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View Full Version : Fiberfx instancing on particles?, what the? I should know this!



prometheus
04-28-2014, 11:37 PM
I usally solve things like this after some minutes, but this has been and obstacle for over 40 minutes now, just canīt figure it out..
William Vaughan did some showcase tutorials, and here one with the use of instancing, this was in older versions and now the instancing tab is gone from fiber fx and so is the surface tab..
anyway, I thought it should work easier nowadays and automaticly recognize the instancer, but I get nada.

http://www.lightwiki.com/tutorials/fibrefx

prometheus
04-29-2014, 12:01 AM
when I think about it, what william donīt show and what I must have thought wrong, I donīt think william is using the groundplane only here, he must have cloned another small poly area to use with instancing? or is he really just using one ground plane and directly apply fiberfx on to the particles? when I think about it, it doesnīt sound right so..I donīt know?

Lightwave 11.6 32 bit final build windows 7

DAMAKERS
04-29-2014, 01:10 PM
hello,

I think that fibers instances in the way that william use them in the tutorial is no longer included in fiberFX, in the addendum of 11.5 or 11.6 says something about it, that uses the native instancer of lw when 'volume only' is on, but am not really sure.

prometheus
04-29-2014, 01:41 PM
hello,

I think that fibers instances in the way that william use them in the tutorial is no longer included in fiberFX, in the addendum of 11.5 or 11.6 says something about it, that uses the native instancer of lw when 'volume only' is on, but am not really sure.



Edit...you canīt choose the particle system as the instancer source, only the object itself or another object, so it instances the surface geometry you have
the particles on, and not the particles..even though you choose to use particles in the instancing tab.


yes volume only needs to be on, and you cant access or assign it through fiberfx panel, and in the addendum it says it takes use of the native volumetric instancer, the problem is that he chooses specifly the particle system from fiberfx, and if you try to just add an instancer on a surface that has particles, it will only be available to add itīs own geometry or other geometry as instance object, not choose a particle system, so that means you would need additional geometry and having fiberfx on that...so that kind of got me thinking they have destroyed the function of using particles only as william shows it could be done.

it works to assign geometry with instancing and having fiber fx on to that, but I thought you could just use the particle system ..so here I am confused, and I recognize that it do not show up in open gl, only in render when having fiberfx on instanced geometry, in williams tutorial you can see it in openGL too.

I think the lightwave dev team must have broken the function of using particles in conjunction with fiberfx...or william must have made a special setup with something that donīt show in the video...it is clarified that it isnīt the same and uses native instances...but it donīt seem to work anyway.

DAMAKERS
04-29-2014, 01:50 PM
Yup, i had the same questios till you did now, i looked all over the FFX panel and dint see any way to assing particle system to it, so make me think is no more included, but if you find a way, it ill be good to know

prometheus
04-29-2014, 01:54 PM
Yup, i had the same questios till you did now, i looked all over the FFX panel and dint see any way to assing particle system to it, so make me think is no more included, but if you find a way, it ill be good to know

Well ok..but that we did know, the problem is how to use it with instancing. it works on instanced objects and itīs surfaces, not in opengl though as I can see, but that isnīt the point...if you follow his videos and set up a poly plate or other geometry, assign particles directly on it, and then use that object and assign instancer on it, you can only pull down the object itself in the menu, and from there choose particle mode as distributor, but then it will just instance itself, and not any fiberfx settings on to particles.

I am not sure ..but william pics a surface clone? and the fiberfx is then distributed around that area, which makes me think he has more geometry in there than just a ground plane?

DAMAKERS
04-29-2014, 02:09 PM
Yes, william did a subdivide plane and assigned to a poly a different surface called 'clone', and even that chaged, now in FFX panel will see a list of surfaces instead of choosing them; after that william goes to the instances and selects the particle system and it shows on OpGl and at render time, no geometry extra.
That workflow is not in the FFX panel now, but i understad your curiosity, were is it?, can we instance FFX in that way?, or only by intancing the object?.. had the same questions, but not the right one to awser that with property. :(

gerry_g
04-29-2014, 02:54 PM
I remember his tutorial and trying it when it was still sort of doable, the only instancing going on was as stated above ,a copy of the FFX was being distributed to each of the poly's in the subdivided plane, did not work well in 9.6 or 10 can't remember which though probably 10 as I seem to remember it looked great in VPR but rendered all strange (like an alien crop circle) and most likely that is why it was puled

prometheus
04-29-2014, 03:04 PM
I remember his tutorial and trying it when it was still sort of doable, the only instancing going on was as stated above ,a copy of the FFX was being distributed to each of the poly's in the subdivided plane, did not work well in 9.6 or 10 can't remember which though probably 10 as I seem to remember it looked great in VPR but rendered all strange (like an alien crop circle) and most likely that is why it was puled

I will actually test this on the older versions if I can, just havenīt had time..so I might get back on that, I figured he used a divided plane, thus able to pick one dedicated surface named differently. what I do see in his video..that is a little strange, it donīt seem to follow where the particles are born, so itīs kind of weird.

Anyway, it seem to work if you would like o have several instanced character with hair on them, but not in opengl, have to render for it I guess, do not know how good it looks since I only just mockup tested it.

otherwise I would have liked to work with this and particles for testing of some vegetation stuff, and assigning particles on to branches etc, then using fiberfx growing from those particles, guess I will have to just use geometry, a shame though, since I think itīs kind of cool to add procedural textures in the gravity tab and have the fibers sway in the wind so to speak.

Michael

prometheus
04-29-2014, 08:13 PM
yes...it works the old way, and using a divided grid and one surface that is assigned differently, itīs not ideal anyway sinc you should be able to have particles position to distribute a clump of fiberfx, and have a radius control from that particle that controls the size or density of how many fibers there are, as it is with this way, it just spreads out a patch based on that assigned surface area.

not sure if someone edited williams clip, otherwise he must have missed to inform about how the ground plane was set up.
it shows in opengl though, but not nice to have to go back to this older version.


http://forums.newtek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=121655&d=1398824009
121655

Michael

Dodgy
04-29-2014, 08:32 PM
121656Okay, setting ffx to instance on particles is simple.

1> Add your Emitter, ensure particles are being emitted.
2> Add a Plane or sphere or whatever you're growing your hair off. Open FFX and apply it to that object. Turn on Volume Only in the FFX Fibres>Geometry tab.
3> Select your emitter. Add an instancer and set the instance type to particles. Set the item to be instanced as the Plane or sphere or whatever your hairy object was. Hit Render.

prometheus
04-29-2014, 08:40 PM
Okay, setting ffx to instance on particles is simple.

1> Add your Emitter, ensure particles are being emitted.
2> Add a Plane or sphere or whatever you're growing your hair off. Open FFX and apply it to that object. Turn on Volume Only in the FFX Fibres>Geometry tab.
3> Select your emitter. Add an instancer and set the instance type to particles. Set the item to be instanced as the Plane or sphere or whatever your hairy object was. Hit Render.


yes..but you missed my description way before, I have already done that process, but it isnīt the same as using surfaces...thereīs no problem of taking a vase and and add fiberfx on it, then instance clone it with a particle emitter, the wase is additional geometry.
as you see in my previous post..in the old way there is no such things except using the same geometry and just using divided surface parts as the fiberfx area.

Michael

prometheus
04-29-2014, 08:44 PM
And except for the new instancing ways with particles donīt accept surface instance for fiberfx, it donīt show up in opengl either as it did in 9.6

Dodgy
04-29-2014, 09:08 PM
I see what you're meaning, but I think they changed the workflow when they introduced the native instancing, to make it more uniform. You can certainly get the same effect. I applied the Emitter to the ball in this example, set to Surface, and use an instancer set to particles, and my hairy cube gets instanced to the particles.

121657

Emmanuel
06-08-2014, 06:07 AM
While we are at it, how do I apply fibers to a certain surface now ? I have a list of surfaces, but they all seem to share the objects settings, when I change the settings for one surface, the others change to those same settings...I am confused !

prometheus
06-08-2014, 08:56 AM
While we are at it, how do I apply fibers to a certain surface now ? I have a list of surfaces, but they all seem to share the objects settings, when I change the settings for one surface, the others change to those same settings...I am confused !

in the fiberfx object menu, click on it so it I donīt understand what you are doing when changing surfaces and all others also getīs changed though.


http://forums.newtek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=122226&d=1402239334


Michael

prometheus
06-08-2014, 09:00 AM
Edit...
ah now I understood you, well, yes, trying to have different fibers on different surfaces will probably not work, they are treated as the same.
I think that might be a limitation, and it was mainly to use for either having fibers or not.

jeric_synergy
06-08-2014, 09:50 AM
Can't you use Weight Maps to differentiate?

prometheus
06-08-2014, 12:30 PM
Can't you use Weight Maps to differentiate?

Sure you can, you could also use procedurals or image maps in all the texture channel options, but only to a certain degree..and the rendering of color and shadow donīt have such channels, maybe through nodes.
I also donīt think you can differentiate fiber width, even though there is a textured channel option, and if you would like to have different motion depending on fibers on surfaces that could be tricky too.

Michael

Emmanuel
06-08-2014, 12:50 PM
Well, THAT SUCKS, IMO. I thought that using surface names to set up different fibers on an object was a rather basic feature in Lw :( why did they remove that ?

Emmanuel
06-08-2014, 12:53 PM
I mean, if I deactivate a surface, that should be enough to allow for fibers or no fibers. It just makes no sense.

prometheus
06-08-2014, 01:00 PM
I mean, if I deactivate a surface, that should be enough to allow for fibers or no fibers. It just makes no sense.

hmm.donīt quite follow you here, if you have a head and want to select the top of it and some other parts of it and change the surface for it and use that as a method of fiber density appliance, it works as it should be ..so thatīs why the options are there, to activate only the fibers on the selected surface and have the rest to be without it, itīs a rough method for fast and simple distribution, in other cases you might want to paint a weight map instead or use a seperate scalp geometry for example.

Michael

gerry_g
06-08-2014, 02:48 PM
Not certain we are talking about the same thing but last time I set up something with two different surface settings I had to make each a separate layer in modeller with district layer names for each and grow their guides separately, I don't like to give advice as I haven't used it much of late and the process has changed quit a bit but this much I know is the same – When you grow guides from a surface in modeller a bunch of things happen without you realising it, the two point poly chain or hair guide gets a wight map generated for it along with a normal map and all three the poly chain the wight and normal map are assigned a name based off of the original geometry name and these are what are used in layout to assign surfaces so every separate surface needs to be just that, a separate surface. Other than that some sort of image map used to assign multiple colous on one surface, I know that was common in Saquatch and I'm pretty sure it used to be the case in earlier versions of Fibre FX but like I said I haven't used it that much of late , I think this is the point where someone tell me I am talking total BS :-)

Emmanuel
06-10-2014, 03:19 AM
Update: thanks to SafariFXs help, I figured it out. If You use the clone tool in FFX, You can clone the object inside FFX, then switch off the unrequired surfaces and apply different fur to the active one(s).
Lightwave: this is a bad workflow.

122235

jeric_synergy
06-10-2014, 09:08 AM
I mean, if I deactivate a surface, that should be enough to allow for fibers or no fibers. It just makes no sense.
Oh.... gotta take a look at that.