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View Full Version : Keyframing in Lightwave is full of bugs



Sebasvideo
04-08-2014, 06:10 PM
There is one constant in any application that has keyframes: when you go to a keyframe that you had already changed, and you move the object in the viewport, the keyframe gets overwritten with the new value. There's no way around it, it's the same in every media application of any kind that has keyframes.

But not in Lightwave. Lightwave may have many great things, but sometimes it seems programmed by a team consisting of Justin Bieber, the Kardashians, Honey Boo Boo and her family.

I've wasted the whole afternoon trying to edit keyframes for several nulls that drive a spline deformer, for which I kept hitting Shift+→ to go to the next keyframe for the selected null. In each keyframe I have to change the Y value for 4 nulls. Auto Key is set to all channels, and I change them on the viewport using the arrow handles. Then I press Shift+→ again to go to the next keyframe, and repeat. This is the same for several keyframes, and for several nulls, since there are nulls used to deform 8 cables and I have to make their motion slightly different, so it's a lot of work by itself without taking into account the anger and the frustration caused by Lightwave and its poor quality control.

In this screenshot you can see the 4 nulls as I moved them:

121283

However, I move one frame ahead and this is what I see:

121284

Why? Hell if I know. Selecting the four nulls and opening the Graph Editor gives me this:

121282

I know what you're thinking. This guy doesn't know squat, he has fractional frames enabled. Well, no. It's not enabled, and was never enabled. This is plain and simply a giant bug that makes users waste hours of their time, because now I have to go to each of these places in the graph editor, first selecting the specific nulls, selecting all the columns on the left, press Alt and Alt+ Ctrl and move the mouse until my hands bleed to zoom in and out of the area where Lightwave screwed up and clear the bugs that shouldn't be there if the Lightwave team spent some time testing these bugs.

I'm not saying that Lightwave has to be perfect, it's impossible to release software without bugs, but there's a difference between bugs that only happen to a small number of people or in very specific circumstances of things that are not used a lot, and things like these that should come up after a few hours or days of testing. I mean, this is outrageous. A new keyframe doesn't overwrite the older one, but instead tells him: "Hey dude, make some space for me, we can both fit together in here. Maybe the user won't find out."

Do you think this is how software should be released?

04-08-2014, 06:25 PM
You sure say some high-handed, provocative things. :)
Even in the face of others being able to work within the paradigm in your sight at that time.

I'm really not following your self-created situation here; all of the way you have set up this 'error' doesn't expose a bug but a lack of knowledge as to how to work with keyframes in the program.

For all of those items, on the regular interface, going to that odd frame on the timeline with everything selected and pressing delete will get rid of all 4 (of their keyframes). No need to do as you describe in the ge. That, indeed, would be maddening.

Sebasvideo
04-08-2014, 06:30 PM
So tell me how using the shortcut to go to the next keyframe, moving the selected item in the viewport, and the new keyframe not overwriting the old one but instead becoming a new tenant of the same space is my fault or lack of knowledge. Because I've been using media applications for 20 years and that works the same way in all of them, whether they're video, 3D, you name it.

And like I said, the two keyframes become part of the same frame. It's not that the new keyframes are created one frame ahead, in which case I could do what you suggest, go to the frame in the timeline and press delete. Two keyframes in the same frame. Buggy software.

ernpchan
04-08-2014, 06:34 PM
Did you change the framerate of your scene after you started animating? Or imported a scene with a different fps into another?

As I test I switched between 24 and 30 and back a bunch of times and got those weird duplicate frames. If you select all your keys in the GE and hit 'q' you'll quantize your keyframes so they'll snap to the nearest frame number.

Sebasvideo
04-08-2014, 06:36 PM
I would have considered that if I had actually changed the frame rate, but I didn't. From the very beginning it was and still is 23.976 fps.

ernpchan
04-08-2014, 06:38 PM
Hm, having trouble recreating your problem, even with that fps. I get that problem when I change my fps after animating. But I just fix it by quantizing my keys.

Sebasvideo
04-08-2014, 06:39 PM
For all of those items, on the regular interface, going to that odd frame on the timeline with everything selected and pressing delete will get rid of all 4 (of their keyframes). No need to do as you describe in the ge. That, indeed, would be maddening.

I see how you or others might erroneously conclude that I changed the location of the nulls in the next keyframe, and not in the same frame, because I said that I moved to the next frame. This was, however, after I had done the keyframing. I press Shift+→ to go to the next keyframe, change the nulls in the viewport, but instead of those values replacing the keyframe that was already there, they shack up with the older keyframe to keep each other warm.

dwburman
04-08-2014, 07:16 PM
You can have fractional keyframes even if the timeline is not set to fractional keyframes. It sounds like you had a key at 60.001 and since fractional keyframes is turned off, shift-arrow sent you to the closest integer to the key as possible. (I'm not saying you did anything to make the fractional keyframes)


What version of LW are you using?

I ran into bugs like that (fractional keyframes appearing even though fractional key frames was off, the time base was not changed, and the time was not scaled anywhere), but I thought I read that had been fixed.


I'm not suggesting that you're the cause of the fractional keyframes, BTW.
I guess the workaround is to quantize the keys, like ernpchan said, before doing the edits, but it's really annoying if you don't catch it at first.

In other words, the bug might not be in the making of the keyframes, but rather in the keyframes drifting... which is still a big problem.

shrox
04-08-2014, 07:19 PM
...If you select all your keys in the GE and hit 'q' you'll quantize your keyframes so they'll snap to the nearest frame number.

I did not know that.

Sebasvideo
04-08-2014, 07:27 PM
What version of LW are you using?
In other words, the bug might not be in the making of the keyframes, but rather in the keyframes drifting... which is still a big problem.

11.6.2 Windows 64 bit, and yes, it's a big problem that should have been taken care of a long time ago, if it existed that long. This is not even something that you have to wait for users to report, this should be in the list of things to test for every single version.

djwaterman
04-08-2014, 07:51 PM
I'm having no luck reproducing this problem, it may be that you need to watch someone doing some key frame editing, I'm suggesting that you may be bringing a workflow expectation with you from your favored app. I'm going to have a look to see if I can find any video's of using key-frames and graph editor in LW.

djwaterman
04-08-2014, 08:20 PM
Here are some videos, there aren't a lot actually. They may help. There's a lot about the graph editor and dope track that I still haven't got to learning after all these years so it might be worth watching them even if you think they cover known territory.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2C6vJWGsZk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKG3JOP7cOI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sD-s-pUFtLQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8llWYrzmC4Q

basic functions of Lightwave from the point of view of a 3DS Max user
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73JcbWrkcoE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Ax0WRNWZxA

I understand your frustration, you are probably alone with no LW people around you, I don't know anyone personally who uses LW and it means there's no one to call on while your trying to learn.

ernpchan
04-08-2014, 08:24 PM
If you can recreate the issue with specific steps you should submit a bug report. I tried with what I understood from your posts and was unable to so that makes bug squashing difficult.

Sebasvideo
04-08-2014, 08:25 PM
I'm having no luck reproducing this problem, it may be that you need to watch someone doing some key frame editing, I'm suggesting that you may be bringing a workflow expectation with you from your favored app. I'm going to have a look to see if I can find any video's of using key-frames and graph editor in LW.

It's funny because whenever there's a bug in Lightwave, it must be my problem. Or I "may be bringing a workflow expectation with you from your favored app". Please! It's not my "other" favorite app. It's every app that I used for the past twenty years (maybe less, I can't recall, but well over a decade for sure) that has any kind of keyframes. This is, plain and simple, a gross oversight on Newtek's part.

I may not be a user with several years of Lightwave experience, but I'm 43 and I started using computers when I got my Commodore 128, so that's a lot of years. And I have used several different editing applications, After Effects, the older Apple Final Cut Studio with FCP and Motion, and in the 3D world, Modo and Blender besides Lightwave. It's plain and simple, you modify a keyframe by dragging the object in the viewport, the keyframe gets overwritten. This is one of those things that is black or white, no shades of gray. Easy as ABC. Either Lightwave has a giant bug, or a colossal failure in its design. Period.

Sebasvideo
04-08-2014, 08:28 PM
Here are some videos, there aren't a lot actually. They may help. There's a lot about the graph editor and dope track that I still haven't got to learning after all these years so it might be worth watching them even if you think they cover known territory.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2C6vJWGsZk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKG3JOP7cOI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sD-s-pUFtLQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8llWYrzmC4Q

basic functions of Lightwave from the point of view of a 3DS Max user
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73JcbWrkcoE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Ax0WRNWZxA

I understand your frustration, you are probably alone with no LW people around you, I don't know anyone personally who uses LW and it means there's no one to call on while your trying to learn.

See, that's the thing, I'm not going to watch any videos because this is as simple as it gets. I'm in frame 528, the object or null is selected, I move it using the handles in the viewport, and the new value should overwrite the old one, not "Excuse me sir, is this seat taken?" "Well, no, please have a seat and let's share this keyframe together, even if you are totally different than me, because hey, this user has eternal life, so who cares if we waste his time?"

ernpchan
04-08-2014, 08:32 PM
Did you quantize your keyframes to get rid of the redundant ones? You shouldn't still have that problem after quantizing them.

Sebasvideo
04-08-2014, 08:35 PM
I did, but when I read your post I had already wasted hours fixing the mess Lightwave made. Still, even if that worked, I shouldn't have to do quantize unless I have fractional frames on, which I never did. Even if I changed frames rates (which I also didn't) keyframes should be converted automatically to full frames.

geo_n
04-08-2014, 08:36 PM
Did you do a "drag keyframe operation" at any time in any place?

Btw we should get paid for the many support and how to do questions you post at newtek for your paid gig.

Haha :D

ernpchan
04-08-2014, 08:37 PM
For what it's worth, after effects will do the same thing with keyframes when you change the framerate of a comp. But you said you didn't do that.

If you did a load items from scene where your two Layout files have differing framerates you'll have this problem too.

ernpchan
04-08-2014, 08:40 PM
Even if I changed frames rates (which I also didn't) keyframes should be converted automatically to full frames.

Agreed, or LightWave could prompt you telling you have differing framerates and give you the option to automatically quantize all keyframes. This is certainly worthy of a feature request.

Sebasvideo
04-08-2014, 08:44 PM
Btw we should get paid for the many support and how to do questions you post at newtek for your paid gig.

Haha :D

Right, because no one here ever asks any questions related to a job they're working on? I fail to see the point of your comment. If it's a joke it's not a good one.

- - - Updated - - -


Agreed, or LightWave could prompt you telling you have differing framerates and give you the option to automatically quantize all keyframes. This is certainly worthy of a feature request.

Right, but at least in that case you can say it's an omission, not a bug that will waste hours of a user's time. If you change frame rates then you know you have to adjust keyframes, and like you said, I had to do that in AE as well. But at least in that case I made a change myself.

geo_n
04-08-2014, 09:00 PM
Right, because no one here ever asks any questions related to a job they're working on? I fail to see the point of your comment. If it's a joke it's not a good one.

- - - Updated - - -







Well your posts are always bad jokes on the lightwave development team.
I'm sorry but I find it unethical to asks too many questions on how to do one's paid gig. It should be a last resort after doing research on your own.
You should ask someone else to do it for you then or atleast not expect spoon feeding.

brent3d
04-08-2014, 09:14 PM
It's not much of a bug if it's not reproducible by other users and your the only one experiencing it. Instead of ranting try to figure out what you the user maybe doing wrong, check everything...short cut key assignments, plugins, whatever and re-install if you have to, but quit screaming when it's obvious you don't want to be helped.

spherical
04-08-2014, 09:31 PM
What rubs me the wrong way is (please take this constructively), the approach is most often judgmental: "poorly designed", "buggy", "full of bugs". Well, it's all relative. I come across a lot of "bugs" when I try something new; mostly because I don't know my @ss from a hole in the ground as to what I'm trying to make the new-to-me tool do. Usually, I'm asking it to do something that it simply cannot or can but in a way that it cannot. I don't understand it and I own that. (Take the Bend Tool, for instance.) Once I have advanced to the point of actually knowing the tool, by having used it successfully for an extended period of time, then I may offer that there is a bug that I think I have found. Not until then, period.

In order for someone to state that something is "poorly designed", they would have to have the capability of actually designing and coding it "properly" to arrive at a qualified conclusion and make that claim. All else is: "it just doesn't work for me", "I don't like it", "I don't understand it". One would have to be "good with computers" in order to do that. So, please, can we lighten up on the finger-pointing that it's someone else's fault? Until then, the Ignore List is doing its job in keeping my day more positive.

Apologies to all, but this straw has broken the camel's back; and not only on the LightWave forum. We'll help you, but please be nice about it and consider your readers' state of mind. Bashing the application that they use on a daily basis, and the developers who coded it for you to use, just becomes grating and no one wants to read it... again.

djwaterman
04-08-2014, 11:14 PM
I don't mind the attitude, it's just that the problem you describe is not something most users encounter, when I move an item on a key-frame, the old value does get over-written, so we are all a bit at a loss to explain why you might be having that problem, I genuinely want you to work it out so it is no longer an issue for you.

JoePoe
04-08-2014, 11:31 PM
I am one who has opted to not use Autokey for the most part in the past..... AND I am usually a still frame kinda guy anyway.
BUT of course, I have animated many things.

Autokey now on......I AM having this exact issue TOO!! Bizarre.

In 9.6.1 Mac

Very interesting.

It's getting pretty late, I'll try to investigate more tomorrow.

Sebasvideo
04-08-2014, 11:47 PM
I'm sorry but I find it unethical to asks too many questions on how to do one's paid gig. It should be a last resort after doing research on your own.
You should ask someone else to do it for you then or atleast not expect spoon feeding.

Your statement is a load of crap. If you knew the amount of research that I did to do this and other projects you would shut up instead of making such an idiotic remark. I watched tons of tutorials, I read lots of forum threads and I've been working all day long without barely any breaks not only for my current project, but to learn more and be better. I don't expect you to understand that, but how about this, I'll make it very easy for you, just don't reply to any of my posts asking for help. And, whenever I see a post by you asking for help I'm going to go in there and make some stupid comment about how people are "spoon feeding" you, see how you like it.

Sebasvideo
04-08-2014, 11:50 PM
It's not much of a bug if it's not reproducible by other users and your the only one experiencing it. Instead of ranting try to figure out what you the user maybe doing wrong, check everything...short cut key assignments, plugins, whatever and re-install if you have to, but quit screaming when it's obvious you don't want to be helped.

I didn't start this thread looking for help because it's clear that it's a bug. There were plenty of times when things didn't go the way I wanted but I always think first that I might have done something wrong because of not being a long time user of Lightwave. However, this is clear as water. A new keyframe should replace the older one, period. So because the lack of quality control of the Lightwave team led me to waste several hours of my time, and my time, as well as yours and everybody else's is very valuable, if only for the simple fact that life is not eternal, I got really upset and I started a rant, plain and simple. I'm not the first one and I won't be the last.

Sebasvideo
04-09-2014, 12:02 AM
What rubs me the wrong way is (please take this constructively), the approach is most often judgmental: "poorly designed", "buggy", "full of bugs". Well, it's all relative. I come across a lot of "bugs" when I try something new; mostly because I don't know my @ss from a hole in the ground as to what I'm trying to make the new-to-me tool do. Usually, I'm asking it to do something that it simply cannot or can but in a way that it cannot. I don't understand it and I own that. (Take the Bend Tool, for instance.) Once I have advanced to the point of actually knowing the tool, by having used it successfully for an extended period of time, then I may offer that there is a bug that I think I have found. Not until then, period.

You're wrong. Like I said, many times things I do something in Lightwave that doesn't work out the way I think it will. The first thing that comes to my mind is that I did something wrong. Often times, that's the case. But when it comes to using the pre-established shortcut to go to the next or previous frame, and using the handles in the viewport to change the position of the object, that is clear cut, there's no gray area, and obviously I went back and started trying to figure out what did I do wrong. But then I kept going to the next keyframe, grabbing the handles, moving them, and I saw the mess that you see in my screenshot of the graph editor. That is not my fault, it's not my inexperience, it's not that I expect Lightwave to work like Modo. It's a giant bug, plain and simple.

What really gets to my nerves is not that the bug exists, because I know how hard programming software is. What really gets me is that Lightwave has such poor quality control. This should be one of many things that is on the list to test. Not only there's this, but that dope editor that is a joke. How many times have I tried to delete a keyframe and it won't delete, so I have to delete it from the graph editor? How many times have I selected a few keyframes and dragged them only to see that they became duplicated? And then dragged them again, and they get duplicated once again? And I read the manual on how to use it, and I watched tutorials on how to use it, so it's not lack of knowledge. It's a buggy dope editor, plain and simple.

Now, some of you can keep being fan boys and keep drinking the kool aid as if Lightwave had no bugs and no problems at all. Newtek is not going to fix these gross bugs until people start demanding it.

bazsa73
04-09-2014, 12:05 AM
whatever...

Sebasvideo
04-09-2014, 12:08 AM
I don't mind the attitude, it's just that the problem you describe is not something most users encounter, when I move an item on a key-frame, the old value does get over-written, so we are all a bit at a loss to explain why you might be having that problem, I genuinely want you to work it out so it is no longer an issue for you.

Sure, but you might be testing a very simple project just to see if you can reproduce the bug. My project is rather big, over a hundred bones, dozens of nulls, a couple million instances, etc. And I'm not saying that is perfect and free of mistakes, but again, replacing a value in a keyframe by moving that object in the viewport is as clearcut as it can be, it never ever happened to me in any other application with a timeline and keyframes.

Lewis
04-09-2014, 03:00 AM
Sebasvideo - What's your "Auto Key Create Default" settings ? there is several different "modes" there which define what should happen when autokey is creating keys, it can go on all channels or just modified channels and setting like that.

geo_n
04-09-2014, 03:51 AM
Your statement is a load of crap.

Your remarks about the lightwave dev and the lightwave app itself is always crap.

"programmed by a team consisting of Justin Bieber, the Kardashians, Honey Boo Boo and her family."

43 years old? Loll

50one
04-09-2014, 03:51 AM
Autokey and Undo is for girls!

:P

04-09-2014, 04:08 AM
Sebasvideo,
I do recall the bug you speak of but it hasn't been around for a few iterations of 11.6x.
Report it as a bug; you don't need this forum to confirm your bug. Perhaps in rare cases it raises its head

bazsa73
04-09-2014, 06:13 AM
Let's fight virtually! Bang, kabooom, boink!

Sebasvideo
04-09-2014, 06:15 AM
Your remarks about the lightwave dev and the lightwave app itself is always crap.

"programmed by a team consisting of Justin Bieber, the Kardashians, Honey Boo Boo and her family."

OK, I'll give you that, comparing the Lightwave team to trashy pseudo celebrities was too much. I let my anger get the best of me. That's what happens when you waste hours of my time because of a bug that should have been caught before release.

In the end it's just a poor management decision, Lightwave simply doesn't have a lot of testing done to catch bugs like these. I don't expect programmers to release 100% perfect code, but this is something that should have been caught in early testing and fixed. Same thing goes for the several bugs in the dope editor.

As for remarks about Lightwave always being total crap, well, I keep reading post from plenty of people that agree with me on several design failures. Of course you obviously being a fan boy I wouldn't expect you to understand, it's like talking to one of those people that still say that if you want to do anything related to graphics or media you need to buy a Mac because Macs are the best and PCs are crap.

- - - Updated - - -


Sebasvideo - What's your "Auto Key Create Default" settings ? there is several different "modes" there which define what should happen when autokey is creating keys, it can go on all channels or just modified channels and setting like that.

It was always on All Channels. In earlier projects sometimes I would change it to just the channels I wanted to change, but a couple of times I ended up with bogus results (in this case most likely my fault) so I just leave it at All Channels.

RebelHill
04-09-2014, 06:25 AM
Lightwave simply doesn't have a lot of testing done to catch bugs like these. I don't expect programmers to release 100% perfect code, but this is something that should have been caught in early testing and fixed.

If we presume it is a bug in LW itself (which isnt certain in this case, but lets just assume)... what is there to suggest it ought have been such an easy catch?? No one here can reproduce it... there are plenty of other high end users out there, pushing very complex scenes, who've not encountered it (as they'd have reported it). Something'sa gotta give...

To actually be a bug... it must be reproducable in some way... show itself under the same set of circumstances. To be something one would "expect" to be caught and fixed as a matter of course... it must raise its head with some degree of commonality... I fail to see how either of these conditions are satisfied by your descriptions.

Lewis
04-09-2014, 06:25 AM
It was always on All Channels. In earlier projects sometimes I would change it to just the channels I wanted to change, but a couple of times I ended up with bogus results (in this case most likely my fault) so I just leave it at All Channels.

Hmm then yeah something is fishy there, it should overwrite if is on all channels.

Can you make easy/clean test scene so we can all try it and report ? Like something with just few nulls and steps to follow. I've find devs very responsive at fixing stuff that's explained with easy reproducible steps. I'll report it if you don't have time (deadlines are often crazy) just gimme some shortest possible steps.

cheers

brent3d
04-09-2014, 06:30 AM
I didn't start this thread looking for help because it's clear that it's a bug. There were plenty of times when things didn't go the way I wanted but I always think first that I might have done something wrong because of not being a long time user of Lightwave. However, this is clear as water. A new keyframe should replace the older one, period. So because the lack of quality control of the Lightwave team led me to waste several hours of my time, and my time, as well as yours and everybody else's is very valuable, if only for the simple fact that life is not eternal, I got really upset and I started a rant, plain and simple. I'm not the first one and I won't be the last.
Lame excuse, get some skills, some knowledge, or a different software but don't pull this crap here. If you didn't start this thread for help with your bug/problem then your just bashing cause you can, which in itself is lame as well.

Sebasvideo
04-09-2014, 06:41 AM
Lame excuse, get some skills, some knowledge, or a different software but don't pull this crap here. If you didn't start this thread for help with your bug/problem then your just bashing cause you can, which in itself is lame as well.

It's like talking to a wall. There can only be one value per frame, period. New motion changes or updates the previous value in the keyframe, how many times do I have to say the same thing?

But no, hey, it's my fault, Lightwave is perfect, and so are you. Especially your spelling.

JoePoe
04-09-2014, 07:04 AM
Excuse me, maybe my post got lost in the scuffle.

I HAVE REPRODUCED THIS BEHAVIOR.
(I just don't know how...... Yet).

This has to be a setting (or a weird reaction to a setting).
It's never happend to me before. BTW, It's very terrible... I (anyone) would have noticed.
To all of a sudden start doing this does not sound like a bug (depending on your definition of a bug I guess). Something got changed.

Not at computer now, but will be soon to test a couple theories.

Sebasvideo
04-09-2014, 07:15 AM
Did you change the framerate of your scene after you started animating? Or imported a scene with a different fps into another?

As I test I switched between 24 and 30 and back a bunch of times and got those weird duplicate frames. If you select all your keys in the GE and hit 'q' you'll quantize your keyframes so they'll snap to the nearest frame number.

Talking about quantize, I had a distant memory of reading something in the manual, so I looked it up:

Quantize — This useful operation will make all keys move in time to the start of the block period they are contained within. This can help fix slight offset errors that may have crept in.

This is even more mind boggling. It tells me that they know this exists and instead of fixing it as it should, so it doesn't "creep in", they put a command so the user has to fix it. Which makes sense if you made frame rate changes, but if you started the project at one frame rate and kept it there, why do "offset errors" creep in? I mean, a frame is frame. A frame can hold only one value. So what are we supposed to do, select thousands of keyframes every hour or so and fix this when it shouldn't exist in the first place?

Look, I know that 99% of people here know way more than I do, and I'm truly grateful when you give me advice, most times very useful in my long quest to learn Lightwave. And I hope that some day I can have the knowledge you have and post back to give something back to the community. But some things are simple, a frame can hold only one value.

And I know I come off as arrogant on this, but it's just that I get really upset when I have to waste hours correcting something that I shouldn't, and that I hadn't encountered in any other program I've ever used. I apologize if I offended some of you. I never take offense when people are bashing a software I love because I don't make the software, like for example I love Modo and people in this forum bash it many times, and I don't care, although I set them straight if they are not right in their criticism.

RebelHill
04-09-2014, 07:17 AM
Yep... Got it!!!

Make sure "Always show modified" is turned on in GE options (display tab)... with it off you get the described behaviour.

Done.

omichon
04-09-2014, 07:34 AM
Yep... Got it!!!

Make sure "Always show modified" is turned on in GE options (display tab)... with it off you get the described behaviour.

Done.

Thanks RH ! I had the same bad experience a couple of weeks ago on a scene and it drove me mad...too !

RebelHill
04-09-2014, 07:44 AM
Thanks RH

No worries... I suppose technically speaking it IS a bug... though what one might call a "soft" bug. I suspect this stems from when the autokey system got an overhaul and the case of interaction between the changes and this GE setting got missed as there was no "catastrophic" collision of the two.

If someone wats to fog it as such... go ahead... I would... but im off for lunch.

kciaoby!

leandropedrouzo
04-09-2014, 07:53 AM
I'm a little late to the thread but I'll contribute anyway.
A few moths ago I had a similar problem working on a scene that was sent to me. It was set up to 23.976 fps, and I was getting keyframes in odd places but fractional frames was always off. My solution was to switch to 24 fps. Problem solved!

Cageman
04-09-2014, 08:06 AM
I'm a little late to the thread but I'll contribute anyway.
A few moths ago I had a similar problem working on a scene that was sent to me. It was set up to 23.976 fps, and I was getting keyframes in odd places but fractional frames was always off. My solution was to switch to 24 fps. Problem solved!

Yeah...

23.976 fps does imply "fractional frames". In any case... Not sure why anyone uses those odd framerates these days (like 29.97 fps). It is usually better to stick to the closest even FPS and then do the transcoding as a post-process after editing (if you are doing shots for a movie as an example).

omichon
04-09-2014, 08:14 AM
As a side note, I had this problem with a scene set up to 25 fps.

Sebasvideo
04-09-2014, 08:15 AM
Make sure "Always show modified" is turned on in GE options (display tab)... with it off you get the described behaviour.


I didn't know about that option, but I just checked on it and it's on. I mean, it was always on, I didn't enable it now.

Sebasvideo
04-09-2014, 08:20 AM
Yeah...

23.976 fps does imply "fractional frames". In any case... Not sure why anyone uses those odd framerates these days (like 29.97 fps). It is usually better to stick to the closest even FPS and then do the transcoding as a post-process after editing (if you are doing shots for a movie as an example).

I was always confused by these weird 29.97 and 23.976 frame rates, but as far as I've read, they are not fractional frames, it just means that for example you have 2997 frames every 100 seconds. Or something like that, math was never my forte. In any case, if I'm doing something for video, to avoid any further problems, I start with a video rate. Believe me, I absolutely hate these frame rates with decimal places, I would be more than happy to work at 24 fps, but I tried that and the conversion didn't look smooth. I might try it again, I'm tired of working at 23.976.

RebelHill
04-09-2014, 08:33 AM
Yeah... these. x.9x framerates are factional RATES... but not fractional frames. Tbh... you are just as well off working at an integer framerate, and then simply finalsing your thing at the final output fractional rate if required... You DONT actually convert the framerate in the process... you still leave one frame as one frame... so what you effectively get is a time stretch (24fps video played back at 23.976fps plays for ever so slightly longer). At such puny differences... the effect is utterly imperceptible.

This was a common method for converting movies from 24fps to PAL, 25fps (for video release)... No framerate conversion was done... they just played it back a bit faster. This meant that a movie you'd see in the cinema would have a slightly shorter run time on video (specifically... 1 hour of original film would become 57.6 mins of video)... and this is for a whole 1 frame "displacement". On normal playback... cannot be seen... so work on interger rates if you find it more comfortable, and dont worry about the difference.

djwaterman
04-09-2014, 08:36 AM
RH finds a solution but is very cavalier about it so if your not hip to short hand descriptors and need things spelled out slowly like I do, when he says "GE" he's talking about the Graph Editor, and then when that opens you go to the "Öptions" tab, when that opens you go to the "Display"tab and that's where you will find the "Älways show modified" check-box.

I was looking in the display preferences window before I realized what he meant.

beverins
04-09-2014, 08:40 AM
I was always confused by these weird 29.97 and 23.976 frame rates, but as far as I've read, they are not fractional frames, it just means that for example you have 2997 frames every 100 seconds. Or something like that, math was never my forte. In any case, if I'm doing something for video, to avoid any further problems, I start with a video rate. Believe me, I absolutely hate these frame rates with decimal places, I would be more than happy to work at 24 fps, but I tried that and the conversion didn't look smooth. I might try it again, I'm tired of working at 23.976.

For what its worth, here where I work (we use a pipeline of Maya / AE / Nuke ) the house rule is to animate at 24fps and only convert to 23.98 at the very, very last step for the finalized video deliverable.

Newtek should make a FAQ / Knowledgebase on their page with hints and tips such as mentioning this setting.

ernpchan
04-09-2014, 09:15 AM
Yep... Got it!!!

Make sure "Always show modified" is turned on in GE options (display tab)... with it off you get the described behaviour.

Done.

Good find RH!

JoePoe
04-09-2014, 09:27 AM
Yup, the "odd" FPS number.... that's where i was headed.

"Always show modified" was always on ....still got the behavior. And on a clean scene (fps=whole counting number) with "Always show modified" off I did not get it.

Anyway, changing the FPS midstream won't fix the issue it will just prevent more from happening. You will still have to go in and delete the problem spots and re-key. Quantize did not help me (if I was doing it right).

RebelHill
04-09-2014, 12:58 PM
GAH!!!!

Yep, and now Im back to not being able to reproduce it with the "show modified"... I was also tickling a couple other options here n there along the way (for collisions)... maybe there's something there. If something pops up... Ill be back!

Sebasvideo
04-09-2014, 04:18 PM
Yeah... these. x.9x framerates are factional RATES... but not fractional frames. Tbh... you are just as well off working at an integer framerate, and then simply finalsing your thing at the final output fractional rate if required... You DONT actually convert the framerate in the process... you still leave one frame as one frame... so what you effectively get is a time stretch (24fps video played back at 23.976fps plays for ever so slightly longer). At such puny differences... the effect is utterly imperceptible.

This was a common method for converting movies from 24fps to PAL, 25fps (for video release)... No framerate conversion was done... they just played it back a bit faster. This meant that a movie you'd see in the cinema would have a slightly shorter run time on video (specifically... 1 hour of original film would become 57.6 mins of video)... and this is for a whole 1 frame "displacement". On normal playback... cannot be seen... so work on interger rates if you find it more comfortable, and dont worry about the difference.

Thanks, I'll try that. I never liked the PAL way of doing it, to me speed up 24 fps to get to 25, even if the speed up is not huge, changes the motion of the movie. Most people probably wouldn't care, to me cinematic art is sacred, I hate when they cropped movies to 4:3 pan & scan, or trimming sex scenes and muting curse words like TNT does (or did because I'd never watch a movie on TNT anyway) and any other change to the original movie, except for the director's cut, although in my view, all movies should be the director's cut.

But I suppose the difference between 23.976 and 24 fps really is imperceptible, not being even a quarter in difference, and I assume that movies authored on Blu-ray at 23.976 are converted the same way, right?

Although the problem could be when using video camera footage, which normally is 23.976 and trying to do VFX for it, I suppose in that case the frame rate in Lightwave would need to be 23.976.

Castius
04-09-2014, 06:40 PM
I found very similar if not the same in LW 8.

They were reproducible. but it's two step operation. As Rh is finding out. I'll see if i can find the old steps.

But the funny thing was that saving the scene and reloading would delete them. Making it even worse.
I could almost consider them a feature if it was intended. You could make "stepped" keys with in and out trangents.

geo_n
04-09-2014, 07:13 PM
OK, I'll give you that, comparing the Lightwave team to trashy pseudo celebrities was too much. I let my anger get the best of me. That's what happens when you waste hours of my time because of a bug that should have been caught before release.

As for remarks about Lightwave always being total crap, well, I keep reading post from plenty of people that agree with me on several design failures. Of course you obviously being a fan boy I wouldn't expect you to understand,

I'm very faaaaaar from being a lw fanboy. I'm Autodesk fanboy, well not lately after they killed xsi and soon 3dmax.
If you've been here long enough you'll see a lot of posts from me wanting features from other software be brought to lightwave.

I just think posting these threads like Lightwave sucks when you do this, that, this is award winning software really?, programmed by kardashians, etc is way below the belt.
I was just surprised to read a 43 yr old would post these kinds of threads. More like a punk kid in a garage using crack software. Anyways...moving along.

Sebasvideo
04-09-2014, 09:36 PM
I was just surprised to read a 43 yr old would post these kinds of threads. More like a punk kid in a garage using crack software. Anyways...moving along.

Right, because that stupid avatar you had until yesterday with the kid that has the cream on his face is really mature. You're one to talk about who's mature and who isn't. Pleeeease...

Snosrap
04-09-2014, 10:33 PM
Talking about quantize, I had a distant memory of reading something in the manual, so I looked it up:

Quantize — This useful operation will make all keys move in time to the start of the block period they are contained within. This can help fix slight offset errors that may have crept in.

This is even more mind boggling. It tells me that they know this exists and instead of fixing it as it should, so it doesn't "creep in", they put a command so the user has to fix it. Which makes sense if you made frame rate changes, but if you started the project at one frame rate and kept it there, why do "offset errors" creep in? I mean, a frame is frame. A frame can hold only one value. So what are we supposed to do, select thousands of keyframes every hour or so and fix this when it shouldn't exist in the first place? Quantize is mostly meant for imported motion files - not a cover up for poor application design.

Sebasvideo
04-09-2014, 11:17 PM
Quantize is mostly meant for imported motion files - not a cover up for poor application design.

Exactly.

djwaterman
04-10-2014, 11:00 PM
So has this issue been sorted out yet?

phillydee
04-10-2014, 11:45 PM
Quantize is mostly meant for imported motion files - not a cover up for poor application design.

First time I ever used "Quantize" was on one of these...:dance:

121371

Sorry, couldn't resist. Moving along....:offtopic:

jeric_synergy
04-11-2014, 01:42 AM
"Always Show Modified".... the dox seem to indicate that this function is useful when applying Expressions to motion channels in the GE.

(But now it seems in doubt that there's any connection between this and the bug under discussion...) ANYWAY, what exactly is "Always Show Modified" supposed to do?

+++
Now, MY b!t¢hing at the devs is justified 'cuz of my status as the owner of Dongle #99....... ;)
IOW, I'm grandfathered in. :cry:

vncnt
04-11-2014, 03:09 AM
I would have considered that if I had actually changed the frame rate, but I didn't. From the very beginning it was and still is 23.976 fps.

Just curious. How does Lightwave translate full frames into a 23.976 timeline?
This sounds like a fractional project after all.
And Lightwave acts like it.

meatycheesyboy
04-11-2014, 07:32 AM
Just curious. How does Lightwave translate full frames into a 23.976 timeline?
This sounds like a fractional project after all.
And Lightwave acts like it.

I don't believe so. Frame rate only determines the speed at which the project is played back at in real time. He is still working in full frames only, not fractionally.

Thomas Leitner
04-11-2014, 07:43 AM
So has this issue been sorted out yet?

I think the only way to test if this issue is a bug or not is that Sebasvideo posts the scene file (only with the null objects). So we can replicate this behavior.

ciao
Thomas

jwiede
04-11-2014, 12:39 PM
I think the only way to test if this issue is a bug or not is that Sebasvideo posts the scene file (only with the null objects). So we can replicate this behavior.
Multiple other people have confirmed encountering the same pathological behavior (and said so, above), the issue clearly exists.

dwburman
04-11-2014, 06:51 PM
I just thought I should add that scaling the time of your keys, at least in the scene editor would create fractional mainframes at one point... even with fractional keys off.

I think the problem I was having with accidental fractional keyframes also involved 23.9xx fps and would show up upon loading the scene. That is, I could fix the problem and reload the scene and it would be back. I reported it, and it was my understanding that that particular bug was fixed, though I didn't verify it.

Thomas Leitner
04-12-2014, 03:27 AM
Multiple other people have confirmed encountering the same pathological behavior (and said so, above), the issue clearly exists.

Hi jwiede,
I don´t see multiple other people that confirmed the same behavior (at least not in this thread). It isn´t clear at all how you can reproduce it.
Here are the posts that mention similar behavior:


Hm, having trouble recreating your problem, even with that fps. I get that problem when I change my fps after animating. But I just fix it by quantizing my keys.

Ok, this is a complete normal behavior.


You can have fractional keyframes even if the timeline is not set to fractional keyframes. It sounds like you had a key at 60.001 and since fractional keyframes is turned off, shift-arrow sent you to the closest integer to the key as possible. (I'm not saying you did anything to make the fractional keyframes)


What version of LW are you using?

I ran into bugs like that (fractional keyframes appearing even though fractional key frames was off, the time base was not changed, and the time was not scaled anywhere), but I thought I read that had been fixed.


I'm not suggesting that you're the cause of the fractional keyframes, BTW.
I guess the workaround is to quantize the keys, like ernpchan said, before doing the edits, but it's really annoying if you don't catch it at first.

In other words, the bug might not be in the making of the keyframes, but rather in the keyframes drifting... which is still a big problem.

Not clear what causes the fractional frames.


I am one who has opted to not use Autokey for the most part in the past..... AND I am usually a still frame kinda guy anyway.
BUT of course, I have animated many things.

Autokey now on......I AM having this exact issue TOO!! Bizarre.

In 9.6.1 Mac

Very interesting.

It's getting pretty late, I'll try to investigate more tomorrow.

and:


Excuse me, maybe my post got lost in the scuffle.

I HAVE REPRODUCED THIS BEHAVIOR.
(I just don't know how...... Yet).

This has to be a setting (or a weird reaction to a setting).
It's never happend to me before. BTW, It's very terrible... I (anyone) would have noticed.
To all of a sudden start doing this does not sound like a bug (depending on your definition of a bug I guess). Something got changed.

Not at computer now, but will be soon to test a couple theories.

Still not clear what happened.


Sebasvideo,
I do recall the bug you speak of but it hasn't been around for a few iterations of 11.6x.
Report it as a bug; you don't need this forum to confirm your bug. Perhaps in rare cases it raises its head

Maybe Robert knows more about it?


Yep... Got it!!!

Make sure "Always show modified" is turned on in GE options (display tab)... with it off you get the described behaviour.

Done.

and:


GAH!!!!

Yep, and now Im back to not being able to reproduce it with the "show modified"... I was also tickling a couple other options here n there along the way (for collisions)... maybe there's something there. If something pops up... Ill be back!

lost again...


I found very similar if not the same in LW 8.

They were reproducible. but it's two step operation. As Rh is finding out. I'll see if i can find the old steps.

But the funny thing was that saving the scene and reloading would delete them. Making it even worse.
I could almost consider them a feature if it was intended. You could make "stepped" keys with in and out trangents.

Old, but maybe he find it again?


That´s all I found in this thread. It´s not clear at all what happend and how you can reproduce it. So again: maybe we can reproduce it if we have a scene file.

ciao
Thomas

vncnt
04-13-2014, 04:12 AM
I don't believe so. Frame rate only determines the speed at which the project is played back at in real time. He is still working in full frames only, not fractionally.

Scene FPS is used to convert key time (in seconds) to frames.

Imageshoppe
04-13-2014, 12:06 PM
I would have considered that if I had actually changed the frame rate, but I didn't. From the very beginning it was and still is 23.976 fps.

You're frame rate is the issue. Whether a bug or not, or even if it offends your professional video sensibilities, stick with 24, 25, 30, 50, 60, etc. and you'll never have this problem again. Don't use NTSC fractional frame/sec in Lightwave, because it has difficulty quantizing on the fly when making or recording over previous keyframes.

I've hit my head on this issues for a decade or more until I finally realized there was no case I couldn't simply use 30 instead of 29.97, etc., even on long form lip sync renders. I've done long single stream renders up to to 15min at 30fps and simply "told" the final image sequence in AE or DF it's 29.97 and it will sync perfectly with your guide audio or dope sheet for your final export. Remember, if you're using a guide audio track, the audio doesn't have a particular frame/sec attached to it, so as you animate you are in-sync to the audio event, regardless of your chosen fps.

Of course, your final deliverable or product MUST be 23.976 or 29.97 but that can easily happen, as I mentioned, in the NLE or compositing software as you convert to a movie file.

Same goes for your image sequences from live video you might be using as textures, background plate or references, etc., just export from AE or DF as frame sequences to use in LW, and make sure the frame rate in LW for the image sequences matches your project's non-fractional frame rate...

This was gone over in a long lost thread on this forum, from 9.X days... I can't seem to locate it...

Regards,

Jim Arthurs

omichon
04-13-2014, 12:58 PM
You're frame rate is the issue. Whether a bug or not, or even if it offends your professional video sensibilities, stick with 24, 25, 30, 50, 60, etc. and you'll never have this problem again. Don't use NTSC fractional frame/sec in Lightwave, because it has difficulty quantizing on the fly when making or recording over previous keyframes.

Obviouslly you have missed my post. This problem occurs at 25 fps too. I never use anything else and I have experienced the same issue.

Imageshoppe
04-13-2014, 01:12 PM
Obviouslly you have missed my post. This problem occurs at 25 fps too. I never use anything else and I have experienced the same issue.

Apologies... I did not drill through all the posts, only noticed after four pages the original question still no resolution.

If you're seeing this at 25.00 fps, then I'm clueless. I can state that I've had at least 5 or 6 years of no issues at 24 and 30 compared to the keyframe behavior at 23.976 and 29.97. And a whole lot of key frames laid down in those years to test it on... :)

The ONLY time it happens for me is if for some reason I have a fractional fps project opened created by somebody else.

Regards,

Jim Arthurs

ernpchan
04-13-2014, 01:57 PM
If someone can reliably recreate the problem with documented steps they should submit a bug ticket. Or put the steps in a post here and I'll make the ticket.

jboudreau
04-13-2014, 07:40 PM
The only way I can re-duplicate this possible bug is if I use the spread sheet editor to scale or stretch key frames. Even though fractional key frames is off when you scale or stretch key frames it introduces fractional frames. It probably shouldn't be this way but I guess this is the way it works. You would think if fractional keyframes is turned off then no fractional keyframes should be made at all. Another way is like others have said by changing the fps in the middle of a project. Other than that I can't re-duplicate this bug at all.

jeric_synergy
04-13-2014, 10:08 PM
IIRC any scaling, by any method, can result in fractional frames no matter what the setting. Obviously this is severely unintuitive.

Workflow suggestions (for devs): when "No Fractional Frames" is ON, any possible scaling operation automagically invokes QUANTIZE KEYFRAMES.

What would be the downsides of this strategy?

Sebasvideo
04-14-2014, 01:21 AM
IIRC any scaling, by any method, can result in fractional frames no matter what the setting. Obviously this is severely unintuitive.

Workflow suggestions (for devs): when "No Fractional Frames" is ON, any possible scaling operation automagically invokes QUANTIZE KEYFRAMES.

What would be the downsides of this strategy?

That's the way it should be.

creacon
04-14-2014, 02:29 AM
And what would you expect when you scale time and several keyframes come too close (so they have the same integer value)? Would you expect 2 keyframes to exist on the same frame? Or just keep one keyframe and throw the other one away?

What if you later decide to stretch time out again? If you threw away a keyframe, do you expect it to reappear?

I am going to ask one of our animators what happens in Maya (if that possibility exists)

creacon

Thomas Leitner
04-14-2014, 03:29 AM
IIRC any scaling, by any method, can result in fractional frames no matter what the setting. Obviously this is severely unintuitive.....

I could not observe that. If you turn off "Fractional Frame" you could scale (time scale) in Graph Editor and Scene Editor without getting fractional frames, until you use integer frame rates (24, 25, 30 fps). If you use frame rates like 23,976 scaling in Graph Editor works without fractional frames, but scaling in Scene Editor creates fractional frames.

That's what I can reproduce.

ciao
Thomas

jeric_synergy
04-14-2014, 09:42 AM
Sebasvideo, otoh I've never run into this problem, so despite your travails I'm suspecting there's something un-LW in your workflow, that if changed would make your experiences a lot less frustrating.

Thomas Leitner
04-15-2014, 02:39 AM
Sebasvideo, otoh I've never run into this problem, so despite your travails I'm suspecting there's something un-LW in your workflow, that if changed would make your experiences a lot less frustrating.

The problem is that the major bugs that Sebasvideo described are in the keyframing of Lightwave. He said that two keyframes become part of the same frame:


....And like I said, the two keyframes become part of the same frame. It's not that the new keyframes are created one frame ahead, in which case I could do what you suggest, go to the frame in the timeline and press delete. Two keyframes in the same frame. Buggy software.

That is, it is not about several ways to create fractional frames, that can lead to the problem described.

ciao
Thomas

geo_n
04-15-2014, 10:08 PM
This problem occurs at 25 fps too. I never use anything else and I have experienced the same issue.

Do you start from a clean scene or use/import some other scene that could have used a different fps from what you're working on? This is not good.
Do you use the dopetrack to do stretching, not a good idea.

Regarding the stretching of keys that overwrite keys on top of each other when they are to close, this happens in 3dmax, AE too. But If you stretch beyond the initial values, the keys are flipped, the animation is reversed, and no overwrite is done.

geo_n
04-15-2014, 10:19 PM
This fps problem is not unique to lw.
Quantize is also a common tool not a bandaid lightwave devs created that only exists in lw.
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=643540
But that thread is also poor workflow in his part.

dwburman
04-15-2014, 10:23 PM
I found that setting the AutoKey to "AutoKey: Modified" will correctly change the key frame even if the key is on a fractional frame. :thumbsup:

I also made a little video about fractional keyframes that goes over the little bit I know (and recently learned) about the subject. :)


http://youtu.be/h53xIXMrQjs
http://youtu.be/h53xIXMrQjs

geo_n
04-15-2014, 11:34 PM
I watched the video. Good info.
But ime once you mess with the options for fps and fractional keyframe checkmarks with the scene having a bunch of keyframes already, this file is corrupt, not always but better to start fresh.
This is the same for 3dmax, once these other fps(pal,etc) are being changed while there's animation in the file, the app probably tries to adjust the keys and this is the start of problems later on. That thread I posted has a guy using pal and importing motions in ntsc. That's really bad workflow imo.
Its the same type of problems with viewport, scenespace being different units. The start of a lot of problems due to user not knowing 3dmax. This is not a problem in lightwave being internally metric though.

omichon
04-15-2014, 11:42 PM
Do you start from a clean scene or use/import some other scene that could have used a different fps from what you're working on? This is not good.
Do you use the dopetrack to do stretching, not a good idea.

I always start from a blank scene at 25pfs and I never use dopetrack and do all my re-timing operations by moving keys manually.
That said, I have experienced this issue one or two times only recently. I will try to keep a copy of a scene if I experience it again for deeper study.

geo_n
04-16-2014, 12:12 AM
OK, I'll give you that, comparing the Lightwave team to trashy pseudo celebrities was too much. I let my anger get the best of me. That's what happens when you waste hours of my time because of a bug that should have been caught before release.

In the end it's just a poor management decision, Lightwave simply doesn't have a lot of testing done to catch bugs like these. I don't expect programmers to release 100% perfect code, but this is something that should have been caught in early testing and fixed. Same thing goes for the several bugs in the dope editor.

As for remarks about Lightwave always being total crap, well, I keep reading post from plenty of people that agree with me on several design failures. Of course you obviously being a fan boy I wouldn't expect you to understand, it's like talking to one of those people that still say that if you want to do anything related to graphics or media you need to buy a Mac because Macs are the best and PCs are crap.

- - - Updated - - -



This is how you apologize to the lightwave devs? Poor management and by calling it crap again and saying some people agree with you on this. I had to read again how you apologize since you mention it in octane thread. All I can say is yikes! Good apology.
Good shot on the mac pc too. :D
Sorry I will not reply to your pm that has a lot of vulgarity.

allabulle
04-16-2014, 04:57 AM
(!!)

samscudder
04-16-2014, 11:13 AM
Not really any help, but I've seen this frustrating behavior ocassionaly, although I can't reproduce it intentionally. I normally work in 29.97fps.

Looking at the LWS file description in the SDK, all times are specified in seconds (second numerical value in a Key line in a Channel Envelope), and thus you will nearly always have a floating point number as a time value unless you are on a round second.

All the times I've checked so far, they've been very slightly off... For example, with a 29.97fps scene, a keyframe at frame 16 gave me a time value of 0.5338672399520874. If you divide 16 by the value to get the framerate again, it works out as 29.96999778715761 fps.