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Tony3d
07-09-2014, 08:31 AM
Hi Again, Just started to model my Mac Pro using Subpatch modeling as I continue me learning. Before I go to far, I just want to know how this looks. Trying to keep it as I clean as I know how. Will make the inside section next as a separate object. Am I on the right track?

Tony3d
07-09-2014, 09:24 AM
OK, HERE IS WHERE I REALLY NEED HELP. If I put my cuts in for the CD Drawers, when I go to sub patch, they don't line up. This I don't understand. Can someone show me how to put these in?

hrgiger
07-09-2014, 09:37 AM
Place an additional cut above and below the cuts you made and it will. What you have to understand about subpatching is that it is smoothing the mesh between all vertices. The further apart your lines are, the more smoothing (or mesh interpolation) that will happen. The closer your edges are together, the tighter the area will be.

Tony3d
07-09-2014, 10:18 AM
Place an additional cut above and below the cuts you made and it will. What you have to understand about subpatching is that it is smoothing the mesh between all vertices. The further apart your lines are, the more smoothing (or mesh interpolation) that will happen. The closer your edges are together, the tighter the area will be.

Thanks. Just figured it out. Tightened up the edges as well.

TwoCoins
07-09-2014, 12:11 PM
Bandsaw, multishift, and extend can be your best friends. With bandsaw you can make cuts from 1%-99% the size of your polygon. This lets youget crazy Close to your edge and make them crazy sharp while keeping your cuts straight. They will still catch the light Right. Be careful With really close cuts when you go to merge points though, or you could end up with mess. Cool model. Keep posting updates.

Tony3d
07-09-2014, 12:36 PM
Ok, once again I'm stuck. I wanted to just punch out a rectangle hole with very sharp edges, recess it into the front panel, and build the port panel separate from he main model, but I can't seem to do it. Can't make any vertical cuts, or my mesh distorts up by the CD Drawers! Can someone explain to me how I can get an almost square cornered rectangle recessed into this front panel. I can upload the model if necessary. I'm really over this sub patch stuff. I can't even seem to figure out how to put in the door seam. I can't boolean it in. When I used thickener to get the case thickness, I gave it 6 segments. I think I've had it with sub patching.

Surrealist.
07-09-2014, 01:35 PM
Don't cut it in. Take that and model it in another layer using the configurations I showed you before.

Inside corners get a tight edge loop. Outside corner gets the cross hatch edge (see my tut or images in other thread) Other detail gets edge loops.

Add all of the detail you want inside it using all of these same configs and then delete enough polygons in your model to make a hole where you will then patch this all in. Since it is all flat you can get away with some nasty step down tricks to keep it all quads.

It is a frustrating exercise to keep working this model all as one piece. Work in small sections of detail first and then patch them in.

Tony3d
07-09-2014, 02:13 PM
So there is no way to save this model then?

JoePoe
07-09-2014, 02:30 PM
Sure it can be saved. :)

I'm more concerned with the holes.... THE HOLES MAN! Whadaya gonna do about the HOLES????!!! :D

I've done this object (well, part of it) and those holes nearly killed me. :2guns:

Tony3d
07-09-2014, 02:38 PM
Sure it can be saved. :)

I'm more concerned with the holes.... THE HOLES MAN! Whadaya gonna do about the HOLES????!!! :D

I've done this object (well, part of it) and those holes nearly killed me. :2guns:

I was just going to use a texture map with transparency, like I did with the radio. I have no idea how to fix this, and I'm really tired. I need someone sitting here to show me this sub patch stuff, or I can forget it! I could have modeled this whole thing my old way in no time. I have spent all day on this, and have gotten pretty much nowhere! I mean I can't even figure out how to put the door seam in! My brain hurts!

XswampyX
07-09-2014, 03:21 PM
Have a look at other peoples models, there are loads of them out there.

From Turbosquid....

http://i465.photobucket.com/albums/rr16/xXswampyXx/macpro_full__zps6ace73dc.jpg (http://s465.photobucket.com/user/xXswampyXx/media/macpro_full__zps6ace73dc.jpg.html)

JoePoe
07-09-2014, 03:43 PM
Transparency or clip map is a smart choice.

Why don't you throw up your lwo anyway. Maybe people will chip away at it here and there.

As for your comment:


I could have modeled this whole thing my old way in no time.

I'm sure you could have. In fact that method is probably just as appropriate for this object. When I did it I used polygonal modeling for the front face and SubD for the plugs and outer case (for the curved handles). There is nothing wrong with polygonal modeling and even mixing the two techniques in one model. This was my Mac Pro 122885 and the wires 122886. You can see only the plugs are SubD here.

But I digress. The point isn't whether or not you can do this object faster your usual way. The point is what happens when you come across an object where you're really knocking your head against a wall polygonally and SubD can make short work of it. Remember this.... Contour Problem (http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?142104-Contour-problem)? Well that's a good example.... once you get this stuff under your belt u can subD that sucker in a jiffy. 122887

jeric_synergy
07-10-2014, 01:34 AM
Outside corner gets the cross hatch edge (see my tut or images in other thread)
Hey Surrealist: now that I've seen "3-5 Fix", I'm wondering if there's a way to automate the creation of your favored cross hatch corner treatment?

That's, IMO, one of the most laborious/tedious/frustrating parts of subd modeling.

If the user can pick a particular bit of mesh, that could reduce the complexity of the algorithm.

djwaterman
07-10-2014, 03:24 AM
I think I've had it with sub patching.

Ha ha, yes, you should walk away. Put it aside, go back to tho old ways, because the same devil that's telling you to give up will pop up again later and tell you to have another go at it, you can't go back now Tony, even if you wanted to.

Tony3d
07-10-2014, 05:53 AM
OK, here is the model. Can someone just give me an ideas how to put in the door seams, and small panel in front. The object has two meshes right now. It doesn't look bad at this point, I just don't understand how to put these things in without effecting the CD drawers. Tried booleaning in the door seams, and don't understand how to fixup the mesh after the boolean. At this point everything is all quads. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.

Surrealist.
07-10-2014, 06:11 AM
So there is no way to save this model then?

Yeah, save it in a background layer and model the details then patch them in.

Sorry if that was not clear.

Tony3d
07-10-2014, 06:25 AM
Yeah, save it in a background layer and model the details then patch them in.

Sorry if that was not clear.

HI, I'm sorry but I'm so new to this, I don't understand how to patch them in. Can you show me an example? I think I jumped in way to fast, and don't understand things like patching in. That would really help. Does the model look ok so far? I'm confused as to how you boolean something in like the door seams for instance. Once you run a boolean you no longer have quads, and I don't understand how to fix that.

Tony3d
07-10-2014, 06:33 AM
Transparency or clip map is a smart choice.

Why don't you throw up your lwo anyway. Maybe people will chip away at it here and there.

As for your comment:



I'm sure you could have. In fact that method is probably just as appropriate for this object. When I did it I used polygonal modeling for the front face and SubD for the plugs and outer case (for the curved handles). There is nothing wrong with polygonal modeling and even mixing the two techniques in one model. This was my Mac Pro 122885 and the wires 122886. You can see only the plugs are SubD here.

But I digress. The point isn't whether or not you can do this object faster your usual way. The point is what happens when you come across an object where you're really knocking your head against a wall polygonally and SubD can make short work of it. Remember this.... Contour Problem (http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?142104-Contour-problem)? Well that's a good example.... once you get this stuff under your belt u can subD that sucker in a jiffy. 122887

That panel looks beautiful! Hoe did you put in the details on the power button?

JoePoe
07-10-2014, 10:17 AM
Hoe did you put in the details on the power button?

Thanks. Crazily I modeled in the detail when a normal map would have been fine. 122904

And for the surface, I kinda took the lazy way out. Instead of an anisotropic shader I just threw on an image map. :hat:

Surrealist.
07-10-2014, 10:49 AM
HI, I'm sorry but I'm so new to this, I don't understand how to patch them in. Can you show me an example? I think I jumped in way to fast, and don't understand things like patching in. That would really help. Does the model look ok so far? I'm confused as to how you boolean something in like the door seams for instance. Once you run a boolean you no longer have quads, and I don't understand how to fix that.

First turn subD off and leave it off. If you don't already, leave it off until you are done editing.

Then this is how I work:

I first cut out the place where I want to put the detail (blue)

(or leave it undone usually)

122905

The white piece is the detail. In this case that hole in your speaker from before. But it can be any shape.

Then you simply start to connect polygons. Like this.

122906

Ye old p tool to make polygon. Add edges to create them where you need them etc. Or knife tool, bandsaw etc.

so that eventually you have something like this:

122907

Several more examples here:

http://www.lightwiki.com/wiki/Fundamentals_of_Subpatch_Modeling_Part_Four

And here:

http://www.lightwiki.com/wiki/Fundamentals_of_Subpatch_Modeling_Part_Five

Same concept.

If you are still struggling I would suggest cut back your approach to something more basic and do all of those examples on my site.

There is a reason I made the examples I did. Even though some people complain it is not more complex.

The reason is it is, never more complex than the examples on those two pages.

Pretty much ever. It is all just repeat of the same things over and over. That's it.

And I have modeled a ton of really complex shapes. And never to I have to vary from those simple configurations.

If you want to then graduate to more complex shapes - after you master the basic primitives and so on - then tackle something more heavy.

At the end of my tutorial I do that hammer and it is all about using Boolean and all of the techniques to apply them to something more complex.

Tony3d
07-10-2014, 01:07 PM
First turn subD off and leave it off. If you don't already, leave it off until you are done editing.

Then this is how I work:

I first cut out the place where I want to put the detail (blue)

(or leave it undone usually)

122905

The white piece is the detail. In this case that hole in your speaker from before. But it can be any shape.

Then you simply start to connect polygons. Like this.

122906

Ye old p tool to make polygon. Add edges to create them where you need them etc. Or knife tool, bandsaw etc.

so that eventually you have something like this:

122907

Several more examples here:

http://www.lightwiki.com/wiki/Fundamentals_of_Subpatch_Modeling_Part_Four

And here:

http://www.lightwiki.com/wiki/Fundamentals_of_Subpatch_Modeling_Part_Five

Same concept.

If you are still struggling I would suggest cut back your approach to something more basic and do all of those examples on my site.

There is a reason I made the examples I did. Even though some people complain it is not more complex.

The reason is it is, never more complex than the examples on those two pages.

Pretty much ever. It is all just repeat of the same things over and over. That's it.

And I have modeled a ton of really complex shapes. And never to I have to vary from those simple configurations.

If you want to then graduate to more complex shapes - after you master the basic primitives and so on - then tackle something more heavy.

At the end of my tutorial I do that hammer and it is all about using Boolean and all of the techniques to apply them to something more complex.

Holy crap! It took alms 3 hours, but did this much of the panel, and I patched the square USB Hole in by using your technique. Man that's hard, but I see how it's done now. Thanks.

Tony3d
07-10-2014, 04:29 PM
Ok, All the square holes where patched into the panel after I put in the LED, Power Button, and Headphone jack. Like a dummy, I didn't put a radius on the corners of the boxes before I stenciled them in. So I had to deal with that as well. Now that I kinda know how to patch shapes in I may do better. Not perfect, but I learned a whole new thing today. Thanks. Surrealist! Now I just have to figure out how to patch this panel into my Mac Pro model.

jeric_synergy
07-10-2014, 05:26 PM
Here's an illustration of a couple tools Tony might find useful:

Middle EDGE selected on two faces of this cube:

line with missing polys was created with DEdgeBevel -- a bit annoying, making those holes,;
The one with the inset was BorderSlice in the EdgePack tools (now native to 11.6)


Also useful is BorderSliceQuad, try 'em all!
122918

(I was actually looking for "EdgeBevel", but I don't see it in my distro....)(It was always kind of awful anyway....)

JoePoe
07-10-2014, 07:40 PM
Good job Tony. I think you're starting to get a feel for it.

Just a pic here to show ya that it doesn't necessarily have to be quite so "elaborate". :)
122935

Tony3d
07-10-2014, 10:23 PM
Good job Tony. I think you're starting to get a feel for it.

Just a pic here to show ya that it doesn't necessarily have to be quite so "elaborate". :)
122935

Thanks Joe. How did you actually put that detail on the power button. Did you Boolean it in? That's what I'm having the most trouble with is figuring out how this kind of detail gets added.

JoePoe
07-10-2014, 10:37 PM
Good ol' Multishift :thumbsup:..... 122942

Tony3d
07-10-2014, 11:04 PM
Good ol' Multishift :thumbsup:..... 122942

Ok. Thanks. I think I'm beginning to understand this better. Did you find any really good tutorials. I think tomorrow I will the video tutorials on Pixel poly. They seem like their probably worth $24.00.

jeric_synergy
07-10-2014, 11:27 PM
BTW, here's what you get with BORDER SLICE:
Selection, Border Slice, 3-5 Fix, Subpatch (Tab):
122943

....which leads to...
122944

Surrealist.
07-11-2014, 05:13 AM
Ok, All the square holes where patched into the panel after I put in the LED, Power Button, and Headphone jack. Like a dummy, I didn't put a radius on the corners of the boxes before I stenciled them in. So I had to deal with that as well. Now that I kinda know how to patch shapes in I may do better. Not perfect, but I learned a whole new thing today. Thanks. Surrealist! Now I just have to figure out how to patch this panel into my Mac Pro model.

Yeah you are definitely getting it now.

Patching it is is the same technique. If you are planning more detail like holes in the panel I would do those first and then patch it all together.

After doing it a few times you'll get the hang of making it go faster and cleaner and find the quicker shortcuts to things.

Tony3d
07-11-2014, 06:02 AM
Thanks Richard! I have another problem I just can't figure out.How would you go about modeling in the door seams. I tried booleaning them in, but then I have no ides how patch flat surfaces that are left. Any advice on that? My model was uploaded further up the thread if you want to have a go at it. I really appreciate all the help you people have been giving me! What a great community we have here.

JoePoe
07-11-2014, 08:07 AM
Add some control loops close together and you've got your seam (or separate door with close tolerance).

I'v given you an example in layers 3 & 4.

The only small problem I saw was... on your original the horizontal cuts weren't exactly flat. So I stretched them flat first before adding more.

jeric_synergy
07-11-2014, 08:49 AM
back in the day, for a seam on a slightly curved surface like a car hood, people would use Smooth Shift.

To fill in large areas, you could use Spline Patching. I'm playing about with QuadSkinPatcher too.....

Surrealist.
07-11-2014, 09:14 AM
Thanks Richard! I have another problem I just can't figure out.How would you go about modeling in the door seams. I tried booleaning them in, but then I have no ides how patch flat surfaces that are left. Any advice on that? My model was uploaded further up the thread if you want to have a go at it. I really appreciate all the help you people have been giving me! What a great community we have here.

For that kind of thing ( and panels on cars and so on) I always model them as they are in the real world which is to simply make it a door or separate panel piece etc. So what you are creating in this case is a box shape with sharp corners. Then do the same for the top and bottom. Extrude them in giving the thickness. And the natural space you get between them is your seam.

djwaterman
07-11-2014, 10:29 AM
It's not a hard and fast rule, because it can be used I guess, but I'd start to eliminate the use of the boolean tool when doing sub-D modeling.

Surrealist.
07-11-2014, 12:21 PM
It's not a hard and fast rule, because it can be used I guess, but I'd start to eliminate the use of the boolean tool when doing sub-D modeling.

I use it, maybe not a lot but there are places where it comes in handy.

It is a great tool. And if it is something you like using I'd say use it liberally.

I don't think of SubD modeling as some other technology of modeling that requires some new technique that I can not use certain tools with. It is just polygon modeling. I use all of the tools at my disposal.

The only important thing to know about SubD modeling in my opinion is what polyflow you want to wind up with where. Once you learn that. (It takes about 15 minutes). The rest of it is just like solving a puzzle or working out the details of better ways to get there faster and cleaner. That comes with time and practice.

But I hardly ever even turn on subpatches, save to check things every now and then out of habit. But really the only thing I put my mind to is getting to the final poly flow more directly. And in the case of Boolean, used to get cuts in shapes you can not otherwise get easily.

That's my 2C

Tony3d
07-11-2014, 05:32 PM
OK, Here is the panel The inside details were modeled in sub patch, all quads and added to the subD panel. Now all I have to do is patch ion my Mac Pro model. That should be fun.

Surrealist.
07-11-2014, 08:38 PM
nice!

djwaterman
07-12-2014, 01:15 AM
I use it, maybe not a lot but there are places where it comes in handy.

It is a great tool. And if it is something you like using I'd say use it liberally.

I don't think of SubD modeling as some other technology of modeling that requires some new technique that I can not use certain tools with. It is just polygon modeling. I use all of the tools at my disposal.

The only important thing to know about SubD modeling in my opinion is what polyflow you want to wind up with where. Once you learn that. (It takes about 15 minutes). The rest of it is just like solving a puzzle or working out the details of better ways to get there faster and cleaner. That comes with time and practice.

But I hardly ever even turn on subpatches, save to check things every now and then out of habit. But really the only thing I put my mind to is getting to the final poly flow more directly. And in the case of Boolean, used to get cuts in shapes you can not otherwise get easily.

That's my 2C

Yeah, once you know why you're using it it can be useful, but while learning what good polyflow is and how sub-d works it is probably best avoided, it was simply that Tony had mentioned a few time that he had tried to boolean something in and it made a mess of things. Anyway he's well on the way.

Tony3d
07-12-2014, 06:22 AM
Thanks guys. This has been a real journey this past 10 days. I think it's finally just beginning to click. Maybe I have tried to take on objects a bit to complicated to start with. May go back to very simple objects to learn with. But I will try to finish this Mac Pro first. I will patch in this panel, make the door seams, and put in the holes with a transparency map. Hopefully be done sometime next week. Your help has been truly outstanding. I would have never thought I could do this just 2 weeks ago. My meshes aren't perfect, but they are so much more efficient than what I have been doing. With my mesh counts being so low, it's like I have a new computer when I manipulate them in modeler!

Surrealist.
07-13-2014, 03:01 AM
Yeah, once you know why you're using it it can be useful, but while learning what good polyflow is and how sub-d works it is probably best avoided, it was simply that Tony had mentioned a few time that he had tried to boolean something in and it made a mess of things. Anyway he's well on the way.

I teach Boolean ops at the very basic level. For the main reason that they are useful. And second because they help to dispel the myth that the mesh must be somehow special. It is just a polymesh. And I feel you need to get your head around creating polyflow from the start and not rely on the tools that sort of "do it for you" and definitely do not avoid tools that create ngons. Creating polyflow should be a conscious directive.

Learning when to use a Boolean is no different than learning when to use any of the tools. They all can create problems. All different problems, but only when a modeler does not first understand polyflow. And that can and should be learned in 15 minutes before doing anything with SUbD.

djwaterman
07-13-2014, 07:36 AM
Not a myth, the mesh does need to be special to work in Sub-D mode, which is why people find them scary at first, and some modelers don't even go there. I think also polyflow takes a while to sink in, the best way to learn it is to do it and make a lot of mistakes, and always ask if there's a better way, which by the way is where a guide like your's can come in handy as you seem to have covered pretty much every kind of flow that pops up.

You did mention some tools that sort of do it for you, what are those? Do you mean in LW or other programs?

Surrealist.
07-14-2014, 12:20 AM
Yeah I think we are on the same page in principle.

I just try to get people to see it as only a mesh and not a special case just because of the requirements and thus dispel the many "myths" around it. There is a lot that could be said about that and the history behind it as a tech and experiences learning as well as training people over the last 10 years. But it would take a tome.

And to the last point I mean mainly out of trepidation sticking only with the tools that automatically keep the mesh in quads and loops. All apps have various versions of extrusion and edge looping.

My main point. Don't be afraid to make hash of the mesh. Just take time to learn the polyflow first. And then dig in. And very definitely agreed. Do it a lot.

And remember that a lot of people have done this before and you can save a lot of time by training in it first.

Those are my main points I think.

Tony3d
07-14-2014, 12:10 PM
OK, I patched in the Power panel to the rest of the model. Now, I just need to put in the holes with a transparency map, and a couple logo's. What do you think so far. I know the patch job is a bit shoddy, But it works.

Surrealist.
07-14-2014, 11:23 PM
Yeah, looking good.

There are a few polyflow - clean up type - issues you could address on the front panel.

I am not sure of the source of the many horizontal lines in the center. A close up image would help.

But in any case you can at the very least step them down with the guide in my tut or Jeffry's guide linked in the other thread which is far more complete.

Or you can redirect them at the source, but I'd have to see a clean shot of it to advise more.

On the top (and bottom) of the frame I can see some issues at first glance around the area of the handle. If you were to show a few angles of the top with SubD turned off I can explain more clearly.

Tony3d
07-15-2014, 09:08 AM
Hi Richard! I will put up some more wireframes latter today. Thanks for he help.

Tony3d
07-16-2014, 07:49 AM
Yeah, looking good.

There are a few polyflow - clean up type - issues you could address on the front panel.

I am not sure of the source of the many horizontal lines in the center. A close up image would help.

But in any case you can at the very least step them down with the guide in my tut or Jeffry's guide linked in the other thread which is far more complete.

Or you can redirect them at the source, but I'd have to see a clean shot of it to advise more.

On the top (and bottom) of the frame I can see some issues at first glance around the area of the handle. If you were to show a few angles of the top with SubD turned off I can explain more clearly.
Ok, I'm pretty much done with this to the best of my ability. Does this wireframe closeup help?

JoePoe
07-16-2014, 04:55 PM
Nice!

Did you still want to have a look at these?

FYI they were done for a speed challenge (I don't think I made it in time.... those damn holes :D)... :jam:

Tony3d
07-17-2014, 07:20 AM
Nice!

Did you still want to have a look at these?

FYI they were done for a speed challenge (I don't think I made it in time.... those damn holes :D)... :jam:
Hi joe, thanks but those aren't the plugs I'm referring to. I had sent you an image of part of a plug, and you had subpatched it. It's somewhere in one of my recent threads. I'll try, and find it. You probably patched in the shape the way I did with my Mac's front panel.

JoePoe
07-17-2014, 08:32 AM
...but those aren't the plugs I'm referring to. I had sent you an image of part of a plug, and you had subpatched it. It's somewhere in one of my recent threads. I'll try, and find it. You probably patched in the shape the way I did with my Mac's front panel.

Do you mean the third image in post#12 (page 1) of this thread?
It does show the wires.... They're a little light, but there. Could use a couple more cross cuts around the width of the body for the sake of uniformity and a nice even distribution.

Tony3d
07-17-2014, 09:23 AM
Do you mean the third image in post#12 (page 1) of this thread?
It does show the wires.... They're a little light, but there. Could use a couple more cross cuts around the width of the body for the sake of uniformity and a nice even distribution.

Yes, that's it! How did you get that elipse in there?

JoePoe
07-17-2014, 10:24 AM
Yes, that's it! How did you get that elipse in there?

1) simple SubD box with control loops and center edges. Select these edges 123082 (you can see I've prepped the edges a bit. You'll see why when you do it. But you can fine tune afterward)
2) Run Edge Bevel 123083
3) select these edges 123084
4) Press "l" to connect. 123085
5) Depending on how tight/loose your original control loops are you might want to push some points. I just brought the top middle points back and the front middle points down for a nicer curve (and separated them a bit), and normal moved the central point of the scoop in just a touch. 123086

Tony3d
07-17-2014, 12:49 PM
Thanks Joe!

Surrealist.
07-19-2014, 06:35 AM
Sorry been swamped at work. But I did dl the file you uploaded and had a look. I could really break the thing down for you if I had the time. The render works. But technically as a model, if you are trying to master this there are a few bad habits you will want to break. Joe Poe did a great illustration.

I would strongly recommend doing my tutorial straight through and get a good grasp on the fundamentals. They all apply to about anything you will have to model. The plan would be then to look at what you are going to model and break it down into t6he fundamental shapes and then model with the basic polyflow suggested.

jeric_synergy
07-19-2014, 10:32 AM
I second Surrealist's suggestion about grinding thru his tutorials: they really ARE pretty comprehensive. It's rather like playing piano scales-- you just have to do them.

This thread and other subpatch threads have reminded me of functions I'd forgotten about (Border Slice), and functions I'm not sure I ever knew ( 3-5 Fix !!!). So I suggest that you go thru the LWM Interface, button by button, and re-familiarize yourself with each function, paying attention to the options in the Numeric Panel, where much goodness resides. You said yourself you have bad habits to break, this will jar you out of your rut.

Also had forgotten about QuickCut 1/2/3 and other tools....

Tony3d
07-21-2014, 02:20 PM
Well guys I started Richards tutorials today, and their really well written, but I'm a show me kinda guy. As hard as I try, I'm having a very difficult time getting my head around this. I think it's just way to structured for me. I've put a lot of time, and effort into this, but really don't see this happening for me. I need to get some work in here right now. Thanks to all who have helped me out, it was greatly appreciated. My head just hurts!

jeric_synergy
07-21-2014, 05:12 PM
Well guys I started Richards tutorials today, and their really well written, but I'm a show me kinda guy.
??? They're fully illustrated...

djwaterman
07-22-2014, 12:08 AM
Richards "Tutorial" is not really a follow along tutorial but more a complete reference manual that you can dip into when ever you need clarification on this subject. As has been stated, it's not important so much the tools that get used, it's the actual mesh that is made, and there are many ways to make exactly the same mesh, and many tools that do same or similar things mesh-wise. If you want to watch video then there are some excellent ones here (http://www.pixelandpoly.com/video.html), but these were made with an older version of LW and don't use any of the new tools that would speed up the process, but the resulting meshes are the same. It's just a learning curve that takes as long as it takes.

jeric_synergy
07-22-2014, 12:21 AM
YMMV, but I find videos to be extremely time-consuming versus static presentations, i.e. PDFs and webpages. I can move as fast as I like when I'm not tied to a video.

Tony3d
07-22-2014, 05:29 AM
Richards "Tutorial" is not really a follow along tutorial but more a complete reference manual that you can dip into when ever you need clarification on this subject. As has been stated, it's not important so much the tools that get used, it's the actual mesh that is made, and there are many ways to make exactly the same mesh, and many tools that do same or similar things mesh-wise. If you want to watch video then there are some excellent ones here (http://www.pixelandpoly.com/video.html), but these were made with an older version of LW and don't use any of the new tools that would speed up the process, but the resulting meshes are the same. It's just a learning curve that takes as long as it takes.

Thanks. Jeffry's free videos are what got me started, and brought me to where I am now. I was thinking of buying the complete $24.00 bundle. Has anyone here bought them, do you think I could get a really good start with them? I was able to make several objects from scratch, but feel I was able to do it more by luck, than by truly understanding what I was doing. I guess I'm stressed because I have more or less dropped all searching for work to learn this stuff in hopes of actually using it. Therefore, I haven't had a paying job for the last couple weeks. I need to balance both I guess. I may just buy his videos. Is there a fairly solid intro to poly flow in there?

Tony3d
07-22-2014, 09:20 AM
I went through Richards Tutorial up to doing shape. I think as long as I stay mainly with 8 sided shapes I kinda get whats going on. I do understand how to create them pretty well, but when it gets more complicated I get start getting confused.

jeric_synergy
07-22-2014, 10:04 AM
Well, it IS a puzzle. The more you solve, the quicker you'll be.

Probiner's "Polygon Tables" are a great resource for addressing these puzzles.

Surrealist.
07-22-2014, 01:00 PM
I went through Richards Tutorial up to doing shape. I think as long as I stay mainly with 8 sided shapes I kinda get whats going on. I do understand how to create them pretty well, but when it gets more complicated I get start getting confused.

Yeah that looks good.

I would say just don't jump ahead. Go do the next section and build those shapes.

There was a method to my madness. It does have an end result - if you go through each one.

A little more insight as to how this tutorial and the ideas in it came about:

It was not that I sat down thought up what would be a good set of basic objects that a modeler would have to learn and built this tutorial on some preconceived ideal.

Rather it was born out of my own experiences. I literally started out with little clue as to what I was doing when I first started modeling sub patches. I did remember working with metaform in LW when it came out and that was a big deal. There was a lot of similarity to subD but beyond that I really did not know what was going on.

So I started doing a bunch of tutorials. Anything I could find. I modeled a bunch of heads using box modeling until I had something that remotely resembled a human head. But it was like groping in the dark. I really did not understand polyflow.

What did start to happen was I noticed certain patterns start to emerge.

Then I got into modeling more hard surface shapes. And also at this same time I started getting more involved online and helping other modelers through the morass.

Then I decided one day I really did not know what I was doing if I could not whip out all of the primitive shapes in sub D. And this is where it finally started to click.

I spent a good deal of time making a .lwo file filled with layers of primitive shapes of all kinds, and trying as many ways to join shapes and so on and laying out basic poly flow for all kinds of uses. Basically it was a plan to then reach into this file anytime I needed a primitive shape. You can find this file here someplace if you search "subpatch privitives".

Here is a link that seems to work:

http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?64505-Subpatch-Primitives

So somewhere as things started to click I realized that there were only a few patterns you would ever really need. And no matter how I combined things it seemed to come out the same way.

And I then started helping people look at it very simply and not complex. Then I got asked to make a tutorial for the wiki.

The reason I decided to make it start with primitive shapes then, was because from my own discovery, I found that it was the very basic level you had to understand first. And if you could get that under your belt you'd be on your way. Because that is more or less how it happened for me. As soon as I stopped playing about with it and just got down to the basics, it finally clicked.

And I also found that these were the things that people had the most difficulty with. Just the basics. Just simple primitive basic parts of the model. Not really the complex things.

And so I also started this workshop to kind of try and get more people into helping and sharing ideas.

http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?83878-Subdivision-Modeling-Workshop

The entire point in writing tutorials and passing on information is that so other people don't have to toil the hours away. If we pass on what we know we save other people time and they do the same to us.

So take advantage of that when ever it comes along. :)

Tony3d
07-22-2014, 01:38 PM
I'm sorry, but I just couldn't resist. Made this little knob I think the mesh looks good, but it is a bit excessive. I tried to get the knurl as sharp as I could. What do you think?Thanks Richard. I will continue. Think I will also buy Those videos from Jeffry. Thanks for the workshop page. Looks really interesting. I did put all those primitives in layers as I made them. LOL!

jeric_synergy
07-22-2014, 11:22 PM
Working with another subd primitive.... I gotta say, so far subd tetrahedrons are the WORST/most laborious to create. A total PITA.

Maybe because they are SO basic. .... man. :bangwall:


Or I haven't yet found that clever trick that will make them a breeze.

Surrealist.
07-23-2014, 05:34 AM
you can always try the old bevel function on all of the faces then come back and patch in the corners with the add edges tool and merge polys etc.

123191

123192

123193

123194

- - - Updated - - -


I'm sorry, but I just couldn't resist. Made this little knob I think the mesh looks good, but it is a bit excessive. I tried to get the knurl as sharp as I could. What do you think?Thanks Richard. I will continue. Think I will also buy Those videos from Jeffry. Thanks for the workshop page. Looks really interesting. I did put all those primitives in layers as I made them. LOL!

Looking very cool!

Making some progress for sure... but yeah... get back to the basics and it will finally click.

jeric_synergy
07-23-2014, 07:18 AM
you can always try the old bevel function on all of the faces then come back and patch in the corners with the add edges tool and merge polys etc.
That's GOTTA be faster than the mishegas I'm going thru....

JoePoe
07-26-2014, 02:18 PM
....so far subd tetrahedrons are the WORST/most laborious to create....


Or I haven't yet found that clever trick that will make them a breeze.

Pretty breezy :hey:....

Get your tris into quads (by any number of painless ways). I used one click.... Subdivide > Metaform (at 0 (just to be safe)). 123246

Use Bandsaw as usual for control loops.... 123247

SubD. (you can combine the center polys back into tris..... if you really need to 8~). 123248

jeric_synergy
07-26-2014, 05:10 PM
I hate you. ;)

AFC, but I'm surprised Bandsaw would work at all: I'd think it'd get 'routed around a corner'.... O, IC: it makes more sense once you've metaformed....
Also, I woulda never thought of Metaform-- .... 8~

I'm facilitating the conversation!!! Yeahhhh, that's the ticket!
++++
Dissolved the corner edges away, after following your recipe:

Softcorner Subd Tetrahedron primitive lscript: 123257

123258

Surrealist.
07-26-2014, 10:19 PM
Very clever idea JoePoe!

JoePoe
07-27-2014, 12:56 PM
:boogiedow Thanks guys!

And nice LS Jeric :thumbsup:
_______________

Two more options:

OPTION B:
Start 123280
1) Smooth Shift (be careful, some corners may get flipped.... as you can see) 123281
2) Subdivide > Metaform 123282 (I know, the actual corner/edges are flat.... c'est la vie :).... softer corner)
3) SubD 123283

OPTION C:
Start 123280
1) Rounder on edges... 2 rounding edges ("mesh density high" will keep quads in corners) 123284
1.5) Make sure you merge points and unify polys.
2) SubD 123285 (tris in middle.... if you don't mind).
Edit: Just a little extra hand work if you do mind... 123286. It's just not a full, one click, Metaform... in order to keep the corners simple.

jeric_synergy
07-27-2014, 02:49 PM
Tried to use some of these concepts on a dodecahedron, since we're doing Platonic solids: not so much success. Yet.

+++
Okay, here's one way forward, but this was all manual work (no 'power tools'), so not very clever. Just the one face...
123287

JoePoe
07-27-2014, 03:07 PM
:D I would think going from three sided sides to five sided sides would offer up a different set of challenges!

But the Rounder option should work. :thumbsup:

JoePoe
07-27-2014, 03:19 PM
Yup, Rounder to the rescue :)

123289

jeric_synergy
07-27-2014, 06:26 PM
dooo dee dooo dee doo doo....waitaminit... Do you get an intermediate step that looks like this??? :cry:

123291

JoePoe
07-27-2014, 06:51 PM
:eek:..... :stumped: No I don't. 123292. Hmmmm.

At first I thought it has something to do with the fact that your pentagons are already subdivided before the Rounding.
So I ran Make Pole first and then ran Rounder.
Gave a good result (to my eye, not as pretty flow wise as my first one. I'm not crazy about the tris on the flats and all the five stars.) BUT, it was faster than the original order of operations. 123293

P.S. I found a solution using the original process.... Metaform > Bandsaw. But one thing at a time.

jeric_synergy
07-28-2014, 12:34 AM
Hi Joe,
No, that's not the case, the faces were not Tripled first. My steps were:



Use PLATONIC to get a dodecahedron.
Size it up to ~1 meter (it starts very small)
Run ROUNDER


And that's IT. This image shows ONE poly selected.
123294

So, ROUNDER seems to be over-achieving here, I'm not sure why. The previous image showed the settings.

JoePoe
07-28-2014, 07:24 AM
Okay got it. I've managed to recreate your problem.

123300 123301

Turn off Open GL Poly. I had to crank the value up pretty high to achieve the result.... anyway you don't need it at all here.
Now you should be good to go. :thumbsup:

Side note: Instead of the extra step of scaling up, why not just assign the 1m size in the platonic dialog box? No biggie, just curious.

Edit: Ohhhh, you must be using Create > Platonic which responds to the grid size at the time of creation. Try Create > Platonic Solid Tool.... it has input fields.

jeric_synergy
07-28-2014, 09:45 AM
Trying to save a click.

This kinda thing makes it hard to learn..... :(

THANKS for all your input here, Joe! :thumbsup:

JoePoe
07-28-2014, 09:54 AM
:) Click all you want.
The only reason I mentioned it was because I thought since the resize was, seemingly, the only difference in the process, that may have been where the problem arose.

Did the other point solve your problem?

jeric_synergy
07-28-2014, 10:00 AM
AFC, I'll have to look later. But really, BIG THANKS.

The 'click' was about the diff between PLATONIC and PLATONIC TOOL.

JoePoe
07-31-2014, 10:43 AM
:) Fun little "challenge" you put forth.


.....The 'click' was about the diff between PLATONIC and PLATONIC TOOL.

If you liked (:cursin:) that, you'll love to know that the solution I came up with for the Dodecahedron using the metaform and bandsaw technique exploits a difference between Subdivide > Subdivide > Metaform and, wait for it..... Subdivide > Subdivide > More > MetaformPlus. :ohmy:

(oh, and through this whole thing I've been using Band Saw EX instead of Band Saw Pro because of the "Absolute" option. :foreheads)

jeric_synergy
07-31-2014, 11:11 PM
I can't TELL you how pleased I am.