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View Full Version : License transfer fees come to LW, ChronoSculpt



Phil
07-24-2014, 06:12 PM
Dear LightWave 3D Group Customer,

Effective August 1, 2014, a transfer fee of $100 per license will be required to transfer the original registration and ownership of any version of LightWave 3D or ChronoSculpt software to a new owner. The NevronMotion plugin, however, is tied directly to the LightWave 3D license and cannot be transferred separately.

Please email any transfer requests or inquiries to The LightWave 3D Group's customer support desk at [email protected]

We value your business and look forward to working with you in the future.

Rob Powers
President
LightWave 3D Group, a Division of NewTek, Inc.
www.LightWave3D.com

That's a bit of a shame.

ernpchan
07-24-2014, 06:38 PM
I don't mind there being a fee since it probably involves work on their end. $100 seems a bit steep though. But if someone was buying an old copy and jump upgrading they still get a good deal since LW's upgrade policy is so forgiving.

Verlon
07-24-2014, 06:39 PM
That is a bit of a shame. While a service fee is not unreasonable, $100 seems a bit steep for updating a database and adopting a new user. Users will also be more likely to shelve their old copies instead of the hassle of selling them.

Well, unless LW next blows everyone away with snazzy modeler updates and improved performance.

Snosrap
07-24-2014, 06:49 PM
I just got an e-mail from the LW Group. A new transfer policy is in place.

"Dear LightWave 3D Group Customer,

Effective August 1, 2014, a transfer fee of $100 per license will be required to transfer the original registration and ownership of any version of LightWave 3D or ChronoSculpt software to a new owner. The NevronMotion plugin, however, is tied directly to the LightWave 3D license and cannot be transferred separately.

Please email any transfer requests or inquiries to The LightWave 3D Group's customer support desk at [email protected]

We value your business and look forward to working with you in the future.

Rob Powers
President
LightWave 3D Group, a Division of NewTek, Inc"

I'm not sure what to think of this.

evolross
07-24-2014, 06:56 PM
Other companies do the same thing. The Foundry allows one license transfer per year if you have a seat license and then after that it's 195 pounds ($330). I'm guessing Autodesk probably does something similar. I had a coworker who actually bought NukeX, I think he paid $8K - $10K for it, and has to pay a yearly maintenance fee of a few hundred for new versions and he was waiting around for the right time to come so he could transfer the license to another machine he had just bought. You'd think with that much money spent they'd throw you a bone and transfer your license how you want it. Nope. The Foundry and Nuke especially, really annoy me with their pricing. Their shortest rental term for Nuke is a ridiculous three-months. Anyway, I digress. :)

spherical
07-24-2014, 07:16 PM
Following in MODO's path. MBAs are at it again. The thinking is, that they're losing out on a cut of the sale. If licenses had to be sold back to NewTek, then they could re-sell it and make another profit. With the sale going direct, this doesn't happen. Feels like they're losing out, so it's time to generate some income from the secondary market.

IMO, this isn't very "NewTek-like".

This move complicates the sale and ensures that the seller has a more difficult time closing a deal; usually when they need it the most, not to overlook that they often end up getting less for their license in order to make a sale at all; because it now costs another $100. Lines like the last in the message always get me. :/

I never got the expense part of this. Seriously? It takes $100 of time (IIRC, $150 in MODO's case) to change a database? Um, the companies are packed with programmers, by default. If it does take that long, it's time to at least partially, if not fully, automate the process.


Set up a web interface for transfers.
Seller logs in and enters the appropriate Product Serial and Hardware Lock ID to be sold to check that they match.
Specifies an email address that is to whom the license will be sold.
Buyer creates an account using that email as the initial username.
Confirmations on signup go to that email and to the seller's email.
Seller confirms that this is the buyer and approves the transfer.

Not rocket surgery. I'm sure there are some enhancements that could be made but this is the skeleton concept.
NewTek is again at the forefront of the industry by making things easy and affordable for their customers.

willin
07-24-2014, 07:37 PM
Those of you that are crying that Newtek and the LW3DGroup doesn't communicate with you enough, there you go.
I got a license to sell, anyone interested. I believe that it is LW 10.1 Charter License.

mac
07-24-2014, 08:30 PM
Wow, newteks greed knows no bounds!

hazmat777
07-24-2014, 08:31 PM
I was selling two licenses for $270.00 each. NOT ONE RESPONSE. I think that tells you something. Now I'm supposed to add another $100.00 on top or lower the the price to $170.00 ???
This must be a prank or a REALLY bad move from LW Group.

Phil
07-24-2014, 09:03 PM
I don't think it's greed, but I do think it's surprising after all this time and their previous touting of their user-friendly licensing model. I'm also curious how they will enforce this on ebay sales. It's going to be a rude surprise for any buyer. I guess this is also intended to squash all of those educational versions being resold as it is probably cheaper now to buy a new educational license.

So, it's a shame. It's not world-ending. The timing is strange coming up to SIGGY as well.

hrgiger
07-24-2014, 09:19 PM
Seems quite reasonable to me.

And greed? Really, some people need a reality check. LightWave is one of the more affordable 3D applications out there. And that's before you're given 4 FREE feature updates to LightWave 11.

evolross
07-24-2014, 09:23 PM
I'm hoping this "pre SIGGY" announcement isn't because there's going to be a lack of features (or god forbid none at all and/or no new release and/or radio silence) for SIGGRAPH. So if there's a mass license sell off/dumping, there's still money to be made. And/or the $100 is an insurance policy to make people think twice about ditching their license.

Though this probably isn't likely since there wouldn't be a demand for people wanting to buy licenses if there wasn't some cool new stuff being shown at SIGGRAPH. Think positive! :thumbsup: :lwicon:

Greenlaw
07-24-2014, 09:43 PM
Personally, I don't mind since I have no intention of selling the three licenses I own. $100 does sound a little steep for an admin fee but of course it's in LW3DG's interest to encourage new users purchase new licenses. They are a business after all--software costs money to develop, employees need to be paid, families need to be fed, etc., etc.,...

I really don't understand the 'greed' comment. Of all the major 3D programs out there (excluding the open source Blender,) Lightwave continues to be most affordable choice. The program's initial purchase fee is far less than the competition's fee, LW3DG doesn't charge an annual subscription fee, their licensing system is fairly liberal, they give users unlimited render nodes (okay, 999, but close enough,) and the occasional upgrade fee is quite reasonable considering the many free updates we get in-between versions. Even with the price increase (which, if I remember correctly, was a few years ago,) Lightwave is still a bargain.

But that's just a personal opinion of course. :)

G.

mikala
07-24-2014, 10:26 PM
$100 to sit on their hands. I have to start a business like that!

CaptainMarlowe
07-24-2014, 11:57 PM
Personally, I don't mind since I have no intention of selling the three licenses I own. $100 does sound a little steep for an admin fee but of course it's in LW3DG's interest to encourage new users purchase new licenses. They are a business after all--software costs money to develop, employees need to be paid, families need to be fed, etc., etc.,...

I really don't understand the 'greed' comment. Of all the major 3D programs out there (excluding the open source Blender,) Lightwave continues to be most affordable choice. The program's initial purchase fee is far less than the competition's fee, LW3DG doesn't charge an annual subscription fee, their licensing system is fairly liberal, they give users unlimited render nodes (okay, 999, but close enough,) and the occasional upgrade fee is quite reasonable considering the many free updates we get in-between versions. Even with the price increase (which, if I remember correctly, was a few years ago,) Lightwave is still a bargain.

But that's just a personal opinion of course. :)

G.

I agree completely (except that I have only once licence and not three ! ;) )

Edit : this said, I found the mail from Mr. Powers a bit straight. No explanations (of course, they don't have to, but...), just the brute fact. I really miss the Hardcore times when we had some interaction with the team. The last time when there was some interaction was after Siggraph last year, I believe. Since then, we had non news or so few. There was a time when Rob hopped in the forums form time to time, and it made me consider NT/LW3DG different because of this proximity of the leading team with the users. Not anymore, alas. We don't even have a foreword in the newsletters...

jwiede
07-25-2014, 12:11 AM
Pricing for the transfer fee seems quite reasonable, and is stiill lower than most other packages' transfer fees (IIRC). I don't have an issue with the policy, in and of itself, and definitely don't have an issue with the amount of the fee w.r.t. Lightwave licenses.

OTOH, a $100 license transfer fee for Chronosculpt, a $400 product, seems pretty ridiculous -- they've basically killed the CS resale market. It'll prob. keep me from buying CS. I could see maybe a $50 transfer fee for CS, but $100 is just plain silly.

The timing of the decision to change the policy seems odd -- is this some kind preemptive action to try and profit on an expected binge of license sales in the near future? Esp. with SIGGRAPH weeks away, it's just a bit... odd.

To be fair, timing might be totally coincidental, and they never even considered it might be perceived as related to SIGGRAPH somehow. I'd like to think they're a bit more self-aware than that, but we've also seen some spectacular mistakes over the years in communications/messaging, so who knows.

Easiest to wait and see.

Megalodon2.0
07-25-2014, 12:43 AM
While I don't particularly mind it, I think it IS disappointing. And $100 is a little high - IMO. Regardless of my sentiments about Newtek management, I've ALWAYS touted their upgrade and license transfer policies as THE BEST.

Now... well... slightly tarnished.

rave
07-25-2014, 12:46 AM
Finally a promise that they will comply. congratulation!
"We value your business and look forward to working with you in the future."

Oedo 808
07-25-2014, 12:56 AM
I don't mind it being done, but I would be wary of anything being done to make LW less attractive, but maybe the LWG feel it has sufficient traction to make this a good decision. I think ZBrush charges $50 to sell the licence on, $100 seems a bit steep for the demand I've seen for second hand licences recently but it's not so bad overall.

50one
07-25-2014, 01:38 AM
So first changes on the forum structure(Tricaster more exposed - no surprise it's a flagship product that does well ) and now licennce transfer fee....seems someone is preparing for the bigger license transfer.

jwiede beat me to it:


The timing of the decision to change the policy seems odd -- is this some kind preemptive action to try and profit on an expected binge of license sales in the near future? Esp. with SIGGRAPH weeks away, it's just a bit... odd.

I'm on CaptainMarlowe on comms, times changed we're no longer in the 90's, Today communication(Social Media) is the key to any company success, posting some random articles on your Linkedin page or twitter but not engaging with the users is the biggest issue here.

lightscape
07-25-2014, 01:59 AM
Bad move plain and simple. Its not like lightwave is the top 3d software right now to be demanding extra fees.

saranine
07-25-2014, 02:04 AM
Newtek is within its rights, legally and morally, to charge for onselling.

Yet in some ways I am puzzled by this. 100 dollars seems a bit steep. Especially when there is no mention at all in the Powers email of what surely the onseller wants: some sort of proof that the onsell is genuine rather than a pirate. If Newtek DID some work towards this then maybe, just maybe, the fee of 100 bucks is justified. As a % of the purchase price of Lightwave 100 bucks isn't a lot though, whereas for Chronosculpt it is weird.

I wonder if the bigger picture is that Newtek is so worried about poor sales and marketing that they have to try to kill off the onsold mini-market. Or maybe Autodesk has put in an offer?

I also don't know how Newtek will enforce this. If I ever sold my Lightwave licence [which I probably won't] it would be as a package with other software.

Will there be a rush of onselling to beat the deadline of a week? :devil:

spherical
07-25-2014, 02:29 AM
Seems that the other thread in Community has taken off. Unsure how I missed it previously, with it only being minutes earlier.

Here's the thing that is it in a nutshell. What this actually means is that it raises the Total Cost of the software IF you aren't looking:


$1,495.00 to buy a seat.
Fine.
Who keeps their software forever?
No One... Period!
Everyone dies ore eventually gets out of the business one way or another.
Now, to sell a seat, you have to pay them an extra $100.
That $100 is added on top of the original cost; but in an insidious manner.
Get it?

It's called an Exit Strategy and yours just got more expensive; after the fact, without even a kiss.

I see posts over there saying: "Everybody's doing it", "I'm fine with it". Great, if you have more money than brains.

Don't get me wrong. They'll have to wrench my hardware lock out of my cold, dead hands but when crap like this is thrust upon unsuspecting customers it makes my blood boil.

colkai
07-25-2014, 02:32 AM
Another stunningly narrow minded move on Newteks part. Someone has been thinking they can get a bigger cut of a dwindling resource. Dumb.

colkai
07-25-2014, 02:38 AM
I would imagine those thinking of selling will try to do so now, but it seems in future, you are not going to get much for a sale of a second seat as you HAVE to factor in losing that $100. I reckon there are just gonna be a lot of "dead" copies of LW lying on folks shelves, though at least those in business can write them off as an expense. What next, a license expiry if you don't upgrade to the latest version, somehow, I do not see that as unlikely in the future, given they used to be proud of their non-fee transfer, nowt to say another "rethink" about license fees would not occur.

Of course, if you're not selling it doesn't matter, but it could well influence those thinking of buying as it's another thing to factor in.

50one
07-25-2014, 02:50 AM
I would imagine those thinking of selling will try to do so now, but it seems in future, you are not going to get much for a sale of a second seat as you HAVE to factor in losing that $100. I reckon there are just gonna be a lot of "dead" copies of LW lying on folks shelves, though at least those in business can write them off as an expense. What next, a license expiry if you don't upgrade to the latest version, somehow, I do not see that as unlikely in the future, given they used to be proud of their non-fee transfer, nowt to say another "rethink" about license fees would not occur.

Of course, if you're not selling it doesn't matter, but it could well influence those thinking of buying as it's another thing to factor in.

Yup, I paid exactly 100$ dollars for my 8.x license:) To be honest on the secnd hand market old LW copies are being sold around that price.

spherical
07-25-2014, 02:51 AM
For my take on it, see this:
http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?142708-Transfer-license-fee-of-100-for-LW&p=1391809&viewfull=1#post1391809

and this:
http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?142708-Transfer-license-fee-of-100-for-LW&p=1391849&viewfull=1#post1391849
in the LW 3D User Community thread (http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?142708-Transfer-license-fee-of-100-for-LW).

As I state over there, I'm not about to relinquish my seats just yet, but rolling over—as I see a lot of people doing (not surprisingly I might add—most of whom are OK with Autodesk—funny that) is not in the picture for the rest of us. Stuff like this really hacks me off. Thought you knew what the game was? Think again, because we're changing the rules on you and your software just got more expensive.

Just when I begin to really like a company a lot, some dweeb comes along and does some [expletive withheld by me] thing like this. It's like we're regarded as being a bottomless pit of money, just waiting to be extracted. My day has just been un-made.

Lewis
07-25-2014, 02:52 AM
Agree with colkai, second hand license still can generate nice revenue. sitting dead on shelves non upgraded ain't gonna be helpful.

I guess it's already happening :(
http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?140123-2-LW-licenses-for-sale

spherical
07-25-2014, 03:01 AM
Not good for PR and the public perception of an organization. That never comes into anyone's minds when they cook something up like this.

"Ah, there'll be a lot of rancor at the start but they'll settle down. After that, it's all free money." Rude.

dnch
07-25-2014, 03:11 AM
just when I wanted to drop some money to upgrade, **** this ****, pardon my french

and this sentence is just a joke "We value your business and look forward to working with you in the future. " yeah right

sukardi
07-25-2014, 03:52 AM
Personally, I think it is not a big deal for Newtek to charge $100 for license transfer, esp considering what the competitors are doing. However, they should have been much smarter PR wise.

If they announce this at the same time as releasing a significant point release (11.6 for example) it would have been much easier for the community to swallow...

OnlineRender
07-25-2014, 04:17 AM
personally I think the 11.7 Free upgrade justifies the additional $100 sellers fee .... but I can see why some people are pissed it's the equivalent of bank charging you 38 for going over by 1p , but at the end of the day it's a business

dnch
07-25-2014, 04:23 AM
yeah well, they are in 3d software business, not in charging for random stuff that used to be free business, what is next? monthly payments for using HUB? this shows newtek is in deep shithole and they need money, not a good sign

dnch
07-25-2014, 04:26 AM
and dont get me wrong, I never sold my licence and didnt plan to do it, the crap about "second hand business is harmful for us" pisses me off, it started in gaming industry and now its here.. its ********, newtek wont loose customer by someone selling their licence, just the opposite in most cases

fishhead
07-25-2014, 04:47 AM
Well, everybody has got their right of an opinion, thats perfectly fine.
Of course this may rise doubts on the communication skills of the management.
I would be curious about a statement how this relates to changes in the general license policy, in context with that the news of the fee would probably have caused much less controversy...


But for the situation at the time being (I just assume it will not change so much now - one can hope, right?) even if it is not the exact same matter, one might consider that still Newtek has one the absolute most customer friendly upgrade/license policies of pretty much all commercial software in this industry (Well maybe except Pixologic here, I do not own a copy myself but rumours go you have a lifelong guaranty to free updates, is that really true?).

Just for an example: the company I worked for - on and off - the last years owned licences of LW, bought back in 2004, for a project decided to upgrade these when I joined them for a project in 2011 for $495 each I believe. That was 10.1 at the time which qualified them to get a free upgrade to 11 when it was released ending up with an still uptodate version of the software until now; and most of you might agree, it is clearly not the worst piece of software out there... So basically newtek charged the company a very reasonable price more than 10 Years ago, got a little on top of that almost 4 years ago... I think that company I work for got a lot bang for their buck during that period of time...



just my 2 Cents...

lorenz

50one
07-25-2014, 05:02 AM
personally I think the 11.7 Free upgrade justifies the additional $100 sellers fee


If this is their justification...then OMG!LW is doomed.


11.7 been in the works for the past few months, you really think that couple of folks giving them couple hundreds of dollars will pay for the development/advertising/office rental costs/whatever ?:)


I would be more happy to know what 11.7 will bring in advance and being told that I need to pay $100 for it(with small note that times changed and they no longer can afford .xx updates for free) this would be more beneficial for them.

SBowie
07-25-2014, 05:56 AM
So first changes on the forum structure(Tricaster more exposed - no surprise it's a flagship product that does well ) and now licennce transfer fee....seems someone is preparing for the bigger license transfer.I can tell you with complete confidence that this assumption belongs in the same category as "Airliner shot down over Ukraine, Concordia Costa re-floated, all in the same month ... conicidence? I think not!" ;)

raymondtrace
07-25-2014, 07:02 AM
Is this policy limited to certain regions? I understood that there are legal rights in the EU where a software user could resell their license without need to further compensate the original vendor.

http://curia.europa.eu/juris/document/document.jsf?text=&docid=124564&pageIndex=0&doclang=EN&mode=req&dir=&occ=first&part=1&cid=5213884

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-sale_doctrine

hrgiger
07-25-2014, 07:59 AM
I don't see what all the fuss is about. Really, with the expense of 3D software these days, $100 seems like a small price to pay for selling the software. Who knows, maybe the extra money will be helpful while they're working so hard to bring you all the free updates you guys get. 11.7 will be the 4th free feature update we will have received in the LW11 series. They are a business after all, not just the 'nice guy' in the industry.

If I had any issue with this announcement (and I really don't) is that maybe they should wait until they have new announcements about the software itself before adding more expense such as LightWave 11.7 or just before or after LW12.

Nicolas Jordan
07-25-2014, 09:01 AM
I don't plan on selling my license in the foreseeable future so this fee is a non issue for me. I wonder if a larger than usual number of license transfers prompted them to implement this fee?

Phil
07-25-2014, 09:07 AM
I don't see what all the fuss is about. Really, with the expense of 3D software these days, $100 seems like a small price to pay for selling the software.

Depends. Resale prices are already very low, so this will push them even lower to compensate (and then you hit the point where the return for the seller is just not worth the time), or it will just inflate the price (and no-one will bite) - see the examples elsewhere of LW 10.x licenses for 270 USD not getting any interest - now that's become 370 USD so I don't see this helping the situation. This license transfer fee applies even to an ancient version of LW (hell, it would now cost you 100 USD to give LW away!). I'm not sure that I understand the reason for the fee in the first place: a dormant license adds nothing of value to LW3DG. A resold license brings potential for upgrade sales (that the original owner would not take advantage of, else they would not be selling) through a (possibly new) active user (who may also go on to support 3rd parties).


Who knows, maybe the extra money will be helpful while they're working so hard to bring you all the free updates you guys get. 11.7 will be the 4th free feature update we will have received in the LW11 series. They are a business after all, not just the 'nice guy' in the industry.

Killing license transfers will not solve that problem, but has the great potential to impact the numbers of new and active users that will worsen the situation. If their business model is causing them to bleed cash, there's no-one forcing them to make ongoing feature updates like this. I know that they announced the end of such things with LW 10.0 and this caused a lot of wailing and gnashing of teeth. They reversed that with LW 11, which caused people to moan yet again that they were being robbed because they'd sold LW 10 licenses based on the weak upgrade value, and felt cheated that the 11.x days would return to previous form. However, from a business perspective, I've not seen the economic sense in comparatively long product lifetimes (LW11 was released ~2.5 years ago!) as the competition pulls in annual revenue and profit for multiple releases (confining interim updates to bug fixes and minor feature work).

From the user perspective, it's wonderful. From the business perspective, LW3DG's approach seems fraught with peril in terms of investing and improving the product on an on-going basis in such a competitive environment. This is not the 1990s where the competition is out-of-reach : the pricing of 3D software is, frankly, pretty low for the capabilities provided and the invested resource.


If I had any issue with this announcement (and I really don't) is that maybe they should wait until they have new announcements about the software itself before adding more expense such as LightWave 11.7 or just before or after LW12.

I would have better understood a statement saying that they are going back to only having bug-fixes between paid upgrades. This, I don't understand at all.

Phil
07-25-2014, 09:12 AM
Not rocket surgery.

Hmmm

Triodin
07-25-2014, 09:20 AM
I think the biggest rub is that everything has been silent for so long, and the one bit of "official" communication is "I CAN HAS $100?"

I know Siggraph is right around the corner, but you check the Forum: NewTek LightWave 3D Group Announcements threads and not a single update for entire 2014.

I get it though, gotta stay in business. I don't plan on selling my license anytime soon, so no skin off my nose. :D

GandB
07-25-2014, 09:25 AM
I don't plan on selling my license in the foreseeable future so this fee is a non issue for me. I wonder if a larger than usual number of license transfers prompted them to implement this fee?

Could be a lot of people are jumping ship then. I think some here are speculating correctly, that LW 12 had better be something substantial. It seems that it will be the last straw for some of those that are still here. Very little communication does little to address concerns, especially when there is a plethora of info coming from the competitors. Call it what you want (ie., conspiracy hype, etc.); but the moving of the Lightwave Boards, after all these years, to me was a sign. I suspect that the release info for version 12 will include a few tidbits "geared towards game artists", at which point they call it good (as far as having addressed game artists). I know....I know; I'm a "whiner", all I do every time is enlighten them about a large community that is left untapped at every turn. The day I stop posting about it, is the day I've given up on Rob and Crew and stop caring. I'm posting less and less here, these days.

GandB
07-25-2014, 09:57 AM
As I said elsewhere...if they didn't have Tricaster as their main income source; this would all be a different situation. I'm pretty sure Core would have went ahead and we'd have a unified App at this point. Lightwave is secondary to them (at best) and always has been. This is just another nail....

Chuck
07-25-2014, 10:03 AM
I'm guessing Autodesk probably does something similar.

Not sure it is still the case, but at least formerly AutoDesk simply did not allow for a licensee to sell their license to someone else. It was also the case that if you skipped two ordinal upgrades, your license was no longer eligible for upgrade, you had to purchase a new license at full price to get the current software.

Chuck
07-25-2014, 10:13 AM
I guess this is also intended to squash all of those educational versions being resold as it is probably cheaper now to buy a new educational license.

At least formerly, Educational licenses were not transferable unless upgraded to commercial. I'd have to check with the LA office to be sure, but I don't recall seeing anything that indicated a change in that policy.

Edit: And allowing the upgrade to commercial from educational was just a matter of paying the commercial upgrade price at an upgrade, instead of the edu upgrade price. Most of the time competitors either expected an edu licensee to purchase commercial for the difference between ed and commercial MSRP, and in a case or two they offered no discounts to edu users - to go commercial they needed to purchase a new license at full price.

Phil
07-25-2014, 10:17 AM
At least formerly, Educational licenses were not transferable unless upgraded to commercial. I'd have to check with the LA office to be sure, but I don't recall seeing anything that indicated a change in that policy.

eBay seems to be full of EDU licenses for resale, which is why I was speculating.

Chuck
07-25-2014, 10:20 AM
eBay seems to be full of EDU licenses for resale, which is why I was speculating.

Thanks for the head's-up, Phil! I'll let the appropriate managers know.

hrgiger
07-25-2014, 10:34 AM
Depends. Resale prices are already very low, so this will push them even lower to compensate (and then you hit the point where the return for the seller is just not worth the time), or it will just inflate the price (and no-one will bite) - see the examples elsewhere of LW 10.x licenses for 270 USD not getting any interest - now that's become 370 USD so I don't see this helping the situation. This license transfer fee applies even to an ancient version of LW (hell, it would now cost you 100 USD to give LW away!). I'm not sure that I understand the reason for the fee in the first place: a dormant license adds nothing of value to LW3DG. A resold license brings potential for upgrade sales (that the original owner would not take advantage of, else they would not be selling) through a (possibly new) active user (who may also go on to support 3rd parties).

My question would be has the seller posted the licenses anywhere else but here on the NT forums? Posting your license to a crowd that most likely already has LW licenses to begin with doesn't seem like an excellent selling strategy.

Concerning the fee, yes a dormant license adds nothing of value to LW3DG, but then again, how much money do they lose by people who do decide to buy LightWave but then buy a existing license from another user instead of LW3DG getting the cash? Again, LW3DG is a business.




Killing license transfers will not solve that problem, but has the great potential to impact the numbers of new and active users that will worsen the situation. If their business model is causing them to bleed cash, there's no-one forcing them to make ongoing feature updates like this. I know that they announced the end of such things with LW 10.0 and this caused a lot of wailing and gnashing of teeth. They reversed that with LW 11, which caused people to moan yet again that they were being robbed because they'd sold LW 10 licenses based on the weak upgrade value, and felt cheated that the 11.x days would return to previous form. However, from a business perspective, I've not seen the economic sense in comparatively long product lifetimes (LW11 was released ~2.5 years ago!) as the competition pulls in annual revenue and profit for multiple releases (confining interim updates to bug fixes and minor feature work).

I know of only one person who routinely complains that they somehow got screwed because they sold their LW 10 license and then were upset that LW11 offered much more value. The bottom line is that there is no guarantee when you buy into a new cycle that there will be free updates later on. Anyone who buys something with the hope that it will bring more benefits later only has themselves to blame if those benefits don't ever happen. You buy software or other things for the benefits you can see, not what you hope it will give you.

Concerning the length of the LW11 cycle... I've just heard that LW 12 will be a push in a lot of areas so they are spending significant time on it. I imagine from what I've heard a lot of people say that a lot is riding on what LW12 has to offer. Either way, I'm not sure how anyone can complain about the value that LW11 offered and is continuing to offer since we're on the eve of a 4th free feature update in that time.

Greenlaw
07-25-2014, 10:48 AM
Rat's, there goes my side business. ;)

G.

GandB
07-25-2014, 11:39 AM
To be sure; I'll be watching the release of version 12 as well.

creacon
07-25-2014, 11:51 AM
Newtek has one of the most flexible license systems in the 3D market.

We get ripped off year after year by autodesk, no reselling of licenses, if you stop maintenance you fall back on the license you bought, Upgrades that break all existing plugins, 45% higher pricing in Europe and I could go on, ....
Don't get me started on Adobe...

Reselling of licenses IS costing them money, and at the pricepoint of LW they shouldn't even allow it at all.

Okay, you can start shooting now!

creacon

Phil
07-25-2014, 11:56 AM
Reselling of licenses IS costing them money, and at the pricepoint of LW they shouldn't even allow it at all.

creacon

On what data are you basing this assertion? Just writing it in upper-case doesn't make it so. I'd argue that the HardCORE discounted upgrades for the next 4 (now) releases is costing them far more, especially since the upgrade charges seem to be only every two years or so based on the current lifespan of 11.x. That's another 6-8 years before that boat anchor is removed.

creacon
07-25-2014, 12:10 PM
We have 1 active license and 9 dormant licenses, the hardcore discounted upgrade is what is keeping us around, hoping that Newtek gets their stuff sorted out. Otherwise we wouldn't even bother sticking around.

And as far as you're question is concerned, I am basing it on pure logic and economics. If we need more Maya licenses, we would buy them second hand, why wouldn't we? They would be cheaper and since it's just software there wouldn't be any difference with a new license. But there are no second hand licenses of Maya so we have to buy new ones.

creacon




On what data are you basing this assertion? Just writing it in upper-case doesn't make it so. I'd argue that the HardCORE discounted upgrades for the next 4 (now) releases is costing them far more, especially since the upgrade charges seem to be only every two years or so based on the current lifespan of 11.x. That's another 6-8 years before that boat anchor is removed.

jwiede
07-25-2014, 12:50 PM
And as far as you're question is concerned, I am basing it on pure logic and economics. If we need more Maya licenses, we would buy them second hand, why wouldn't we? They would be cheaper and since it's just software there wouldn't be any difference with a new license. But there are no second hand licenses of Maya so we have to buy new ones.

The extremely low prices at which second-hand licenses are selling is ample demonstration to the contrary. Were there significant pent-up demand for second-hand licenses, the licenses would be able to command prices much closer to "new" (because buyer competition would push the prices up). That most of the second-hand licenses are selling in the $150-250 range (regardless of starting price point) indicates that, in contrast, demand is quite weak.

And, of course, the situation for ChronoSculpt is quite different than the situation for LW: This change basically destroys the viability of selling used CS licenses, outright.

I'm kind of surprised nobody has brought up yet whether it is even legit for LW3DG to unilaterally change the terms of the EULA after sale in this particular manner. Normally, there's a kind of quid pro quo required to do such changes: A new charge is introduced, but also a new benefit or service for the customer as well. In this case, they've just added a charge to an existing spelled-out customer benefit (license transferability), without any sort of matching compensation for the customer.

It's not like we're subscribers re-signing EULAs each month, we agreed to the EULA at time of purchase, period. Companies can put in all the "Seller has the right to unilaterally change EULA at will in future" language they want, but it doesn't mean they legally have that unrestricted right.

calilifestyle
07-25-2014, 01:09 PM
I've never really understood why the cost for software sold by a user was priced so low. I mean your selling bytes that never show wear or tear. It always have the new car smell whenever you install it. I think the price for used software should have always been close to the same price sold by the company, unless it's an older version that is.
As far as the fees, i think now that no dongle is required and all of it is being managed by website. There has to be an Admin in place to move these licenses around.

cresshead
07-25-2014, 01:18 PM
I would imagine those thinking of selling will try to do so now, but it seems in future, you are not going to get much for a sale of a second seat as you HAVE to factor in losing that $100. I reckon there are just gonna be a lot of "dead" copies of LW lying on folks shelves, though at least those in business can write them off as an expense. What next, a license expiry if you don't upgrade to the latest version, somehow, I do not see that as unlikely in the future, given they used to be proud of their non-fee transfer, nowt to say another "rethink" about license fees would not occur.

Of course, if you're not selling it doesn't matter, but it could well influence those thinking of buying as it's another thing to factor in.

well on the upside Newtek raised the rrp from $999 to $1495 so the second hand price should have jumped up accordingly
but.... the upgrade price also jumped up from $495 to $695

$100 fee to change an email address associated with a licence..hmm

as for chronosculpt - that's now a non sellable item really..( $100 for a $399 rrp app) unless they are about to raise it's rrp to $695 with a version 2.0 due out in 16 days.

bobakabob
07-25-2014, 03:50 PM
Wow, considering what's going on in the world, this is yer proverbial storm in a teacup. People buying into this software get a helluva lot of bang for their buck. Are Newtek expected to be a charity? Fair enough if they clarify licensing and impose a teeny fee. I can't remember the last time I paid for an upgrade, there have been so many productive developments from the team.

spherical
07-25-2014, 03:56 PM
(Well maybe except Pixologic here, I do not own a copy myself but rumours go you have a lifelong guaranty to free updates, is that really true?).

Yes it is. Happy Charter Member.

stephefrank
07-25-2014, 04:04 PM
no one will mind these type of charges when the package is getting good updates and advancements like MODO, Maya, Nuke etc. Lightwave development is slowwwwwwwwwwwwwwww..
admit it newtek!

spherical
07-25-2014, 05:53 PM
I can't remember the last time I paid for an upgrade

Huh?

That aside, it's always interesting how polarized these things become; and you can pretty much predict who will take which position. Someday, I may have that much money.

Snosrap
07-25-2014, 09:20 PM
Lightwave development is slowwwwwwwwwwwwwwww..
I think one of the reasons this cycle is so slow is that they are working on new architecture which in turn should make future development cycles much faster. Granted other cycles have been slow too but this is the first with Rob in charge. (Yes I know he was around during the 10 phase but he inherited that at the last minute and 11 and 11.5/6 were just quick advancements on v10.) So, like others have said v12 needs to kick @$$. The Foundry charges something similar for transfers and I don't think license transfers of AD and Maxon products are even possible. Also the non-dongle licensing might have something to do with it.

Davewriter
07-25-2014, 10:29 PM
It is one of those areas that had always had a bit of question to it in the past. Could I? How do I? Never seemed to be a stated policy.
I had been working for a different type of business. We were always asked about returns. Many times we were asked in detail what the return policy was before ever completing that first sale. Finally the company came up with a stock answer - a 25% return fee and you paid for the shipping on the return on non custom items - no return on custom pieces with the exception of flaws, etc. And customers would find this unfair. Unfair to whom?
A show would buy extra items as a "just in case" thinking that they'd simply return the unused stuff at the end of the show. That way they'd be covered in the case of a 1am emergancy and in return it wouldn't cost them a thing.
On the other hand my company didn't view themselves as being a lending library. Why sell the show a bunch of items only to see a truck back up and bring it back one week... six weeks later? What about lost sales inbetween? Sorry if your director or (fill in job title here) wants his rump covered for free, but "insurance" was not the item being purchased.
The 25% plus cost of return was also a "stop and think about it" moment. Is it worth my time and effort to return something I purchased, and was sold in good faith?
You purchase LW and use it for a project and now you'd like to recoup part of the price to help your bottom line? Is that really a Newtek issue? Newtek provides software. In most cases you have the opportunity to test drive it - kick the tires - even poke around forums to see if it is what will get you through your (fill in project here). But if the fact that it would cost you $100.00 to pass along something you won't use again after your project... then I guess you should be asking the same of the "others" out there and see what you best bargain is before you buy.
Maybe it's just me. Or maybe I had to listen to too many "It's just this one time..." stories.
Or maybe it's because I had a change in meds today, have this extra hole in my neck and I'm grumpy :)

lightscape
07-25-2014, 11:19 PM
I've never really understood why the cost for software sold by a user was priced so low. I mean your selling bytes that never show wear or tear. It always have the new car smell whenever you install it. I think the price for used software should have always been close to the same price sold by the company, unless it's an older version that is.
As far as the fees, i think now that no dongle is required and all of it is being managed by website. There has to be an Admin in place to move these licenses around.

That's a good point. I guess for most people if the price of used software was close to the original price from the company itself then why bother getting the used software that has some risk.
The reselling price of software is also dependent on how popular it is. Lightwave, Modo, Messiah can't ask for premium selling price imho.

spherical
07-26-2014, 12:25 AM
It is one of those areas that had always had a bit of question to it in the past. <SNIP> Or maybe I had to listen to too many "It's just this one time..." stories. Or maybe it's because I had a change in meds today, have this extra hole in my neck and I'm grumpy :)

OK, here's the thing (after I've had a day or so to boil this down):

It isn't about charging for license transfers.
It isn't about getting some grease form the secondary market (so much).
To a degree, it is about "everybody else is doing it".
BUT, what it really is about is $100 for what is essentially a programmable and user-handled operation.
If the announcement said: $25, no one would be complaining at all. That is in the actual realm of what it should cost to process a license transfer if it actually had to be done manually; which it doesn't.
THIS IS THE RUB—combined with the throwaway statement at the close of the announcement message that says: "We're changing the rules—like it or don't—but we love you."

Customers want, and deserve, to be treated at least as if they matter. That is the largest aspect of this whole thing. Sudden shifts in their reality, imposed by a corporate decision after the fact, apparently made in a vacuum, can wreak havoc on the finances of personal and small business clients. Apparently there are those who have disposable cash to spend and they rubber stamp the "it's OK" side, because it matters little to them. Not all NewTek customers are in this position; especially in this economic climate. One size does not fit all, even though companies would prefer to think so and charge ahead (pun intended).

Make it a reasonable amount, and I mean REALLY, BELIEVABLY reasonable, to cover actual costs that people can hang their hat on and no one would really complain. Other than that, take a look at the Web-Driven solution that I posted farther up this thread and return to being what NewTek has always been; true to their word, true to the deal struck when we all bought in, and the best 3D company out there having forward thinking.

Want to be true to: Join The Rebellion!"? Well.... here's your chance to do that and show everyone that you mean it.

Going back on that long-standing promise of no-fee transfers may smooth out over time (everyone forgets, right ?) but, with the market tightening up, perhaps not the best move.

Make it, KEEP IT, easy to own LightWave, not more difficult and needlessly more expensive; for sellers and buyers. Doesn't compute.

Users have to sell for varying reasons. Don't penalize them for being in a position that they very well may not wish to be in. Let's face it, licenses are sold for the most part when things get tough. They search for whatever they may be able to do without, however unpalatable that may be, in order to maintain an even strain and make it through to the other side. If that weren't the case, they'd be happily LightWaving on into the future. Making money on the backs of people's adversity just isn't a good image. Keep the fee low, or eliminate it. Far more can be gained, on many levels, by doing The Right Thing.

@ Dave: Sorry to hear about your neck. OUCH! A couple of stiff grogs wouldn't be out of line right now. Heal quick.

cresshead
07-26-2014, 06:32 AM
could be they are trying to change the second hand market for Lightwave..maybe second hand sale pricing of Lightwave are hurting new sales of lightwave?
if second hand sales of 11 are going cheap then just buy a second hand seat at cheap price.

hrgiger
07-26-2014, 07:19 AM
i just dont get how people can get so hung up on a $100 when youre dealing with, aside from Blender, one of the more affordable full 3D apps on the market. Especially since most users may never be affected by it. We are about to receive our 4th free feature release of LW11, not to mention the money LW3DG is discounting CORE subscribers (for me personally if i buy the next 4 upgrades they are saving me at least $1500. Maybe if LightWave was alone in this, i might see people being a little annoyed but The Foundry does the same thing. But in their case, they will only allow you to transfer the current version or the one immediately proceeding it but LW3DG has no such restriction and you are still able to buy a much older copy of LW and upgrade it to the current version for the same price. arent there other apps that dont allow you to transfer it at all?

To suggest LW3DG is doing some kind of disservice to its users by this fee is sure overlooking a lot of other value we receive as users.

jasonwestmas
07-26-2014, 07:53 AM
I say make it hard to sell your licenses, then people won't leave. ;)

roboman
07-26-2014, 12:24 PM
I'm shocked Newtek didn't do this a long time ago. I've got a license of Max I can't sell (last I checked). I've got several CAD and CAM licenses I can't sell. Seems totaly reasonable to hit a middle ground and be the the more friendly company. Hell half the packages don't even give you 'free' support. $100 seems a bit high, but not unreasonable, given the free support and the fact that they are reasonably likely to need to give some support to a new user.

jburford
07-26-2014, 01:51 PM
Well it has been a long damn time since I was learning Accounting and Business Administraction (early 80s), but that is not the whole picture. With the Sale/Purchase also comes Liabilities in various forms. . . .





$100 fee to change an email address associated with a licence..hmm

jburford
07-26-2014, 01:55 PM
Yes, Transfer of Maxon Products are possible, pretty easy, and 2 years ago when I picked up a second hand copy (Tranfer of older License), they did not charge a thing to Transfer to me. Neither did Adobe around 4 years back when they sold full copies. Picked up a License from a gent in the UK, and got transfered fine and without charge.



and I don't think license transfers of AD and Maxon products are even possible. Also the non-dongle licensing might have something to do with it.

jburford
07-26-2014, 02:02 PM
If that was the Whole Picture, then one could agree in regards to a fee to "cover actual" costs of the transfer. But, it is not as simple as that. There are inherit Liabilities and Loss of Revenues due to a cheaper upgrade fee from such Upgrade to current versions as well as liabilities of function of such product.





If the announcement said: $25, no one would be complaining at all. That is in the actual realm of what it should cost to process a license transfer if it actually had to be done manually; which it doesn't.

Make it a reasonable amount, and I mean REALLY, BELIEVABLY reasonable, to cover actual costs that people can hang their hat on and no one would really complain.

Greenlaw
07-26-2014, 02:37 PM
Also the non-dongle licensing might have something to do with it.

That's a good point. I really appreciate the new licensing system because it's less restrictive than the old dongle system and allows me to get about more freely, but I can see how an unscrupulous user might try to sell his license and keep it too. LW3DG isn't prohibiting re-sale and transfers of licenses but the fee is probably meant to discourage it for any number of legitimate reasons and concerns.

Anyway I think this has become much ado about nothing. As others have noted, even with the transfer fee, LW3DG's policies still favor the user more than what you'll find with most other competing 3D animation software.

G.

Megalodon2.0
07-26-2014, 02:57 PM
If that was the Whole Picture, then one could agree in regards to a fee to "cover actual" costs of the transfer. But, it is not as simple as that. There are inherit Liabilities and Loss of Revenues due to a cheaper upgrade fee from such Upgrade to current versions as well as liabilities of function of such product.

And yet many people will not purchase a version at regular price. So it is wise that Newtek does allow license transfers since I would bet that MANY hobbyists have purchased used copies. And then they will in turn (often) purchase an upgrade - money to Newtek that would not have occurred if the hobbyist was required to purchase at full price.

I have purchased probably close to a 10 second hand LW licenses. Currently they are mostly 9.x. And ultimate I will most likely upgrade ALL of them. But I can guarantee that if I'd had to pay full price for each license, I would more than likely only have two licenses instead of the ~12 I have. And most of those second hand licenses came with a high-end plugin like Sasquatch or FPrime or LWCAD - and they were purchased for generally no more than $250. Adding another $100 would make me think twice. This move will more than likely end up with many users who don't use LW anymore NOT selling their copies because they wouldn't be able to get the money to make it worthwhile. I'd be curious to see how this progresses. $50 for LW and $25 for CS may have been far easier to swallow.

spherical
07-26-2014, 10:47 PM
Exactly. I got into LW at v5.5 by purchasing a second market license. I've stayed current through the years and we added a second seat; upgrading that in parallel now. This resulted in thousands of dollars of direct revenue for NewTek; and we're not stopping there. Had I been slapped with a transfer fee back then, on top of the purchase price, I'd likely not have jumped. Allowing users who Don't Have As Much Cash To Throw Around As Some In This Thread, to buy into LightWave can certainly reap ongoing benefits for a long, long time.

Yep, you can make a short term gain and shoot yourself in the foot long term. Your choice. I suppose that a $100 bird in the hand seems better than a $6,000+ bird in the bush but, is it... really?

Then there's the "Everything Else Out There Is More Expensive, You're Getting Off Cheap" argument. Uhhh, most of us chose LightWave because it is affordable. Making it far less affordable, percentage-wise to the price of a second market license, isn't a good move. Again, make it easy to get in.

Further, just because "Everybody's Doing It" is no reason to do so. It's the same argument that parents fend off all the time when their kids want because [I]"everybody at school has one".

BTW, I don't get the "liabilities" aspect mentioned above. How is a license any different, liability-wise, whether it is an original sale or second market? Seems that with second market, any liability of the producer of the software would be once removed by the existence of the person selling the license. Charging a transfer fee could have the reverse effect of placing the burden of liability back onto the entity charging the fee.

hrgiger
07-27-2014, 03:04 AM
Honestly, is a $100 fee if you ever choose to sell or buy a secondhand copy of LightWave taking LightWave from the affordable category to the unaffordable category? Really.

lightscape
07-27-2014, 05:46 AM
Honestly, is a $100 fee if you ever choose to sell or buy a secondhand copy of LightWave taking LightWave from the affordable category to the unaffordable category? Really.

Depends who you ask.
For a pro earning thousands per project, no. For a pro earning a lot less than that per project, yes.
For hobbyist, yes, even if golf is a hobby its a totally different kind of hobby not comparable to 3d software. Maybe its the same as playing a videogame hobby. So 100usd for one game is a lot of money imo.
100usd is also good to spend on some plugins instead, keeping the whole lightwave thirdparty healthy, lwcad, octane.

jasonwestmas
07-27-2014, 07:25 AM
Why does a lightwave hobbyist need multiple lightwave licenses to sell at a later date?

zapper1998
07-27-2014, 09:15 AM
Who's Bright Idea was this anyways....

Maybe $10.00 transfer fee... I could see..
But $100.00 transfer fee.... considering the percentage of price for software/transfer price..



T O T A L L Y .... S T U P I D ....

imho

colkai
07-28-2014, 07:08 AM
Why does a lightwave hobbyist need multiple lightwave licenses to sell at a later date?

Perchance it would not be about multiple licenses, but someone say with one license, who, I dunno, maybe lost their job, (mirror check), so was thinking of raising some much needed cash? If I sold my license and had to factor in losing $100 in the process, then I know I'm going to get a pittance for it. Yeah sure, any money is better than none, so next time a client under bids for your work, you can hold that ethos close and accept a stupidly low bid? (Nah, didn't think so.) :p

Verlon
07-28-2014, 07:55 AM
Honestly, is a $100 fee if you ever choose to sell or buy a secondhand copy of LightWave taking LightWave from the affordable category to the unaffordable category? Really.

Ever hear of "the straw that broke the camel's back?"

When I bought my original copy of LW5.5, $100 would have made the difference in me being able to afford it. I then went on to pre-order every upgrade until 11 (was disappointed and held out tip 11.5). I told other people about how great Lightwave was, and one of the things I always touted was how LW was like a product. When you sell your car, you don't have to pay a transfer fee to Ford. For people for whom $100 does make a difference today, Blender just got $100 more attractive. For people who can afford it, Modo/Cinema/Maya just got $100 more attractive.

For the support/liabilities argument: one seat of Lightwave = 1 unit of support. What difference does it make to NT if it is me griping about support or the kid next door if only one of us is entitled to complain?

I suspect the real issue is that the used market is perceived to diminish the value of the new software. Why pay $1495 when I can get a 'just as good' used license for $270. But, the $270 seems to be what the market will bear at the moment. Rather than seeing "we have to make our software more valuable," they have read "we have to make our software more expensive."

Then we could go on and talk about underpaid 3D artists hitting hard times and having to sell licenses on the cheap, but that is really out of Newtek's control.

I agree that $25 is more reasonable. I would think that the best solution would be making it easier to get started in and hooked on Lightwave. Maybe LW11.7/12 will be so good as to justify this. I certainly hope so.

cagey5
07-28-2014, 10:53 AM
But Modo has the same $100 transfer fee doesn't it? So why would it be more attractive because of this change. Also as I understand it the Modo license can only be sold on once. Perhaps that will be the next step for Lightwave too.

lightscape
07-28-2014, 11:10 AM
Lets put this in Modo's perspective.
It could be that used sales are SIGNIFICANT enough to affect the brandnew sale from Lux. So to deter people from buying used they put 100usd which is enough for some people not to buy used but instead consider the brandnew license instead.
The notion that people who buy used and upgrade later on might not be a SIGNIFICANT number that Lux feels that its better if people just buy brandnew directly from them since its 100% sure profit. More money in the long run from the first sale up to the next upgrades that user will pay.
It can't be cost of processing. How much effort does it really take to process a few details on the database. A couple of emails and a few minutes.
I still think 100usd is too high.

dulo
07-28-2014, 11:44 AM
It should be around 25$. That whould be OK in my opinion, but 100$ are still much better than a 1000$ like eyeon is charging ..

hrgiger
07-28-2014, 01:35 PM
Modo only allows you to transfer the current version of the software or the release immediately proceeding it so right now only 801 and 701 would be able to be transferred. Anything before that and the license would be useless to another person and can't be sold.

jwiede
07-28-2014, 05:32 PM
Modo only allows you to transfer the current version of the software or the release immediately proceeding it so right now only 801 and 701 would be able to be transferred. Anything before that and the license would be useless to another person and can't be sold.
The average used price of a modo license is significantly higher than that of a used LW license, as well, so $100 is a smaller percentage of the total modo used license cost.

Shnoze Shmon
07-28-2014, 06:16 PM
Well according to the theory that those with extra cash to throw around say its no big deal and those who don't say it is, I should be upset about this. Need to find another reason to explain the polarization.

Personally I can't believe it every time I see a current seat offered for less than $500. My own being purchased used with a few extras as 9.6 when it was still the current release. I was buying as a hobbyist breaking into the field for the first time. Paid $800 if I remember right. Would have bought new and paid full price because I was nervous about buying used, except the "extras" and a little off the top was enough incentive to risk it. That's one thing about LightWave. It's the only highly capable 3D software that is still priced in the range of a hobbyist at the listed price.

I only have one seat. Can't imagine needing two, but yet I cringe every time I see one offered for nothing. Makes me want to get a loan if necessarily so I can scoop them up, but I have absolutely no use for a second seat. Especially since NewTek lets you install on multiple machines. WOW! CAN WE SAY CLIENT FRIENDLY!!!! I don't see how 2-3 hundred bucks would get me through a really tough time (like I'm currently in) and selling an asset for 1/5 or less, it's value when I could get more with a part time burger job (which is currently on the table) seems short sited. If I had a second seat of LW 11, which would be completely useless to me right now, I would not let it go for $300 even though I am currently desperate for income. That is too insignificant a sum to be effective and if someone has any real interest in acquiring a current LW seat they will not have a problem paying more.

Those who are saying they may just leave LW over this I'm a little incredulous at. Those who list an Autodesk product as a choice for their migration over THIS issue seem totally insane to me. Somebody turned up the thermostat from 68deg to 72deg so now your mad and your going to jump into a 2000deg furnace out of spite? REALLY??? I totally don't get you!

Those who say $100 is just a bit much of a fee. Well maybe your right, maybe your not. I can't see NewTek being anywhere near the company that would just pick an arbitrary number in a matter like this. They have too much of a history, even up to current times, of customer friendliness and considerate policy towards "the little guy". If it were Autodesk I would expect the reason for a $100 dollar fee to be because they can't conceive of a fee being smaller. And that small a fee would be for something like talking to the receptionist.

Those who think the last line in the email was a bit unbelievable considering especially the way and circumstances it was announced, well that's a reasonable point. But on the other hand, what the heck would you put on such an email?

mikala
07-28-2014, 06:20 PM
Well they could have written "Don't let the door hit you in the butt on the way out"

Davewriter
07-28-2014, 08:16 PM
Wow! Is there some great event on the horizon where everyone is suddenly going to be wanting to sell their copy? I think this was more of a setting down what rule would be going forward. Now the free market can kick in and do it's bit. The seller will still try to get as much as possible and the buyer will try to get for as cheap as possible.

As to the "if I was selling my car" bit, well here in Calif - yes, there is a transfer fee. Hell, the was it's going here there may soon be a "Drinking Water" fee. Maybe not paid back to Ford, but it is still there. And it is tied into what the price of the sold car is.

Looking at the $100.00 fee, I don't know if there was serious thinking put to it or if it was a number pulled out of a hat. But from a business view, there is time involved in doing this. It probably falls under nuisance. But somebody at LW needs to handle this and the tick tock certainly stacks up quickly. And it's not as if Lightwave is such a huge company that they have some huge licensing dept. Someone - who was probably doing some other task - now has to take care of this transfer action. Does it cost Lightwave $100.00 in time and function? Possibly not, but you might be surprised in what it would actually cost. The last company I worked for would try to balance out costs for returns. For them this fell under a customer service banner. If the customer bought "A" and thought what they got was not exactly "A" (in this case fabrics) sometimes a replacement would be shipped out and the customer got to keep the original because the return would be too expensive. It was the combination of the return shipping and the time and effort of doing the paperwork once it got back. It simply cost too much to return certain things.
Okay, so LW isn't going to give away stuff like my last company did. But they do need to account for the time taken. In this case it may only be Lightwave's way of saying - Please think twice before doing.

hrgiger
07-29-2014, 02:28 AM
The average used price of a modo license is significantly higher than that of a used LW license, as well, so $100 is a smaller percentage of the total modo used license cost.

I didn't realize that such figures were available anywhere, except maybe by speculation. But still ridiculous that if you don't upgrade your Modo license that it eventually becomes impossible to sell. Another change brought on by The Foundry who seems to be exceptionally less customer driven then Luxology ever was.

Wade
07-29-2014, 05:03 PM
Just I thought. But if 11.7 or 12 is a really big release and a lot of people want in on the program then they should charge something as a lot of work has gone into this next release.
It could very well be LW 12 is all that and more so picking up a "used" copy for 250.00 and getting all the service of an owner would be a steal the then some. I could be in 3 months folks will be bemoaning the fact that they could have gotten a copy of lightwave for 250.00 bucks as the back log of "used" copies dries up and the price for second hand copies doubles or triples.

It could very well happen that Lightwave 12 offers such improvements and added features that there will be an substantial ground swell of newcomers and why pay for a new copy 1495.00 or whatever when you can spend 250 + an upgrade of 450.00 or whatever. I plan on keeping my copies of LW and using them so the transfer fee does me no harm. Should I need another seat well 100.00 bucks will not make or break a purchase.

Newtek - should be able to cover some of the expense or transfer and customer help. 100.00 bucks does not buy an hour of my time when I am doing what I do best. :) Newtek should be able to cover the Tech support and transfer with a small fee. my .02

saranine
07-29-2014, 06:53 PM
Make it an automated process. Then V Sauce can work out a charge per electron used.

djwaterman
07-29-2014, 08:52 PM
Since this thread is still continuing I thought I'd add my voice to the side that don't consider it a big issue.

dulo
07-30-2014, 05:56 AM
You are right. It does not really matter, but it generates quite some bad for for no real benefit for newtek. I dont think they will earn relevant money through this step ..

Thomas Helzle
07-30-2014, 11:14 AM
Well, I found the email simply odd.
In a time when the perceived value of a Lightwave license is at it's lowest, since we don't know yet if there will be a 12 to bind them all or not, it feels like a random act out of nowhere.
Well, if it helps, more power to you...

Some days before I got a mail from Autodesk informing me, that they no longer offer updates at all.
Which is funny since the only product from them I had was Softimage, which got dumped anyway.

Adobe still tries to sell me on CC - let's see if that will ever happen...

Apple just threw Aperture to the fishes...

So what do we have: A softwaremarket still remembering it's hay-day when licenses were really big money and customers actually paid that kind of money and made it back in return. Then things were going downhill. If you have a monopoly, you can try to still sustain it simply because everybody needs to have Maya or Max. If you have a really good application that is forwardlooking and modern, you may find people thinking it's actually worth something.
Or you are Newtek.
Old code, old GUI, old workflow, old crowd of users lost in daydreams...
Hanging on your toenails trying to get it back up to par.
Repeating "award winning" until the word-counter is getting blurry...

Somehow I no longer really care.
Nailing my Shave-And-A-Haircut Dongle, two Softimage XSI Dongles and some other such trophys over the fireplace somehow doesn't cut it...
Bearheads or Antlers would much more impressive.

But it was fun as long as it lasted ;-)

Cheers,

Tom

jasonwestmas
07-30-2014, 05:54 PM
funny you say Cheers. I guess there is more to life than software. :)

Oedo 808
07-31-2014, 03:08 AM
Bearheads or Antlers would much more impressive.

Or maybe even beararms, if you're American.

John Jordan
08-11-2014, 08:29 PM
"IMO, this isn't very 'NewTek-like'."

I miss the 90s.

John Jordan
08-11-2014, 08:39 PM
could be they are trying to change the second hand market for Lightwave..maybe second hand sale pricing of Lightwave are hurting new sales of lightwave?
if second hand sales of 11 are going cheap then just buy a second hand seat at cheap price.

This IS pretty cheap. http://www.ebay.com/itm/281398809409?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649