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Tony3d
07-03-2014, 12:29 PM
Starting my next project. Trying to model this radio sitting on my desk. Had all sorts of issues including non planner poly's. Fixed all of them. Does the mesh still look good enough to continue? Please tell me this is the right idea.

ernpchan
07-03-2014, 12:40 PM
Looks fine so far. Don't feel like you have to keep everything as a single mesh. Having separate pieces is acceptable too.

Tony3d
07-03-2014, 01:06 PM
Looks fine so far. Don't feel like you have to keep everything as a single mesh. Having separate pieces is acceptable too.

Just trying to make it the most difficult way. It has forced me to solve many issues.

ernpchan
07-03-2014, 01:11 PM
Just trying to make it the most difficult way. It has forced me to solve many issues.

lol, isn't that the opposite way people usually wanna work?
:D

hrgiger
07-03-2014, 01:21 PM
You always want to go for the solutions that work the quickest and provide the best results, especially if you're learning (which you always should be no matter how good you feel you are). In the case of this particular model, I would certainly have made the speaker a separate piece from the main radio body. Also, be careful to leave room to cut holes in the mesh so you can create the openings for the dials.

Tony3d
07-03-2014, 01:30 PM
I think I'm getting this. I will try for separate pieces on my next model.

XswampyX
07-03-2014, 04:06 PM
Looks ok.

If you use separate objects not only do you get added extra detail for no extra work, you can also clone objects and re-use them (the knobs and switches) and.... you can vary the density of the mesh without creating a massive headache for yourself. Also when you come to make the other side(the back) if it's separate, you won't have to worry about your cuts messing up the front face.

http://i465.photobucket.com/albums/rr16/xXswampyXx/Radio_Wires_zps8475c97e.gif (http://s465.photobucket.com/user/xXswampyXx/media/Radio_Wires_zps8475c97e.gif.html)

Tony3d
07-03-2014, 04:12 PM
Ok.now I'm stuck. Can't seem o put in the two LED'S. Should I just make them separate, and lay them against the face?

Ztreem
07-03-2014, 04:22 PM
I know you did it in one piece just for training but try to think how this radio is manufactured and model it like that. No one builds a radio like that in one piece, you will get a more accurate and photoreal result with a model made of pieces like the real thing.

ANS
07-03-2014, 04:28 PM
Just trying to make it the most difficult way. It has forced me to solve many issues.

So, maybe try modelling and in this same time, simulaneously juggle 10 balls? :D
Doing everything as one piece is a lost of time and pain in the A** :)
For LED's- make a holes (try great tool UNTANGLE).

djwaterman
07-03-2014, 04:28 PM
Should you just lay them against the face?

Yes, that would be the cheap and nasty solution. You're now on the addicted to sub-patch path, so you might consider this a rehearsal and start the model again, this time building it up as parts. XSwampyX has already provided a good reference, consider things like the wooden frame, is it made of 4 planks? Then just make 4 sub-patched oblongs, what could be easier? Most products are just a bunch of regular shapes, boxes and circles, you don't need to try to make things difficult because even when you break it up into parts there will still be difficult bits to solve.

Snosrap
07-03-2014, 10:35 PM
I know you did it in one piece just for training but try to think how this radio is manufactured and model it like that. No one builds a radio like that in one piece, you will get a more accurate and photoreal result with a model made of pieces like the real thing. Plus the ability to actually rotate the knobs when the need or desire arises.

shrox
07-03-2014, 11:19 PM
What if you decide to turn the knobs, but someone beat me to it.

Slartibartfast
07-04-2014, 10:19 AM
http://youtu.be/g25G1M4EXrQ?t=1m46s

:D

Tony3d
07-04-2014, 11:45 AM
http://youtu.be/g25g1m4exrq?t=1m46s

:d

lmao!!!!

Tony3d
07-04-2014, 11:48 AM
Well here it is all quads one sub patched model ( except the dial pointers so I can rotate them to any position). Not a perfect mesh, but it works, and I've learned an awful Lot!

Tony3d
07-04-2014, 12:45 PM
Couple adjustments

Surrealist.
07-04-2014, 01:07 PM
On this one it is the inside corners that can use some work.

The best I have found is to use this config whenever possible:

122788

It also winds up saving you polygons. And in general give you the kind of options you want on the inside corner.

Other than that... nice render!

Tony3d
07-04-2014, 01:24 PM
On this one it is the inside corners that can use some work.

The best I have found is to use this config whenever possible:

122788

It also winds up saving you polygons. And in general give you the kind of options you want on the inside corner.

Other than that... nice render!

Thanks. The problem is, when I made this I had the speaker, and dial knob in, then realized I forgot to inset the face. I'm afraid it's beyond fixing at this point.

Tony3d
07-04-2014, 02:32 PM
Fixed up the inside edges just a bit. Looks acceptable now I think. I have to learn better planning.

Surrealist.
07-05-2014, 04:56 AM
Thanks. The problem is, when I made this I had the speaker, and dial knob in, then realized I forgot to inset the face. I'm afraid it's beyond fixing at this point.

Not sure why it would be beyond fixing. It never is. And that it a lesson there in workflow. You can always delete polygons, remove edges and do about a dozen things to redirect your flow. You don't even have to have the radio face faces connected yet. You can delete those and re make the corner polygons then reconnect.

I am not a real big fan - if you have not guessed - of progressive modeling techniques such a box modeling or any method that paints you into a corner where you have to say..."well I have done this now... can't go back".

Whenever I am forced into this (technologically) I always save a "just before" copy I can refer to.

But with basic subpatch modeling, you just don't have to have all of the mesh connected all of the time and you should not really be making loops all around the object all the time. Delete polygons if you want to stop the loop. Edit the area locally and then connect as you want rather than always being locked into the things you do locally affecting everything else. That is a very limiting way to work.

It is far better in my opinion to work local detail isolated from the rest of the mesh.

It is not a bad idea for you to have taken on challenges that force you to make this all one mesh if you want that lesson.

But in that lesson know that you don't actually have to model with all parts connected all the time even if you intend to connect them later. It is not just a good way to proceed in my opinion from experience.

Tony3d
07-05-2014, 06:19 AM
Not sure why it would be beyond fixing. It never is. And that it a lesson there in workflow. You can always delete polygons, remove edges and do about a dozen things to redirect your flow. You don't even have to have the radio face faces connected yet. You can delete those and re make the corner polygons then reconnect.

I am not a real big fan - if you have not guessed - of progressive modeling techniques such a box modeling or any method that paints you into a corner where you have to say..."well I have done this now... can't go back".

Whenever I am forced into this (technologically) I always save a "just before" copy I can refer to.

But with basic subpatch modeling, you just don't have to have all of the mesh connected all of the time and you should not really be making loops all around the object all the time. Delete polygons if you want to stop the loop. Edit the area locally and then connect as you want rather than always being locked into the things you do locally affecting everything else. That is a very limiting way to work.

It is far better in my opinion to work local detail isolated from the rest of the mesh.

It is not a bad idea for you to have taken on challenges that force you to make this all one mesh if you want that lesson.

But in that lesson know that you don't actually have to model with all parts connected all the time even if you intend to connect them later. It is not just a good way to proceed in my opinion from experience.

I'm afraid my problem is that I really don't understand all the new tools I'm working with. When you say everything doesn't have to be connected all the time, I don't know exactly what you mean. I don't know how to unconnected them. I did manage to figure out you can delete control loops, but say I wanted to delete all the poly's that make up the inside edge of the cabinet, well then what? If I sent you the model, could you make a short tutorial explaining how to trouble shoot this. By jumping right in, I started working with tools I never used before such as divide, connect, transform, multi shift, and many others. I wonder how I have been able to do some of the things I have without al thee tools, but I have managed to do this for many years without them. Now I see what I've been missing. Trouble is a lot tutorials show how sub modeling is done, but does little to explain how the tools work, or how they relate in a workflow, so I have been trying to figure all this out on my own. It's been very difficult. I have been published several times in magazines, modeled the 2003 mars lander for a senior scientist at the John Glenn Research Center, have made many renders for large corporation, even have a small screen credit for an animation, all without using half of the tools Lightwave has to offer. Now that I started this, I'm beginning to doubt my own abilities. Don't know whether I should go back to where I'm comfortable, or move forward. I think I may have jumped in to fast! Anyway, without understanding how many of these tools work, or knowing what tools I may have never used yet to get a certain task done, I'm afraid editing an object like this, seems impossible to me. Don't know where to go from here. Remember when you first got Lightwave, made your first box, looked at it then said now what? Well, that's how I feel now. LOL!
It's very frustrating! Next month I'll be turning 60, perhaps I'm just getting to old to grasp this stuff anymore. Really appreachiate all the help everyone has giving me though.

VIDandCGI
07-05-2014, 07:22 AM
I hope this helps a little Tony.

122798

1st is the shape a simple box with dial modelled as one continuous sub patch mesh.

2nd is the same idea but the dial is modelled separately.

3rd is same as two but exploded a little to show that the dial is totally separate it now allows me to add details etc. without cuts/additional loopsetc running over onto sections that don't need it. What you are doing is breaking down the final object into smaller separate ones. Also here i know that the back of the dial isn't going to be seen - so it isn't modelled reducing the number of polys required as I don't need the back or connecting ploys.

During planning stage I could plan to model the body and dial as two separate objs or I could model them as one then just cut the dial to a new layer to add details, tidy up the point where it originally connected to the body so it has the same number of points again and reconnect it.

Tony3d
07-05-2014, 08:35 AM
I hope this helps a little Tony.

122798

1st is the shape a simple box with dial modelled as one continuous sub patch mesh.

2nd is the same idea but the dial is modelled separately.

3rd is same as two but exploded a little to show that the dial is totally separate it now allows me to add details etc. without cuts/additional loopsetc running over onto sections that don't need it. What you are doing is breaking down the final object into smaller separate ones. Also here i know that the back of the dial isn't going to be seen - so it isn't modelled reducing the number of polys required as I don't need the back or connecting ploys.

During planning stage I could plan to model the body and dial as two separate objs or I could model them as one then just cut the dial to a new layer to add details, tidy up the point where it originally connected to the body so it has the same number of points again and reconnect it.

Ok, got it. i had already started separating the cabinet from the faceplate to remake the cabinet as a serrate object. Got way to caught up in this one piece thing. Will post a new sample shortly!

djwaterman
07-05-2014, 08:55 AM
At your age its good to keep at it and learn the new skills, it is just what your brain wants, and look at what you've done already, it's hardly been much time. We just mean that you can select the polygons that make up the nobs or speakers or what ever and cut and copy them into a new layer (or the same layer for that matter). Sub D modeling isn't much different to polygon modeling, you use all the same tools, you just have to try to keep everything quads as much as possible. Hit the TAB key often as you model, get used to seeing the object in polygon and then Sub-D modes, and then back and forth until you start to notice the subtle things that are going on, how points always stay in the same spot even if the edges might appear to shift drastically. You can also do a lot of the modeling, adding edge loops or extending faces while in normal polygon mode, sometimes it is easier to see what is really going on with the mesh, and then hit TAB to see if you got the shape you want. If not then hit TAB again, analyse what needs doing and add another control loop or move a point further apart or what not. Anyway you're doing well.

Tony3d
07-05-2014, 09:15 AM
Here is the new one with separate cabinet remodeled as sub patch. Looks better in the corners I think.

Tony3d
07-05-2014, 09:21 AM
At your age its good to keep at it and learn the new skills, it is just what your brain wants, and look at what you've done already, it's hardly been much time. We just mean that you can select the polygons that make up the nobs or speakers or what ever and cut and copy them into a new layer (or the same layer for that matter). Sub D modeling isn't much different to polygon modeling, you use all the same tools, you just have to try to keep everything quads as much as possible. Hit the TAB key often as you model, get used to seeing the object in polygon and then Sub-D modes, and then back and forth until you start to notice the subtle things that are going on, how points always stay in the same spot even if the edges might appear to shift drastically. You can also do a lot of the modeling, adding edge loops or extending faces while in normal polygon mode, sometimes it is easier to see what is really going on with the mesh, and then hit TAB to see if you got the shape you want. If not then hit TAB again, analyse what needs doing and add another control loop or move a point further apart or what not. Anyway you're doing well.

Thanks. Just got caught up in this one box object thing. Othet than Connect, divide, multi shift, what other tools are handy for sub patched models, and where can I learn them?

Surrealist.
07-05-2014, 10:15 AM
I'm afraid my problem is that I really don't understand all the new tools I'm working with. When you say everything doesn't have to be connected all the time, I don't know exactly what you mean. I don't know how to unconnected them. I did manage to figure out you can delete control loops, but say I wanted to delete all the poly's that make up the inside edge of the cabinet, well then what? If I sent you the model, could you make a short tutorial explaining how to trouble shoot this. By jumping right in, I started working with tools I never used before such as divide, connect, transform, multi shift, and many others. I wonder how I have been able to do some of the things I have without al thee tools, but I have managed to do this for many years without them. Now I see what I've been missing. Trouble is a lot tutorials show how sub modeling is done, but does little to explain how the tools work, or how they relate in a workflow, so I have been trying to figure all this out on my own. It's been very difficult. I have been published several times in magazines, modeled the 2003 mars lander for a senior scientist at the John Glenn Research Center, have made many renders for large corporation, even have a small screen credit for an animation, all without using half of the tools Lightwave has to offer. Now that I started this, I'm beginning to doubt my own abilities. Don't know whether I should go back to where I'm comfortable, or move forward. I think I may have jumped in to fast! Anyway, without understanding how many of these tools work, or knowing what tools I may have never used yet to get a certain task done, I'm afraid editing an object like this, seems impossible to me. Don't know where to go from here. Remember when you first got Lightwave, made your first box, looked at it then said now what? Well, that's how I feel now. LOL!
It's very frustrating! Next month I'll be turning 60, perhaps I'm just getting to old to grasp this stuff anymore. Really appreachiate all the help everyone has giving me though.

To be clear from the start. I pretty much never model subdivision surfaces with Subpatch mode (or whatever it is in the given program) turned on. I mean I don't think of it as another way to work. I am just modeling polys. What I do do is invoke SubD just as a sanity check every now and again. And I will tweak surfaces that are smooth - sometimes - when in subD mode. But 99 percent of the time or better I am in poly mode.

And there is another thing to remember about SubD. It is a render-only solution. It is not a polygon modeling solution. It is not a smoothing of polygons way to model, put another way.

It is a way to prep a model so that it may be smoothed at render time for various reasons and uses. OGL is basically a render solution that supports Subdivision Surfaces.

Confused yet?

I hope so, because I would like to dispel the idea that subD is a modeling mode. Please get that out of your mind. And think of it only as a way to prep the model for later smoothing. And the fact that you can preview it is a plus so you don't have to wait for the render. It is like VPR for your model. And in my opinion should be treated as such.

What I meant by not have to be connected is exactly the method I showed here, middle of the page:

http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?142122-Need-Help-with-Spline-modeling/page7

The sequence with the base hole.

The main problem you are running into is that you have tossed out all that you know already and leaped into this thinking it is another world.

True, you have used new tools that are helpful for this workflow. But think of them as only more polygon modeling tools. All the same other tools you have are at your disposal. Delete polys, connect them, extrude, bevel, bandsaw pro etc. Multishift is a great tool. But it can also get you into trouble when you only use it as a solution while in subpatch mode. Sure it is fun and very useful.

But Subd Modeling is all about the study of the proper polyflow and modeling in poly mode to lay out a proper set of edge loops and so on. And if done right your model should very closely resemble the smoothed version minus that finishing touch of all things rounded off.

You don't have to keep it all in one piece to start any more than you would with your other techniques. I model pretty much the same way when I am doing it for SubD or for a poly model that will never see subD. The main difference is all quads and edge loops. But I use all of the same tools in the same way.

If your model will be in one piece at the end, it can be several parts to begin. Work on some detail and then connect polygons with the old fashioned p key. Cut away with the usual tools. Add Edges is great for this. And so on. Delete polys merge poys. All of the basics. That is how I work anyway and it has served me well these last years.

I think you are doing much better than you think and also, just have to mainly wrap your head around polyflow. The rest is basically the same.

And PS, Dude, you make some amazing renders. For sure, do not get discouraged and give up.

You will be just fine. :-)

Tony3d
07-05-2014, 11:57 AM
My problem is that over the years I have become rather lazy. I developed a lot of bad habits such as not merging points, sloppy meshes, and so on. is there a good tutorial describing poly workflow in detail?

Tony3d
07-05-2014, 12:53 PM
Tweaked up, and done. Moving on.