lightwave BECAUSE of all the cool tutorials and books (still have all those nice books: LW 3D 8 Cartoon Character Creation, Texturing, 7.5 Lighting, Albee's Character animation, Inside LW, Essential LW) - and then the flow stopped after v8. General interest in LW waned soon afterwards.

The amount of resources available for Blender borders on the verge of ridiculousness. As are the available free assets, scripts, etc. for it (one merely has to go visit Blendswap).

Maya also demands a fair share of tutorials and learning materials - defacto the standard, obviously. One just has to check out iAnimate and assorted online courses.

The one other thing I love about Blender is its (for better or worse) openness in terms of development. I just really like seeing how it develops on an almost weekly basis, as well as being able to read and check up on the developer's notes that appear regularly. Sure, this also opens the doors to complaining and nagging, but on the whole it has been absolutely refreshing for me. It creates a bond of sorts. I experience the same with Photoline - free public access to betas that come out every month really help solidify the mutually beneficial relationship between users and developer.

Newtek 3d division's utter silence irks tremendously in comparison. Coincidentally, so does Maxon's development which is shrouded in complete darkness. In my opinion it is an old-fashioned paradigm that belongs in the last century, and I noticed (for myself) that it lessens my enthusiasm for those two products quite a bit. It really is not limited to open source: compare allegorithmic's stance in this regard, and I find myself feeling motivated to try and use their products - their openness towards their users is again very refreshing and alluring.

I suppose Newtek got traumatized by their Core experience - but honestly, it is time to let it go, and make some sounds/vibes in the 3d community, because their silent treatment of their customers and users is, frankly, chasing potential and existing users off. Including myself.

JohnMarchant
08-05-2014, 02:21 AM
Yes i think the lack of any real engagement by LWG3D with the LightWave community is very frustrating and after the Core problems i can understand, but it has gone from one extreme to the other.

CaptainMarlowe
08-05-2014, 03:46 AM
Yes i think the lack of any real engagement by LWG3D with the LightWave community is very frustrating and after the Core problems i can understand, but it has gone from one extreme to the other.

Exactly. As I wrote in another thread, at least a foreword from M. Powers in the newsletters and some hopping in the forums by the leading team from time to time would help a bit. But this total blackout is getting exasperating.

Chris S. (Fez)
08-05-2014, 05:09 AM
We are possibly on the verge of yet another free feature-rich release in the 11 cycle. I think it is reasonable to expect Rob to address the community directly during Siggraph. Lightwave with VPR and nodal know-how is still one of the most flexible, fluid, underestimated rendering and surfacing solutions on the market. I can't wait to see what the team has been up to...in particular Matt's interface refinements and Mark's rendering optimizations.

saranine
08-05-2014, 05:44 AM
I subscribe to many companies' newsletters, even if I don't own, and don't plan to own, their 3D products. In the last 24 hours I have received Siggraph emails from the Foundry and Isotropix!!

If Isotropix [ Clarisse] can put energy into Siggraph what on earth is Newtek doing????????

Does Lightwave even exist? It seems to be doing its best imitation of a zombie.

robertoortiz
08-05-2014, 05:47 AM
The amount of resources available for Blender borders on the verge of ridiculousness. As are the available free assets, scripts, etc. for it (one merely has to go visit Blendswap).

.

there is no way t compete in that respect.
Videos in sites like Youtube are made so the developers of them can get paid in terms of hits. The user base of Blender is enormous thank in large part of its attractive base price (its free after all)

So how can Lw compete with this in terms of developing more video content?
You don't,
you cant it is a lost cause from the starting gate.
So what can you do?
You make an more streamlined version of LW that gives more emphasis on EASE OF USE. , Go in ther OTHER direction everyone else is going.
That is sure way to stand out.

Here is a great white paper by Carnegie Melon university about faliure of programs fro ma standpoint of both CODE and INTERFACE complexity.
The Impact of Interface Complexity on
Failures: an Empirical Analysis and
Implications for Tool Design
http://reports-archive.adm.cs.cmu.edu/anon/isr2010/CMU-ISR-10-100.pdf

lightscape
08-05-2014, 05:47 AM
...and do not forget Blender

I ignored it. I think you didn't read my post #23. Maya is king no matter where.
Indie is different to low end. Low end is low cost studios doing work for tv, ad marketting, viz work.
Lightwave can and still do thrive with low end.
Personally I wouldn't waste time targetting the indie sector which fails or goes bankcrupt most of the time.

robertoortiz
08-05-2014, 05:57 AM
.
I suppose Newtek got traumatized by their Core experience - but honestly, it is time to let it go, and make some sounds/vibes in the 3d community, because their silent treatment of their customers and users is, frankly, chasing potential and existing users off. Including myself.

And I bet a lot of people at NewTek feel that the USERBASE betrayed them During the development of CORE.
It is a delicate operation to develop a .0 version of an app, we were asked to join in and honestly WE blew it up.
With lack of patience,
With old school users fighting tools and nail AGAINST much needed radical change
And the established 3d Community (3D World I am looking at you) not letting the little guy catch up.
They KNEW that that hit piece would help KILL CORE and it did.

I know all of this sounds like a broken record but I need to bring what happened with CORE because honestly
The past is prologue.
All the decision that Newtek has made in the past 5 years stem from that fiasco.
Trust goes both ways.

robertoortiz
08-05-2014, 06:05 AM
I ignored it. I think you didn't read my post #23. Maya is king no matter where.
Indie is different to low end. Low end is low cost studios doing work for tv, ad marketting, viz work.
Lightwave can and still do thrive with low end.
Personally I wouldn't waste time targetting the indie sector which fails or goes bankcrupt most of the time.

Well I agree that Maya is King, but there are other markets that NT can look into. there is a lot of people who don't want to play in the Autodesk Playground,

Some market I could recommend.
Broadcast graphics (The NAB crowd that stills loves NT)
Virtual Sets (see above)
3D Printing
Graphic Design (this user base drops apps like crazy if they are offered something more efficient)
And yes
Indie games

Hell consider developing an APP for tables based on LW (I KID NOT)

erikals
08-05-2014, 06:08 AM
disagree with #79, the fall of Core was entirely NewTek's fault.
David Ikeda also stated this one year back, saying they (NT) were aiming too high.

as for things being silent, not sure if that affects the majority of LightWave users.

it's also most probably less silent in the beta section of this forum.

but hey, only 7 days until NT breaks that silence...

CaptainMarlowe
08-05-2014, 06:09 AM
I subscribe to many companies' newsletters, even if I don't own, and don't plan to own, their 3D products. In the last 24 hours I have received Siggraph emails from the Foundry and Isotropix!!

If Isotropix [ Clarisse] can put energy into Siggraph what on earth is Newtek doing????????

Does Lightwave even exist? It seems to be doing its best imitation of a zombie.

It is a bit far-fetched, ins't it ? Isotropix is going to Siggraph because they will showcase Clarisse V2.0, so they have a good reason to do so. I guess that if LW12 isn't to be showcased this year, 11.7 isn't a good reason enough to go to siggraph.
LW3DG did a hell of a job for the last previous siggraphs, and if I recall, they didn't attend the 2011 Vancouver edition not only to spare money but also to get a better location of their booth at the following Siggy. So not going to siggraph one year does't mean the software has stopped envelopment or that the company is dying.

robertoortiz
08-05-2014, 06:17 AM
It is a bit far-fetched, ins't it ? Isotropix is going to Siggraph because they will showcase Clarisse V2.0, so they have a good reason to do so. I guess that if LW12 isn't to be showcased this year, 11.7 isn't a good reason enough to go to siggraph.
LW3DG did a hell of a job for the last previous siggraphs, and if I recall, they didn't attend the 2011 Vancouver edition not only to spare money but also to get a better location of their booth at the following Siggy. So not going to siggraph one year does't mean the software has stopped envelopment or that the company is dying.
Agreed lets cut them some slack on that end....It is only Tuesday.

Hail
08-05-2014, 06:52 AM
Did David create IKB? IIRC, there was a serious language barrier there, which for whatever reason was never successfully bridged. IMO NewTek (at the time) never really grasped what the hell IKB is.

There's other language barriers, sometimes Programmerese<<>>User-ese , plus one language to another, still plaguing some plugins.
++++++++++

EDIT: from reading David's FB (?) post, I'm guessing he is NOT the developer I was told was a fantastic coder, but challenged by English.

IKB was created by Ino Daisuke.
Same guy who coded lw's native dynamics.

Oedo 808
08-05-2014, 07:18 AM
And I bet a lot of people at NewTek feel that the USERBASE betrayed them During the development of CORE.
It is a delicate operation to develop a .0 version of an app, we were asked to join in and honestly WE blew it up.
With lack of patience,
With old school users fighting tools and nail AGAINST much needed radical change
And the established 3d Community (3D World I am looking at you) not letting the little guy catch up.
They KNEW that that hit piece would help KILL CORE and it did.

This is such a ludicrous fantasy, I thought enough had been said not to have to read this kind of melodramatic crap any more, obviously not. I haven't seen you getting involved much when Core has be discussed more recently, you just seem to stay out of it and sit on the sidelines and just parrot rubbish like this every so often.


I know all of this sounds like a broken record but I need to bring what happened with CORE because honestly
The past is prologue.
All the decision that Newtek has made in the past 5 years stem from that fiasco.
Trust goes both ways.

When you make bad decisions that begin to turn into a bit of a fiasco then I'm quite sure it influencing your future decisions isn't a bad thing, I'm not sure where trust comes into it. The LWG got it wrong in Core (communication wise) because it wasn't very engaging, just a place to bug test betas. I never saw anything that would kill Core or even close to it, Core died because it couldn't survive on its own merit plain and simple, I know it's nice to dream that Core was about to be some amazing software revelation and that people who lack your unique perceptiveness and vision for the future killed it off rather than wake up to the fact that the only thing that killed Core, was Core.

robertoortiz
08-05-2014, 08:44 AM
Ok lets agree to disagree.

robertoortiz
08-05-2014, 09:16 AM
Ok lets agree to disagree.

Also I am sorry if I have not been more involved in those conversations, but I am knee deep in crunch time renders, and frankly I just missed them.
To make my earlier point, I FEEL STRONGLY that LW needs a rewrite of the app. I guess Unification will bring some of that.

50one
08-05-2014, 09:36 AM
Also I am sorry if I have not been more involved in those conversations, but I am knee deep in crunch time renders, and frankly I just missed them.
To make my earlier point, I FEEL STRONGLY that LW needs a rewrite of the app. I guess Unification will bring some of that.


I know it's hard to realize for most people but if you're talking about re-writing then we're talking couple of yours, plus every year there are new workflows etc. being introduced, therefore there will be always a "catching up", From my POV - key developer left a company, division however you call it, that was always understaffed and underrepresented. I'm waiting to se what LW12 will bring, but to be fair I'm rather 80% sure that I'll be dissapointed, why? Modeler is the 50%- I'm not using it and haven;t touched it in years, it's too slow and un-responsive, plus the split workflow is not for me...other 30% is the stuff that I wish would be there, but there's no way it will be implemented or fixed/improved.

Rewrite should have happened around v9.0, now it's too late, especially with additional tools implemented that have to be maintained(CS, NM).


May bad decisions were done in the past and it's sad to see once good app following the path it's following.

Amurrell
08-05-2014, 09:40 AM
These threads are always so depressing.

robertoortiz
08-05-2014, 10:13 AM
Rewrite should have happened around v9.0, now it's too late, especially with additional tools implemented that have to be maintained(CS, NM).


.

Agreed...And yes I even agreen on the release you mentioned that the rewite should have happened.
So what can NT do? I have some ideas, but I would love to hear yours.

GandB
08-05-2014, 10:52 AM
Personally I wouldn't waste time targetting the indie sector which fails or goes bankcrupt most of the time.

Care to elaborate on this? There are numerous projects that do not fail, or go bankrupt. Ignoring the Indie sector is a mistake, in my opinion; but NT have never listened to Indies, so why start now? :thumbsup:

cresshead
08-05-2014, 11:08 AM
siggraph update news for various 3d apps has started today...I do hope to hear something from the Lightwave 3D Group over the next couple of weeks for lightwave, nevronmotion and chronosculpt...maybe even something totally new?

robertoortiz
08-05-2014, 11:10 AM
Care to elaborate on this? There are numerous projects that do not fail, or go bankrupt. Ignoring the Indie sector is a mistake, in my opinion; but NT have never listened to Indies, so why start now? :thumbsup:

Agreed.
But I feel that is it is not too late yet.

Unity is ramping up fast and the indie platform for mobile and they are not too friendly with Autodesk.
The same with 3d printing. I would establish links with companies like Shapeways (and NT already is doing this BTW)

50one
08-05-2014, 12:28 PM
Agreed...And yes I even agreen on the release you mentioned that the rewite should have happened.
So what can NT do? I have some ideas, but I would love to hear yours.

To me it's simple / LW Group;
- Separate completely from Newtek(New Community with proper integrated forum into website, shwocasing soem excellent work) - Streamline and simplify the forums for goodnes sake, we don;t need 50 section and make sure not to highlight work that shouldn't be highlighted...
- EOL Lightwave & Modeller, give it away for free wahtever just EOL' it as soon as you can.
- Reduce the number of staff
- hire smaller office
- Focus completely on Chronosculpt and add modelling tools to it - other features(audio support, maybe some animation)
- Nevron Motion - make it Motion Builder competitor, make it work nicely with easily accessible hardware -
- Speak to the guys at sideFX and pair the Cronosculpt as a modeling app with it

I guess the virtual tools was a complete disatser in this regard, why creating something that could be used by a couple I repeat a couple of folks around the world?? Rest of us couldn't even get a hold of that Playstation app.....
what's the development time / cost vs. profit? Do the math...


- Some suggested working on the renderer...lease don;t it will just end resources and time and still LW *** will be beaten by the likes of Vray or Arnold


For Christ sake create a tool that can work with your Tricaster, motion graphics is a huge market, stop with that 90's mindset, we're not in the 90's anymore if you'r not engaging with your customers these days than I?'m sorry, but you will fail.

You had so many amazing opportunities in the past but you blew them off! And with this last para it's me saying C'ya later guys! All the best for the future, hopefully will get a chance to drink a beer or two with some of yous that are still here.

S

ianr
08-05-2014, 12:40 PM
Well Rob,
LW 12 I guess we will see Mr.Powers moving along the virtual road (VR)

with Oculus VR & possibly/hopefully the implementation of 'nested' navigation

for scenes he did for Avatar PreViz.

It's funny you guys haven't picked up of this.

Cos Kelly Kat Myers bless'im is giving it some time.

(Don't forget Facebook have put 2 Bil $ into Oculus)

See last LW newsletter launcher

Oculus Rift to Meet LightWave 3D:lwicon:
Dalton Industries announces development of new Virtual Reality plugin for LightWave 3D
Posted: Mon 23 Jun 2014
Dalton Industries Inc. has announced it has begun development of a new plug-in for LightWave3D
for use with the Oculus Rift next-gen Virtual Reality Head Mounted Display.
The final product will be retailed through Liberty3d.com.

Surrealist.
08-05-2014, 12:51 PM
Agreed...And yes I even agreen on the release you mentioned that the rewite should have happened.
So what can NT do? I have some ideas, but I would love to hear yours.

Actually by then in my opinion it was already too late. The time to start would have been right after the development split that spawned a now-popular LightWave spin-off. Just looking at it from a time perspective.

I don't hear a lot of people talking about the fact that NewTek was left with an app that should have been rewritten but couldn't be. It was no more practical then than it is now, or was 6 years ago.

And it went downhill from there on this particular subject. So now you have this completely unrealistic projection and attempt to set it all right. As if just coming out and claiming it will all be done in a short period of time would somehow fix it. That did not help.

Technology has changed a lot in the last 15 years so you can consider it somewhat lucky that they did not start rewriting 15 years ago. What was positive about core and still is, is the fact that they made a concerted effort to start with a new code and build from scratch.

It did not take too long for this to prove to be unrealistic as a short term project.

So what we have now is what they should have done with CORE in the first place and that would be to simply keep developing it silently in the background while gradually infusing it into LightWave.

To keep LightWave working and current customers with an app that is gradually improving, adding new features etc.

That is what they are doing. And we don't know or should not be concerned with how fast it can all happen. Not too many people here really have realistic projections that I can see anyway. So LW3DG is doing pretty much what they can. They should communicate more, that would help.

But at the end of the day, LW 12 will likely impress a lot of people and help with various workflows just as they have been doing with each release.

And it will continue to go up from there. Gradually, maybe a leap or two here and there. But gradually get better. If they just keep at it.

Marander
08-05-2014, 01:35 PM
Well after the Core debacle i have learnt not to jump on the next full release and wait to see what people say about it and see if i really need it. I really have to knuckle down and learn Blender i think, been saying it for ages but the UI really puts me off still.

I will wait for 12 and see what it offers, but if it is as i suspect and no real improvements and advances in modeler then i might give it a miss and model in Blender and render in LW. I do hope i and we are wrong and we are going to have our socks blown off but i have been thinking this for some time and it has not happened. I want LWG3D to address the problems and half integrated tools in LW 12, i dont want new features in 12, i just want all what we have to work properly across the board and be fully implemented (Bullet, Genoma, Instances, Python) im looking at you.

I think modeler has to be the focus now, its had very little attention in the past and is seriously falling behind. Id also like the content updated as well, menu layouts, presets, example scenes etc.


I completely agree! I love using LightWave but my biggest wish is that all the existing features are better arranged and accessible (e.g. IKBooster which is a big ??? for me). So many wonderful tools are hidden somewhere in sub-menus. I just don't have all this time at the moment to find some mysterious ways how to do some things in LightWave when it could be so better organized GUI-wise with little programming efforts. Nevertheless I thank NewTek for constantly improving LightWave and I am very exited for the upcoming dot release.

It's very interesting to see how some things work easier in Blender but I can just not (yet) get warm with the interface and in my opinion LightWave still offers so much more.

A huge THANK YOU too all of you, it's bombastic what you guys provide to the community; ideas, solutions, inspiring artworks, commercial plugins, tutorials, mock-ups and much more!

Cheers, Marander


Edit: Some things I'd like to see in 11.7/12
- Dialog boxes dockable (object / light properties, particle properties / dynamic fx etc)
- Integration of most important "plugins" for example in motion properties
- Graph / Scene / Node editor dockable or better integrated
- Dope Editor / Timeline improvements
- Combination of motion options, IKBooster, Genoma, Skelegons etc.
- Combined light properties for Lens Flares and Volumetric Lights
- Of course also Modeler / Layout unification but I don't see that realistic

I also agree that Motion Graphics would be an interesting market. I fear some day Adobe buys Maxon / Cinema which drastically reduces NewTek's chances in this market. A limited free version of LightWave maybe bundled with Adobe programs would be a big door opener.

m.d.
08-05-2014, 03:10 PM
To me it's simple / LW Group;
- Separate completely from Newtek(New Community with proper integrated forum into website, shwocasing soem excellent work) - Streamline and simplify the forums for goodnes sake, we don;t need 50 section and make sure not to highlight work that shouldn't be highlighted...
- EOL Lightwave & Modeller, give it away for free wahtever just EOL' it as soon as you can.
- Reduce the number of staff
- hire smaller office
- Focus completely on Chronosculpt and add modelling tools to it - other features(audio support, maybe some animation)
- Nevron Motion - make it Motion Builder competitor, make it work nicely with easily accessible hardware -
- Speak to the guys at sideFX and pair the Cronosculpt as a modeling app with it



I agree with some of this, but Nevron Motion a motionbuilder competitor is a complete daydream.....Its a re targeting plugin for LW for a preset rig that has already been superseded by Rhiggit....and the single kinect integration is only using microsoft SDK that breckel and others have integrated. I sold my license of nevron motion a while ago as the kinect results were too noisy and jittery to use.
To make it a motionbuilder competitor is a lofty goal when it cold barely compete with the free Ikinema Web animate.

Chronosculpt has some potential, but as revolutionary as people think it is....practically all the features have been in Zbrush for some time....animated MDD import and MDD editing in layers, retiming and export....
and its much faster within zbrush at the high polygon levels. CS just puts it in a streamlined package and user friendly interface.

I wouldn't be so quick to abandon the product base for a few 1 trick ponies....after all currently LW best feature over the competition is brand loyalty.

IMHO what LW needs to do is implement proper FINISHED tools...and finish the ones that are not

Why do we have bullet 1/2 implemented with no constraints....when it is fully implemented in Nuke
Why does the fracture tool in realflow work 100% of the time with no stray polys
Why can Fusion do better text bevelling

LW group has a habit of quickly implementing tools then abandoning development further. IKBoost...Hypervoxels....Motion Mixer....ect ect ect.
Or implementing tools that are never quite good enough for production ala fiberFX.

The deformations, for example is still terrible.
I have an old copy of Maya 8 on my system....and its character tools and deformation system will simply run circles around LW and that is over 8 years old.
LW still does not have the ability for corrective morphs....it must be the only 3d tool in existence to not yet have this implemented.

They have made great strides recently and bullet was a start, fiberfx still being developed and not abandoned is a good sign, but a few things have remain untouched for years.

Dexter2999
08-05-2014, 03:24 PM
I think the high end sudio tools and advanced 3D imaging like Oculus is a legitimate target but in the end they are just above "niche" markets for LW.

The "indy" market is the Adobe After Effects market. And LW needs to have a more modern (not QT in my view) interface with bulletproof fundamental tools, to include text tools and motion graphics tools that work with and independently of TriCaster.

Marander
08-05-2014, 03:32 PM
Aaaahh check out http://www.maxon.net/products/new-in-cinema-4d-r16/workflow.html
I want to cry...

...still happily waiting for LW 11.7 :-)

...and to be fair it has a different price tag.

JohnMarchant
08-05-2014, 04:39 PM
As you said, different price point and C4D Studio IMO is the wrong price point, for that price region i would get Maya.

tburbage
08-05-2014, 08:30 PM
He left. You can see info on his facebook page and here - http://www.rendering.de - "LW Group sucht" article.
That is truly depressing news... I'm glad to see the job req as an indication of some level of continued commitment, but how long would it take even a very experienced developer to get their head around a 20 year old legacy code base much less work out how to implement significant innovation around it? It sounded from the outside looking in like David was committed to some really significant improvements to the modeling landscape, so his decision to quit isn't a great sign...

I do want to say regarding "bolted on minor features" that I don't think of what the team has done in general in the LW11 time frame should be characterized in any sense as "minor features" -- I personally think they are strong additions to the product -- but do agree that broad evolution at the architectural or user interface level has yet to be made evident.

ncr100
08-06-2014, 12:57 AM
...how long would it take even a very experienced developer to get their head around a 20 year old legacy code base much less work out how to implement significant innovation around it?...

I'd make two wild-assed guesses. In the best case, the programmer could get start to make good progress within the first month. In an below average / bad case, three to six months before they become productive.

- the hire's tenacity + individualism
- the company culture's and their managers (if they have managers, and all of them including product mgr's) degree of cohesion and clarity
- the task's 'graspability'
- and the code-base's degree of 'maintainability'.

As I'd assume you're aware of, confusing requirements, confusing people, confusing tools, confusing job roles, confusing personal motivations, all can tweak the productive potential.

tyrot
08-06-2014, 12:59 AM
i cannot bare the depression level of this thread..

i am sorry but - LW's fathers left Lightwave and it was not dead then - and after Ikeda - it wont be dead.. As long as we use it.. There are many plugins - great features that makes our life easier.

I am very happy with my LWCAD - LW - OCTANE - (unity exporter) combo .. Whatever NT brings - im all for it..

Roberto also all is a bit your fault mate.. You keep acting like you are product supervisor of LW. You keep posting thread after thread - after thread...that NT should do this, NT should get this - LW should make this..

Man dont you think for a second - if THEY could - they would... Why keep bothering us and them with your endless TO DO LIST... like you are the authority of 3D industry and 3D messiah who comes to planet earth to save LW's future..

LW future is secure...you know why?

Because of VICTOR (LWCAD), RYAN ROYE (IKB) , KAT, ERIKALS, THE RENDERER SAINT JUAN, MIKE GREEN and many other contributing user base. As long as you contribute what you have we are all OK we will be all ok.

So if you have power to buy Lightwave - please do - and accomplish your - long to do list- with your own resources..we will support you -

so guys please end this depression :) sky is not falling. thanks to you...

saranine
08-06-2014, 02:34 AM
Lightwave isn't secure because of me? What?

Every4thPixel
08-06-2014, 04:38 AM
i cannot bare the depression level of this thread..

i am sorry but - LW's fathers left Lightwave and it was not dead then - and after Ikeda - it wont be dead.. As long as we use it.. There are many plugins - great features that makes our life easier.

I am very happy with my LWCAD - LW - OCTANE - (unity exporter) combo .. Whatever NT brings - im all for it..

Roberto also all is a bit your fault mate.. You keep acting like you are product supervisor of LW. You keep posting thread after thread - after thread...that NT should do this, NT should get this - LW should make this..

Man dont you think for a second - if THEY could - they would... Why keep bothering us and them with your endless TO DO LIST... like you are the authority of 3D industry and 3D messiah who comes to planet earth to save LW's future..

LW future is secure...you know why?

Because of VICTOR (LWCAD), RYAN ROYE (IKB) , KAT, ERIKALS, THE RENDERER SAINT JUAN, MIKE GREEN and many other contributing user base. As long as you contribute what you have we are all OK we will be all ok.

So if you have power to buy Lightwave - please do - and accomplish your - long to do list- with your own resources..we will support you -

so guys please end this depression :) sky is not falling. thanks to you...

Well said! Well said!

but Erikals? Nothing personal but I don't see him as a big addition to the LW community. His tutorials if you even could call it tutorials are mostly superficial and only show how to press buttons. You will not learn a lot from him. I have to agree some videos are handy as a quick tour guide to show you what a plugin does but that's it. You can replace his name with RebelHill for example. But of course the are a lot of contributors that make LW awesome. I'm not trying to start and argument about contributers but I just couldn't figure out why you added his name there.

djwaterman
08-06-2014, 05:14 AM
Whenever I see these kinds of threads, I try to steer clear of them and not comment, hoping they will burn themselves out. However that rarely happens and they seem to live forever, partly because they tend to have grandiose headers that sound almost like announcements of important news, yet mostly contain conjecture and fantasy by people unconnected to LW's development. It'd be better to have specific targeted threads outlining a specific complaint if one wants to bring up some perceived deficiency, I can't imagine LW3DG having the time to digest the lengthy and random flow of opinion here, indeed I hope they aren't getting drawn in and are just continuing to improve Lightwave, and not feeling pressured to make some token announcement at this years SIGGRAPH just to please the user base.

(p.s. I've found Erikal's investigative videos very helpful, sometimes you just want to know what a thing does, it's a real chore to record and upload videos so I appreciate him doing us all this service. )

Every4thPixel
08-06-2014, 05:31 AM
Whenever I see these kinds of threads, I try to steer clear of them and not comment, hoping they will burn themselves out. However that rarely happens and they seem to live forever, partly because they tend to have grandiose headers that sound almost like announcements of important news, yet mostly contain conjecture and fantasy by people unconnected to LW's development. It'd be better to have specific targeted threads outlining a specific complaint if one wants to bring up some perceived deficiency, I can't imagine LW3DG having the time to digest the lengthy and random flow of opinion here, indeed I hope they aren't getting drawn in and are just continuing to improve Lightwave, and not feeling pressured to make some token announcement at this years SIGGRAPH just to please the user base.

(p.s. I've found Erikal's investigative videos very helpful, sometimes you just want to know what a thing does, it's a real chore to record and upload videos so I appreciate him doing us all this service. )

I agree with everything you said! Even with the erikals part ;). I just think he doesn't belong in the list of the brilliant guys that write these awesome plugins. That's just to much credit :D

tyrot
08-06-2014, 05:56 AM
every4thpixel - of course Rebelhill - i am sorry how did i forget his name..excuse me Rebel - you know you are ALMOST GODLIKE in character animation..and just like many others i have nothing but respect...to his work. and many others.

On Erikals though - he is THE ONE who has never ending passion to try and show new things without any commercial feedback. I dont know but i guess he has hundreds of videos of the things - that ANY user must see. I watch his youtube channel like a TV show honestly - weekly. Because when he shows or try to do something i know that he is helping my business. He could do that on his own.

Also he has a huge database - info about LW, plugins and an amazing contributor. Ask a question on anything - if he knows the answer, he replies or he replies with the source that where you can learn your answer. I feel like i rely on ERIKALS youtube channel more than LW's own PDF file... So he deserves credit and more...

wesleycorgi
08-06-2014, 06:04 AM
LW future is secure...you know why?

Because of VICTOR (LWCAD), RYAN ROYE (IKB) , KAT, ERIKALS, THE RENDERER SAINT JUAN, MIKE GREEN and many other contributing user base. As long as you contribute what you have we are all OK we will be all ok.

Yes, that is what I have always found LW's saving grace — the active LW community that creates some pretty cool (and often free) tools and tutorials. (Dpont, RH, Hurley, etc.)

Where I find LW themselves lacking right now is educating the market better. If no new product is on the horizon, provide (more) tutorials on how to improve our workflows. We get some with each new release, but they always seem like teases and it falls upon 3rd parties or the community to fill in the gaps.

Also, LW should provide some kind of developer's workshop for LW Python development. By broadening its developer community can only help LW.

Snosrap
08-06-2014, 08:13 AM
Whenever I see these kinds of threads, I try to steer clear of them and not comment, hoping they will burn themselves out. However that rarely happens and they seem to live forever, partly because they tend to have grandiose headers that sound almost like announcements of important news I had no idea David had quit and truly thought it would be a positive thread - NT adding to their development staff. :foreheads

Hail
08-06-2014, 09:13 AM
Well said! Well said!

but Erikals? Nothing personal but I don't see him as a big addition to the LW community. His tutorials if you even could call it tutorials are mostly superficial and only show how to press buttons. You will not learn a lot from him. I have to agree some videos are handy as a quick tour guide to show you what a plugin does but that's it. You can replace his name with RebelHill for example. But of course the are a lot of contributors that make LW awesome. I'm not trying to start and argument about contributers but I just couldn't figure out why you added his name there.

Ouch!
Erikals must be feeling very encouraged by this talk.
Smh!

Riff_Masteroff
08-06-2014, 09:28 AM
Yes, his 'contributions' are more than welcome !

jeric_synergy
08-06-2014, 09:29 AM
While I may wish Erikals enunciated a bit more clearly on his videos, he is performing a very valuable service to the community by digging thru MULTITUDES of under-scrutinized functions.

OH, and did I include "UNDER DOCUMENTED"? :devil:

The "Select N Pattern" function, for example, judging by the lack of hits in the PDFs for "Select nth" (its official name in the Menu Editor), is completely undocumented. Even if it IS documented somewhere, the fact that searching for it is so unproductive means it might as well not be. If users can't find it easily, it is effectively undocumented.

So, Erikals performs a valuable service by freely posting and examining the nooks and crannies of the LW toolset.

bazsa73
08-06-2014, 12:35 PM
Hail to Erik!

jwiede
08-06-2014, 12:51 PM
i cannot bare the depression level of this thread.. .

Oh look, one of the Lightwave Faithful is trying to silence dissenting opinions by attacking people... tiresome and droll. Zzzzzz.

RudySchneider
08-06-2014, 01:31 PM
Oh look, one of the Lightwave Faithful is trying to silence dissenting opinions by attacking people...

Huh? Did I miss something? Where is the "attack?"

erikals
08-06-2014, 01:44 PM
thanks for the positive notes http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/smile.gif


http://forums.newtek.com/images/misc/quote_icon.pngEvery4thPixel
I agree with everything you said! Even with the erikals part... http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/wink.gif

so you do like me...! http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/047.gif

jwiede
08-06-2014, 01:50 PM
Huh? Did I miss something? Where is the "attack?"

So you see nothing at all personally attacking about his comments to Roberto? I do. Whatever feelings you have about Roberto's posting, blaming him for this thread and/or situation is ridiculous and unfounded. The responsibility for the negativity expressed in this thread falls nigh-all on LW3DG, for their complete failure to meaningfully communicate with their customers.

If tyrot didn't like the thread, he shouldn't have read it.

ncr100
08-06-2014, 01:59 PM
+jwiede Word! :)

And I'd like to refocus on soothing 3d checkerboards. Because. They are still the coolest. 123531 123532 If that doesn't help: http://www.pugbomb.me/ (refresh)

prometheus
08-06-2014, 02:17 PM
thanks for the positive notes http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/smile.gif



so you do like me...! http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/047.gif

Im sure erikals can sleep well..knowing that so many of us appreciate his video documentations,suggestions and tips...go erik..go erik.:)

bazsa73
08-06-2014, 02:58 PM
The more aggressive you are the lousier your reel is if there's any. So, never mind the bigmouth bollocks who try to oppress you for your opinion.

erikals
08-06-2014, 03:33 PM
can't we all just leave in pieces...

tyrot
08-06-2014, 05:10 PM
thanks for the nickname..:)


faithfully yours...:)

lightscape
08-06-2014, 05:44 PM
Care to elaborate on this? There are numerous projects that do not fail, or go bankrupt. Ignoring the Indie sector is a mistake, in my opinion; but NT have never listened to Indies, so why start now? :thumbsup:

The reality is some indie projects are sold as a product from dreams of individuals. This is not a good idea. Nobody gives a frak about someone elses dream. A product should be consumer based. What they want and what they need.

Typical scenario of a dreamer
http://www.polygon.com/2014/7/31/5949433/the-cost-of-a-game-studio

A lot of indie project trying to get funding or did get funding fail
http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-08-21/kickstarter-s-funded-projects-see-some-stumbles
http://mashable.com/2012/06/21/more-than-half-of-kickstarter-projects-fail-does-it-matter/
http://www.theverge.com/2013/8/7/4594824/less-than-10-percent-of-projects-on-indiegogo-get-fully-funded

I know you're an aspiring game artist. A lot of people who are in the game industry know that indie means people who are broke. They would use blender instead because it costs nothing. This is why blender is stronger in the indie market. But who cares really.
Why do you think Lux ignores indie game dev, too? Over there are talks about modo should just give up on indie game industry. Its not only lightwave that has ignored indie.
I've been part of 3 indie tech projects. 2 product based indie failed in the last 5 years and I attribute that to poor stretch goals and product following.
The last one, an fps game, is struggling right now because frankly its an oversaturated genre. But I never quit my day job doing these indie projects because the money is never good and only reason to them is to diversify skills and experience and to kill time.
For companies like newtek, foundry that pay employees I think they're better spent targetting profitable markets with lower risks. Indie is high risk low return.

BokadCastle
08-06-2014, 10:13 PM
One of the Nastiest thing I have ever seen In all the years covering 3d is the article 3d World Magazine wrote about a WIP version of CORE. It was plan and simple a "hit piece" .
That really was an undeserved and nasty piece of work and In my opinion it helped kill CORE .
Here is what I am talking about..
http://forums.newtek.com/archive/index.php/t-111598.html
It permanently soured NT in terms of sharing what they are working for and frankly I don't blame them.

Bollocks...you didn't get it then and still don,t.
What killed CORE was the intrusion of cretins into the HardCore forums, poisoning the whole experience.

HardCore is for the one-percenters who would do anything to succeed.

Irrelevance is the only thing you excel at, Ortiz - just like madness was to Megadon and red devils to Mr Wyatt.

The change presented by CORE was too much for the feeble-minded like you - go on, admit it.

djwaterman
08-06-2014, 11:26 PM
Manners.

BokadCastle
08-06-2014, 11:46 PM
Manners - pretence?

Dexter2999
08-06-2014, 11:52 PM
Gee and here I thought what killed CORE was that it was over budget, two years over schedule, and still had no discernible/marketable strategy to introduce a three part software package where one part was unusable with the render/ animation part of the package.

Trolls didn't kill CORE. Media didn't kill CORE. CORE was just a bunch of good ideas without a workable plan to get to market. So, it died. And many of the good ideas lived on to get ported into LW, like VPR, Bullet Engine, and Python scripting.

And I hope in time we will get more of those good ideas, like a better poly engine, a unified program, and a history stack.

I am amazed at how polarized and romanticized people's memories of CORE seem to be.

BokadCastle
08-07-2014, 12:13 AM
HardCore is forever,,,whatever it takes.

I thought that's what I was joining.

Non CORE people say they're leaving.

OK.

jeric_synergy
08-07-2014, 12:46 AM
I am amazed at how polarized and romanticized people's memories of CORE seem to be.
And everything else you said.

What I know, and I was part of that group, was that two knowledgable people I respect highly thought CORE was a crock, and that I personally thought it was a bizarre MAYA-lite. When Splinegod and Kat Myers confirmed my opinion and backed it up with wide ranging experience, that was enough for me.

Wickedpup
08-07-2014, 01:10 AM
I am amazed at how polarized and romanticized people's memories of CORE seem to be.
Let us not forget the other side of "polarized", those that downplays what CORE was and calls it crock :hey:

jeric_synergy
08-07-2014, 01:55 AM
Except, y'know, we were there and testing it.

Lewis
08-07-2014, 02:03 AM
Except, y'know, we were there and testing it.

Obviously not enough since you said yourself you were listening other users opinion more than yourself ;).

Wickedpup
08-07-2014, 02:10 AM
Except, y'know, we were there and testing it.
Suggesting that those with an opposite view of yours did not? Can only hope you see the fallacy in your argument :foreheads

sculptactive
08-07-2014, 02:23 AM
I thought Chronosculpt really was/is a step in the right direction, but David leaving is just another "nail in the coffin" for me where LW is concerned.

lardbros
08-07-2014, 06:45 AM
One of the Nastiest thing I have ever seen In all the years covering 3d is the article 3d World Magazine wrote about a WIP version of CORE. It was plan and simple a "hit piece" .
That really was an undeserved and nasty piece of work and In my opinion it helped kill CORE .
Here is what I am talking about..
http://forums.newtek.com/archive/index.php/t-111598.html
It permanently soured NT in terms of sharing what they are working for and frankly I don't blame them.

Wasn't this article written by Newtek's very own BeeVee? He was just being honest.
Not trying to lynch Ben, I think what he was saying was just the truth!

Oedo 808
08-07-2014, 08:58 AM
Wasn't this article written by Newtek's very own BeeVee? He was just being honest.
Not trying to lynch Ben, I think what he was saying was just the truth!

I hadn't realized that, makes it even more funny it should be described as a hit piece.

If only those who thought Core was amazing could gather the funding, they could fund a new 3D app written from the ground up, maybe they could open a Kickstarter campaign, given the expectations I've seen on here regarding software development, I reckon a $50 target ought to do it, would be good to see how they get on.

allabulle
08-07-2014, 09:17 AM
every4thpixel - of course Rebelhill - i am sorry how did i forget his name..excuse me Rebel - you know you are ALMOST GODLIKE in character animation..and just like many others i have nothing but respect...to his work. and many others.

On Erikals though - he is THE ONE who has never ending passion to try and show new things without any commercial feedback. I dont know but i guess he has hundreds of videos of the things - that ANY user must see. I watch his youtube channel like a TV show honestly - weekly. Because when he shows or try to do something i know that he is helping my business. He could do that on his own.

Also he has a huge database - info about LW, plugins and an amazing contributor. Ask a question on anything - if he knows the answer, he replies or he replies with the source that where you can learn your answer. I feel like i rely on ERIKALS youtube channel more than LW's own PDF file... So he deserves credit and more...

+1

octopus2000
08-07-2014, 10:10 AM
what's stopping newtek from just rebuilding lightwave from the ground up?

Oedo 808
08-07-2014, 10:21 AM
what's stopping newtek from just rebuilding lightwave from the ground up?

I would imagine the fact that I, and even the people who say "what's stopping newtek from just rebuilding lightwave from the ground up?" won't wait that long.

Surrealist.
08-07-2014, 12:56 PM
what's stopping newtek from just rebuilding lightwave from the ground up?

They are as far as I understand. So nothing is stopping them.

First, this is a long process, second they also have to balance having something they can market along the way. And the second adds more time to the first. But it is the way it is.

jwiede
08-07-2014, 01:12 PM
Except, y'know, we were there and testing it.

Yes, we were, and not all of us thought it was a crock. There are still customers left here who believe it was the right decision then, and by all indications, still a better plan than any attempted since.

Sadly, it increasingly appears that Roth was correct: The window to turn LW's fortunes around closed with CORE's cancelation, and the rest will just turn out to be an extended swan song.

motivalex
08-07-2014, 01:19 PM
They already started re-writing it for a bit now. Instancing, bullet in 11.x etc could not happen otherwise. They are just doing it in a careful way to allow modest updates to happen without it all falling over. As more of the code structure is modernised and replaced, the more obvious to us it will be that deep changes are happening offering us improved and new functionality. That's what I think. Hopefully they have spent good time on the re-design and not let it become the LW6 botched attempt the old team did. LW12 which I presume will be out in the next couple of years, I'm guessing will be a very different but similar beast. I try and be a optimist. Meanwhile Houdini Indie is calling by credit card to buy it and Cinema 4d Studio looks cool too.

MrWyatt
08-07-2014, 01:34 PM
Bollocks...you didn't get it then and still don,t.
What killed CORE was the intrusion of cretins into the HardCore forums, poisoning the whole experience.

HardCore is for the one-percenters who would do anything to succeed.

Irrelevance is the only thing you excel at, Ortiz - just like madness was to Megadon and red devils to Mr Wyatt.

The change presented by CORE was too much for the feeble-minded like you - go on, admit it.



And you are still full of sh**. Good to know that some things never change. Just hoped you would. Bummer.

Snosrap
08-07-2014, 02:52 PM
They already started re-writing it for a bit now. Apparently they are as one of the Programming Skills bullet points for this new hire is. "Experience with the Qt multi-platform toolkit is a plus." Current LW sure doesn't use Qt.

lardbros
08-07-2014, 03:45 PM
There are already loads of qt related files in the LightWave installation. Not sure what they're for currently, but there are plenty of them.

Oedo 808
08-07-2014, 03:48 PM
Yes, we were, and not all of us thought it was a crock. There are still customers left here who believe it was the right decision then, and by all indications, still a better plan than any attempted since.

Sadly, it increasingly appears that Roth was correct: The window to turn LW's fortunes around closed with CORE's cancelation, and the rest will just turn out to be an extended swan song.

In what way do you think that window is closed? I wonder if LightWave is losing such a vast amount of money, if it isn't then the window is as open as it always was. Instead of winding down current LightWave sales and yet still paying the current development team while they build anew, could they not just hire a completely new team? Rather than moving current LightWave into new product territory with next to no income and user base, they can still simply make a new product, like Core, and launch it in ten years. Going on the assumption that this is a viable course for the development path of LightWave, why could it not be so with an entirely new development even now?

If it is losing vast amounts then there isn't and appreciable user base to worry about diminishing or any significant change in development cost to worry about so the window is still there, and in that case at least they wouldn't have to avoid managing people's expectations.

I'm not sure what has changed, was it the advance sales of Core that made it possible?

Farhad_azer
08-07-2014, 04:38 PM
Fellas

I am new to this community and i should say that this thread was the most dissapointing and sad thing that i have read in my entire life of involving with 3d graphics.

I have almost zero artistic taste and rely only on my technical background. i was hearing that LW is a competitor and is almost the best in some aspects.

Thu i could not read all answers but from what i read it was conveying that LW is way below than what i knew.

I absolutely understand my level and confess that i am not in a position to make comparison on high-end topics.

But the feeling that i got from this thread was simply "discouragement" .

tyrot
08-07-2014, 04:47 PM
farhad dont worry mate..lw is very cool app with lots of amazing plugins and rendering options... just relax... there are some old issues... and think about that lw is not another 3d app...it has too much drama...twists and turns....

if i know a bit about this forum...soon rob powers will visit here...clarify some issues...people will be ok till next siggraph...

so we are having a pre siggraph period;)..

jasonwestmas
08-07-2014, 04:48 PM
I don't think I've ever heared Lightwave (12 years owning this product) be called a high end CG package. Newtek has always marketed it as a quick turnround tool with less hassle and high quality in some respects. Mostly the rendering capabilities. So chin up, LW is still in that kind of market, just that the more convoluted packages out there are becoming easier to use these days, which is bad for Lightwave gaining more ground.

paulhart
08-07-2014, 04:53 PM
Farhad_azer, Hello... and welcome to Lightwave. This is a troublesome thread to use as any measure of Lightwave or Newtek. The software has been around for awhile now and is still very capable. Easier to get into than most any other that I use. The trouble is that many of the "old timers" and malcontents have too much history and expectations and venting on the web is a bit like monkeys throwing s*** around, barely entertaining and certainly not the best representation of what monkeys are all about. There is a long standing history of Lightwave being two(2) apps, cobbled together with the Hub. Eventually, most think that it will become a more unified app, but it "bumps along" fairly well as is. The rendering engine is superb, texturing and nodes more intuitive than some others. There are some excellent plugins worth investigating to fill in some of the gaps, RebelHill, DPont, LWCad, just to name a few. Look around at the Gallery and the work before letting some "slash and burn" thread derail your interest. It would help if Lightwave management contributed some light, but they feel burned by some previous efforts and in a competitive market, everybody tends to keep their cards close to themselves. Believe me, this is not the best thread to judge any of Lightwaves potential, now or in the future. I keep using it, along with modo, Blender, 3DCoat, some ZBrush, and come back to it repeatedly to get the job done. Best to you.
Paul

cresshead
08-07-2014, 07:06 PM
Farhad_azer welcome to the lightwave community

lightwave is certainly quite capable, just look at the VFx work done on recent tv shows with lightwave as an example.
All 3d apps have good and bad points, you'll find most forums have users talking more about what their app of choice is struggling with..it's a support forum
after all :)

Newtek are aware and are addressing any short commings that their users bring up in conversations.
there are some great 3rd party solutions to bridge any gaps with scripts and plugins.

most medium to large projects have a mixed pipeline these days so may get modelled in zbrush, painted in 3d coat, rigged and animated in lightwave or another app and rendered out in lightwave
or might be rendered with a plugin renderer such as octane in lightwave.

jwiede
08-07-2014, 09:48 PM
i was hearing that LW is a competitor and is almost the best in some aspects.

Sounds like you needed to do more due diligence.

tburbage
08-07-2014, 10:13 PM
Apparently they are as one of the Programming Skills bullet points for this new hire is. "Experience with the Qt multi-platform toolkit is a plus." Current LW sure doesn't use Qt.
Well, these .dlls are loaded into both Layout.exe and Modeler.exe's process spaces: QtCore4.dll, QtGui4.dll, QtXml4.dll.

jeric_synergy
08-07-2014, 10:34 PM
Obviously not enough since you said yourself you were listening other users opinion more than yourself ;).

Merely confirmation.

BokadCastle
08-08-2014, 12:29 AM
And you are still full of sh**. Good to know that some things never change. Just hoped you would. Bummer.

What no red faces.

BokadCastle
08-08-2014, 12:35 AM
...and your language has changed.,,,WTF.

BokadCastle
08-08-2014, 12:40 AM
luv ya, N.

sukardi
08-08-2014, 01:29 AM
Fellas
But the feeling that i got from this thread was simply "discouragement" .

Hi Farhad, Lightwave is still a very capable package especially in the hands of experienced users. However, if you look at the announcements for the incoming Siggraph by other vendors, it is clear that the game has moved on.

Lightwave need a complete rewrite and a substantially upgraded architecture to stay relevant. That is why we need LW12 to be mindblowingly good and we need it fast. Failing that I really don't see LW getting another chance...

Every4thPixel
08-08-2014, 02:50 AM
thanks for the positive notes http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/smile.gif



so you do like me...! http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/047.gif

Yes I do mate! It's not all black or white. There are many shades of gray. ;)

Oedo 808
08-08-2014, 07:13 AM
Yes I do mate! It's not all black or white. There are many shades of gray. ;)

Somewhere between forty-nine and fifty-one? :eek:

Snosrap
08-08-2014, 07:28 AM
Well, these .dlls are loaded into both Layout.exe and Modeler.exe's process spaces: QtCore4.dll, QtGui4.dll, QtXml4.dll. Yep and indeed some Qt is evident in the software too, -see attached- just not in the main part of what we would call the application interface.

Farhad_azer
08-08-2014, 08:40 AM
Thanks for your kind replies.

I will definitley work hard with LW and going to stick with it.

the office that i am working (actually was working) had 3dsmax and they were using it for mainly architectural visualizations.i also know how to use max but don't have it in my home. and honestly don't have desire and time (and money) to spend on it.

I was thinking maybe by LightWave i can create more impressive imagery than what they did, and agree that the artist is the more important factore than the software itself.

But i am still on the negative impression of this thread.

Cheers

octopus2000
08-08-2014, 09:15 AM
all this talk about lightwave's future sounds so gloomy. is lightwave12 going to kick a$s? is lightwave still going to be around in 5 years? softimage was an excellent software and got killed off and autodesk is a big company and they still killed a great software.

rwhunt99
08-08-2014, 11:19 AM
I can't help but say that LW has come a long way, and is so much better than it used to be. If you simply stop for a minute and see the positives, but no these people simply feed off each others attitudes and see the rut you are in, you need to chill out. I am saddened that new people like FR_haz get the wrong idea about Light Wave 3D by the negative tone put out by a few people who obviously use it, but have nothing better than bad mouth it all the stinking time. Software will never be perfect, everyone has different ways they like to work, they have been exposed to different packages and they like certain things in all the different software out there. I am really burnt out on reading the same old whining all the time, it reflects on those who post about their attitudes and how the project themselves on others. Not only those long timers, but also the new people who are just getting to either explore the software or are comparing to buy a 3D package. I'm sorry, rant over.

Triodin
08-08-2014, 11:55 AM
I'll pop on to say that Lightwave was and still continues to be my program of choice for 3D - the workflow totally clicked with me, and I personally love the two app pipeline, helps me stay focused on getting my project done fast and with great results. Can't wait to see what LW12 will bring when it releases in the future!

jasonwestmas
08-08-2014, 04:42 PM
I think the positive notes carry more weight if we know what you all do with Lightwave. It would help the image of lightwave if that is what people are worried about here.

Triodin
08-08-2014, 05:51 PM
I've used Lightwave as a freelancer for two "as seen on tv" national TV spots with crazy tight turnaround times and I also use it in the day job creating animated gifs and other design elements for print and email campaigns.

Will def need to dig up some renders or links to the final files.

They might not be pixar quality productions, but the client was happy and I made money on the deals and still had time to spend with my family - which I think goes along with what you were saying before Jason about that's kinda LW's niche as something it does well.

EDIT: Here's a fun email header for the Kansas City Speedway I did last year, used hypervoxels for the smoke effect. Blew the client away for their email and my boss loved that I didn't need to buy any of the particle plugins for after effects and got it done before deadline!

123580

EDIT 2: And this is for a killer printing company that does metallic and perlecent film treatments. Bullet dynamics & fracture - done in 20 minutes and it's way cooler than some 2D fracture filter in AE or Premiere. Also vortexed the pieces, which was fun to do.

123581

I guess I think LW is awesome because it's fast, easy to use, and it makes me look like a rock star at work when I can output designs with cool 3d flurishes all by myself.

I hope that kinda fills in the gaps for my positive outlook on things :D

jasonwestmas
08-08-2014, 07:31 PM
Thanks for sharing!

Megalodon2.0
08-08-2014, 07:36 PM
but Erikals? Nothing personal but I don't see him as a big addition to the LW community. His tutorials if you even could call it tutorials are mostly superficial and only show how to press buttons. You will not learn a lot from him. I have to agree some videos are handy as a quick tour guide to show you what a plugin does but that's it.

What a nasty thing to say. I have learned a GREAT DEAL from erikals and he's been very helpful. I have been using LW since '96 and v3 on the Amiga.

Snosrap
08-08-2014, 07:41 PM
I love erikals too!

Megalodon2.0
08-08-2014, 07:42 PM
Yes, we were, and not all of us thought it was a crock. There are still customers left here who believe it was the right decision then, and by all indications, still a better plan than any attempted since.

Sadly, it increasingly appears that Roth was correct: The window to turn LW's fortunes around closed with CORE's cancelation, and the rest will just turn out to be an extended swan song.

Pretty much spot on.

Oedo 808
08-08-2014, 09:07 PM
Pretty much spot on.

If you leave out the bit about it looking like a better plan then, yeah, Core could have been anything and people would have marvelled at the emperor's new clothes.

Surrealist.
08-08-2014, 10:46 PM
Well there is a difference between an "ideal" plan and a "best workable" plan. And that is something we all have to balance in our lives to get anything done. So I think if we give them that and apply a little logic to it, you can see that are doing the best they can with a plan that is really a decade or more off. I don't think there is any argument about what is the ideal plan. But a workable plan is something less than that, and the best people to sort that is the dev team and NT management.

cresshead
08-08-2014, 10:56 PM
just watched the zbrush 4.7 reveal...

was rather cool to see zbrush join lightwave as a "2 app solution" with: model in one app then send over to render in another app with a live link!

grabbed the video...audio is not great as i left my mic on opps!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOYAmIweAzQ

lightscape
08-08-2014, 11:32 PM
just watched the zbrush 4.7 reveal...

was rather cool to see zbrush join lightwave as a "2 app solution" with: model in one app then send over to render in another app with a live link!
just sat here smiling!

That's a unique perspective. It does seem like lightwave workflow in that sense. But that's acceptable if an artist is doing only stills or concept work.
For other artists doing "moving pictures" like mograph, ca, etc, they need vertex, polyon, deforming capabilities in the animatiion environment.
Personally I don't need a new architecture that will try to compete with houdini, xsi, maya. I just need unified environment like modo(with less clickyness and stability issues) even with destructive tools its still better than split app. That would be enough for lightwave 12,13,14.

Julez4001
08-09-2014, 12:02 AM
Where did you see the 4.7 reveal?

Surrealist.
08-09-2014, 01:57 AM
Zbrush already has rendering and animation natively. This is more like exporting a scene to a stand alone renderer. Not at all anything like a LightWave workflow, with the exception of course that it may automatically update which would be cool. But not really the same thing.

vncnt
08-09-2014, 03:56 AM
For other artists doing "moving pictures" like mograph, ca, etc, they need vertex, polyon, deforming capabilities in the animatiion environment.

This is one very good reason to add these requirements to the Layout environment. In a modern way (whatever that may be).

Other modeling activities do not need this so there is no need to rewrite entire applications or engines.
Keep the 2-app approach and spend resources on areas that need change urgently.

Speed? Buy a faster computer. Well okay: high count poly meshes.

Functionality? If you want to attract new users and keep current users: dream with them.

Which functions?
Ptex support.
Pose/animation organization, manipulation, storage and recycling (inspiration: Legato).
Fluids and smoke.
Additional viewports on a second display.

jwiede
08-09-2014, 04:37 AM
Well there is a difference between an "ideal" plan and a "best workable" plan. And that is something we all have to balance in our lives to get anything done. So I think if we give them that and apply a little logic to it, you can see that are doing the best they can with a plan that is really a decade or more off.

When you say 10 calendar years, how many developer/years of effort does that comprise? Are you expecting each developer to only contribute some fraction like 10% of a developer/year of effort to that work per calendar year? How many developers are contributing effort each calendar year, total?

djwaterman
08-09-2014, 05:29 AM
The new Zbrush features seem to turn it into an amazing hard surface poly to sub-D modeler. Zbrush was one of those apps I bought into and then did nothing with, but I have to really get back with the program now I think.

Julez4001
08-09-2014, 07:14 AM
I think its a wasted effort for Newtek to unify the application unless the re-write of the architecture allows it to expand new features (fluids, smoke, new particle system, etc).
If they can do all that with the current setup, then I agree .. .focus that energy and resources to those capabilities.

Lightwave was right about subdivision when the industry was "nurbs are the future", fprime/vpr before everyone else, meshes living outside the scene file, etc..etc.

Emmanuel
08-09-2014, 08:19 AM
Nope, if they do not unify, they waste their ressources. Example: the particle system hasnt seen much love recently. In Cinema4D You can use all the deformers such as bend, twist etc to "model" the particles and their motion paths. If You would add that functionality into Layout you would essentially copy modeler. The best idea would be to unfy modeler and layout so You can use all the modeling tools for animation.

jasonwestmas
08-09-2014, 08:45 AM
The idea of a hub is a good one but in lightwave's case it becomes a nuisance for various workflow and stability reasons.

The main reason I think to unify the apps. is to put vertex mapping tools inside of layout, Vmap advantages go all accross the board no matter if you are an animator, or just rendering a still. The second biggest reason is so that animators have more interactive tools right beside the rest of their animation tools that are already in layout. And of course the camera/modeling capabilities that come along with that.

Surrealist.
08-09-2014, 09:47 AM
I think integration is a foregone conclusion.

The current situation however probably will mean "integrated" functionality or tools written into current LightWave.

The problem with integration first is that it poses the question, once you start with the blank canvas, then what? And I think that road as been traveled and it was decided it was too long of a road to get a fully functioning app. So I have no idea how they are going to pull off the current plan. But it does not take a spreadsheet and a pencil to figure it is a long hall.

octopus2000
08-09-2014, 10:25 AM
what if nt add modeling tools inside layout itself, and eventually just drop modeler. maybe they could add tools that supports ngons. add 3d painting tools, particles and liquids, and they could also add full support for max, maya, houdini, cinema4d or modo object files along with the maps intact. this could be a winning strategy. well it's one man's opinion.

jasonwestmas
08-09-2014, 10:36 AM
The problem with integration first is that it poses the question, once you start with the blank canvas, then what? And I think that road as been traveled and it was decided it was too long of a road to get a fully functioning app. So I have no idea how they are going to pull off the current plan. But it does not take a spreadsheet and a pencil to figure it is a long hall.

The interesting thing today is that almost anything is possible technologically, it's more of a matter of selling the fastest workflow and the highest performing software when dealing with heavy scenes. Obviously experienced CG people are looking for both. Many of us want to be creatively flexible when we are in production. We can't possibly foresee every single bump or visual problem before hand (Pre-Production), so we desire the tools that allow us to make changes quickly and with fewer breakages during our process. For example if we need to make changes to geometry after the model is rigged, we have no desire to throw out all the weight-maps just so we can do that, we desire tools that allow us to preserve or reproject our previous work onto our modifications of any kind. Another example is having the capability to stack our effects on top of each other just like someone would layer pixels and blending modes in photoshop, add to that layering system a graph (nodes or what have you) and you have the best of both worlds.

As far as how big of a project should a company forego. Well that is definitely something to consider very early on. Obviously NT couldn't handle something that huge, whatever they were attempting. I think smaller companies should start with more specialized software and then slowly add to that in a modular fashion, it only makes sense.

Pixologic is the prime example that I think of when it comes to specialized software because they are focusing on 1001 ways to sculpt and model and NOW they are bringing box modeling to the table and seeing how that can be integrated to a sculpting workflow that is already in place. Yes they have some animation cache and painting capabilities but that part of Zbrush is light years behind the modeling and sculpting capabilities. Does this lack of animation and texture painting capabilities make owning a copy of zbrush any less desireable, maybe a little but as a modeling package, everybody I know wants to use it! I believe that is because a small company chose to be specialized first, not try to "rule them all."

When LWG announced and showed off chronosculpt, which is a very specialized package (kinda small in functionality atm) immediately I thought, yes, this is a very smart move for a company that desperately needs some attention in the market.

So imo, that is what you should do with a blank canvas. Preserving too much of the old and trying to cover every discipline with your software is self-defeating, especially now days.

jasonwestmas
08-09-2014, 10:49 AM
what if nt add modeling tools inside layout itself, and eventually just drop modeler. maybe they could add tools that supports ngons. add 3d painting tools, particles and liquids, and they could also add full support for max, maya, houdini, cinema4d or modo object files along with the maps intact. this could be a winning strategy. well it's one man's opinion.


Just because I enjoy talking about this kind of thing for whatever reason:

I could be wrong but I think Lightwave users tend to be dualists. Meaning they will use modo or zbrush or 3dcoat along with lightwave but if they do I doubt many of them would be using maya and max also for a third wheel (for animation or whatever). Maybe someone should start a poll.

I know there are some maya, max and houdini users out there who still use lightwave for personal stuff but I doubt there are many of those anymore. Not a fact, just an assumption.

A large studio is something different though. I've been places where you will have maya, max, zbrush, modo, 3dcoat all in the same building. Not sure how rare that is.

Surrealist.
08-09-2014, 11:05 AM
The interesting thing today is that almost anything is possible technologically, it's more of a matter of selling the fastest workflow and the highest performing software when dealing with heavy scenes. Obviously experienced CG people are looking for both. Many of us want to be creatively flexible when we are in production. We can't possibly foresee every single bump or visual problem before hand (Pre-Production), so we desire the tools that allow us to make changes quickly and with fewer breakages during our process. For example if we need to make changes to geometry after the model is rigged, we have no desire to throw out all the weight-maps just so we can do that, we desire tools that allow us to preserve or reproject our previous work onto our modifications of any kind. Another example is having the capability to stack our effects on top of each other just like someone would layer pixels and blending modes in photoshop, add to that layering system a graph (nodes or what have you) and you have the best of both worlds.

As far as how big of a project should a company forego. Well that is definitely something to consider very early on. Obviously NT couldn't handle something that huge, whatever they were attempting. I think smaller companies should start with more specialized software and then slowly add to that in a modular fashion, it only makes sense.

Pixologic is the prime example that I think of when it comes to specialized software because they are focusing on 1001 ways to sculpt and model and NOW they are bringing box modeling to the table and seeing how that can be integrated to a sculpting workflow that is already in place. Yes they have some animation cache and painting capabilities but that part of Zbrush is light years behind the modeling and sculpting capabilities. Does this lack of animation and texture painting capabilities make owning a copy of zbrush any less desireable, maybe a little but as a modeling package, everybody I know wants to use it! I believe that is because a small company chose to be specialized first, not try to "rule them all."

When LWG announced and showed off chronosculpt, which is a very specialized package (kinda small in functionality atm) immediately I thought, yes, this is a very smart move for a company that desperately needs some attention in the market.

So imo, that is what you should do with a blank canvas. Preserving too much of the old and trying to cover every discipline with your software is self-defeating, especially now days.



Yeah, that is a very well-written assessment of the situation I think.

My view is based not on what I'd like to see happen, but rather, what I think likely will, given the fact that LightWave is already a "rules them all" application for the people that use it that way. (listen to some of the claims on this site and even some of Rob's comments) This is how it is being used by a lot of the user base and how it is being promoted - as well as an app that fits into pipelines.

The situation is such that you have an app that already has an established user base and workflow.

I don't do the books over at NewTek so I have no idea of the numbers. But apparently someone does, I would presume. And either they are real bad at math or they have a reason not to simply kill off LightWave entirely - as has recently happened with XSI - in order to focus funds in another area they think they can get more return from. Such as Building CS into a gradually more fully functioning app or whatever.

Therefore I predict this will not happen, and that rather, you will continue to see improvements to the app that is bringing in the cash. And the current situation dictates that you will always have to be able to model, animate, do dynamics, render, et all in LightWave. And that each release will focus on improvements to different aspects of this. And it is presumed from what has been stated, that all the while they have been infusing the core tech into LightWave and eventually reach a point where integration would be possible. But regardless of what happens, LightWave will continue to be used as an all purpose app. It seems if dropping any aspect of this is simply something that can not be tolerated for any length of time.

LightWave will not replace any of the more higher end solutions. But like Blender and Modo, presents and option. And I think this is what they plan to build on, it seems.

jasonwestmas
08-09-2014, 12:08 PM
Yeah, that is a very well-written assessment of the situation I think.

My view is based not on what I'd like to see happen, but rather, what I think likely will, given the fact that LightWave is already a "rules them all" application for the people that use it that way. (listen to some of the claims on this site and even some of Rob's comments) This is how it is being used by a lot of the user base and how it is being promoted - as well as an app that fits into pipelines.

The situation is such that you have an app that already has an established user base and workflow.

I don't do the books over at NewTek so I have no idea of the numbers. But apparently someone does, I would presume. And either they are real bad at math or they have a reason not to simply kill off LightWave entirely - as has recently happened with XSI - in order to focus funds in another area they think they can get more return from. Such as Building CS into a gradually more fully functioning app or whatever.

Therefore I predict this will not happen, and that rather, you will continue to see improvements to the app that is bringing in the cash. And the current situation dictates that you will always have to be able to model, animate, do dynamics, render, et all in LightWave. And that each release will focus on improvements to different aspects of this. And it is presumed from what has been stated, that all the while they have been infusing the core tech into LightWave and eventually reach a point where integration would be possible. But regardless of what happens, LightWave will continue to be used as an all purpose app. It seems if dropping any aspect of this is simply something that can not be tolerated for any length of time.

LightWave will not replace any of the more higher end solutions. But like Blender and Modo, presents and option. And I think this is what they plan to build on, it seems.

Certainly, Lightwave will continue to be developed, I have no doubts about that. At the same time however the comment about the "blank slate" situation is definitely something Newtek is interested in, otheriwse I don't think they would be developing something like Chronosculpt. I see it more like they have a test bed of tools and the the heavier data tools will be moved into a new, less complex environment that can still be sold(Chronosculpt or something else) and Lightwave will continue to be sold for quick turnaround projects that are smaller in scope. This way new developments can still be made while Lightwave classic is cleaned up and hopefully modernized to handle the bigger projects. The goal being to have a product that does things that no other product on the market does AND maintain the familiar environment that current users enjoy while they rip out the ugly inflexible stuff.

Surrealist.
08-09-2014, 01:29 PM
Yeah, that is pretty much how I see it.

I was relating clean slate to LightWave, and specifically the statements that starting LW over from a clean slate is a workable solution which I don't think it is.

I love the idea of them taking something like CS and creating a new app that grows into something kinda like Zbrush did over time and even eventually incorporates more features. I also thought it was a brilliant way to get something out there with new tech and generate income. As I understand it, the plan is as you say to infuse more and more of this into LW classic. That is pretty much how I see it.

But I also do see them making some compromises that are going to confuse and even anger some people along the way such as a camera in Modeler or something like that. And I think some people will complain, and others will be delighted. But at the end of the day it will be doing what they can to take things from the integrated workflow and infuse these one way or another into LightWave. And I don't think it should be viewed as them not understanding or getting the bigger picture of a unified solution. I think it is just a matter of balance.

In a nutshell I think LW3DG gets it. They are trying to balance a very difficult task of the long range goals they know have to happen with shorter range features that also have to happen. And I am fairly convinced that an all out rewrite is a long ways off and completely impractical to consider as done even in the next few releases.

octopus2000
08-09-2014, 03:28 PM
if nt made companion apps like nevronmotion or chronosculpt, then they might as well make another companion app for modeling with 3d paint to go along with it. this will allow nt to keep lightwave classic, but allow others to have another option at modeling without relearning a whole new 3d app because it's still lightwave.

Surrealist.
08-09-2014, 11:36 PM
Well these are all interesting points, because, as Jason pointed out, he strength in the idea of starting with an app that has a focus like modeling and sculpting and building on that. Had core started out as a code base into which they had the immediate plan to build a modeling solution, fist, separate from LW, and then with that code base in place, and with a viable modeling app that could have been be finished and sold along side LW, they could have then started to build on it and it could have matured over time to replace LightWave. The main difference here, from the way they attempted core would be to set a realistic set of goals. Where as core attempted to do the entire thing all in one shot.

Interesting about CS. I know, a lot of people have speculated. And I don't know what the possibilities are with the code base there. But I like the idea of building on something that is already completely innovative in approach.

Blender for instance has an add on called anim all which takes advantages of a lot of the built in api in Blender for animating pretty much anything and it is pretty cool.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlJ71XChDuY

So I do think it would be a viable option to build up CS along side LW rather than trying to infuse it into LW Classic. It is an approach that has been successful with Modo. Why not repeat?

jwiede
08-10-2014, 03:43 AM
Had core started out as a code base into which they had the immediate plan to build a modeling solution, fist, separate from LW, and then with that code base in place, and with a viable modeling app that could have been be finished and sold along side LW, they could have then started to build on it and it could have matured over time to replace LightWave.

How soon people forget. That WAS the plan for CORE, initially it was focused primarily on modeling. The infrastructure was capable of more, but the tools, etc. present were all modeling-focused. About the only semi-exception was Bullet, and even it was (similar to Steve Hurley's Advanced Placement) focused initially on modeling-use scenarios. Go fire up one of the last CORE releases if you don't believe me.

Yeesh, talk about coming full circle.

Surrealist.
08-10-2014, 05:03 AM
That is rewriting history a bit. And you know it. So I think we'll leave it at that. Everyone here has a memory as to what happened so there is no reason to dredge it all up again.

jasonwestmas
08-10-2014, 08:58 AM
How soon people forget. That WAS the plan for CORE, initially it was focused primarily on modeling. The infrastructure was capable of more, but the tools, etc. present were all modeling-focused. About the only semi-exception was Bullet, and even it was (similar to Steve Hurley's Advanced Placement) focused initially on modeling-use scenarios. Go fire up one of the last CORE releases if you don't believe me.

Yeesh, talk about coming full circle.

yar, obviously trying to replace Lightwave instead of think of new ideas that sell within a reasonable timeframe was not a good idea.

jeric_synergy
08-10-2014, 12:02 PM
A lot of people talk about how "the architecture" is a big issue with bringing LW into the 21st Century.

Could someone please illuminate how that works? What aspects of the current architecture are road blocks?

Non-programmer that I am, I'm always flabbergasted when knowledgeable folk tell me "that info cannot be accessed through the current API". Esp. after decades of hearing the chorus of 'expose EVERYthing!' repeatedly.

RebelHill
08-10-2014, 12:13 PM
So... you've got a house... The kitchen is built right next to the dining room but with a wall between that has no doorway. As such, when you want to take food or dishes from one to the other, you wind up having to go down a flight of stairs, through the basement, up another flight, down a hallway, and finally, into the room you wanted to be in.

That's architecture (BAD architecture).

LW just has too many walls with not enough doors, and there are whole rooms and passageways that were never even built to begin with.

jeric_synergy
08-10-2014, 12:29 PM
But, it's all just data, how is it sequestered from the different parts of the program?

Is this a thing where the language used (C++? C?) purposefully localizes data to specific subroutines (to minimize undesirable interactions), and there's very little/restricted data interplay unless the programmers say "make this variable globally accessible"?

OnlineRender
08-10-2014, 12:46 PM
That's architecture (BAD architecture).



no my friend this is bad architecture .... LW just getting old :D
http://www.thepoke.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/tumblr_mxorjppgSF1rrqskho1_500.jpg

RebelHill
08-10-2014, 12:51 PM
But, it's all just data

Data isnt this magical airy fairy thing... it has to have meaning, it has to have structure to properly resolve into "new" data, you cant just stuff it anywhere you like, any which way you like.

jeric_synergy
08-10-2014, 12:57 PM
So, even though the various data exists within the program, it's not labeled in a useful way for plugin writers to access?

RebelHill
08-10-2014, 12:59 PM
In some cases its not accessible (walled off) in other cases, it doesnt even exist (the "room" just isnt in the building).

jeric_synergy
08-10-2014, 01:07 PM
So, a new architecture will have freeflowing hallways, labeled doorways, neat bookshelves and rooms won't get dropped off the side of the building once the current use is completed?

or put another way: global data accessibility, referencing structures, expandable storage, and data retention?

octopus2000
08-10-2014, 04:20 PM
nt should seriously consider making a companion app for modeling with new clean code that allows ngons and 3d painting. and build up from that. maybe reactivate CORE and call it chrono modeler.

robertoortiz
08-10-2014, 07:00 PM
nt should seriously consider making a companion app for modeling with new clean code that allows ngons and 3d painting. and build up from that. maybe reactivate CORE and call it chrono modeler.

Don't stop there. I create a new app over chrono sculpt and simply call it chronus

- - - Updated - - -


nt should seriously consider making a companion app for modeling with new clean code that allows ngons and 3d painting. and build up from that. maybe reactivate CORE and call it chrono modeler.

Don't stop there. I create a new app over chrono sculpt and simply call it chronus

lightscape
08-10-2014, 08:45 PM
How come every forum is asking for a complete rewrite of the core? Its the same thinking from other Cinema4d users wanting a core rewrite after the new release of R15 people are saying nice features but have you rewritten the architecture.
Its not that simple and the ROI is not always guaranteed with a niche market like 3d content creation. It could even EOL software like xsi.

jeric_synergy
08-10-2014, 08:45 PM
nt should seriously consider making a companion app for modeling with new clean code that allows ngons .....
Uhhhhh, we got ngons. You must be talking n-subds. And all that's waiting for is proper CC implementation.

m.d.
08-10-2014, 08:48 PM
So, a new architecture will have freeflowing hallways, labeled doorways, neat bookshelves and rooms won't get dropped off the side of the building once the current use is completed?

or put another way: global data accessibility, referencing structures, expandable storage, and data retention?

that was the idea behind the CORE "crock"

Central Object Referencing Engine

jeric_synergy
08-10-2014, 11:04 PM
that was the idea behind the CORE "crock"
Central Object Referencing Engine
No one has ever said, myself included, that new architecture wasn't needed. But the CORE 'approach', to dignify that process, was not the right one.

m.d.
08-11-2014, 01:26 AM
CORE is old news and not worth getting into, but I believe it was the right idea architecture wise.

I think they just bit off more then they could chew and couldn't both incrementally modernize LW while concurrently developing a next gen app...in the end it was likely as much a business decision as anything else.

Not many companies have the software engineering budget to do that other then Adobe an Autodesk

Emmanuel
08-11-2014, 02:50 AM
The main problem today is getting more LW artists, plain and simple. Money and demand is the source of all. Whenever I demonstrate different programs to my students, LW gets ahhh and ohhh for its simplicity in modeling, but people dont understand the modeler/layout distinction. This "you have an uncluttered interface" thing doesnt apply anymore. Look how cluttered modeler can become with all the plugins and tools, and yet You can not do a simple animated boolean or twist. Sure, two monitors take away a lot if the edge this separation is. But modo, maya, Cinema do that with a click to change the current layout. Its a not-problem, and the disadvantages far outweigh the advantages. If LW doesnt replace the big guns, and obviously is targetted at freelancers and smaller shops, its even more illogical to have two modules, as no freelancer or small shop I know of specialises in modeling or texturing or animation. That target audience is made of generalists, jacks of all trades. Who does benefit from non-unification at all ?

Underdog
08-11-2014, 03:16 AM
Always excited about the next step for LW!

erikals
08-11-2014, 05:54 AM
shouldn't we get some info on LightWave streaming at Siggraph soon... ?

only a "few" hours left...

http://www.smileycodes.info/emo/kaskus1/bolakbalik.gif

Ernest
08-11-2014, 06:02 AM
there's very little/restricted data interplay unless the programmers say "make this variable globally accessible"?
Yes, but not quite. Programmers should never, ever say "make this variable globally accessible!"
I'm exaggerating, of course. It's good practice to set a few boolean flags that are needed throughout the program as globally accessible, but actual data should never be globally accessible. If it is, you can guarantee that you will corrupt in one function what you did in another, and it will take you ages to find out what is crashing your program, since every function in the program could have written the corruption.

You want your data to be compartmentalized so that each variable can only be read and modified by one specific module. What that module is depends on the language. It could be a function or an object. If any other module needs to read or write to that data, they must send its module a request so that it will do it itself. That module has to be flexible enough to be able to handle requests from every other possible module (which may be asking for totally different types of data, if your module was not specific enough) without getting bogged down by a million IFs at every turn.

In C++, the objects already have a built in system to send each other messages and requests, while in C it has to be done manually but, of course, the message handling is up to you. So you have to program on this module a request for data from that one and program on that one a way to make sure you send the correct data and the API function in the SDK will probably use a data structure that uses dozens of those modules sending requests to each other to get created. And when you use the API function to modify that structure, all those dozens of modules will have to make sure to update their internal variables as needed.

OnlineRender
08-11-2014, 06:20 AM
preparing to rewrite an historical piece of code

http://ljdchost.com/NEOn8TE.gif

BokadCastle
08-11-2014, 08:31 PM
No one has ever said, myself included, that new architecture wasn't needed. But the CORE 'approach', to dignify that process, was not the right one.
I'm interested...what would have been the right approach - in your opinion.

Dexter2999
08-11-2014, 10:24 PM
I'm interested...what would have been the right approach - in your opinion.

I would have been happy if they had stuck with the modeling aspect of CORE and introduced it as a replacement to Modeler. But they didn't. They started getting distracted by other cool features. IMO Bullet, instancing, Python, all very wonderful goals, weren't "NOW" features needed by CORE.

I would have been happy had it been released as CORE and Layout. Not as they planned a three package deal. It was going the wrong direction market wise. How do you explain, "I know you wanted a single application not a dual one, but we have this triple app. package that is going to work even better for you." ?

jeric_synergy
08-11-2014, 10:50 PM
Since you ask: (I'm responding to Bokad's question folks)

One of the issues various folks had was that, as presented, CORE would have been a radical change in the LW UI.

While a unified app is going to have some changes for sure, these were extensive and comprehensive. Basically, it wouldn't be anything like lightwave's current appearance or UI.

IN MY OPINION, this was putting the cart before horse. Everybody keeps talking about the architecture, aka data structures, and to me, that was what should have been addressed first. In essence, this would be an almost invisible change to users. All they'd know is, "hey, it's crashing less, and it's faster, and I can build bigger scenes! Awesome!"

Get the plumbing nailed down (ok, mixed metaphor), get the plumbing WORKING, and then introduce the potential that a unified app allows. This would require maintaining Modeler for a while, but eventually it would wither away to just a mode.

Also, I'm told that the UI API (Panels API??) is very restrictive. Rather than trying to design and debug an entirely new interface paradigm from zero, I would have had the coders REPLICATE the existing (remember, this was what, four? years ago) interface, the thing that user look at for extremely long periods of time and are intimately familiar and happy with (for the most part) in the new (QT?) API.

Basically, I advocated for an incremental approach. It's hard enough to get the plumbing right without worrying about the UI. Once everything was actually working, the possibilities of the new data structures could be exploited.

To me, the interface IS the program. CORE didn't seem to be Lightwave, at all. And as such, the management was abandoning the very essence of what made LW as successful as it was in its niche: fast turn-around television level production.

The architecture needed to be revamped-- no question. Probably still does. But abandoning all the interaction that satisfied users were familiar with? Not a good idea.

The management team at the time bit off 'wayyyyyy more than they could chew. I feel a bit of sympathy there. And, they were not animators: TMK, and I could be totally wrong here, my impression is they were business people and coders. When RP came on board, one of the first things I , as a customer, perceived him do was beef up the interoperability of LW with other programs. Now, I personally have zero use for that, but doing so made LW a small player again in pipelines, and leveraged the virtues of LW against some big competition. I think that bought them several years right there. I think that was a very clever move.

RP has seen how BIG projects get done, AND he's a knowledgeable animator himself. I think that's what LW needs at this point.

Now, about that documentation.....

3D Kiwi
08-11-2014, 10:51 PM
All they had to do was keep quiet about it. Keep plugging away and maybe in the next few years they may have had something.

jeric_synergy
08-11-2014, 11:02 PM
And they're keeping quiet now. Lesson learned, eh?

(Everybody, please keep sending those bug reports in, with good examples. A reputation of reliability would be very nice...)

m.d.
08-11-2014, 11:27 PM
Since you ask: (I'm responding to Bokad's question folks)

One of the issues various folks had was that, as presented, CORE would have been a radical change in the LW UI.

While a unified app is going to have some changes for sure, these were extensive and comprehensive. Basically, it wouldn't be anything like lightwave's current appearance or UI.

IN MY OPINION, this was putting the cart before horse. Everybody keeps talking about the architecture, aka data structures, and to me, that was what should have been addressed first. In essence, this would be an almost invisible change to users. All they'd know is, "hey, it's crashing less, and it's faster, and I can build bigger scenes! Awesome!"

Get the plumbing nailed down (ok, mixed metaphor), get the plumbing WORKING, and then introduce the potential that a unified app allows. This would require maintaining Modeler for a while, but eventually it would wither away to just a mode.

Also, I'm told that the UI API (Panels API??) is very restrictive. Rather than trying to design and debug an entirely new interface paradigm from zero, I would have had the coders REPLICATE the existing (remember, this was what, four? years ago) interface, the thing that user look at for extremely long periods of time and are intimately familiar and happy with (for the most part) in the new (QT?) API.

Basically, I advocated for an incremental approach. It's hard enough to get the plumbing right without worrying about the UI. Once everything was actually working, the possibilities of the new data structures could be exploited.

To me, the interface IS the program. CORE didn't seem to be Lightwave, at all. And as such, the management was abandoning the very essence of what made LW as successful as it was in its niche: fast turn-around television level production.

The architecture needed to be revamped-- no question. Probably still does. But abandoning all the interaction that satisfied users were familiar with? Not a good idea.

The management team at the time bit off 'wayyyyyy more than they could chew. I feel a bit of sympathy there. And, they were not animators: TMK, and I could be totally wrong here, my impression is they were business people and coders. When RP came on board, one of the first things I , as a customer, perceived him do was beef up the interoperability of LW with other programs. Now, I personally have zero use for that, but doing so made LW a small player again in pipelines, and leveraged the virtues of LW against some big competition. I think that bought them several years right there. I think that was a very clever move.

RP has seen how BIG projects get done, AND he's a knowledgeable animator himself. I think that's what LW needs at this point.

Now, about that documentation.....

I see where you are coming from....and agree with most of what you say.

Personally having used all the major 3d packages on productions (except c4d and softimage) I find LW interface to be not the greatest, but I know it.
Customization is the only way to go to address lovers or haters of the UI, and it looks as if they are going to address that somewhat with QT.

Lewis
08-11-2014, 11:33 PM
, as presented, CORE would have been a radical change in the LW UI.

While a unified app is going to have some changes for sure, these were extensive and comprehensive. Basically, it wouldn't be anything like lightwave's current appearance or UI.

.......To me, the interface IS the program. CORE didn't seem to be Lightwave, at all.

Really ? So UI was the problem ?

Well i somehow don't remember it that way as you describe so i just made fresh screengrabs and still thinking what are you remembering good after-all ?

- It has Quad view just like modeler (plus fact you can adjust any window size or add more than 4 windows if you wish or display nodes or schematic or web browser in any window)
- It has TOP Row Tabs same as LWM
- It has Side panel buttons - same as LWM (plus fact you can choose to show Text only, buttons only, shortcuts and all three mixed together),
- It has Stats panel
- it has same window options for wire, shade, shade+wire and TOP/Front/Back, Persp.... windows
- it has same top right corner window navigation keys
- it has HUDisplay (for polys/points/selections... LWM lacks)
- It has attributes panel (numeric in modeler),
- It has layers panel (with more options than what modeler one has).
- It has Action center modes on bottom (all 4 here as icons but you can have them as text also - as a matter of fact you can make/change any button icon as you like)
- It has snapping buttons (point, poly, edge (modeler lacks that very much and would need snapping)
- It has workplanes (modeler needs it desperately)
- It has gizmos for all tools but you can hide them and work free flow (like Beveling/extruding with mouse movements like in modeler if for some reason you wish not use gizmos :))
- It has dock-able GUI panels
- It has switchable GUI themes (i included greyish/blue LWVX theme Matt made back then which i like the most but there was XSI theme, LW 5.6 theme, many more themes...)
- It has Context sensitive shortcut keys and keys working withing the tools itself and not just for starting the tools
- It has Drag&drop for assigning materials (or just clicking/picking polys like in LWM)
- It has same LWM Units system/grid
- It can work same as LWM when nothing selected = all selected and on top of that it's and USER option so it's best for LWavers and other possible newcomers who can switch it off if they are used to other mode in their software)
- It has completely user adjustable navigation and selections so it's not hardcoded like LWM (but can be set to work exactly the same or even better since you can click to empty space to drop selection like in modo/Maya/Max or you can use LW one to not loose selection untill you shortcut or hit on GUI...).
- ............... and many many more LW like features/MO

So i do wonder are you really tested it then or you just are imagined things or heard it was like that somwhere but not really tried to test properly :)?
Then what do you think was the GUI problem ? I don't think so, it was somethign completely different than GUI 'coz GUI was changed/shaped as users wanted/requested in few releases and at this stage it was mimicking 95% of LWM GUI and had many more features Layout/LWM lacks to this very own day 4+ years later.

cheers

jeric_synergy
08-11-2014, 11:38 PM
I love UI customizability, BUT! imo unless it can be implemented rather painlessly/quickly, I'd not invest a lot of coding effort into it.

Reason: I have my doubts as to how much people use that particular feature.

I could be very guilty of projection here but, while I've used the LW/LWM customizability features (rudimentary as they are, the editors are full of obvious LHF) a fair amount, I haven't used the Photoshop customizability features AT ALL (unless you count making hotkeys for Actions 'customizing'). That is: I haven't edited one menu/panel in PShop.

Again, projection is a danger for UI designers (I wish I could get the reins of some UI projects!)-- maybe everybody else in the world is customizing the beejeezus out of PShop. Need some numbers.

Hotkeys and menus are quite enough for moi, but if it were EASY to add panel re-configuration, well, I certainly wouldn't turn it down. But if I were the project manager, I'd ask "how long is this going to take to code?". (And again, the LW editors are very lame-- easy pickin's there for improvement.)

Emmanuel
08-12-2014, 01:39 AM
Hey, Lewis, thanks fir the photos, looks nice, clean usable. Way to go, NT :D

octopus2000
08-12-2014, 06:08 AM
Really ? So UI was the problem ?

Well i somehow don't remember it that way as you describe so i just made fresh screengrabs and still thinking what are you remembering good after-all ?

- It has Quad view just like modeler (plus fact you can adjust any window size or add more than 4 windows if you wish or display nodes or schematic or web browser in any window)
- It has TOP Row Tabs same as LWM
- It has Side panel buttons - same as LWM (plus fact you can choose to show Text only, buttons only, shortcuts and all three mixed together),
- It has Stats panel
- it has same window options for wire, shade, shade+wire and TOP/Front/Back, Persp.... windows
- it has same top right corner window navigation keys
- it has HUDisplay (for polys/points/selections... LWM lacks)
- It has attributes panel (numeric in modeler),
- It has layers panel (with more options than what modeler one has).
- It has Action center modes on bottom (all 4 here as icons but you can have them as text also - as a matter of fact you can make/change any button icon as you like)
- It has snapping buttons (point, poly, edge (modeler lacks that very much and would need snapping)
- It has workplanes (modeler needs it desperately)
- It has gizmos for all tools but you can hide them and work free flow (like Beveling/extruding with mouse movements like in modeler if for some reason you wish not use gizmos :))
- It has dock-able GUI panels
- It has switchable GUI themes (i included greyish/blue LWVX theme Matt made back then which i like the most but there was XSI theme, LW 5.6 theme, many more themes...)
- It has Context sensitive shortcut keys and keys working withing the tools itself and not just for starting the tools
- It has Drag&drop for assigning materials (or just clicking/picking polys like in LWM)
- It has same LWM Units system/grid
- It can work same as LWM when nothing selected = all selected and on top of that it's and USER option so it's best for LWavers and other possible newcomers who can switch it off if they are used to other mode in their software)
- It has completely user adjustable navigation and selections so it's not hardcoded like LWM (but can be set to work exactly the same or even better since you can click to empty space to drop selection like in modo/Maya/Max or you can use LW one to not loose selection untill you shortcut or hit on GUI...).
- ............... and many many more LW like features/MO

So i do wonder are you really tested it then or you just are imagined things or heard it was like that somwhere but not really tried to test properly :)?
Then what do you think was the GUI problem ? I don't think so, it was somethign completely different than GUI 'coz GUI was changed/shaped as users wanted/requested in few releases and at this stage it was mimicking 95% of LWM GUI and had many more features Layout/LWM lacks to this very own day 4+ years later.

cheers

WOW! lightwave CORE UI looks awesome. Why the hell did newtek drop this? it looked fine.

Hail
08-12-2014, 06:40 AM
Really ? So UI was the problem ?

Well i somehow don't remember it that way as you describe so i just made fresh screengrabs and still thinking what are you remembering good after-all ?

- It has Quad view just like modeler (plus fact you can adjust any window size or add more than 4 windows if you wish or display nodes or schematic or web browser in any window)
- It has TOP Row Tabs same as LWM
- It has Side panel buttons - same as LWM (plus fact you can choose to show Text only, buttons only, shortcuts and all three mixed together),
- It has Stats panel
- it has same window options for wire, shade, shade+wire and TOP/Front/Back, Persp.... windows
- it has same top right corner window navigation keys
- it has HUDisplay (for polys/points/selections... LWM lacks)
- It has attributes panel (numeric in modeler),
- It has layers panel (with more options than what modeler one has).
- It has Action center modes on bottom (all 4 here as icons but you can have them as text also - as a matter of fact you can make/change any button icon as you like)
- It has snapping buttons (point, poly, edge (modeler lacks that very much and would need snapping)
- It has workplanes (modeler needs it desperately)
- It has gizmos for all tools but you can hide them and work free flow (like Beveling/extruding with mouse movements like in modeler if for some reason you wish not use gizmos :))
- It has dock-able GUI panels
- It has switchable GUI themes (i included greyish/blue LWVX theme Matt made back then which i like the most but there was XSI theme, LW 5.6 theme, many more themes...)
- It has Context sensitive shortcut keys and keys working withing the tools itself and not just for starting the tools
- It has Drag&drop for assigning materials (or just clicking/picking polys like in LWM)
- It has same LWM Units system/grid
- It can work same as LWM when nothing selected = all selected and on top of that it's and USER option so it's best for LWavers and other possible newcomers who can switch it off if they are used to other mode in their software)
- It has completely user adjustable navigation and selections so it's not hardcoded like LWM (but can be set to work exactly the same or even better since you can click to empty space to drop selection like in modo/Maya/Max or you can use LW one to not loose selection untill you shortcut or hit on GUI...).
- ............... and many many more LW like features/MO

So i do wonder are you really tested it then or you just are imagined things or heard it was like that somwhere but not really tried to test properly :)?
Then what do you think was the GUI problem ? I don't think so, it was somethign completely different than GUI 'coz GUI was changed/shaped as users wanted/requested in few releases and at this stage it was mimicking 95% of LWM GUI and had many more features Layout/LWM lacks to this very own day 4+ years later.

cheers

Spot on!
Had been wondering why some old hats kept saying it wasn't "lightwavy enough"(and I heard that quiet a lot)
If it was as flexible as you listed above then EOL(ing) it was a terrible decision.:(

Lewis
08-12-2014, 06:59 AM
Spot on!
Had been wondering why some old hats kept saying it wasn't "lightwavy enough"(and I heard that quiet a lot)
If was as flexible as you listed above then EOL(ing) it was a terrible decision.:(

Sure, keyboards are fully customizable for selections, navigation (and yes you can use scroll button for zoom ;)) and many many more, and ahh it has sticky keys implementation in shortcuts.
check the keyboards shortcut screengrab

So like i said GUI was certainly NOT reasons why NT shut it down. So if some old-timers (I'm odltimer too ;)) say that was the reason then they just aren't know facts and they obviously didn't tried/gave it chance or tested it properly (I've spent year of thorough testing it so i know it pretty well).

I'm not entering debate about real reasons why they canceled it or was it right or wrong decision (it was their decisiion and i voiced my opinion about that 3 years ago at that loooong/epic thread but and i find-out first hand many more info about that since then so i know enough) but pretty sure GUI wa snot reason 'coz ditching it 'coz of GUI whcih is much more felxible and customizable than LW is to this very own date would be too silly ;). There was much more deep/important issues which lead to cancellation of it.

Cheers

prometheus
08-12-2014, 07:04 AM
WOW! lightwave CORE UI looks awesome. Why the hell did newtek drop this? it looked fine.

Itīs simple...I didnīt like it or approve of it:) (talk about ego hybris)

In fact I think to many lightwave users thought it was just to different, me included, the flexibility of it might have been great, and it even had a sculpt tool in there which we still donīt have in either modeler or layout to this day:( and it is UI out of topic.

but it just went to different in the look of it all, to unfamiliar and it becomes not very friendly to work with as you were used to, now they could have followed that track on the UI, but still remaining somewhat true to the old UI, and we can still have that I think, just start with flexible windows with rezising, docking and expanding and collapsing panels, the rest will be merely cosmetics on how you would want it to look.
UI of core had some poorly designed icons, and to roundish buttons all over the place, just to make an impression of being something else.

jwiede
08-12-2014, 07:14 AM
Its the same thinking from other Cinema4d users wanting a core rewrite after the new release of R15 people are saying nice features but have you rewritten the architecture..
Actually, MAXON just completed a huge major rewrite as of R14/R15. The first big roll-out was R12, the next biggie was at R14, and with the new renderer in R15 it was pretty much complete. It's quite obvious if you look at the SDK changes between 11.5->12 and 13->14, in particular. Among other big changes, they moved to an all-double-precision-based infrastructure.

Snosrap
08-12-2014, 07:22 AM
Core was crucified because the common keyboard shortcuts went from T, Y, H to W, E, R for Move, Rotate and Scale. I've never heard so many b*tch about how LW was going all Maya because of these three simple keyboard shortcuts.

jeric_synergy
08-12-2014, 08:26 AM
::eyeroll:: I was there, I was a beta tester, and that f*#r crashed every 30 seconds. :devil:

Screen grabs do not a UI make: it wasn't JUST the "maya-very-lite" aspect, it was navigation it was interaction it was EVERYTHING. The nouns of a screen grab and a checklist of features do not convey what the verbs of trying to USE that piece of junk was like.

Need I remind people that The Powers That Be killed CORE, not the nay-sayers, so obviously management also thought something was wrong.

That's one very attractive dead horse. We love to whale on it.
++++++++++++++++

The name of this thread is "Gearing up for LW12?" -- What I'm surprised to see is the LACK of enthusiasm for the features that were good in CORE that appeared in 11.n, like the selection highlighting in the "Axis-" tools. Nobody seems to have mentioned that the various goodies showcased by the newer tools in 11.n imply changes in the infrastructure that ALLOW those goodies to happen.

The same plumbing that is allowing pre-selection* highlighting and gizmos can be used in more tools as it gets more and more stable. THAT should have users jumping up and down and clapping their hands like 3 year olds.


*is it fair to call that 'pre-selection'?

Lewis
08-12-2014, 08:50 AM
..........That's one very attractive dead horse. We love to whale on it........


So you are pissed on at somethign you brought on and mentioned in this topic?

BTW also it's not pre-selecting since it's not selecting anything (IN LWM) 'coz we need to select polys to use them with new tools, it pre-higlights only for snaping/moving pivot for gizmos (liek transalte tool) but you can't add to selection while you are "IN" the tool so it's nowhere near/same as you could do in CORE or other packages which have true pre-higlighting (and adding to selection while in the mode) for points/polys/edges/items (which we don't have in LWM due split app nature and Layout has Items only but no ability to select polys so it's tricky problem in current LW)

Also Topic name is kinda pointles since there is no "gearing up" for LW12 this Siggraph (or this year probably) anyway ;).

devin
08-12-2014, 09:03 AM
The name of this thread is "Gearing up for LW12?" -- What I'm surprised to see is the LACK of enthusiasm for the features that were good in CORE that appeared in 11.n, like the selection highlighting in the "Axis-" tools. Nobody seems to have mentioned that the various goodies showcased by the newer tools in 11.n imply changes in the infrastructure that ALLOW those goodies to happen.

The same plumbing that is allowing pre-selection* highlighting and gizmos can be used in more tools as it gets more and more stable. THAT should have users jumping up and down and clapping their hands like 3 year olds.


I appreciate the under-the-hood changes and new tools but some still seem a bit poorly integrated. The Transform tool works erratically at best and locks up or hangs at various zoom levels. Some of the other modeling tools just aren't as intuitive as I've come to expect from LW. I was super excited for the inclusion of instancing but I also find controlling it all from within the panel very non-intuitive and confusing. Instances also don't seem to play well with dissolve. Oddly, this is somehow affected by the coordinate system that's selected. Bugs are a given with any software but these are pretty big ones that should be quickly addressed.

That being said, all of the additional tools and point releases are great and appreciated but I'm ready to see modern architecture and workflows incorporated. It's often necessary for us to think outside the box for the task at hand but I need some of the basic features to both work and work well with other features as well. Basic workflows should no longer be about patching and hacking solutions together constantly.

Not trying to bash LW or take away from what it's accomplished. Both my company and myself are at a crossroads. We need to feel reassured that there is still a bright future for LW or we have to make some tough decisions.

Hail
08-12-2014, 09:26 AM
Well, it appears many of the geasers here love the crippled and ancient nature of lw and I'm not sure why.
Core had the potential to offer what crippled lw has now and more.
One thing that irks me though is the double standards these same old hats who got Core killed employ. They are the same gray heads I find around on these boards whining about how non classy and archaic lw feels.
WTF did u expect? The horse has been long old and ailing, that was why NT opted to put it down and pursue Core but you said no!
So live with it but don't expect it to perform like the others without radical change/redesign.

Wickedpup
08-12-2014, 09:53 AM
::eyeroll:: I was there, I was a beta tester, and that f*#r crashed every 30 seconds. :devil:

Screen grabs do not a UI make: it wasn't JUST the "maya-very-lite" aspect, it was navigation it was interaction it was EVERYTHING. The nouns of a screen grab and a checklist of features do not convey what the verbs of trying to USE that piece of junk was like.

Need I remind people that The Powers That Be killed CORE, not the nay-sayers, so obviously management also thought something was wrong.

The name of this thread is "Gearing up for LW12?" -- What I'm surprised to see is the LACK of enthusiasm for the features that were good in CORE that appeared in 11.n, like the selection highlighting in the "Axis-" tools. Nobody seems to have mentioned that the various goodies showcased by the newer tools in 11.n imply changes in the infrastructure that ALLOW those goodies to happen.

The same plumbing that is allowing pre-selection* highlighting and gizmos can be used in more tools as it gets more and more stable. THAT should have users jumping up and down and clapping their hands like 3 year olds.

And MANAGEMENT have never been wrong? Or is it just when their opininion coinsides with yours? :tsktsk: IMO it was a money decision, nothing else.....

As far as infra-structure changes goes I seem to recall David Ikeda (in his deleted posts) commenting about how some of the new modelling tools had been implemented and how it had turned out to be a non-viable course. But that might be my memory playing tricks on me....

Hail
08-12-2014, 09:54 AM
WOW! lightwave CORE UI looks awesome. Why the hell did newtek drop this? it looked fine.

Because many of the geasers here didn't want to learn new software either because their brains were too old or they were simply feeling too lazy to pick up books again.:(

jeric_synergy
08-12-2014, 09:59 AM
If you're going to malign people like Splinegod, at least spell it correctly: "geezers".


So you are pissed on at somethign you brought on and mentioned in this topic?
Bokad asked me how I would've approached it. I told him.

Dexter2999
08-12-2014, 11:51 AM
Core was crucified because the common keyboard shortcuts went from T, Y, H to W, E, R for Move, Rotate and Scale. I've never heard so many b*tch about how LW was going all Maya because of these three simple keyboard shortcuts.

I was one of those people.

And it's been a while but as I remember it, the program when opened it for the first time wasn't designed for LW users.
It was a single interface but you could split into quads if you wanted to.
It had icons you could hide if you wanted to.
It had Maya style navigation and shortcuts you could change if you wanted to.

Here's my point. If your BETA group, (let's be honest ALPHA group) is to a large extent made up of people use LW, why are you making the software completely foreign by default? And if you are interested in getting user feedback why wouldn't you listen when they said "Hey, I don't like this. Can we at least make these things LW by default and have Maya settings as a preset?"

They didn't listen, or at least they gave no feedback signifying that they were taking this to heart. Which in turn creates MORE ire in the group with the complaints not being resolved.

Also, I saw the video's of people doing impressive things with CORE. Honestly, Lewis did the very best work of anyone, hands down.

However my experience never got past;

Make a box. Move. Crash
Make a box. Move. Crash
Make a box. Crash. &#$%@!

And again I point out two years behind schedule and no market plan that really made any sense.
Over budget.
Past original deadline.
No product that they deemed acceptable to present at a trade show as a concept, much less bring to market. It wasn't stable enough. It would have been an embarrassment. (And CORE members were very supportive about them NOT showing a buggy product at Trade shows during those years. Patient to a fault.)
And during this time, they weren't improving on Modeler or Layout, meaning there was a dropoff in upgrade sales income and marketing was stagnant in what they could present to a market that had already seen LW.

So they were at least a year into dwindling sales and the department most likely in a pressed situation financially.


Python, Instancing, Bullet, all could have been great options for CORE 2.0. But the initial release should have concentrated on stability, and that history stack. Every time they showed those things I was like, "That's great, but how does this relate to modeling?" And users continued to be impressed while the clock ticked away and still no marketable product was released.

I do not think you can blame the user base for the fail of CORE.

It was a very hopeful time that ended in frustration and disappointment for all involved. And I am honestly sick to death of hearing about it.

This is the last time I will ever talk about it again. And it would make me very happy if everyone else here could let it go as well.

hrgiger
08-12-2014, 12:39 PM
Move, Scale, and rotate should be the W,E,R...Its Qwerty and its a fairly accepted keyboard configuration.

I can't really say whether it would have been better to cancel CORE or keep it going, perhaps it was a great idea that was implemented poorly. What I do know is that it gave us things like a fast geometry engine, interactive modeling tools, animatable modeling operations, a more flexible layers panel, a modifier stack for a non-destructive workflow, a workplane, gizmos.... And we've gone from that to complete dead silence form LW3DG on when we might see improvements like these things with going back to developing older architecture. Maybe they're working on good things for LW12... But they've really dropped the ball on assuring users that supported CORE that they're still interested or actively pursuing the 'same destination' as Rob put it after they cancelled CORE.

jasonwestmas
08-12-2014, 01:57 PM
What's the saying? Out of sight out of mind. That only works if there is something better to replace what was lost.

Snosrap
08-12-2014, 02:45 PM
I was one of those people.

And it's been a while but as I remember it, the program when opened it for the first time wasn't designed for LW users.
It was a single interface but you could split into quads if you wanted to.
It had icons you could hide if you wanted to.
It had Maya style navigation and shortcuts you could change if you wanted to.

Yeah that wasn't the best decision by NT. Some of us were willing to overlook this, but for others it was a real stumbling block.



Here's my point. If your BETA group, (let's be honest ALPHA group) is to a large extent made up of people use LW, why are you making the software completely foreign by default? And if you are interested in getting user feedback why wouldn't you listen when they said "Hey, I don't like this. Can we at least make these things LW by default and have Maya settings as a preset?"


Agan that was questionable decision on NT's part.




However my experience never got past;

Make a box. Move. Crash
Make a box. Move. Crash
Make a box. Crash. &#$%@!

I had some of that - true, but as a whole I think it showed promise. The Bullet hardbody physics had amazing performance for an alpha release and OpenGL materials were out of this world. -- I made some glass that looked better in OpenGL than when rendered.

I do think it really was a buisness decision more than anything to drop Core. Somehow Jay Roth was able to convince Tim Jenison to do a complete re-write when Hastings, Ferguson and Peebler could'nt. Weird how things turn out.

Ztreem
08-12-2014, 03:39 PM
Well, it appears many of the geasers here love the crippled and ancient nature of lw and I'm not sure why.
Core had the potential to offer what crippled lw has now and more.
One thing that irks me though is the double standards these same old hats who got Core killed employ. They are the same gray heads I find around on these boards whining about how non classy and archaic lw feels.
WTF did u expect? The horse has been long old and ailing, that was why NT opted to put it down and pursue Core but you said no!
So live with it but don't expect it to perform like the others without radical change/redesign.

First of all no user killed core, NT did. The only problem I had with core and I think many with me, was not the idea or concept of core. It was that we could not utilize any of our knowledge about LightWave in it, it had no common thing with LW so it was like start from scratch. If I have to learn everything again, why would I learn a 3D app that is crashy has a slow and slugish interface and lack most of the tools I need. Better to learn any of the other 3D apps out there that is mature and proven to work. This doesn't mean that I like LW as it is now, I really need LW to get better at handling big meshes and many objects in a scene. I don't want to throw away my 15+ years of learning lightwave just like that.


Edit: Maybe I should update my avatar. xD

Megalodon2.0
08-12-2014, 03:42 PM
Really ? So UI was the problem ?

Well i somehow don't remember it that way as you describe so i just made fresh screengrabs and still thinking what are you remembering good after-all ?

<snipped>

So i do wonder are you really tested it then or you just are imagined things or heard it was like that somwhere but not really tried to test properly :)?
Then what do you think was the GUI problem ? I don't think so, it was somethign completely different than GUI 'coz GUI was changed/shaped as users wanted/requested in few releases and at this stage it was mimicking 95% of LWM GUI and had many more features Layout/LWM lacks to this very own day 4+ years later.

cheers

Well said Lewis. I remember your multitude of videos describing the problems - a HUGE help to the LW team. I thought CORE was a great step in the RIGHT direction. I had PLENTY of "altercations" with Larry (SplineGod) and still disagree with him - AND Kat. It seemed that they were too set in their ways and didn't want to even THINK about learning anything new in LW. LW was their security blanket and they didn't want ANYTHING about the UI to change and they stated their opinions over and over and over again. People tend to listen AND believe when respected members of the community denigrate the software - and people believe them whether they are right OR wrong.

It doesn't matter though. CORE is done and over with. It would have been interesting to see how it would have progressed up till now though. I seriously doubt whether LW has garnered a larger userbase since that time. In fact I would bet that it has declined. At least during CORE you had suers of other software actually LOOKING at LW again. That's not happening now - not even with SI retiring.


If you're going to malign people like Splinegod, at least spell it correctly: "geezers".

He's from Ghana West Africa. I think you can cut him some spelling slack.

jasonwestmas
08-12-2014, 03:53 PM
"I don't want to throw away my 15+ years of learning lightwave just like that."

That's a little bit silly, you'd only be throwing away VERY general 3D usage not wiping your brain clean. New tools are designed to be easier to learn anyway if done correctly. Besides, there were still some similarities but core was really just a pre-alpha stage.

tischbein3
08-12-2014, 04:04 PM
Move, Scale, and rotate should be the W,E,R...Its Qwerty and its a fairly accepted keyboard configuration.
From my experience it doesn't matter, if its WER GRS or TRH all of them have their advantage, and you use those operations often
enough that you can easily adapt to any convention in less than a week.

Ztreem
08-12-2014, 04:30 PM
"I don't want to throw away my 15+ years of learning lightwave just like that."

That's a little bit silly, you'd only be throwing away VERY general 3D usage not wiping your brain clean. New tools are designed to be easier to learn anyway if done correctly. Besides, there were still some similarities but core was really just a pre-alpha stage.

Ok, fine. but my point was that when I still have to start from scratch as it had minimal resemblance with lightwave even modo is more lightwave like. I rather learn Maya , Cinema or modo then starting with core and wait 10 years for it to mature. I just say that if NT had discontinued LW and only focused om core I would had left for another more mature 3D app and I feel I'm not alone. Now this is history so we can move on, I'll wait a little longer and see what they present for the future of LW.

erikals
08-12-2014, 04:37 PM
Edit: Maybe I should update my avatar. xD

how about... http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/smile.gif >

Megalodon2.0
08-12-2014, 04:39 PM
I just say that if NT had discontinued LW and only focused om core I would had left for another more mature 3D app and I feel I'm not alone.
And how many have already left LW simply BECAUSE LW could not compete with those other apps and move into the future? CORE had many who use those other apps actually LOOKING at Lightwave and some vets who'd left looking at LW again. That doesn't happen now. No one who uses those "other apps" looks at LW - only new users who aren't familiar with those "other apps" or who can't afford to buy them and don't want to use cracks. Perhaps you would have left, but how many more would have returned to use LW because it was a completely modern app? Of course they should never think of scrapping "classic LW" until CORE was mature enough, but as you said, it's history. :yingyang: