PDA

View Full Version : The power of Softimage ICE (A Tool to Create Tools) what can LW nodes learn from it.



robertoortiz
06-24-2014, 07:45 AM
I want to post this thread to show the power of Sofimage ICE.


For me it show how you can create a nodal implentation that allow for ANY type of USER to use it.

Check it out.

Build Your Own Bézier Curve Interpolation
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aiV2QUgLGr0
It is the kind of tolls that allows the easy creation of tools. it is acrime what autodesk did to this program.

RebelHill
06-24-2014, 08:13 AM
For me it show how you can create a nodal implentation that allow for ANY type of USER to use it.

Seriously?!

Hands up all those folk who find LW nodal too mathy or intimidating who think this looks so much easier. (btw, you can make almost the exact same network in LW nodal).

ps... Building an IK solver using nodal...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_fwVwFu6No&index=8&list=PL1C4072533A16B807

robertoortiz
06-24-2014, 09:26 AM
It is not about the complexity of the Nodes themselves.
They are of course SUPER powerful
case in point: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHwJ1XFrPUE

But ICE is more than a nodal tree.

It is a tool creation way (See how I did not say Plug ins)

With ICE you can:
Access all attributes for the app (for those who like power and complexity)
You can compound the nodes them package them an make them into custom TOOL (For those who like simplicity)
TOOLS that behave like the Program TOOLS with their own interfaces (if you wish).

OnlineRender
06-24-2014, 10:08 AM
Seriously?!


RH SMASH!
https://scontent-b-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash2/t1.0-9/943324_609641959060153_309166905_n.jpg

you are doing well RH thought you may have cracked by now :)

RebelHill
06-24-2014, 10:50 AM
It is not about the complexity of the Nodes themselves... It is a tool creation way (See how I did not say Plug ins)... You can compound the nodes them package them an make them into custom TOOL

Then why do you introduce it as...


a nodal implentation that allow for ANY type of USER to use it

The "use nodes to make tools" (and you may as well say plugins, theres no meaningful difference here) is still only of any use to those users who are comfortable using the nodes in the first instance. And sure, whilst its a nice thing to be able to do, and Id love to do it in LW... its not like we cant make tools here too, we got LS, we got python, etc.



RH SMASH!

you are doing well RH thought you may have cracked by now :)

<3 x

bazsa73
06-25-2014, 12:11 AM
But LW nodal system is scattered throughout the galaxy. There should be a master nodal panel or window which would enable the users access
all the nodes from motion to surfacing. That's the 1st step in my opinion. My sqrt(0.00000002 / Avogadro number) cents

probiner
06-25-2014, 03:06 AM
Well lets be honest. XSI node system is also scattered. You just can't use Render Tree nodes in an ICE Tree and vice-versa. Also each ICE operator has it's own tree.
Plus ICE has it's own problems. Multi-dimensional arrays, you have access to a lot of data but you can't change many of it, getting and setting self kinematics is a bad practice.
What makes it fun is that you can set/store/cache data that can be accessed in other ICE trees or even in the Shader Tree (for example if you set a UV and other vertex maps in ICE).

Haven't delved much into it but another great thing is that ICE trees can be simulated, where you have data building up over time, so if you Get PointPoistion > Add 0,1,0 > Set PointPosition it will Add 0,1,0 every frame because the PoinPosition atribute reading is done by frame and not in absolute like in a normal ICE Tree. Many times tried to emulate this in LW and failed. I just could not set the arbitrary parameters chaching over time, and also getting them at that frame.

Another point and this one is more important than it might seem. ICE Node trees output is just one. An Execute port, while in LW you output values into specific port types for specific ends.
There are scrpts to for example apply a compound to multiple objects in on go. I don't know how would that be possible in LW for example, because you also have to make the port connections. It's not simply linking a single type, single port to the tree port. But for sure I wish there was a way to "shotgun" Node trees over multiple objects, as well to delete them, for easier management.
Compounds can be either contained in the scene or saved loaded as a reference, so they update, and have versioning :)
Last, References can get broken but they don't get empty like in LW, this allows you to fix them, and voilá, all works. Plus you can point to "self", "this_parent" and "this_model". So three relative ways to refer to something so it doesn't break when you load something in other scenes.

And yes its all math and logic the same as in LW nodes there. It's just some stuff are non existent in LW. Though you can say the same the other way around, but mostly due to Dpont and not a structural design.

I point out to stuff in XSI many times, simply as an example of stuff out there that I think it was well implemented and should be a reference when the time comes to rethink or implement something alike in LightWave.
But let it be clear, there's a lot more important and fundamental things to look at XSI before ICE, that would impact everyone positively, not just people wanting niches like liquids, CA, ICE etc. And that's scene, content and render management.

Cheers

lightscape
06-25-2014, 03:46 AM
But LW nodal system is scattered throughout the galaxy. There should be a master nodal panel or window which would enable the users access
all the nodes from motion to surfacing. That's the 1st step in my opinion. My sqrt(0.00000002 / Avogadro number) cents

A master panel like the shadertree in modo? Its so messy and hard to navigate through in a complex scene with a nodal stack that is in one place from bottom up.
Personally I like the organization of lightwave to have different nodal panels for surface, object, renderpasses, etc. Lw nodes is very easy to understand since its organized this way.

pinkmouse
06-25-2014, 04:17 AM
I think the nodal system of LW is one of it's major strengths, and personally, I'd deprecate, and eventually abandon, other methods of working. Do we really need three different systems of texturing? How much development time and effort is required to support all those different ways of working? Loose layer and shader based systems, and make all those functions we might loose into nodes or presets. Who wouldn't want to just drop a Bloom node on an object?

Or take motion. Make all the Doctor and other stuff into self contained nodes and get rid of the entire motion modifier system. Something less to support.

Yes, a certain amount of backwards compatibility and old workflows have to go, but a streamlined system without multiple ways of doing stuff would be much easier to support and upgrade. LW needs change, we all agree on that, and I think it has to be drastic if the software is to survive.

Ryan Roye
06-25-2014, 10:56 AM
I feel LW nodes are adequate for getting constraint setups relative to scene item properties and whatnot going.

The beef I have with it is that there are scenarios where the nodal motion system becomes disjointed with the rest of Lightwave. For example, when using raycasting, you won't always get real-time feedback while editing without enabling studio live or performing the edits with IKBooster. This is also true of constraints set up in the graph editor. There's also lack of bulk management.

Then there's documentation... it isn't straightforward as to how to look up what certain nodal inputs do because they often use very common words; this makes searching a tedious exercise. While it increases the value of commercial content that covers nodes, it really shouldn't be necessary.

pinkmouse
06-30-2014, 03:48 AM
Couldn't agree more, and despite all the third party node editors out there, (thanks chaps!), there are still far too many things you can't do nodally. That's why I think LW needs a new structure and workflow, concentrate on one thing and do it really well rather than spreading too thin and supporting too many options.

jeric_synergy
06-30-2014, 07:46 AM
There's also lack of bulk management.
THAT is a very good point. I'd say it is a syndrome of LW3dG developers, from the very beginning, like part of the culture. Repeatedly I've seen them implement features that, on their own and one at a time, are very desirable, but once you've got to wrangle multiple copies start immediately to break down or become unmanageable.


this makes searching a tedious exercise. While it increases the value of commercial content that covers nodes,...
Burn! So cynical! ;) ;) ;)


..., there are still far too many things you can't do nodally.
One thing I see in the scripting discussions, and see myself in the nodal editor, is that not EVERY parameter has a 'handle' or a node input. There are still things that are not 'exposed'.

Once EVERYTHING is exposed, in the SDK and everywhere, I expect the plugin writers, including the native invisible plugins that we just think of as tools, will be able to be much more productive.

I'd assumed that's one of the biggest chores in front of the devs.

bazsa73
06-30-2014, 10:53 AM
A master panel like the shadertree in modo? Its so messy and hard to navigate through in a complex scene with a nodal stack that is in one place from bottom up.
Personally I like the organization of lightwave to have different nodal panels for surface, object, renderpasses, etc. Lw nodes is very easy to understand since its organized this way.
Not modo because I never used modo and I dont know how modo's shader tree works or does not work but I have used extensively maya and I was a lot pleased with
hypergraph. And yes, LW has great nodal abilities but it is limited to the given item, entity etc. It doesn't really favour multiplicity. That's what I miss.

Schwyhart
09-12-2016, 11:49 AM
Just my opinion: Lightwave has one of the easiest texturing systems to learn. MODO's shader tree is pretty tricky and even though I got pretty good at it, I always felt like I was fumbling around in the dark.
I had professional training for Maya's texturing system when it still had Mental Ray. I got pretty good at it too, but it definitely takes time to master.
Lightwave's system just comes much easier to me. All of it, not just the nodal system.