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View Full Version : Lightwave - BEYOND THE STIGMA! (its a rant)



Julez4001
03-25-2014, 12:19 AM
Years ago I started a thread called Lightwave and that Stigma, it was a "call to arms" of sorts to get Newtek to get off their arse and do some modern-day marketing to match their competitors.
IT WORKED! The response from that conversation is legendary (from all of LW users) and we can see that Newtek in fact change how LW is precieved. Their website is modernized and
no longer kiddie-land, they have mini-youtube sites, third-party tools page, etc.

Even after introducing some new tools they are starting to rest on their laurels (whatever that means) and need to maintain an edge.
Look at Cinema4D and its takeover of the motion graphic market place. Why? The MoGraph toolset !
It has taken users like Erikal and Bryphi77 to use DPont tools to create similar VFX
Cinema4D MoGraph toolset has the easy-to-use (sometimes one to three click) features that mimics Dpont without a degree in nodes and physics.
At the very least, Newtek/Lightwave 3d.com should be promote these guys on page 1 on the site.

Any of Lightwave third party should be promoted on the site especially when the perception of the tools and techniques make it rival it's close competition: Modo and Cinema4d.
As mention before Modo puts its third party tools on page 1. Mesh Fusion and the various "KITS" are always on page 1.

If Lightwave has a bad preception that it has weak character animation tools then show 'em RHIGG-IT.

RHIGG-IT is rock solid and needs to be promoted. ******

ChronosSculpt needs features that rival LIPSERVICE (add audio, save states, etc) and market as such.
When those features are introduced, put a case study on page one. Show Maya Users/Students using the tool.

Do a polished and sexy tutorial on Nevron. Show people how you want them to use the tool versus "lip" service of possibilities.

Side note:
DangIt! FiberFX needs Steve Worley hands on it to make it rock solid. FF is still crashing and is not at a comfortable level that many lightwave users can "rely" on it.
Sure there is some users who figured out how to tip-toe through it make it manageable (which would be great to have them on page 1 showing that) but Sasquatch was always reliable.
Are we really just going to keep going years and years with this wishy-washy state.


We need a modern day volumetric solution (FumeFX-ish) as Hypervoxel 3 is decade old.
I say it again...HyperVoxels is over 10 years old.
First Maya volumetrics past it, then Softimage, and FumeFX came to 3dsmax (and others now).
We have Turbulence (also available for Cinema4D) but he seems like odd-man out and you don't have tutorials or any promotion on page 1 about it.


The perception is that Lightwave doesn't have multiple options for character tools, no real volumetric solution nor anything equal as "easy" Cinema4D mograph kit.

Lightwave needs to fix these perception instead of relying on users to do waaaaaaay too much homework for them.
Users youtube video and just basic discovery via the forums are all nice but a little bit of front page exposure could help.

You are doing good Newtek with Lightwave marketing, light years from years before however your competition is doing better.
Match 'em and beat 'em. Become the trendsetter. Take back the mograph market.
Become the buzz word that students use when they don't want to have to use Maya as they say with Cinema4D now.

Sorry for my rant.

spherical
03-25-2014, 12:32 AM
Don't be sorry. It's well placed.

alexs3d
03-25-2014, 02:04 AM
Even after introducing some new tools they are starting to rest on their laurels (whatever that means) and need to maintain an edge.


hmm, thatīs not right, i think the only reason why it is sometimes a little silent is because they are working hard on lightwave, chronosculpt and nevron, and maybe on other things :) , they are too busy. the SMALL team surprised us last year with amazing new tools for lightwave, which i did not expect, so it is a litte unfair to say they rest on their laurels, one year for a developer is nothing :) time runs to fast, they are doing really great work.



At the very least, Newtek/Lightwave 3d.com should be promote these guys on page 1 on the site.

Any of Lightwave third party should be promoted on the site especially when the perception of the tools and techniques make it rival it's close competition: Modo and Cinema4d.
As mention before Modo puts its third party tools on page 1. Mesh Fusion and the various "KITS" are always on page 1.

i give you right with the website stuff, this could be done better, the start page is not so clearly arranged and they are often behind the time with actual news.
promoting all the cool tools and plugins on their startsite is surely a step forward, thats a good idea and should be done in the near future.




We have Turbulence (also available for Cinema4D) but he seems like odd-man out and you don't have tutorials or any promotion on page 1 about it.

there are some great tfd tuts on liberty3d
http://www.liberty3d.com/2014/01/tfd-advanced-concepts-and-projects-atmospherics/
http://www.liberty3d.com/2013/09/tfd-advanced-projects-and-concepts-fireball/
http://www.liberty3d.com/2013/05/5519/




Match 'em and beat 'em. Become the trendsetter. Take back the mograph market.

:thumbsup: , cody did some cool mograph tutorial a few days ago, and also a mograph reel, i think they understand and are on a good way, it only takes time :)

motivalex
03-25-2014, 03:22 AM
Yep. Hypervoxels is a decade old and the text tools two decades old. Kudos to all the cool new stuff over the past couples years though.

Luc_Feri
03-25-2014, 07:14 AM
I've seen Modo go from a one package trying to do all to be very incorporating of 3rd party plugins and extra functionality.

It is a good approach and works for me, you buy extra bits you might need, it's up to you. I used to see a few old LWers or Modo users slate Lightwave and say it relies too much on 3rd party plugins and stuff sometimes, so I laugh now when I think of how Modo is morphing into that same 3rd party approach too.

For me the only very unstable thing is indeed FiberFX, I can crash that just by breathing sometimes. It is very stable if used with Zbrush curves but as soon as you start styling LW's own curves then the problems begin.

Hypervoxels you say might be 10 years old, I would like to see this area improved upon but is it really 10 years old? I'm newish to LW but we are on version 3.0 of hypervoxels so when did version 3.0 get released, wouldn't that be the point of focus here? I've no idea when Hypervoxels 3.0 came out, so is this version that old?

I like my Modo but I like my Lightwave, for me Modo flatters to deceive sometimes, not all of the new features work as great as advertised. When version 701 came out it was a complete crash fest and I stopped using it the same, even now SP5 can still be crashy.

LW3DG seem to work more quietly, less chatter from developers but I do feel that when they release something it is more robust and ready than what the foundry have done with Modo.

I did buy Chronosculpt, for an early release it was stable and solid on it's release. I wasn't deceived by a flashy video that when I tried it at my end performed nothing like the demo and was crashy as hell. No, I brought a 12 Million polygon mesh straight from Zbrush and it worked smooth as butter as advertised, now that is solid development.

As for Rhiggit, it looks fantastic and RebelHill really knows his stuff and is a clever fella indeed but with Genoma, LW have a conflicting pipeline tool so I think it is probably why they don't show demo stuff and examples with it. I've seen a recent video with Lino working on Nevron. It was a very good example and the tools look slick. I do agree though that LW3DG could certainly show off Nevron with Lino doing some really amazing professionally done demos and dedicated training on a YouTube channel. To be honest though, I would still prefer the developers to be in the workshop though.

It is nice to see new videos, demos and training. If they can get Cody to keep knocking out cool little tips and tricks this would really boost it's own Youtube page and draw in new users.

prometheus
03-25-2014, 07:32 AM
Are you guys kidding?
Hypervoxels was updated not long ago...even though it carries the same version it is improved on.
Hypervoxels was revamped a few versions ago with a new blending mode for the volume voxel mode..so itīs quite modern:D

then we take a look at what it does in terms of blending...not much:(

Seriously ..they need to Get back to look at how dynamite did itīs blending mode, and how modo blending is(better) ..and also add the option to use volumetrics fully on geometry surface basis.

Making it fumish?...itīs just confusing things..fluid effects is done best in a fluid sim, such as turbulenceFD, so fumish is just related to that...distance between particle gradients in all channels possible, geometric surface appliance, a better blending mode with tension like dynamite had, and shadow maps, open gl volume presentation(like dynamite or afterburn)
a better illumination scattering control, thickness curve control.

And lastly...a better falloff, it actually do not work today...it should fade off the hypertexture
from a sort of offset texture range..that way sharp round texture cutoffs in the hypertexture will dissapear.

That should be a good update...and that is what they technicly can do to improve hypervoxels, without starting to develop their own fluid solver.


For marketing with a good asset site, well...they still havenīt managed to present the preset central in the assets section, It could be located under plugins for example, how the heck is people gonna find it easy otherwise?
Ideally it could maybe be coded in under lightwaveīs help menu as an link or update button called assets or something.

I just noticed that they updated the plugin site with some news, last update was october last year
Almost 5-6 months of inactive updates..that isnīt good
22 of Mars this year ..they added some plugins from Kevin Phillips.

No information about the new tools from 3dpowers still though...canīt for the life of me figure out why
it isnīt on display there, the developer must loose some potential clients if it can not be seen.


Michael

hrgiger
03-25-2014, 08:12 AM
I guess im unclear as to what youre hoping for. Despite Rebel Hill's excellent rigging system, LW has a lot issues to resolve in the character animation department. It also cant hope to be a replacement for Maya or make students want to learn it when its not being used in high profile studios and films like Maya enjoys. LW3DG needs to address some longstanding issues in LW but users bear some of the responsibility to show what LW is capable of as well. Chris Jones did that recently.

LW cant hope to shake a lot of its stigma while its not a unified app and there are so many hoops to jump through to do some of the things that are fairly simple in other apps. Just MHO.

andypete
03-25-2014, 08:49 AM
I’m reinvesting time and money in LightWave, and its third-party tools. There are very specific things led me to use other packages and that are now drawing me back to LightWave. I’m seeing things in LightWave that I really like.

But those are just personal observations about features in a particular category of 3D software. The real competition and driving issues regarding tool choices are a different matter, at least in my work.

Tools are cheap. Typical department heads can buy lots of software before reaching their capital threshold. In corporations, you might see five seats of 3D software (non engineering) per thousand employees. But we spend millions developing and maintaining the infrastructures surrounding them. That’s where the battles are fought at an enterprise level. The requirements that follow shape my decisions, whether I like them or not.

I’ve always liked LightWave. It was the only viable option at the start of my career. I grew up with unix. I still subscribe to that philosophy. I want smaller tools that are superbly designed and executed. They need to be extensible. LWCAD got my attention. MOI takes this even farther.

Ultimately, I want to forget I’m using software at all. Clients pay me to help them convey their ideas, and to develop new products and technology. Those are my objectives, and my confidence in LightWave is growing.

JohnMarchant
03-25-2014, 09:00 AM
I agree with much of what you have said. For me HV may have been update but there really is no stunning difference from the old HV 3.0. Particles need updating to.

FFX, yes its the one thing in Layout that i can guarantee to get a crash now and again. I agree get Worley involved in this.

RHigget, is great and he needs to be brought in to help with Genoma, Genoma has great potential and more work from Lino and the team im sure will bring even more from Genoma for us.

Viktor's LWCAD and Denis Pontonnier Plugins really need a special mention, i believe that these 2 developers have keep many people using LW who may have jumped ship, LWCAD certainly kept me here.
Part of the problem for LWCAD is its name, it implies and some people believe its only for archviz work and whilst its great at that, its also great at so much more and if Viktor and NT can sort out the nurbs
issues LWCAD 5 should be another game changer for modeling.

These guys really need to be brought in closer to the NT fold. I also believe that the developers at 3D Powers need to be brought in as well. The Japanese LW market and especially plugin developers is
great, some of the plugins that they have developed are amazing. Im thinking of DStorm in particular, Liquid and Jet pack would be great additions.

Overall as a fairly small development team in think LWG3D have brought LW forward in leaps and bounds in the last few years especially after the core affair and im sure that behind the scenes there is much
going on, maybe just some more info.

As far as who uses what and in what film. For me the fact that LW is used allot in TV speaks volumes for its ease and high turn around of quality work, yes i know its not used much in films, but films have bigger
budgets and more time, so can afford the more expensive tools. It would be nice to see some more "Iron Sky" type stuff out there and im sure we will see it, but some of the TV work is equally as good as allot
seen in films and at a much higher price.

erikals
03-25-2014, 09:24 AM
not sure, maybe they should just skip upgrading Hypervoxels all together and jump directly to creating Fluids...?

http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20061218144311/conferences/images/3/36/Crystal_Clear_Splash.png

what u think...
Hypervoxels or Fluids... ?

JohnMarchant
03-25-2014, 10:02 AM
Personally erikals id go for turbulance type setup, we need fire,smoke,mist,water and fluids.

Surrealist.
03-25-2014, 12:18 PM
I think the "perception" will change as they actually release new features, updates to the underlying system etc.

It is driven purely by that alone.

Marketing can only go so far and, what they do have looks pretty good. But in my opinion much if this is still rather superficial.

The real perception change comes when they finally chuck the old system and come out with something truly modern under the hood.

Hail
03-25-2014, 12:33 PM
The lack of updates to the text tools has gotten me to look deeply into C4D more and more everyday but I hope a substantive update to the text tools in lw will change that, otherwise C4D will continue to look more and more interesting until there aren't any lightwavers left.

robertoortiz
03-25-2014, 02:08 PM
Funny I recently had to defend Lightwave online.
It is AMAZING how ill-informed people are about the program.
How quick they are to bash it without facts.

And the sad thing is that thread I was in morphed from
"Autodesk Sucks They killed Softimage"

TO

"Autodesk Sucks They are forcing me into Lightwave, and it sucks"

3DGFXStudios
03-25-2014, 03:19 PM
I agree with most things said in the first post. In LW there are a lot of areas that need improvements, but it doesn't make it a bad program. If you compare it to other packages than LW is missing things on so many levels.
I've to say I like LW a lot and for what I have to do with it it's a very good application but here my list. not in the correct order of importance:

- Hypervoxels: Personally I think they are pretty sucky. First issue is the already mentioned is the blending. They have motion blur issues. There is no nodal shading. Even with the normal shading a voxel will look different then geometry. The don't put out useful render buffers.
- FiberFX: Ok it's buggy, every one knows that. Painting and creating hair guides is just pathetic. It's a pain in the butt. Painting hair guides in Layout is slow and miles away from intuitive. I can not figure out how I can create a beautiful hairstyle with it. The modeler FiberFX tool is just stupid. The navigation works exactly the opposite way as modelers navigation. It's a separate window. Why? I'm asking a separate UV window for years which I don't get. I rather have a hairguide paint tool in the modeler viewport than in a stupid little window with a ridicules zoom factor. If you create long guides for example and add a guide you can find the control point somewhere on the moon. Newtek should ditch that FiberFX modeler tool and make an intuitive tool that works directly in modeler.
- No pixar subD's and Catmull Clark subD's are buggy and don't work well with UV's.
- No renderlayers (I know there are plugins, that's not the point ;) )
- Volumetric lights don't work right. If you look directly in to a cone it just looks weird. No support for fog volumes
- No fluid particles. Particle rotation behaves strange. (could be fixed in the last update) No functionality to fill volumes or simulate liquids in any way.
- Nodal Displacement kills performance of layout to fast.
- some other stuff I forgot

I still love LW but sometimes these things need to be mentioned.

lardbros
03-25-2014, 03:55 PM
I do agree with the original poster's comments... But taken a minute and look how far they've come in the last few years, note specifically, since Rob joined the team and gave them some direction.

The website is waaay better than it was... We have VPR which is now beginning to turn my colleague's heads when they see what I'm doing. The Autodesk debacle has even had them make comments like "You're lucky... You've still got LightWave"

They really feel like Autodesk is going to bring them bad news about their favourite package, 3dsMax. They're also looking at other avenues to make sure they make the correct move this time.

LightWave is still on the up in my opinion... There's only a certain amount they can work on for each release, and they've chosen the things that either take priority from a userbase point of view, but ALSO what makes sense in order to keep old functionality, backward compatibility, and at the same time make sure they are carefully extending the old architecture to enable further impressive features and tools.
It's a really difficult task... And so far I'm very impressed with what I've paid for. Instancing, Flocking, and VPR are all seriously cool features. I'm not a fanboy, I use 3dsMax in my day job... But I will still hop over to LightWave when I know it can do something ten times faster.

Plastic and water for example... A colleague managed to get 9hr render times on an HD shot of Real flow water, pouring into a bottle.
I took the scene (and despite the FBX import in LightWave needing lots of tweaks to be perfect) and I had it rendering in less than 10minutes. (And it looked way nicer too).

JohnMarchant
03-25-2014, 04:01 PM
What is it with all this lack of text tools stuff. Ok maybe LW does not have the best tools in the world, but hey its only text, there are many ways to get good text in LW through EPS,SVG and the like.

I realise its just another grip but ive heard this is several places in the last couple of days in respect to LW, i cant imagine using text tools as a means to jump ship to another program and least of all
one that costs allot more.

hrgiger
03-25-2014, 04:13 PM
But this thread isnt about what you like about LW nor is it about what you can do with it. Its about How LW is perceived by others. The usual stuff, LW cant do good character animation, LW is full of outdated workflows and workarounds,
LW is a split application forcing you to do things in the modeling environment that should be done in the animation environment, LW isnt capable of doing high end work, LightWave wont last,and overall just not taken seriously as a competitor to what else is out there. Personally, I think LW3DG overall does a decent job at marketing LW but unfortunately people who think the above things about LW arent entirely wrong. And im sure LW3DG are working hard to resolve some key issues but theres just no way to know what kinds of things they are working on. So perception wont change until some of those improvements become evident. And the best mrketing team on the planet couldnt hope to spin some of the fundamental flaws that people perceive about LW until they are addressed.

Julez4001
03-25-2014, 06:53 PM
Man... I wish SplineGod was still with us.

Sorry about that, but he definitely had the pulse of LW Community.

"But this thread isn't about what you like about LW nor is it about what you can do with it."

Lets take the text tool. I worked with it because its all we have. I actually after using LW for 20 years just started to use the "Multi Text" Tool.
Which allows to go back and start over with the same settings you had use before, a good thing. However compare that text tool with 3DSMAX, Maya and (gasp) Cinema 4D.
C4D allows you quad-ify the text so you can apply cool deformers and Dpont-like visual fx for cool mograph. You can easily just go back and type stuff over and everything gets updated.

You would have though that LW would have at least made a dynamic non-linear text tool in LayOut just so no one could point this out to them.
Sure we don't have stack editor for Modeler or Layout but at least you can re-type stuff that keeps bevels, surface names, etc and other things with own personal history.
Imagine a text Plugin in layout...that would at least knock the glaring wound that is the text tool in Modeler.
Not a tool I like or dislike but imagine Softimage users coming to Lightwave and having to deal with that.


Really?


The 10 year stuff should have been updated.
I know that something need to change under the hood but LW3DG are innovative to cover the bad spots.


LW3DG need to operate like this:

Autodesk is going to get rid of 3DSMAX userbase just like they did the Softimage userbase.
What kind of app can we have ready for them so they can get from under the Autodesk thumb.
Houdini, Modo and C4d may look better than LW if we don't watch out. Think like a future 3dsMax converter.


Take care of the obvious stuff first.


[pipe dream mode]
I know it cost..but really buy Turbulence (therefore robbing CD4 of a volumetric renderer), Sasquatch, LWCAD tools part of Modeler....
all I know that would really cost but dang-it. Fill the holes up.
I actually like the two app thing just give Layout the obvious non-linear everyday tools bit by bit.
[/pipe dream mode = off]

COBRASoft
03-25-2014, 07:34 PM
For that, people like Viktor (LWCad) must be willing to sell their plugins. I'm not saying Viktor and DPont and so are not willing to do this, but you have to consider this too.

It's embarrassing that a 2.5D program like AE has better 3D text tool capabilities than LW has nowadays IMHO. I'm sure some 3rd party developers could make it happen, but nobody would be willing to pay enough for it.
Also, a history stack is kinda required for this to be really great. Euhm... LW doesn't have that either. So, start with the foundation and built it from the ground up within current LW. Hmmm, that's probably exactly what LW3D is doing with LW11/12/...

P.S.: Looking forward to what LW12 will bring (and not bring)!

cresshead
03-25-2014, 08:41 PM
if i hear one more person talk about under the hood"..i'll...******

if it's under the hood...i can't see it...may as well no be there then right?
you can' showcase something that you can't show...

we need go faster stripes, white wall tyres, a new exhaust box...a new paint job
some chrome...
not more under the flippin hood nonsense...been hearing that line since Lightwave 9.0
show me the money...and don't blow the bleeding doors off....uh...actuallty blow 'em off!

fugg it...let's rock!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49OZ0M_0fhg

Rayek
03-25-2014, 09:23 PM
There *is* already a free text plugin available for Lightwave: it's called Blender ;-P

I use it all the time for text generation:
- it's non-destructive: compatible with other modifiers like arrays, deformers, etc.
- can use any spline for its beveling and tapering
- easy extrusion: one value
- resolution can be easily set with one value
- full manual kerning (alt-left and right). Even Cinema4D could not do manual kerning before the current version.
- linked text boxes, with adjustable width and height!
- object fonts (meaning you can use any object to represent a letter)A
- text on curve
- paragraphs can be aligned left, right, center, justify, and flush
- nice spacing settings for letters, words, and lines.
- offset

...and just about every property can be animated (except a change in font family, I believe).

But yeah, the lack of a proper non-destructive text tool in Lightwave has sort of been the bane of it in regards of motion graphics and how LW is perceived in that area. When I first opened Lightwave, and tried its text tools (coming from Cinema4d 8.5) I thought: "hummm... that's it?" I was very underwhelmed, and continued to use C4d for that (and Xfrog, still do). Nowadays I use Blender for text.

realgray
03-25-2014, 10:36 PM
I switched to Blender for text as well. Got sick of trying to manage LW's text beveling.

motivalex
03-26-2014, 01:22 AM
There *is* already a free text plugin available for Lightwave: it's called Blender ;-P

I use it all the time for text generation:
- it's non-destructive: compatible with other modifiers like arrays, deformers, etc.
- can use any spline for its beveling and tapering
- easy extrusion: one value
- resolution can be easily set with one value
- full manual kerning (alt-left and right). Even Cinema4D could not do manual kerning before the current version.
- linked text boxes, with adjustable width and height!
- object fonts (meaning you can use any object to represent a letter)A
- text on curve
- paragraphs can be aligned left, right, center, justify, and flush
- nice spacing settings for letters, words, and lines.
- offset

...and just about every property can be animated (except a change in font family, I believe).

But yeah, the lack of a proper non-destructive text tool in Lightwave has sort of been the bane of it in regards of motion graphics and how LW is perceived in that area. When I first opened Lightwave, and tried its text tools (coming from Cinema4d 8.5) I thought: "hummm... that's it?" I was very underwhelmed, and continued to use C4d for that (and Xfrog, still do). Nowadays I use Blender for text.

It's shocking that 'Text' a main form of communication in all areas in design hasn't advanced in Lightwave that much since the Amiga version (I know I'm being brutal), compared to the other apps including the free Blender. As I keep saying when I post about this, the team have really advanced Lightwave impressively in a lot of areas in the past couple of years. When showing Lightwave to Cinema 4D guys, LWs can hold its own and in places surpass, but when it comes to text mo-graph etc, I have to hide in embarassment. "You mean you have to restart from scratch if you client wants to change a letter??!!!!??!!!!!!"

robertoortiz
03-26-2014, 06:07 AM
... LWs can hold its own and in places surpass, but when it comes to text mo-graph etc, I have to hide in embarassment. "You mean you have to restart from scratch if you client wants to change a letter??!!!!??!!!!!!"

that happened to me yesterday.
i was showing a graphic i did to my lead layout artist and he said,
"that look great, but what is the font size you are using? Change to one size smaller. Of course I was prepared and I had attached to a null all the text, after all this is not my first rodeo.
BUT I had to explain to my designer co worker that if he wanted to change things like "Font Style, Bold or Italics" he would have to come back in 10 minutes."
For non cg designers in the design world that is a deal breaker for an app.


Or say that I have client that come in with his company a Logo in a thumb drive.
it is saved in a vector format, say PDF.

for an upcoming event he would love to see me load it into the scene right in front of him and he only has 45 minutes to show me what he wants. (While I control the converted logo asset in LW)
The idea of having to wait an hour until I convert his vector Logo by hand would be preposterous to him.

I know that this sort of stuff is NOT sexy to demo in a tech show like SIGGRAPH.
But iti the kind of stuff that SELLS programs.
After all we designers are ALWAYS looking for the NEXT tool that will make our lives easier.


Having said that,
at work we LOOOOOVE the AE exchange tools in LW. we are using it a lot now.

Julez4001
03-26-2014, 03:18 PM
IF Newtek goes..."well it'll take us another three years to get history stack built at the CORE (pun intended) for every tool to have the resource OR
well we can bang out a quick plugin that gives you non-destructive, non-linear text creation and have it ready by Siggraph...I am going go for the latter.
If in other words, we don't have text editing like other apps because it would require re-write of Lightwave and that's whats holding up! I say pooh... give us text only generation with history like yesterday.
We can wait on the rest.

Rayek
03-26-2014, 10:46 PM
At least Modo's text tools is on the same level as LW ;-)

realgray
03-26-2014, 11:45 PM
At least Modo's text tools is on the same level as LW ;-)

I know it's amazing. Either you go free with Blender or the big guys at 3,500+ for decent text tools. Massive hole for the midrange software.

50one
03-27-2014, 03:15 AM
I know it's amazing. Either you go free with Blender or the big guys at 3,500+ for decent text tools. Massive hole for the midrange software.



AE / part of CC Cloud Ģ50 a month + Element 3D - 150$ - and you all set if it's the titling you're after...



Simon

motivalex
03-27-2014, 04:45 AM
AE / part of CC Cloud Ģ50 a month + Element 3D - 150$ - and you all set if it's the titling you're after...

Simon

A great plugin and a solution for some tasks but has its limitations. I suppose as currently I'm waiting to see what LW12 brings before looking at C4D again, I'm downloading the new Blender just released to do some tests.

Surrealist.
03-27-2014, 08:22 AM
AE / part of CC Cloud Ģ50 a month + Element 3D - 150$ - and you all set if it's the titling you're after...



Simon


Also comes with a lite version of C4D which would come in handy I would think for this kind of think, as I think this is what it was designed for. Though I have not used my copy.... yet.

http://tv.adobe.com/watch/learn-after-effects-cc/introduction-to-cinema-4d-lite/

prometheus
03-27-2014, 08:55 AM
that happened to me yesterday.
i was showing a graphic i did to my lead layout artist and he said,
"that look great, but what is the font size you are using? Change to one size smaller. Of course I was prepared and I had attached to a null all the text, after all this is not my first rodeo.
BUT I had to explain to my designer co worker that if he wanted to change things like "Font Style, Bold or Italics" he would have to come back in 10 minutes."
For non cg designers in the design world that is a deal breaker for an app.


Or say that I have client that come in with his company a Logo in a thumb drive.
it is saved in a vector format, say PDF.

for an upcoming event he would love to see me load it into the scene right in front of him and he only has 45 minutes to show me what he wants. (While I control the converted logo asset in LW)
The idea of having to wait an hour until I convert his vector Logo by hand would be preposterous to him.

I know that this sort of stuff is NOT sexy to demo in a tech show like SIGGRAPH.
But iti the kind of stuff that SELLS programs.
After all we designers are ALWAYS looking for the NEXT tool that will make our lives easier.


Having said that,
at work we LOOOOOVE the AE exchange tools in LW. we are using it a lot now.


Does it take 10 minutes to change font style ?
and 1 hour to do live import vector style or live trace in illustrator for example....yes it has it quirks but it sounds
Like you are exaggerating.

mummyman
03-27-2014, 09:14 AM
121024

I still use and love Hypervoxels. They still serve a great purpose...yes, they need some fixing.. but they can match basic surface geo just fine. This is from 3 years ago (appx) But I still use them all the time.

I'm loving this thread, though. Great, well-put ranting!

realgray
03-27-2014, 11:18 AM
AE / part of CC Cloud Ģ50 a month + Element 3D - 150$ - and you all set if it's the titling you're after...



Simon

Has exporting text ever become an option?

cresshead
03-27-2014, 11:53 AM
newtek should implement a goZ style plugin for lightwave to blender and back

50one
03-27-2014, 12:35 PM
To be fair blender is soo much better in some aspects.....the only part that LW is better is the nodal shading and renderer, although with cycles....man you got everything there, non-destructive workflow, modifiers, compositing, NLE, CA tools, fluid / smoke sim, dynamics....

prometheus
03-27-2014, 03:36 PM
121024

I still use and love Hypervoxels. They still serve a great purpose...yes, they need some fixing.. but they can match basic surface geo just fine. This is from 3 years ago (appx) But I still use them all the time.

I'm loving this thread, though. Great, well-put ranting!

Itīs all blobs and cells, that works...creme , coke liquids or blood flow or river flow
donīt cut it unfortunatly.

I liquid solver would go first before actually developing a fire and smoke solver, if the lightwave team hasnīt started to work on any of those already, it will take to long anyway I guess and a third party developer might be best to do it..like
jascha and turbulenceFD, though he said it might be possible to incorporate liquid fluids, it was sometime he said that and after some statements of how difficult it might be, we havenīt heard anything more about it for years.

Matching surface geo? what does that mean, you mean geometric surface matching? well it doesnīt, the realistic node materials need to be there.

prometheus
03-27-2014, 03:43 PM
not sure, maybe they should just skip upgrading Hypervoxels all together and jump directly to creating Fluids...?

http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20061218144311/conferences/images/3/36/Crystal_Clear_Splash.png

what u think...
Hypervoxels or Fluids... ?

For good sake, I donīt want no skipping of the updates of voxels, itīs completly different animals for different usage..first we have to make the distinction of the two categories of liquid and fire and smoke fluids, we allready got a decent tool for fire and smoke fluids and it has itīs special areas.

Hypervoxels volume mode is good for smoke trails and in some cases some explosive stuff, and for clouds for instance where you donīt want to mess with fluids, so for that reason we need updates of hypervoxels....basicly catching up and implement some stuff the lux team managed to implement in itīs first version of their voxel shader.

liquids would have to be a completly different animal, and it could of course use another shader instead of hypervoxels if they canīt get the distance between particles gradients in the hypervoxels blending mode.

But that shouldnīt exlude a continuous development of the the Old hypervoxels system, with new better blending for volume mode and better thickness contol,shadow maps, and full geometric surface voxel apliance rather than per vertices/particle appliance, open VDB
is something to look in too as well.

AbnRanger
03-27-2014, 09:16 PM
For good sake, I donīt want no skipping of the updates of voxels, itīs completly different animals for different usage..first we have to make the distinction of the two categories of liquid and fire and smoke fluids, we allready got a decent tool for fire and smoke fluids and it has itīs special areas.

Hypervoxels volume mode is good for smoke trails and in some cases some explosive stuff, and for clouds for instance where you donīt want to mess with fluids, so for that reason we need updates of hypervoxels....basicly catching up and implement some stuff the lux team managed to implement in itīs first version of their voxel shader.

liquids would have to be a completly different animal, and it could of course use another shader instead of hypervoxels if they canīt get the distance between particles gradients in the hypervoxels blending mode.

But that shouldnīt exlude a continuous development of the the Old hypervoxels system, with new better blending for volume mode and better thickness contol,shadow maps, and full geometric surface voxel apliance rather than per vertices/particle appliance, open VDB
is something to look in too as well.I don't know how feasible it would be, but if I were Rob, I would try to contact Chaos Group and ask about the prospect of licensing PhoenixFD (maybe exploring a VRay plugin for LW as well), as it has high-end Smoke, Fire and Fluids, all in the same toolset. Then sell it as Lgihtwave FX. Both together could make LW a very affordable VFX solution...especially with all the studio's that have been closing their doors. Don't tell me they aren't concerned with costs. Rob could sell the LW version for $2k+ and it would be a steal.

Magnetic Dreams bought had just a single seat of Max and FumeFX for all their Fire/Smoke sims....so, give studios a much cheaper option for solid VFX work and they'll come.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vaAQEolQRE

AbnRanger
03-27-2014, 09:17 PM
Here is the overview:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSjmASohkdw

prometheus
03-28-2014, 06:28 AM
I don't know how feasible it would be, but if I were Rob, I would try to contact Chaos Group and ask about the prospect of licensing PhoenixFD (maybe exploring a VRay plugin for LW as well), as it has high-end Smoke, Fire and Fluids, all in the same toolset. Then sell it as Lgihtwave FX. Both together could make LW a very affordable VFX solution...especially with all the studio's that have been closing their doors. Don't tell me they aren't concerned with costs. Rob could sell the LW version for $2k+ and it would be a steal.

Magnetic Dreams bought had just a single seat of Max and FumeFX for all their Fire/Smoke sims....so, give studios a much cheaper option for solid VFX work and they'll come.




donīt know about phoenix, fire and smoke looks better in turbulenceFD I think..at least from those samples, and the liquids arenīt that impressive in the looks from those samples..better than lightwave particles sure..but.
A question would be if liquids and fire can blend?

and for"Gods" sake ...we still would need an update of hypervoxels and not having it being an old.. under developed tool.

robertoortiz
03-28-2014, 06:53 AM
Does it take 10 minutes to change font style ?
and 1 hour to do live import vector style or live trace in illustrator for example....yes it has it quirks but it sounds
Like you are exaggerating.
Ok
Ill post some examples when I get to my office.

robertoortiz
03-28-2014, 06:57 AM
I don't know how feasible it would be, but if I were Rob, I would try to contact Chaos Group and ask about the prospect of licensing PhoenixFD (maybe exploring a VRay plugin for LW as well), as it has high-end Smoke, Fire and Fluids, all in the same toolset. Then sell it as Lgihtwave FX. Both together could make LW a very affordable VFX solution...especially with all the studio's that have been closing their doors. Don't tell me they aren't concerned with costs. Rob could sell the LW version for $2k+ and it would be a steal.

Magnetic Dreams bought had just a single seat of Max and FumeFX for all their Fire/Smoke sims....so, give studios a much cheaper option for solid VFX work and they'll come.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vaAQEolQRE
+!
This is a FANTASTIC idea. It benefits BOTH parties, because lets face it, Autodesk right now is treating the 3rd party vendor market like red headed step children.

prometheus
03-28-2014, 07:14 AM
Ok
Ill post some examples when I get to my office.

Donīt hurry, I will not be able to check it anyways for days, my laptop is only working in failsafe mode now:(

Im sure you have a point with this, but simply didnīt showcased it or described it well...maybe:)

Michael

lardbros
03-28-2014, 07:38 AM
There are examples of 3dsMax text tool, and aftereffects interoperability that are pretty impressive.

Create all the text in 3dsmax... bring it into AE, then edit the text in AE, and it also updates the text in 3dsMax. It's very cool. Also works the other way.

Not sure why Newtek haven't jumped on this kind of thing, but I'm guessing it's just not possible at the moment. Or pointless working on it, if it'll be replaced by new toolsets soon?!

djwaterman
03-28-2014, 08:04 AM
There are examples of 3dsMax text tool, and aftereffects interoperability that are pretty impressive.

Create all the text in 3dsmax... bring it into AE, then edit the text in AE, and it also updates the text in 3dsMax. It's very cool. Also works the other way.

Not sure why Newtek haven't jumped on this kind of thing, but I'm guessing it's just not possible at the moment. Or pointless working on it, if it'll be replaced by new toolsets soon?!

Where are those examples, it sounds hard to believe, I haven't had any luck finding this feature on Google searches.

lardbros
03-28-2014, 09:48 AM
It does sound hard to believe, and I've had a look on YouTube and can't find the videos I saw last year.
Hmmm... maybe the Autodesk preview got canned?

Will keep looking and post it if I find it!


Kept looking and can't find them anywhere!!!
The video was of motion graphics type stuff, and text being added vertically around a circle. He was going in and editing in 3dsMax, and it was updating in AE, and then did the same thing in AE and it, amazingly, updated in 3dsMax!!

I feel like I'm going mad, I can't find the video anywhere!!! :(

thomascheng
03-28-2014, 02:23 PM
They have TFD for Fire/Smoke and Realflow for Water. So LW is not in a deficit in those departments. What LW needs to do is provide a much better node based procedural particles system all interlinked with the bullet system. Its pretty well known that the best type of dynamics and FX related work comes with a good foundation of physics and procedural particles. Look at Houdini, Max's Thinking Particles, Max's Particle Flow. Maya particles system is pretty similar to LW and it's just old and cumbersome to manage and work with.

Before they work on a new fluid system, they need to write a new particle system. I hope that it is a cheap separate app like Chronosculpt, because I don't want it tied into the old LW architecture. Then use some kind of file interchange to bring the particles back into LW or some other app. Heck, build everything off Chronosculpt, give it texture painting, new particles, port the lightwave render engine into it and you got a decent app.

prometheus
03-28-2014, 03:52 PM
They have TFD for Fire/Smoke and Realflow for Water. So LW is not in a deficit in those departments. What LW needs to do is provide a much better node based procedural particles system all interlinked with the bullet system. Its pretty well known that the best type of dynamics and FX related work comes with a good foundation of physics and procedural particles. Look at Houdini, Max's Thinking Particles, Max's Particle Flow. Maya particles system is pretty similar to LW and it's just old and cumbersome to manage and work with.

Before they work on a new fluid system, they need to write a new particle system. I hope that it is a cheap separate app like Chronosculpt, because I don't want it tied into the old LW architecture. Then use some kind of file interchange to bring the particles back into LW or some other app. Heck, build everything off Chronosculpt, give it texture painting, new particles, port the lightwave render engine into it and you got a decent app.

Just as long as node architechture donīt slow things down in a simular way it does with deformation and some other connections in lightwave today, I believe it will just that unfortunatly.

robertoortiz
03-28-2014, 04:31 PM
Heck, build everything off Chronosculpt, give it texture painting, new particles, port the lightwave render engine into it and you got a decent app.



From your lips to God's ears.

thomascheng
03-28-2014, 08:33 PM
Just as long as node architechture donīt slow things down in a simular way it does with deformation and some other connections in lightwave today, I believe it will just that unfortunatly.

I agree, there shouldn't be any slowdown. But I don't think Lightwave was originally programmed in a modular way. So they have to bridge new components by building a bunch of tacked on code to get the information needed to work. They can't isolate a problem because it all interdependent on each other and will cause problems somewhere else. To truly be optimized, they would have to rebuild components by first reverse engineering what is currently there (good luck reading and deciphering all those lines of code), it's just easier to rebuild from scratch properly than to fix somebody's work ages ago. I really think that to compete with the other programs that's already modular and modern, they need to focus on their parallel change over program. Keep most of the popular lightwave interface where it makes sense (modeling, UV, animation), shift to nodes where it makes sense (particles, dynamics, materials and shading). Chronosculpt is a perfect showcase of the type of performance you can get and where the development team is with the parallel change over. I just wish they spend more time building the new lightwave up than patching the old one. Or whatever new tools they create should be included with LW Chrono.

I have a feeling that Autodesk is in the same position right now with 3DS Max. You can tell that they are including new code with the legacy code. Looking at the feature request list that they are exploring, it also looks like they are just about finish with their core rewrite and begin providing more features again.

geo_n
03-28-2014, 08:42 PM
http://pushingpoints.com/v2/pushing-points-toolkit-for-modo/

SubD Text - This script is designed to create subD text based on user input. Several options for text type are available.


Wonder if this script can be adapted to modeller. Modo and modeller share the same arhaic code anyway.

thomascheng
03-28-2014, 08:50 PM
http://pushingpoints.com/v2/pushing-points-toolkit-for-modo/

SubD Text - This script is designed to create subD text based on user input. Several options for text type are available.


Wonder if this script can be adapted to modeller. Modo and modeller share the same arhaic code anyway.


Most likely not since it is using the pipeline features in Modo, which shows they break each tool down to its smallest reusable modules and recombines them as a new tool. What they need to do is replace modeler with ChronoModeler, which should have new code to allow them to do that. It should also interface with Layout and eventually replace it into a single app.

cresshead
03-28-2014, 09:58 PM
+!
This is a FANTASTIC idea. It benefits BOTH parties, because lets face it, Autodesk right now is treating the 3rd party vendor market like red headed step children.


we we're just talking about autodesk and Vray tonight on a skype call!

Vray has THE best hands down renderer for interior/exterior...we took a look at the galleries from octane, Kray, vray, lightwave , modo etc and Vray looks stunning
now that Blender has Vray via free plugin to the stand alone Vray..it would be so cool to also have an option for Vray for lightwave, I've heard that vray is maybe coming to modo also
so vray might become the across the board renderer..available for all major 3d apps.

vncnt
03-29-2014, 01:14 AM
Great. Then NT can focus on animation.

50one
03-29-2014, 04:55 AM
http://pushingpoints.com/v2/pushing-points-toolkit-for-modo/

SubD Text - This script is designed to create subD text based on user input. Several options for text type are available.


Wonder if this script can be adapted to modeller. Modo and modeller share the same arhaic code anyway.

This is 'just' a script that inserts a pre-made shapes made by William into your scene, so no editing options. Probably something like this can be created for Lw, but who's gonna model all the letters in most popular typefaces?;)

hrgiger
03-29-2014, 05:47 AM
This is 'just' a script that inserts a pre-made shapes made by William into your scene, so no editing options. Probably something like this can be created for Lw, but who's gonna model all the letters in most popular typefaces?;)

yeah thats what i said when i saw this. This isnt any type of dynamically generated text, its premade text with a script to call up those letters from a dialog.

Julez4001
03-29-2014, 06:17 AM
Be great... if they just built separate apps (text generator, new particle system, hair shader, etc) floating outside of Lightwave with the new architecture and then in LW 13 unify them.
If you think about Maya ... all its best features and tools are separate plugins and apps anyway ... albeit BiFrost may cool down Realflow.

I like that everyone is trying to come up solutions instead of a whining fest. This could act like idea think tank that hopefully Rob and team will look at and piece together.

hrgiger
03-29-2014, 08:11 AM
Be great... if they just built separate apps (text generator, new particle system, hair shader, etc) floating outside of Lightwave with the new architecture and then in LW 13 unify them.
If you think about Maya ... all its best features and tools are separate plugins and apps anyway ... albeit BiFrost may cool down Realflow.

I like that everyone is trying to come up solutions instead of a whining fest. This could act like idea think tank that hopefully Rob and team will look at and piece together.

Well there have been countless threads like these that should have given Rob and team plenty of ideas. If they really need ideas at this point then they just havent been listening. But Rob has stated that they do listen to what is being said. We just have to wait to see the results.

jasonwestmas
03-29-2014, 08:52 AM
The perception I see from others is that they don't know what to do with Lightwave, Apart from rendering and some nice modeling options, it does everything in a mediocre fashion for a not so cheap price anymore. Some of the improvements LW has received recently are really nice but 7 years too late when compared to the competition. If I were to do any ranting it would be about the ambiguity of LW3DG's direction with Lightwave, which means there is no clear marketing strategy. A company like this can't compete with programs like maya so LW3DG needs to pick a fewer amount of customers and not try to please everyone at once. Bring to fruition some really powerful features. If this new direction isn't character or mograph or video game related then so be it but please don't tease me (and others) anymore with half baked tools. That's what I would rant about ;)

Heck further develop what LW has been used for traditionally which is a concepting bag of tools for archviz and previz for Video. There is no shame in that, pre-production people need really quick tools that help people visualize things more interactively.

Great move with Chronosculpt, it feels powerful an fresh enough to build new specialized tools on, I would put serious investment in that kind of technology.

robertoortiz
03-29-2014, 10:59 AM
I agree with Jason,
The access to the high end market is GONE.
Autodesk controls it lock stock and barrel.
And to be fair we were NEVER welcomed there.
But the irony is that if you guys have been keeping up with the news, that market is going to hell in a hand basket.

there are multiple OTHER markets Newtek can go into right now that are in Need of love.

Indie Gaming
3D Printing,
Arch Viz,
Motion Graphics
Virtual Sets I mean guys you got the freaking Tricaster, support it with your 3d Tool!

And there are also smaller studios that need a solution like LW.
EDIT
For
Motion Graphics
Virtual Sets
I would strongly suggest to to create closer ties with the Tricaster.
The Tricaster has a really good rep in production circles.
But it needs
Modern 3d Text Tools
Update to the virtual set technologies.
For text, Lightwave could implement a new text module that could share data with the Tricaster.
For the Virtual sets, it would be cool if users could "buffer" camera sets. For crying out loud, most users I know use either C4D to do live set or Photographs!

prometheus
03-29-2014, 11:36 AM
we we're just talking about autodesk and Vray tonight on a skype call!

Vray has THE best hands down renderer for interior/exterior...we took a look at the galleries from octane, Kray, vray, lightwave , modo etc and Vray looks stunning
now that Blender has Vray via free plugin to the stand alone Vray..it would be so cool to also have an option for Vray for lightwave, I've heard that vray is maybe coming to modo also
so vray might become the across the board renderer..available for all major 3d apps.

3d max and Vray are IKEA certified:)
they have had a few job ads out..looking for 3d artists, skillset of max and a good knowledge of Vray is required, there are so many images in the catalog now that is rendered using the max/vray combo.

Michael

jeric_synergy
03-29-2014, 11:37 AM
after reading Page ONE:

I agree w/the OP that PERCEPTION needs to change-- there are cool tools and solid productions/examples for LW, but they need to be trumpeted, CONSTANTLY. I know nothing about the LW3dG marketing force, but I think maybe they need to modernize their approach: the "one big thing a year" pushes are in the past, constant presence is the current paradigm.

Just as I wish for ONE STAFF POSITION dedicated to documentation issues (identifying them, correcting them, disseminating solutions), I'd hope for some knowledgable person to have a dedicated amount of time set aside for banging the drum for LW on a pretty much daily basis. An 'evangelist', if you will.

right now it seems rather ad hoc, with the users and various education producers doing the work, often uncompensated.

jeric_synergy
03-29-2014, 11:41 AM
At least Modo's text tools is on the same level as LW ;-)

HAH!!!! BURN! ::weeps::

hrgiger
03-29-2014, 01:28 PM
I agree with Jason,
The access to the high end market is GONE.
Autodesk controls it lock stock and barrel.
And to be fair we were NEVER welcomed there.
But the irony is that if you guys have been keeping up with the news, that market is going to hell in a hand basket.

there are multiple OTHER markets Newtek can go into right now that are in Need of love.
[B][COLOR="#FFA500"]
Indie Gaming
3D Printing,
Arch Viz

Well that seems a bit defeatist and gloomy. Just because AD dominates the high end market doesnt mean there isnt room or niches for other players. There are a lot of people, both individuals and small studios who probably cannot afford AD prices but still want access to high quality 3D tools. Im sure that a lot of XSI users right now wish there were more choices out there then just AD apps. If LightWave can advance its outdated workflows and architecture theres no reason it cant have a place in the market just like Modo is aiming to.

jasonwestmas
03-29-2014, 02:35 PM
Well the ability to sell quality toolsets to highend customers is not gone, not at all. Chronosculpt and LW Plugins (native or 3rd party) either sold separately or as a combo can become a winning set of tools for editing animated/simulated objects in general. Ultimately my point is that LW3DG has to continue to offer up unique solutions that the maya, max, SI people want to have. Will those types of users abandon the AD suite of tools completely for LW3DG tools this decade? Uhhh, well I just don't see that happening because of said number of things. And very few softimage users would find anything close to what they want in Lightwave. They're just totally different kinds of applications.

Megalodon2.0
03-29-2014, 03:42 PM
WIm sure that a lot of XSI users right now wish there were more choices out there then just AD apps. If LightWave can advance its outdated workflows and architecture theres no reason it cant have a place in the market just like Modo is aiming to.
Definitely agree.

JohnMarchant
03-29-2014, 03:46 PM
I agree with Jason,
The access to the high end market is GONE.
Autodesk controls it lock stock and barrel.
And to be fair we were NEVER welcomed there.
But the irony is that if you guys have been keeping up with the news, that market is going to hell in a hand basket.

there are multiple OTHER markets Newtek can go into right now that are in Need of love.

Indie Gaming
3D Printing,
Arch Viz,
Motion Graphics
Virtual Sets I mean guys you got the freaking Tricaster, support it with your 3d Tool!

And there are also smaller studios that need a solution like LW.
EDIT
For
Motion Graphics
Virtual Sets
I would strongly suggest to to create closer ties with the Tricaster.
The Tricaster has a really good rep in production circles.
But it needs
Modern 3d Text Tools
Update to the virtual set technologies.
For text, Lightwave could implement a new text module that could share data with the Tricaster.
For the Virtual sets, it would be cool if users could "buffer" camera sets. For crying out loud, most users I know use either C4D to do live set or Photographs!

Agreed the high end market has all but gone in movies, still quite a bit in TV work though.

vncnt
03-29-2014, 09:07 PM
But the irony is that if you guys have been keeping up with the news, that market is going to hell in a hand basket.
LW has always been targeted for general use. That created a certain tolerance for hypes in the industry and itīs one of the reasons LW is still alive.


I would strongly suggest to to create closer ties with the Tricaster.
Iīve written my own (LW-link) script for Vegas Pro as a datalink between NLE and LW. I think it demonstrates that an active link between these two types of applications has added value.

Why do Tricaster or SpeedEdit not have a datalink with LightWave?
Create LWS scenes on the NLE timeline. Open LW from that same timeline. Sync previews with the NLE-timeline. Exchange marker and regions between NLE and LW.

One of the problems I still see is that a lot of artwork is coming from individuals. Many times it shows in an unbalanced level of detail. Sometimes it is just missing honest feedback. Sometimes budget and/or time. And sometimes itīs missing the next step: strong animation.

Another problem is that story-driven industries in LW still have to deal with a timeline system that hasnīt changed in 15 years. A crude marker system. No range selection. No region management system. Without markers and regions it is very difficult to create order in the keys chaos.

Iīve written my own tool for this (Legato) but writing Lscripts also keeps me from animating.
Legato explores what to do with sets of markers and regions for hierarchy poses and animations: a library system, retiming, timebending, mixing/blending, transfer, renderranges.
And it has markers/regions that control the marker/regions of poses and animations (and underlying keys): storybeats and actions.
And more: auto-scaled graph view, pan/zoom preview range, four renderprofile presets, rendertime prediction and evaluation per renderprofile, render file status for all channels, f13 render (renders missing/zerosized files).
And soon: adaptive screamer controller, retargeting (to transfer poses/regions from library to non-compatible hierarchies - or apply motion capture of course).

Many tasks become easier with markers and regions.
They should be implemented a.s.a.p.
You donīt need to restructure the LW-core to make the LW timeline more story-driven - Legato didnīt absolutely need that.

If you want to support the generalist, enable him/her to apply general rules of story telling.
Not only on the LW timeline but also on the NLE timeline.
Because thatīs where the story is taking shape (and itīs a meeting point for potential new LW-users).

geo_n
03-29-2014, 09:27 PM
I agree with Jason,
The access to the high end market is GONE.
Autodesk controls it lock stock and barrel.
And to be fair we were NEVER welcomed there.
But the irony is that if you guys have been keeping up with the news, that market is going to hell in a hand basket.

there are multiple OTHER markets Newtek can go into right now that are in Need of love.

Indie Gaming
3D Printing,
Arch Viz,
Motion Graphics
Virtual Sets I mean guys you got the freaking Tricaster, support it with your 3d Tool!

And there are also smaller studios that need a solution like LW.
EDIT
For
Motion Graphics
Virtual Sets
I would strongly suggest to to create closer ties with the Tricaster.
The Tricaster has a really good rep in production circles.
But it needs
Modern 3d Text Tools
Update to the virtual set technologies.
For text, Lightwave could implement a new text module that could share data with the Tricaster.
For the Virtual sets, it would be cool if users could "buffer" camera sets. For crying out loud, most users I know use either C4D to do live set or Photographs!


Agree. A very smart former employer once said to me that you don't have to go after the big projects, huge budget, when there are more small profitable projects that people don't notice or would even bother.
He owns two mercs and owns a few homes. Definitely not the "poor artisan" that is very common in this industry.

thomascheng
03-31-2014, 06:52 AM
It don't believe the high end market is locked away. It will take a few years to change over, but it's not gone. It is definitely hard and the tools need to be much better for them to switch. Otherwise, the tools needs to be a addition to their current pipeline.

toeknee
03-31-2014, 09:52 AM
Hey roberto, Is your point about Lightwave and virtual sets about promotion or actual functional abilities. I am curious about how you are using this tool and what you are expecting from it. I create virtual set with Lightwave all the time and I am not really sure what is bothering you about there approach. I would totally agree that the text tool in Lightwave is sorely lacking; however, I have no problem with creating and using virtual sets at all.

robertoortiz
03-31-2014, 10:21 AM
Hey roberto, Is your point about Lightwave and virtual sets about promotion or actual functional abilities. I am curious about how you are using this tool and what you are expecting from it. I create virtual set with Lightwave all the time and I am not really sure what is bothering you about there approach. I would totally agree that the text tool in Lightwave is sorely lacking; however, I have no problem with creating and using virtual sets at all.

Well I am working in a virtual set RIGHT NOW for internal videos.
Our pipeline is Lightwave- After Effects.




I can create with no problems virtual sets. What I wshed it that LW treated Virtual sets more like REAL live sets.
AHve the ability to transmit back and forth camera data between LW and the camera.
If not, fake camera moves using Lightwave -> Tricaster.

djwaterman
03-31-2014, 10:23 AM
Actually I would like to see some promotion of virtual set making and how it is utilized for broadcast production, since the earliest days of Lightwave I've known about it but never seen a tutorial showing how it's done.

vncnt
03-31-2014, 02:01 PM
If this new direction isn't character or mograph or video game related then so be it but please don't tease me (and others) anymore with half baked tools.
To me this sounds like flying to the moon and JUST before the landing decide it is all useless and fly back to earth.

There are many improvements to be implemented that do not need that much of engineering at all.

In my opinion what NT/LW3DG needs to do is to cooperate with users to explore a practical approach to common bottlenecks.
Practical, as in quick & dirty. I donīt care what is under the hood as long as it works.

Many tools will do fine when operating slightly too slow or have a bigger filesize caused by inefficient programming.
And if not, when a tools proves to be interesting you can always refine it.

If I can add, as an amateur scripter - not as a professional programmer, more than 25 new functions in Legato for Lightwave that are extremely functional to me, then why is it so hard to do that in a professional environment? Relative simple functions that I (and many others) have been asking for, at least for 15 years now.

Simple concepts for simple users like me: a graph view that doesnīt need a change in settings every 2 minutes but is always giving a hint of what is going on in the "active tool"-channels AND always in sync with the timeline (hence the forced window layout), renderprofiles, multiple render ranges, estimated rendertime prediction per renderprofile, a pose & motion library (internal and external) that is easy to access and modify, meta management of an animation (separate markers/regions for story related issues and animation related issues), reuse of motion in non-compatible hierarchies, (hierarchy) hold pose with TCB defaults, a network render controller that is actually controlling every step of the process and optimizing for a result that I want right now: high priority on first/middle/last/spread frames in the scene and: repair crashed cpuīs and welcome new cpuīs while rendering and spreading workload among cpuīs after determining their relative capabilities, f13 rendering to render missing frames and frames with zero sized output files in all buffer channels, quick playback of library poses/motions, pingpong playback, timeline pan/zoom using a mouse, hierarchy timebender (dragging a middle marker on the timeline to change timing feels like changing the gamma of an image) on keys and on blocks, destructive/non-destructive NLA-style editing incl. fade and blendlevels, hierarchy keys delete/move/clone/stretch (hierarchy retimer incl. negative projection), morph mixer assistant, schematic view organizer, etc, etc.

Wrong focus?

By whom?
I should be animating, not inventing stuf.

jasonwestmas
03-31-2014, 04:00 PM
mhmm, I'm not so sure on how complex it is to make the necessary improvements. . . I mean a lot of little things can add up really quickly and become a huge chore. An even larger chore if Newtek's main goal was to add as many features as possible without really thinking about how user friendly they were. That was the past but I just think historically Newtek has not been too fond on knocking things out of the park and scoring a home run with a smaller section of lightwave. I'm not saying their methodology here is completely wrong just that at some time within the past 5-7 years I would have expected someone to make the decision to really refine smaller sections of lightwave to make them stand out a lot more.

paulhart
03-31-2014, 04:18 PM
There are multiple OTHER markets Newtek can go into right now that are in Need of love.

Indie Gaming
3D Printing,
Arch Viz,
Motion Graphics
Virtual Sets

One other area that needs mentioning in this list is NPR graphics, (Non-Photo Realistic Rendering) which can contribute to Indie Gaming, Arch Viz, Anime and Comics, as well as Animation (Think, Ernest and Celestine, Possession, (featured on Lightwave gallery, and recently up for Emmy nod) etc.) A number of studies have hacked together a pipeline with Lightwave for this kind of work, but it needs a more integrated solution. C4D has dedicated third party, as does Maya, both of which are too costly for smaller studios. Integrate UnRealXtreme, with on screen preview, and tweak the Nodal tools for more artistic watercolor effects, BAM!, a whole series of markets and studios jump on board. Hasn't anyone here seen Tekkonkinkreet (XSI) or Illusionist (Chomet, XSI), or Paperman (PIXAR, in-house) or tools like finalTOON (Cebas, 3DSMax), ... sorry ... /rant

vncnt
04-01-2014, 12:30 AM
mhmm, I'm not so sure on how complex it is to make the necessary improvements. . . I mean a lot of little things can add up really quickly and become a huge chore. An even larger chore if Newtek's main goal was to add as many features as possible without really thinking about how user friendly they were.Legato started with a timeline plus markers and regions.
Applications of markers and regions developed from there.
Some applications at the same time because of common dependency, and others much later in the process.

When I got more control over interaction with the graphical part, the non-marker related features started to grow. For example the (slightly) interactive output file chart, or the interactive cpu chart (that part has not yet been published), or the interactive retargeting chart (still under development).

But it helps if an architect is focused on one single area and finds solutions to challenges on his/her path.


That was the past but I just think historically Newtek has not been too fond on knocking things out of the park and scoring a home run with a smaller section of lightwave. I'm not saying their methodology here is completely wrong just that at some time within the past 5-7 years I would have expected someone to make the decision to really refine smaller sections of lightwave to make them stand out a lot more.
I have a problem with the development of bridges to other applications: I do not own many of them.
And for my own programs they are useless.
I donīt know if the invested development time for those bridges creates a better 3D program on the long run.

For daily use I prefer to have a timeline system that does exactly what I need.
From my point of view, that would be the best investment and it would attract a different kind of LW-users.

One single step is not enough. There are many more to come.
But as long as you follow the right direction itīs worth it.

I do hope that Legato is guiding the right person in the right direction.

JohnMarchant
04-01-2014, 01:25 AM
It is Vincent and your work on our behalf is fantastic and long may independent developers like you continue. I can think of several minds that i would like NT to talk to more closely on ways ahead and new tools. Yourself, Denis Pontonnier, Viktor at LWCAD, Mike Green, 3rdPowers, Pawel Olas, Sensei, DStorm. There are many more but i believe these people and ideas can help in the way ahead for NT.

Of course maybe many of these wont want to be tied to NT but at least they can try and if nothing else pick their brains a bit.

jasonwestmas
04-01-2014, 05:02 PM
I have a problem with the development of bridges to other applications: I do not own many of them.
And for my own programs they are useless.
I donīt know if the invested development time for those bridges creates a better 3D program on the long run.

For daily use I prefer to have a timeline system that does exactly what I need.
From my point of view, that would be the best investment and it would attract a different kind of LW-users.

One single step is not enough. There are many more to come.
But as long as you follow the right direction itīs worth it.

I do hope that Legato is guiding the right person in the right direction.

I think it's good for maya/Lightwave houses to have the tools that bring the two apps together. From what I've seen, I believe the point cache and valkyrie interchange tools allow maya animators to work on the same project as lightwave people. So in a way it's a matter of supply and demand for maya creature animations to be rendered with a very popular TV rendering package called Lightwave. Two sets of powerful tool-sets (one for creature animation and the other for overall rendering) that met a specific budget, visual STYLE appeal and a utilized a specific type of skill sets. So I think some studios really had the demand for such interchange tools even though it's not for everyone.

On the other hand it makes absolutely no sense to promote lightwave as a stand alone character/creature animation package when many core features for character/creature animation remain unchange since Lightwave 5. Odd priorities I'd say when the marketing doesn't actually reflect the development. Which goes back to my original comment "stop teasing us Newtek" ;)

jeric_synergy
04-01-2014, 07:31 PM
Jasonwestmas: my guess is that they are addressing CA issues via the major add-ons: Genoma and Neveronymegamotionwidget, or whatever it's called. That is, I believe that's the strategy.

vncnt
04-02-2014, 12:28 AM
Jasonwestmas: my guess is that they are addressing CA issues via the major add-ons: Genoma and Neveronymegamotionwidget, or whatever it's called. That is, I believe that's the strategy.

Genoma is for character setup. Works very nice but it needs facial parts too.

Nevronmotion is for motion retargeting. Letīs say it is a different way of animating. Some even whisper itīs cheating. The result is a different style. A style that Iīm not persuing.

Legato was (!) intended for traditional animation. It attempts to make the bunch of keys more manageable by adding reference point that control the keys directly (the markers/regions in the lower window area: poses and animations) and by adding reference points that control the reference points (the markers/regions in the upper window area: storybeats and actions). These reference points are based on traditional story telling techniques.
And Legato was intended for animatics. By reusing poses/animations/storybeats/actions and apply them in a NLE style fashion.
Then Legato was also intended for deadline assistent, farm assistent and then for dynamic render controller.
And finally Legato is also intended for motion retargeting. This is needed because animation from the library can currently only be applied to a compatible hierarchy. For now, and in general, it seems to be the same problem area that Nevronmotion solves.

The last two areas (dynamic render controller and motion retargeting) are currently in development but I do not expect major bottlenecks.

For me, all these features are extremely nice additions to Layout but itīs the traditional animation and animatics areas that are most important to me. They are the final missing bridge to a smooth running production.

That is my strategy.

jasonwestmas
04-03-2014, 05:41 AM
Jasonwestmas: my guess is that they are addressing CA issues via the major add-ons: Genoma and Neveronymegamotionwidget, or whatever it's called. That is, I believe that's the strategy.

See I'm not seeing a strategy there with those addons, I just see more top heavy addons where the foundation is still the same for animation/ deformation workflow. . . weak.

Surrealist.
04-03-2014, 06:22 AM
For LightWave I think the one thing that would turn some heads would be to see some new technology inserted into LightWave. If there were to be an introduction of a new tech that gets branded somehow as LightWave - now with "Brand X" technology. And it it has some kind of cool new functionality that sets it apart and also makes LightWave an attractive addition to a pipeline, it would be a start in the right direction and could lay the groundwork for further additions and enhancements. If they could pull that off I think it would change the perception and allow them to continue to develop within that new framework.

Oedo 808
04-03-2014, 09:18 AM
LightWave 12 - Now with CORE Technology!!

jwiede
04-03-2014, 12:36 PM
LightWave 12 - Now with CORE Technology!!

Ugh. Been there, done that, and yes, I have the t-shirt (it too is falling apart).

On a more serious note, most of the "big" render engines have already added or publicly announced they are adding direct rendering support for OpenSubDiv/Pixar P-subs. LW's CC sub-d's aren't "good enough" anymore, and lack of actual OpenSubDiv/Pixar P-Sub support is increasingly marginalizing LW. For LW's competitive sake, I really hope LW12 includes OpenSubDiv technology/support.

allabulle
04-04-2014, 05:08 AM
Ptex wouldn't hurt either.

Oedo 808
04-05-2014, 08:06 AM
Ugh. Been there, done that, and yes, I have the t-shirt (it too is falling apart).

Ahh, but is it just Core Technology or would you be happy to see:


LightWave - now with "Brand X" technology.

My Core t-shirt is still going pretty strong, but I suppose I could add a Brand X one for variety.

prometheus
04-05-2014, 10:03 AM
Ahh, but is it just Core Technology or would you be happy to see:



My Core t-shirt is still going pretty strong, but I suppose I could add a Brand X one for variety.

my core t-shirt never arrived,not sure if you had to sign up some extra for it or something?

JohnMarchant
04-05-2014, 10:25 AM
Same here prometheus, never got it at all. Also that members card or whatever it was.

Oedo 808
04-05-2014, 10:55 AM
my core t-shirt never arrived,not sure if you had to sign up some extra for it or something?

That's too much of a test for my memory, did you send an email giving your size? Can't remember if you needed to add the address in that one too.

Although having said that didn't they send out a LW10 hard copy with 3D 'Glasses'? I never got that, though later someone from NT did see my post about it and contacted me, but I didn't feel it was worth the hassle.

I was still smarting over LightWave 10 and had been annoyed that I didn't get the best bit, but by that time it hardly seemed worth it.

VirtualFM
04-08-2014, 04:58 PM
Does it take 10 minutes to change font style ?
and 1 hour to do live import vector style or live trace in illustrator for example....yes it has it quirks but it sounds
Like you are exaggerating.

Well... I don't see where the exaggeration is!
One of these day I had a client which wanted some rotating letters/numbers. They had to be in a recognizable font style, but smooth and roundish. Typing the text and start extruding and beveling was a matter of minutes, sure, but then the bevels were never getting good enough and since they wanted a round look, I would have to make a LOT of bevels, and each of which would lead to drag-point-fixing. I also tried the new "chanfer" tool. which gave similar results to bevel but much worse in some letters. And please, don't mention "Rounder", becasue with "Rounder2 we either stick with whatever it might do or it will create a nightmare of editing problems on those corners.

So I did the wise thing (or so I thought) of making all the letters into "Subdivision Sufaceable mode", which meant dividing each letter plane into quads, and some tris (as few as possible). This meant there was no easy fix (an easy fix would be to triangulate all, then use MergeTrigonsX or uTriForth or something like that), so I had to painstainkingly subdivide each poly, cleaning up a bunch of extra points in round curves like "t", "s" and "0" obviously. But finally, I got subdiv-firendly letters, so I just pressed "TAB", extruded, added some bands with bandsaw to reach the perfect roundness look that I could never achieve with bevels or whatever. This took some hours.

The client loved it.

2 days later the client called me and asked if it wouldn't be better to use another font he liked in a brochure.

So, if there is the need to sacrifice a goat to the "new editable text subdivison-sufaceable-friendly" tool, I will find the goat and nourish it until the text-tool-Gods are pleased.

prometheus
04-08-2014, 06:45 PM
That's too much of a test for my memory, did you send an email giving your size? Can't remember if you needed to add the address in that one too.

Although having said that didn't they send out a LW10 hard copy with 3D 'Glasses'? I never got that, though later someone from NT did see my post about it and contacted me, but I didn't feel it was worth the hassle.

I was still smarting over LightWave 10 and had been annoyed that I didn't get the best bit, but by that time it hardly seemed worth it.

Nope..I could very well have missed some required information..not sure.
I did get a nice hardcopy in a nice lighwave 10 cover and those wreckable paper 3d glasses:)


Well... I don't see where the exaggeration is!
One of these day I had a client which wanted some rotating letters/numbers. They had to be in a recognizable font style, but smooth and roundish. Typing the text and start extruding and beveling was a matter of minutes, sure, but then the bevels were never getting good enough and since they wanted a round look, I would have to make a LOT of bevels, and each of which would lead to drag-point-fixing. I also tried the new "chanfer" tool. which gave similar results to bevel but much worse in some letters. And please, don't mention "Rounder", becasue with "Rounder2 we either stick with whatever it might do or it will create a nightmare of editing problems on those corners.

So I did the wise thing (or so I thought) of making all the letters into "Subdivision Sufaceable mode", which meant dividing each letter plane into quads, and some tris (as few as possible). This meant there was no easy fix (an easy fix would be to triangulate all, then use MergeTrigonsX or uTriForth or something like that), so I had to painstainkingly subdivide each poly, cleaning up a bunch of extra points in round curves like "t", "s" and "0" obviously. But finally, I got subdiv-firendly letters, so I just pressed "TAB", extruded, added some bands with bandsaw to reach the perfect roundness look that I could never achieve with bevels or whatever. This took some hours.

The client loved it.

2 days later the client called me and asked if it wouldn't be better to use another font he liked in a brochure.

So, if there is the need to sacrifice a goat to the "new editable text subdivison-sufaceable-friendly" tool, I will find the goat and nourish it until the text-tool-Gods are pleased.

I understand fully, I too want new better text tool, from nice subdiv text and all dynamic parametric changable...it was more a question of me reacting to the description which wasnīt as full as it should be in terms of describing the issues.

Taro Yoshimoto
04-09-2014, 03:34 PM
Mograph > CA for success. C4D and Videocopilot have proven it. As a first step I would make the animation timeline more similar to AE. No 3D apps have it and it would be an instant success. (layers for each objects, with In and Out linked to object visibility. All motion properties easily available in a arrow-down.) You need to make the AE crowd confortable.

Rayek
04-09-2014, 04:46 PM
Mograph > CA for success. C4D and Videocopilot have proven it. As a first step I would make the animation timeline more similar to AE. No 3D apps have it and it would be an instant success. (layers for each objects, with In and Out linked to object visibility. All motion properties easily available in a arrow-down.) You need to make the AE crowd confortable.

For the love of the Gods - No, please NO: AE's time line and especially the graph editor is hell on earth to spend time in.

Tiny and finicky controls, combined positional property channels (requires an effect to separate the x,y, and z channels in the graph editor, which is incredibly STUPID because now you have two different positional controls, and the xyz effect does not display properly in the view), with more than a couple of layers things become more confusing with dozens of tiny properties twirled open in your time line. No simple way to just display the layers in the timeline of the selected objects in the view (as far as I know)... No way to zoom the controls or icons... Awkward zooming and panning controls...
No blending of animation channels (non linear animation), etcetera.

The list goes on and on.

No thanks. AE's timeline and graph editor are horrible to work with, in my opinion.

geo_n
04-09-2014, 06:06 PM
No thanks. AE's timeline and graph editor are horrible to work with, in my opinion.

Agree. Even though I'm pro adobe, the ge and timeline in AE is not a good basis to copy from. Its clunky, looks ugly and gui needs updating.
Copy from somewhere else.

Taro Yoshimoto
04-10-2014, 01:24 PM
I dont mean to make the properties and graph editor same as AE, but have a Layers view, with in and out handles, and access to important properties right under the layer (customizable would be great but POS, ROT, SCALE, Object Dissolve would be a great start.). Actually LW graph editor is quite bad. Try to ease and out on a bunch of keys with precise velocity control. AE can do it in seconds, LW in minutes. Ease in and out in LW need some automatizing love.

Still, there's a lot more AE users than 3D users. You need to make the interface familiar and logical if you want to score with the user base.

It's not easy in LW to copy a bunch of keys and settings from one object to another. That need to be fixed.

jeric_synergy
04-11-2014, 12:42 AM
It's not easy in LW to copy a bunch of keys and settings from one object to another. That need to be fixed.
I'd see more utility for this facility if LW were more mograph capable.

Taro Yoshimoto
04-11-2014, 07:56 AM
Some people (me) are actually making Mograph with LW. It's not as convenient for cloning and simulating as C4D but there is certain qualities of LW that are fit for the job. LW fast GI renders, VPN, Dpond part node, easy modeler.

jeric_synergy
04-11-2014, 04:29 PM
Some people (me) are actually making Mograph with LW. It's not as convenient for cloning and simulating as C4D but there is certain qualities of LW that are fit for the job. LW fast GI renders, VPN, Dpond part node, easy modeler.
Please contact LW3dG Marketing ASAP.

robertoortiz
04-12-2014, 09:38 AM
Please contact LW3dG Marketing ASAP.
Agreed.
There ae so many cool 3rd party solutions for "gaps" in Lightwave. I wish there was a way for Newtek either coordinate with these developers, license their tools, or help them selling them within the app.