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private
11-22-2003, 07:23 AM
Will LW8.whatever have edges?

Edges probably won't come in first release of Lightwave 8 as Layout seems to be the focus. BUT WILL IT EVER COME IN THE FREE POINT RELEASES?

All the talk about edges not being possible with the existing code has been said before. However, if we want to model with edges, do we have to pay for a new modeler if it's not going to be tackled for free with the Lightwave 8 purchase?

I would really like Newtek to say, "Yes" it will come sometime in the LW8.whatever, or to say, "No" it will not come until LW9.

I won't hold my breath for a response, but thought I'd ask nonetheless.

CB_3D
11-22-2003, 09:23 AM
youŽd be purple by now...

cresshead
11-22-2003, 12:24 PM
actually he'd be at least blue if not a shade of green/brown with the fungus growing over the corpse for holding a breath for 6 months!

i think you may get some sort of edge capability in lw 8 but probably not a full blown "edge mode" like you have point, poly and volume currently.

if not you can get some edge capability with either free plugins or commercial plugins for lw7.5 already..so they'd just need to be recompiled for lw 8

steve g

Elmar Moelzer
11-22-2003, 12:55 PM
Why do you think that plugins have to be recompiled for LW8.0?
CU
Elmar

EyesClosed
11-22-2003, 03:31 PM
LightWave will never have real edges. If you must have an edge modeler; go get Wings 3D (free) or just wait a few months for Modo.

hrgiger
11-22-2003, 04:39 PM
Originally posted by EyesClosed
LightWave will never have real edges. If you must have an edge modeler; go get Wings 3D (free) or just wait a few months for Modo.

You can't say that for certain.

private
11-22-2003, 06:12 PM
Originally posted by cresshead
if not you can get some edge capability with either free plugins or commercial plugins for lw7.5 already..so they'd just need to be recompiled for lw 8

For example?

riki
11-22-2003, 06:57 PM
December is almost here, it can't be much longer before we find out. In any case I'm not buying until it's released and I know what I'm getting.

cresshead
11-22-2003, 07:44 PM
so CIM, tell me that you now own newtek and run the show from atop a big hill and have decreed that edges will never come to any future lightwave...

that's it then i'm off to buy truespace 6.0!

steve g:D :D :D

KillMe
11-22-2003, 08:25 PM
ok i dont see why edges are so difficult that they will never make it into lightwave all an edge is is the line between 2 points so all you have to be able to do is to tell lightwave only to react to whats between teh points

as for rewriting the lwo format why? it is the saved object why it need ot know what the edges are i have no idea since as i pointed out its simply 2 points so if the program can be made to recognise whats and edge the format doesn't need to spell it out for program

abit like you can save a model from lightwave import to maya or something and then the edge tools will work

EyesClosed
11-22-2003, 08:35 PM
For LW to have true edges, Newtek would have to overhaul or totally rewrite modeler (which desperately needs to be done anyway).

Newtek has stated that LW 8.x is the last of the old core, and that a rewrite will follow. Clearly, whatever their new product is, it's not going to be called LW, just as Luxology's program isn't going to be called LW.

hrgiger
11-22-2003, 10:03 PM
Originally posted by EyesClosed
For LW to have true edges, Newtek would have to overhaul or totally rewrite modeler

Again, you don't know that.


Originally posted by EyesClosed

Newtek has stated that LW 8.x is the last of the old core, and that a rewrite will follow.

Uh, no they didn't say that.

Elmar Moelzer
11-22-2003, 10:35 PM
The new dev- team is very dedicated to LW and I think that everything is possible.
And I really have to wonder about where some people get their information from:

Who in the dev- team did ever state publicly that we would never see edges, edge- weighting?
BTW, I think that edge- weighting is too often mixed up with Polygon- weighting.
E.g. If you want turn a subpatched box into a cylinder with weights, you wont be able to do that with edge- weighting.
You would have to weight the top and bottom polygons!

What member of the dev- team ever said oublicly, that plugins have to be recompiled to work with LW8.0?

What member of the dev- team ever said publicly that Modeler needs a complete rewrite?

BTW, from what I have seen so far, I dont think that Modo is a complete rewrite. I would be very, very surprised if more than 40% of its core- code was actually new.
Much of the functonality that was shown in the videos is allready there (just have a look arround in the current interface and you will find a lot of the "new" interface- functions, that were shown).
CU
Elmar

WizCraker
11-23-2003, 12:00 AM
Looks like they should of banned your IP.


Originally posted by EyesClosed
For LW to have true edges, Newtek would have to overhaul or totally rewrite modeler (which desperately needs to be done anyway).


Who made you the Coding Guru? Modeler does not need a rewite you do.


Newtek has stated that LW 8.x is the last of the old core, and that a rewrite will follow. Clearly, whatever their new product is, it's not going to be called LW, just as Luxology's program isn't going to be called LW.

Where do you get your infomation from? I haven't seen Newtek release any of these allegations that 8 will be the last in the current application engine. And why woudn't Newtek keep the name Lightwave? Tell us did you get visited by little green aliens who telepathically told you this? I Highly doubt Newtek would give up the name Lightwave as when people in the industry know what it is and who it comes from when they see or hear it. Lucxology can't call their program Lightwave as that would be illegal and a straight violation of Newtek's Trademark.

All you do on this forum is complain about how Lightwave does not have something, or how bad Lightwave compares to other Packages. How about you go here (http://www.alias.com/eng/support/maya/discussions/index.jhtml) and complain.

toby
11-23-2003, 12:24 AM
Originally posted by private
For example?

dude did you go to Flay.com and do a search for 'edges'?

jin choung
11-23-2003, 12:38 AM
sigh....

ok, so there are people who are ludicrously optimistic here so let me be the cold cold voice of reality.

we're not getting edges in 8.0... guaranteed. believe it if you want, cling to it if you must, but you will be bitterly disappointed then when the day comes. then, will you be twice as bitter and mean spirited than those who foresee the lack now.

we will get an included version of the already free edge tool and the ability to draw edges and such but we won't be able to select edges like we can polys or verts and we won't be able to weight them for sds.

anyone says any different, care to wager?

who said that 8.0 is the last iteration before a complete rewrite?! tell me where i can find that quote!

i don't remember anybody EVER saying that... even though i believe with a passion that this is an absolute necessity.

i mean, come on, i can't see the texture on the surface editor balls in MODELER?! are [email protected]#$ing kidding me? this for me is also a prime example of what's wrong with keeping the apps separate.

THERE IS A MOFOing CONSEQUENCE -- SUCH THAT CODING SOMETHING FOR LAYOUT DOES NOT TRANSLATE TO MODELER....

i am hunkering down to getting nice and disappointed when the modeler feature list is released.... i'm prepared to get NONE of the features that many of us feel are important like edges and edgeweighting, uv weld/unweld fix, a better texture guide, anything that's really important....

if anything, i expect a boatload of 'features' that i'm gonna look at and go WTF?!?!?! who the f2#$ asked for that?! WTF is that gonna be good for?!

sigh....

jin

jin choung
11-23-2003, 12:46 AM
even WORSE is that newtek is attempting to muddle the issue by the inclusion of the free edge tools (damnit i forgot who wrote it... it's japanese i think).

anyway, those tools are available RIGHT FRIGGING NOW.

but they're gonna trumpet that eight has new edge tools even though most of us DO NOT CONSIDER THAT EDGE SUPPORT!

of course, we all know that TRUE edge support would enable you to select edges just like verts and polys... it would be something you cycle through upon hitting the space bar, it would give you OPERATIONS that you can perform on edges just like you can with verts and polys, it would allow you to weight them for sds....

sigh, this is gonna be disappointing for modeler unless they slip the release date.

jin

j3st3r
11-23-2003, 12:55 AM
Stupid thread, and I am more stupid to get involved...
But CIMEyes, or ClosedCIM is right to a certain level.

It was stated almost a year ago that LW8 will be the next generation of LW. It was stated when the Lux-Newtek affair has not even begun. We all know that few things are changed since then, only colosed eyes cannot see what is obviuous.

Currently I am satisfied with the existing edge solution, although it is needed to implement edges as native habitant of LW.

Lee had dropped few information, later they appeared to be incorrect. That could led to some misunderstanding.

The edge operations now implemented into LW, Ikeda Powertools and edge bevel, and as I heard DStorm`s edge tools.

I see that the new team is absolutely dedicated to the task. I see that God took 6 days to create the world, so building a new LW takes more.

What I hate, is that the Lux, Lux guys are now bad guys. I`m pretty sure, that those who blame them, were very happy with them. I checked few month ago the old forum.

I`m pretty sure, that Lux and Newtek agreed. Stuart granted the right to Newtek to develop modeller as they wish, but Lux may use the result of the earlier development of the next gen of LW. I`m pretty sure, that`s the reason why modo is so modeler-like. Until now no one had objected it.

I asked Brad Peebler for the possibility of demo. He told me that with the studios involved they are running the closed beta, but it is possible that in January they will have a public-beta as well. Modo is to be released in Q1 2004, as Brad told me. I think he is a smart guy, he didn`t react to LW in a hostile way, but his vision of LW was different. I don`t understand why anybody blames them.

LW has weak points. I think that the weakest is that the plugins don`t communicate each other, or they are not integrated. I hope that the new CA tools will be INTEGRATED

jin choung
11-23-2003, 01:04 AM
hey, i don't 'hate' lux... but i just KNOW that i'm not gonna pay $400 for a program that JUST models!

and considering how incompatible SDS (unlike nurbs, there IS NO STANDARD-- EVERYBODY USES A DIFFERENT KIND -- NOBODY CAN SEND SDS TO EACH OTHER) is - especially as it regards the way UVs for SDS are handled by different apps, i can't even begin to imagine what they think their chances are....

jin

Elmar Moelzer
11-23-2003, 01:25 AM
Hey Jin!
As a long- time- reader of this forum you certainly know that the focus LW8.0 (!) is on Layout.
There will be other upgrades to follow, that will focus on areas of LW, that have not seen that much work in LW8.0.
I have never said that there will be edge- support in LW8.0, but there may be edge- support in Modeler in another update.
Again, it is impossible to focus on everything at the same time and I think that focusing on LWs animation- capabilities was a smart move of the new dev- team. We all know that LW needed the most work there. I think you will agree with me on that, right?
Oh and I still dont think that Modeler needs a "rewrite".
CU
Elmar

j3st3r
11-23-2003, 02:31 AM
I think a rewrite is needed. But no so urgently. It`s enough if LW begin to grow up to the standards of the industry.

EyesClosed
11-23-2003, 02:52 AM
and considering how incompatible SDS (unlike nurbs, there IS NO STANDARD-- EVERYBODY USES A DIFFERENT KIND -- NOBODY CAN SEND SDS TO EACH OTHER) is - especially as it regards the way UVs for SDS are handled by different apps, i can't even begin to imagine what they think their chances are....

Why would you even think about sending SubPatch objects over to another program? What are you too lazy to convert to subdivision surfaces in another program and/or do your UV mapping there?


hey, i don't 'hate' lux... but i just KNOW that i'm not gonna pay $400 for a program that JUST models!

So, if Newtek sold Modeler seperately, you think they'd make it 10 bucks? Get real. :rolleyes:

j3st3r
11-23-2003, 02:57 AM
One more thing. The most popular subdiv algorythm is the Catmull-Clark scheme, I`m pretty sure that LW utilize the same.
The same cage produce more or less the same subdiv surface in separate apps. I don`t think it`s a big deal. And yes, my company would pay even a 1000 bucks for a properly working, pipeline friendly modelling app. If modo worth we will pay it. That`s business without emotions. Wings is excellent, but lacks the surface modelling. Modo looks promising, I`ve tried Silo demo, I didn`t like it, it was too clumsy to me.

js33
11-23-2003, 03:00 AM
I don't see why people that want features that aren't in LW and maybe never will be just don't go use Maya or Max or XSI instead of staying here and bitching forever. :rolleyes:

Why waste your time with LW if you need features LW doesn't have?

Cheers,
JS

jin choung
11-23-2003, 03:07 AM
whoa,

somebody's compass is severely outta whack here....

- ya might want to send your sds out of luxology so that you can actually USE IT FOR SOMETHING! modo doesn't animate. modo doesn't render... if it's not going anywhere, they are truly truly doomed.

- so, it does not matter that luxology has a really cool way of uv mapping an sds patch surface. because you can't send the uv mapped model anywhere....

- so, it does not matter that they have a really cool way of not only weighting verts but weighting edges and polys to alter the curvature of your sds mesh... cuz you can't send that model out anywhere....

sure, you could freeze it but then you have a super high dense mesh that loses all advantages of coming from an 'sds modeler'....

sure, you could send a low poly version but then basically, you must reweight edges, verts, polys and re-uvmap everything in the package you plan to skin/animate/render in... which makes modo no better than a $400 simple POLY modeler!

- so, since sds surfaces can't go anywhere, they might as well make the most basic kind of sds without uv maps or weighting (catmull clark) and therefore, it's NOT any better than lightwave's modeler... hell, it's not any better than iSilo which is a $100....

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

see the problem here? the better they make their SDS, the LESS LIKELY it will end up in usable form in any other rendering/animation app!!!

and the more likely it is you have to do everything AGAIN in the render/animation app. can you say WASTE OF TIME AND MONEY?

conversely, the less sophisticated they make their sds (in order to maintain some form of compatibility, the more of a waste of money it will be for users). why not just use iSilo? hell, why not just use WINGS for heaven's sakes.

for lw and xsi and maya, this incompatibility is not too bad because you can just STAY in your proprietary environment where you can use the sds features that are in your pkg.

but modo is an sds MODELER -- ONLY! it's MEANT to send stuff modeled in their app to OTHER APPS.

BIG FREAKIN' PROBLEM.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

and i'm supposed to pay $400 for that?! for a modeler that will be better but whose benefits cannot be realized anywhere? or for an app that is simpler and more simplistic than Modeler which i already own? :rolleyes:

jeez, if luxology doesn't have a more sophisticated take on this than you do, they really are well and truly DOOMED.

jin

js33
11-23-2003, 03:19 AM
Well I think lux probably know what needs to be done. ;)

Cheers,
JS

jin choung
11-23-2003, 03:28 AM
if all you need or want is catmull-clark, what's wrong with modeling in lw's modeler?! i don't think it is exactly catmull clark but it's close enough - turning the verts of polys to the control cage of a bspline patch surface basically....

what people want from the ultimate SDS solution is the ability to:

WEIGHT VERTICES

WEIGHT EDGES

WEIGHT FACES

UV MAP the curvature of an SDS surface WITHOUT DISTORTION.

and these are precisely the things that CAN'T GO FROM APP TO APP because EVERYBODY DOES IT DIFFERENTLY! no standards!

you make it sound like this is not a big deal but it is a BIG BIG DEAL.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

again, the problem is if they make modo do all of the above, it's USELESS because you can't EXPORT THAT!!!

and if modo doesn't have any of the above, then why would ANYBODY buy it?!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

and to the other '3 in the name guy', jeez, where does all this 'love it or leave it' sentiment come from? bitching is what makes america great.

jin

jin choung
11-23-2003, 03:37 AM
well i don't know what wonderful world you come from... but i've found, that as a general rule, that trusting that people know what they're doing... isn't a wise idea....

if walking is considered a 'controlled fall', humanity and his endeavors are engaged in the varying stages of an ongoing disaster.

:)

jin



Originally posted by js33
Well I think lux probably know what needs to be done. ;)

Cheers,
JS

jin choung
11-23-2003, 03:49 AM
come to think of it jester,

lux's only hope is to differ with you about the importance of sending sds surfaces from app to app and make it ALL IMPORTANT.

lux's only hope is to make modo a UNIVERSAL SDS TRANSLATOR.

then, if they make the BEST SDS MODELER EVER WITH EVERY FEATURE DESIRABLE-

AND

they can translate all those benefits to sds models in formats compatible with lw, c4d, xsi, maya, etc....

then and ONLY THEN, do they have a shot.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

i doubt they can pull that off though... maya's sds is from pixar and patented... boucoup bucks. and if they have to pay pixar, xsi will probably ask for licensing, newtek will ask for licensing, etc....

these companies would unlikely give modo something that will only benefit luxology sales right?

so i go back to my forecast of 'they're doomed'.

jin

js33
11-23-2003, 03:51 AM
Hi Jin from the 'other 3 in the name guy'. I was first with the 3. :D

Hehehe. I think Lux wouldn't be wasting their time making an app that nobody can use. Do you?

Also I'm sure they have plans for other modules as well.

Also the "Love or leave it" is just this. No ones saying you can't *****. In fact that is what drives changes. But my point is that if you need feature x, y or z and LW doesn't have it or maybe never will then why waste your time bitching about it when you could just go use app a, b or c that already has the features you want or need.

Cheers,
JS

jin choung
11-23-2003, 04:18 AM
hey js33,

everybody believes passionately in what they're doing... and more often than not, that ends up being a really terrific problem. believing what you're doing and having the vision to see the situation clearly has an odd way of not wanting to go together.

and when they don't you get everything from alcohol free beer to really very unattractive strippers.

as for modules, as soon as i heard about modo, i thought it would make sense to hook up with messiah... a natural fit dontcha think? but i hear those guys don't like each other.

shrug.

jin

j3st3r
11-23-2003, 05:47 AM
js33,

I do believe that LW is a very capable pack, excellent price tag, etc. I love LW, I ask every employer of mine to purchase LW to me, because it`s the best pack, etc. But as a river sharpens his axe, I like to my tool be sharpened. Believe me, I was working with MAX for years, I am using now Maya (for animation), and I`m learning XSI. I prefer LW. And I like to see the good ideas of other packages incorporated in LW. If I wouldn`t love LW I would never care about this.

About modo. Modo (as Brad told) is a tool. I`m pretty sure, that it uses basically the Catmull-Clark SDS algorythm, but allowing ngons to be subdivided in realtime. Also it is told, that it could incorporate custom algorythms. Think this. Basically your model will look the same in all packs. But, for example you have your custom pack, utilizing a different SDS algorythm. All you need is to write your SDS plugin to modo.

I think modo could be very production friendly, and my company is prepared for a test drive with it. As well as with the new LW.

I don`t see the reason, why anybody thrown with stone, when a feature request arose, or when somebody highlight a weakness of LW.

I`m pretty sure, the funboys harm most to NT than the so called naysayers. Without critique there is no developement, just stagnancy

Nemoid
11-23-2003, 06:04 AM
I think every app have its features . for now at least. CIM is right when he says about edges, and other things about Lw wich need a rewrite.
The reason its simple. Lw has NEVER been totally rewritten, so its only the evolution of its first incarnation. believe it or not.

that's why we currently have probs with non integrated plugs, no full integration between the 2 apps (it works through hub in fact) no real edge support, and no real unlimited undos in Layout.

on the other hand, quite every app over there has been rewritten, like XSI, Maya, Max. evolution FROM an old code has nothing to do with a rewrite of its base, so that the app is more flexible from its start.

since the base code was very well at that time,even with these probs, we are currently using Lw now.

however I think its possible to see edges for the future, especially if the new team reworks the code. this needs time though.

about Lux, I don't like to talk so much of a product wich is not out there yet. it apparently seems only a subpatch modelling module, very good, but we don't know Lux projects so well to tell surely you will never be able to export the modo work in other apps. an app conceived to wok well in mixed pipelines can't miss the features about exporting. a thing we know is that in modo you can import other sub-d algorithms. if thisnmeans smth, I think you can work with different kinda algorithms of the other apps you are going to work together with modo. maybe also some import /export plug will do the job. who knows?

we also know quite for sure that other modules are in development, so that in 2004 we will see smth about them, even if I think its early. when Lux will give us more infos we'll know.

P.S. I don't see why Nt have to change Lw name and logo, and I don't remember where they said [9] will be a rewrite, even if I hope so. if someone knows smth more can he/she post it?

Ciao from Italy!! :)

hrgiger
11-23-2003, 06:37 AM
Originally posted by EyesClosed

So, if Newtek sold Modeler seperately, you think they'd make it 10 bucks? Get real. :rolleyes:

Well first of all, Newtek would never do this so it's a moot point. Secondly, I would have to agree with Jin there, I'm not going to pay $400 for something I can already do in Lightwave and that's model. If I'm going to spend $400 or more on an external program, it's going to bring something to Lightwave that I can't already do.
Newtek never said anything about a rewrite. And I don't think you know enough about programming to say what Lightwave is or is not capable of in it's current implementation. Writing a couple of lscripts doesn't make you a programmer. When you can wrap those lscripts up in a .cp format, you just let us know. When you can give us examples of the LW code and why it wouldn't support edges, you just let us know. That goes for everyone else here as well that say Lightwave would need a re-write before it could support edges.

hrgiger
11-23-2003, 06:39 AM
And don't get me wrong, I'm sure a re-write would be great, but honestly, let's see what the new team at Newtek can do with Lightwave before passing your judgement.

TyVole
11-23-2003, 06:58 AM
It's really not a question of whether CIM knows enough about programming, but whether he specifically knows the LightWave code.

Only someone intimate with the code can state how difficult it would be.

And by the way, if by ".cp format," you meant C++ (.cpp files), it wouldn't help CIM -- LW plugs are written in standard C.

hrgiger
11-23-2003, 07:24 AM
C++ programs can either be written with the .cp or .cpp extention and can be used to write plug-ins as well.

TyVole
11-23-2003, 07:47 AM
I stand corrected -- I didn't know someone wrote a C++ wrapper for the SDK.

However, I don't think it is officially supported -- the entire SDK documentation (and all samples) are in C. C++ would also add a lot of overhead to the code.

In fact, my understanding is that the entire LW source code is in C.

private
11-23-2003, 08:18 AM
Originally posted by toby
dude did you go to Flay.com and do a search for 'edges'?

I want what Jin said:


Originally posted by jin choung
we all know that TRUE edge support would enable you to select edges just like verts and polys... it would be something you cycle through upon hitting the space bar, it would give you OPERATIONS that you can perform on edges just like you can with verts and polys, it would allow you to weight them for sds....

Rewrite or not, I just wanted to know if we will be getting edges in LW8.X. It seems, unless there is a huge shocker, that they aren't coming in 8.0. But what about down the line? I just want to know if they are coming in 8.whatever. Does my upgrade price and free point releases cover edges? Seems like most of us don't think so....where's a Newtekyian when you need him. Hey Chuck, you there?

hrgiger
11-23-2003, 08:37 AM
Even if he's there, I doubt he'll answer you(Well, he may answer you, but might not give you the answer you're looking for). Not a lot of information has been given about modeler for LW8 yet and that'll probably hold true until it ships. Maybe there's a reason for it, maybe not but we probably won't find out until then. In a recent 3D world, they mentioned improvements to modeler but they weren't specific of course. They did mention the words equal emphisis as other areas of Lightwave. Right now it doesn't seem as if much is being done to modeler but that's only because we haven't heard otherwise.
What kind of edge support are you talking about Private? Are you talking about splitting edges or sharpening edges?

TyVole
11-23-2003, 09:24 AM
I think what people are seeking is the ability to operate on edges the same way they operate on verticies and faces -- as you can do in other modelers such as Wings3d or even Blender.

It's more than just adding or manipulating edges -- but the ability perform the entire applicable toolset on edges.

KillMe
11-23-2003, 11:07 AM
Originally posted by TyVole
I think what people are seeking is the ability to operate on edges the same way they operate on verticies and faces -- as you can do in other modelers such as Wings3d or even Blender.

It's more than just adding or manipulating edges -- but the ability perform the entire applicable toolset on edges.

mostly edges can be treated as 2 points so it shouldn't be to hard - its tools like bevel and extender than need to notice where the edges end so that when selecting 2 edges of a cube itdoes extende the otehr two aswell

but i cant see any logical reason why it should eb so hard ot implement but then programing is not an area i have any skill and perahps its not logical at all

Dodgy
11-23-2003, 12:00 PM
I don't see why everyone gets so heated about this. From everything I've read or seen, I doubt 8 will have edges. NT haven't said anything either way, so why bother speculating. It only gets you bust blood vessels. They've said there will be improvements to modeler, but that's all. 8 will be out soon, and then we can see what those are.

j3st3r
11-23-2003, 12:25 PM
I don`t understand why people are so desperate about edges. The tools that allowed us to work with edges are now implemented in LW. So edges operations can be done easily. Edge weighting is another issue, I woudn`t even use it, because I work in a LW-Maya environment. But even if my work would be done entirely in LW I would never use edge weighting...I prefer to model every detail out.

But by the way. I`m a mid of a LW only project. What I do hope, that bone shade will be fast in the next version...It`s a pain in the *** to check the bone effects...Oh, yes and UV distortion on subd...

amorano
11-23-2003, 12:26 PM
Originally posted by TyVole
I stand corrected -- I didn't know someone wrote a C++ wrapper for the SDK.

However, I don't think it is officially supported -- the entire SDK documentation (and all samples) are in C. C++ would also add a lot of overhead to the code.

In fact, my understanding is that the entire LW source code is in C.

You obviously are not a programmer. There are about two lines of "overhead" to making a C++ plugin.

Edges would be nice in 8, but I am sure it won't be there simply because the infamous NT policy of buy a plugin, add a plugin is already in effect.

A rewrite is needed for a lot more than anyone here has said. Maybe becuase of ignorance of what programming is, or how it actually works behind the scenes.

You do not need to see the source code of LW to know how it works. We have an SDK. That gives a very good view of a very old architecture upon which LW resides.

j3st3r
11-23-2003, 12:43 PM
Sure. It`s obviuous that LW should reborn.

Old architecture means lot of limitations. And requires lot of workarounds. Look, the rest of the apps are reborn.

Key elements now, the parametrization. Nonlinearity. Editable history.

I had a work lately, and I had to build few cartoony houses. I had a concept art. The model was relatively simple, but it was bent, tapered, etc. The client asked me for smaller windows, greater space between the windows, balcony, and other bending, and assymetrical tapering. If I had a history, it`s just a few click. Since I hadn`t, I had to rebuild the whole house from the scratch. And if someone asks why I don`t use MAX, I tell, that I DON`T WANT MAX, I WANT USE LW.

And to those, who say, history is an unnecessary thing, I say, get a job like this for a hundred time, and then you will BEG for a history

Back to the architecture. Clever folks stated that for normal undo or history LW should be rewritten. So, let`s go. I trust the new team

TyVole
11-23-2003, 01:31 PM
Originally posted by amorano
You obviously are not a programmer. There are about two lines of "overhead" to making a C++ plugin.

I actually am a programmer, with more than a dozen years of professional programming experience. And a computer science degree from a top university.

What I meant was by "overhead" was the amount of unnecessary object code created by the C++ compiler.

If you didn't understand what I meant, you obviously aren't a programmer.

TyVole
11-23-2003, 01:38 PM
Originally posted by amorano

You do not need to see the source code of LW to know how it works. We have an SDK. That gives a very good view of a very old architecture upon which LW resides.

This is an extremely ignorant statement. The SDK provides very little knowledge about the internal data structures embedded in LightWave. It doesn't provide the slightest clue about the difficulty of adding edges.

amorano
11-23-2003, 01:42 PM
Originally posted by TyVole
I actually am a programmer, with more than a dozen years of professional programming experience. And a computer science degree from a top university.

What I meant was by "overhead" was the amount of unnecessary object code created by the C++ compiler.

If you didn't understand what I meant, you obviously aren't a programmer.


Wow, and I thought my 18 years was a lot. I suppose I am not a programmer having done it for almost 2 decades, thanks for the update.

Your statement is ignorant. All of the structures are exposed in the headers. Maybe you should learn to read instead of posting untrue facts.

Not to mention, as it has been stated many times by many people who used to be in the know, on the plugin list, EDGES would be extremely difficult to add to the existing INTERNAL structures.

Again, go read before posting BS about which you obviously have no clue.

TyVole
11-23-2003, 02:00 PM
Originally posted by amorano
All of the structures are exposed in the headers.

This is not true. The SDK (and all SDKs that I know) exposes only what a company wants to expose to third-party developers to enable them to create add-ons.

Please, Mr. Genius, direct to me to the header file that exposes LightWave internal data structures.

And it's pretty interesting that after 18 years of programming you don't know the difference between source code and object code.

As for not BSing about something I know nothing about, I will dutifully follow your lead.

hrgiger
11-23-2003, 02:07 PM
Ok guys...

I"m not sure this is the forum for arguing about who is the genius programmer. But if you have something to add about what the code reveals about how easy or hard it is to add edges, then please feel free to insert that information in with the bickering. Otherwise, you're off topic by fighting amongst yourselves and you can take that to private messaging.

TyVole
11-23-2003, 02:10 PM
Point well taken.

wacom
11-23-2003, 02:34 PM
Are there not better things to be pissed off about in life folks? I don't care if you're a programer, CIM, jin, or anyone else other than employee at Newtek- you don't know what's going on in the end. We can't even say from OUR point of view what 8 is going to be like 'till its out unless your a beta tester. Why not just wait?

And while it's true that modeler is the strongest point of LW at this time (7.5c) Layout IS and did need some seriouse help. Many people still use LW for EVERYTHING or damd near it- for those people the update to Layout was needed.

Edges, microbumps, better UV, Faster shaders and rendering, a more open SDK, better intergration of certain plugins, better print support, better normal maping and displacement, better snaping and mesurement systems, and on an on- no one would say no to these and more. To say that Newtek can't do it EVER and speculate why is just plain foolish. Go get an Amiga and play wiht an older version of LW and tell me with a straight face that Newtek isn't capable of progress with Lightwave.

Oh and I've only programed the simplest of things with Pascal- so I don't know jack about programing. I do however know that attacking people outright makes you look like an *** and only adds to the cluttering of these message boards with irrelevant dribble.

I think quite a few people here with valid points could do well by learing the old art of "persuasion" and replace their argumentative form called "***** attack" with it.

Am I a fool for giving Newtek my 500 bucks for an 8 upgrade? Not if I REALLy want to use LW in the future past 8. Money talks or else developers walk.
By paying and saying why, or not paying and saying why you are sending a clear message. However know that when you state it there is someone who might want other things done to LW- and if they are more persuasive than you it just might tip the scales in a programers mind.

amorano
11-23-2003, 02:38 PM
Originally posted by wacom
I think quite a few people here with valid points could do well by learing the old art of "persuasion" and replace their argumentative form called "***** attack" with it.


True.

Back to modelling and waiting.

EyesClosed
11-23-2003, 03:03 PM
Originally posted by jin choung
whoa,

somebody's compass is severely outta whack here....

- ya might want to send your sds out of luxology so that you can actually USE IT FOR SOMETHING! modo doesn't animate. modo doesn't render... if it's not going anywhere, they are truly truly doomed.

- so, it does not matter that luxology has a really cool way of uv mapping an sds patch surface. because you can't send the uv mapped model anywhere....

- so, it does not matter that they have a really cool way of not only weighting verts but weighting edges and polys to alter the curvature of your sds mesh... cuz you can't send that model out anywhere....

sure, you could freeze it but then you have a super high dense mesh that loses all advantages of coming from an 'sds modeler'....

sure, you could send a low poly version but then basically, you must reweight edges, verts, polys and re-uvmap everything in the package you plan to skin/animate/render in... which makes modo no better than a $400 simple POLY modeler!

- so, since sds surfaces can't go anywhere, they might as well make the most basic kind of sds without uv maps or weighting (catmull clark) and therefore, it's NOT any better than lightwave's modeler... hell, it's not any better than iSilo which is a $100....

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

see the problem here? the better they make their SDS, the LESS LIKELY it will end up in usable form in any other rendering/animation app!!!

and the more likely it is you have to do everything AGAIN in the render/animation app. can you say WASTE OF TIME AND MONEY?

conversely, the less sophisticated they make their sds (in order to maintain some form of compatibility, the more of a waste of money it will be for users). why not just use iSilo? hell, why not just use WINGS for heaven's sakes.

for lw and xsi and maya, this incompatibility is not too bad because you can just STAY in your proprietary environment where you can use the sds features that are in your pkg.

but modo is an sds MODELER -- ONLY! it's MEANT to send stuff modeled in their app to OTHER APPS.

BIG FREAKIN' PROBLEM.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

and i'm supposed to pay $400 for that?! for a modeler that will be better but whose benefits cannot be realized anywhere? or for an app that is simpler and more simplistic than Modeler which i already own? :rolleyes:

jeez, if luxology doesn't have a more sophisticated take on this than you do, they really are well and truly DOOMED.

jin

Modo is only one module of many. Luxology will eventually have a full program, just like Maya, XSI, etc (feature wise).

There is NO program out their that can read anothers version of sds, so why are you wasting your time ignorantly downing Modo?

Clearly you are too much of a novice to understand a basic workflow--or too stubborn. Just stick to LW, then you won't have to be bothered with smoothing in another program.

stone
11-23-2003, 04:38 PM
Originally posted by TyVole
The SDK provides very little knowledge about the internal data structures embedded in LightWave. It doesn't provide the slightest clue about the difficulty of adding edges.

tyvole is absolutely correct - only with access to the full source code can anyone know how easy/hard implementing edges or anything else would be.

the sdk havnt got the slightest thing to do with how lightwave works internally - and wont tell a thing about what the core is capable of and what it cant do.

a rewrite every few generations is always a good thing though, due to the evolution in the engine and the clutering that builds up - but claiming a rewrite is needed is pure nonsense since noone except those with full access to the source will be able to tell.

/stone

Chuck
11-23-2003, 07:17 PM
Originally posted by EyesClosed
For LW to have true edges, Newtek would have to overhaul or totally rewrite modeler (which desperately needs to be done anyway).

Newtek has stated that LW 8.x is the last of the old core, and that a rewrite will follow. Clearly, whatever their new product is, it's not going to be called LW, just as Luxology's program isn't going to be called LW.


We've said nothing of the kind, and your assumptions are in error. Even if it does turn out to be the case that we create a new architecture for our 3D product after the 8.x cycle, that product would still be LightWave 3D. We've revised the architecture before without renaming the product, and it would not make sense to abandon an established brand.

hrgiger
11-23-2003, 07:31 PM
CIM talking out of his butt and Chuck bringing reason to a wayward discussion....

Ahh, another day in the Newtek forums...

Chuck
11-23-2003, 07:34 PM
Originally posted by private
where's a Newtekyian when you need him.

Planting Columnar Italian Cypress trees in his new front yard and sunburning the heck out of his bald old head. :)

jin choung
11-23-2003, 10:18 PM
hey eyes closed,

you started it so here it comes [email protected]#....

modo is starting out as a modeler. it cannot do anything else. UNTIL IT CAN then, the difference between whether it can or cannot export SDS (which is what they are saying is THE SELLING POINT) is totall [email protected]#$ing crucial! max maya lw can't export their sds but they can use their sds in THEIR OWN PIPELINE!!!

i repeat, unless they have a universal exporter, they are [email protected]#$ed cuz otherwise, they're charging for a $400 poly modeler.

didja read the whole post? didja understand it at all? cuz your question paints you as an ignorant and fanatical yutz.

don't call people novice and don't get [email protected]#$ing personal you luxhugging pinhead -- cuz i don't rollover and i don't turn the other cheek.

jin

jin choung
11-23-2003, 10:27 PM
hey chuck,

as someone who has their thumb in the pr pie, dontcha think it might be wise to MODERATE EXPECTATION about modeler?

cuz the reaction of some to a blank feature list is boundless hope. i am somewhat less optimistic and unless you guys push out the ship date, i'm pretty sure it's gonna be pretty freakin cosmetic.

IF THAT IS SO-

wouldn't you guys get less backlash by prepping us for a less than revolutionary upgrade in modeler?

and when i post something that expresses little hope for desired updates, WHY COUNTER ME ON THAT if it's ultimately gonna turn out that you won't deliver?!

cuz believe it or not, even negative posts about modeler now is actually doing a service precisely by MODERATING EXPECTATION.

but if you counter me on it and then fail to deliver... heaven help ya.

jin

ghopper
11-23-2003, 10:34 PM
jin choung and eyesclosed - LOL

Moderators, please don't ban either of them - they make this forum quite enjoyable ;)

Eitherway, I'm a total novice and probably know half as much as jin choung and eyesclosed do, that's why I rather shut up and won't make any speculations about MODO and the next LW but rather wait and see what they will release.

All I know ( or presume should I say ) is that the people at LUX probably aren't that stupid to release an app that can't really be used with other apps. As you said Jin, who needs another Modeler if it can't be integrated into existing pipelines. If they do however - yes then I think they will have a few problems selling MODO long term.

Let's just see and wait for more information rather than making speculations - fact is we don't know enough about it to make any solid statements.

peace

jin choung
11-23-2003, 10:56 PM
howdy ghopper,

your humility will serve you well. i got tired of mine and have cultivated a quick temper and an affinity to all out brawls... :)

as for-


Originally posted by ghopper
jin choung and eyesclosed - LOL

All I know ( or presume should I say ) is that the people at LUX probably aren't that stupid to release an app that can't really be used with other apps.



again, i appeal to the existence of non-alcoholic beer.... the world is full of visionaries and some smoke some wacky wacky weed....

jin

diya
11-24-2003, 05:34 AM
Hi all,

I'm using LW for about 6-7 years, and there are something that I'm very sure of them; First, Newtek never, never surprised me so far... They did never release a technology or feature that made me wooow!! If there would be edges in lw8, I'd be surprized. So you can just forget about edges. And, believe me if newtek would have been implementing the edges in lw8, they had been shouting and yelling; "yehaaaa!! we have edges, hooorayyy... yes they are there, yes, yes, yes!!! we have put them there, this is it yeeeaaaah!!!" :)

But all we have is; "...improvements on CA workflow, hard body dynamics...." WHAT ?!? again please??? how are they improved, comparing to what?!? Tell me the real thing! it shouldn't be a excuse saying that tools are still in development, then tell us what they will look like when you have finished. Or just stop this cheap strategies and act like a serious company.

Also I wouldn't be wondering much about the edges thing, really. There are more serious weaknesses. believe me edge weighting for subdvs is not a very cool thing when you are modelling something other than simple primitives, but I'd like to see them in our hands, too. In my opinion we have to be thinking about some real and useful deformations in layout, some up to date technologies in rendering system like micro bump mapping, a smart skin or muscling system that really works, real enhancements on surface editor workflow, fixing of silly bugs and problems about hypervoxels, must have features on UVmapping like relaxing, better and clever symmetry tool, a real and useful snap tools (is that really so difficult???) and better communication solution than our holy lwhub, just to name a few... Just check out some tools in XSI 3.0 or 3.5 about modelling, snapping and its brilliant symmetry tools, then load up the modeler and feel like you are five years back in time...

Later,
Diya.

private
11-24-2003, 06:01 AM
Originally posted by Chuck
Planting Columnar Italian Cypress trees in his new front yard and sunburning the heck out of his bald old head. :)

Haha. Would it be the "edge" of your head?

j3st3r
11-24-2003, 06:59 AM
It looks like that nobody reads my posts.

I repeat, most software uses Catmull-Clark SDS. Therefor with a minimal differences you`ll got almost the same result from the same cage in different packs.

For example, in lord of the rings, Gollum was modelled in mirai. Than the cage model was imported to maya (with it`s blendshapes, etc). Intersting...

Serious pipelines doesn`t stand on one leg. LW is very good pack, but there are other packs also, better or weaker on several areas of production. I would welcome a better modeling tool, but I didn`t found yet. That`s why I`m working in LW. I am intersted in only ONE thing: productivity. If I am more productive with another tool, I will switch. That`s business. Currently I`m very fine with LW, and I`m pretty sure that Newtek will suprise us with the 8 release, and the 8.x releases as well.

kamil_w
11-24-2003, 07:27 AM
>>..maya's sds is from pixar and patented...

Maya`s hsds are indeed patented but they are NOT from Pixar.

They are based on Alias` unique technology developed by Jos Stam.

He is research scientist at Alias and the one behind Maya Fluids and other things to come.

Maya hsds currently use CC scheme but this technique is not limited to CC.

Nemoid
11-24-2003, 10:15 AM
Yap this kinda SDS in Maya seems to be very different. not expert about them at all.

as for edges in Lw maybe Nt will work to them for the future? we don't know. sure that a modeler like Lw, wich have some great tools indeed, no edges seems a lack now. however, many things can be done even without edge manipulation.

in a good studio pipeline Lw works surely good still now, especially coupled with other apps very good in animation.

I am happy with the fact that Nt is working on Layout and CA tools and I hope they will be good. maybe this will involve more than a release , so things could go beyond [8] release.

I also think that after [8] starting release, more and good things will come. the new team will have more knowledge of what Lw need, and how to implement it, and Nt will have more resources
for sure.

WizCraker
11-24-2003, 10:44 AM
I'll be the odd person out, I like Houdini's approach to modeling over the other packages. Yes true there is a steep learning curve but it is well worth it in the end.

j3st3r
11-24-2003, 10:55 AM
I`m sorry to know nothing about Houdini...But I prefer the direct way of modeling, like LW, mirai and nendo has. Although a history would come handy in many cases

WizCraker
11-24-2003, 11:22 AM
Houdini is fully procedual and is node based, so if you need to change something at any step in the final process you can go back to the first nodes and change there and it will auto update throughout. It is very cool on how powerful it is, I forsee the future that all companies will have their modeling and animation in a node based enviroment.

hrgiger
11-24-2003, 02:13 PM
I just wanted to add that I went ahead and downloaded Wings 3D to try out the edge selection and manipulation tools. All I can say is wow. I guess I didn't think that eges (as far as modeling goes, not weighting) were that big a deal but I think they would change the way I modeled entirely. Now I'm really going to be behind the "asking for edges" camp I fear. What a powerful addition to modeler that would be!
I think if Wings3D Exported .lwo files, I might even use that for my modeler since it's free. It's seems strange though that it exports .mdl files (animation master) but not .max or .lwo files. I wonder why it would support a format like that when it's not very widely used. Anybody know why that would be? Just curious.

TyVole
11-24-2003, 02:22 PM
I think the .mdl support was a third-party plugin. I'm not sure why someone did it (perhap he/she was an A:M user who was sick of their modeler), but as I believe the .mdl format is text based, it was probably a lot easier to write than an .lwo converter.

I don't know if .lwo is a closed format, but I have noticed very few programs read it.

But wouldn't exporting .obj format be sufficient?

j3st3r
11-24-2003, 02:27 PM
Wings exports OBJ and LW reads OBJ. What else needed?

bloontz
11-24-2003, 02:28 PM
There is a plugin for wings that will export in .lwo 6 format. Poke around on the wings site and you should find it.

bloontz
11-24-2003, 02:42 PM
The Lightwave export plugin is part of this package-

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/scorpius/wings_plugins.htm

hrgiger
11-24-2003, 02:46 PM
yes, I guess you could use the .obj format also. I don't do a lot of cross platform importing/exporting so I wasn't sure if it would maintain the mesh as it was in the other program. I know occasionally I would try to import .dxf's into Animation Master and it was such a jumbled mess, it didn't even seem worth bothering with to clean up and use.

How do other programs deal with polygons that have more then 3 or 4 points? For instance I see that in a demonstation of mirai that some edges butt up against a 4 point poly, making it now a 5 pointer (or more in some cases), but yet it still seems legal to use subdivsion. Is it just because they support ngons?

j3st3r
11-24-2003, 03:22 PM
Sure, mirai, and it`s ancestors allowed to use ngon in the cage. I think, it was allowed back in the earliest version of nworld, or before?

wacom
11-24-2003, 04:59 PM
I hate to be the one to say this- and I'm not saying that Lightwave doesn't need these features, but aren't Houdini, mirai, and XSI a little out of the price range of this discussion? I'm not saying we shouldn't demand them...just trying to keep it real.

However...Wings3D is about as cheap as it gets and...well...

DaveW
11-24-2003, 06:29 PM
There are plenty of cheap/free apps that have edges and subd ngons, not just expensive apps like Houdini or XSI. LW has to catch up sometime. Many of the tools LW has now used to only be found in expensive apps, but eventually they trickle down to the cheaper apps. There was a time when fur or softbody dynamics and even bones were only found in software that cost as much as a house. LW should not stagnate or only add minor improvements just because the competition costs more money.

jin choung
11-24-2003, 09:25 PM
hey jester,

it's not that we're not reading your posts, it's just that you're not getting ours:

if catmull-clark is ALL that you're concerned with, lw achieved that with version 5.6.

catmull-clark only talks about the basic subdivision that turns a poly cage into the CVs of a bspline patch.

IT DOES NOT COVER:

edge weighting, uv mapping, hierarchical or any other advanced features.

and if all that modo is offering is catmull-clark : big whoop....

you can do that in virtually all apps NOW.

but look at C4D, it handles weighting of edges, verts and faces like you can't imagine. i disagree strongly that edge weighting is only useful in theory. it is VERTEX WEIGHTS that are pretty nearly useless.... edge weighting can allow you to sculpt in details like wrinkles without exploding your poly count.

look at maya's way of handling uv mapping of sds with its history. catmull clark does not touch upon this. also, i think that it is this HIERARCHICAL part that explicitly alias. as for the edge weighting and the SDS algorithm, i've read several of the alias docs that say specifically that they ARE PIXAR.

if you are willing to pay for a modo that does nothing for SDS except for lw 5.6 era stuff but with the support of ngons... go spend you $400.

but it is the other stuff that needs the attention and it is the other stuff that makes translation between one package to another difficult.

jin

p.s. another issue that we have not touched upon yet but will be very important for modo is how it handles uv mapping as it regards DISPLACEMENT MAPS. this is really gonna be the next big thing as it regards the use of higher order surfaces like nurbs and sds.

1. you model your cage
2. you finish it with super high detail like wrinkles and such
3. you get an app like ORB that generates a displacement map that encodes the differences between 1 and 2.

4. you use the displacement map on 1, to be applied AFTER SUBDIVISION, to maximize detail as well as have a low density mesh to weight and animate....

(the LOTR, at least in the first movie, such a technique was used on all the characters but on the NURBS surface)

again, if modo cannot find a way to export to everybody, all of the optimization steps and techniques i've mentioned must be done in the target app.... sounds like a waste of money to me then.

EyesClosed
11-24-2003, 11:32 PM
People are going to use Modo over Modeler because it'll be a much better modeling program. Why are so many using Wings 3D now? It's not because it has subdivision surfaces that can export to other programs or displacement mapping.

Those currently using Modeler will drop it the moment Modo is released, since it is clear that Newtek isn't developing Modeler anymore. Plus, they won't have to pay extra for something useless like Layout when they only want a modeling application.

Maybe you won't be using Modo, Jin, but many out their will be going to Modo. Those most will be the professional community, who clearly only use LightWave's still decent feature: it's modeling. :D

badllarma
11-24-2003, 11:48 PM
Originally posted by EyesClosed
People are going to use Modo over Modeler because it'll be a much better modeling program. Why are so many using Wings 3D now? It's not because it has subdivision surfaces that can export to other programs or displacement mapping.

Those currently using Modeler will drop it the moment Modo is released, since it is clear that Newtek isn't developing Modeler anymore.

:D the truth is no one uses modo for **** as yet because it's not a commercial product I don't use wings an none of the other Lightwavers I know use it I will not be "dropping modeler anywhere" IF OR WHEN modo is released the truth is EyesClosed unless your on the development team of Lightwave, on the developement team for modo and a ****ing mind reader your talking out of your arse :rolleyes:

Sorry Chuck but some one had to say it!!!!!!!

If lightwave is THAT bad **** off and don't use it. :mad:

badllarma
11-24-2003, 11:55 PM
Oh and Merry Christmas :D

hrgiger
11-25-2003, 12:42 AM
Try not to get too worked up badllarma, Eyesclosed(CIM) has clearly demonstrated that he doesn't know what he's talking about. He just likes to presume and incite. First he says that Newtek stated that 8 would be the last version before a rewrite (they didn't) and now he's saying most Lightwave users will drop modeler once Modo comes out (they won't). Then he also goes on to say that Newtek isn't developing modeler anymore (they are).

I would use Wings 3D in addition to Lightwave's modeler because I do like the edge tools, but it's only because right now, wings3d is free. While I do think Lightwave needs to implement edges in modeler, I don't necessarily think they're worth the $400 I'd pay for Modo to get them. If I'm going to spend $400 for more software, it's not going to be for something I already can do in Lightwave which is model.

Jabba
11-25-2003, 01:31 AM
Originally posted by hrgiger
If I'm going to spend $400 for more software, it's not going to be for something I already can do in Lightwave which is model.

The question is "why not to spend $400 for software that let you do things much faster" (at least it seems..).

If M*D* let me save my time in production and don't force me to learn new workflow because of its 'mimic' abilities, I will be the first who will force our staff to use it ;)

j3st3r
11-25-2003, 02:15 AM
Badlarma, you show up a very eyeclosed behaviour. Check out other forums as well. Many Lightwavers use Wings in addition to modeler. Mario Ucci (former Lightwaver) was wondering how Wings3d is smoothly working with LW. I remember one of the Siggraph videos, where a guy told, that the short they were making was animated and rendered in lightwave, and many models were built in a small and free program called Wings3d. Do not underestimate the power of wings, neither modo.

EyeCIM is showing up another bad attitude biased against LW. I think I`m on a midrange, with my attitude. I`m pretty sure, that if mirai fits into a maya based pipeline, or houdini based pipeline, both LW and modo, and even Wings3d would do.

SDS managing is a very subjective thing. I think using edgeweight is good, but I prefer to model out the details, even if they are sharp creases. That`s my preference.

It is not about to drop modeler or not. If there is a better solution why not to use it? Lightwave is really good, but it has weakness. I`m suffering with the lack of history, the half-solved UV mapping (I`m not speaking of the UV vs SDS problem, but the unweld-atlas problem). Currently LW fits the best to my need, and if those issues won`t be addressed by the future release, I won`t stop myself using modo, if it proves to be better.

I`m sure, that NT as a developer will value more the negative, but constructive critism, than the hallelujas from the fanboy.

Dodgy
11-25-2003, 03:07 AM
The problem is too much of the 'criticism' isn't constructive, it's just whining...

If you want a feature, put it in the feature request forum and get out of there, but don't expect it to make the next release... Everyone wants something, and they only have a certain number of people and a certain number of hours before people start going 'where's the latest version, why am I still waiting, I need this now...'

Nemoid
11-25-2003, 03:09 AM
Well, probably the arrival of Modo in the market will bring new interesting approaches to work, but I seriously hope that Lux will put inthe market other modules, too.

After all, with Lw,even with the current probs an lacks here and there, that I think Nt will fix in 8.x cycle, I have a full and complete package, from modelling to animation to rendering. for a cheap price, and with unlimited rendering nodes.

Silo, wich is a good modeler its 109$, Wings its free, and so, Modo have to be very, very good modeler, in some part with a new approach, to deserve a 400$ price (and its only a subpatch modeler).actually for that price I would like to see NURBS, also, and maybe other kinda modelling techniques, just to have the possibility to have different modelling techniques.

on the other hand, i'd be pleased to see a new app in the market coming out from Lw creators and with the same philosophy, but more modern. innovation is always welcome.

For now the situation is different.Lw[8] and Modo are not in the market yet so we can't judge them properly.

ghopper
11-25-2003, 04:23 AM
Originally posted by Dodgy
The problem is too much of the 'criticism' isn't constructive, it's just whining...

Exactly! Bottom line is that LW offers amazing value for money, especially with the current DFX+ bundle. That's why I rather stop whining, because if I need all these "high-end" features I could just spend some more money and buy those packages that offer these features.

But I haven't got the money to buy XSI, Maya, MAX or even C4D. I rather wait for NT to implement these features, because I know it's going to happen, since it's only in NT's interest to stay competitive.

Also, if you have a look at what other people achieve with LW ( Area51, Menithings, Strike, etc ) it just shows what's possible with LW with a bit more effort put in.

private
11-25-2003, 05:12 AM
Where are people getting $400 for Modo? Where was that information posted? In addition, where is there information about a release date? I haven't seen any.

I would really be happy if edges are part of the 8.X life cycle. That's why I asked. Maybe if Chuck is done planting trees, he might remember the original question! :p :confused:

TyVole
11-25-2003, 05:41 AM
Some magazine stated that Modo (or Nexus or whatever they end up calling it) would cost about $400 for LW users -- I think $800 for everyone else, but I'm not sure.

Of course, I don't believe L******y confirmed this.

The latest I heard was that the release date was moved to 1Q 04. But this could be pure rumor.

private
11-25-2003, 05:59 AM
What magazine? What page?

Seems like rumour after rumour...if we haven't had enough over the whole saga a while back, before contracts were in place and then weren't. Even though the upgrade price jumped a little for LW, it is still go value, edges or no edges. I'm optimistic, yet realistic. That is why I posed the original question.

colkai
11-25-2003, 06:21 AM
Originally posted by cresshead
so CIM, tell me that you now own newtek and run the show from atop a big hill and have decreed that edges will never come to any future lightwave...

Guys, Guys, leave CIM alone, if he didn't spend all his time whining about LW, he would have no purpose in Life. :D

colkai
11-25-2003, 06:40 AM
Originally posted by Chuck
Planting Columnar Italian Cypress trees in his new front yard and sunburning the heck out of his bald old head. :)

Ya never heard of a hat there Chuck? - Or is it one of those wooly ones knitted by relatives? You know, the 'Oh lovely - JUST what I need!" ;)

Dang - out in the sun, S'alright ofr some folks, (he says from a cold wet Manchester UK) :p


HrGiger


Ahh, another day in the Newtek forums...

ROFL - Good one son, good one. Worse thing is - it's sooo true :D

SLAYER
11-25-2003, 08:16 AM
Originally posted by private
What magazine? What page?

Seems like rumour after rumour...if we haven't had enough over the whole saga a while back, before contracts were in place and then weren't. Even though the upgrade price jumped a little for LW, it is still go value, edges or no edges. I'm optimistic, yet realistic. That is why I posed the original question.

It is true. I have the magazine somewher. It was either 3D World or Digit a few months back.

$700 or $800 to purchase, but around $400 for LW owners.

I'll try to find it later after work.

hrgiger
11-25-2003, 08:59 AM
Originally posted by SLAYER
It is true. I have the magazine somewher. It was either 3D World or Digit a few months back.

$700 or $800 to purchase, but around $400 for LW owners.

I'll try to find it later after work.

It's true Private. I read the article as well, there is no rumor about it.

badllarma
11-25-2003, 09:17 AM
Originally posted by j3st3r
Badlarma, you show up a very eyeclosed behaviour. Check out other forums as well. Many Lightwavers use Wings in addition to modeler.

I actually said the people I know don't use it (this actually could be incorrect, I should have said have never discussed using it, that is if they do use it ) I never said NO ONE uses it, that would be getting into the same line of mind reading as EyesClosed.

Dodgy
"The problem is too much of the 'criticism' isn't constructive, it's just whining... "

That was mainly my point with the rant
If I was in the Newtek team working my arse off getting a product ready for release and all I heard (or read) every day was all the bitching on the forum it would be getting me really down at present. I would personally be thinking why bother........ What ever I do they will be whinning about it.
Last week edges, week before rendering give it a rest guys and gals wait for 8 (five weeks now) :D then if need be make the CONSTRUCTIVE comments, :rolleyes:

badllarma
11-25-2003, 09:19 AM
Oh and the mag was 3DWorld with the $400.00 quote for Lightwave users for Modo.

cresshead
11-25-2003, 09:43 AM
i think that people are getting a little "jittery" with the immenent release of lightwave 8 and are hoping and shouting about what they demand that lightwave 8 should really have and if it doesn't they'll be off to silo, modo, wings 3d and maya 9 [9??]

some maybe are thingking that that really should have put a feature request in ages ago but couldn't be bothered are now at this time demanding that all manner of things should be in lightwave 8 and if they aren't well they'll ditch it and start to learn another program [learning curves...yuk!]

whatever lightwave 8.0 turns out to be i'm sure that there will be some great surprises and also so dissapointments in what made the release and what didn't.

overall lightwave look's to have a bright [sorry about the pun!] future and with the new development team i'm looking forward to future enhancements as well.

we're in a wait n see section and some are getting nervous!

steve g:rolleyes:

Elmar Moelzer
11-25-2003, 10:10 AM
since it is clear that Newtek isn't developing Modeler anymore

Eyesclosed, I dont know where you get your information from, but I am happy to tell you that it is absolutely wrong!
Would really like to know who is spreading such a big pile of bull****! Are you willing to share your sources with me?
CU
Elmar

Chuck
11-25-2003, 10:43 AM
Originally posted by private
Where are people getting $400 for Modo? Where was that information posted? In addition, where is there information about a release date? I haven't seen any.

I would really be happy if edges are part of the 8.X life cycle. That's why I asked. Maybe if Chuck is done planting trees, he might remember the original question! :p :confused:

I remembered the original question just fine the first time I replied, but it isn't the case that you can expect to ask questions about specifics not covered in advance information for the public and that the marketing and development team will choose to disclose further information. I do suspect we'll be providing more details soon, but not just yet.

Chuck
11-25-2003, 10:48 AM
Originally posted by colkai
Ya never heard of a hat there Chuck? - Or is it one of those wooly ones knitted by relatives? You know, the 'Oh lovely - JUST what I need!" ;)

Dang - out in the sun, S'alright ofr some folks, (he says from a cold wet Manchester UK) :p

After seven years in Texas you'd think I'd have figured out that sunburn is a year 'round issue, but this Kansas kid still forgets that November ain't winter quite the same way here as it is up north... ;)

private
11-25-2003, 05:43 PM
Originally posted by Chuck
I remembered the original question just fine the first time I replied, but it isn't the case that you can expect to ask questions about specifics not covered in advance information for the public and that the marketing and development team will choose to disclose further information. I do suspect we'll be providing more details soon, but not just yet.

Fair enough.

-------------------
About the other software package, $400 for LW users and double for others? Then they will be releasing an Animation Module and a Renderer...that's $1200 for existing Lightwave users. Then upgrades will run almost triple to Lightwave, without established free point upgrades that Newtek, the makers of Lightwave, offer. Now I'm speculating!:rolleyes: :confused:

Nemoid
11-26-2003, 01:34 AM
I'd say lets stop tp speculate here.I know I am the first that get into speculating very easily, but sometimes i'm wondering if I am offending Nt and Lw developers.
hope Lux will open a forum someday, so that we can bash them there!! :D

Now, lets keep waiting for [8] wich, at least, is coming in the market soon, and its a complete package.

meshmaster
11-26-2003, 01:34 PM
cause as many crashes in a good modelling program like Lightwave as it does in a mediocre program like trueSpace, I hope Newtek NEVER puts edges in to Lightwave... Working with individual points instead of edges is a much better way to work, and seems to be one of the things that makes Lightwave so much more stable than ts, or other freebie/low cost modellers out there that use edges.... since it makes it harder to divide by zero...

Adrian Lopez
11-26-2003, 02:18 PM
Edges cause crashes? Lightwave is more stable than Truespace because it doesn't have edges? :p. Puh-leese :rolleyes:. Lightwave's stability is most likely due to better coding practices, and it certainly isn't due to the lack of edges.

If you think it's better to work with points alone than with points and edges you could easily avoid pressing the still hypothetical "Edges" button at the bottom of Lightwave X.

Nemoid
11-26-2003, 02:36 PM
When I want to make my day very bad and so I go and try to model in Maya, I have edges. but i don't like too much how i must select them (also because i don't like Maya's selections system).for this reason I had to download the drag select plug!!

however, I think edges are good for the possibility to crease them, partially or full, for hard edges without a great amount of polys. and this is very very good thing I'd like to see in Lw too:)

finally, I like the possibility to remove some of them and rework an area.

j3st3r
11-26-2003, 02:46 PM
Some programs store polygonal meshes in a so called Winged Edge structure. That is when the mesh is not stored by a pointlist, then a facelist, but the edges are stored. In those program there is no 2 point polys. Advantage: massivly faster mesh operations. Mirai uses this data structure. As far as I know, the winged edge structure is named by the fact, that for one edge 2 polygons can be attached. This is why neither mirai or Wings cannot handle "hollow" objects.

Anyway, edges are really good, especially in Wings tweak mode (Lightwave smarter Drag tool), where you can drag points, edges and polygons.

sailor
11-26-2003, 05:42 PM
Nemoid i dont know what the drag plug makes in Maya but notice that u can make ur tranlate tool act like a drag tool in the preferences...instead of select then move u can directly drag a point/edge/face changing this in the prefs...

jin choung
11-26-2003, 07:12 PM
yah,

ts would be a bad comparison. why not compare to every other app? because every other app has edges and they don't crash.

as for maya's implementation of weights... i actually think it's rather dumba$$.... why not give the crease value everything from 0.0 - 1.0 fp values? why just 3 discrete? i have a feeling it's because pixar wouldn't let them use the 'unlimited' version of their creasing algorithm.

in any case, if lw ever gets subdiv creasing, we should definitely do better than maya.

jin

Nemoid
11-27-2003, 02:19 PM
No, Sailor, its simply a tool to select multiple elements dragging the mouse over them just like in Lw. similar to paint selection tool in Maya, if you want. I don't like so much the rectangular selection in Maya, because I don't reach to select exactly what i want with it.especially in perspective view. I use lasso tool, and use also the ortho views , with rectangular this time,or the drag selection,

Now that I remember maybe its called Draw selection instead than drag ??!!:D my damn crap english often betrays me.

I know the drag thing in preference to directly drag faces and other elements. its one the first things i checked to improve damn workflow!!:D

loganarts
01-27-2004, 05:56 AM
I really dont think that its a matter of personal oppinion anymore...
Any software MUST have edges.
Lightwave is the only one who doesnt.
Supporting nsided polys as well. Lightwave is the only one.

I dont have too much pleasure when im modellin in lightwave because i just cant have TAB feedback when i have nsided polys...... thats terrible... any artist who likes to build a topology using edges for it would hate lightwave because u just cant stop an edge anywhere and go back to it later on....

Adding detail in lightwave, i mean, adding huge ammount of detail in a character in lightwave is a pain and maybe thats the main reason we dont see too many high detailed character done in lightwave. I am not sayin its impossible of course. im just saying that edges and nsided polys are the ideal way of doing it.
It is faster and it is more straightforward.

i just cant think of a reason for not having edges and Nsided,... at least as an option... if it causes problems to lightwave structure, then lightwave structure is the problem to be solved, not edges and nsided preview.

I dont hold much hope of having it soon... i mean, its lightwave 8 there and i dont see any of this pretty basic features on it so maybe lw 9 or something.

My workflow is still model in wings(the best modeler IMHO) and then spend some painfull time fixing nsided in LW......

Please, all of you that takes software too seriously, dont hate me.

i didnt see a point for edges when i was a lightwaver, but then i moved to wings and xsi and now i know its importance.

my 2 pence


loggie

j3st3r
01-27-2004, 06:22 AM
Edges but at least nsided poly support is a must in LW. It makes a big disadvantage to LW. Anyway, I think I can model faster and more efficient in LW than any other modelling program. But it`s true that when I do something in Maya or Wings with edges or ngons I really miss them from LW.

Anyway DOOM3 high res characters are great example of modelling with LW.

Nemoid
01-27-2004, 06:35 AM
From the little i know of Lw structure, Modeler handles one kinda element: points.

points are the base element of every mesh,in Lw, and of every poligon.
Then, the sub patch algorythm can handle poligons formed by 3 or 4 points .

Now, concerning the sub patch algorithm, i think its not difficult to implement the smoothing of n sided polis, in fact i had one friend wich scripted a plugin for this and it worked quite well.

Concerning edges, they have instead to be part of Lw structore of what items it handles. for this reason, they seem to me more difficult ( but not impossible) to implement.

Its obvious that with the possibility of smoothing n sided, and manipulating edges will give to modelling more power.

1)small parts of the model wich doesn't deform will be modeled with less poligons because you can use n sided.

2) the fact itself u can use n sided allows you to model always directly in subpatch with them, then work with edges to cut, remove, add them to make a quad mesh if you want or need

3) As I saw in Stahlberg recent researchs, a model formed with n sided, not taking into real account polyflow works really well in M..a for animation (iduuno the same about how a similar model would work in Lw though)

4) edges will bring with them the possibility to full or partial crease them, with the result of a lighter model with the same result. where now you use several polys along edges you will use full crease.

These are the main reasons to implement such things in the near future.


P.S. I don't really think that in Lw you see less detailed models just because they've to be done in quads or quads/tris. i saw alot of well made and detailed characters and models especially in CGtalk. For example the excellent Minotaure of a recent post. Some result could be achieved with less polys here and there using n sided, though.

Ade
01-27-2004, 06:43 AM
3ds is the biggest code mess out and somehow they got true edge support.

I think Newtek should do a deal with lux and swap some technologies, LW getstheir edge support, mobo gets whatever.

Saves programming time and makes everyone happy.

Elmar Moelzer
01-27-2004, 07:18 AM
Ade, I dont think that this would be necessary...
The new dev- team is good enough to do that themselves...
CU
Elmar

CB_3D
01-27-2004, 08:48 AM
Originally posted by Nemoid
a model formed with n sided, not taking into real account polyflow works really well in M..a for animation (iduuno the same about how a similar model would work in Lw though)


Try it out with Metamate from the old 5.6 days. From my experience 5-sided polys subdivide and deform very well.

Ade
01-27-2004, 08:53 AM
Originally posted by Elmar Moelzer
Ade, I dont think that this would be necessary...
The new dev- team is good enough to do that themselves...
CU
Elmar

Was an idea to save on R&D time..
A way to speed up production.

PPL are complaining Lightwave has fallen too far behind in animation and rendering.
if this is true how did this happen?

Nemoid
01-27-2004, 09:04 AM
Thanx CB_3D I will try this one!Never heard this name!!

I use Lw since 7, so surely I miss ALOT of infos about tools like this.
Incidentally, if I understood well, a thing like metaform plus will return in [8] at our disposal. (maybe i'm totally wrong on this one)

I heard some friend talking about it, but i dunno how it worked and in what it was different from current 7.5 smoothing pressing tab.

oh,and i agree with Elmar. Nt new dev team is working very hard :) and surely knows all things related to n sided and edges too. They don't need aid to code Lw.
I only listed all the advantages these implementations will bring in Lw (especially the possibility to model always directly in subpatch).

The reason its simple.

I think we will see those tools soon!!:D

Gabe
01-27-2004, 10:45 AM
I've only ever modeled in Lightwave but I don't think I understand the importance of edges. To me, it seems like edges should be something you model. In reality edges aren't an entity in themselfs but just a meeting point of surfaces. I find it easy and logical to just model edges Lightwave. Having edges as a seperate entity seems artificial to me. But... like I said, I've never used any other 3d package so I'm sure there are advantages I'm just not seeing.

As for N sided subpatches... I used to want them REALLY REALLY bad. Then I learned to model properly. Now, although they'd be occationally useful, I really doubt I'd use them much even if I had the option. If they do add them, I'd definately only use a maximum of 5 points per patch.

HowardM
01-27-2004, 10:50 AM
Gabe! what up!?

Youve never watched demos or played with XSI or Maya?
Youll understand once you see edges at work.
Havent you ever wanted to click on an edge between 2 points (like its a polygon) and move it around?
Watch the demos!

Exper
01-27-2004, 10:58 AM
NT dev team is blazing... LW [8] is not enough... they should call it LW [rebirth]!

About Edges... again I cannot resist...
many of us know Edges from the ancient Amiga times: Imagine and maybe Real3D.

Hoping NT will follow in LW[rebirth.5]! :D

Bye.

Gabe
01-27-2004, 11:06 AM
Youve never watched demos or played with XSI or Maya?
Youll understand once you see edges at work.
hehe... I have all the demos... but haven't gotten around to really trying any of it. I get tired when thinking about learning all the 3D packages. Though, I guess I really should learn Maya.



Havent you ever wanted to click on an edge between 2 points (like its a polygon) and move it around?
You're kidding right!?! I'd just select the two points and move them around. There's got to be more to it than that.

Like I said, there's probably something I'm missing but right now I don't see it.

jin choung
01-27-2004, 11:10 AM
hey guys,

EVERYTHING BUT VERTS is artificial!

the fact that we can select POLYS is artificial! because what are polys but a group of verts?

and yet, it makes sense to have them and be able to manipulate them and apply different tools to them. and if we get edges, we would also be able to manipulate them as robustly as anything else so think about the ability to reliably bevel and extrude edges and such.

also, it's an issue of STANDARDS. if every other app has it, it just makes sense to do likewise for the sake of ease of use in mixed environments.

my hope is that they won't break file format compatibility when implementing it.

jin

Nemoid
01-27-2004, 01:55 PM
Gabe, there's no prob to model with quads
and eventually tris as we always do currently in Lw.

the main advantages wich edges have are with
full creasing them, e.g. getting hard edges in your meshes
Without adding more geometry, and edge weighting, that
gives you different results than current point weighting
we have in Lw.

Also, when i saw Stahlberg tests of organic shapes with n sided for animation, i thought it was quite a madness, wich is not.

but i still enjoy right now modelling in lw7.5 without edges
and n sided, though.

finally, from a general POV, think to a Max or other app user wich comes to Lw.
he's so used to edges manipulation and approach to modelling that probably will see the lack of them as a strong weakness of the program (that is only partially true, but try to make him understand)

Yog
01-27-2004, 03:38 PM
Originally posted by Gabe

You're kidding right!?! I'd just select the two points and move them around. There's got to be more to it than that.

Like I said, there's probably something I'm missing but right now I don't see it.

There are many reasons to want edges, Sub-D creasing, extending, sketching, etc.
But to use the current example of moving and tweeking, think of the drag tool compared to selecting and moving. If you want to move two points you have to first select them, pick the move tool then transform them. If on the other hand edges were an element type you could just use the drag tool and then start dragging around first one edge then another with no prior selecting. Not a big time saver, but like most small time savings, they add up.

If you were to take this a step further, you could cut in a row of edges and then because edges were a recognised entity you could then slide them along the perpandicular edges, either by a fixed amount or by a percentage amount (like the way Bandsaw calulates distance). This is a surprisingly useful feature I use a lot in other software.

hrgiger
01-27-2004, 06:05 PM
Gabe,

This is one of the best reason I can think of to want edges:

http://maxon.net/pages/products/c4d/movie_modeling.html

And before the arguments ensue and Jin has to to loco on your *** for replying, you CANNOT do this with Lightwave's point weighting.


I used to think that edges would be one of the best additions to modeler and while I still think they would be great, I think I would rather have n-gon support. I think that's where it's at.

jin choung
01-27-2004, 06:48 PM
ah thank you hr,

if i have to explain one more time why edge weighting is different...

(shakes fist in air)

jin

hrgiger
01-27-2004, 08:07 PM
Sure thing....:)

I think we need a new term around here....

Don't make me go Jin on your a$s....

Gabe
01-27-2004, 08:51 PM
And before the arguments ensue and Jin has to to loco on your *** for replying, you CANNOT do this with Lightwave's point weighting.

Hehe... yes, I've seen that video and yes I understand that it's different than Lightwave's point weighting... but, it's still something that can be achieved pretty easily in LW by adding a few more slices where needed. Neat feature for sure, but I hardly think it's a do or die item. And actually, I can't really figure out why Lightwave would need proper edges to achieve similar edge weighting tools. I bet it could be done currently without too much fuss. But I'm no programmer so who knows?

Like I said though, I'm not saying that edges are a waste of time or that LW shouldn't get them... it's just that as a modeler I honestly don't mind not having them and so far I haven't seen anything that convinces me Lightwave must have them NOW!!! But it is a strong opinion that many have so it may be something I have to try for myself before I see what the big deal is.

Dodgy
01-28-2004, 03:38 AM
I'm kinda with Gabe here. I used to think edges were important when I went from Imagine to LW, but now the ONLY reason I can see for them really is edge weighting. And that's only as a mesh optimisation. Using Fi's wrinkle you can get just the same effect :) Just more geometry.

jin choung
01-28-2004, 04:08 AM
actually,

another crucial, CRUCIAL reason to have it so that the edge entities can be tagged as HARD/SOFT as it pertains to phong smoothing.

this is essential for games people.

yes yes, even direct x and open gl actively UNWELDS those edges to create a sharp edge in runtime but keeping unwelded verts in a completed production asset makes editing later on a chore... that is, you can't just merge everything, check the stats and export. you have to go back and unweld again.

this really is an attribute that has to be removed from SURFACES. it doesn't rightly belong there.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

as far as it goes, what you guys are saying is right... even with edge weighting for SDS, you get the advantage of not creating needless geometry but you LOSE the ability to tell everything about your mesh by just looking at it. especially if you have weighted edges all over the place. (and even with a weight shade view, it may become quite tedious in trying to determine what exact shade of red that edge is currently tagged). there are indeed trade offs.

and for modeling operations, i've certainly done without edges for the duration of my experience with lw and it certainly hasn't harmed me.

so yah, as far as it goes, you guys are right.

but i think the essential point is that in this day and age, we should just have it for the sake of people who might come to use lw from other apps. we shouldn't force people to work a certain way. as far as possible, the app should be adaptable to a person's workflow.

and especially since everybody else does indeed consider the PRIME SELECTABLE/MANIPULATABLE ENTITIES as VERT, EDGE, POLY, UV - we should just get in line. 3d apps are mature enough now that everyone should start thinking in terms of STANDARDS and just CONFORMING (yes, dreaded word but in this case absolutely lovely).

after all, if you're gonna make a 2d image editor, most people don't try to make it as radically different from photoshop as possible!

and though there is not a single app in the 3d world (arguably) that holds the same prominence that photoshop does in 2d, there has come to exist a variety of standards and conventions that most most multi-app artists have come to accept.

and these are the conventions that ALL app makers and not just newtek should strive to adopt as well.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

and finally, it seems like it would be a pretty EASY thing to do! the only thing that i can think that is validly holding up the process is that it will break the lwo2 file format. if it does do that, that's gonna be a major pain in the *** for everyone who uses lw in conjunction with 3rd party apps until EVEYRBODY comes up to speed with the new format.

and if it's that big a deal, then i would be content in holding off on a file format rewrite until lw does an xsi and does a complete ground up re-architecture, re-think, total tear down rewrite.

but me thinks that's not in the cards for now.

jin

Exper
01-28-2004, 04:09 AM
Lighter geometry is always useful, IMHO!

Bye.

CB_3D
01-28-2004, 05:34 AM
Originally posted by Dodgy
And that's only as a mesh optimisation. Using Fi's wrinkle you can get just the same effect :) Just more geometry.

Well, the "just more geometry" is a constant problem for me and for every other 3d artist. And the cinema edge movie shows quite clearly that thereŽs more to it than just optimization.

Edges clearly rock.

hrgiger
01-28-2004, 05:41 AM
I think Edges are essential from a competetive standpoint. I would hate to see Lightwave eventually as the "app without edges".
It may not seem necessary to have edges at first but the cost in geometry savings would be great. Ask Lewis who is probably one of the best car modelers I've seen how much it would help him in modeling cars. It would prevent us from having to bandsaw the crap out of our models to create sharp edges on our models. Don't think of it as a feature we can't live without. Think of it as faster rendering and faster interace interaction with lower geometry numbers.
The other thing I might add is that eges are a JOY to work with. If you haven't tried Wings 3D, I reccomend it. It's a free download, see how nice it is to model with edges. Lightwave 8 has Pseudo edges since we are selecting points and not true edges. I'm glad we have this at least but I'll be hoping for true edges eventually.

Tonton1
01-28-2004, 10:26 AM
A simple question : did Cinema 4D go through a complete rewrite to gain edge support ?

jin choung
01-28-2004, 11:09 AM
actually,

didn't they always have them? most apps do from the gitgo... it's just that lw's legacy goes back pretty far before there could be a reasonable argument for 'standards'.

i think the only new functionality is the ability to weight them for SDS.

jin

bloontz
01-28-2004, 11:38 AM
I don't think C4D got edges until version 8. At least my copy of C4D 6 CE doesn't have them.

Exper
01-28-2004, 11:38 AM
Originally posted by hrgiger
If you haven't tried Wings 3D, I reccomend it. It's a free download, see how nice it is to model with edges.For everyone interested in Wings 3D...
there is an LWO exporter here:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/scorpius/wings_plugins.htm

Bye.

Gabe
01-28-2004, 03:31 PM
hehe... definately a topic of strong opinions. Certainly, I think edges would be a good tool. Somehow I don't trust the whole edge weighting thing though... don't know why. I like to see what's going on in my mesh... but it's something I'd probably have to use for a while to trust and appreciate. Regardless, I bet it'll be a LW 9 item. I still suspect an edge weighting plug could be done now since there is already vertex weighting.

As for adding it to be competitive.... I think Newtek has rightfully focused on Layout this time around to be more competitive. Layout has been woefully behind for a while now. I can wait another version for edges if Layout kick *** in version 8.

Dodgy
01-28-2004, 05:48 PM
Originally posted by Gabe

As for adding it to be competitive.... I think Newtek has rightfully focused on Layout this time around to be more competitive. Layout has been woefully behind for a while now. I can wait another version for edges if Layout kick *** in version 8.

I'm thinking edges would be quite big to add, and while I'm not against them, I think things like the renderer should be worked on first, get that baby up on top again :)