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Oldcode
05-12-2014, 07:38 PM
Hi Everybody,

I've been going over some tutorials about how to make dynamic hair for some characters I want to animate in Lightwave. The problem is I seem to really stink at it.

Is there anybody here who knows how to do good hair for characters that I could hire?

This is one example of the kind of results I’m looking for.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0erVO...82E68C16C8F575

It tried following this tutorial…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAIkG...82E68C16C8F575

The results are too embarrassing to show.

If you think you can do it and want to make a little money, please let me know.

Cheers!

geo_n
05-12-2014, 08:37 PM
Have you tried sasquatch? Its more stable and predictable. Its worth a try.

erikals
05-12-2014, 11:16 PM
broken link... ? :]

Greenlaw
05-13-2014, 01:36 AM
@erikals, if you enter the string of 14 digits at the end of the link in YT's search, it points to the movie. After I tried that, I realized it pointed to my first FiberFX test from a couple of years ago. :p

@OldCode, I can't help with creating hair for you but I can try to answer questions you may have about the workflow. The video you linked to was exercise I did back in my Rhythm & Hues days to see if FiberFX could be used in a 'Devil May Cry' theatrical trailer. (I wound up using FiberFX for eight characters, including the Dante, the banker, and the twins.) That 'walkthrough' video is pretty old now (it was done in LightWave 10.x) but the concepts shown are mostly still valid. FiberFX was much improved for 11.5 and I highly recommend using that version or older, but not the current 11.6.3 which has a problem with rendering specular highlights for animation. (Sorry, I'm not sure exactly when FiberFX broke for animation, but I know FiberFX 11.5.1 worked very well.)

If you're looking to style hair guides, the new Edit Guides tools works fairly well, especially for short hair and animal fur. It's a bit trickier to use for long hair though, so expect to practice a lot. During DmC, I mostly relied on the Rail Cloning method (http://worley.com/Tutorials/StuTut/index.htm) explained in a tutorial the Worley Labs website. It's a bit of work but you can create very specific styles using this method.

After I was done that production, I learned to use ZBrush FiberMesh and used this method to create FiberFX guides for the characters in our Brudders music video (https://vimeo.com/68543424) (currently in production.) ZBrush FiberMesh takes quite a bit of practice too though--I recommend studying the Creating Long Hair with FiberMesh course over at Digital Tutors. If you decide to got with FiberMesh, you'll probably want to read the Brudders 2 thread (http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?133274-The-Brudders-2-Production-Log-%28Well-sort-of-%29) for details on how to transfer UV, weight, and morph maps from your character mesh to the guides. (If you use Edit Guides in Layout, you can skip this step--the guides should automatically inherit properties from the mesh.)

Sometimes I might even use the old FiberFX Modeler in Modeler--it's still a reliable tool for short hair styles. But the recently improved Edit Guides is probably better for more situations now.

Creating a nice hairstyle takes a bit of skill to do successfully. With any of the tools and techniques described above, expect to spend a lot of time practicing. I suggest finding an interesting hairstyle in a web search and trying to replicate it. If the hair style you want to create is complicated, you may find it easier to create the style in parts and then assemble it Layout or Modeler.

Hope this helps.

G.

Greenlaw
05-13-2014, 10:40 AM
I used to use Sasquatch for all hair and fur effects. For the longest time, it was the best way to render fur and hair in LightWave. The issue now is that, compared to FiberFX, Sasquatch gives you far fewer lighting and shadow options. Also, Sasquatch requires rendering with Classic Camera for proper AA, and I left Classic Camera behind a long time ago. Sasquatch also doesn't support motion vectors like FiberFX, which is a huge deal if you prefer to apply your motion blur in composting (which is SOP at many production houses.)

That said, there are a couple of nice things about Sasquatch that I miss, notably the auto combing feature and the built-in wind dynamics.

G.

Oldcode
05-13-2014, 07:13 PM
Thanks for the info Greenlaw. I'll give everything a look see and maybe give it another go. Just wish there was a decent step by step tutorial for those who've never done this. I can do the hair in Poser Pro, but it does not come over when you import the scene into Lightwave.

prometheus
05-13-2014, 11:21 PM
Thanks for the info Greenlaw. I'll give everything a look see and maybe give it another go. Just wish there was a decent step by step tutorial for those who've never done this. I can do the hair in Poser Pro, but it does not come over when you import the scene into Lightwave.

maybe garibaldi hair for daz studio would be better, not sure but if it can export that out through fbx and get the hairguides from that, it would be nice, the styling tools of garibaldi looks really nice...downside, it cost extra:)

I might solve this later when I get used to bullet dynamics and the collisions from these hairguides, I first tried these with a subdiv patch on this torso, but lightwave just kept crashing with the subdiv patch, so I had to keep the mesh lowres, which
the hair was built on with fiberfx in modeler, then use a higher mesh for the body parented just for the looks.
dynamics with bullet the way lino showcased on his deforming bodies tute on siggraph at the end of the video, though I need to take a look at the settings for proper collision with the torso, in this little short clip they just runs through the mesh.



Michael

Greenlaw
05-14-2014, 08:48 AM
...I first tried these with a subdiv patch on this torso, but lightwave just kept crashing with the subdiv patch, so I had to keep the mesh lowres...

Just wondering, are you using Deformable meshes for collision? If possible, don't bother--it's way too slow for production. Just use low-res proxies parented to bones. It's what's typically done with many systems. Generally, artist use capsule and squashed sphere primitives to approximate the volume of the body parts. Proxies for collision when animating deformable cloth and hair is a whole lot faster process and most of the time it's just as accurate. I use this method to process many thousands of long hair guides in Bullet, and it only takes a few minutes. Here's an early 'Bullet Hair' test from over a year ago: Sister Hair Test (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-kQRSsaCpg&list=UUxrvCvVImswWPbS9WgtTNqA). You can see how it works with proxies in the middle of this video: Sister Motion Test (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jASC8IOsIqY&list=UUxrvCvVImswWPbS9WgtTNqA). And this is how it's being used in this excerpt from our short film (https://vimeo.com/68543424) (currently in production.)

Of course this method doesn't help if the collision mesh must be driven by MDD and not bones--in which case, cross your fingers and take a long walk after clicking 'Calculate'. I really do hope LW3DG can speed up deformable collision for Bullet in the next version. This issue tripped me up on a couple of jobs this past year and I wound 'dumbing down' the physics to get shots done in a timely manner.

G.

prometheus
05-14-2014, 09:04 AM
Just wondering, are you using Deformable meshes for collision? If possible, don't bother--it's way too slow for production. Just use low-res proxies parented to bones. It's what's typically done with many systems. Generally, artist use capsule and squashed sphere primitives to approximate the volume of the body parts. Proxies for collision when animating deformable cloth and hair is a whole lot faster process and most of the time it's just as accurate. I use this method to process many thousands of long hair guides in Bullet, and it only takes a few minutes. Here's an early 'Bullet Hair' test from over a year ago: Sister Hair Test (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-kQRSsaCpg&list=UUxrvCvVImswWPbS9WgtTNqA). You can see how it works with proxies in the middle of this video: Sister Motion Test (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jASC8IOsIqY&list=UUxrvCvVImswWPbS9WgtTNqA). And this is how it's being used in this excerpt from our short film (https://vimeo.com/68543424) (currently in production.)



Of course this method doesn't help if the collision mesh must be driven by MDD and not bones--in which case, cross your fingers and take a long walk after clicking 'Calculate'. I really do hope LW3DG can speed up deformable collision for Bullet in the next version. This issue tripped me up on a couple of jobs this past year and I wound 'dumbing down' the physics to get shots done in a timely manner.

G.

dmn...I wish I could get the mail response fixed somehow, itīs tedious now to check which threads getīs updated, not since the first of april has that worked.
and for the hair, well ...yes, deforming body, same approach as lino did in the sinefx presentation, at the later stage of the video..around 22.52 and further on in the video.
but I used a low poly mesh on that sample I posted, and a higher mesh just for the looks but not included as deforming body, the part that has the scalp and hair is almost the same, but a lower mesh and active as deforming body, ..but I really didnīt get in to check the collisions properly just didnīt follow it through..will revisit later.

Oops...the lino demonstration...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAJzZ00La6Q check 22.52 and forward.

Greenlaw
05-14-2014, 09:42 AM
Just looked at the video. That's essentially the first steps for setting up deforming fibers. You'll notice that he's not using collision in the demo--he kept the guides fairly rigid to avoid penetrating the sphere. He could easily have made the sphere a collision object and it would only slow down a little--Bullet is pretty fast at with rigid and IK collision.

But if the sphere was a part of a deforming body (like head, neck and shoulders,) the calculation speed would drop to a crawl. This is what my comments above is about, how to deal with the next step after you set up the basic hair dynamics. You generally want to avoid using deformable mode for collision objects when working with hair or cloth in Bullet.

G.

hrgiger
05-14-2014, 10:45 PM
I used to use Sasquatch for all hair and fur effects. For the longest time, it was the best way to render fur and hair in LightWave. The issue now is that, compared to FiberFX, Sasquatch gives you far fewer lighting and shadow options. Also, Sasquatch requires rendering with Classic Camera for proper AA, and I left Classic Camera behind a long time ago. Sasquatch also doesn't support motion vectors like FiberFX, which is a huge deal if you prefer to apply your motion blur in composting (which is SOP at many production houses.)



True about the Sasquatch Limitations. It still looked more like hair fibers then Fiberfx and was a lot easier to obtain predictable results and had nice default settings as well. Its a shame that its not being developed any longer. But not as much of a shame that you only have one choice for hair in LightWave.

sami
05-17-2014, 06:53 AM
Just wondering, are you using Deformable meshes for collision? If possible, don't bother--it's way too slow for production. Just use low-res proxies parented to bones. It's what's typically done with many systems. Generally, artist use capsule and squashed sphere primitives to approximate the volume of the body parts. Proxies for collision when animating deformable cloth and hair is a whole lot faster process and most of the time it's just as accurate. I use this method to process many thousands of long hair guides in Bullet, and it only takes a few minutes. Here's an early 'Bullet Hair' test from over a year ago: Sister Hair Test (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-kQRSsaCpg&list=UUxrvCvVImswWPbS9WgtTNqA). You can see how it works with proxies in the middle of this video: Sister Motion Test (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jASC8IOsIqY&list=UUxrvCvVImswWPbS9WgtTNqA). And this is how it's being used in this excerpt from our short film (https://vimeo.com/68543424) (currently in production.)

Of course this method doesn't help if the collision mesh must be driven by MDD and not bones--in which case, cross your fingers and take a long walk after clicking 'Calculate'. I really do hope LW3DG can speed up deformable collision for Bullet in the next version. This issue tripped me up on a couple of jobs this past year and I wound 'dumbing down' the physics to get shots done in a timely manner.

G.

Hey Greenlaw (and sorry if this is digressing from/hijacking this thread), but looking at your cool sister test video which works great btw, I finally realized what it is I hate about the dynamics of most rendered 3D hair systems (even TinTin which I watched again the other night) - despite looking visually good, and having nice physics, many of them feel like the hair is "frictionless" - like outer hair on the surface of a thick head of hair moves at the same "slide-y" fast as inner hair- I would expect the weight and friction of hair on top of hair to make both types of strands move differently - but I have yet to see an animated type who's realism truly blows me away. Do you know what I mean? Can you suggest how to avoid that feel? Do you have any video links to any complex styles that really really look truly realistic with their dynamics? Thx! :)

Greenlaw
05-17-2014, 09:37 AM
I know what you mean, but what you're describing would require self collision for all the fibers which would be extremely processor intensive. That's a bit beyond the gear and time I have available in my home studio, or at work for that matter.

I'm partially addressing this with a 'cheat' by weighting the hair closer to the root, which makes the hair 'looser' as towards the ends. It's a compromise because it doesn't look so natural for extreme movements but it looks right most of the time, and it allows me to keep calculations down to a few minutes per shot since I'm not using self collision. If a character is being more active then I need adjust the settings a bit for that particular scene--not a big deal. This setup may not be realistic 100% of the time but it's simple and good enough for my purposes. :)

G.