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View Full Version : Displacement using 'Enable Bump'... has this changed??



lardbros
04-22-2014, 07:00 AM
I was trying to get 'Enable bump' displacement (in object properties) working today, and I'm sure this has changed (but it was a while ago I tried it probably.)

If I set up a bump map in the 'T' slot of the old surface editor, and 'Enable Bump' it works as I thought.
BUT, if I do the same in the Nodal editor, it doesn't work.

It seems it has to be plugged into the Displacement slot for it to work. Has it always been this way? I'm sure it used to work when plugged into the bump. It seems a little confusing having the 'Enable Bump' for displacement, not work with the bump input.

prometheus
04-22-2014, 11:45 AM
I was trying to get 'Enable bump' displacement (in object properties) working today, and I'm sure this has changed (but it was a while ago I tried it probably.)

If I set up a bump map in the 'T' slot of the old surface editor, and 'Enable Bump' it works as I thought.
BUT, if I do the same in the Nodal editor, it doesn't work.

It seems it has to be plugged into the Displacement slot for it to work. Has it always been this way? I'm sure it used to work when plugged into the bump. It seems a little confusing having the 'Enable Bump' for displacement, not work with the bump input.

Tested on 11.0 seems to have been that way always, if you use surface nodes and want to apply any texture as displacement, it is the feeding of alpha(or color/bump) in to the displacement that should be done I think.
if you use standard bump outside of the nodes, it works as it should anyway...I donīt think that limits you in anyway? other than it can in fact confuse people on how to best make use of it all.
so basicly..the bump output should not go in to the bump input in nodes to have it work as displacement when activating the "use bump" option in the deform tab, you should simply just use the output from the texture to the displacement input and not the bump input, it is displacement you want to do, not bumping...you have to override the obvious workflow naming convention here, it was logical I guess to name it like use bump, since it was needed
and more connected to the standard bump channel, if you donīt use that thereīs no need for the Bump channel and thus using input of displacement makes more sense.
I can understand the confusement though.

Michael

jwiede
04-22-2014, 11:57 AM
so basicly..the bump output should not go in to the bump input in nodes to have it work as displacement when activating the "use bump" option in the deform tab, you should simply just use the output from the texture to the displacement input and not the bump input, it is displacement you want to do, not bumping...you have to override the obvious workflow naming convention here, it was logical I guess to name it like use bump, since it was needed

This doesn't make sense to me, why even have a "bump" input then in the nodal surface, if the intent is that bump be fed into displacement instead? Just to confuse users?

prometheus
04-22-2014, 12:05 PM
This doesn't make sense to me, why even have a "bump" input then in the nodal surface, if the intent is that bump be fed into displacement instead? Just to confuse users?

The intent isnīt to have bump being fed in to a displacement output, what you try do to is the main object so to speak, you want to displace, fine..just feed alpha in to displacement, and change your thinking on why the "use bump" is there for a starter..which I believe is there to take use of the standard bump layer as displacement, not through the node surfacing where you can plug in to displacement directly which isnīt available in bump standard layers...so in node surfacing, there you should just plug the bump in to bump for finer bumps, then drag the alpha to displacement input.

It makes sense to me, but yes..I do understand why it might be confusing...maybe they should rename it to use standard bump or something?
im pretty sure the guys didnīt intentionally named it or worked it out that way just to confuse us users, it happened on the way so to speak.

And why should we not have a bump input in the nodal surface? it is necessary for other stuff..you canīt have a fixed state of mind that it is there for displacement only.

But maybe they could/should make it work with nodal bump as well..I donīt know.

Michael

lardbros
04-22-2014, 01:02 PM
The way it is isn't limiting at all... Just could have sworn it used to work with the bump, but I can't remember :-)

It's actually useful doing it this way as you can have a separate bump texture on top... It's just pretty confusing.

The bump shouldn't be plugged into the displacement, that doesn't create a nice effect at all.
Now I know it works this way, it makes sense and I won't forget... Just feel sorry for the newbies!

Thanks for your response Prometheus! Appreciated!

RebelHill
04-22-2014, 05:31 PM
it has to be plugged into the Displacement slot for it to work. Has it always been this way?

Yep

jeric_synergy
04-22-2014, 06:28 PM
:stumped:
None of the above affects olde-school bumping, right? So you can still layer a bump map over a displacement, right?

jasonwestmas
04-22-2014, 06:46 PM
This doesn't make sense to me, why even have a "bump" input then in the nodal surface, if the intent is that bump be fed into displacement instead? Just to confuse users?

Yes, I do think that is what they are trying to do. hehe

prometheus
04-23-2014, 10:52 AM
:stumped:
None of the above affects olde-school bumping, right? So you can still layer a bump map over a displacement, right?


Not sure if I follow you right here?
in node surfacing, there you should just plug the bump in to bump for finer bumps, then drag the alpha to displacement input."the bump will will be applied over the displacement that way.

but you can also just add standard layers within the nodes and use all the gradients you want and the same settings as the standard bump layer, then just use that to feed in to the nodes bump..or displace channel.

You are here entering a displacement per surface basis with node, and not through the deform node, which you also could do.
in surface node when you add a bump, it will override the standard bumpchannel.

If you for instance have a turbulent noise fed to both bump and displacement channel in the nodes, all changes in strength scale will affect the bump and the displace equally, but they give slight different look since the bump
shows more finer detail and the displace would need so much higher subdiv levels to show that.
If yo do not want the same texture for bump, just disconnected that textures bump output to the bump input and use another texture and feed that to the bump, or use a layer node in order to acess gradients etc.


Michael

Tranimatronic
04-23-2014, 11:14 AM
I was trying to get 'Enable bump' displacement (in object properties) working today, and I'm sure this has changed (but it was a while ago I tried it probably.)

If I set up a bump map in the 'T' slot of the old surface editor, and 'Enable Bump' it works as I thought.
BUT, if I do the same in the Nodal editor, it doesn't work.

It seems it has to be plugged into the Displacement slot for it to work. Has it always been this way? I'm sure it used to work when plugged into the bump. It seems a little confusing having the 'Enable Bump' for displacement, not work with the bump input.


oddly enough I thought exactly the same thing. When LW11 came out I even added it to a thread somewhere saying it was broken.
A day later I remembered to plug it into the displacement, then I started wondering if it had always been that way.
Part of my brain still yells it WAS that way, but another part yells "no - that was messiah" then another part of my brain realizes it is getting old.

jasonwestmas
04-23-2014, 05:05 PM
For clarity sake, the "Enable Bump" (Followed by Distance Property) check-box in the Displacement Tab is "Bump/ Normal Displacement", it has nothing to do with "Bump" or "Normal" channel in surface editor (Shading Tricks) BUT has everything to do with the Displacement Channel (Geometry based Normal Bump Mapping) in the Surface NODE editor. So the suface editor not only handles shading but it also handles the geometry Based texture maps and procedural inputs as well. However all the geometry based deformations are turned on inside of the Deform tab. With the exception of of the LW FX Tools of course.

prometheus
04-23-2014, 06:11 PM
For clarity sake, the "Enable Bump" (Followed by Distance Property) check-box in the Displacement Tab is "Bump/ Normal Displacement", it has nothing to do with "Bump" or "Normal" channel in surface editor (Shading Tricks) BUT has everything to do with the Displacement Channel (Geometry based Normal Bump Mapping) in the Surface NODE editor. So the suface editor not only handles shading but it also handles the geometry Based texture maps and procedural inputs as well. However all the geometry based deformations are turned on inside of the Deform tab. With the exception of of the LW FX Tools of course.

How is that to clarify? if I put a procedural texture layer in the standard bump channel(outside of the node editor), and then activate the check-box Displacement , it will make the connection and deform it by geometry based normal bump mapping, you could argue about how to set the terms on what they actually do, but the connection is there..otherwise it wouldnīt work to use the bump channel in the surface editor.

If you solely speak of the "node editor bump function" then you are pretty accurate on that description though.

jeric_synergy
04-23-2014, 08:08 PM
The longer this thread goes, the less I know. :(

jasonwestmas
04-23-2014, 08:09 PM
[QUOTE=prometheus;1379652]How is that to clarify? if I put a procedural texture layer in the standard bump channel(outside of the node editor), and then activate the check-box Displacement , it will make the connection and deform it by geometry based normal bump mapping, you could argue about how to set the terms on what they actually do, but the connection is there..otherwise it wouldnīt work to use the bump channel in the surface editor.

"If you solely speak of the "node editor bump function" then you are pretty accurate on that description though."


hrm, I always use the node editor heh. I suppose you can displace from the classic bump channel so people don't have to use the node editor displacement channel if they don't want to. Meh.

prometheus
04-23-2014, 09:15 PM
[QUOTE=prometheus;1379652]How is that to clarify? if I put a procedural texture layer in the standard bump channel(outside of the node editor), and then activate the check-box Displacement , it will make the connection and deform it by geometry based normal bump mapping, you could argue about how to set the terms on what they actually do, but the connection is there..otherwise it wouldnīt work to use the bump channel in the surface editor.

"If you solely speak of the "node editor bump function" then you are pretty accurate on that description though."


hrm, I always use the node editor heh. I suppose you can displace from the classic bump channel so people don't have to use the node editor displacement channel if they don't want to. Meh.

yah..I figured youré one of those guys being "node locked" in thinking:) what I wonder though...that is the speed efficency, if feeding a procedural texture in to the displace channel is faster than using the standard bump channel?
Then again it can be hard to compare, since you would often use a special node texture which as I understand it ..isnīt exactly the same as the standard texture depending on different noise types, so it might not be the specific node to displace VS bump to displace, that shows any speed difference, It might be a factor of the actual procedural itself, it may also be the case that it is just a matter of milliseconds hardly notable..if there is any that is.
You could of course try adding a scalar/color layer node and acess the exact same texture like turbulence and plug that in to displacement and compare against the bump layer when use bump is choosen and check that speed.

I am not that over excited with nodes for surfacing, or displacements, some things feels just so much slower..if they make sure it works just as fast..it will be more enjoyable, I hope to see some real node editing of particles and hypervoxels someday, the hack we got now for hypervoxels do not Auto update in VPR or viper when tweaking the nodes.

One good thing I noticed with the "node hack" for hypervoxels is this...the hypertexture standard scaling falloff do not work, and I donīt think it ever has, however..in the nodes textures they do work, sad part is that it is slow and tedious to tweak since we donīt have autoupdate of VPR for hypervoxels nodes.

lardbros
04-24-2014, 12:56 AM
oddly enough I thought exactly the same thing. When LW11 came out I even added it to a thread somewhere saying it was broken.
A day later I remembered to plug it into the displacement, then I started wondering if it had always been that way.
Part of my brain still yells it WAS that way, but another part yells "no - that was messiah" then another part of my brain realizes it is getting old.

Haha... This is a brilliant post!
Exactly the process my brain went through!!! Ha!
And is going through more and more these days!

lardbros
04-24-2014, 06:25 AM
So, to re-iterate!

Displacement 'Enable Bump' works if you're using the Standard Surface Editor 'Bump' T-slot...
To get it working in nodes, plug your Colour or Scalar value to the Displacement connector.

Not particularly logical, but must be a reason for it. Shame there isn't a displacement T-slot in the standard Surface Editor, to help remove some of the confusion.

jasonwestmas
04-24-2014, 12:02 PM
So, to re-iterate!

Displacement 'Enable Bump' works if you're using the Standard Surface Editor 'Bump' T-slot...
To get it working in nodes, plug your Colour or Scalar value to the Displacement connector.

Not particularly logical, but must be a reason for it. Shame there isn't a displacement T-slot in the standard Surface Editor, to help remove some of the confusion.

Yeah it would be wise to just mimic for the layer channels what is going on in the node editor. Bump-T (Greyscale), Normal (RGB Tangent Space or Object)-T, Displacement -T (GreyScale or RGB VectorBased (when it's supported))