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Tony3d
05-28-2014, 11:32 AM
Hi all, Why is it when I create a helix, then rail extrude a shape along it, the shape changes orientation along the path???

Slartibartfast
05-28-2014, 01:18 PM
I don't know WHY but if you uncheck "oriented" it will be fine.

raw-m
05-28-2014, 02:09 PM
Hi Tony3d, can't help I'm afraid but I've been in spline mode a lot recently and looking for ways to quickly generate shapes. Can I ask for your technique in getting that Helix spline?

Tony3d
05-28-2014, 02:24 PM
I generated using the Helix command in Lightwave.

Tony3d
05-28-2014, 02:28 PM
Hi all, Why is it when I create a helix, then rail extrude a shape along it, the shape changes orientation along the path???

Thanks, but it still does funky stuff.

Snosrap
05-28-2014, 02:35 PM
I need to try that.

Tony3d
05-28-2014, 02:40 PM
I did. It actually doesn't seem to matter where I put it.

Slartibartfast
05-28-2014, 03:08 PM
I think it does matter if you also uncheck align to start. Glad you succeded anyways :thumbsup:

JoePoe
05-28-2014, 03:28 PM
I think it does matter if you also uncheck align to start. Glad you succeded anyways :thumbsup:

Hey Slartibartfast.... how are the planets? :D

I think he's still not having any luck.

Looks like a job for a DOUBLE Rail Extrude. :thumbsup:
Copy your spline and move it up a bit.
This way I don't think oriented or non-oriented matters. It's getting all it needs from the two rails.

122068 122067

Tony3d
05-28-2014, 03:42 PM
I think it does matter if you also uncheck align to start. Glad you succeded anyways :thumbsup:

Unbelievable Joe, you did again. Thanks! One more question, how can you copy, and paste in one layer, and move the new pasted image? I have to past in a separate layer, position it, then cut, and paste to the correct layer.

prometheus
05-28-2014, 03:49 PM
Get align to rail plugin... by carl merrit, if you donīt have.
https://www.lightwave3d.com/assets/plugins/entry/align-to-rail/
An as mentioned..uncheck align to start.

JoePoe
05-28-2014, 04:22 PM
Get align to rail plugin... by carl merrit, if you donīt have.
https://www.lightwave3d.com/assets/plugins/entry/align-to-rail/
An as mentioned..uncheck align to start.

I have (and love) both versions of this plug.... although I mostly use the no-requester flavor. In fact it's how I did the double Extrude.
BUT, I don't see an option to check/uncheck align to start. Screen grab to show me where please?
(maybe mine's old? I have both from the Database.)
With just "oriented" off, the result don't work.

Tony,
The geometry has to be actively selected. Copy>paste>and immediately (while still selected) move it. That should just move the pasted geometry.
Erikals posted a vid about this not too long ago. I can't remember if it was a general copy/paste improvement in 11.6 or about an improvement with a specific tool or plug :stumped:. Oh well. This should work, albeit clunky.

jeric_synergy
05-28-2014, 04:46 PM
Thanks, but it still does funky stuff.
That particular image looks like the polys are flipped.

JoePoe
05-28-2014, 05:06 PM
That particular image looks like the polys are flipped.

Well I guess technically they're flipped for half of the spiral..... that's because it's oriented in one axis only on it's journey around the helix.
But hitting f won't solve anything, just robbing Peter to pay Paul.
And.... the shape is still off.

Tony3d
05-28-2014, 08:31 PM
I have (and love) both versions of this plug.... although I mostly use the no-requester flavor. In fact it's how I did the double Extrude.
BUT, I don't see an option to check/uncheck align to start. Screen grab to show me where please?
(maybe mine's old? I have both from the Database.)
With just "oriented" off, the result don't work.

Tony,
The geometry has to be actively selected. Copy>paste>and immediately (while still selected) move it. That should just move the pasted geometry.
Erikals posted a vid about this not too long ago. I can't remember if it was a general copy/paste improvement in 11.6 or about an improvement with a specific tool or plug :stumped:. Oh well. This should work, albeit clunky.

Thanks Joe! Works fine.

jeric_synergy
05-29-2014, 12:31 AM
Along these lines:
Did anyone every produce a more fully featured Lathe or Helix tool?

With features like:

incremental/cumulative scale
optional control points (i.e., Curve end points)
polychain or Curve options
interactive "Total Points" vs "Degrees X Frequency" type control
define Inner/Outer circumference (choose one)

VIDandCGI
05-29-2014, 01:44 AM
"That particular image looks like the polys are flipped."
- I think its maintaining alignment to the start position, so therefore rather than rotating the shape incrementally round the helix, its almost like its taking the shape in a fixed facing and moving it forwards and backwards along the helix resulting in the areas where in the top view you can see the shape goes flat.

As for copy pasting into the same layer I copy then move the original geometry and paste the initial copy back into the original position.

prometheus
05-29-2014, 02:26 AM
I have (and love) both versions of this plug.... although I mostly use the no-requester flavor. In fact it's how I did the double Extrude.
BUT, I don't see an option to check/uncheck align to start. Screen grab to show me where please?
(maybe mine's old? I have both from the Database.)
With just "oriented" off, the result don't work.



itīs not in the align to rail plugin, the uncheck to start is done in the rail extrude command.

122073

Ztreem
05-29-2014, 02:38 AM
You can also use the seashell tool for this its also interactive so you see the result while altering the settings.

Slartibartfast
05-29-2014, 03:24 AM
Hey Slartibartfast.... how are the planets? :D

They are good thank you! I'm very pleased with how the Norwegian fjords came out :D.

JoePoe
05-29-2014, 08:03 AM
itīs not in the align to rail plugin, the uncheck to start is done in the rail extrude command.

122073

Ah! okay, ..... I'm missing that in 9.6. 122078
So.. sorry if that was a simple solution, but I'm still not certain how not aligning to start would help. Guess I need to upgrade. :D
Isn't that what my tool options panel is doing by default? That's why I need the other plug (align to rail). It's doing the ..... aligning :)

jeric_synergy
05-29-2014, 09:39 AM
I played around with this a little last night before....SQUIRRELL! --Where was I? Oh yeah: if I used the plugin AligntoRail AND used "ALIGN" in the Helix tool, the results were wonky.

I think to get the results we expect, the Rail needs Control Points at each end. ALignToRail and "Align" both rotate a simple square to conform to the spline mathematically, which is not what I would especially want, even if it is "correct".

I'm still wondering if POINTS in LWM have any rotational characteristics (I never thought so): it seems like if they did, splines (Curves) could be a lot more powerful, as you could use a point's rotation to shape the spline.

Tony3d
05-29-2014, 11:41 AM
I tried the align plugin, but I get this error. I loaded the 9X version. The rail one works fine, but centered gives this error. Lightwave 11.6.3.

jeric_synergy
05-29-2014, 12:23 PM
I tried the align plugin, but I get this error. I loaded the 9X version. The rail one works fine, but centered gives this error. Lightwave 11.6.3.

I think you can only use ONE rail with the AlignToRail plugins generally-- otherwise how would it know?
Also, the one I use has to have the Rail in the background layer.

(PLUS, you have to select ONE and ONLY ONE poly to align, although it will rotate everything in the layer.)

Tony3d
05-29-2014, 12:42 PM
I think you can only use ONE rail with the AlignToRail plugins generally-- otherwise how would it know?
Also, the one I use has to have the Rail in the background layer.

(PLUS, you have to select ONE and ONLY ONE poly to align, although it will rotate everything in the layer.)

My version is suppose to center the poly between two rails.

jeric_synergy
05-29-2014, 01:04 PM
I'm using Carl Merritt's (2001!) plugin-- which are you using? That sounds handy-- can it handle more than 2 rails?

JoePoe
05-29-2014, 01:36 PM
I'm using Carl Merritt's (2001!) plugin-- which are you using? That sounds handy-- can it handle more than 2 rails?

Certainly!
How'd ya get past the database page without watching Erikals vid? That's like the first rule of fight club :D. (oops wasn't supposed to mention that).


BUT, I'm getting the same error now. While it would be nice to have the error answer (could be a mac thing), all I can suggest at the moment is to align to just one and nudge it to be more of an average.
In this particular case you are right on axis so .... no trouble really.

Edit: Is Merritt's plug even necessary anymore? Sounds like native Rail Extrude has this capability now (at least a single rail for sure).

prometheus
05-29-2014, 02:19 PM
:neener:
Ah! okay, ..... I'm missing that in 9.6. 122078
So.. sorry if that was a simple solution, but I'm still not certain how not aligning to start would help. Guess I need to upgrade. :D
Isn't that what my tool options panel is doing by default? That's why I need the other plug (align to rail). It's doing the ..... aligning :)


Yeah..that is of course correct..lw 11.6 and railextrude only needs the railextrude since the align to start is implemented, and in such case..you of course donīt have to run the other carl merrit plugin, but youré stuck in lw 9.6:neener:

not aligning to start was just a complementary fix if you had run the carl merrit plugin before rail extrude..and if you were on later lw versions, but as it now unfolded, completly unnecessary.

jeric_synergy
05-29-2014, 02:38 PM
Oy! How embarrassing.

Snosrap
05-29-2014, 07:33 PM
Is Merritt's plug even necessary anymore? Sounds like native Rail Extrude has this capability now (at least a single rail for sure). With the exception that it just does not work. - The aligning part anyways.

jeric_synergy
05-29-2014, 08:17 PM
with the exception that it just does not work. - the aligning part anyways.
vindicated!

JoePoe
05-29-2014, 08:32 PM
With the exception that it just does not work. - The aligning part anyways.

AH HA!! Thank you for posting an example! Talk is cheap is guess :D. I will not believe until I see with my own eyes from here on out.... unless work is proffered :).
That's terrible. How can this be though? A new feature added with absolutely no merit?? Forgot to take it out???

jeric_synergy
05-30-2014, 04:34 AM
It's more subtle with other "Rail" tools too: when using Rail CLONE, which Polygon gets used as the alignment reference?

Turns out to be moot, since on my test objects it didn't work. (Align worked in Rail Clone with individual polys.)

At best, ALIGN is flakey.

JoePoe
05-30-2014, 09:44 AM
It's more subtle with other "Rail" tools too: when using Rail CLONE, which Polygon gets used as the alignment reference?

Turns out to be moot, since on my test objects it didn't work. (Align worked in Rail Clone with individual polys.)

At best, ALIGN is flakey.

Hmm, well.... even Merritt's plug doesn't do objects.... just polys.
(btw I just realized the pun I missed.... LW added a feature to replace Merritt's plug but it had no.... wait for it..... me(r)rit(t)! :ohmy:
Okay, now that I got that out of my system....)

But it's not like this stuff is hard or impossible!!
There is/was(only32 bit) a plug by Pictrix called C_1stContact (https://www.lightwave3d.com/assets/plugins/contains/contact/). That worked on objects like a charm and it was made for LW version 7.5!!

edit: well what do I know. I'm not a programmer. Could be very hard. The point is it's been done before. A long while ago.

jeric_synergy
05-30-2014, 11:03 AM
This kind of thing is where the Scripting forums are invaluable: for instance, if the code fragment to calculate the normal of the endpoint of a curve were available, ADDING the capability of rotating the entire object could easily be added to an LScript similar to Carl Merritt's. --I bet Jen knows that math off the top of her head.

--Thanks to Rebel Hill's vector tutorials I actually FEEL I know what I'm talking about here, but only if I do it in nodes! :(

#awayFromLW -- is there an uncompiled script that does this? Because all one would do is apply the appropriate rotation to the entire object instead of just the selected poly. OR performa a "select connected" before rotation if one doesn't mind a few assumptions about the modeler's workflow.

In my related RAIL CLONE thread I suggest that LW3dG patch the various RAIL tools to a) make Align less flakey, and b) add the standard LW multi-selection behaviour of "first selection rules" any transformation. That'd be SWEET.