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View Full Version : If you're about to build a new computer, you might want to wait a few months....



Sebasvideo
03-20-2014, 02:42 PM
http://www.neowin.net/news/intel-announces-its-first-i7-8-core-extreme-edition-processor

Sensei
03-20-2014, 06:08 PM
There is always "a few months to". Always.. ;)

UnCommonGrafx
03-20-2014, 06:44 PM
Titan Maxwell, Compute 5.... a few months away...

Point!

richcz3
03-20-2014, 06:49 PM
I was looking at building a new PC just the other day just to find out the Intel processor (I7 3770K 3.5G) I bought two years ago had actually gone up by $10. Their new CPU roll outs have slowed and prices on older CPUs have barely budged. There's no doubt that the decline in PC sales has taken its toll. On a positive note, it looks like Intel has embraced the enthusiast and game PC builder to some degree with unlocked multipliers. That's the segment that is likely to bolster some sales albeit nowhere where it has just five years ago.

jeric_synergy
03-20-2014, 07:52 PM
There is always "a few months to". Always.. ;)
2nded.

hrgiger
03-20-2014, 07:53 PM
And as soon as you buy the new 8 core chip, the 10 core chip will be announced a few months later, then a few months after that, Mr. Fusions....

Buy what you need and want now. Or wait if you can.

Sebasvideo
03-20-2014, 08:07 PM
There is always "a few months to". Always.. ;)

Indeed, but this is a big deal regardless. To go from a six core to an 8 core CPU for the desktop, they hadn't done that before. Of course if they come out with some crazy price like $1,500 most people will have to pass, like they pass on the current $1,000 extreme edition in favor of the 4930k.

Lewis
03-20-2014, 11:43 PM
Indeed, but this is a big deal regardless. To go from a six core to an 8 core CPU for the desktop, they hadn't done that before. Of course if they come out with some crazy price like $1,500 most people will have to pass, like they pass on the current $1,000 extreme edition in favor of the 4930k.

I7 39xx and i7 49xx are also 8core CPUs, BUT they had 2 cores disabled on porpose so it's not like they are now sellign us somethign completely new since same that 8core i7 CPU was sold as Xeon back then ;).

They are just "milking us" slowly 'coz they can since AMD is laging behind performance :(.

JonW
03-21-2014, 04:46 AM
I bought my W5580 x 2, box five years ago. The CPUs were about $2k each. To date I haven't needed a new dual CPU box but whould be more than happy to buy a new one if needed. This dinosaur is about the same speed as a 4930. So it has actually worked out to be very economical.

Don't dismiss the top end CPUs. If you price your whole box setup they are actually very economical.

If you have work and need a new box, it's better to get what you need for the work you have now.

Sebasvideo
03-21-2014, 05:24 AM
I7 39xx and i7 49xx are also 8core CPUs, BUT they had 2 cores disabled on porpose so it's not like they are now sellign us somethign completely new since same that 8core i7 CPU was sold as Xeon back then ;).
.

I read that the 3930k has two disabled cores (unfortunately with no way of enabling them) but the 4930k is 6 physical cores. Of course I didn't turn myself into an electron and went inside either of them, so I can't verify that.

Lewis
03-21-2014, 06:18 AM
I read that the 3930k has two disabled cores (unfortunately with no way of enabling them) but the 4930k is 6 physical cores. Of course I didn't turn myself into an electron and went inside either of them, so I can't verify that.

Nahh, it's same system with 2 disabled cores, 4930K is just IB-E like 3930K was SB-E architecture and they have physically 8 cores in chip (E5 26xx Xeons are same that chip but with all 8 cores enabled on top models). But yes sadly there is no way to enable them so effectively it's 6core :).

Sebasvideo
03-21-2014, 06:41 AM
Well, so it is a big deal. Whether the 3930k and successor have 6 or 8 cores physically, going from using 6 cores to 8 cores will speed up renders a lot. My dream is to see a day when we see CPUs that have as many cores as we see graphics cards today with CUDA cores, like 1536 or more. At some point in time, rendering raytracing will be as fast as we can render from After Effects nowadays.

Lewis
03-21-2014, 07:19 AM
Well, so it is a big deal. Whether the 3930k and successor have 6 or 8 cores physically, going from using 6 cores to 8 cores will speed up renders a lot. My dream is to see a day when we see CPUs that have as many cores as we see graphics cards today with CUDA cores, like 1536 or more. At some point in time, rendering raytracing will be as fast as we can render from After Effects nowadays.

I seriously hope it won't be as in AE, Multithreading in AE is pure joke, damn thing starts 32 AEFX.exe on my machine and takes more time to distribute stuff to all cores than rendering 30-40 seconds at single core :).

BTW yes 8 core will be faster than 6 core BUT only if clock speed stays same and it usually isn't, more cores = lower clock so latest Xeon E5 vs with 12cores/24Threads is "only" 2.7GHz while 39xx and 49xx series are 3.5+ GHz and lower core number Xeons v2 are also 3+ GHz. Since it's more or less same architecture then clock per clock ratio is comparable. so it's not just number of cores that counts ;).

P.S. you can buy Quad socket MB and Go with 4 Xeon E7 CPUs and get much more cores like 48c/96t or even more so it's just about money/performance ratio :).

Sebasvideo
03-21-2014, 07:22 AM
I seriously hope it won't be as in AE, Multithreading in AE is pure joke, damn thing starts 32 AEFX.exe on my machine and takes more time to distribute stuff to all cores than rendering 30-40 seconds at single core :).

Yes, I meant as in speed. AE is a poorly coded program. Still, it's usually better to leave that terrible "multithreading" off, because it still uses all the cores with only one process open.

Danner
03-21-2014, 07:52 AM
I've had a dual xeon 16 core box for about a year and a half now (E5 2670). And it's still quite a bit faster than any single cpu box.

I tried Multytrheading on AE and it was so much faster I was feeling dumb for not trying it before. Then errors popped up on the render.. back to single core..

bazsa73
03-21-2014, 12:12 PM
I want a 24 core 128 GB monster with 3 cuda capable videocard plus octane license plus whatever but I have a limited budget. Heck.

Sensei
03-21-2014, 12:24 PM
I want a 24 core 128 GB monster with 3 cuda capable videocard plus octane license plus whatever but I have a limited budget. Heck.

In 2020 you will find it on scrapyard for beer.. ;)

jeric_synergy
03-21-2014, 12:33 PM
Do they actually disable the cores, or do they just find chips where 2 cores DON'T WORK? And then maybe blow a couple fuses onchip?

That is: my faith in technology was badly shaken when I learned that RAM chips are all made in the same process, then SORTED by effective speed: IOW, they don't make slow chips, they FIND slow chips.

Mr. Wilde
03-21-2014, 01:34 PM
Every time I built a desktop PC I had the thought "Eh, in two years, I'm going to just upgrade the CPU". Aaaaand they change the socket.



That is: my faith in technology was badly shaken when I learned that RAM chips are all made in the same process, then SORTED by effective speed: IOW, they don't make slow chips, they FIND slow chips.
Ha, I didn't know that. Sounds pretty insane. :D Is that actually true?

bazsa73
03-21-2014, 02:17 PM
In 2020 you will find it on scrapyard for beer.. ;)

did you know these?
„Polak, Węgier, dwa bratanki, i do szabli, i do szklanki.”
"Polak, Węgier, dwa bratanki / I do szabli, i do szklanki / Oba zuchy, oba żwawi / Niech im Pan Bóg błogosławi." ("Lengyel-magyar két jó barát / Együtt harcol s issza borát / Vitéz s bátor mindkettője / Áldás szálljon mindkettőre."

JonW
03-21-2014, 03:36 PM
Do they actually disable the cores, or do they just find chips where 2 cores DON'T WORK? And then maybe blow a couple fuses onchip?

That is: my faith in technology was badly shaken when I learned that RAM chips are all made in the same process, then SORTED by effective speed: IOW, they don't make slow chips, they FIND slow chips.

My guess is that they are all the same CPU. The top ones are Xeons & depending what doesn't work in them they are relegated to lower speed & or cores. When they pass a test to determine the level of performance the CPU is locked for the number of cores and speed it can manage.

A CPU may have a few less cores and is a bit slower but it still has value. Better than throwing it in the bin.

jeric_synergy
03-22-2014, 03:04 PM
Every time I built a desktop PC I had the thought "Eh, in two years, I'm going to just upgrade the CPU". Aaaaand they change the socket.
Ha, I didn't know that. Sounds pretty insane. :D Is that actually true?
A) Socket: YES, grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr rrrrrrrX10^^5
B) RAM speed: That's what I heard, fwiw. Makes sense: no point in wasting chips that have SOME functionality, just 'cuz they're not perfect. I also 'heard' that sections of RAM chips especially are redundant, so that if a section doesn't work they can just isolate it by blowing 'fuses' internal to the chip and sell it as a perfectly usable albeit smaller memory chip.

So if INTEL makes a CPU and 2/3rds of it work fine, better to sell it as a lesser chip than to just toss it into a landfill.

EDIT: guess I should read the whole thread b4 repeating what JonW said immediately above..... d'oh!

Gregg "T.Rex"
03-22-2014, 04:17 PM
In case anyone's wondering:
A quad cpu Microstation motherboard with four top of the line Xeons (15 cores /30 threads at fastest available clock), with 512GB ECC DDR3 ram, one Quadro K6000, three Tesla K40 cards, a 512SDD for system, a nice box and all extra minor peripherals, PLUS two 4K rez 31.5" Dells, cost around 90.000 euros, more or less...

Though, i'm not so sure current 3D apps can handle 120 threads in one local machine...
Last time i checked LW could "see" up to 64 threads and RealFlow could only reach 48 threads, unfortunately...

Cheers...
Greg

dwburman
03-22-2014, 08:12 PM
In case anyone's wondering:
A quad cpu Microstation motherboard with four top of the line Xeons (15 cores /30 threads at fastest available clock), with 512GB ECC DDR3 ram, one Quadro K6000, three Tesla K40 cards, a 512SDD for system, a nice box and all extra minor peripherals, PLUS two 4K rez 31.5" Dells, cost around 90.000 euros, more or less...

Though, i'm not so sure current 3D apps can handle 120 threads in one local machine...
Last time i checked LW could "see" up to 64 threads and RealFlow could only reach 48 threads, unfortunately...

Cheers...
Greg

So back to the old, multiple screamernet nodes on one box, eh?

jwiede
03-23-2014, 01:35 PM
In case anyone's wondering:
A quad cpu Microstation motherboard with four top of the line Xeons (15 cores /30 threads at fastest available clock), with 512GB ECC DDR3 ram, one Quadro K6000, three Tesla K40 cards, a 512SDD for system, a nice box and all extra minor peripherals, PLUS two 4K rez 31.5" Dells, cost around 90.000 euros, more or less...
Right, but those 2x 4K 31" DELL monitors are a substantial percentage of that total, no? How much for just the box, no monitors? 70K Euro?

Sebasvideo
03-23-2014, 01:43 PM
In case anyone's wondering:
A quad cpu Microstation motherboard with four top of the line Xeons (15 cores /30 threads at fastest available clock), with 512GB ECC DDR3 ram, one Quadro K6000, three Tesla K40 cards, a 512SDD for system, a nice box and all extra minor peripherals, PLUS two 4K rez 31.5" Dells, cost around 90.000 euros, more or less...

If it's for something else I would understand, but if only for Lightwave, why would you want a Quadro K6000 and three Tesla cards? The Teslas are pointless and the Quadro is a choice, but they are grossly overpriced cards compared to regular GTX cards. If it's for Octane, 3 GTX cards in SLI will probably be a lot cheaper and still give you a lot of rendering power.

Gregg "T.Rex"
03-23-2014, 06:17 PM
Right, but those 2x 4K 31" DELL monitors are a substantial percentage of that total, no? How much for just the box, no monitors? 70K Euro?

Nope...
Comparing to the system the Dells are quite "cheap", at 2.5K euro each...

Gregg "T.Rex"
03-23-2014, 06:23 PM
If it's for something else I would understand, but if only for Lightwave, why would you want a Quadro K6000 and three Tesla cards? The Teslas are pointless and the Quadro is a choice, but they are grossly overpriced cards compared to regular GTX cards. If it's for Octane, 3 GTX cards in SLI will probably be a lot cheaper and still give you a lot of rendering power.

Indeed...
I wasn't considering LightWave as the main 3d app, for when quoting for a workstation like that! :)
VRay seems it can swallow all those threads without problems...
In theory at least, as i haven't seen any setup like this (so far) running any state of the art rendering engine...
The gfx cards are there for the double point precision and the tons of RAM they have...

Gregg "T.Rex"
03-23-2014, 06:28 PM
In case you're (still) wondering:
The bare system (motherboard, cpus, ram) was around 55.000 euros...
That's the expensive part; you can always not choose quadro/tesla cards and go for two Titans instead...
Add the (expensive) case, disks, psu, monitors etc. and you would get a final complete workstation at around 65.000 euro...

kopperdrake
03-24-2014, 04:12 AM
I bought my W5580 x 2, box five years ago. The CPUs were about $2k each. To date I haven't needed a new dual CPU box but whould be more than happy to buy a new one if needed. This dinosaur is about the same speed as a 4930. So it has actually worked out to be very economical.

Don't dismiss the top end CPUs. If you price your whole box setup they are actually very economical.

If you have work and need a new box, it's better to get what you need for the work you have now.

This is exactly what I've found - Ł3k on a first generation dual Xeon Mac (around 6 years ago?) runs almost as fast as my i7 2600K. Both are feeling a little dated now, and the 2600K cost a lot less, but I have a feeling that the initial hit on the Mac (now running Windows) was a better investment as it's saved me the hassle of upgrading along the way.

Next time I think I'll definitely look into the higher end workstation CPUs.

dwburman
03-26-2014, 07:30 PM
This is exactly what I've found - Ł3k on a first generation dual Xeon Mac (around 6 years ago?) runs almost as fast as my i7 2600K. Both are feeling a little dated now, and the 2600K cost a lot less, but I have a feeling that the initial hit on the Mac (now running Windows) was a better investment as it's saved me the hassle of upgrading along the way.

Next time I think I'll definitely look into the higher end workstation CPUs.

That's odd because my first gen dual Xeon Mac Pro (1,1 - 2x dual core 2.66 GHz - Made in 2006) is roughly half the speed of my i7 2600 in LightWave rendering. Granted, I don't have Windows on it. My mac pro technically still belongs to a client, I think, but it'd cost more to ship it back than it is worth at this point.