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Chrusion
07-10-2014, 08:40 AM
The new LW 11 color picker is being touted as the best color picker in the world of 3D. Well, I beg to differ. It's lacking a key visual adjustment... VALUE!

That is, it's PERFECT for selecting saturated colors, but VERY limited in selecting VALUE ranges (0-black to 255-white). The ONLY way to create pale (high value) hues is to drag your cursor to the very top of the narrow vertical gradient strip between the square color mixer and hue ring. And similarly for dark values by dragging cursor to the bottom of that strip. HOWEVER, once you've selected a hue by dragging around on the mixer, vertical strip, and/or ring, there's NO visual means to vary that selected hue lighter or darker. You can only to so by dragging the Value gizmo right/left or entering in a number in to that field... not very interactive or productive.

Am I missing something? Is there a way to turn that vertical gradient Hue strip into a gradient Value strip OR display the full value range (white to black) of the currently displayed range of hues in the mixer square?

It's really counter intuitive the way it displays a limited range of values (and thus saturations) for the range of hues it displays centered on the hue ring's primary node.

The full-range display that CC_Color_Picker has (white at top, black at bottom, full hue range left to right) is my idea of perfection... just lacks the nice matching UI interface and better options of the Lightwave picker.

zapper1998
07-10-2014, 09:41 AM
I still use Picky..

jeric_synergy
07-10-2014, 10:08 AM
Hmmmm, when you RIGHT-DRAG on a LW swatch, it varies the value. Does that work?

Now, please tell me there's a hotkey to make the color picker GO AWAY! Hate being forced to click Cancel. meh. :grumpy:

Hail
07-11-2014, 10:13 AM
The new LW 11 color picker is being touted as the best color picker in the world of 3D. Well, I beg to differ. It's lacking a key visual adjustment... VALUE!

That is, it's PERFECT for selecting saturated colors, but VERY limited in selecting VALUE ranges (0-black to 255-white). The ONLY way to create pale (high value) hues is to drag your cursor to the very top of the narrow vertical gradient strip between the square color mixer and hue ring. And similarly for dark values by dragging cursor to the bottom of that strip. HOWEVER, once you've selected a hue by dragging around on the mixer, vertical strip, and/or ring, there's NO visual means to vary that selected hue lighter or darker. You can only to so by dragging the Value gizmo right/left or entering in a number in to that field... not very interactive or productive.

Am I missing something? Is there a way to turn that vertical gradient Hue strip into a gradient Value strip OR display the full value range (white to black) of the currently displayed range of hues in the mixer square?

It's really counter intuitive the way it displays a limited range of values (and thus saturations) for the range of hues it displays centered on the hue ring's primary node.

The full-range display that CC_Color_Picker has (white at top, black at bottom, full hue range left to right) is my idea of perfection... just lacks the nice matching UI interface and better options of the Lightwave picker.

Bummer!
Just discovered that too which makes it worthless to me, I'm back to using the windows picker:(

jeric_synergy
07-11-2014, 10:39 AM
Why is dragging on the values slider so onerous? For me, that's the most controllable way of adjusting the value.

Chrusion
07-11-2014, 09:56 PM
Why is dragging on the values slider so onerous? Because it only changes the current swatch, NOT the hues in the mixer, which sort of defeats the purpose of this being the best color picker around. This would be a perfect paint MIXER if ALL hues were visible and available, or portion of the hue spectrum thereof from lightest values to darkest values, at a glance.

spherical
07-12-2014, 01:02 AM
Because it only changes the current swatch, NOT the hues in the mixer, which sort of defeats the purpose of this being the best color picker around.

Maybe I'm not understanding your terminology but when I slide the Value the "Mixer" (if we're talking about the same thing) changes, not just the swatch alone.

What it interesting is that the Jovian plugin works differently; perhaps more like you are expecting. Unsure why it was changed.

djwaterman
07-12-2014, 01:32 AM
This is how I use it for basic colors, is this what you mean't?

122968

jeric_synergy
07-12-2014, 01:38 AM
Because it only changes the current swatch, NOT the hues in the mixer, which sort of defeats the purpose of this being the best color picker around.
I continue to be confused, I apologize, BUT wonder: have you tried highlighting the VALUE (selecting) button? All those buttons (RGB, HSV) appear to be LOCKS: when I select VALUE it turns blue, and when I adjust it the mixing area entirely changes color.
122971

Chrusion
07-12-2014, 02:38 PM
This is how I use it for basic colors, is this what you mean't?

122968
This is how MY color picker opens up. Notice the defaults... same as yours, BUT mine doesn't display the white to black range of a SINGLE HUE like your's does. And I don't see any options to change it so the vertical bar displays the full rainbow range of hues. Mine displays some sort of a narrow, arbitrary subset.

122976

Chrusion
07-12-2014, 02:42 PM
have you tried highlighting the VALUE (selecting) button? All those buttons (RGB, HSV) appear to be LOCKS: when I select VALUE it turns blue, and when I adjust it the mixing area entirely changes color.
122971

THAT WAS IT, Jeric!

I thought those were just labels, NOT buttons! THANKS!

OK, we can disregard this thread now... user error... of course!

jeric_synergy
07-12-2014, 03:22 PM
THAT WAS IT, Jeric!

I thought those were just labels, NOT buttons! THANKS!
It's that SOLID divider line that was misleading you.

I don't know if it's covered in the dox or not, but here's a design tip, programmers: in the users' minds, a SOLID line implies a separation of function. That indicated solid line implies to the user that the buttons below the mixing/palette (what's that thing called?) don't have much connection to the stuff above it, which is obviously not true at all, there's a world of functionality between those buttons and the color mixer (I'm going with that).

If there were an easy way to indicate more strongly they are BUTTONS (fainter shade on "off" button text), I'd recommend that-- right now they look 'way too much like labels-- Chrusion was not alone in his/her misunderstanding until I let the monkey loose in the panel.

Attached revision (did a crap job of darkening the text, but hey, I'm not gettin' paid to do LW3dG's design):
122978

Chrusion
07-12-2014, 04:51 PM
Jeric,

chrusion = Dean Scott.

It's not so much the line (but I'm sure it played a subconscious role) that caused the confusion, but the lack of identifying them as anything other than field labels and not buttons. The only way to make them stand out as interactive objects is to make them clearly radio buttons (empty holes/dots in which only one can be activated or "filled in" at a time), since that is exactly how they currently operate. Empty/filled hole/dot has been clearly establish from the BEGINNING of web/interactive time as the universal UI design standard... not flat rectangles filled with text.

The current implementation of radio buttons in the LW UI as flat rectangles filled with text (and in this case such rectangles somewhat blending in with their surrounding background) leaves a lot to be desired in terms of visual "activation" / "deactivation," leading to misdirection and confusion of function. Simply designing/adding a standard UI radio button class (empty or filled circles/holes/dots) would eliminate these identification problems, yes?

jeric_synergy
07-12-2014, 04:57 PM
Radio buttons would indeed make that abundantly clear.

At some point NewTek lowered the differentiation between "pressed" and "unpressed" of the radio buttons color highlighting. That may have been a mistake. :cough: I'm pretty sure the standard radio button implementation (i.e. dots) is also available in the UI kit.

And: subconscious guides are very powerful. The smallest speedbump can confuse/mislead users. There's no REASON for that line to be there, and as the quote goes, "You're thru designing when there's nothing left to take away."

Personally, I think I would have put those fields ABOVE the mixer-- LWers are used to window-y controls being at the TOP of windows.


++++
SIDE NOTE: is there a PShop brush blending mode that would allow one to easily paint the light button text a darker shade???

Chrusion
07-12-2014, 05:27 PM
is there a PShop brush blending mode that would allow one to easily paint the light button text a darker shade???

Yes! Darken. Color pick your brush to the background color of the item in the pix, then adjust value to lighten it a bit. Paint over LIGHTER colored items and they will darken down to the adjusted color/value of the brush without affecting the background since it is darker than the brush. You can easily change the color/tint of lighter text on dark bg by keeping the brush paint value the same (the B %) and changing only the hue.

Chrusion
07-12-2014, 05:34 PM
Personally, I think I would have put those fields ABOVE the mixer-- LWers are used to window-y controls being at the TOP of windows. Along with maybe a descriptor such as "Mixer Mode: "

spherical
07-12-2014, 11:00 PM
Well, to be fair, they DO change color when selected; at least the way I have my button colors set up. It would help, however, to add up/down shadow attributes to buttons that are selected/unselected to further cement the idea that it isn't merely a label.

jeric_synergy
07-12-2014, 11:10 PM
Well, to be fair, they DO change color when selected; at least the way I have my button colors set up. It would help, however, to add up/down shadow attributes to buttons that are selected/unselected to further cement the idea that it isn't merely a label.
They USED to, that's what I'm saying. Then they went all understated and elegant on us.

BTW, I h8 the Mac interface for just that reason.

tonyrizo2003
07-13-2014, 12:49 AM
hmmm... I found this on youtube, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32Lm6Iy665I I did not even know about the color mixer or the other options the picker has! Now I think it would be cool if you could take a swatch from say Adobe Kuler and bring it into LW Color library. I can see how that would be very useful.

Well shut my mouth!!

I should have checked the forum for other color libraries. Check this link out and download the extra color libraries, I am not sure if they are included in LW 11.6 or not? http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?95677-Jovian-Color-Picker

madno
07-13-2014, 12:55 AM
Thanks for bringing this up. I also thought there is no value slider.
The main reason for not noticing that those lable wannabes are radio buttons is that no one was active when I started the picker the first time. Technically there must have been one selected in the background but the UI did not show it. This is a good example of how a sloppy implementation can completely change the user's perception of a tool. I read something like "the best color picker in 3D" and then thought, "what, no value slider?". My impression was "well, rather the worst color picker in 3D".

On the other hand, sometimes one should read the manual (frankly speaking, I did it right now) to learn "yes, it is a good color picker".

122997

spherical
07-13-2014, 02:41 AM
Wouldn't actually think that no buttons could be selected; there has to be some mode to be in or nothing works. Overlooked, perhaps, mostly because it isn't all that evident that is what they are. Difficult to go back and certify.

jeric_synergy
07-13-2014, 09:30 AM
The main reason for not noticing that those lable wannabes are radio buttons is that no one was active when I started the picker the first time. Technically there must have been one selected in the background but the UI did not show it. This is a good example of how a sloppy implementation can completely change the user's perception of a tool. I read something like "the best color picker in 3D" and then thought, "what, no value slider?". My impression was "well, rather the worst color picker in 3D".

If this is replicable , it's a HUGE bug. --But IMO, the design is still too subtle in its "selected/unselected" color choices. It's very easy to miss the (on my system) default RED button being on. And that horizontal pointless misleading rule has got to go, that's just awful.


Wouldn't actually think that no buttons could be selected; there has to be some mode to be in or nothing works. Overlooked, perhaps, mostly because it isn't all that evident that is what they are. Difficult to go back and certify.
There are several places in LW, usually in LISTS, that SHOULD always have a minimum of one active item, and that don't. For example, it's easy to have zero active items in the Surface Editor list. This is poor design, it either:

shouldn't be possible, or;
should grey-out the SE interface in a conspicuous manner if zero elements are selected.

I try to report these as they come up. In general they get squashed pretty fast, IOW it's an easy fix once the devs hear about it. But they got to be reported, so do your part!!!