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robertoortiz
03-18-2014, 11:00 AM
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Here it is folks!

http://area.autodesk.com/march18

erikals
03-18-2014, 11:54 AM
Bifrost looks Great! http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/smile.gif


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xB33VVVsHoI

50one
03-18-2014, 11:57 AM
Bifrost looks Great! http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/smile.gif


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xB33VVVsHoI

It's also shockingly slow, not sure what rig you need to get decent performance.

VonBon
03-18-2014, 12:01 PM
LW3DG needs to realize that nowadays Games make people want to enter the world of 3D
more than anything, so they have to start catering to the industry and the "Major" Game Engines, soon.

50one
03-18-2014, 12:09 PM
LW3DG needs to realize that nowadays Games make people want to enter the world of 3D
more than anything, so they have to start catering to the industry and the "Major" Game Engines, soon.

Lw was /is a vfx tool, catering for gaming market would mean changing many aspects within app and to me it looks like they're focusing on something else(re-writing, transition, trying to stay relevant in this field)

erikals
03-18-2014, 01:05 PM
It's also shockingly slow, not sure what rig you need to get decent performance.

it's a fluid deformer, so i wouldn't expect it to be fast...

cresshead
03-18-2014, 03:42 PM
I got the Autodesk Message loud and clear when i looked at the 3dsmax feature list for 3dsmax 2015: ...move to Maya.

hrgiger
03-18-2014, 04:39 PM
Yeah Max looks a bit underwhelming....Perhaps that is their plan to innovate less and less with Max until everyone moves to Maya. Wow, quad chamfer and mesh placement... kind of pales in comparison to BiFrost.

50one
03-18-2014, 04:48 PM
it's a fluid deformer, so i wouldn't expect it to be fast...


Well, I demand this thing to fly on my Windows 98 PC!

Nah, I know it's a physics solver but seriously it's shockingly slow, as it's not giving you an option to compute in a professional manner, rather than showing a progress bar te whole app just goes into calculate mode and become unresponsive with tiny progress bar in the bottom left corner.

UnCommonGrafx
03-18-2014, 04:53 PM
It's not gpu-driven?

robertoortiz
03-18-2014, 05:01 PM
Perhaps that is their plan to innovate less and less with Max until everyone moves to Maya. .

I think it is obvious that the direction the cg market is beign herded in.
But Max is big in the arch viz market, I bet they will bundle it with autocad licenses.

Netvudu
03-18-2014, 05:27 PM
They´re clearly sacrificing Max for anything FX-related.
Maybe I´m a bit biased because I use Houdini AND TESTED THE OLD NAIAD, but to me Bifrost simply looks retarded.
I mean, Naiad nailed the nodes workflow for fluids. For Houdini that´s a given, but Naiad was a new product and its node workflow was fantastic, and when they bring it to Maya...they make it all menu-based and no nodes? what gives??!!
Unless I´m missing something, they "idiotized" Naiad and made it waaaaay less useful. Now once again, in the typical Maya spirit you will need 500 lines of MEL to make anything production-worthy.

thomascheng
03-18-2014, 08:09 PM
Max is having a similar problem to lightwave 9.x I believe they never completed the Excalibur core rewrite project. The last project manager mention that they are fixing the core and after that, they will have more big features coming to max, but he left before there was any status updates to the condition of the rewrite. So I think Max was passed over by Autodesk because Maya has a more modern core and therefore cheaper to move forward in advancements. Plus bigger companies are willing to pay Autodesk to implement new features into Maya.

Albertdup
03-18-2014, 11:10 PM
What’s not in Maya 2015?

A fair amount actually – in this release of Bifröst there is no viscus fluids or surface tension, no smoke or plume style gas sims, no foam and spray (other than what one can do via a workaround), as noted no multi-machine rendering and there is no access to the underlying procedural graph.
While a user cannot access the procedural graph it is actually what the team are using under the hood – ‘in the shadows’ – editing and seeing the graph just does not have a GUI yet. What a user could fully expect is that Autodesk will make this one of the first things to appear in later releases, and Mistry confirms that engineers are working in this area now. As a user I want this since without it I cannot make or edit my own nodes, something Naiad users in particular will want to do.

More here: http://www.fxguide.com/featured/bifrost-exclusive-first-in-depth-look/

Looks like they still have a loooong way to go.

erikals
03-18-2014, 11:41 PM
i see PhoenixFD 2.0 is coming along as well... $1000
http://www.chaosgroup.com/en/2/phoenix.html


http://vimeo.com/67538743

hrgiger
03-19-2014, 02:56 AM
Max is having a similar problem to lightwave 9.x I believe they never completed the Excalibur core rewrite project. The last project manager mention that they are fixing the core and after that, they will have more big features coming to max, but he left before there was any status updates to the condition of the rewrite. So I think Max was passed over by Autodesk because Maya has a more modern core and therefore cheaper to move forward in advancements. Plus bigger companies are willing to pay Autodesk to implement new features into Maya.

Yes, I remember sitting in on one of their webinars about the rewrite. Guess that's not happening anymore. These minor additions in next Max version show no indication of any advancement on that front. Seems Maya is their golden child. Max gets sent to its room without its dinner and they drowned their third child Softimage. AD are not good parents, one should never play favoritism and certainly not infanticide.

safetyman
03-19-2014, 05:49 AM
So, not surprisingly, I'm confused about how AD tacks on all these features. Didn't Maya already have a fluid sim feature? Will Bifrost replace that or is it just another fluid option alongside what Maya had already? Do they do different things?

50one
03-19-2014, 06:10 AM
So, not surprisingly, I'm confused about how AD tacks on all these features. Didn't Maya already have a fluid sim feature? Will Bifrost replace that or is it just another fluid option alongside what Maya had already? Do they do different things?


True, same goes for physics engine, bullet is just another engine included inside:)

Surrealist.
03-19-2014, 07:09 AM
So, not surprisingly, I'm confused about how AD tacks on all these features. Didn't Maya already have a fluid sim feature? Will Bifrost replace that or is it just another fluid option alongside what Maya had already? Do they do different things?

Maya fluids actually were never fluid dynamics and only recently got something that acted as liquid. I think it was last version. Fluids in Maya are basically dynamic volumes. Then there is nParticles which is something else.

Bifrost brings in some significant changes all the way around and it is not at all a similar or overlapping feature. They are really building up the real time feedback aspect of this as well. And as I have it brifrost displays in viewport 2.0. So with this and Open Subdiv they are paving the way into the ream of real time feedback of more advanced features. The current implementation of Bifrost is really just the foundation. So as they open up more of the node based features it will indeed be another thing entirely. I think certainly to start geared more toward a great out of the box set of features that work quickly and easily to get common effects with more advanced features to come. In the mean time there is ICE, or if you prefer, Houdini either of which you would choose for more high end effects that take longer to set up but address more specific and unique production needs.

Rayek
03-19-2014, 10:18 AM
You know, I do not use 3dsMax myself, but browsing through "new features" I really feel sad for its users having to pay through the nose for what basically are new undo buttons, an improved chamfer tool, an improved object placement tool, better point cloud support and a stereo camera (which works best on a specific AMD card, while other things in Max only work with Nvidia)?

Oh, there's shader fx too.

The undo buttons seem to be a big deal, though: they're mentioned first at the very top of the "what's new" document. I guess they must have been very, very hard to implement. Undo buttons are back in fashion, I guess. They are categorized as a new "ease of use" feature.

erikals
03-19-2014, 10:25 AM
first SoftImage, and now Max... :/

incredible... http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/twak.gif

Rayek
03-19-2014, 11:12 AM
It's really hard imagining worse timing at this point than this disastrous Max "upgrade". The new Max product manager is trying to contain things on the CGtalk forum by saying that things will be better "next release".

Megalodon2.0
03-19-2014, 11:38 AM
It's really hard imagining worse timing at this point than this disastrous Max "upgrade". The new Max product manager is trying to contain things on the CGtalk forum by saying that things will be better "next release".

Well... that's pretty much what we got with LW 10 & 10.1.

Fortunately the "next release" WAS in fact much better. I don't see that happening with AD though.

Tropper
03-19-2014, 12:19 PM
Maybe they just do some house cleaning so they will have enought room to buy the next compeditor :P

erikals
03-19-2014, 01:45 PM
It's really hard imagining worse timing at this point than this disastrous Max "upgrade". The new Max product manager is trying to contain things on the CGtalk forum by saying that things will be better "next release".

Agreed... must suck to be a Max / SI user these days... :chicken: :cursin:
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=6&t=1164272

AbnRanger
03-19-2014, 05:43 PM
I got the Autodesk Message loud and clear when i looked at the 3dsmax feature list for 3dsmax 2015: ...move to Maya.Pretty much. Leave behind all those Max plugins you invested in.

jasonwestmas
03-19-2014, 06:31 PM
I think Max has most of the time been heavily 3rd party dependent no matter who was developing for it. Not sure what that means but the direction of max doesn't surprise me much. It's usually been a tool for quick turnaround projects and then you buy 3rd party plugins for more advanced stuff. Users hanging onto old versions of max without upgrading for several years because upgrades were rarely worth it. 3rd party support for max has always been impressive but not cheap by any means.

jasonwestmas
03-19-2014, 07:05 PM
Maya fluids actually were never fluid dynamics and only recently got something that acted as liquid. I think it was last version. Fluids in Maya are basically dynamic volumes. Then there is nParticles which is something else.



nParticles have a fluid dynamic behind them and a way to mesh that but you probably already knew that heh. Obviously biFrost is designed to handle larger data sets and caches.

geo_n
03-19-2014, 07:19 PM
It's usually been a tool for quick turnaround projects and then you buy 3rd party plugins for more advanced stuff. Users hanging onto old versions of max without upgrading for several years because upgrades were rarely worth it. 3rd party support for max has always been impressive but not cheap by any means.

Definitely the case for us. We didn't really need anything more than max 2009 which is still more powerful than anything lux and newtek currently offers plus if you add vray, fumefx, rayfire its a lethal quick turnaround solution.
If both can catch up maybe we will switch again. But going to maya is not an option. It needs a dedicated tech support.

cresshead
03-20-2014, 01:06 AM
As i understand it if you don't renew your subscription you have 364 days after it's due date to jump back onboard...after that you're options end.

So once i can confirm this then i'm not renewing subs in june....i'll wait until max 2016 and then look at that release in march/april 2015 and see if it's worth jumping back onboard or not.

AbnRanger
03-20-2014, 11:03 PM
In all the hub-bub, I do think AD missed a golden opportunity to draw more attention to a heavily overlooked feature in Max 2015. Mental Ray now has it's own VPR/IPR. iRay is largely a very limited (and relatively slow for one) GPU renderer, that is not to be confused as the Interactive mode for Mental Ray in 3ds Max.

This meant that previously, if you wanted to set up a scene to be rendered in Mental Ray, you had no interactivity, whatsoever. Now, you can tweak all the MR materials/shaders, lights and environment and render settings and see interactive updates. In this regard Mental Ray (in Max, anyway), had fallen behind LW's renderer, IMHO. But this development and the fact that MR 3.12 (supposed to be utilized in Max 2015) will introduce GPU calculation options for GI and AO...it seems Mental Ray may have finally gotten the attention it really needed. Master Zap working on MR's implementation in Max is roughly the equivalent of Steve Worley joining the LW dev team.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kiM_5iCYzM

So, it's not all bad news. But if Rob needed a break to go his way, AD is definitely trying to make that happen. Hamstringing their best seller, and killing their most modern and innovative app.

cresshead
03-20-2014, 11:19 PM
In all the hub-bub, I do think AD missed a golden opportunity to draw more attention to a heavily overlooked feature in Max 2015. Mental Ray now has it's own VPR/IPR. iRay is largely a very limited (and relatively slow for one) GPU renderer, that is not to be confused as the Interactive mode for Mental Ray in 3ds Max.

This meant that previously, if you wanted to set up a scene to be rendered in Mental Ray, you had no interactivity, whatsoever. Now, you can tweak all the MR materials/shaders, lights and environment and render settings and see interactive updates. In this regard Mental Ray (in Max, anyway), had fallen behind LW's renderer, IMHO. But this development and the fact that MR 3.12 (supposed to be utilized in Max 2015) will introduce GPU calculation options for GI and AO...it seems Mental Ray may have finally gotten the attention it really needed. Master Zap working on MR's implementation in Max is roughly the equivalent of Steve Worley joining the LW dev team.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kiM_5iCYzM

So, it's not all bad news. But if Rob needed a break to go his way, AD is definitely trying to make that happen. Hamstringing their best seller, and killing their most modern and innovative app.
we'll see how useable they are...their demo's are usually hooked up to a Nvidia tesla board or 2...

AbnRanger
03-21-2014, 12:20 AM
we'll see how useable they are...their demo's are usually hooked up to a Nvidia tesla board or 2...This isn't a GPU interactive renderer...although one would think that with NVidia owning Mental Ray, that would be their area of expertise. The GPU part is the option to let Mental Ray use the GPU to calculate the GI solution and AO. One would presume that the ActiveShade mode would be CPU-based. I think it's a pretty huge development, actually. Mental Ray not having this capability is one reason why I bought a seat of VRay a few years ago, and the Thea Render plugin, recently. I gave up on Mental Ray years ago.

This gives me a reason to use it, now...if I want. The downside to using 3rd part renderers...even VRay, is that you don't get the full benefit of the Nitrous viewport, like you do if you are setting things up with Mental Ray shaders and such. For example, the MR Car shader in the viewport looks a lot like the rendered result. VRay Car paint shaders....not even close.

vncnt
03-21-2014, 07:01 AM
I like their implementation of a bi-colored progressbar behind the timeline.
A clever way to make a clean GUI.

cresshead
03-24-2014, 05:41 PM
I like their implementation of a bi-colored progressbar behind the timeline.
A clever way to make a clean GUI.

not quite sure what you are referring to on this, care to expand on that feature?

allabulle
03-24-2014, 07:30 PM
I think he's referring to how it shows the calculations phase and the cached frames in the timeline when using Naiad. At least it caught my eye too for the same reason vncnt says.

vncnt
03-24-2014, 11:18 PM
Correct.
Our current timeline should be more open for new features like colors/selection/markers/tracks/buttons/submenus.