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raw-m
06-07-2014, 01:18 PM
I have no insider info on any future updates but it's been a while since we've heard anything, I just quite selfishly fancy some new tools to play with!

What, realistically, do you think we could get with the next update? I'd like to see some extension of the spline stuff, perhaps some spline deformations that don't require bones :D

Ryan Roye
06-07-2014, 01:51 PM
Ok I'll bite:

Genoma enhancements:

- Non-destructive rig updating. This will allow the user to re-position and adapt a rig skeleton without destroying layout-only functions.

- Bi-directional workflow. Changes the user makes in layout can be applied to modeler.

- Custom constraint setups (without using layout after rig construction).

- Improved library which allows the user to have the genoma window open and work in modeler at the same time.

hrgiger
06-07-2014, 02:40 PM
I heard a hint on facebook that rendering wireframes will be easier(as opposed to the wireframe color plugin we can use now). Don't know if that's for 11.7 or for future update.

I myself am hoping for some serious improvements to Fiberfx.

raw-m
06-07-2014, 02:58 PM
Yes, overall stability is also high on the list. I still get quite a few random crashes that are difficult to reproduce.

Some animation capabilities to the Particle/Line Thickness in the Properties/Edges tab would be welcome.

jeric_synergy
06-07-2014, 03:14 PM
Stability and consistency, bitte.

Addressing known bugs, omissions, and errata.


Some animation capabilities to the Particle/Line Thickness in the Properties/Edges tab would be welcome.
Can't you animate those via nodes?

Oedo 808
06-07-2014, 03:31 PM
Joint Weight Map Offset.


I heard a hint on facebook that rendering wireframes will be easier(as opposed to the wireframe color plugin we can use now). Don't know if that's for 11.7 or for future update.

Cool, if they are working on that it would be nice to have an option to show a sort of sub-wireframe as well, kinda like a ye olde Speed Modelling Challenge render (http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?128251-Speed-Modeling-Challenge-172%96-Everything-AND-the-Kitchen-Sink&p=1246932&viewfull=1#post1246932) I did where I think I blended two renders together. I think Blender has a viewport wireframe mode like that.

motivalex
06-08-2014, 07:01 AM
A completed bullet implementation would be nice:)

cresshead
06-08-2014, 07:24 AM
first implementation of GPU rendering

raw-m
06-08-2014, 08:12 AM
It's about time we had some kind of practicle Camera Mapping tools, although that maybe a v12 thing rather than a 'point' update.

ianr
06-08-2014, 08:55 AM
This 4 LW 12

HYDRA Modules intergrated -HYDRA PARTICLES-20Mill + (PLUS Jascha Updates)!

HYDRA Modules intergrated-TAFA Leased into HYDRA ChronoSculpt!!

HYDRA Modules intergrated-HYDRA 3RD POWERS Bought in !!!

HYDRA Modules intergrated-HYDRA NEVERON linked to TAFA & a FACESHIFT Type Plugin

HYDRA Modules intergrated-ALL WHERE Possible GPU driven,a base GFX card set by LW3dG

jwiede
06-08-2014, 02:00 PM
A completed bullet implementation would be nice:)
Absolutely. There are lots of dynamics tasks which require constraints/motors/etc.

jeric_synergy
06-08-2014, 02:11 PM
How much of Bullet are we missing?

+++
Wish lists are nice, but for DOT upgrades, I'd be satisfied with the Low Hanging Fruit.

For instance, I'd like all Panels to TOGGLE when you hit their button/hotkey, so they can be found when they are buried behind a bunch of other Panels.

That's GOTTA be easy, right?: already most old Panels toggle. And it would add consistency to the UI-- something we are sorely missing.

spherical
06-08-2014, 03:50 PM
Wish lists are nice, but for DOT upgrades, I'd be satisfied with the Low Hanging Fruit.

What I want to know is, how long to the first speculation about 13? Let's start guessing about it now and avoid the rush later.


For instance, I'd like all Panels to TOGGLE when you hit their button/hotkey, so they can be found when they are buried behind a bunch of other Panels. That's GOTTA be easy, right?: already most old Panels toggle. And it would add consistency to the UI-- something we are sorely missing.

On that front, why does the General/Render/Global Illum/Camera/Lights/Output Properties panel not open in its predetermined location when you start Layout, like the Surface Editor, Scene Editor and Image Editor do? Every time, you have to manually hit Properties on Camera or Lights to restore the panel. It goes in the slot where I want it but does not self-open like the others.

jeric_synergy
06-08-2014, 04:07 PM
Like I said, plenty of LFH to address.

Oedo 808
06-08-2014, 04:07 PM
What I want to know is, how long to the first speculation about 13? Let's start guessing about it now and avoid the rush later.

Good idea, here's mine; Joint Weight Map Offset.

jeric_synergy
06-08-2014, 05:06 PM
How about: when the Node Editor opens, the destination node isn't off the edge of the editor window?

Paul_Boland
06-08-2014, 06:18 PM
I'm wondering if Lightwave 12 is on the way. Been getting some interesting upgrade offers from Newtek lately that has wondering...

Andy Webb
06-09-2014, 03:39 AM
On that front, why does the General/Render/Global Illum/Camera/Lights/Output Properties panel not open in its predetermined location when you start Layout, like the Surface Editor, Scene Editor and Image Editor do? Every time, you have to manually hit Properties on Camera or Lights to restore the panel. It goes in the slot where I want it but does not self-open like the others.

The same goes for "Display Properties" in modeller for that matter!

pinkmouse
06-09-2014, 04:13 AM
How much of Bullet are we missing?

Lots. Never seen a definitive list, but you only have to glance though the Bullet homepage (http://bulletphysics.org/wordpress/) and forum to realise we have a very limited implementation.

jasonwestmas
06-09-2014, 06:36 AM
I'm thinking that Newtek will expand on the flocking system and make it their new go to particle system. I don't expect much in the character animation or keyframing department. Maybe 1 or 2 tools that might help a little with that. I have no ideas whatsoever about what they are planning on doing with modeler or bringing modeling tools to layout.

Andy Webb
06-09-2014, 07:00 AM
I'm thinking that Newtek will expand on the flocking system and make it their new go to particle system. I don't expect much in the character animation or keyframing department. Maybe 1 or 2 tools that might help a little with that. I have no ideas whatsoever about what they are planning on doing with modeler or bringing modeling tools to layout.

They could run true to form and do nothing with modeller :-((

JohnMarchant
06-09-2014, 07:39 AM
They could run true to form and do nothing with modeller :-((

I do hope not i know a few people what still use LW Layout but now model in another package, i mean its bad when people use Blender to model in and Layout to animate and render. This shows how much LW Modeler is loosing out to others and i believe this will continue if nothing is done with modeler.

Andy Webb
06-09-2014, 07:49 AM
I do hope not i know a few people what still use LW Layout but now model in another package, i mean its bad when people use Blender to model in and Layout to animate and render. This shows how much LW Modeler is loosing out to others and i believe this will continue if nothing is done with modeler.

Couldn't agree more

GandB
06-09-2014, 09:45 AM
I do hope not i know a few people what still use LW Layout but now model in another package, i mean its bad when people use Blender to model in and Layout to animate and render. This shows how much LW Modeler is loosing out to others and i believe this will continue if nothing is done with modeler.

Well; it's not like people haven't harped on them about it for years now. Lots of people have given up, and moved to work with tools that work for them instead. If they don't get their head on straight in the area of modeling, people will start to see the improvements these other packages have made in rendering and animating...and simply move all operations to that program, instead of upgrading their LW in the future. It's already happening right now.

I understand NT's/LW3DG's hesitance to say anything about development; but the near TOTAL blackout isn't doing them any good either. Wake up or pack up.

ianr
06-09-2014, 10:21 AM
Lovely Spherical LoL!


What I want to know is, how long to the first speculation about 13?
Let's start guessing about it now and avoid the rush later.

But, they may go SUPAstitious and bypass it going straight onto LW14 !:lwicon:

ewilliams2
06-09-2014, 10:30 AM
Actually Blender has an excellent animation toolset which is easy to use and very powerful as well as the mentioned very robust modeler. Just that Lightwave has such a gorgeous renderer.

jeric_synergy
06-09-2014, 10:34 AM
To me, YMMV, Blender's modeling virtues stem from it's "live" features, ones that are adjustable before freezing the mesh, although you may never have to freeze the mesh. Things like repeaters and cloners and whatnot.

erikals
06-09-2014, 03:15 PM
http://forums.newtek.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png cresshead
first implementation of GPU rendering

yes, could be interesting... !


http://forums.newtek.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png chazriker
Genoma enhancements...

yep, also with the fixes/changes RH mentioned some time back...

jeric_synergy
06-09-2014, 04:24 PM
yes, could be interesting... !
::skeptic face:: This IS the "rampant speculation" thread: there's little of interest. It's just us phaffing about.

motivalex
06-09-2014, 06:22 PM
One thing for sure, the next version lof Lightwave will have a different version number :)

jasonwestmas
06-09-2014, 07:32 PM
Absolutely. There are lots of dynamics tasks which require constraints/motors/etc.

I'm thinking 12 should be a particles and dynamics release, it seems to be the next logical step. I would be rotfl if it added more features without touching what was developed in the 11 series.

vonpietro
06-10-2014, 02:48 PM
a full featured lightwave A.I. brain that does the work for you, just tell you what you want. =)

only thing is the government wont let newtek implement it.


actually - good smoke generator and explosion maker
more interactivity with modeler tools
and
easy dust maker for peoples feet and wheels and stuff.

gcbotas
06-11-2014, 01:32 PM
Camera match between modeler and layout. Newtek is promoting architectural rendering. That feature would be really useful for that purpose...

50one
06-11-2014, 03:25 PM
....This upgrade will be paid one(hehehe).

Davewriter
06-11-2014, 07:45 PM
11.7 rampant speculltion features... wider parking spaces and more flavors of slurpee.
And then... oh, sorry... being dyslexic there.
Moving on.

Oedo 808
06-11-2014, 08:28 PM
Taron will be commissioned to add a boobs primitive.

hrgiger
06-12-2014, 06:42 AM
Modeler will be a unified modeling environment. Layout will be a unified Layout environment. Finally two unified programs.

Hail
06-12-2014, 08:25 AM
Modeler will be a unified modeling environment. Layout will be a unified Layout environment. Finally two unified programs.

You mean, we are going to have two unified programs still living on their own islands?

erikals
06-12-2014, 09:22 AM
Modeler will be a unified modeling environment. Layout will be a unified Layout environment. Finally two unified programs.

referring to what Rob said earlier, i hope to see some of these features in LightWave 12...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRu_R3RubYI#t=4m27s

bazsa73
06-12-2014, 01:09 PM
How about: when the Node Editor opens, the destination node isn't off the edge of the editor window?

+100 on that!

jasonwestmas
06-12-2014, 01:36 PM
Modeler will be a unified modeling environment. Layout will be a unified Layout environment. Finally two unified programs.

yes a unified layout environment with animation tools located on a another island. Both Islands are still in a bartering situation. :)

hrgiger
06-12-2014, 01:46 PM
The unified comment was meant to just be levity. I know that LW3DG is well aware of the issues of separation and it will be interesting to see what solutions they come up with moving forward.

aSkeptic
06-12-2014, 03:37 PM
gpu rendering

here here!

jeric_synergy
06-12-2014, 04:50 PM
+100 on that!
It' sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo aggravating! :devil:

I note that Jen's LALWUG presentations are plagued with this silliness-- knock it off, LW3dG!!!

It's that lack of polish that makes LW such a tough sell.....

Hail
06-13-2014, 07:24 AM
Hope the graph editor, Scene editor/dope sheet will be integrated into the main timeline to work together with a universal and efficient undo system!

Ztreem
06-13-2014, 08:35 AM
I hope that they bring a new foundation to LW by 12, the performance of LW is making it hard to work with. We where doing some renderings of a machine here at work that was around 120 000 000 polys and I can't even imagine loading that in Lightwave, luckily we had a guy that used maya and Vray for those shots.

Better performance for handling many and big objects both in terms of FPS and memory footprint then refinements to existing features and workflows would be most welcome.

jeric_synergy
06-13-2014, 08:52 AM
Hope the graph editor, Scene editor/dope sheet will be integrated into the main timeline to work together ....
??? IMO that's like saying "I hope my screwdriver is 'integrated' with my blowtorch": totally different tasks.

Ztreem
06-13-2014, 09:00 AM
How about: when the Node Editor opens, the destination node isn't off the edge of the editor window?

Yeah that's just crazy, it indicates that there is no quality control and makes the software feel less professional.

jeric_synergy
06-13-2014, 09:46 AM
Yeah that's just crazy, it indicates that there is no quality control and makes the software feel less professional.
Thank YOU for saying that: I'm pretty sure that LW3dG doesn't even hear my comments anymore.

There doesn't seem to be a 'culture' of UI rigor at Newtek/LW3dG: IMO there needs to be a son-of-a-****** with the authority to stop shipping if UI aspects are lacking in features.

Plus, there needs to be the canonical 'bulletin board' in the dev's (notional) bullpen, listing principles that every LW feature will, uhhhh, feature: multi-select, reversability, etc. It seems more laid-back than that: "It works OK, let's ship it!" is the feeling (not the actual process I realize). EG, there's so MANY obvious shortcomings in the Node Editor.

To be fair, I'm pretty sure that for a long time the toolkit used to make LW panels was a big shackle on their capabilities: people who should know told me that Panels couldn't do some of the simplest of tasks. Having that big anchor did not help, and that's a very UNglamorous part of the program to work on. But it's the plumbing in the house.

My hope is that a lot of the dev time has been in A) addressing that infrastructure and B) opening up the SDK so that everything, EVERYTHING is accessible. IOW, sadly, a lot of the work may only be visible to coders, but the payoff will be more/better plugins, and a faster evolution to the program.

pinkmouse
06-13-2014, 11:14 AM
I have a small, but equally as unlikely expectation of 11.7:

"Lightwave 11.7. The first version that actually spells Modeller correctly"

:D

jeric_synergy
06-13-2014, 11:38 AM
"Modeller"? That doesn't look right.

robertoortiz
06-13-2014, 11:46 AM
You know what would be revolutionry for me?
Hell And I think it would be a HUGE deal for Lightwave.

I would BEG the people at the LW3DG to simplyfy the way the Animation data is presented on screen in Layout.
Right now we have this insane interface that forces the user to open multiple pop-up windows just to get to one attribute.

I wish we had a tab based listing of items on screen (kinda like the main window in After Effects) that allows the ability to cut and paste attributes and assets with ease.
Just look on how a pro studio like Dream works is doing this...
http://www.theverge.com/2014/6/12/5804070/the-amazing-animation-software-behind-how-to-train-your-dragon-2
PS I amattaching a screenshot of one of my project to show what the heck i am talking about.

122324
(BTW I am not breaking any NDAs by posting this)

Hail
06-13-2014, 12:04 PM
??? IMO that's like saying "I hope my screwdriver is 'integrated' with my blowtorch"

But these tools are not screw drivers and blowtorches.. They are intelligent tools that need to communicate between one another to be more efficient unlike screw drivers and blowtorches.


totally different tasks.

Yes..they perform different tasks but those tasks are heavily related which is precisely why they need to be integrated.
Not only would that be cleaner on the UI, but it would also allow for faster access to these tools because there would be less jumping around with a bunch of floating pop ups.
This is exactly how C4D's animation layout works.
It gives you access to the graph, the non linear animation system and the dope sheet at the same time right under the timeline, so you can create and edit curves as well as re time keys or even create non linear animation without having to leave the window.
Hitting the space bar toggles between those editors.
Very clean and highly efficient!
This is a peak of how it looks
122325
122326

Now tell me you wouldn't want that in lw and I will commit seppuku:D:D

jwiede
06-13-2014, 12:41 PM
"Modeller"? That doesn't look right.
Different sides of the pond issue.

And yeah, I find how C4D handles fcurve editor, dope sheet, and timeline in animation layout _much_ more efficient than LW's multiple panel approach to accessing same info. LW's spreadsheet panel is an interesting attempt as well, but missing useful info present in C4D's animation layout, IMO.

jasonwestmas
06-13-2014, 04:53 PM
yes and project messiah works in a similar way to c4d as well (at least it would appear so). You can find the timeline dopesheet and curve editor all bundled together in the same UI. Probably should be a docking-undocking ability with that however. Anyway, the point being is that it's fast and convenient in my experience.

erikals
06-14-2014, 08:35 PM
yes and project messiah works in a similar way to c4d as well (at least it would appear so). You can find the timeline dopesheet and curve editor all bundled together in the same UI. Probably should be a docking-undocking ability with that however. Anyway, the point being is that it's fast and convenient in my experience.

sounds interesting... ! maybe something for LWG to look into...

jeric_synergy
06-14-2014, 11:19 PM
Ya'll have convinced me, although the nomenclature is something we differ on, esp "Timeline".

will2014
06-15-2014, 01:54 AM
I would like them to fix some of the tools such a extend edges that always crashes lightwave

sampei
06-15-2014, 07:24 AM
I have a small, but equally as unlikely expectation of 11.7:

"Lightwave 11.7. The first version that actually spells Modeller correctly"

:D

how about no? also colors > colours ! :hammer:

my most requested feature is a ray-tracing tab in the object properties panel with exclusion switches for shadows, reflections, transparency etc. extending to every object in the scene. Oh and also (in modeler) being able to anchor the Selection Info digits next to the mouse cursor!

jeric_synergy
06-15-2014, 09:00 AM
Arbitrary ordering of those things that can be arbitrarily ordered.

LIKE: subdivision order, motion dependencies, axes evaluation (H/P/B versus P/H/B)

vonpietro
06-15-2014, 12:23 PM
how about - vpr in modeler
really

simple 3 point or 2 point lighting defaults just to see the models

sampei
06-15-2014, 02:27 PM
got another impossible one, complete weight map tools-set in Layout, that would make fixing spikes and other horrors from poor displacement maps sooo fast...

jeric_synergy
06-15-2014, 02:37 PM
I think Sensei has a "display numeric w.map values in Layout" plugin...

erikals
06-15-2014, 03:57 PM
http://forums.newtek.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Sampei
got another impossible one, complete weight map tools-set in Layout,
that would make fixing spikes and other horrors from poor displacement maps sooo fast...

they're working on it, hopefully we see it in LightWave 12...
i said that about LightWave 11 as well, but i think it was delayed because of the Hydra Modeler engine
(just guessing...)

so, crossing fingers... :l

jeric_synergy
06-15-2014, 05:20 PM
Maybe we should try to stay within 11.7 borders..... just tweeks, not huge features.

Like: get the Content Directory issues sorted for once. (i.e., saving a CFG file shouldn't affect anything but CFG saving.)

sampei
06-15-2014, 05:24 PM
they're working on it, hopefully we see it in LightWave 12...
i said that about LightWave 11 as well, but i think it was delayed because of the Hydra Modeler engine
(just guessing...)

so, crossing fingers... :l

sounds good to me, I'll be waiting !


I think Sensei has a "display numeric w.map values in Layout" plugin...

that sounds better than having nothing but I'd still have to F12 my way back to modeler, basically say there's a vertex being spiked from the mesh by a black or white artifact on the map, I'd select that vertex in layout and set a value of 100 for the relevant weight map; this vmap is then used as input parameter for a gradient that acts as a displacement mask. Would be great to do it in any lws, just two steps and immediate feedback rather than the current back and forth.

jeric_synergy
06-15-2014, 05:45 PM
Absolutely agreed.

Kryslin
06-15-2014, 10:29 PM
Hmm, most of the things on my wish list are not point release items, but...
(Weight mapping in Layout, eliminating the deferred motion bug with node editors, consistency of control interfaces, stuff like that...)

How about updating some of the motion plugins so they have a documented com ring interface (simple position/rotation/scale constraints, follower)? This helps Genoma, and any other autorigging script that make use of those plugins.

Also, work on some of the long standing quirks in lScript, and make sure they're not in the Python bindings as well...

jeric_synergy
06-15-2014, 11:41 PM
Here's a point release wishlist:
Edit Edges needs a conspicuous, characteristic cursor, just like most tools. Right now, TMK/AFAICT it has no specific cursor whatsoever.

Sensei
06-17-2014, 07:14 AM
I think Sensei has a "display numeric w.map values in Layout" plugin...

Show Weights and Show Edge Weights is plugin for Modeler.

It displays them parallel to LW working at the same time.
You can spin viewports, make geometry etc. working like normal and weight map values are continuously displayed.
http://modelingpack.trueart.eu
Videos of this tool are available in plugin web page.

lightscape
06-18-2014, 02:11 PM
Easier, faster way to match and model in camera. Always time consuming in lightwave.
http://www.ronenbekerman.com/making-nylenne-gallery/

Hail
06-19-2014, 11:13 AM
Agreed!
And corrective morphing too:(

Greenlaw
06-19-2014, 12:19 PM
I think Sensei has a "display numeric w.map values in Layout" plugin...
Yes, I use it often. It may seem very simple feature but it's incredibly useful. IMO, this kind of visual feedback should should be standard.

And not just in Modeler--TBH, I would rather to see all the weight map creation and editing tools brought into Layout. It's ridiculous having to repeatedly jump back and forth between the two programs when working on or tweaking a rigged character, Bullet Dynamics or surface based Instances.

Greenlaw
06-19-2014, 12:29 PM
Agreed!
And corrective morphing too:(

I've been using the method described by Dodgy in his tutorial. It uses the mesh editing tools in SoftFX to edit Endomorphs and Joint Morphs on a rigged/posed character and it works really well. For more info about Dodgy's SoftFX method, go here:

http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?137894-Creating-a-corrective-morph-using-Chronosculpt&p=1384541&viewfull=1#post1384541

This method is a whole heckuva lot better and easier than blindly jumping between the two apps--highly recommended.

That said, I too would like to see standard Modeler mesh and vmap editing tools in Layout, even if it was only a limited set.

G.

jeric_synergy
06-19-2014, 12:51 PM
There definitely needs to be less, or zero, jumping back and forth. Modeler as a MODE would be fine, but even then I'd want to paint w.maps in real time in context, i.e. in Layout.

valu
06-19-2014, 09:55 PM
Serious work on Fiber Fx , cloth dinamics and a real snap in all the modeling tools ( BG snap included ).
A faster render on SSS for alow us to work in film scale without a one year render per frame .

sampei
06-20-2014, 02:46 PM
I've given up of fiberFX after wasting way too much time trying to get something passable out of it, recently I've been using 3ds-max hair&fur modifier with pHair_tk mental ray shader and haven't looked back. For instance this was rendered in max (no hair farm) with the native modifier and a free mr shader: http://vimeo.com/36682584 (credits:Petr Chegodaev)
ps.I'd love to be wrong about ffx but I need evidence
:gotpics:

Emmanuel
06-20-2014, 03:06 PM
Looks nice, but the hairline is bad, the strands are too thick. Nice shading, tho.

Sensei
06-20-2014, 03:07 PM
It's flickering a lot IMHO..

sampei
06-20-2014, 03:51 PM
Looks nice, but the hairline is bad, the strands are too thick. Nice shading, tho.
can't see anything blatantly "bad" about that hairline and I think you are being fooled by tufts being too dense because if you look at individual hair it's not too thick at all. In any case my point was show me something on that level in ffx, it might not be perfect but it's a damn good effort. Agree to disagree. I do see some micro crawling but it might be video compression or some other setting (ii?), in any case I still think it's very good.

Greenlaw
06-20-2014, 04:52 PM
I've given up of fiberFX...ps.I'd love to be wrong about ffx but I need evidence
:gotpics:

This is what I'm using FiberFX for these days:

'Brudders 2' excerpt (work-in-progress) (http://vimeo.com/68543424)

We're hoping to finish this music video by the end of summer but freelance work comes first.

The very first project I used FiberFX on was a theatrical Devil May Cry trailer using Lightwave 11.5.1. At the time (maybe three years ago?), I had to jump through a few hoops to make it work but I think it turned out just fine. You can see parts of it at the end of my demo reel:

Greenlaw's Demo Reel (http://vimeo.com/64145283)

For DmC, I created the wigs for all the human characters primarily using the tools in Modeler. Dante's hair is a combination of FiberFX using surface mode and modeled guides (for dynamics). (This job was done before I learned how to use ZBrush FiberMesh which is what I would use nowadays to create the long hair guides for characters like the little girls and the demonic twins.) The final hair was rendered using FiberFX. I think you can still see the full trailer elsewhere on the internet.

More recently, I saw some beautiful FiberFX work by Khalid here: Escape from Kong (http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?142088-%91the-escape-from-kong%92&highlight=kong)

G.

sampei
06-20-2014, 05:19 PM
thanks greenlaw for the detailed post, I really like you work however I have a few issues with those examples since I was asking for realistic hair and most of the stuff is on the stylized side. Those cats fur looks nice and is perfect for the models but it's a cartoon look. Also the little girl hair looks excellent from a distance but then you zoom in and it has that ffx look...you know what I mean. Also, esp. in regards to that dmc trailer, it's hard to make an honest assessment by freezing frames from videos where there's tons of camera movement, dof, post effects and so on. Ideally to make a reasonable comparison you'd need an example of it used on a realistic portrait. I do think your making the best use of it I've seen so far though, so props to you. By the way has ffx changed much from lw 10 to 11 ? stuck with 10 here...

Greenlaw
06-20-2014, 05:46 PM
Oh, the 'little girl' I was referring to is the character in the full DmC trailer, not 'Sister' from Brudders. I didn't include the DmC girl on my demo reel but if you search around for the full trailer, you can see her there. There were also two scantily clad long haired female characters in DmC that I used FiberFX on in that trailer. I agree, the crazy camera motions and dark lighting makes it difficult to see the hair on any of the characters--maybe I can post some of the character sheet renders. Will think about that.

Here a little more of Sister and her hair. This was the very first motion and hair test I did for the character from about a year and a half ago.:

Sister Motion Test (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jASC8IOsIqY)

Also, my friends at the Asylum used it for a 'talking puppies' movie last year, and they used it for some werewolf creatures before that.

I'm not saying any of the examples shown meets your requirements for what FiberFX should look like. I was just pointing out a couple of examples where FiberFX has been perfectly suitable on the productions where I used it. IMO, the FiberFX 'look' is pretty flexible and it doesn't have to look 'cartoony' if you don't want it to. :)

G.

Greenlaw
06-20-2014, 06:06 PM
Just to be clear, I'm not saying FiberFX is the perfect hair system--it's certainly much better than it was way back in version 9.6 but TBH it still has a few limitations that I'd like to see overcome (discussed elsewhere and already fogbugzed.) That said, a number of LightWave artists have demonstrated that FiberFX is usable for real world production right now.

Re: FiberFX for LW 10 vs LW 11.5.x, yes, there is a big difference between the these version. The most significant change is that vmaps are now stored in the .lwo file instead of .lws. IMO, this improved stability quite a lot and it made exchanging data between scenes easier and more predictable. It also means you can store multiple styles in a single file (though I've had sketchy results with this feature, so for now I keep to one hair style per file.)

Unfortunately there is a problem with rendering animated fibers in 11.6.3 (documented elsewhere in these forums.) Hopefully, this will be fixed in an upcoming release.

G.

sampei
06-20-2014, 06:28 PM
once again thank you Greenlaw for shedding some light on this, I appreciate it very much and be assured that I have nothing but respect for your professional experience and the work that you posted :thumbsup: I wasn't saying that ffx has a cartoony look, maybe I worded it badly, I was referring to the look you see when few fibers overlap...basically it looks quite fuzzy, for example in the test you posted the hair looks good but when you look at it's outer contour it looks blurry. From my tests I recall it also looked odd at the tips despite trying for weeks to get it right. If you want I can post a screenshot to illustrate this, that's why I said "you know what I mean". I wasn't saying that it can't be used in production either, but just my experience in trying to create something realistic for a close-up has been negative and that I've never seen it done. Gonna search for those talking puppies now :)

Greenlaw
06-20-2014, 06:45 PM
Sure, no prob. BTW, I found the DmC trailer here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kODz7j8sB7I#t=91

Unfortunately, most of the shots were heavily post processed and 'shaken up' in a way that you really can't tell what the hair looked like. This happened after the footage left the Box--we're not sure why the client felt it was necessary but whatever.

Alisa and I will be starting another short film after we finish B2, which will be our first 'non-Brudders' short. This one will be a cartoon as well but it will feature two human characters with long FiberFX hair which will be designed to look more or less 'realistic'. I'll try not to shake the camera so much for this one. :p

G.

jwiede
06-20-2014, 07:06 PM
How about some realistic-shaded FFX-produced hair that isn't black or near-black in color?

Greenlaw
06-20-2014, 07:16 PM
The little girl in the DmC trailer is blonde. Although it may be hard to tell because...blah, blah, blah. :)

sampei
06-20-2014, 07:16 PM
Alisa and I will be starting another short film after we finish B2, which will be our first 'non-Brudders' short. This one will be a cartoon as well but it will feature two human characters with long FiberFX hair which will be designed to look more or less 'realistic'. I'll try not to shake the camera so much for this one. :p
G.
I'm looking forward to it. I'd be curious to see you try a short hair style too.
To be honest the back-and-forth between max and lw can be a real pain that's why I tried hard to make ffx work, but it just wasn't cutting it so I'm still disappointed...wasted many hours trying to make a decent buzz-cut, which I was thinking would be quite easy to get right (since it's the most basic hairstyle) only to find myself lost and trying to figure out how to fix those dreadful results. Talking about it makes me wanna try again...it's been a while now. One thing I do like is strand modeler which I use as a modeling tool quite often.

jeric_synergy
06-21-2014, 12:24 AM
::sigh:: Full on wish lists are nice and all, but what about the tiny DOT upgrade the title refers to?

+0.1. that's all. Low Hanging Fruit, please. (LHF)

I'd like the Content Dir issues (mentioned and fogbugzed) rectified.

hrgiger
06-21-2014, 02:52 AM
Unfortunately, the overall impression of FFX that I've gathered (and my own personal experience) is that FFX still needs work to be a user friendly hair system. I'm hoping that it receives much attention in the next few updates of LW.

jeric_synergy
06-21-2014, 09:50 AM
hrgiger, is it your opinion that all the pieces are in place, but that the UI is rubbish, or something different.

My feeling is that something very fundamental about the FFX SCALE is wrong. One can get good results, but the meshes that work are not RW scale. This is maddening.

Greenlaw
06-21-2014, 10:21 AM
Yes, for now, I'll be happy with just a few fixes too. :)

jeric_synergy
06-21-2014, 11:26 AM
LHF/ 0.1 improvements:

OK, I was just watching HRGiger's dolphin tutes and it reminded me of a simple feature that would help MODELERS (remember how we've all been [email protected] about Modeling?):

IIRC, the data structure of *.LWO files are in a "chunking" style that allows for easy addition of chunks. I'd like a new element or chunk that embeds the background image config PATH/FILENAME in the *.lwo file. For all the kneejerk h8rs out there, this is a REFERENCE, not the actual image data. (Applications that don't understand a chunk simply ignore it.)

Then, when you are using reference images to model, instead of hunting the appropriate config files down OVER AND OVER AND OVER, they'd simply load with the mesh.

That we have to manually do this is just frickin' insane. :mad: Shoulda been done in 5.6, when I first requested it. 8~

ED: FINE, don't want to amend the *.lwo definition? Stick the reference in COMMENT field in a SURFACE, and write a plugin that loads it.

Greenlaw
06-21-2014, 12:01 PM
I'm looking forward to it. I'd be curious to see you try a short hair style too.

Dante's hair is pretty short. I used surface based FiberFX for the 'buzz cut' parts and guides for the longer bits on top. This setup also made it easier to apply dynamics. The banker's hair is about as short as you can get--at one point, his eyebrow hairs were longer than his head hair but the rigger didn't have time to rig the eyebrows so I think it was just painted on in the final renders.

In the past I used FiberFX strand modeler for characters in game trailers and cinematics (Bourne, Dangerous Hunts, Saboteur, and more.) Before DmC, I had only used Sasquatch for fiber renders and since DmC, I've only used FibeFX. In the past I used Sasquatch for short and long haired creatures and cartoon characters for trailers for Banjo Kazooie, Crash Bandicoot, Fable 2, Dangerous Hunts, and many other 'creature features'. More recently, I'm using short hair FiberFX for Sergeant Marshmallow and Toullie in our Brudders films (as seen above.)

I think that covers a fairly wide range of animated hair and fur application in Lightwave. If you look around, there are other artists doing some really cool stuff with FiberFX too.

For the past year, I've mostly been animating hairless creatures for third party productions, but I hope to be getting back to my own projects soon. The best way to keep up on what I've been doing with FiberFX, check out the 'B2' thread (http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?133274-The-Brudders-2-Production-Log-%28Well-sort-of-%29) in these forums. I haven't updated it lately but there should be some activity coming soon.

G.

Greenlaw
06-21-2014, 12:25 PM
Okay, here are some FiberFX pics. Please note that I only did the hair in these pics--the character modeling and texturing was done by other artists involved with the production.

First is an example of thinning hair using FiberFX.

122495

Greenlaw
06-21-2014, 12:30 PM
Short hair example using FiberFX.

122496

Greenlaw
06-21-2014, 12:34 PM
Blonde FiberFX.

122497

Greenlaw
06-21-2014, 12:47 PM
Long brown FiberFX. Decided to show only this view because the rest of the hair on other side is kind of ridiculous. :p

122498

I mainly used the old rail cloning trick in Modeler to create the guides, which still works really well. The same technique was used for 'blondie'. (FiberMesh had just come out at this time but I didn't have time to learn it for this production.)

For the short hair example above, I used a combo of surface based fibers and Strand Modeler guides, and for 'baldy' at the top, it was just guides created with Strand Modeler. In general, I like to use at least two layers of FiberFX, a longer hair layer and a short fuzzy 'fill' layer--this is the same method I used with Sasquatch way back when.

Yes, I realize these characters are not 100% realistic but they were not meant to be either. Plus, as usual, we were on a very tight deadline for this project.

Anyway, I hope this covers it.

G.

erikals
06-21-2014, 01:02 PM
http://forums.newtek.com/images/misc/quote_icon.pngGreenlaw
I mainly used the old rail cloning trick in Modeler to create the guides...

that's the trick where you create a 2pp chain by adding 2pp to the scalp, the rail extruding using multiple paths, right... ?

Greenlaw
06-21-2014, 01:09 PM
Last notes: that project was done using FiberFX in 11.5...maybe a little earlier. FiberFX has changed a bit since then--a few things got better and a few things got 'broken' in recent releases. For example, I don't think I can create the 'flattened' locks seen in the short hair example above with more recent versions of FiberFX--now FiberFX will always try to create 'round' locks. Apparently, I was exploiting a 'bug' when I set up that short hair style, but I did put in a request to make this style an option in a future release. Hopefully, we'll see that and other fixes/improvements in the near future. :)

G.

erikals
06-21-2014, 01:19 PM
looks great though... http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/smile.gif

higher render settings would improve the hair render quality i assume

Greenlaw
06-21-2014, 01:29 PM
that's the trick where you create a 2pp chain by adding 2pp to the scalp, the rail extruding using multiple paths, right... ?

Yes. There's a very good tutorial for this technique by Stuart Aitken over at the Worley Labs website. These days I like to use FiberMesh for creating guides, although there are a few issues to deal with when using FiberMesh with FiberFX. They mainly involve the lack of vmaps with FiberMesh guides and I think I covered how to work around this in the B2 thread mentioned earlier.

The new FiberFX Edit Guides works well too and, depending on what you need, it may have a few advantages over FiberMesh. (Note: I'm referring to 11.5.1--I haven't used FiberFX Edit Guides in 11.6.x yet so I don't know if it's changed.) FYI, unlike in LW 11 and earlier, you must save your object when using Edit Guides because the vmap data gets saved in the .lwo file, not the .lws. This is one of the changes that seems to trip up a lot of users who haven't used FiberFX for a while--it is explained in the manual though. :)

G

hrgiger
06-21-2014, 01:47 PM
hrgiger, is it your opinion that all the pieces are in place, but that the UI is rubbish, or something different.

My feeling is that something very fundamental about the FFX SCALE is wrong. One can get good results, but the meshes that work are not RW scale. This is maddening.

I could handle the UI with maybe a few more tweaks...certainly not my biggest complaint.

My issues with FFX are more to do with the look of the hair itself. FFX always seems to have a wispy look I don't care for, probably to do with the fact that FFX makes thinning hair more transparent instead of actually...well thinner.

The fact that its so scale sensitive is another issue that has caused lots of problems. I've noticed in some cases that depending on the scale of your object, certain settings have sweet spots. Anything above or below those values can often give you undesirable effects.

I feel there is something off about the shading of FFX fibers. I don't believe they always respond to Light and shadow as they should. Which sends me into endless tweaking marathons to try and improve the look of the hair.

I recently rendered a turntable of some FFX fibers and it flickered quite wildly. That may have been partially my settings but I've heard of others still getting flickering with it.

Greenlaw's examples above are not bad but I've yet to see some really nice rich looking hair from ffx.

sampei
06-21-2014, 01:49 PM
Greenlaw your input is much appreciated however all of these shots suffer from the usual ffx look. Fibers look fine from a distance but as soon as you get close hair units melt together in that sort of blur, apparent at the outer limit...this is especially noticeable on the dante scalp, but present in every render. It's clear as day. For example, for the little girl it almost looks like the hair pass has been cloned, overlayed and offset on itself...or motion blurred. Single hair units don't stand out as they should, hair strips look more like brush strokes and the whole thing just looks odd. It can work for stylized characters but falls apart on a realistic model. There are also problems with transparency, apparent when few hair overlay other hair in a different direction, not sure if that can be adjusted or not. On black shiny hair it's less noticeable, that's why the hair on your other character looked good. Although I doubt a close-up would hold up all that well. The semi-bald man looks reasonable from the front but from lateral and posterior aspect you can see some oddly thick grey fibers, not sure if its multiple units being merged? In any case they still look like paint strokes.
These renders basically all but confirmed my thoughts about ffx.

Greenlaw
06-21-2014, 01:54 PM
FWIW, the characters above and in all projects I've worked on have been in real world scale. They have to be, otherwise your dynamics will be wonky.

I think all fiber systems are scale sensitive. Sasquatch certainly was. As for FiberFX, I remember when I was working on DmC, I got one of the models at Maya scale and didn't realize it until I started putting the character in a scene. Luckily, I didn't find it was a big deal to scale the settings back to 'normal' size again.

G.

Greenlaw
06-21-2014, 02:02 PM
I think I understand what you mean. The 'painterly look' is because by default FiberFX renders as a pixel filter, which more or less is paint strokes. (Personally, I don't find that objectionable, but I digress...) I think you can get a harder look by using volumetric mode but you pay a price in render times because now you're rendering with actual geometry. For me, it's not worth it because of the time and budget constraints I normally work under. On most productions I work on, spending more than 15 minutes to render an HD frame is frowned upon, so this is what you get. (I'm actually even tougher about render times on our LGD own productions because of our teeny tiny render farm.) :p

Anyway, that's all I have to say on the subject. Moving on.

G.

erikals
06-21-2014, 07:16 PM
i also think it has to do with relying on too "low" settings,
some suggestions,

-make sure you use enough specularity / reflection
-use multiple lights and multiple colored lights (for example 8 lights)
-if using GI, use high render settings

some old FiberFX examples >

http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?88583-young-Hero&p=1387605#post1387605
http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?118864-Mad-Colonel

sampei
06-21-2014, 07:40 PM
hate to repeat myself but still no, first example has better separation at the front but is still plagued by those blur and transparency issues and the short sideburn hairs just look off while in the second render despite fibers being blurred by dof (possibly in post) you can still see these sort of painterly blurry tufts on the left. Once again these hair passes might look ok from a distance or concealed by dof but close ups do not hold up and that ffx look is immediately evident imo. I also think certain hair styles do a better job of hiding the system's limitations but every example posted so far has confirmed my opinion, it just isn't capable of delivering what I want. Sorry to beat on a dead horse, I think it might be best to stop hijacking this thread with ffx talk.

erikals
06-21-2014, 08:12 PM
the blurry part is post, yes, not FiberFX
separation and thickness at the front is fixed by adding a second independent layer of FiberFX hair in the front.
the sideburn needs more work, but doubt this is FiberFX itself, could be wrong though

this said, no FFX Pro, you have to note though, that was FiberFX in version 9.5 (!)
tons of things have been fixed since then...

one thing that hasn't been fixed is a good FiberFX video tutorial... :° :]

sampei
06-21-2014, 09:03 PM
don't know what improvements have taken place, just giving my honest feedback...as hrgiger said, there are flaws with some core aspects of how fibers are rendered and all the examples posted so far confirmed it. As far as the sideburns, a few years back I've tried to create a buzz-cut which should be easy enough to get right and wasted much time with results that weren't any better than that example. Don't remember if it was 9.6 or 10.1. Look at the Dante render as it has short hair and again it's a blur and that was with 11.5 by someone who has spent serious amounts of time testing and learning ffx tech to use it in production. What I find strange, is you can even get things like tressFX which is a real time solution and imo looks better than any renders in ffx, a system which has been around for almost 7 years. If I'm not mistaken newtek had a few good introductory videos but as far as more advanced stuff there wasn't much around last time I checked. There are a few threads with tons of info and tests by Greenlaw and a few others so if someone wanted, a primer could be made out of those with some patience. Apparently I can't shut up about this :|

Kryslin
06-21-2014, 09:12 PM
My biggest problem with FFX isn't with long hair w/guides - FFX does that well. It's with short, dense coats of fur, as found on dogs, cats, rabbits, etc. - with textured patterns. Some of Mr. Greenlaw's suggestions work well to get fast coverage, but absolutely destroy a textured pattern. Or, I can kill render times by increasing "Relax", each level effectively doubling render times. Somewhere between the two lies the answer.

Also, the scale problem hits me from odd angles; I can get decent enough fur on a test box, 1m x 1m x 1m. However, I can't get decent coverage on a real world sized cat.

Styling for procedurally generated fur is wonky as well. Getting fur to flow away from the nose of a critter and then flow down the limbs - without going in and editing guides - is a painful exercise. Unfortunately, the reason to use procedurally generated fur is to not have a 15-20K guides on the model. I'd kill for Bias Combing from Sasquatch in FFX (-Y, Away from surface, etc).

So, a FiberFX wishlist:
-Fix Scale Issues. (I can get good coverage on a 1m^3 box. I can't get good coverage on a house cat model)
-Bias Combing based on Surface, Directional Vector, etc.
-Color Mixer node similar to the one embedded in the FiberFX UI.
-A warning message if your mesh has 1 and 2 pt polygons that FFX doesn't know what to do with in it - A sure way to make FiberFX crash in 32 Bit, and not work in 64bit is to have 1 and 2pt polygons in there. Ideally, if the polygons/chains don't have the appropriate tags, they should be ignored by the plugin. However, a warning and not installing is a good interim measure (and avoids a crash / non functional plugin)

jeric_synergy
06-21-2014, 11:57 PM
Sampei, if you have the time, scale up your meshes by a factor of 10 (ten) and see if you get more satisfactory results.

jeric_synergy
06-22-2014, 12:41 AM
Another LHF/0.1 enhancement:

How about a UNIFIED Menu/Keys/Plugins Editor?

Wouldn't it be nice to be able to edit your hotkeys AND your menus together? You could see how the keys relate to your menus right there, while you're thinking about it.

"Of course, Jeric", you say, "that's obvious to the most lackluster of intellect. But what's that 'plugins' doing in there, prithee?"

Oftentimes I, and YMMV, would find it convenient to know what file a plugin comes from, to better insert it into the menus, and also to know how many plugins a file EXPANDS into (that is: a single plugin FILE can result in multiple plugins listed in the interface). It comes up regularly-- for instance, right now I now that for some reason I have 2 "Assign Pivot" s listed in my Menu editor: I'd like to track them down RIGHT THERE, while I'm looking at it.

For instance, say you SEARCH for "ASSIGN GOAL"-- this Unified Editor would:

show you where it is in the menus
show you the hotkey assigned
show you the file (if any) the function came from, and the original name of the function

All without leaving the same, comfy editor.

Also, a unified editor would ADD Search to the EDIT PLUGINS panel, which currently has no search functionality at all. This is low hanging fruit indeed, since I bet a lot of the same code could be used that is already in use for the HOTKEY and MENU editors.

raw-m
06-22-2014, 07:49 AM
Here's one that been driving me crazy this week. Batch copy/pasting of Motion Modifiers and then changing settings en masse. I was using Relativity on quite a few items, a MASSIVE bottleneck is firstly getting the modifier on each object via copy/paste. Making a change is then hindered further by then having to copy/paste the changes again. Relativity has a couple of option within it that makes this a slightly less painful process, but the point still stands, esp for Nodal motion.

Not sure if this is a point release thing or something more substantial, but would like to see it addressed soon.

jeric_synergy
06-22-2014, 08:56 AM
I've seen this request before, and AGREED, it's huge PITA.

Perhaps something like the ASSIGN TOOLS, which apparently are scripts, could alleviate this situation, although it seems to be a generalized weakness. Maybe something in the 'spreadsheet'?

Too much information hiding....

jasonwestmas
06-22-2014, 09:35 AM
lol en-masse is not a lightwave word at all. :) Which is why you'll hear people call Lightwave their beloved swiss army knife.

There have been some improvements with the item editors like being able to select multiple items and apply the same settings to those.

jeric_synergy
06-22-2014, 09:59 AM
I thought the SPREADSHEET would evolve along those lines, precisely to address the "en-masse" issue, but the implementation was so rubbish that it never seemed to gain currency.

Personally, and YMMV, but those teeny tiny microfricking checkboxes really turned me off. Fitt's Law, baby.

RebelHill
06-22-2014, 10:28 AM
The problem with most of the motion modifiers, custom objects, etc, is that they can only be "operated" via the comring... there's no "direct line" to their settings or functions. What this winds up doing is leaving you in an all or nothing situation when accessing them via script (for those that you actually can communicate with)... so you have to set ALL their parameters at once, and you cant query the current settings.

This makes any multiselection editing of them impossible, and since this a something of a by product of the way they themselves hook in to layout, its not like they themselves can just be tinkered with to allow it. Whats needed is a wholesale update of the parts of layout these tools plug into, plus , by extension, a reworking of all those tools to fit the new method.

This is just one of those features of LWs architecture that needs a complete overhaul, which amounts to a rewrite of LW itself in the long run.

And so we're back to the same ol conundrum... either stop work on existing LW and create something entirely new (which was attemted and failed), or go through rewriting "chunks" at a time, having to make them backwards compatible with untouched areas of LW whilst planning to keep them forward compatible with other areas yet to be rewritten (which may not be possible unless you already know in advance how those parts will eventually be redone). And this approach has only one result... extremely slow and stunted progress.

LW has gotten itself painted into a corner at the end of the day, and there's not a lot that it can do to get out of it in any kind of time efficient manner.

jeric_synergy
06-22-2014, 11:30 AM
LOW HANGING FRUIT/ 0.1 enhancements

#awayFromLW
Well, maybe this would be too much as it would 'break' a BUNCH of tutorials, but: I was just watching a tutorial by DWBurman (Dana) and noticed the usual mess that is a LW panel, in this case a particle effects panel.

What really jumped out at me was the ridiculously LARGE (for a change) size in the available numeric fields. While LW skimps on field size in many many areas, they are usually alphanumeric fields, i.e. names. Apparently there was a sale on the length of numeric fields, however, because they are crazily oversize.

I'm #awayFromLW right now, but it looks like these fields could take at least 9 digits. I'm pretty sure they could be put on a diet and the panel benefit from the extra room, with no impact on usability.

WHile I'd like the particle system panels to be cleaned up, for me at least the Layout Options panel, with its many tabs, is the one that really cries out for re-arrangement: there's not even room for the tabs without brutal abbreviation occurring. Can't it be expanded by a mere 50% and significantly decluttered?

sampei
06-22-2014, 08:40 PM
Sampei, if you have the time, scale up your meshes by a factor of 10 (ten) and see if you get more satisfactory results.
sorry for the late reply, appreciate the suggestion but I remember trying that and it's definitely not it (besides I was working on unscaled mudbox meshes which are huge). As far as I'm concerned there is no solution, some of the most experienced LW users have already gotten the best results possible out of the system, that's the ceiling until I see evidence of the contrary. Also if I'm not mistaken there's no way to get passes from ffx, the proverbial nail on the coffin. In any case I'm not going to waste any more time on it, learned hair&fur modifier which is brutally superior and been happy with results so far. If I didn't have 3dsmax I'd probably just get modo and be done for good with FBX and F12 migraines! that'd be damn sweet
:foreheads

jeric_synergy
06-22-2014, 10:11 PM
Oy, sorry. I may put a lot more energy into C4DL, since I've got it free w/AECC and around here that's what gets one paychecks.

Greenlaw
06-23-2014, 12:22 AM
Also if I'm not mistaken there's no way to get passes from ffx, the proverbial nail on the coffin...

Actually...oh, nevermind...I said I was done with the topic. :)

G.

sampei
06-23-2014, 04:35 AM
Actually...oh, nevermind...I said I was done with the topic. :)

G.

don't see why not, someone else might benefit from that info :)
how do you split passes then, filter node editors?

Ernest
06-23-2014, 04:54 AM
I think I understand what you mean. The 'painterly look' is because by default FiberFX renders as a pixel filter, which more or less is paint strokes.

That makes sense, since so many hair renderers in so many packages have just the same painterly look. The strange thing is that Sasquatch was also a pixel filter and it did not have that artifact, not even with a single light. How was Worley able to avoid it so many, many, many years ago? (PS: I'm not asking you personally; I know you're done with the topic).

sampei
06-23-2014, 05:18 AM
not sure I understand that point either, paint strokes can also look realistic if fine enough..

Greenlaw
06-23-2014, 10:09 AM
don't see why not, someone else might benefit from that info :)
how do you split passes then, filter node editors?

I was starting to sound like a broken record and didn't want to continue hijacking this thread. Over the years I've covered everything I've written above and more regarding FiberFX in a few other threads in this forum. The info really isn't that hard to find--other Lightwave artists have covered this topic as well. :)

G.

P.S., If I can make the time this week, I'll post some info in the B2 thread. (I'm not sure but it might have already been discussed there too.)

sampei
06-23-2014, 10:39 AM
I've had a look the other day, only found a post of yours saying you got a hair pass the traditional way or something along those lines...while I was asking if you can get separate passes for rgb, spec, diffuse and so forth. There's even a thread asking the same thing from 2012 with no answers. Can it be done or not?

jeric_synergy
06-23-2014, 07:29 PM
Another small Modeler tweek:

Does it annoy anyone but me that, when you are using a creation tool in LWM, such as BOX (but many others) , you must have ALREADY created the UV map? I'd much prefer to be able to create a UV map WHILE I'm in the midst of {whatever}.

erikals
06-23-2014, 07:50 PM
sort of, there's no point in having that button there, is it... ?

wouldn't it be better to remove it...?

the button doesn't auto-create it so there is little point, unless i misunderstood...

jeric_synergy
06-23-2014, 08:13 PM
The button decides whether the new points are added to the designated UV map. If the button is on, they are. If the button is off, they are not.

It's an awkward workflow IMO.

jwiede
06-23-2014, 08:35 PM
Greenlaw your input is much appreciated however all of these shots suffer from the usual ffx look. Fibers look fine from a distance but as soon as you get close hair units melt together in that sort of blur, apparent at the outer limit...this is especially noticeable on the dante scalp, but present in every render. It's clear as day. For example, for the little girl it almost looks like the hair pass has been cloned, overlayed and offset on itself...or motion blurred. Single hair units don't stand out as they should, hair strips look more like brush strokes and the whole thing just looks odd. It can work for stylized characters but falls apart on a realistic model. There are also problems with transparency, apparent when few hair overlay other hair in a different direction, not sure if that can be adjusted or not. On black shiny hair it's less noticeable, that's why the hair on your other character looked good. Although I doubt a close-up would hold up all that well. The semi-bald man looks reasonable from the front but from lateral and posterior aspect you can see some oddly thick grey fibers, not sure if its multiple units being merged? In any case they still look like paint strokes.
These renders basically all but confirmed my thoughts about ffx.
QFA - he hit pretty much every point I had as well.

I thought the blonde girl's hair looked particularly odd -- flat, and lacking any realistic layered lustre or shine/spec, yet with an odd bulky feel in a "bad" way. FFX hair shading just doesn't seem to behave properly with light in general, generally most visible in "translucent" shading cases (like blonde hair).

jasonwestmas
06-23-2014, 08:55 PM
yes I don't really care for the blurry airbrush look for ffx closeups. Especially the ffx specular shading, it's not very believable.

lightscape
06-24-2014, 01:21 AM
Hair for gpu created via maya and 3dmax

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFWr44ZIEZc

Simon-S
06-24-2014, 06:44 AM
A feature high on my want list is edge/vertex smoothing that is per vertex based rather than per surface.

I use Lightwave to make game content and the smoothing we currently have leaves lightwave way behind other packages.

jeric_synergy
06-24-2014, 05:31 PM
One thing I haven't seen anybody talk about is the new STYLE of various tools, such as the AXIS TRANSLATE or TWEAK, that seem to indicate some fairly substantial infrastructure change: the selection preview, the onscreen hints, nobody's talked about them at all TMK.

My hope is that they are indicative of some libraries that have been developed for Modeler, and that these facilities will be accessible to plugin writers for enhancing their work. To me, that has been a very encouraging developement.

In fact, I hope they sort of propagate "backwards" into standard LW existing tools.

jwiede
06-24-2014, 05:57 PM
One thing I haven't seen anybody talk about is the new STYLE of various tools, such as the AXIS TRANSLATE or TWEAK, that seem to indicate some fairly substantial infrastructure change: the selection preview, the onscreen hints, nobody's talked about them at all TMK.

If you're talking about the tools with built-in previewing, on-screen pre-highlighting, etc. I believe you're referring to the same tools which David Ikeda referred to as a "developmental dead-end" in the now-gone posts from him on tool development. Paraphrased from memory, he basically said it wound up being impractical to try and maintain the same tool contracts as existing tools used, while supporting all the modern whiz-bang functionality users wanted -- those tools were his prototypes attempting that approach, and the effort they required was too extreme to scale into a practical development plan replacing everything that needed replacement.

Put more simply, if the same tools David Ikeda meant, hopes for further are misplaced.

jeric_synergy
06-24-2014, 06:08 PM
??? Isn't it usual that that type of programming ESTABLISHES the tools (libs, subroutines) required to build those features?

It sounds like they're tossing a lot of work. I'm baffled.

jwiede
06-24-2014, 06:19 PM
??? Isn't it usual that that type of programming ESTABLISHES the tools (libs, subroutines) required to build those features?

It sounds like they're tossing a lot of work. I'm baffled.

Last I checked, the tools were included in LW11, so what work exactly is it that you're suggesting is being "tossed"?

cresshead
06-24-2014, 06:24 PM
Hair for gpu created via maya and 3dmax

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFWr44ZIEZc

I'd prefer that hair was harder to do too....makes me much more of an "artist" if i have to slave for a day/week/month rather than this click click done nonsense :)
waay too easy and good looking.

jeric_synergy
06-24-2014, 07:10 PM
Last I checked, the tools were included in LW11, so what work exactly is it that you're suggesting is being "tossed"?
"Dead end", "too extreme" -- doesn't that imply that approach is being abandoned? That infrastructure, that is.

jeric_synergy
06-25-2014, 01:48 AM
FINE CONTROL KEYPRESS:

Some applications let you reduce your mouse adjustments by a factor of 10 when you hold down a specified key.

After just fighting ROTATE (one is practically FORCED to use the Numeric Panel for small adjustments), I'd >>really<< like this feature in LWM, although I'm not sure what key could be pressed into surface.

THAT, or a interactive ROTATE numeric input. --Wait, am I going to find one of the "new" tools (anything after 2001 for me) already does this?

jeric_synergy
06-25-2014, 08:35 AM
11.7 = Mouse Wheel Zoom? (LWM)

11.7 = Arrow Keys numeric field incrementing?

vncnt
06-25-2014, 10:54 AM
FINE CONTROL KEYPRESS:

Some applications let you reduce your mouse adjustments by a factor of 10 when you hold down a specified key.

After just fighting ROTATE (one is practically FORCED to use the Numeric Panel for small adjustments), I'd >>really<< like this feature in LWM, although I'm not sure what key could be pressed into surface.

THAT, or a interactive ROTATE numeric input. --Wait, am I going to find one of the "new" tools (anything after 2001 for me) already does this?

Please please please let them use the Ctrl key, as in Vegas Pro!

vncnt
06-25-2014, 10:57 AM
Ok I'll bite:

Genoma enhancements:

- Non-destructive rig updating. This will allow the user to re-position and adapt a rig skeleton without destroying layout-only functions.

- Bi-directional workflow. Changes the user makes in layout can be applied to modeler.

- Custom constraint setups (without using layout after rig construction).

- Improved library which allows the user to have the genoma window open and work in modeler at the same time.

And Genoma facial muscles. And Genoma chests for all complex rigs.

vncnt
06-25-2014, 11:07 AM
Camera match between modeler and layout. Newtek is promoting architectural rendering. That feature would be really useful for that purpose...

Import .LWS into Modeler.....

vncnt
06-25-2014, 11:11 AM
Hope the graph editor, Scene editor/dope sheet will be integrated into the main timeline to work together with a universal and efficient undo system!

Try Legato.

vncnt
06-25-2014, 11:17 AM
LHF: restore window/dialog layou on scene load.

vncnt
06-25-2014, 11:21 AM
LHF: restore window/dialog layou on scene load.

OMG that's a great idea! Here is another one: render profiles.

OnlineRender
06-25-2014, 11:58 AM
OMG that's a great idea! Here is another one: render profiles.

Pause Render!

robertoortiz
06-25-2014, 01:02 PM
We should be taking bets...
Ok here is guess..

Bullet enhancements
Enhanced cloth dynamics


VPR in Modeler
LW camera in Modeler
And I more tools for 3d Sculpting in modeler.

Greenlaw
06-25-2014, 01:21 PM
I received an IM from Sampei asking me once again to explain how break out FiberFX. Sorry for straying off-topic but I'll try to be brief about the process. I'm not sure why he keeps insisting on this info since it sounds like he's written off FiberFX but maybe this info will be helpful to another user.

Anyway, by saving out a 'hair' pass, I meant this is no different from breaking out a pass for any other lightwave item. Lightwave doesn't have a native layer passes system but of course you can exclude items and render them out individually. If you don't want to do this manually, there are tools like Janus which allow you to automate the process by creating presets for passes you use often.

The usual process I've used (even back when I was using Sasquatch for fibers,) is to set the base object to use the Matte Object option and set the Alpha Channel to Constant Black. Often times, I will insert an inverted sphere in the scene with the same item properties that has all shadow options disabled and is set to Unseen by Rays--that's not so important for FiberFX by it may be useful for other items than need hidden environmental items to cast as reflections or lighting on them. Anyway, this will give you a 'hair' pass.

Alternatively, you can just use FiberFX's Save RGB--this saves a separate fiber-only pass directly from FiberFX and makes the normal render 'hairless' but leaves cast fiber shadows on the mesh surface. It's probably just me but I don't like the anti-aliasing I get with the fibers-only element when using this mode and I prefer the result I get when I use the 'traditional' breakout method for the fibers. (I guess the difference is pretty subtle though--experiment to see which you like better.)

Oh, one more thing about the normal Lightwave Saver output: I found that if you're saving a fibers-only pass from this output, you'll probably want to set Alpha Format to Unpremultiply Alpha and comp it with the appropriate settings. If you don't do this, the fibers may look a little 'chunkier' than you expected.

Now if you want the FiberFX shadow as a separate pass, things get a little more complicated. I think some FiberFX users use Shadowcaster but I prefer to use Shadow Density instead. However, a broken out shadow pass never seems quite right to me, and I find I usually need to reduce the lighting in this pass to just the key light to get something usable for compositing. This was the same issue I ran into with Sasquatch, which was even more limited because you could only use shadow maps. I don't know if this is still the case but years ago when I was asking around, another user told me he had the same problems when using Shave in XSI. I'm guessing this must be technically difficult issue since it seems to be present in other hair systems. I hope LW3DG comes up with a solution eventually because I am occasionally asked to break out cast hair shadows separately. Most of the time, I'm fine with using the 'hairless with shadows' pass as is--IMO, the shadows being cast by the fibers is no different from other shadows being received by the character, so I don't see much point in outputting fiber shadows as a separate element. But this really depends on the requirements of a given production.

Now if you're talking about outputting channel buffers, FiberFX supports some buffers but I know it doesn't support all of them yet. The only FiberFX channel buffer I normally embed in my exr files are motion vectors (which is awesome! With Sasquatch, we always had to cheat this by expanding vectors from the character mesh, or using vectors from proxy 'hair' geometry, or using RSMB in compositing, none of which are ideal or very accurate.) For most layer passes, I also like to include Object and Material ID and Normals in my exr files, but these channels are apparently not supported by FiberFX even when in volume mode. (Motion vectors are supported in either mode.)

I'm not sure about the Specularity buffer--never tried ouputting that as a separate element for FiberFX. Naturally, you can break out spec the traditional way but, yes, it would be nice if this got supported as a buffer export. Maybe this will come in 11.7? (Feeble attempt to stay on topic.)

Please note that it's been over a year since I last used FiberFX in production so it's possible that some of the info above is outdated.

All this said, the process of breaking out layer passes could certainly be improved and streamlined, but this really goes for all of LightWave and not just for FiberFX. But I don't think anybody believes that's going to happen in 11.7.

Okay, so that really is all I have to say about this subject. We now return you to our regularly scheduled LightWave 11.7. speculation thread. :)

G.

sampei
06-25-2014, 03:11 PM
I pm'd Greenlaw because actually he's the one that quoted me with

Actually...oh, nevermind...I said I was done with the topic. :)
and left it at that, which isn't really helpful to anyone. People have asked that question in the past and it went unanswered, (http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?131893-FiberFX-Occlusion-rgb-matte-etc-passes&highlight=fiberfx+passes) so it's good to have a reference for future searches. I've actually done a few quick tests in LW11.6.3 yesterday with compositing_buffer_export and d-storm buffer_saver which seem to work ok. I'm guessing there's also more potential to be found in filter node editor setups. I have written off ffx, but only for realism as I repeated about a million times which leaves it viable for anything else, hence my interest.

jeric_synergy
06-25-2014, 04:40 PM
Please please please let them use the Ctrl key, as in Vegas Pro!
I didn't suggest CTRL because it's already used. :(

CaptainMarlowe
06-25-2014, 10:32 PM
For 11.7 I'd like substance integration, but that would maybe be more logical for LW12. But I sure wish to be able to import substances in LW or to send back and forth my models from Lightwave to substance designer. Considering the importance algorithmic has taken on the game models place, it would be a smart move, imho.

vncnt
06-25-2014, 10:53 PM
Optional setting for LScript Options dialogs to remove the titlebar.
Because in some cases it takes unnecessary screenspace.

jeric_synergy
06-26-2014, 01:12 AM
For 11.7 I'd like substance integration, but that would maybe be more logical for LW12. But I sure wish to be able to import substances in LW or to send back and forth my models from Lightwave to substance designer. Considering the importance algorithmic has taken on the game models place, it would be a smart move, imho.

Is that a realistic 0.1 update?

vncnt
06-26-2014, 02:35 AM
- Envelope TCB settings exceeding 1.0 or -1.0 for stronger influence.

- Ctrl+LMB pull down selection box = universal search list (parent item, target item, pole item, spline control, goal object, pos/rot/sca item)

- Modernize the Layout timeline and prepare it for new interactive functions: background color to display calculation status per frame, resize, multi-track, frame range selection, copy/paste, pan/zoom, markers/regions with proper handles and text labels, envelope channels, motion mixer features, TCB control.

- As an alternative: remove the Layout timeline, move any useable classic timeline features to Graph Editor (the large "current time" button and lock it permanent to the bottom of the Layout interface, key group handling) and continue developing modern timeline features.

- Even better alternative: combine timeline + motion mixer + graph editor in one unified new interface, including playback-, key- and selection controls, add modern timeline features, and finally lock it to the bottom (1 monitor setup) or the side (2 monitor setup).

- Organize Schematic

- Layout scene nesting (!) and be able to handle that scene holding unit.

vncnt
06-26-2014, 03:37 AM
My window layout on a typical day: 122563

Red markers: lots off dead space, unnecessary gaps (because not all dialogs can have the same narrow width).
Yellow markers: four timelines.
Six titlebars, different object selection methods.

And after a Revert to Last Scene or Load command, many dialogs disappear and need to be positioned/resized again.

Can this be improved?

robertoortiz
06-26-2014, 08:21 AM
- Envelope TCB settings exceeding 1.0 or -1.0 for stronger influence.

- Ctrl+LMB pull down selection box = universal search list (parent item, target item, pole item, spline control, goal object, pos/rot/sca item)

- Modernize the Layout timeline and prepare it for new interactive functions: background color to display calculation status per frame, resize, multi-track, frame range selection, copy/paste, pan/zoom, markers/regions with proper handles and text labels, envelope channels, motion mixer features, TCB control.

- As an alternative: remove the Layout timeline, move any useable classic timeline features to Graph Editor (the large "current time" button and lock it permanent to the bottom of the Layout interface, key group handling) and continue developing modern timeline features.

- Even better alternative: combine timeline + motion mixer + graph editor in one unified new interface, including playback-, key- and selection controls, add modern timeline features, and finally lock it to the bottom (1 monitor setup) or the side (2 monitor setup).

- Organize Schematic

- Layout scene nesting (!) and be able to handle that scene holding unit.
from your lips to god's ears.

jeric_synergy
06-26-2014, 08:24 AM
My window layout on a typical day: 122563
Red markers: lots off dead space, unnecessary gaps (because not all dialogs can have the same narrow width).
Yellow markers: four timelines.
Six titlebars, different object selection methods.
And after a Revert to Last Scene or Load command, many dialogs disappear and need to be positioned/resized again.
Can this be improved?
Excellent presentation of long-standing issues!

The "property list manager" (I prefer the original term 'flyout') is particularly galling in that I have been lobbying for YEARS for a better arrangement of that piece of crap. I even made several PShop mockups. The bigger it is, the more space it wastes.

robertoortiz
06-26-2014, 09:04 AM
Excellent presentation of long-standing issues!

The "property list manager" (I prefer the original term 'flyout') is particularly galling in that I have been lobbying for YEARS for a better arrangement of that piece of crap. I even made several PShop mockups. The bigger it is, the more space it wastes.

Could you share your PShop mockups. I think this would help A LOT this conversation.

jeric_synergy
06-26-2014, 09:16 AM
Roberto, that was literally years ago, I really doubt I could find them. But, it ain't rocket surgery.

- - - Updated - - -

Gradient backdrops in the UI for orientation. (Ala' MAYA.)

ianr
06-26-2014, 11:10 AM
Gentlemen can you really think LW3DG
can ram in many of your asks into a small point update.

Gentlemen you really should ask the mods to update the
Thread title to LW12 rampant spec.

David Ikeda's Hydra Engine is the way up from Core Crash,
sadly his discussion was stopped,but it bodes well,if all
the devs can swing their modules on to it.

A Major Fix to many tools functioning should be drawn up before
the Hydra switch,maybe with voting bar systems on this Forum.

Like I said at the start of this thread.

This 4 LW 12

HYDRA Modules intergrated -HYDRA PARTICLES-20Mill + (PLUS Jascha- Turb-Updates)!

HYDRA Modules intergrated-TAFA (Facial) leased into ChronoSculpt!! ( which is Hydra Tech)

HYDRA Modules intergrated-HYDRA 3RD POWERS Bought in !!!

HYDRA Modules intergrated-HYDRA NEVRON linked to TAFA & a FACESHIFT Type Plugin

HYDRA Modules intergrated-ALL WHERE Possible GPU driven,a baseline GFX GPU card set by LW3dG

Base GPU driven VPR.

Bread & butter motion graphics tools to recover ground & enhance Newtek Toaster.

LINUX Hooks for Others Pipelines.:lwicon:

jeric_synergy
06-26-2014, 11:18 AM
there already IS a LW12 thread. Posting a wishlist of Hydra stuff isn't exactly "11.7" on-topic.

hrgiger
06-26-2014, 12:29 PM
there already IS a LW12 thread. Posting a wishlist of Hydra stuff isn't exactly "11.7" on-topic.

Here http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?127502-What-two-things-would-you-most-like-to-see-in-LW-12

Emmanuel
06-26-2014, 02:24 PM
Well then, hail HYDRA.

scallahan1
06-26-2014, 08:12 PM
Well then, hail HYDRA.

Now that's friggin' funny. :)

vncnt
06-27-2014, 04:56 AM
Reshuffling interface elements is not difficult. Some work involved yes. But restructuring existing features can open our minds for further enhancements. If more LW-animators (actually animating, not constructing objects or coding) share their UI ideas then that would improve usability of LW for character animation, strong poses and natural motion.

vncnt
06-27-2014, 05:10 AM
I also would like to say that during CA-work I don't care about fancy features like flocking, rendering, simulation or lighting. It's all about editing hierarchy poses, handling hierarchy inbetweens and retiming and synchronizing to story beats.

And to prove my point I've developed Legato but it should not end there. Many Legato features could (should) be native LW.

Streamline the process of recycling poses and movements. And streamline the process of retiming and synchronizing the hierarchies of characters. It's also about giving meaning to large collections of keys. Together they will tell your story.

robertoortiz
06-27-2014, 06:40 AM
I also would like to say that during CA-work I don't care about fancy features like flocking, rendering, simulation or lighting. It's all about editing hierarchy poses, handling hierarchy inbetweens and retiming and synchronizing to story beats.

And to prove my point I've developed Legato but it should not end there. Many Legato features could (should) be native LW.

Streamline the process of recycling poses and movements. And streamline the process of retiming and synchronizing the hierarchies of characters. It's also about giving meaning to large collections of keys. Together they will tell your story.

Agreed.
here is a video of Legato to aid the conversation.
http://vimeo.com/97371462

Hell Iam surprised the LW3dG has not considered getting this.

allabulle
06-27-2014, 09:36 AM
Agreed.
here is a video of Legato to aid the conversation.
http://vimeo.com/97371462

Hell Iam surprised the LW3dG has not considered getting this.

I'd be actually worried if they didn't yet. It's pretty neat.

vncnt
06-27-2014, 10:21 AM
To make it easier for the LW3DG management/development team, here is a small feature list.
Legato is still beta and is not finished yet but you may consider this list as my wishlist for LW11.7 and LW12.
If someone has concerns about the usefulness of these features, he/she is welcome to test it in a real project.

Legato feature list:

- display a presentation of envelopes (auto resized to maximum amplitude) that belong to the selected item, the selected tool and itīs active channels (x, y, z, h, p, b, X, Y, Z)
- keep Legato on the bottom of the screen (minding all different resolutions and aspects), synchronized to the timeline, and enforce window layout

- select an item and define markers and regions that are linked to that item; this item now serves as the "hierarchy master"; every child of this hierarchy master can now be modified
- select a marker/region handle (known issue: when Graph Editor is open, it will cause delays) and rename with "F2"-button or delete by double RMB click
- separate markers/regions for poses/animations (in the lower level), storybeats/actions (in the upper level) and render ranges / single frames
- cross convert (selected/all) upper/lower markers and regions
- convert markers/regions to global; these are ignored by other commands and are not linked to any item; intended for static guides/hints
- import/export markers and regions
- select an item and press "O" to Organize that hierarchy (item and itīs child items) in the Schematic viewport; not 100% perfect but often very close

- select a frame range via click-and-drag or double clicking inbetween markers/regions
- drag the MMB or RMB to zoom or shift the preview range
- ping/pong playback (known issue: do not enable play at exact rate) or regular playback of the selected frame range
- store keys in an user defined frame range for an entire hierarchy (or selected items or active channels of selected items) into a dedicated negative frame range, serving as a library
- filter library list by negative range, positive range or both
- transfer keys from a library item to any hierarchy; compatibility issues can be interactively resolved, based on the retarget list that is automatically generated (and stored in the LWS for reuse)
- move or clone or retime or amplify a range of keys
- timebend a range of keys by dragging the middle marker between the two outer markers (a bit like modifying gamma)
- key settings (TCB, etc) can be set for an entire hierarchy (or selected items or active channels of selected items) on the current frame
- quickly add a hold pose for an entire hierarchy (or selected items or active channels of selected items) on the current frame, based on a previous key (if existing)
- use library items from an external LWS (not implemented yet)

- library items can also be indirectly applied via blocks: the representation of library items in a NLE-style raster: tracks on the Y-axis and and frame# on the X-axis
- display a NLE style representation of blocks (like motion mixer) on tracks, using fade-in, blendlevel-start, blendlevel-end, fade-out.
- blocks can be moved, cloned, deleted, time-stretched and blended with animations of the same (character) hierarchy, a hand/limb/entire creature
- a range of blocks can be retimed or timebended
- solo/mute the entire hierarchy for a clean viewport
- blocks can be bounced (baked) in real-time or upon manual command; each (!) item that has animation attached gets a "receiver" motion plugin "Legato_LiveMixer"
- manually apply the "Legato_NonVolatileLiveMixer" for more control over channels (+, -, *, /, mute)

- store camera/quality/render/renderrange related parameters in 4 selectable presets, saved in the LWS
- store each F9/F10/F11 rendertime result for each frame per (selected) renderpreset in the LWS
- select a frame range and press the Auto Sample button to evenly spread the samples inside the selected frame range
- enable "fast" to reduce the output frame size and calculate a correction and apply it on new samples (not implemented yet), as an estimate
- visually show rendertimes, based on measured rendertime and interpolate missing frames to calculate an estimated rendertime
- display the availability of each frame as a file, as specified in the output settings for rgb, alpha and buffer related files
- visually identify files with a filesize of (almost) zero
- visually show rendertimes, based on file creation date/time and interpolate missing frames to calculate an estimated rendertime
- press the F13 render button to re-render missing/zerosized files

not completely implemented yet:
- press the SN button to visualize the status of each rendermachine in your network
- press the Farm button to notify each rendermachine that the farm is starting up
- press the Render button to scan for available rendermachines and dynamically allocate a new frame or frame range of the currently loaded LWS
- store rendermachine performance and decide how to spread workload: fast machines get more frames to do at the same time
- job view

not implemented yet:
- rendermachines can be controllede remotely
- rendermachines automatically become available, triggered by idle time, determined by itīs operating system; as soon as their mouse moves their renderprocess will be killed immediately
- automatically switching renderprofiles when target date/time for the entire queue can not be met, based on estimated rendertimes and specified end date/time
- end action (including specification of next LWS)

RebelHill
06-27-2014, 11:05 AM
Most of that stuff would just be served by an overhaul to the graph editor... see maya/motionbuilder timeline/graph for reference, that's it done right.

jeric_synergy
06-27-2014, 12:23 PM
11.7 modest feature (LWM):

"BIG POINT MODE"- I'd like an optional viewing mode that, only when in Point Mode, Points were drawn conspicuously larger than in Edge and Poly mode.

So, when this option is ON, users would have control over the PLUS SIZED Points, but in the other modes the current point size control would prevail.

--Come to think of it, all this would require is that the drawing routines notice when the app was in Point mode, and adjust the same variable that currently defines point display size to the user's defined "BIGPOINT" size. +a minimal amount of UI.

jeric_synergy
06-27-2014, 01:00 PM
LW 11.7 modest change:

Make SUBDIVISION ORDER default to LAST, or make the default user-definable. ::gritting teeth::

vncnt
06-28-2014, 03:58 AM
Most of that stuff would just be served by an overhaul to the graph editor... see maya/motionbuilder timeline/graph for reference, that's it done right.

I think the future of LW would be served best when combining/enhancing the MotionMixer, GraphEditor and TimeLine into one new method and supported by an internal/external library system.

jeric_synergy
06-29-2014, 01:47 PM
LWM 11.7 modest change: Better visibility for axis labels.

I'd like to ALWAYS be able to see the axis labels in Modeler. It'd be great if they were more contrasty, and had an XOR-pixel border around them so that no matter what the content of the viewport they stood out. (And were drawn LAST.)



--Perhaps this would be a non-issue if control of the axis label color were given to the users.

Same thing for Layout, I guess, but especially for the Perspective window: when you tilt much, the axis label is off the edge of the viewport. It'd be nice if, when the axis label 'hits' the edge of the viewport it kinda stuck there at the intersection of the axis and the edge.

Oh, and I'd like a optional Y-axis added to the perspective viewport.

jeric_synergy
06-29-2014, 01:55 PM
Could you share your PShop mockups. I think this would help A LOT this conversation.
Not a mockup, but a quantitative look at the "List Manager" layout (it's old, I do see the typo):
As you can see, the percentage of waste goes up when you enlarge the List to a useful height.

The mockups simply moved all those buttons to the top, where they didn't generate a big blank area beneath them. 8~
---Ugg, it makes me crazy because if it were layed out better, I'd actually use them.
122636

jeric_synergy
06-29-2014, 02:35 PM
I don't know if this is "11.7 modest" or not, but:

Shouldn't it be possible to animate/envelope the NUMBER of instances? Is there any fundamental reason this quantity is NOT animatable?

jeric_synergy
06-29-2014, 03:06 PM
On the Instancing Panel, on the Rotation tab, there's a Alignment TYPE which is currently implemented as a dropdown menu.

Currently, there's a maximum of 3 different possible Alignments. IE, the longest menu is only 3 items.

IMO, this parameter would be better suited to "radio buttons" than a dropdown menu, as the dropdown menu conceals the options from the user.

The same applies to the MODE parameter.

In general, I'm underwhelmed by the dropdown menu as a UI device as it is slow, conceals information, and can often be done away with to the benefit of clarity.

Snosrap
06-29-2014, 07:56 PM
How about some rendering enhancements? Something to make GI more like VRay or Octane and the like.

jeric_synergy
06-29-2014, 10:00 PM
Does the idea of a 0.1 upgrade just Not Sink In?

vncnt
06-29-2014, 11:12 PM
I think itīs okay to have some adventurous features in a +.1 upgrade.
Maybe an official (clearly visible) experimental features mode.

LW could use a better feedback system:
- always send something to the LW3DG after each program crash, no e-mail system
- NO follow up like: give us proof, otherwise your message will be deleted: accept all feedback, no discussions
- if you need proof, collect it via the crash system and ask one simple question: "what were you doing just before the crash?"
- and: "may we collect extra data?"
- NO error messages: "can not contact LW server because of settings 40199(__&%(_&%$%#)(()%""!!###???, please try again because itīs your fault"

Sony Vegas Pro does a very good job in collecting/sending feedback.

jeric_synergy
06-30-2014, 12:42 AM
There is a sporadic thing I'll see sometimes, some kind of crash reporter, but it can never can connect.

vncnt
06-30-2014, 01:04 AM
There is a sporadic thing I'll see sometimes, some kind of crash reporter, but it can never can connect.

After 4 seconds of fiddling with that crash reporter, I tend to focus on my work.
The responsibility of functional feedback to track errors should shift back to the development team.

jeric_synergy
06-30-2014, 07:25 AM
After 4 seconds of fiddling with that crash reporter, I tend to focus on my work.
The responsibility of functional feedback to track errors should shift back to the development team.
Couldn't agree more.

maxi3dcp
06-30-2014, 11:40 AM
Here are mine ...
Feature requests that come to mind:

Layout:

Adaptive Sampling:
Saved Progressive Adaptive Sampling.

Basically keep the render after each pass of AS.
Or, to make very slow render, could save three stages. The first after Pre-processing, the second after the first analysis render passes before Adaptive AA, and the third before Post-Processing.
It is useful to make test renders in low and wait out the end of AS. Similar to the progressive refinement of FPrime but with AS + SaveRender. State Render Cache Files. Pause / Continue Renders
Useful when large error arises scenes render finish; or AA looking for a config from a very high sampling to see which was the best value of Maximum Samples resolved.

VPR:
Button Pause / Continue (+ hotkey)
Select Buffers (RGB, Depth, Alpha ...)
Load / Save Progressive Render
Render Visible / Select Only
GI Cache VPR
View VPR in Modeler.
VPR in SurfaceEditor (Preset Surface Samples)

Node Editor:
Universal nodes to not use repetitions for Scalar Nodes Math, Vector type. Use Add, Multiply, etc for Scalar / Vector Colored "Orange", for example. These nodes know that connection automatically enters and behave as such. This would simplify the node list.
Wireframe node
Null node to control the flow lines of connection nodes. Similar to Nuke.
Output nodes out / Out_Invert
Color space Node convert (Lin to Log)

Schematic
Snaps
Multiple property changes
Hide Lines
Image BG
groups
Nulls different Shapes Shapes of Objtects. Light and camera

SceneEditor
Light Include / exlude by obtects Property Flags
Smart Filter Selections (Nulls / Helpers / LWO / FX)
Blocking Features for items (Active, Hide, Lock)
Filter by Color Items

-SurfaceEditor
Filter by: Node
Renowned superficeies series with suffix and prefix.
undo
Convert Nodes

-Light Property
Filter, search Include / Exclude Objects
Show only LWO objects, objects renderer helpers no nulls or to choose from a list of include.

-Motion Option
Filter at Target buscadore item / Pole Item or failing a button

XD

Snosrap
06-30-2014, 06:47 PM
There is a sporadic thing I'll see sometimes, some kind of crash reporter, but it can never can connect. It's my understanding that they are removing this altogether.

stephefrank
07-01-2014, 05:06 AM
we badly miss GI like vray... and automated walk/run generator for genoma rigs

maxi3dcp
07-01-2014, 07:45 PM
Motion Option
Filter finder at Target item / Pole Item or failing a button

Objects Properties
item Color
Item Visibility ckecker
Item Lock ckecker
Groups
Unseen Reflection ckecker
Unseen Refraction ckecker
Instances Unseen ckecker


render Globals
Render Modes: Realistic, All Occlusion, Quickshade, SolidShade + Pixel Filter + Image Filter, Wireframe, OpenGL (Equals Save Preview but with support CgFX Shaders)

jeric_synergy
07-01-2014, 11:12 PM
Motion Option
Filter finder at Target item / Pole Item or failing a button
.....
etc. --Too terse: I didn't understand your requests. Do you mean, like in the Scene Editor but more options?

jeric_synergy
07-01-2014, 11:16 PM
11.7 modes (AKA, might/could actually get DONE) request:

It'd be nice if in the NSE, when the cursor was over the "drag zone" in the vertical bar, the cursor SHAPE would change, identical to how it changes when you are in the zone for the Dope Track.

This is one of those "polish" items-- not critical by any means, but the user EXPECTS it to happen.

It's also one of those CONSISTENCY things-- it does it that way in one part of the program, it should be consistent.

maxi3dcp
07-03-2014, 04:49 PM
etc. --Too terse: I didn't understand your requests. Do you mean, like in the Scene Editor but more options?

The workflow or do like the new tools RHiggit Rigging Toolbox. Or, they would have to put a text input to find the object. To not spend hours searching the list of objects in order to Pole or Target. The list includes all objects in the scene but according SceneEditor SecuenceItems order. Not allowed to see the list ordered by Name, by Item ID .. The listings selections are archaic. Should include hierarchies throughout the interface.

RebelHill
07-03-2014, 05:02 PM
The workflow or do like the new tools RHiggit Rigging Toolbox. Or, they would have to put a text input to find the object. To not spend hours searching the list of objects in order to Pole or Target.

In fairness, they have included "assign tools" as standard now, though they're not well known. Ofc, it is still a bit of a lacklustre solution, which is why Ive tried to extend and improve the workflow with Rigging Toolbox. What would be ideal would be not just a native tool, but an integrated workflow... The "pick session" from softimage is a great example of something like that done pretty well.

stephefrank
07-04-2014, 12:13 PM
we badly need GI like VRAY...

Tranimatronic
07-04-2014, 02:37 PM
we badly need a different node tree for each stage of the deformation pipeline.
One for before bones, another SEPARATE tree for after bones, another after morph.
Were only using one and setting it to one of the steps. One for each step. Come on!

Kryslin
07-05-2014, 11:07 AM
This may not be a low hanging fruit item...
...Use of tesselation shaders in openGL to handle SubD display in Modeler/Layout (not rendering).
This would take the load off of the CPU, and make performance a bit snappier on machines that support this... (Nearly everyone's?)
(I believe this was in CORE as well, I remember seeing a mediocre laptop manipulating a 1Mpoly model interactively, with the author stating for display purposes, the application could use the GPU to subdivide the mesh...)

vncnt
07-06-2014, 10:53 AM
Agreed.
here is a video of Legato to aid the conversation.
http://vimeo.com/97371462

Hell Iam surprised the LW3dG has not considered getting this.

And here is the latest Legato rev.O+: http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?136828-How-to-change-a-rig-in-45-scene-files&p=1389651#post1389651
to enhance the 11.7 feature list.

jeric_synergy
07-06-2014, 01:42 PM
LW11.7 Modest enhancement: adjustable select area for DRAG and Select Point

Maybe I'm getting shakey in my old age, but I'd appreciate a bigger/adjustable area of action for (Point) DRAG and Point Select. Essentially,, making the 'brush' bigger.

Ideally each tool would have specific sizes, but just a general/universal size adjustment would be okay.

Oedo 808
07-06-2014, 02:28 PM
LW11.7 Modest enhancement: adjustable select area for DRAG and Select Point

Maybe I'm getting shakey in my old age, but I'd appreciate a bigger/adjustable area of action for (Point) DRAG and Point Select. Essentially,, making the 'brush' bigger.

Ideally each tool would have specific sizes, but just a general/universal size adjustment would be okay.

Yeah, I think I might have asked for this with Core, or maybe it was just in general. A preferred implementation would be to use a hotkey (or perhaps be able to assign one) you could press and then drag the mouse left/right, such as resizing the brush in PhotoLine with using Ctrl, and have the cursor showing the area of influence.

jeric_synergy
07-06-2014, 02:33 PM
Seems like a pretty standard idea, no? 8~

jeric_synergy
07-06-2014, 03:10 PM
Is this the standard layout for ACTION CENTER? :stumped:
122823

Because, having it in that order just makes it harder to learn the hotkeys. :devil:

In case it's not obvious, I'm suggesting they be in F5, F6, F7, F8 order.

jeric_synergy
07-06-2014, 04:05 PM
LWM, 'modest' enhancement: Automatic threshold Selection Sets

I'd like a feature in Modeler where, anytime you make a Selection (of any type) over a user-definable threshold of N elements, a Selection Set would be created automatically.

So, for those fancy selections that are a huge PITA to repeat, it would have already been done for you. But for SMALL sets, with "small" defined by YOU, you have to do it again by hand. (Of course, you could always make a Selection Set manually too.)

These are NOT saved, unless you specify. But the file might get pretty big....

Greenlaw
07-06-2014, 04:11 PM
LW11.7 Modest enhancement: adjustable select area for DRAG and Select Point

Maybe I'm getting shakey in my old age, but I'd appreciate a bigger/adjustable area of action for (Point) DRAG and Point Select. Essentially,, making the 'brush' bigger.

Ideally each tool would have specific sizes, but just a general/universal size adjustment would be okay.

Yeah, I think know what you mean.

This isn't the same thing but it might help: Go into Display Options (d), Interface, check on Simple Wire Points, and then set the point side to 4 or higher (larger or smaller depending on your screen res and personal preference.) This really helps me when I'm working on my laptop, which has a small-ish screen.

G.

jeric_synergy
07-06-2014, 04:33 PM
Ha! Already done, mate, YEARS ago! :cry:

:beerchug:

Actually, as the tools add pre-selection highlighting, this is MUCH less of an issue.

And, totally aside: I'm am LUVVING!!!11!! the 11.6 Transform Tool, it's the bee's knees.

Snosrap
07-06-2014, 08:59 PM
I'm am LUVVING!!!11!! the 11.6 Transform Tool, it's the bee's knees. Seriously? That thing is almost worthless. See video.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sXcFUwJvwM&lc=z13fhrgawuuutx1aw04cdrpbalqjjbe41x40k

jeric_synergy
07-06-2014, 09:22 PM
Seriously? That thing is almost worthless. See video.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sXcFUwJvwM&lc=z13fhrgawuuutx1aw04cdrpbalqjjbe41x40k
Dood, couldn't make it fail. It may have been fixed in 11.6. Try again.

Snosrap
07-06-2014, 09:57 PM
Dood, couldn't make it fail. It may have been fixed in 11.6. Try again. Dude :) It doesn't work on small objects. Rob is going around praising LW because it doesn't use arbitrary units but real world sizes, and yet his tools don't work on real world sized objects. :) See similar video this time with 11.6.2. Object is 45 x 20mm, try it for yourself. Video here:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dzlgdvbNlM&feature=youtu.be

realgray
07-06-2014, 10:08 PM
Dude :) It doesn't work on small objects. Rob is going around praising LW because it doesn't use arbitrary units but real world sizes, and yet his tools don't work on real world sized objects. :) See similar video this time with 11.6.2. Object is 45 x 20mm, try it for yourself. Video here:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dzlgdvbNlM&feature=youtu.be

:eek:

Greenlaw
07-06-2014, 10:33 PM
Wow, you're right. I can get the move handles to work and sometimes the scale handles if I really work at it, but I can't get any of the rotate handles to work at all at that size. When I scale the object up much bigger, it works fine.

I guess I had never used this tool on really tiny objects until now. This is pretty bad. Has this been fogged already?

G.

Kryslin
07-06-2014, 10:38 PM
Okay... I just made a 45mm cube, 3 divisions X/Y/Z. Subpatched it, and proceeded to have no problems using the transform tool on it.
Lightwave 11.6.3 32 bit, build 2737

I did notice that on a flat plane, 45mm on a side, that the y-scale does not function. X/Z scale worked, as did X/Y/Z translation and rotation. It also causes the y-scale to stop working on the object that it used to work on. Once the 2-D object is removed, things work normally.

Snosrap
07-06-2014, 10:59 PM
Okay... I just made a 45mm cube, 3 divisions X/Y/Z. Subpatched it, and proceeded to have no problems using the transform tool on it.
Lightwave 11.6.3 32 bit, build 2737

I did notice that on a flat plane, 45mm on a side, that the y-scale does not function. X/Z scale worked, as did X/Y/Z translation and rotation. It also causes the y-scale to stop working on the object that it used to work on. Once the 2-D object is removed, things work normally. Press "Shift A" to zoom into one polygon selection and then try it.

jeric_synergy
07-06-2014, 11:01 PM
Crud. Huh. Got it to fail at 20mm. Mostly (all?) the rotation gizmos. --nooop, there goes the Scale gizmos. Damn. THAAAAAAANKS for making me unhappy. :cursin:

Well, at 1M it works! ;)

Snosrap
07-06-2014, 11:03 PM
Wow, you're right. I can get the move handles to work and sometimes the scale handles if I really work at it, but I can't get any of the rotate handles to work at all at that size. When I scale the object up much bigger, it works fine.

I guess I had never used this tool on really tiny objects until now. This is pretty bad. Has this been fogged already?

G.

Yep it works fine on larger objects. As far as being fogged - I'm pretty sure it has, but it doesn't really matter as these tools were put in mostly as an after thought and will eventually be replaced. :)

Snosrap
07-06-2014, 11:05 PM
Crud. Huh. Got it to fail at 20mm. Mostly (all?) the rotation gizmos. --nooop, there goes the Scale gizmos. Damn. THAAAAAAANKS for making me unhappy. :cursin:

Well, at 1M it works! ;) Yep - scale everything up to work on it - just like Bullet dynamics! :)

jeric_synergy
07-06-2014, 11:30 PM
Yep - scale everything up to work on it - just like Bullet dynamics! :)
And FFX! 8~

Grrrrrrrrr. I can maybe understand why Bullet and FFX are scale-sensitive, but I certainly don't get why THE USER INTERFACE would be scale-sensitive.

djwaterman
07-06-2014, 11:55 PM
I've also noticed this flaky behavior with the transform tool, it's still a great tool that has transformed a lot of my modeling but this aspect is annoying. One solution might be to copy the geometry into a new layer and scale it up, work on it and then use Fit to Background to scale it back down to the original size.

jeric_synergy
07-06-2014, 11:58 PM
In your heart you know that's Just Another Lightwave WorkaroundŪ.

VIDandCGI
07-07-2014, 12:08 AM
What do the Scale issues stem from? - Legacy?

Oedo 808
07-07-2014, 01:29 AM
If they are going to look at the Transform tool then I'd like the last used handle remain active so that if you needed to adjust your view you could just use the viewport and wouldn't need to go back and grab the handle again, especially if you want to zoom in on a section that takes the gizmo out of the screen, in which case it can't be used. I suppose I might like the last used mode to be remembered (i.e. Stretch) and then you could use Ctrl to constrain the axis you want relative to the gizmo orientation, but that sort of thing not really for 11.7 I guess. Mind you, being able to constrain the normal Stretch tool to world axes in perspective view, I'd like that.

I tend to use LWCAD tools to do much of what you might otherwise use the Transform tool for, not to go too off topic but can I ask someone, how would you stretch an object like in the attached image from one end or the other, or even from the border of where the colours change? It works on poles where the normals average out, but as you can see on that the axis would be skewed and I can't work it out. I wonder if using choose pivot could retain the selected orientation with right click or some such thing, or can you do this already?

Ideally this sort of thing should be doable without having to use a button from the Numeric Panel.

122833
122832

djwaterman
07-07-2014, 03:30 AM
No it doesn't unfortunately. The workaround would be to select the four points at the end and create a polygon, then select the face of that polygon with the transform tool, then drop the selection, select the main object and pick up the transform tool again, which retains the previous orientation so you can stretch it along the polygons normal. That's a lot of steps but at least it's do-able.

davidsenna03
07-07-2014, 06:48 AM
The particle systems and the hypervoxels are a bit dated. Maybe an integration of Turbulence FD or something similar would be nice.

jeric_synergy
07-07-2014, 08:37 AM
I tend to use LWCAD tools to do much of what you might otherwise use the Transform tool for, not to go too off topic but can I ask someone, how would you stretch an object like in the attached image from one end or the other, or even from the border of where the colours change? It works on poles where the normals average out, but as you can see on that the axis would be skewed and I can't work it out. I wonder if using choose pivot could retain the selected orientation with right click or some such thing, or can you do this already?
?? Isn't this precisely what AxisScale is for?

Oedo 808
07-07-2014, 09:26 AM
No it doesn't unfortunately. The workaround would be to select the four points at the end and create a polygon, then select the face of that polygon with the transform tool, then drop the selection, select the main object and pick up the transform tool again, which retains the previous orientation so you can stretch it along the polygons normal. That's a lot of steps but at least it's do-able.

Aye, there are a few work arounds, cheers. If it is or can be rotated to be perpendicular to a viewport LWCAD's Scale Snap (1D) does it with that shape quite easily because there is an edge to the end point but another shape might be more difficult. If there wasn't an edge in line with the end point, such as in the image, I could drag a guide rail out using Extend and Move Snap on another edge, but am I over-thinking this?

I needed to do this just a day or so ago but I can't remember what the bloody model was.

122836


?? Isn't this precisely what AxisScale is for?

Are you offering that as a way to do it, in which case thanks, or saying that Transform shouldn't have that ability?

It works for if you wanted to scale just by the coloured section using the edge, but if there was no symmetry to provide vertex along the intended line of translation I don't see how it would work for the end scaling. It's not the first time I've tried to think how to solve a problem that didn't even exist, but that isn't the answer. Simply, it would be nice to choose the pivot point from one element of the model and the rotation axis of the gizmo from another... I think. :stumped:

jeric_synergy
07-07-2014, 09:54 AM
Maybe I'm misunderstanding (both the problem and the tools :( ): let's restate:

You want to scale the whole object along the major axis, and the issue is the normal off the endcap point is skewed from the major axis, correct?

Maybe I'm misunderstanding the tool, but my impression is that Axis Scale allows the user to chose a scale axis from pretty much anywhere in the viewport. #awayFromLW, but if the UI is consistent (ha!) you should be able to Select elements, invoke Scale Axis, chose the axis, and scale only the Selected elements.

The overlap between Transform and the Scale-X tools isn't, I think, all that close: Transform seems to be Normal oriented, while the Axis Tools are, unsurprisingly, axis oriented. --Or I've totally missed what all these newfangled tools are for, why in my day you moved points individually, by hand, in a snowstorm.

That's what we called cocaine.

Kryslin
07-07-2014, 10:56 AM
Press "Shift A" to zoom into one polygon selection and then try it.

Ok, I got broken behaviour zoomed in real close. It's almost as if the hot spots on the gizmo aren't being generated; depending on angle, I can get 2 of the three to work for translation, but nothing else.
And appears to be related to view port zoom, not necessarily object scale... zoom out a bit, and the tool works again.

Snosrap
07-07-2014, 11:10 AM
Ok, I got broken behaviour zoomed in real close. It's almost as if the hot spots on the gizmo aren't being generated; depending on angle, I can get 2 of the three to work for translation, but nothing else.
And appears to be related to view port zoom, not necessarily object scale... zoom out a bit, and the tool works again. Yep - I think one of the issues is that the tool gives precedence to the pre-highlighting. Pre-highlighting on this tool is really stupid as the tool only works with geometry that is already selected. It's only usefulness it when selecting where to put the widget - in that case you have to press shift anyway so why not have the pre-highlighting disabled until it sees a shift press.

jeric_synergy
07-07-2014, 11:16 AM
Good thing I shave my head, or I'd be tearing my hair out.

Are we SURE this has been fog'd? Seems like an easy fix.

jeric_synergy
07-07-2014, 12:20 PM
OK, here's a real easy one:

Fix the RECENT FILES feature to include "nnnnn_v0nn.lwo" files, iow the incremental saves.

It's really irritating to be forced to hunt down the latest version, isn't that the POINT of "Recent Files" features? So you can find the most recent version?

jeric_synergy
07-07-2014, 12:29 PM
Here's a modest request:

A switch to automatically have all Primitives be created as "Resting On Ground". (Isn't this a default in most modelers?)

I know it only saves TWO keypresses, but hey, a saving is a saving.

It could be global or item by item, but I suspect global would be more convenient.

jeric_synergy
07-07-2014, 12:39 PM
Strand Maker ENHANCEMENT:

Strand Maker works FINE, but it's a little too subtle if you ask me. It'd be nice if it SWITCHED to the layer with the new (strand) geometry, or at least flashed the status bar with a highlight and a message. --I know the user should KNOW that something happened, but it's pretty easy to miss the new layer getting occupied, and I THINK that if you were on Layer #10 and the next empty layer was in the next Layer Bank, you wouldn't even be able to see the Layer indicator turn on.

(CONFIRMED: Strands get made on Layers that are not visibly indicated unless the Layers Panel is open.)

So, two requests:

Status line message with highlight-- similar to Vertex Map creation
Switching to new layer with generated Strands


Another thing: if the Next Empty Layer is several layers away from the active Layer when Strand Maker does its thing, the user has to go hunting for it. That's BS.

Another other thing: why not have this newly occupied layer get named "Strands"? Or some user definable name, if any.

Snosrap
07-07-2014, 01:09 PM
Here's a modest request:

A switch to automatically have all Primitives be created as "Resting On Ground". (Isn't this a default in most modelers?)

I know it only saves TWO keypresses, but hey, a saving is a saving.

It could be global or item by item, but I suspect global would be more convenient.I like your thought process here. I don't see any downside to it either.

djwaterman
07-07-2014, 08:49 PM
If they are going to look at the Transform tool then I'd like the last used handle remain active so that if you needed to adjust your view you could just use the viewport and wouldn't need to go back and grab the handle again, especially if you want to zoom in on a section that takes the gizmo out of the screen, in which case it can't be used. I suppose I might like the last used mode to be remembered (i.e. Stretch) and then you could use Ctrl to constrain the axis you want relative to the gizmo orientation, but that sort of thing not really for 11.7 I guess. Mind you, being able to constrain the normal Stretch tool to world axes in perspective view, I'd like that.

I tend to use LWCAD tools to do much of what you might otherwise use the Transform tool for, not to go too off topic but can I ask someone, how would you stretch an object like in the attached image from one end or the other, or even from the border of where the colours change? It works on poles where the normals average out, but as you can see on that the axis would be skewed and I can't work it out. I wonder if using choose pivot could retain the selected orientation with right click or some such thing, or can you do this already?

Ideally this sort of thing should be doable without having to use a button from the Numeric Panel.

122833
122832


Actually, I think it can do this, I just made your shape and then selected the top most polygon (the big main one that is the body) with the transform tool, so that gives me the correct direction to stretch along, and then I found that the tool does allow you to slide its position along the normal, Right mouse button and click on the red, blue or green line, and slide the tool to where you want it, even completely off the original polygon. Then I can stretch the object from this new tool position.

I was going to write that the tool should be able to do this but have then I found out that it already does.

Oedo 808
07-08-2014, 04:10 AM
Yeah, that's good that it does this, I never thought to say, I'd been using Ctrl to do it, not sure I realized right click did it. It would be nice if it had snapping, so you could select and edge and slide to the end or move off to an end point. I know when I tried it before I wanted to keep the endpoint in place and I'm not sure I could eyeball that. But it's not really a burning issue for me I just wondered if it could be done. I guess thinking about it, it has snapping close enough with selecting, would just like to be able to left-click or Ctrl-click to select while retaining rotation, something like that.

Oh, and does closing LightWave with the Transform tool active crash it for anyone else?

jeric_synergy
07-08-2014, 05:30 PM
Geeze, people are asking for VRAY and hypervoxels and particle systems,....

and all* I want is the ROVE TOOL to work in Symmetry mode!

Too much to ask? Sorry about dissing all the "real time ray tracing with volumetrics with telepathic interface" crowd. In a point upgrade. >|^P




*that's irony folks.

Greenlaw
07-08-2014, 05:43 PM
Geeze, people are asking for VRAY and hypervoxels and particle systems,....

and all* I want is the ROVE TOOL to work in Symmetry mode!

Too much to ask?

Wrong thread...this is '11.7 Rampant Speculation'.

'Realistic Expectations' is down the hall to the left. :)

G.

jeric_synergy
07-08-2014, 05:46 PM
11.7 modest:

How about some SEARCH functions in the "Edit Plugins" panel? Hunting for plugins and scripts is zero amount of fun.

I note that it appears that the panel doesn't do the Windows (and Mac?) normal thing of sorting on the heading when it is clicked: that is, sorting on the filename versus sorting on the plugin Type or the Path. :tsktsk:

Greenlaw
07-08-2014, 06:25 PM
Yes, those are good ones!

jwiede
07-08-2014, 06:29 PM
The add/edit plugin stuff is a total mess and needs entirely different handling. For bare minimum, we need a way to bundle and install/uninstall menu branches etc. with plugins similar to modo's "kits", and stuff like actual version tagging (and awareness of updates/changes). The current approach's UX barely works on its best days, and even then it frequently loses plugins, breaks plugin-menuitem associations, and so forth requiring constant, highly-manual maintenance.

What you're suggesting sounds like it'd help, but without accessible metadata to correlate which potential menu entities belong to which plugins (and vice versa), and the ability to view/search by that grouping, it really won't help that much in practice. You'd still be doing one-by-one manual associations and handling, as it were.

Sensei
07-08-2014, 06:34 PM
jwiede, you're writing from point-of-view that anybody will be still writing anything..

Any changes won't fix older existing plugins. So changes in this area are purely to new stuff, not existing yet.

vonpietro
07-08-2014, 07:45 PM
how about this.

A texture editor work flow addition.

on the bottom of the texture editor area where it has the scale.
Lets add a simple on off switch, it makes all 3 of the coordinates linked, so that when you slide one they all slide.
Its the equivalent of using a null and scaling it which affects all 3 values at once. So its a duplicate function, but.. nulls clutter scenes, and really its such a simple fix, i dont know why no one has thought of this before? Maybe they did, but its not been implemented.

Even better is a on/off switch near each value, if it's on, it's linked. sliding a linked slider, moves both values up or down. default would be off.
also since i see there is space there. a 1/2x and 2x button which halves or doubles the value every time you click it. bing bing bing half value half value half value, quicker than using the numeric 50/2 function if your just trying to see what 1/2 or double looks like.

finally,
The rotational dial might have a cross that once clicked lets you rotate the values all at once.

Just some added workflow features that a programmer can add in the time it takes to read this post. =)

jeric_synergy
07-08-2014, 08:38 PM
Lets add a simple on off switch, it makes all 3 of the coordinates linked, so that when you slide one they all slide.
Been wanting that since.... how old is Lightwave? :grumpy:

I suggest the switch be a LOCK icon. :bangwall:

djwaterman
07-08-2014, 10:06 PM
Does Lightwave already have a way to track where a loaded item is coming from, so if I click on some object in the scene editor it can show me what folder or drive it was imported from? If it doesn't that would be handy.

And yes, the lock switch on scale is a no brain-er.

Snosrap
07-08-2014, 10:14 PM
Does Lightwave already have a way to track where a loaded item is coming from, so if I click on some object in the scene editor it can show me what folder or drive it was imported from? If it doesn't that would be handy. The only way i know to do this is to selected the object and then press "Replace with Object" to see where it came from.

jeric_synergy
07-08-2014, 10:37 PM
Does Lightwave already have a way to track where a loaded item is coming from, so if I click on some object in the scene editor it can show me what folder or drive it was imported from? If it doesn't that would be handy.

And just so it doesn't get implemented stupidly: ALL assets should be able to be tracked. So, Images, Objects, Scenes, PFX files, MDD files... can I just say EVERYTHING and let it go at that?

And yes, the lock switch on scale is a no brain-er.
And has been for TWENTY years, and yet...

jeric_synergy
07-09-2014, 12:19 AM
11.7 New Feature, not so modest:

I dunno, I gave up programming a long time ago, maybe this would be a piece of cake, maybe it would slow a machine to a crawl, BUT:

I think it might be useful if you could have 2 viewports open, one displaying subpatches, the other NOT. So, when modeling, you could have the clarity of polygon mode, while seeing what the effect was in subpatch mode. Or vice versa.

(Is there any software that does this currently?)

Dodgy
07-09-2014, 12:58 AM
Here's a modest request:

A switch to automatically have all Primitives be created as "Resting On Ground". (Isn't this a default in most modelers?)


A switch, maybe, definitely not default. One thing I love about LW is the ability to create primitives wherever I want them. XSI always made them at <0,0,0> and I thought that was terrible, you'd always have to move to where they were, then move them back to where you wanted them. A complete pain in the derriere.

jeric_synergy
07-09-2014, 01:03 AM
A switch, maybe, definitely not default. One thing I love about LW is the ability to create primitives wherever I want them. XSI always made them at <0,0,0> and I thought that was terrible, you'd always have to move to where they were, then move them back to where you wanted them. A complete pain in the derriere.
Yeah, a switch.

I've been doing so many tests lately I haven't modeled any assemblies, and as you say, MUCH better to be able to create anywhere.

Oedo 808
07-09-2014, 01:20 AM
This is more general than 11.7 but how do folk feel about a not having to Shift/Ctrl to add select/deselect polygons option? It's hard to remember now but Core had that didn't it? I didn't mind it but I don't think you could deselect by touching selected polygons which felt a bit odd. Like anything it might need to be more nuanced, such as it only adding once you start adding and vice versa. Just wondered if anyone had any thoughts on the subject?