PDA

View Full Version : Adobe reports lowest net profit yet for Q1 2014...



Rayek
03-21-2014, 02:13 AM
...and yet stocks soar. It really is a crazy biz world!

http://cdn.static-economist.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/original-size/images/print-edition/20140322_WBC548.png

Also, Full CC licenses have dropped from 76% to 70%.

http://www.economist.com/news/business/21599370-adobes-bold-embrace-computing-cloud-should-inspire-others-super-subs?fsrc=rss|bus

For the first time Adobe's subscriptions earnings outranked perpetual licenses. Yet profits are down.


Only 1,290 ths (70%) of their actual 1,844 ths cloud users are full paying - rest are users of single products (photoshopers with discounts ?)
That means: They only added less than 200,000 new full (product) paying users through the last Quarter (76% of 1,439 = 1,093).
Trend of quarterly added full paid subscriptions: already downwards.
Most of these users are caught by discounts for years (Enterprises between 2-3 years).
(They had 12 Million users of perpetual licenses before the CashCow desaster...!)

So, indeed: Adobe really saving money?


http://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/378/7126

Megalodon2.0
03-21-2014, 11:39 AM
For the first time Adobe's subscriptions earnings outranked perpetual licenses. Yet profits are down.

But that's not surprising at all. On the Adobe forums, many have said that Adobe will not get any more money from them, so WHY would anyone buy CS6 knowing it won't be developed AND knowing that Adobe will only use that money for CC? I'm not surprised at all that perpetual license sales are WAY down.

All we need is another downturn and then Adobe will see their profits begin to seriously shrink - and people will again seriously look at perpetual licenses from OTHER vendors.

raymondtrace
03-21-2014, 01:40 PM
I'm amused by the drop in profits but there is more to the numbers. Profits will trend upward as Adobe continues to rid itself of the expense of supporting perpetual license sales. I don't recall one of their mass layoffs since they went to CC. They are due for one.

Adobe will sell more subscriptions as operating systems will evolve and make older perpetual licensed software obsolete.

But I am irritated by this baloney...

The article's author does not understand that Adobe does not need to deliver any additional value if they already have you locked in a subscription to proprietary SaaS technology.


Some Creative Cloud users fret that Adobe has deliberately kept subscription prices low to tempt people online and will raise them sharply when it unveils new features in the coming months. Mr Narayen does not rule out price rises, but he says Adobe will have to deliver more value to justify them.

That's CEO talk for "we already decided to raise prices but we're working with the marketing department to spin this as a good thing."

Rayek
03-21-2014, 02:11 PM
One of the issues, however, is the increase in pressure on Adobe support. Looking at the Adobe forums, their FB pages, and based on other sources on the web a large chunk of CC users are just not that happy anymore due to abysmal support. The Adobe forums are riddled with basic support questions nowadays - a complete turnaround compared to a year ago.

And for the first time we have proof that Adobe's original estimates from last year are plain wrong (in a bad way) when compared to the actual 2014 first quarter figures (compare to the original graph I posted):

http://i1.creativecow.net/u/259662/revenue.jpg

At least, for now. We'll have to see how the rest of the year pans out. They will have to return to the original pricing at some point this year now.

Megalodon2.0
03-21-2014, 02:17 PM
I'm amused by the drop in profits but there is more to the numbers. Profits will trend upward as Adobe continues to rid itself of the expense of supporting perpetual license sales. I don't recall one of their mass layoffs since they went to CC. They are due for one.

What expenses?

They aren't printing more copies and are only using downloads now for new perpetual licenses. Support is all lumped into one big disaster as Rayek states and we have all seen. And PL sales have been declining so what expenses are you talking about. Not being nasty or sarcastic, I just don't see these expenses.

hrgiger
03-21-2014, 02:32 PM
None of this seems unexpected to me and investors still seem to be pretty happy with Adobe. They understand that going subscription only drops revenue in the short term but it also provides for a steady and predictable cash flow and subscription numbers are still climbing even if they're not where predictions said they would be by now. Of course the stock price is rising, why wouldn't it be? They know that people are locked into a subscription and subscription numbers are still going up so the revenue will be even more next month and presumably the month after that. Of course that's subscription revenue that's climbing, it will take a while for that to balance out and overtake the perpetual license revenue they're losing.

Megalodon2.0
03-21-2014, 03:43 PM
None of this seems unexpected to me and investors still seem to be pretty happy with Adobe. They understand that going subscription only drops revenue in the short term but it also provides for a steady and predictable cash flow and subscription numbers are still climbing even if they're not where predictions said they would be by now. Of course the stock price is rising, why wouldn't it be? They know that people are locked into a subscription and subscription numbers are still going up so the revenue will be even more next month and presumably the month after that. Of course that's subscription revenue that's climbing, it will take a while for that to balance out and overtake the perpetual license revenue they're losing.

The stock price is rising because Adobe is telling its investors that subscriptions ARE rising. What they have failed to explain is the fact that these subscriptions are not at their full anticipated price, but low pricing and special sales like the one I mentioned at $9.99. And it also appears that full subscription numbers have fallen.

We'll just have to see how it goes. After listening to those of the Adobe forums and on FB, it seems that many are still holding out and many are still angry at Adobe. It doesn't affect me any more because I won't be buying into Adobe - there's enough alternatives that I'll not be needing Adobe. Fortunately... many also feel the same and I would LOVE to see Adobe have to back pedal and address customer issues. ;)

Rayek
03-21-2014, 03:51 PM
At this point, even IF Adobe back paddles on the CC subsciption model, I would not be interested in returning to Adobe software. The alternatives I use just work BETTER than what Adobe has on offer for what I need in my work (and hobby).

Besides, the 3d industry keeps evolving, and with products like Substance Designer/Painter, Mari, 3dCoat and even Blender's painting capabilities improving, why bother with Photoshop (for example) at this point? It's not as if Adobe has added anything 3d-related in the last couple of years that can compete with more specialized software (at all).

spherical
03-21-2014, 04:41 PM
Lies, damn lies and statistics. Here's a major underlying reason that their stock is rising while profits are dropping. Compare this with the first graph:

120930

Rayek
03-21-2014, 04:59 PM
Lies, damn lies and statistics. Here's a major underlying reason that their stock is rising while profits are dropping. Compare this with the first graph:

120930

So it has nothing to do investors' trust or whatever - the overall market is improving, and Adobe is there for the (free) ride?

Megalodon2.0
03-21-2014, 05:24 PM
Lies, damn lies and statistics. Here's a major underlying reason that their stock is rising while profits are dropping.


So it has nothing to do investors' trust or whatever - the overall market is improving, and Adobe is there for the (free) ride?

While the market in general IS improving, I think that the stock rise is primarily because Adobe keeps painting the rosy picture that they will have a steady income stream. Perhaps investors would rather have stability - even if the profits are not as high - as opposed to the 18 month swing they've been used to.

http://www.economist.com/news/business/21599370-adobes-bold-embrace-computing-cloud-should-inspire-others-super-subs?fsrc=rss|bus

"Subscriptions tend to provide a more predictable source of revenue, which is why investors like them. Under its previous strategy, Adobe revamped its packaged software every 18 months or so, which meant it was vulnerable to a sharp drop in revenue if customers shunned an update. Now it can tweak its products far more frequently online, with users barely noticing, thereby greatly reducing the risk of a sudden slump in turnover."

spherical
03-21-2014, 06:32 PM
Well, if you stretch the first image to the same aspect ratio, the two curves look pretty much the same. Not saying that Adobe isn't skewing what they tell their shareholders, by any means, but it's pretty telling. The quote pretty much translates to: "Pull the wool over the customer's eyes.", so they're doing it on both ends.

hrgiger
03-21-2014, 06:50 PM
The stock price is rising because Adobe is telling its investors that subscriptions ARE rising. What they have failed to explain is the fact that these subscriptions are not at their full anticipated price, but low pricing and special sales like the one I mentioned at $9.99. And it also appears that full subscription numbers have fallen.

I know you would be happy to see Adobe fail but I'm not sure where you're getting the impression that subscription numbers have fallen. Subscription numbers are up almost half a million since the end of last year. http://petapixel.com/2014/03/21/adobes-q1-numbers-show-creative-cloud-success-whether-like/



We'll just have to see how it goes. After listening to those of the Adobe forums and on FB, it seems that many are still holding out and many are still angry at Adobe. It doesn't affect me any more because I won't be buying into Adobe - there's enough alternatives that I'll not be needing Adobe. Fortunately... many also feel the same and I would LOVE to see Adobe have to back pedal and address customer issues. ;)

You mean like all the anger at Autodesk currently on the forums and on FB? A number of people being angry at a company doesn't equate to a fail.

Megalodon2.0
03-21-2014, 07:40 PM
I know you would be happy to see Adobe fail but I'm not sure where you're getting the impression that subscription numbers have fallen. Subscription numbers are up almost half a million since the end of last year. http://petapixel.com/2014/03/21/adobes-q1-numbers-show-creative-cloud-success-whether-like/
How would you like to bet that the VAST majority of those subscriptions are single apps or the relatively recent $9.99 PS & LR subs?

And yes, I would be VERY happy to see Adobe fail. And for te life of me, I can't see why you and most everyone else wouldn't. Do you want to subscribe to ALL of your software? Do you want to HAVE to pay to open your files? That's where it's heading.


You mean like all the anger at Autodesk currently on the forums and on FB? A number of people being angry at a company doesn't equate to a fail.

Maybe not. But AD will drive many of it's paying XSI customers to other apps like Houdini. And I think that will be a good thing. ;)

m.d.
03-21-2014, 09:09 PM
I look at this from a business standpoint.....

I have had the adobe suite since CS3...upgraded everytime...

I kicked and screamed when the subscription model first came out....but I have paid less for my subscription then my upgrades this year....and there were at least 2 major upgrades this cycle.


The beauty of the whole thing for a small business, is when I have to hire another editor for a big job....it's $50 a month for the whole suite. I hire a freelancer for a month and at the end of the month I only paid $50 for use of the entire suite.
If I take a few months off in the summer....i can let the subscription go for a few months..save $100

By no means do I agree with this model....especially never owning your software...

But in all practical sense...it has saved me money this year, and the bottom line is what counts....I am not going to fight an idealogical war over something no one is forcing me to comply with.
That and the constant upgrades have been great.

spherical
03-21-2014, 10:30 PM
For people who have temp employees, this is great, I agree. Same goes for the touted "greatness" of the AD model. For one and two man bands, that have enjoyed previously stable, even substantial, income streams (prior to the hosing that the banks and their cohorts all gave everyone—save for a choice few—and no one went to jail), since 2008 have been kicked in the teeth, a Perpetual License is all that saved their business and stood between working and being out in the street. If they had to fork out every month for tool rental, just to keep moving, some months they would not have been able to produce and honorably dig themselves out over time.

It isn't that Rental/Subscription is inherently bad (although there's room for debate), it is that when it is demanded as the only way to go that is the issue at hand. This is not customer-centric and that is largely the problem lately. "Screw the client. We call the shots!" is not how a healthy market is driven. Pendulums do swing and I hope that this one has a nice curved knife honed to the level of a scalpel on it when it comes back.

Megalodon2.0
03-21-2014, 11:38 PM
For people who have temp employees, this is great, I agree. Same goes for the touted "greatness" of the AD model. For one and two man bands, that have enjoyed previously stable, even substantial, income streams (prior to the hosing that the banks and their cohorts all gave everyone—save for a choice few—and no one went to jail), since 2008 have been kicked in the teeth, a Perpetual License is all that saved their business and stood between working and being out in the street. If they had to fork out every month for tool rental, just to keep moving, some months they would not have been able to produce and honorably dig themselves out over time.
This is precisely what would have happened to us had we been on this model during this recession. We barely had two pennies to rub together but STILL had clients who wanted a file or two adjusted - this would have been more expensive paying subscription than using our perpetual license. People apparently don't yet understand what CAN happen with this "forced" model. We WILL have another recession and everyone who is on subscription better hope that you aren't greatly affected. We work with the new housing industry and this recession KILLED us.


It isn't that Rental/Subscription is inherently bad (although there's room for debate), it is that when it is demanded as the only way to go that is the issue at hand. This is not customer-centric and that is largely the problem lately. "Screw the client. We call the shots!" is not how a healthy market is driven. Pendulums do swing and I hope that this one has a nice curved knife honed to the level of a scalpel on it when it comes back.
Exactly! No one had a problem with subscription when it was offered ALONGSIDE perpetual licenses. Only when that choice was removed did the uproar begin.

Well... another downturn will tell just how well this system will work for everyone. ;)

hrgiger
03-22-2014, 02:59 AM
How would you like to bet that the VAST majority of those subscriptions are single apps or the relatively recent $9.99 PS & LR subs?

And yes, I would be VERY happy to see Adobe fail. And for te life of me, I can't see why you and most everyone else wouldn't. Do you want to subscribe to ALL of your software? Do you want to HAVE to pay to open your files? That's where it's heading.

You can bet all you want, but you have no idea what types of subscriptions people are buying. And I don't know how many times I have to say it...people, myself included, buy what works for them at the time. Along with my other software, I could never afford to buy the creative suite perpetual license outright but I can afford a monthly payment. Just like I typically cannot afford to buy a new car outright but monthly payments work fine for me. Sorry but renting software makes sense for some people and it allows access to software that they never would have had otherwise. I understand you're not happy with this rental only model but really stop assuming that everyone else should feel the same way. I would rather they offer the option but they don't so it is what it is. Use it or not.




Maybe not. But AD will drive many of it's paying XSI customers to other apps like Houdini. And I think that will be a good thing. ;)

Except that in terms of their overall business, the hit will be practically insignificant to them and AD will still be the industry leader when most will be using Maya. Adobe is not in a dissimilar position.

Megalodon2.0
03-22-2014, 12:01 PM
You can bet all you want, but you have no idea what types of subscriptions people are buying. And I don't know how many times I have to say it...people, myself included, buy what works for them at the time. Along with my other software, I could never afford to buy the creative suite perpetual license outright but I can afford a monthly payment. Just like I typically cannot afford to buy a new car outright but monthly payments work fine for me. Sorry but renting software makes sense for some people and it allows access to software that they never would have had otherwise. I understand you're not happy with this rental only model but really stop assuming that everyone else should feel the same way. I would rather they offer the option but they don't so it is what it is. Use it or not.
Don't give me that car analogy. At the end of PAYMENTS you OWN the car. Come on HR, we're not stupid here. And I don't know if you use Adobe products in a business, but we do. if you can't AFFORD to buy a suite, then you SAVE your money for when you can afford it. That's what people used to do you know. And even though my Production Premium suite is old, I can still sell it - something that you can't do with subscription.

We've been all through this before and neither one of us will change our minds. If you're a small business owner like myself and need these files for your livelihood, then one day you will find out WHEN the next recession hits and you can't afford to keep up subscription. As I recall though, you don't use Premiere or AE so it wouldn't affect you as much - but it certainly will other people who own small businesses. Then I can't wait to hear the wailing when they have to stop their subscription and can't open their files and then see all of the posts saying "Well why can't Adobe offer a solution?" I will be laughing. :)



Except that in terms of their overall business, the hit will be practically insignificant to them and AD will still be the industry leader when most will be using Maya. Adobe is not in a dissimilar position.

I agree. But... as Houdini increases in popularity and acquires more and more users... they WILL pose a threat to AD. And I look forward to that day.

And then I remembered what you said in the AD thread - which is PRECISELY where is Adobe is - an industry leader:



its not a matter of AD being evil. Its about why would you want to use software from a company who A) Has no incentive to innovate because of their market position and B) cares more about the share value of their stock then their customers needs? I understand using what you need to gain and keep food on the table but Id much rather use something else if it was an option.

THIS is where Adobe is with subscriptions. Once they've got people hooked, there is NO INCENTIVE to innovate. And - as YOU said above - "Its about why would you want to use software from a company who A) Has no incentive to innovate because of their market position and B) cares more about the share value of their stock then their customers needs?"

You can't have it both ways - but you seem to be doing exactly that.

ck96
03-22-2014, 12:33 PM
Adobe doesn't deserve any love from anybody.
They should never have been allowed to purchase Macromedia.
Would they have tried their lifetime Adobe tax back in the day? No way.
Their model from the start would have cost me probably 12 to 15000 dollars.
That's a hell of a lot.I spent less than a third of that and got the job done.
If you have cs6 keep using it till hell freezes over.
If you're an illustrator even a designer their cc won't make an ounce of difference.
You have the tools to do a good job.
Once you start with CC you're on the hook forever with any new project you do.
As for affordability: I've always gotten legitimate licenses for good prices.
Maybe Adobe will get the message to stuff their perpetual stupidity.
Look at Autodesk:didn't they try perpetual only for awhile? Or was it 3 years or something like that?
You won't grow your business that way you're just alienating and milking dry your user base.

hrgiger
03-22-2014, 12:55 PM
Don't give me that car analogy. At the end of PAYMENTS you OWN the car. Come on HR, we're not stupid here. And I don't know if you use Adobe products in a business, but we do. if you can't AFFORD to buy a suite, then you SAVE your money for when you can afford it. That's what people used to do you know. And even though my Production Premium suite is old, I can still sell it - something that you can't do with subscription.

Well generally, its not long after I'm done with payments on a car that I'm ready to buy another one. I don't see it much differently with software, its not like you can run that software forever. Either it will become so dated as to not even be useful anymore or it won't be supported on a newer operating system that you might switch to.
Oh and I see...if I can't afford to buy a license outright but there's an affordable subscription, I shouldn't use what I could have right now via the subscription route, I should just not have software to use for several months (or longer) until I can afford it. Good plan.


We've been all through this before and neither one of us will change our minds. If you're a small business owner like myself and need these files for your livelihood, then one day you will find out WHEN the next recession hits and you can't afford to keep up subscription. As I recall though, you don't use Premiere or AE so it wouldn't affect you as much - but it certainly will other people who own small businesses. Then I can't wait to hear the wailing when they have to stop their subscription and can't open their files and then see all of the posts saying "Well why can't Adobe offer a solution?" I will be laughing. :)

I do actually use Premiere quite a lot actually, AE on the other hand I've leaned some but currently there's not a lot of need for it. If there ever came a time where the subscription model wont' work for me I will look for an alternative. If I can't open files, I dont' see a disaster scenario like you seem to think it is. If you have clients that are just constantly asking you to reopen projects you've already completed for them, well its time to start charging them again. Now go buy a subscription if its necessary for your business with the money. If you already have a perpetual license, then I'm not sure what you're complaining about. But otherwise, you'll be creating content in alternative software and its not an issue anyway. If anyone buys a subscription at this point and plans to always have access to their files and doesn't plan for that scenario, well, then maybe they need to be a bit more smart about such things.


I agree. But... as Houdini increases in popularity and acquires more and more users... they WILL pose a threat to AD. And I look forward to that day.

I imagine you'll be waiting your lifetime for that. I don't see Houdini posing any serious threat to Maya's position in the industry.





THIS is where Adobe is with subscriptions. Once they've got people hooked, there is NO INCENTIVE to innovate. And - as YOU said above - "Its about why would you want to use software from a company who A) Has no incentive to innovate because of their market position and B) cares more about the share value of their stock then their customers needs?"

You can't have it both ways - but you seem to be doing exactly that.

Except Adobe does have incentive to innovate, especially if they want to raise their prices on the subscription model.

By the way, that last quote you posted isn't even mine.

Megalodon2.0
03-22-2014, 02:24 PM
Well generally, its not long after I'm done with payments on a car that I'm ready to buy another one. I don't see it much differently with software, its not like you can run that software forever. Either it will become so dated as to not even be useful anymore or it won't be supported on a newer operating system that you might switch to.
Oh and I see...if I can't afford to buy a license outright but there's an affordable subscription, I shouldn't use what I could have right now via the subscription route, I should just not have software to use for several months (or longer) until I can afford it. Good plan.

I see... so when you finish paying off your car, you don't SELL IT? You don't OWN IT? Or do you trade it in FOR MONEY? Come on HR, why do you think we're stupid here? And I have an '89 Honda and my wife has a '95 Saturn. ;)

And please don't go into that old OS crap. It's been done to death. I have software running on a Win2k machine as well as WinXP and Win7. The software I NEED I keep systems running to use it.

And if you can't afford to buy the software suite, wait till Adobe REQUIRES that you upgrade your OS and times are tough. Can't wait to see that.

And further thinking about it... You can BUY a car, but you can't afford to buy a Creative Suite? So it's a matter of priorities, isn't it.



I do actually use Premiere quite a lot actually, AE on the other hand I've leaned some but currently there's not a lot of need for it. If there ever came a time where the subscription model wont' work for me I will look for an alternative. If I can't open files, I dont' see a disaster scenario like you seem to think it is. If you have clients that are just constantly asking you to reopen projects you've already completed for them, well its time to start charging them again. Now go buy a subscription if its necessary for your business with the money. If you already have a perpetual license, then I'm not sure what you're complaining about. But otherwise, you'll be creating content in alternative software and its not an issue anyway. If anyone buys a subscription at this point and plans to always have access to their files and doesn't plan for that scenario, well, then maybe they need to be a bit more smart about such things.
I have archviz projects where customers reuse renderings and floor plans. You apparently don't work in the archviz market so you don't have a clue. And we Do charge - where do you get the idea that we wouldn't? It would be idiotic to go on subscription during a recession when you are asked to move a wall here and change wording there - a cost that may be only about $20. And that's it - MANY apparently do not comprehend that they MAY not have access to their files OR they don't deal with clients that actually USE old files. As I've said OFTEN - a one-size-fits-all software solution - like FORCED subscription - does not work. CHOICE does work.


Except Adobe does have incentive to innovate, especially if they want to raise their prices on the subscription model.

So you say that AD doesn't have the incentive to innovate and Adobe does - yet you said that they are comparable? Wow, you can't even remember what YOU said.


By the way, that last quote you posted isn't even mine.

Post #201: http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?140366-Is-Softimage-dead&p=1371904&viewfull=1#post1371904

hrgiger
03-22-2014, 03:06 PM
Well as you said earlier. not going to change your mind so its kinds of pointless to continue but...

You seem to have this bug about owning versus renting...Yet you have no interest in subscribing to Adobe so I'm not sure why it even matters to you. But in the case of the car, yes I take whatever the car is worth at that point and deduct it from the new car's value but in no way does it significantly impact the payment overall so it seems like kind of a moot point to point out ownership at that point. To put it in LW terms, yes, you might very well own LW10, but you're sure not going to get a hell of a lot of money for it since that person is going to have to pay 700 dollars more to upgrade to the current version. In the case of Adobe, it would take somewhere around 4+ years of subscribing to come up to the price of buying the creative suite outright (if that were still an option) and because of that discount, I don't really consider that I can't sell it a huge setback. And nice that you have a car from the time when Rick Astley was popular but I need a dependable car for work and so stay fairly current. Generally once the car is paid off and begins costing me money to fix, its time for a new car. On average about every 5 years.

3D is not my only source of income nor the majority of my income so I dont' have to worry about not having enough clients or being out of work. But then that's the point you're missing. I'm not telling you or anyone else that Adobe's plan should work for you or how you should feel about it. I'm telling you it works for me but you don't seem to be satisfied by that. You have this idea that most people are out there with pitchforks and torches just furious at Adobe for what they've done and that's just not reality. Surely there are plenty of people that are not happy with the decision to go subscription only. But on the other hand, by going subscription, they've made their software accessible to many others who would not have paid that much for it before. And yes, a choice would be preferable, but to say that forced subscription does not work isn't facing up to reality. Clearly their growing subscription numbers tell another story.

And you're right that was my quote. I didn't realize you were prospecting other threads because you are just deadest on making a point. Yes, I believe Adobe has more incentive to innovate then AD. For the following reasons: A) since everyone seems to believe they're going to raise their subscription rates and they haven't denied it, they're going to have to show that subscription comes with advancements in the software and B) Adobe has a more level playing field then AD does. Maya is so far ahead of any other 3D app out there, followed remotely far behind by another one of its own products 3DS Max. Adobe on the other hand has a far more level playing field with variable alternatives of software that deal with video editing, web design, photo manipulation, etc..

Megalodon2.0
03-22-2014, 03:38 PM
You seem to have this bug about owning versus renting...Yet you have no interest in subscribing to Adobe so I'm not sure why it even matters to you. But in the case of the car, yes I take whatever the car is worth at that point and deduct it from the new car's value but in no way does it significantly impact the payment overall so it seems like kind of a moot point to point out ownership at that point. To put it in LW terms, yes, you might very well own LW10, but you're sure not going to get a hell of a lot of money for it since that person is going to have to pay 700 dollars more to upgrade to the current version. In the case of Adobe, it would take somewhere around 4+ years of subscribing to come up to the price of buying the creative suite outright (if that were still an option) and because of that discount, I don't really consider that I can't sell it a huge setback. And nice that you have a car from the time when Rick Astley was popular but I need a dependable car for work and so stay fairly current. Generally once the car is paid off and begins costing me money to fix, its time for a new car. On average about every 5 years.
So maybe you should just GIVE your car away... if it doesn't affect your payment (which I find difficult to believe)... why not? It must be nice to be able to get a new car every five years or so and still not be able to afford a Creative Suite. Like I said, PRIORITIES. :D


And you're right that was my quote. I didn't realize you were prospecting other threads because you are just deadest on making a point. Yes, I believe Adobe has more incentive to innovate then AD. For the following reasons: A) since everyone seems to believe they're going to raise their subscription rates and they haven't denied it, they're going to have to show that subscription comes with advancements in the software and B) Adobe has a more level playing field then AD does. Maya is so far ahead of any other 3D app out there, followed remotely far behind by another one of its own products 3DS Max. Adobe on the other hand has a far more level playing field with variable alternatives of software that deal with video editing, web design, photo manipulation, etc..

And yet...


Except that in terms of their overall business, the hit will be practically insignificant to them and AD will still be the industry leader when most will be using Maya. Adobe is not in a dissimilar position.

I just remembered what you said in that thread - AND mentioned Adobe in that thread again as well. Sorry, I'm not responsible for your memory. :) - but I do still have one.

YOu just like to have it BOTH way - because that is essentially what you yourself said - "Adobe is not in a dissimilar position." Your words, not mine.

hrgiger
03-22-2014, 04:04 PM
Sigh, read into it however you wish Megalodon. You seem to only exist on these boards to argue sometimes.. I said not dissimilar as in there are similarities. I didn't say they were the same. What Adobe has is industry brand recognition as well as offering all of these tools in a suite across several different mediums (video editing, compositing, web design...) and in that regard, I don't see a lot of other alternatives out there that offer the same range of capabilities in a single suite. Photoshop might be the one thing that stands out as a Maya among photo editing software but there are other equally appealing video and compositing tools out there.

If you want to, I can bring up countless posts where you talk about how Newtek has screwed you over and then you're kissing their *** the next minute...But that seems kind of pointless to me. The whole point of this debate is that I'm telling you that this model of subscription works for some people, it works for me and you telling me I don't own my software or that I won't be able to open my files after I stop paying a subscription doesn't negate that fact.

As far as the car thing, a car enables more income for me then 3D so yes, it is a priority for me to have a reliable car. I commute and hour each day back and forth, I put 30+k miles on my car each year so yeah, every 5 years is not an unreasonable amount of time to trade in for a new car. My priorities concerning software consist of 3D software first and then the Adobe offerings. I could find alternatives for the Adobe software if I wanted but I'm familiar with it so I see no reason to change right now just to learn something else. More of a luxury expense for me which I can afford especially since I currently only pay $10 a month for the entire creative suite.

Megalodon2.0
03-22-2014, 04:20 PM
If you want to, I can bring up countless posts where you talk about how Newtek has screwed you over and then you're kissing their *** the next minute...But that seems kind of pointless to me. The whole point of this debate is that I'm telling you that this model of subscription works for some people, it works for me and you telling me I don't own my software or that I won't be able to open my files after I stop paying a subscription doesn't negate that fact.
Kissing their a$$es? Try to find a post where I've done that since CORE. You won't find it. I STILL think we were screwed with the LW10.x series, plain and simple. But for me, the problem was not with the software - and as I've said countless times previously - it was with the management decisions. I like LW and use it EVERY DAY - Sunday through Saturday. I enjoy using it and will continue to do so. And that's the most recent LW11.6.2. I don't have LW10 in my library of LW's from LW3 on the Amiga all the way up to the present. But no, I do not and HAVE NOT kissed any ***** at Newtek.

As far as the car thing, a car enables more income for me then 3D so yes, it is a priority for me to have a reliable car. I commute and hour each day back and forth, I put 30+k miles on my car each year so yeah, every 5 years is not an unreasonable amount of time to trade in for a new car. My priorities concerning software consist of 3D software first and then the Adobe offerings. I could find alternatives for the Adobe software if I wanted but I'm familiar with it so I see no reason to change right now just to learn something else. More of a luxury expense for me which I can afford especially since I currently only pay $10 a month for the entire creative suite.
I stand corrected here and apologize. For me, my income comes from 3D. For you, you need a reliable car and I can understand why THAT is more important and it IS your priority. So please accept my sincere apology for assuming that it was not as important as an Adobe CS.

Look... it is obvious that we are both passionate about 3D and what we do. We have similar (if not identical) views on LW and where they should go, but differing views on the subject of Adobe. If it works for you - and apparently it does - that's great. People like myself want the choice to own or rent AND we see the problems if Adobe does succeed. Regardless, I suggest we let this slide between us and move forward from here. How does that sound? :beerchug:

hrgiger
03-22-2014, 04:55 PM
Fine by me. I just wanted you to understand that subscriptions sometimes are better solutions then owning the software outright. But I think you're going to be disappointed if you're hoping that Adobe reverses its decision. They seem to be pretty committed to this course and it seems to be working for them. As I said, I don't agree with the decision to go subscription only but its not a deal breaker for me at this point. It may be at some point in the future but for now its pretty close to ideal especially with the discount I'm getting.

Megalodon2.0
03-22-2014, 06:02 PM
Fine by me. I just wanted you to understand that subscriptions sometimes are better solutions then owning the software outright. But I think you're going to be disappointed if you're hoping that Adobe reverses its decision. They seem to be pretty committed to this course and it seems to be working for them. As I said, I don't agree with the decision to go subscription only but its not a deal breaker for me at this point. It may be at some point in the future but for now its pretty close to ideal especially with the discount I'm getting.

Well yeah. Some people PREFER to rent, others prefer to own. I get that. And I have nothing against subscription - just against subscription ONLY.

Adobe made it VERY clear from the beginning that they were committed to the course and would not go back. The ONLY way they would is if sales dropped significantly for an extended period. I don't know if they will or not. And as I said earlier it won't affect me - at least with me using Adobe software - directly. I just don't want them to win for the simple fact that IF they do, it looks bad for the future. You can agree with that or not, but if Adobe fails, others will look at subscription ONLY as something that customers do NOT want. And I think that that is a fact.

And time will tell if this will work. As you already know, I'm hoping against it. I would rather they backpedal and offer perpetual licenses as well as subscription. We shall see.

Rayek
03-23-2014, 01:10 AM
On (another) sad note, one more loyal long-time PS user and script developer just said his goodbyes to the Adobe community due to support issues and login problems - He made the Contact Sheet II extension, amongst others.

It's so incredibly sad to see long-time professional users (who have supported the community for many years) just quit out of mere frustration with Adobe's CC implementation and the horrible support.

http://forums.adobe.com/message/6233169#6233169

If not anything else, these (small?) events will have a very negative effect in the long run, I feel.

m.d.
03-23-2014, 04:19 PM
For people who have temp employees, this is great, I agree. Same goes for the touted "greatness" of the AD model. For one and two man bands, that have enjoyed previously stable, even substantial, income streams (prior to the hosing that the banks and their cohorts all gave everyone—save for a choice few—and no one went to jail), since 2008 have been kicked in the teeth, a Perpetual License is all that saved their business and stood between working and being out in the street. If they had to fork out every month for tool rental, just to keep moving, some months they would not have been able to produce and honorably dig themselves out over time.

It isn't that Rental/Subscription is inherently bad (although there's room for debate), it is that when it is demanded as the only way to go that is the issue at hand. This is not customer-centric and that is largely the problem lately. "Screw the client. We call the shots!" is not how a healthy market is driven. Pendulums do swing and I hope that this one has a nice curved knife honed to the level of a scalpel on it when it comes back.

Well I didn't have any temp employees this year, and I still saved money.
My reason was I always upgraded....so I was spending more then the rental price annually anyway.

I don't disagree with anything you are saying....the subscription model was FORCED on all of us..
And ya, Adobe could morph into a big bad corporation and all the worst case scenarios could come true....but compared to what is forcibly shoved down our throats by all levels of government.....this is a minor concern for me.

I had my 2 months of venting, signing petitions, and even had a twitter battle with one of AE's development team...but after all that, I've decided to roll over and forego software ownership for the identical price rather then using GIMP :)

In the end, no one is forcing anyone to rent Adobe software....

Also for people concerned with opening there PPro files in the future.....XML....I round trip to Davinci with it all the time, send edits to Final Cut ect ect.
I still have my perpetual CS6 license, so I can always use that if all the badness comes true(to some degree) usine XML EDL ect. Photoshop same deal....PSD or layered TIFF's...might loose some compatibility issues.

m.d.
03-23-2014, 04:31 PM
Well yeah. Some people PREFER to rent, others prefer to own. I get that. And I have nothing against subscription - just against subscription ONLY.

Adobe made it VERY clear from the beginning that they were committed to the course and would not go back. The ONLY way they would is if sales dropped significantly for an extended period. I don't know if they will or not. And as I said earlier it won't affect me - at least with me using Adobe software - directly. I just don't want them to win for the simple fact that IF they do, it looks bad for the future.


I do agree with this and see a pattern forming....
But its not just Adobe...

The whole web is pushing cloud everything....including eventually an cloud OS by google or others, with you computer just becoming a glorified netbook.
OTOY already has MAX and MAYA working within a browser via the cloud. Adobe Anywhere has realtime 4k+ editing via the cloud and a browser...with no files contained within the computer. Clarise has modeling, animating and Vray rendering via the cloud....Octane is soon releasing their cloud rendering. google docs, dropbox, itunes, ect ect ect.

I think the future is leaning towards zero ownership, and pay per service models of everything. It is a bit scary, and right now we are at the mercy of the good graces of Google and others until we are fully dependent and someone decides to drop the hammer...

One of the best business models is built around recurring revenue. Warren Buffet loves insurance for that fact alone....the perpetual, predictable revenue stream allows him to use that as a vehicle for his other investments.
A lot of business will make the choice to sacrifice short term gains, for long term revenue stream.

robertoortiz
03-23-2014, 06:01 PM
One of the big problems I have with the cloud is the concept of liability/Security.

I have been against the cloud from day one.

Here is one of my postings from the CGSociety from 4 years ago.
Check out my post from 4 years ago...
"The big three in my book are: Cost, Security and Reliability.

Cost:
With the cloud, you would be moving towards a Rendering as a service economy.
Think about it for a second.
You would have to pay, either by instance or subscription, to be able to
render a scene.

I would only use this for finals you say?
Well when was the last time you rendered a project that you did not have to tweak?


Security:
First you would have to send your assets, to a third party to render.
Again think about that.
How well do you trust that vendor in handling your data?
Are you sure you want to trust them with all the intellectual property of your company
(rigs, shaders, etc) you may have on your scenes?
And how about the liability issues with your clients over their Ip being share with another third party?

Reliability:
Even Google has dropped the ball in terms of dependability of the cloud.
What happens when you have a close dateline and the cloud is not there?
"
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=2&t=865771&highlight=liability+cloud


and I love how this was swept under the carpet:

Autodesk 360 (Cloud Service) TOS: Have you guys read this stuff?

http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=2&t=1067886&highlight=liability

(I was burned in effigy over this thread)

spherical
03-23-2014, 10:42 PM
The whole web is pushing cloud everything....

Yeah. And how stupid is that?

Let's see, not all that many years ago, Distributed Computing was the BIG DEAL. Big Iron (IBM, DEC and others) took the advent of the Desktop Revolution in the teeth. OK, so now we're at a fully developed Distributed Computing environment and, guess what, they've managed to get the pendulum swinging in the other direction back to concentrated servers supplying clients; just like it was in the 60's... only slightly different and labelled "Cloud". WhooHoo!... Not! Gimme a break.

I worked on Big Iron and loved it. But in this version of it, one good hacker out there can COMPLETELY RUIN YOUR WHOLE DAY!. Why? Because you're now dependent upon connectivity to the server farm; where previously you had control over your environment. If you didn't protect your internal infrastructure from attack from the outside, that's your fault. However, if you are accessing your tools and, in some cases, data over a very exposed and vulnerable medium that isn't under your control, a medium that is being attacked every millisecond of every day (trust me, I've been defending against a DoS attack tor the last week on our server), sooner or later you will be denied your ability to work; just because shot ***hed out there thinks they can get rich quick or thinks it's funny or prestigious to have taken down a big target like Adobe or AutoCash.

YOU are the one at risk, here.

Simple as that. The "Cloud" is the "Emperor's New Clothes". Wake up.

EDIT: Just read Robert's post, above. What he said.

JonW
03-23-2014, 11:56 PM
The whole web is pushing cloud everything....including eventually an cloud OS by google or others, with you computer just becoming a glorified netbook.

It is funny how things go full circle.

When I first used computers it was on a terminal attached to a mainframe. I even had a terminal at home so I could work from there.

JonW
03-24-2014, 12:09 AM
I would only use this for finals you say?
Well when was the last time you rendered a project that you did not have to tweak?



I always render a few progress renders for customers. If they a nice customers to deal with I often render a view or maybe 2 if there is enough data in the overall scene that maybe useful for them and they look good from my point of view & I can hit F9 without further work other than moving the camera. & they have paid for the job without hassles!

If I have to pay any extra for 3rd party render time there will be less freebies from me!

jeric_synergy
03-24-2014, 12:41 AM
...but I have paid less for my subscription then my upgrades this year....and there were at least 2 major upgrades this cycle.

The beauty of the whole thing for a small business, is when I have to hire another editor for a big job....it's $50 a month for the whole suite. I hire a freelancer for a month and at the end of the month I only paid $50 for use of the entire suite.
If I take a few months off in the summer....i can let the subscription go for a few months..save $100

By no means do I agree with this model....especially never owning your software...

But in all practical sense...it has saved me money this year, and the bottom line is what counts....I am not going to fight an idealogical war over something no one is forcing me to comply with.
That and the constant upgrades have been great.
::scratches head:: You seem to have benefited from this model -- why would you not agree w/it?

I for one am happy to get a slew of applications I wouldn't otherwise, plus some pointless cloud services, plus several updates a year, instead of dreading the big f*cking upgrade on AE every 18 months. I was NEVER going to update AI, PS or Premiere, but now I got 'em.

And btw, aren't CC licenses good on TWO computers? I seem to recall something like that....

Once the first year come-ons expire Adobe gets a boost on every CC account, maybe that's what's driving the stock price.

spherical
03-24-2014, 01:51 AM
::scratches head:: And btw, aren't CC licenses good on TWO computers?

So are Perpetuals. Have been for years... ::scratches head::

BigHache
03-24-2014, 06:01 AM
Security:
First you would have to send your assets, to a third party to render.
Again think about that.
How well do you trust that vendor in handling your data?
Are you sure you want to trust them with all the intellectual property of your company
(rigs, shaders, etc) you may have on your scenes?
And how about the liability issues with your clients over their Ip being share with another third party?


This stops my company immediately. Not only does my dept. deal with sensitive information, but my company is FDA regulated. So until a company like Adobe goes through the process of becoming a vetted, FDA compliantly secure vendor, we are legally prohibited from even considering a cloud service. Roberto, I'm sure you're in a similar-ish situ with your job.

hazmat777
03-24-2014, 08:43 AM
This stops my company immediately. Not only does my dept. deal with sensitive information, but my company is FDA regulated. So until a company like Adobe goes through the process of becoming a vetted, FDA compliantly secure vendor, we are legally prohibited from even considering a cloud service. Roberto, I'm sure you're in a similar-ish situ with your job.

I am no expert by any means on legal issues, but this whole CC stuff makes a question for me. What is Disney and all these other film industry companies going to say about this? I mean, if they go "cloud" then their recently purchased assets would be online for someone to hack and steal right? LucasFilm was not an inexpensive purchase for them and for them to stay current software wise they'll have to switch to the "cloud" right? That is a multi-billion dollar risk.

VonBon
03-24-2014, 10:11 AM
What do Big companies like Adobe and Autodesk fear most, ……… “competition”. How do you destroy competition ……. You make sure that they rely on you to operate. If I can’t own something then I will always need you to function. When you are mad at me or I do something you don’t like, you will punish me. This isn’t just going on in our field but all over if you’re looking closely. No, I’m not talking about conspiracy theories but in fact Business Practices. What they want is to be able to control the market at will. These people didn’t wake up on morning and say “Hey I got this idea about a Cloud service”. They have been conjuring this “Trap” for some time now, and they figured that now people would be susceptible to the idea. These companies want to know what you want before you do. So they plan ahead to prepare you for what it is that they want you to want next. They condition the public for this revolving cycle so that they can continue to stay in control. In the end, we the people are to blame. Either we are too comfortable with our life style, don’t care or simply blind to the illusion of choice to do anything about our growing situation. I’ll stop now before I get political, but just know that we don’t elect our Government, but instead are allowed to pick from the group of people chosen by the Wealthiest.

BigHache
03-24-2014, 10:56 AM
What is Disney and all these other film industry companies going to say about this?

If say Photoshop operated on a cloud only platform, where your asset had to be created and saved on the cloud, I can't see these studios continuing to use a product like that. In fact, I could see freelancers stop using Photoshop too because that would most likely be a breach of an NDA if an NDA were required.

Additionally, what if a cloud server were hacked and the parent company took the server down for security, preventing me from accessing my files and working? The company is going to tell me I have to miss my deadline because of their inability to keep their server secured? That's not going to work.

VonBon
03-24-2014, 11:20 AM
The heads of Adobe and Disney sit at the same table, they will work something out.

gjjackson
03-24-2014, 12:15 PM
It is funny how things go full circle.

When I first used computers it was on a terminal attached to a mainframe. I even had a terminal at home so I could work from there.


I remember thinking the same thing when Microsoft was expecting ALL applications to be on the web. Our company's systems are becoming ALL web based, e.g., Citrix and the many applications via that server. One of the biggest issues is bandwidth and speed. Productivity has certainly diminished to a certain degree. Not only that if Citrix is down there is Zero productivity. There are too many disadvantages for me to be convinced to use it. That's why I went and bought CS6 before there wasn't any alternative.

robertoortiz
03-24-2014, 12:17 PM
This stops my company immediately. Not only does my dept. deal with sensitive information, but my company is FDA regulated. So until a company like Adobe goes through the process of becoming a vetted, FDA compliantly secure vendor, we are legally prohibited from even considering a cloud service. Roberto, I'm sure you're in a similar-ish situ with your job.
Ohh yeah.

My boss is not happy with this AT ALL.
If yo utalk to cratives in the DC area, NON of them are happy baout this jump to madness that Adobe has done.

jeric_synergy
03-24-2014, 01:07 PM
To address one misapprehension: Just because you are USING Photoshop CC, it doesn't necessarily mean your DATA is on the cloud-- you can always work locally, securely.

And huge eyeroll on that one.

robertoortiz
03-24-2014, 01:16 PM
To address one misapprehension: Just because you are USING Photoshop CC, it doesn't necessarily mean your DATA is on the cloud-- you can always work locally, securely.

And huge eyeroll on that one.

Of course.
But this begs the question,
Why do you need the ALWAYS ON internet connection at all?
What is the advantage of this?

hrgiger
03-24-2014, 02:31 PM
Of course.
But this begs the question,
Why do you need the ALWAYS ON internet connection at all?
What is the advantage of this?

You don't have to always be connected to the internet to use Adobe CC.

Sekhar
03-24-2014, 03:42 PM
OK guys who are bringing in the anti-cloud arguments (the usual "not secure," etc.) to creative cloud: all apps run on your computer (except Story), NOT IN THE "CLOUD!!!" You don't need to store anything in the "cloud," if you don't want to. "Cloud" has to be the most misused/overused word today.

Megalodon2.0
03-24-2014, 03:48 PM
You don't have to always be connected to the internet to use Adobe CC.

No, but MANY users (check out the Adobe forums and FB) have to sign on EVERY time they turn on the software. Every time someone brings up the "I thought it needed to connect with the Adobe server once each month" there is NEVER a response.

- - - Updated - - -


OK guys who are bringing in the anti-cloud arguments (the usual "not secure," etc.) to creative cloud: all apps run on your computer (except Story), NOT IN THE "CLOUD!!!" You don't need to store anything in the "cloud," if you don't want to. "Cloud" has to be the most misused/overused word today.

We ALL know this. Everyone is talking about what is COMING, not what is here.

If Adobe succeeds, we will lose.

Sekhar
03-24-2014, 04:03 PM
No, but MANY users (check out the Adobe forums and FB) have to sign on EVERY time they turn on the software. Every time someone brings up the "I thought it needed to connect with the Adobe server once each month" there is NEVER a response.

No, the reason they had to sign in repeatedly (I had that problem too) was because they weren't signing in as admin. Adobe should have made that clear, but the point is that you don't need to sign in every time you use the software - they check once each month as I understand.


We ALL know this. Everyone is talking about what is COMING, not what is here.

No, we don't. E.g., see Roberto's post (#32 (http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?140734-Adobe-reports-lowest-net-profit-yet-for-Q1-2014&p=1374018&viewfull=1#post1374018))...the security arguments there are not relevant in CC discussions.

In any case, I don't want to get into a pro/anti Adobe fight here (which is totally pointless based on this and past threads on the topic), and I do appreciate the anti-subscription-only sentiments...just trying to clarify for those reading this thread and might be considering CC.

hazmat777
03-24-2014, 04:11 PM
OK guys who are bringing in the anti-cloud arguments (the usual "not secure," etc.) to creative cloud: all apps run on your computer (except Story), NOT IN THE "CLOUD!!!" You don't need to store anything in the "cloud," if you don't want to. "Cloud" has to be the most misused/overused word today.

Well, maybe I don't know every word in the Terms OA but I just think it's weird that companies are going in this direction at the same time that studios are "laying off" tons of CG workers. Call me a conspiracy guy. :) It seems like the internet folk want to have everyone post their work to their servers eventually. Just to nerd out for a minute, can you imagine having one of the original models from Star Wars ? The Rebel Ship for example ? There are going to be tons of new CG models for just these new Disney/LucasFilms alone. I mean, would you want to store YOUR vision on someones server ?

Megalodon2.0
03-24-2014, 04:19 PM
No, the reason they had to sign in repeatedly (I had that problem too) was because they weren't signing in as admin. Adobe should have made that clear, but the point is that you don't need to sign in every time you use the software - they check once each month as I understand.
That was one of the items that was discussed, but that did not solve most of the posts that I saw on FB. The software REQUIRED connection and when it could not connect, it would shut down and not allow you to use the software.



No, we don't. E.g., see Roberto's post (#32 (http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?140734-Adobe-reports-lowest-net-profit-yet-for-Q1-2014&p=1374018&viewfull=1#post1374018))...the security arguments there are not relevant in CC discussions.
If you have to connect EVEN ONCE (which IS required) then it IS a security concern. Administrators of these offline systems will simply NOT allow connection to the internet. Period.

hrgiger
03-24-2014, 04:28 PM
No, but MANY users (check out the Adobe forums and FB) have to sign on EVERY time they turn on the software. Every time someone brings up the "I thought it needed to connect with the Adobe server once each month" there is NEVER a response.

- - - Updated - - -





Since I've signed up to Adobe cloud over 15 months ago, I've had to sign in twice. Once when I first installed it, and the second time when I bought my new computer and installed cloud there.

Seriously, Adobe Cloud couldn't have been any smoother for me. Never had such ease in downloading and installing software (and updates) pretty much all automatically. The only issue was when they got hacked and there was possible access to credit card information. Adobe sent me a free years of credit monitoring and I haven't had any issues with it.

JonW
03-24-2014, 04:29 PM
I remember thinking the same thing when Microsoft was expecting ALL applications to be on the web. Our company's systems are becoming ALL web based, e.g., Citrix and the many applications via that server. One of the biggest issues is bandwidth and speed. Productivity has certainly diminished to a certain degree. Not only that if Citrix is down there is Zero productivity. There are too many disadvantages for me to be convinced to use it. That's why I went and bought CS6 before there wasn't any alternative.

We had a very good system & there was about a thousand people who could login at any one time. The system was slow when everyone used it, but by far the largest problem was when the system was having maintenance done or if it crashed & no one could do any work!

Megalodon2.0
03-24-2014, 04:48 PM
Since I've signed up to Adobe cloud over 15 months ago, I've had to sign in twice. Once when I first installed it, and the second time when I bought my new computer and installed cloud there.

Seriously, Adobe Cloud couldn't have been any smoother for me. Never had such ease in downloading and installing software (and updates) pretty much all automatically. The only issue was when they got hacked and there was possible access to credit card information. Adobe sent me a free years of credit monitoring and I haven't had any issues with it.

And I would bet MOST users do not have that problem, but MANY still do. I'm sure if you were one of those who couldn't work because your machine couldn't connect - or if your credit card was declined or they had problems charging your card and your software shut down, you would be livid. And many of those people ARE livid since apparently many of them are professionals and cannot use the software. I'm not making it up, it's on the Adobe forums and FB daily.

Many have problems with LW crashing often - for me it hardly every crashes. That doesn't mean that everyone else is mistaken.

hrgiger
03-24-2014, 05:24 PM
Lol, very few companies have problems charging your credit card. And usually when they can't, the fault lies with the user.

Of course there are going to be issues, no system is ever without them. Of course you're going to see people complaining, its not a popular decision to go cloud only. I'm just saying that I use a few of the apps daily and have not encountered any problems in a little over a year now. It would seem if problems are so widespread I might see an issue or two here or there but I haven't.

Megalodon2.0
03-24-2014, 05:53 PM
Lol, very few companies have problems charging your credit card. And usually when they can't, the fault lies with the user.

Of course there are going to be issues, no system is ever without them. Of course you're going to see people complaining, its not a popular decision to go cloud only. I'm just saying that I use a few of the apps daily and have not encountered any problems in a little over a year now. It would seem if problems are so widespread I might see an issue or two here or there but I haven't.
And Lightwave doesn't crash on ANY of my machines.... (I can't remember the last time LW11.x crashed here) so I guess that anyone having any problems with LW crashing are just imagining it. :dance:

And these people complaining are not the ones who despise "the cloud," they bought CC and WANT to use it and have serious problems.

hrgiger
03-24-2014, 06:00 PM
You're just pushing LW hard enough then :).

jaf
03-24-2014, 06:21 PM
The last two aerospace jobs I worked our only Internet type access out of the building was Secret Internet Protocol Router Network (SIPRNet.) I have to believe there's many Government contractors in the same "boat." And you didn't walk in or out of the building with any type of storage media. Updates were received through the local command's security department. The building had to meet Tempest requirements.

Unless things have changed, there's no way we could get updates or use any of the CC.

m.d.
03-24-2014, 07:01 PM
::scratches head:: You seem to have benefited from this model -- why would you not agree w/it?

I for one am happy to get a slew of applications I wouldn't otherwise, plus some pointless cloud services, plus several updates a year, instead of dreading the big f*cking upgrade on AE every 18 months. I was NEVER going to update AI, PS or Premiere, but now I got 'em.

And btw, aren't CC licenses good on TWO computers? I seem to recall something like that....

Once the first year come-ons expire Adobe gets a boost on every CC account, maybe that's what's driving the stock price.

All CS licenses were always 2 computers....

Benefiting from something does not necessarily mean agreeing with it.....

VonBon
03-25-2014, 10:05 AM
For the "Pro" CC people, the problem is not CC but the lack of an option
for a perpetual License for those of us who would rather purchase the software.

The problem that "Pro" CC people tend to look over is the future consequences
of a Subscription only model. First you have to realize that Adobe is a public company,
which means they always want an increase in profits every year, like every company.
Now by the time Adobes subscriptions are leveling off, most users will have converted
most if not all of their Adobe files over to the then current CC format of that time. So the
next year is coming around and Adobe needs to show an increase in profits to its investors,
and if the subscriptions have reached a point of stagnation, the only way to increase those
profits will be to increase the subscription price. At this point users are "Trapped" because
if they can't refuse to pay the new monthly fee. You could refuse to pay but you would not
be able to do your work. Ultimately, whats going to stop Adobe from raising the fee every
year or every 6 months.

This is why i don't think that the CC format is good for the User.

Tranimatronic
03-25-2014, 10:29 AM
The other thing to consider is - for VFX work, we now have Mari which solves 2 problems.
The 'cloud' thing AND people having any reason to produce anything in SRGB colorspace.
We have recently ceased all development and support for photoshop in our pipeline.

I cant imagine that helping Adobe's quarterly profit at all.....

hrgiger
03-25-2014, 11:22 AM
For the "Pro" CC people, the problem is not CC but the lack of an option
for a perpetual License for those of us who would rather purchase the software.

The problem that "Pro" CC people tend to look over is the future consequences
of a Subscription only model. First you have to realize that Adobe is a public company,
which means they always want an increase in profits every year, like every company.
Now by the time Adobes subscriptions are leveling off, most users will have converted
most if not all of their Adobe files over to the then current CC format of that time. So the
next year is coming around and Adobe needs to show an increase in profits to its investors,
and if the subscriptions have reached a point of stagnation, the only way to increase those
profits will be to increase the subscription price. At this point users are "Trapped" because
if they can't refuse to pay the new monthly fee. You could refuse to pay but you would not
be able to do your work. Ultimately, whats going to stop Adobe from raising the fee every
year or every 6 months.

This is why i don't think that the CC format is good for the User.

or not. Raising prices isnt the only way to increase profits. Gaining more subscribers to the cloud, which theyve done to the tune of half a million subscribers since the end of last year, is another. Theyve opened their market to a whole new group of subscribers who may not have been able to afford it otherwise. Could they have done that and still kept their old model of licensed software. Sure. But they didnt.

VonBon
03-25-2014, 12:00 PM
I said when subscriptions reach a point of stagnation, meaning that
no new people are joining or very few. So when every person who
may use the Adobe Cloud services signs up, there is no other way
to increase revenue from subscriptions other than to increase the
subscription fee for current subscribers.

Megalodon2.0
03-25-2014, 01:03 PM
I said when subscriptions reach a point of stagnation, meaning that
no new people are joining or very few. So when every person who
may use the Adobe Cloud services signs up, there is no other way
to increase revenue from subscriptions other than to increase the
subscription fee for current subscribers.
Or when these sale prices run out and people start having to pay full price. As many have indicated on the Adobe forums, when their subscription runs out, they will unsubscribe.

Remember that last push in the 4th quarter of 2013 to get more subscribers was the special $9.99 deal of PS and LR. That's where the bulk of their recent subscribers came from. Previously it MAY have been the full suite at $50, but those subscriptions are also running out. Can't wait to see what happens when they start raising the price. Hopefully we'll see more Krita and Photoline users. :)

robertoortiz
03-25-2014, 01:43 PM
Or when these sale prices run out and people start having to pay full price. As many have indicated on the Adobe forums, when their subscription runs out, they will unsubscribe.

Remember that last push in the 4th quarter of 2013 to get more subscribers was the special $9.99 deal of PS and LR. That's where the bulk of their recent subscribers came from. Previously it MAY have been the full suite at $50, but those subscriptions are also running out. Can't wait to see what happens when they start raising the price. Hopefully we'll see more Krita and Photoline users. :)

What realy scares me is that not only are they pushing their weird hybrid cloud version hard, they are looking to make themselves a integral part on how we run a business.

So unless there is sginificant change in Adobe Management, the CC is here to stay.

And to be frank, their end game is to move away from tool development to be a IP management platform. As in that they want a piece of the pie in terms of whatever IP their userbase is DEVELOPING.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/roberthof/2014/03/25/adobe-expands-marketing-cloud-again-with-new-services/?ss=cmo-network

Megalodon2.0
03-25-2014, 02:12 PM
What realy scares me is that not only are they pushing their weird hybrid cloud version hard, they are looking to make themselves a integral part on how we run a business.

So unless there is sginificant change in Adobe Management, the CC is here to stay.

And to be frank, their end game is to move away from tool development to be a IP management platform. As in that they want a piece of the pie in terms of whatever IP their userbase is DEVELOPING.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/roberthof/2014/03/25/adobe-expands-marketing-cloud-again-with-new-services/?ss=cmo-network

CC is here to dtay for only as long as they their profit rises. If profits stagnate with many users migrating to other PL software, then they will have to revisit their decision. As you have already indicated, it will be difficult to gain government users due to security concerns with "the cloud." In addition, many schools are dropping Adobe and will be using their current PL versions and are looking for alternatives. Many schools are citing costs, but many see the writing on the wall and the increased cost. Let's face it, most Adobe users don't use ALL of the software which is why they broke it down into several specialized suites. Of course Adobe can continue to be aggressive and work out sweetheart deals with schools, but so far they have stood fast. I think their strategy is just like it was with getting back to us users with an "exit strategy" to be able to use the software after subscription - they ignored us. They won't address it until they HAVE to address it.

I certainly hope that most users refuse this new intrusion into their work. I do NOT want my work being dependent upon another company. If Newtek went this subscription only route (and I doubt they would) I would be moving quickly over to Blender. Simply being required to rent your tools is - for ME - a non-starter.

pauland
03-25-2014, 05:22 PM
As someone who does not earn a living from 3D, I'd like to offer a different perspective.

I work with design agencies a lot and the exchange format of assets is ALWAYS based on Adobe software - usually Photoshop, Illustrator or InDesign. Sometimes PDF.

While a lot of people are unhappy with the Cloud, I have never had a conversation with any client of mine where they say they are thinking of ditching Adobe software or asking that I take assets from them in any format other than Adobe or a generic file format (PNG, etc).

Essentially, I work in other clients pipelines, making software using design agency assets. That pipeline relies entirely on Adobe software.

In this design agency world the license cost of the cloud is low in comparison to the value of the jobs, so it's seen as a cost of doing business. I daresay that some agencies would like to buy software outright, but licensing allows them to run their business and the truth is that Adobe has a stranglehold with such a wide offering of software that addresses a typical design agency workflow well. There are no competitors remotely close that offer the breadth of applications that Adobe does.

Of course, this a world away from the lone-practitioner who doesn't have to fit into an Adobe-based workflow, and I understand completely why a perpetual license is attractive compared to an on-going commitment.

I suspect that the value of design agency licences eclipses that of the lone-practitioner by a wide margin, and while design agencies are comfortable with the subscription levels, Adobe will be able to stick with their plan.

There's no point moaning about what Adobe has done. If it doesn't suit, walk to an alternative vendor - that's the only way Adobe will take notice, but I still think the design agency market will largely go with the CC flow.

What CC has done for Adobe is to force people to contribute to the Adobe coffers continually, wheras in the past people would skip upgrades.

So far nobody has handed me an CC-based assets and largely I use CS6. A few clients have older versions of Adobe software and already they have issues working with me because my software won't save files in a format old enough for them to use natively.

If I was new to the scene, CC would be a godsend. For a small monthly payment, I can be up and running using software that I might never be able to afford at the start.

It will be interesting to see how this pans out. I can live with the CC, but the choice of a perpetual license would be good.

Megalodon2.0
03-25-2014, 06:17 PM
While a lot of people are unhappy with the Cloud, I have never had a conversation with any client of mine where they say they are thinking of ditching Adobe software or asking that I take assets from them in any format other than Adobe or a generic file format (PNG, etc).

Interesting that you mention this, because the exact opposite experience has been stated several times on the Adobe forum. A client would call and tentatively ask if the company was on CC - when the reply was definitely not there was a sigh of relief on the other end of the phone. And this was not an isolated incident since quite a few professionals on the forum stated that the clients they work with are NOT going with CC. Perhaps it depends upon the industry, but there are apparently differing opinions.

And if schools will be dropping Adobe - and quite a few apparently are - then the next crop of students may be more familiar with other software. Adobe dominance may be on the downswing - hopefully. And also hopefully, other software providers will start to move seriously forward to acquire the market share that Adobe has ignored.

jeric_synergy
03-25-2014, 11:09 PM
That makes NO sense: for a client, there's zero difference in assets created in CC applications and assets created in PL applications.

Sounds totally anecdotal. No to mention axe-grinding.

Megalodon2.0
03-25-2014, 11:31 PM
That makes NO sense: for a client, there's zero difference in assets created in CC applications and assets created in PL applications.

Sounds totally anecdotal. No to mention axe-grinding.

And yet... some features in PS CC don't translate to PS CS6. Not to mention features in InDesign, Premiere and AE.

Also, as time goes by, the differences will DEFINITELY increase and going back and forth will get even more problematic.

Just because you are okay with CC doesn't mean that there are not problems AND that others have found those problems AND that there will be MORE problems in the future.

Why get entrenched and then stuck with CC when you don't have to? Fortunately others are thinking about the potential problems.

Edit. And by the way, "client" in this case refers to someone working with the files and requiring the work files - NOT the end user.

robertoortiz
03-25-2014, 11:36 PM
That makes NO sense: for a client, there's zero difference in assets created in CC applications and assets created in PL applications.

Sounds totally anecdotal. No to mention axe-grinding.
Well you are partly right.
The files are the same, but the security of the network is not the same.

Recently I spoke with people who have worked for A Marvel studio project.
They told me that one of their key requirements is one of strict security.
And in no files hosted on servers that are NOT hosted within the firewall, and a separate secure key-card access to the environment where the project is being worked on.

One of the key issues with this CC is that if you machine gets hacked because of the REQUIRED internet connection there are BIG issues of liability.

Tranimatronic
03-26-2014, 10:49 AM
They told me that one of their key requirements is one of strict security.
And in no files hosted on servers that are NOT hosted within the firewall, and a separate secure key-card access to the environment where the project is being worked on.


Earlier this year WarnerBrothers did a security audit of our LA office. This is a BIG deal for them. The clients DO care A LOT, you have to pass this audit in order to be awarded work.

rwhunt99
03-27-2014, 10:47 AM
I believe this is viable IF you do update your software with every new version, but now they have a basically mature product where there is less and less of a reason to upgrade so to continue the revenue flow, they simply force you to rent to own. In the meantime, since it is relatively mature, and they automatically update their products you will never see big improvements because there is no reason too, unless there is competition or technical breakthroughs. I didn't upgrade at every version but did so about every other and now I will move away period.

robertoortiz
03-27-2014, 11:18 AM
One of the big problems I have with the "constant upgrades" option i s that when yo uare in the middle of a BIG complex project, with a big deadline, the last thing in the world you should be doing is changing your product baseline.
I need to know that when I press "Render" all my elelements, all my effects, all my composites behave the way I created them.
So in effect I dont see the idea of constant updates as a selling point for a lot of pros.

Hving said that I do believe that with the CC you have some options in terms of version control, right?.

BigHache
03-27-2014, 11:31 AM
Hving said that I do believe that with the CC you have some options in terms of version control, right?.

I have only seen a manual way to download Adobe CC updates. i.e. You have to manually open the Adobe Updater application, select the appropriate application, and click update.

What I am NOT sure about is say you have v14.0.1 installed, if it craps out for some reason and you need to re-install, but v14.2.0 is available. I DON'T know if you can go back and download 14.0.1.

m.d.
03-27-2014, 12:36 PM
I have only seen a manual way to download Adobe CC updates. i.e. You have to manually open the Adobe Updater application, select the appropriate application, and click update.

What I am NOT sure about is say you have v14.0.1 installed, if it craps out for some reason and you need to re-install, but v14.2.0 is available. I DON'T know if you can go back and download 14.0.1.

yes you can....its a little convoluted though

you have to uninstall the app....then re-install it through creative cloud, this installs the base CC version with no updates

then when CC indicates it is updating...cancel, and download the version you want
here is PPro's update page for example

http://www.adobe.com/support/downloads/product.jsp?product=98&platform=Windows

and all updates
http://www.adobe.com/ca/downloads/updates.html

Megalodon2.0
04-03-2014, 08:53 PM
Latest Story - from Forbes:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/stevedenning/2014/03/28/should-wall-street-reward-adobes-falling-profits/

"Not surprisingly, disgruntlement in the Adobe user community is significant. Andre Lawrence expresses what many felt: “Their excuse to go to a Cloud-Based-only delivery system … is transparently obvious: it’s purely an excessive, profit-driven motive… For the better part of five years now, companies have not been upgrading every other release. What this means is that Adobe (and many other software companies) have had to rely upon new customers in order to meet their sales goals.”

The risk for Adobe is that they are not only transitioning from software as product to software as services: they may also be transitioning from a maker of software that users love to a firm that customers see as aiming to lock them into long-term arrangements, regardless of performance or innovation.

For Adobe, there’s the rub. Simply calling their Cloud service “Creative” doesn’t necessarily make it creative. The underlying problem that Adobe was facing with its old business model was in charging for upgrades at prices that weren’t seen as warranted for the innovation that Adobe was offering. Financial gadgetry and ingenious leasing contracts can cover up this kind of problem for a while, but ultimately, unless Adobe can delight its customers with significant innovation that warrants continued payments of significant subscription fees, Adobe will be ripe for disruption from competitors who will offer the same for much less."

spherical
04-04-2014, 02:29 AM
Exactly right.

Megalodon2.0
04-13-2014, 06:56 PM
ADOBE BOOED AT NAB

http://forums.creativecow.net/thread/378/7378

"Whether adobe care at all is open to question, but that kind of reaction has to have some kind of impact. It's also notable that virtually every other provider introducing subscription is retaining a license model for those who need it. Even putting on my devils advocate hat, it still feels like adobe have gone too far.

I thought avid's model was interesting in that they are introducing subscription and retaining license - for the license holders, there is a 299 service and update charge which allows them to bypass sarbannes oxeley for both groups.

the obvious thing to point out here is that this gives the lie to adobe's insistence that retaining licenses would have meant bifurcating development, I always felt they were lying there, and well, they were lying there, avid has trivially introduced a reasonable fee cost for perpetual license holders to remain in train with subscription upgrades. Adobe lied about all that.

More than anything it is the sense of dishonesty with adobe's position that bugs me. They were never truthful about their motivations for moving to enforced subscription, or the reasons for dropping licenses. They have effectively lied with numbing regularity to everyone's faces about both things. We know they're lying, and they pretty much know we know. it's dysfunctional.

I think al mooney was expressing frustration in his tweet, but as herb suvesh pointed - in heat there is truth. Adobe, or at least large parts of adobe simply don't care about the lying, or the ignoring loud customer dissatisfaction thing. that said, them getting actively booed on stage by their own industry audience is a new turn of events."

spherical
04-13-2014, 11:44 PM
Yes!

Surrealist.
04-14-2014, 01:04 AM
From someone who was there:


Just to clarify…

A - the crowd reaction came at a point where in Al Money's Demo he had specifically paused rhetorically after making an early CC reference - essentially seeking the audiences feedback. So it was in no way an impolite shutting of him down. The audience was attentive to his overall presentation and it was an isolated moment.

B - yes it was a mixed response, but no where near a total jeer. There were certainly positive noises mixed in with the backlash stuff, but to deny the negative reaction would be to deny the truth.

C - that moment passed and Al was able to finish his presentation just as every other presenter. Al is a solid pro and wasn't thrown off stride in the slightest. Plus he wore a t-shirt with a cute cat on it - so there's that.

Megalodon2.0
04-14-2014, 01:34 PM
From someone who was there:

And then you just continue reading and see why so many were angry at the LIES Adobe has been perpetrating.

One immediately comes to mind - "You'll need to be on CS6 if you want to upgrade to CS7."

hrgiger
04-14-2014, 02:08 PM
Video or it didn't happen.

Surrealist.
04-14-2014, 11:55 PM
And then you just continue reading and see why so many were angry......

We already know what goes on online, the fact that a lot of people are upset etc.etc. Your post was about what happened at the event. Where you there?

I simply quoted the guy and stuck it here . I was not there. He was. If you were there then correct this guy.

Other than that, I am with hrgiger.

Video.

Megalodon2.0
04-15-2014, 10:16 AM
We already know what goes on online, the fact that a lot of people are upset etc.etc. Your post was about what happened at the event. Where you there?

I simply quoted the guy and stuck it here . I was not there. He was. If you were there then correct this guy.

Other than that, I am with hrgiger.

Video.

Will there wasn't video of the American Revolution, but it still happened. :)

Just the fact that there is still unrest is wonderful. And that Adobe stock has been going down for the last month is also great.

As I said previously... wait and see. Things are beginning to look better. :rock:

pauland
04-15-2014, 10:41 AM
Things are beginning to look better.

In what way exactly, apart from letting off a bit of steam?

Rayek
04-15-2014, 12:43 PM
Today, Adobe announced that it was discontinuing sales of the CS6 version of its software. The text of their message reads:

Dear Adobe Customer,

At Adobe, we’ve always been steadfast in our commitment to providing you with state-of-the-art creative tools. That’s why, effective June 1, we’re making Adobe Creative Cloud your exclusive source for all future creative licensing. This means that Adobe Creative Suite 6 will be discontinued under our TLP and CLP licensing programs. All other Adobe products available under volume licensing, like Adobe Acrobat and Adobe Presenter, will be unaffected by this change.

Rest assured, we’ll work with you to help make the move to Creative Cloud smooth and without disruption to your team’s projects. If you prefer, you may still buy individual copies of CS6 on adobe.com; however, the apps will not have been updated since CS6 was released two years ago.

As with any change, you’re likely to have questions. For answers, contact us at 800-915-9424 or visit our resource page, which includes FAQs, a comparison of CS6 and Creative Cloud, and other useful information.

Thank you for your business, and we look forward to creating more great things together.

Source: http://www.larryjordan.biz/app_bin/wordpress/archives/2493

And so it begins. Adobe willl and must go all out now, and force users' hands to wtich to CC no matter what. No more CS6.
A sad day. I am glad I switched to other software 19 months ago,

raymondtrace
04-15-2014, 01:32 PM
That is a statement about volume licensing. It still looks like single seat perpetual CS6 licenses can be obtained on adobe.com... but I would not assume for long.

GandB
04-15-2014, 01:55 PM
They're getting desperate now.

Tranimatronic
04-15-2014, 03:17 PM
In what looks like a fantastic "We are with you, brothers!" show of solidarity, Autodesk has just sent me pretty much the same "subscription or nothing" email:


Transformation is coming
Free Maintenance Subscription for a year with select upgrades until April 25, 2014*

Beginning February 1, 2015, Autodesk will no longer offer the option to purchase upgrade licenses of its software. New versions will be available through purchase of a new license for the current version or as a Maintenance Subscription benefit.

Many customers already choose Subscription so they always have the very latest software at their fingertips. And from now until April 25, 2014, Autodesk is offering Subscription for a year at no charge when you upgrade select software.

Act today to get the latest release, support, and licensing rights - along with a predictable, cost-effective way to stay current.



Unfortunately, there is no option to reply to this email. Otherwise I would have typed something like "No thanks. I'm going to buy Houdini instead."

GandB
04-15-2014, 03:20 PM
Lol; they really are deaf, dumb and blind. Hubris.

Megalodon2.0
04-15-2014, 03:24 PM
Things are beginning to look better.

In what way exactly, apart from letting off a bit of steam?

Their profits are down and so is their stock. With discontent still high on MANY forums - including their own - the anger is not going away.

“Adobe’s been getting a lot of credit for their migration to the cloud,” said Josh Olson, an analyst at Edward Jones & Co. who has a hold rating on the stock. “They have yet to really demonstrate the profitability of the model.”

And I hope that they cannot show that profitability. Of course they probably CAN, but then they may have to reduce subscription pricing even more to entice additional users - which is something that they do not want to do. They want to increase pricing. Well... hopefully they fall flat on their face. Time will tell.

Tranimatronic
04-15-2014, 03:28 PM
I pressed this one instead:

Email Opt-Out


I do not wish to receive any further email from Autodesk.
Please opt my email address out of your mailing list.


Submit

I just wish the last word was a command instead of an option. Oh well ;)

souzou
04-15-2014, 03:33 PM
Unfortunately, there is no option to reply to this email. Otherwise I would have typed something like "No thanks. I'm going to buy Houdini instead."

If you are condsidering it, bear in mind with Houdini that if you don't buy the annual upgrade plan ($2495 for HFX) you lose access to upgrades and will have to re-buy the software if you want a new version. I don't find their pricing policy that much better than AD or Adobe tbh.

gerry_g
04-15-2014, 03:46 PM
All you luddites (when I typed they the spell checker changed it to 'ladies', who knows probably a better choice) rejoice as much as you like but the Adobe CC version is in better shape and more feature rich than the perpetual license version and fixes numerous bugs for me, I would imagine the Autodesk subscription version that is imminent will likely be a better product than that which it replaces too and a much better way to trial the software as I can rent it out as I see fit, the notion that over time some one is going to cave eventually may be true, only question is will it be you because you've been left trailing way behind or them due to their eroded profit margins, enjoy the gamble

Tranimatronic
04-15-2014, 03:53 PM
If you are condsidering it, bear in mind with Houdini that if you don't buy the annual upgrade plan ($2495 for HFX) you lose access to upgrades and will have to re-buy the software if you want a new version. I don't find their pricing policy that much better than AD or Adobe tbh.

oh bollocks!

Tranimatronic
04-15-2014, 04:18 PM
I would imagine the Autodesk subscription version that is imminent will likely be a better product than that which it replaces too

Imaginations are wonderful things. Although historically, for Autodesk updates, your imagination would not always be correct (Maya2011 for example).
Only time will tell I guess.

Megalodon2.0
04-15-2014, 04:23 PM
the notion that over time some one is going to cave eventually may be true, only question is will it be you because you've been left trailing way behind or them due to their eroded profit margins, enjoy the gamble
What gamble?

Are you thinking that those of us against this forced subscription are waiting for Adobe to cave? How many people do you think are still using CS3 versions? Or earlier? And many professionals have already moved or are in the process of moving over to alternative software. Adobe may be market dominant, but they are not the best.

I simply want Adobe to fail because it will end up being BETTER for EVERYONE if they do. Simple. Allow the customer CHOICE.

GandB
05-08-2014, 09:17 PM
Just bringing this topic back into view. Thanks to Chuck for agreeing to it.

kopperdrake
05-09-2014, 03:33 AM
Agreed - still haven't decided which way to go and it seems time is running out. I'm tempted to upgrade my Production Premium 5.5 to 6 and be done with it for a couple or more years. I only eve really upgraded every two or three major releases, but to an extent I'm going to be dictated to by the ad/design agencies we work alongside. I'm currently asking them what their stance is, but personally I'm particularly worried about older projects becoming obsolete on my hard drive. The money thing is less of an issue, but the fact the choice is no longer there for me to withold upgrading irks me somewhat - it's one more thing I can not control as a small business owner.

JBT27
05-09-2014, 04:03 AM
If you are condsidering it, bear in mind with Houdini that if you don't buy the annual upgrade plan ($2495 for HFX) you lose access to upgrades and will have to re-buy the software if you want a new version. I don't find their pricing policy that much better than AD or Adobe tbh.

Correct. There are packages I would love to use, if only they were on subscription - money is important. We have two Adobe CC licenses - it means we have the latest and can afford it. The year before CC, I made the huge 'mistake' of upgrading to the Master Collection - that cost me £2,500 - I had older versions of Adobe this, not so old versions of that, needed the new version of something else, so I plumbed for a complete upgrade. And used it. Then when the first year offer of £23 something a month appeared, I bought into that, because frankly it was a snip and kept me current. Now at full rate, it's about £588 per annum for the latest Adobe everything (almost), times two for us - that we can run. Thousands times two, every two or three years? Nope. Do we need the latest and greatest? Probably not. But on the old model, it's more expensive to gradually go more and more out of date, then suddenly upgrade, and it's a heavy capital hit. Subscription, on any software, is predictable, you can budget for it.

I don't know if it's economically viable for Adobe. Us not buying anything off them probably is not. I may have it wrong, but subscription works for me, despite recognising the potential pitfalls, but then that applies to all developers, large and small. I have machines full of expensive software from two and a half decades of working, some I hardly used, some wasn't worth it, some was downright rubbish, some stopped development - I'd rather trickle fund a developer and see progress and a degree of stability. But like I say, whether that ultimately works for the big corporate developers time will tell.

Julian.

sadkkf
05-09-2014, 01:18 PM
Adobe's CC has always been about money. All of the reasons they provided for offering subscription-only software were not true. The costs of producing and distributing the CS suites were negligible. I downloaded mine. That's how CC is distributed. I get periodic updates. That's how CC works.

The fundamental difference is paying perpetually and owning nothing, or paying all at once and owning a license I can use perpetually.

Yes, I'm angry at Adobe, hate being lied to, but I understand some people prefer this model. Fine. I still maintain Adobe can fare better by offering both models. Why not offer a perpetual license that's a couple of versions back? Seriously, Adobe was always slow at adding useful features and often, I thought, added useless features marketed as "ground breaking" or something to justify the upgrade. I still cringe at video editing in Photoshop. That really jumped the shark for me.

I prefer owning my licenses so I have software to open my files long after I've purchased the software that helped me create them. Keep in mind, I get free access to CC through my day job, too, but never use it.

spherical
05-09-2014, 03:36 PM
The year before CC, I made the huge 'mistake' of upgrading to the Master Collection - that cost me £2,500 - I had older versions of Adobe this, not so old versions of that, needed the new version of something else, so I plumbed for a complete upgrade.

Not so bad for you. We made the jump from CS2 & Video Collection to CS6 Master Collection when our economy in the studio had finally revived enough to pull the $$$ together to get back up to speed. Less than 90 DAYS later, Adobe springs CC on everybody, clear out of the blue. No warning. No opportunity for preparation. Only vague indications here and there, recognizable now that the truth is known. Had we full disclosure, as long time registered license holders, since PS 3/Illustrator 2/Pagemaker, that CC was going to be an OPTION coming in the next year, we probably would have waited for it and bought in. Not providing this information to their customer base was outright arrogant and rude; indicating that they knew it was not going to be well accepted. Downside is, we'd have more money now. The upside is, that we have CS6-level applications to use for the long term; no matter what we decide to do regarding CC in the future. So, it depends upon one's point of view on a given day whether we got hosed or not.

jburford
05-09-2014, 06:57 PM
If you are condsidering it, bear in mind with Houdini that if you don't buy the annual upgrade plan ($2495 for HFX) you lose access to upgrades and will have to re-buy the software if you want a new version. I don't find their pricing policy that much better than AD or Adobe tbh.


I would say the one with the best Upgrade/Pricing/Update Policy is Blender! Then Lightwave.

JBT27
05-10-2014, 04:34 AM
Blender's model is always hard to beat :) NT have it right, to the point of generosity, providing NT survive operating like that. Adobe, on the other hand, need to balance things better. My take is far from fan-boy - we need the tools and we acquire them in the way that best suits our pockets, but like spherical, I am far from happy with what happened those months leading up to CC - we have had and are having a tough time; money is not spent lightly, and it's a devil trying to manage being productive and reasonably current. Our recent purchase of new machines after six years or so became essential, and luckily we had the capital to do that. But in truth, the long term model for CC is not great, because in common parlance we are over a barrel. Shelling out that £588 or so per year per CC seat (for us) starts to pall when there is no innovation, no improvement in features and workflow; I don't expect to pay an ongoing rent for a house that is falling apart, and that also applies to my software.

It suits us right now and is the only way to keep going and keep current, for us and our clients, but that can change, which is something hopefully Adobe are well aware of. It's actually more than business and money.

Julian.

Megalodon2.0
05-11-2014, 12:51 AM
More good news...

"If you look at Apple’s website showing Apple’s upcoming Mac Pro, click on the “Performance” tab at the top of the web page, and scroll down the web page until you encounter the “design and layout” section.

You’ll notice something interesting. In the past, Apple has extensively used Adobe Photoshop to show how much faster the new Macs models are compared to the previous Macs models.

Not any more. Apple is now using Pixelmator 3."

http://macdailynews.com/2013/10/23/apple-shuns-photoshop-in-favor-of-pixelmator-3-to-show-off-mac-pro-performance/

Love some of the comments too...

gerry_g
05-11-2014, 03:59 AM
New Mac Pros may not have Nvida cards or Cuda support but Adobes Mercury engine runs in Premier and AE CC on these machines which is won't in Creative Suit 6 (unless you have a supported Nvidia card), so both the New Mac Pros and Adobe CC will give you far more than the older software and hardware combo will, and CC has better features and is being added to which tho old one isn't, Apple just have a bad case of the A-holes ATM, Adobe stuff is very fast on there machines and Apple are just pissed about the whole open CL thing and it being slow to gain traction and childishly showcasing the handful of programs that are using it like thats going to fool every one, but I suppose thats no argument at all

Sekhar
05-11-2014, 01:13 PM
Adobe's CC has always been about money.

Absolutely. Luckily for us, other companies aren't about money...just imagine the situation if all the for-profit firms were looking for profit!

Megalodon2.0
05-11-2014, 02:32 PM
Absolutely. Luckily for us, other companies aren't about money...just imagine the situation if all the for-profit firms were looking for profit!

And just imagine if ALL of the for profit firms were looking to make sure that you HAD to keep paying them in order to open your old files?

As most people on the Adobe forums and other forums have already discussed ad nauseum, it's not really about the money at all. If people want to believe that, fine. We'll just see how Adobe continues to fare. Fortunately their stock price has tanked recently and is now back to where it was in early February. And the trend is DOWN. I don't want to see Adobe die, I want to see them forced to re-instate the CHOICE to own or rent. Some people want to rent - that's fine. Some people want to buy - and they should have that choice. In the end, having choice will only benefit EVERYONE. And I find it sad for those who can't see that.

pauland
05-11-2014, 03:51 PM
I think the only sad thing is good people potentially falling out over something they have no control or influence over.

Megalodon2.0
05-11-2014, 04:16 PM
I think the only sad thing is good people potentially falling out over something they have no control or influence over.

Really? You honestly think that we have no influence over Adobe? Check out the Adobe forums and see how many disgruntled PROFESSIONALS are voicing their opinion. Check out Adobe revenue DOWN and their stock prices are finally DOWN. Unless people stand up against what is wrong, then you are right - we won't have control. Of course if you are willing to be led by the nose, then by all means... do nothing and accept it. ;)

From the Adobe Forums:

"Adobe has shown they are worried by the "noise." They release customer surveys which are geared to be pro CC rather than getting real world feedback from their users and they cut off commenting on their youtube FB page for Adobe TV when it became overwhelmingly negative. The noise is far greater than just noise. I work in the film industry (post production) and there are a lot of P**sed off former Adobe loyalists/customers who won't be coming back as long as a subscription plan is the only choice. I'm sure Adobe is confident many will return eventually to subscribe - I have no doubt Adobe will be disappointed with just how few return."

pauland
05-11-2014, 05:05 PM
I get your opinion and I understand it. I don't get why you have to be disrespectful to others that don't feel as you do.

Re-iterating the same info is just tedious.

You are welcome to your opinion and I hope that Adobe reinstates the options that you want. In the meantime, we both have to live with the choices that we have, not the ones that we'd like.

hrgiger
05-11-2014, 06:24 PM
In the meantime, we both have to live with the choices that we have, not the ones that we'd like.

Precisely.

Megalodon2.0
05-11-2014, 06:34 PM
I get your opinion and I understand it. I don't get why you have to be disrespectful to others that don't feel as you do.

Re-iterating the same info is just tedious.

You are welcome to your opinion and I hope that Adobe reinstates the options that you want.
Disrespectful? Where?


In the meantime, we both have to live with the choices that we have, not the ones that we'd like.


Precisely.
And we also fight FOR the choices we want, not bend over and simply accept it. But you both of course are welcome to YOUR opinions as well.

aSkeptic
05-14-2014, 09:12 PM
woah that's uglier than my app sales :D

tyrot
05-15-2014, 05:12 AM
New Mac Pros may not have Nvida cards or Cuda support but Adobes Mercury engine runs in Premier and AE CC on these machines which is won't in Creative Suit 6 (unless you have a supported Nvidia card), so both the New Mac Pros and Adobe CC will give you far more than the older software and hardware combo will, and CC has better features and is being added to which tho old one isn't, Apple just have a bad case of the A-holes ATM, Adobe stuff is very fast on there machines and Apple are just pissed about the whole open CL thing and it being slow to gain traction and childishly showcasing the handful of programs that are using it like thats going to fool every one, but I suppose thats no argument at all

totally agree

jburford
05-16-2014, 03:22 AM
Pixelmator 3 looks nice! Is there anything like that on the PC?

Rayek
05-16-2014, 03:33 AM
Pixelmator 3 looks nice! Is there anything like that on the PC?

There is much better than that on both Mac and Windows: Photoline. Pixelmator can't touch that.

And then there is Krita (open source) for superior painting. Windows and Linux. They are working on a mac version.

sculptactive
05-18-2014, 05:36 AM
Photoline +1

tyrot
05-18-2014, 10:45 AM
thankssssss so much rayek... i started to use photoline and i simply liked it. awesome app.. need a website urgently ...that s all.. anyone who reads this thread give photoline a go... where the hell i was....

Rayek
05-18-2014, 01:41 PM
And I am also very much anticipating the arrival of DaVinci Resolve 11. Looks like a game changer!

Rayek
05-18-2014, 01:46 PM
thankssssss so much rayek... i started to use photoline and i simply liked it. awesome app.. need a website urgently ...that s all.. anyone who reads this thread give photoline a go... where the hell i was....

Yeah, Photoline is very, very good. It has its quirks, but so does Photoshop. The only thing I miss in Photoline is spot channel support (although I have to say I almost never use those). And of course some Photoshop-only plugins. For my 3d painting/texturing I use 3dCoat (Photoshop's 3d is horrendous anyway, so...).

AbstractTech3D
05-23-2014, 04:59 PM
Yes, DaVince Resolve 11 (and onwards) looks like the future of editing.
I say that as an Avid editor of 12+ years experience. Plus a few months with Premiere Pro. Dismayed at being pushed into a licensing corner by both of those guys.

It looks like it has, or soon will have all capabilities, and sales will not be inhibited by unacceptable licensing terms.

Avid and Adobe could have a hard time competing against free.
(Perhaps its time they started paying me to use their software!)

i8yourADOBElol
05-30-2014, 08:21 AM
hey I apologize for asking this off topic question.
Photoshop is great. So is GIMP. What programs do you recommend that blend photoshop with a 3d program?

pauland
05-30-2014, 09:03 AM
hey I apologize for asking this off topic question.
Photoshop is great. So is GIMP. What programs do you recommend that blend photoshop with a 3d program?

Better start your own thread, perhaps?

hrgiger
06-18-2014, 12:45 PM
http://online.wsj.com/articles/adobe-profit-rises-16-1403038631 Adobe subscriptions up to 2.3 million.

Megalodon2.0
06-18-2014, 01:47 PM
http://online.wsj.com/articles/adobe-profit-rises-16-1403038631 Adobe subscriptions up to 2.3 million.

Oh now THAT sucks. ;)

Rayek
06-18-2014, 06:37 PM
Interesting to see the new key feature comparison tables for all products. Even more telling is how Adobe left out any comparisons with the previous two CC versions. Because there is not that much new to celebrate.

I now understand fully why Adobe was/is so desperate to switch to the CC subscription-only model: if they had stuck with the old license model there would have been very little incentive to update.

And why is Photoshop CC STILL having issues with high-ppi screens? The Photoshop team must have been quite desperate to get something out of the door in that respect: Photoshop now introduces a so-called "experimental" mode which is fundamentally opening up alpha/beta features to the common users. In experimental (beta) mode a 200% GUI scaling option is finally available - but it is rather roughly implemented.

Sigh, and the new Adobe website is a rather lack-luster experience as well. Completely mobile oriented. The desktop version could at least have had retained the more traditional header section, instead of moving all navigation in an awkward pop-up.

jeric_synergy
06-18-2014, 07:10 PM
I don't mind much about CC.... but it pisses me off that Bridge works like rubbish on one's secondary monitor. WTF?

gerry_g
06-19-2014, 04:22 AM
"Adobe left out any comparisons with the previous two CC versions. Because there is not that much new to celebrate. "

They fixed the Lasso Tool what more could you ask for, well actually seeing as how I've been forced to use the broken one all week this is a god send.......now if only I could encode anything in in Premiere on my my Mac pro in Mavericks without all the glitching and banding that would be really kind of cool

BigHache
06-19-2014, 06:00 AM
Adobe FINALLY fixed the Smart Guides in Illustrator. This has been broken since v10 or v11. You try to align artwork to a specific point or line and it would only snap to art that it felt like choosing, which usually wasn't even on the screen. Premiere finally got some version of a media manager to reconnect offline media when you open a project. Too bad it's slow as molasses. I spend most of my time in AE but it does feel like it received the most love.

I could go on and on about the stack of little things that add up to a user experience that has caused my department to daily declare, "I just got Adobe'd", when something suddenly breaks or stops working for no determinable reason. Fixing these things would be great but it's not new features.

Megalodon2.0
01-05-2015, 11:17 AM
More "good" news from/for Adobe:

126416

The worse they do, the better ultimately for their customers.

kopperdrake
01-06-2015, 03:16 AM
If those figures are real then that's worrying, for them. I'd like to see another two years' worth of chart before saying anything definite though - that'd be four years of old customers, like myself, holding off from joining the system. I'd say after four years, most of those likely to eventually jump on board will have done so. Then we'll get a true idea of Adobe's profitability under this new regime.

Of course, if their profits have dropped that much, and remain consistent at that level, then all they really need to do to survive is work on upgrades to the level of the income, ie smaller upgrades. If they knew their product development was becoming a bit stagnant anyway - prior to the Cloud shift, then they've done the right thing. Even if someone produces a Photoshop killer, or a must-have Editor, many people will still plod on with their subscription as Adobe have so many 'industry standard' applications that it won't hurt to have a subscription. I would find it hard to hold out indefinitely from moving to the Cloud, but I'm happy playing the waiting game for as long as my clients are happy sending us older file formats to work from. At some stage that will become unworkable though, and I couldn't risk upsetting clients.

Dirty Adobe.

JBT27
01-06-2015, 05:26 AM
I'd also like to see equivalent graphs from competing companies and products to try to see why Adobe's profits have plummeted, aside from the obvious one of people not upgrading and not subscribing to CC. One CC license costs the same as a Master Suite perpetual license upgrade once every four years or so, ie. the CC sub for four years is about the same. It's going to take some years to settle down so that we and Adobe know what's what. Meanwhile, I'm keeping an eye on what Blackmagic Design are doing; releasing the 'basic' version of Fusion for free is about as radical a business move as we've seen in recent years.