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erikals
03-16-2014, 07:02 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1WAZzDMQ_4

www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1WAZzDMQ_4#t=0m00s -- UI
www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1WAZzDMQ_4#t=8m20s -- Channel Box
www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1WAZzDMQ_4#t=9m20s -- Good Maya Timeline +
www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1WAZzDMQ_4#t=10m30s - Slow Maya Dopesheet -
www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1WAZzDMQ_4#t=13m00s - Double Keyframes -
www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1WAZzDMQ_4#t=13m30s - Clipping plane issue -
www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1WAZzDMQ_4#t=16m10s - AutoDesk pricing -
www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1WAZzDMQ_4#t=18m00s - Blender pricing +
www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1WAZzDMQ_4#t=21m40s - Maya license -
www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1WAZzDMQ_4#t=24m20s - Constraints -
www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1WAZzDMQ_4#t=28m33s - Maya Blendshapes -
www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1WAZzDMQ_4#t=32m50s - PaintFX +
www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1WAZzDMQ_4#t=37m10s - Maya Render -
www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1WAZzDMQ_4#t=45m00s - Blender Seperate Events +
www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1WAZzDMQ_4#t=49m00s - Maya Seperate Events -
www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1WAZzDMQ_4#t=54m00s - Maya Jobs +
www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1WAZzDMQ_4#t=55m15s - LW Virtual Studio +


My note; this video covers only a fraction of Maya's + and -

Tropper
03-17-2014, 07:07 AM
Doesn't look like a fair comparison to me. He is used to use Blender and new to Maya - so of course Blender is much easier to use for him. And the old argument XYZ sucks because it cost a lot of money and ABC is good because it is free is just stupid. That argument is only true if you make none or just very little money using the
software. If you make good money using a certain software on a daily basis it is way more important how good a software fits into your workflow.

Just my opinion of course... :-)

Ernest
03-17-2014, 07:35 AM
If you make good money using a certain software on a daily basis...
Nobody makes really good money in VFX these days ;)

Tropper
03-17-2014, 08:00 AM
Nobody makes really good money in VFX these days ;)

Touché :-D

safetyman
03-17-2014, 09:59 AM
And the old argument XYZ sucks because it cost a lot of money and ABC is good because it is free is just stupid. That argument is only true if you make none or just very little money using the
software. If you make good money using a certain software on a daily basis it is way more important how good a software fits into your workflow.

Just my opinion of course... :-)

I think the very fact that you can compare the two based on price or not is a very good argument. It's 1000% easier for me to get FOSS approved than software that costs thousands of dollars, and I can do anything for my job in Blender that I can in Maya or 3DS Max. If Blender was the same price as Maya, you might be right about one being better than the other, but since Blender is 100% free, and you can do most of the same things -- that is a very good argument to me.

Surrealist.
03-17-2014, 10:58 AM
There is really nothing to dispute. Maya has the tools it has. Blender has the tools it has. Choose the one that has the tools you need. There are only a few things that compare fairly closely. Everything else is miles apart. Some things don't exist at all in one or the other. All apps are drastically different in some way. And while some people could shift between one app and another without feeling the difference, that is not a proper review in my opinion. A proper review is to look at all of the features of each app and see which ones fit your needs the best. The more you are specific with what you need. Or the more time you spend working on a particular feature and realize the limitations, the more the gap widens between one app and another.

erikals
03-17-2014, 11:00 AM
i wouldn't get caught up in the price comparison in this video.

it's more interesting to see what pitfalls Maya has,
unfortunately, i guess, he only covered a fraction of them.

bringing up the price is valid though, being a freelancer Maya is going to cost you $6000 in just 2 years...


comparison videos are far from perfect, never the less, i thought it was an interesting watch...

being reminded of gotchas is good,
hopefully we'll see more, knowing where the pitfalls are hidden is important too...

cresshead
03-17-2014, 11:43 AM
so 17mins and 17 seconds in....wrong!

subscription is around £430 plus vat for 3dsmax per year not £2650...plus vat...
F.a.c.t.s...use them!


also student (non commercial use) is FREE unlike lightwave or modo.
ZERO cost for a 3 year licence as you learn it.

Rayek
03-17-2014, 11:50 AM
Funny how he mentions he's doing an Animation Mentor course currently, and that got him to have to use Maya again for animating characters: A couple of years ago I did a iAnimate course, and I tried to get to grips with Maya's animation tools, but they all felt clunky to me. The small timeline in Maya, though, is way better. I think he is correct in saying it can be improved a lot in BL.

One thing, however, you tend to do a lot while animating is selecting keys, frames, objects, controller objects, and so on, and moving, rotating and scaling those. In Blender you have a choice to drag physically with the mouse while holding down the mouse button, OR you activate dragging with a simple shortcut key, and move the mouse only. Then click to confirm and set. No need to hold down a mouse button while performing an transform or translate action - and that is very, very comfortable on your hand. It also makes you more precise, since I can move the mouse cursor completely out of the way, and focus on the movements. I love that. No cursor in your way while you try to animate an eye lid.

I was really lucky to have one other student use blender, and he converted all the iAnimate Maya characters to identical Blender rigs. I just thought, while looking at the iAnimate demonstration videos that certain things were kinda clunky in Maya (animating that is).

erikals
03-17-2014, 12:00 PM
so 17mins and 17 seconds in....wrong!

subscription is around £430 plus vat for 3dsmax per year not £2650...plus vat...

is the AutoDesk website showing the wrong price?

cresshead
03-17-2014, 12:11 PM
is the AutoDesk website showing the wrong price?

autodesk are these days activly trying to persuade artists to go onto yearly subscription to get the next version...which comes out every year anyhow now...
upgrades used to be £700 VS subs of £300...now they upped upgrade to put people off and go subscription no one in their right mind would 'upgrade' each year.

to upgrade each you you go on subscription simple as that.

cresshead
03-17-2014, 12:15 PM
regards cameras..i'm not sure but i think it's like 3dsmax where maya can render from any view

so unlike lightewave which HAS to render thru a 'camera' 3dsmax can render the left, top, perspective view, looking thru a light....or indeed a camera...
so it's more open...which naturally means you have to SELECT the 'view' or camera.

not sure on maya again but max can render the timeline switching cameras in 1 render session so you get the 'edit'

Rayek
03-17-2014, 12:26 PM
so 17mins and 17 seconds in....wrong!

subscription is around £430 plus vat for 3dsmax per year not £2650...plus vat...
F.a.c.t.s...use them!


also student (non commercial use) is FREE unlike lightwave or modo.
ZERO cost for a 3 year licence as you learn it.

I don't know where you got that number: I checked the UK site, and a new perpetual license seat costs you a whopping £3,795 (inc vat) - and an additional subscription for more flexible licensing an additional £644. And if you do not keep upgrading you lose the right to upgrade to the newest version at reduced upgrade cost.

The subscription (rental) version of 3dsMax will cost you £205 per month, or still a rather hefty £1650 per year - without any "advanced" support. If you add in the advanced support it's going to be £35 more per month. That is a subscription (rental), however, not a perpetual license. You should be comparing the perpetual license version to Blender in my opinion, since Blender is a license you own and can use forever without additional rental costs involved. And that is what he had in mind, I think.

Where did you get that figure from? I checked http://store.autodesk.co.uk/store/adsk/en_GB/html/pbPage.All-Product-Listing_en_GB
Only the crippled Maya LT comes close to your number (

The student version cannot be used to do any commercial work at all - so while you are learning in that three years time, the student learning Blender can go ahead and start taking on some real work to finance his learning ;-) (Of course this is not black and white: the Maya user could in principle start working as an intern in a studio that uses Maya). Sort of comparing apples with tomatoes, and all that.

BTW, Cresshead: why on earth do you Brits pay such an extra premium on the same products? It's verging on the edge of ridiculousness!


*edit* Oh, you answered some of my questions earlier. I should type faster ;-)

erikals
03-17-2014, 12:28 PM
to upgrade each you you go on subscription simple as that.

that is, simple for someone who already knows.
i certainly can see how he missed it.

Rayek
03-17-2014, 12:33 PM
that is, simple for someone who already knows.
i certainly can see how he missed it.

I agree - and I still feel one should be comparing perpetual licenses. The rental model just does not come close enough to the freedom and flexibility of Blender's free to use infinitely (in time and installations).

cresshead
03-17-2014, 12:35 PM
that is, simple for someone who already knows.
i certainly can see how he missed it.

yeh a casual glance at that page might lead you to that but if you're going to do a Verses...you should not be too biased in your research to only look skin deep on maya and in great depth on blender!
or maybe just put a note in there to...i think this is correct..tell me if i'm mistaken.


and btw i love what blender is doing..its showing EVERYONE up from autocash to houdini to cinema 4d to modo...the flippin lot.
i'd also add in that blender has a maya selectable hot key option as well as 3dsmax if you don't want to use that non standard fudge of default select with right mouse button!

cresshead
03-17-2014, 12:37 PM
I do have a question regards character animation in blender..

does it have animation layering like 3dsmax , softimage and maya?
doe blender have a non linear editor to load up animation clips and blend on to another like in softimage..or in maya you'd use the TRAX editor
or in 3dsmax you'd use c.a.t or workbench in biped.

Darksuit
03-17-2014, 12:39 PM
Any application can be clunky and cumbersome if you are not familiar with it. Their is a lot of power behind the scenes in Maya if you know how to use it to your advantage. This can take a lot of the workflow issues out of animating. Really it comes down to familiarity and how you want to animate.

Not being familiar with Blender, I find it clunky and cumbersome, while I find my own Maya interface setup Sleek and clean. But then I have been working with Maya since 1999.
So I have had a fair bit of time to get used to it.

If you don't have an equal knowledge of both applications you are reviewing then there is a lot you are missing. For instance the review of the Channel box, just has be face palm. There are many different ways to do this in Maya. Off hand it looks like he is using just the standard channel box, and only the General toolbar open and not the Animation or Custom Toolbar open. For the channel box, this is just a personal preference but spacers, spacers, spacers. Technical artists you can put spacers in your channel boxes to break up categories. It pains me to see sloppy Maya setups like this.

It also does not appear that he has an actor setup. In Maya if you're going to be keying certain things on a regular basis, you can simply macro those and push them to a hot key to make your life soo much easier. The same is true for pretty much any application that includes Lightwave!

bobakabob
03-17-2014, 12:41 PM
Funny how he mentions he's doing an Animation Mentor course currently, and that got him to have to use Maya again for animating characters: A couple of years ago I did a iAnimate course, and I tried to get to grips with Maya's animation tools, but they all felt clunky to me. The small timeline in Maya, though, is way better. I think he is correct in saying it can be improved a lot in BL.

One thing, however, you tend to do a lot while animating is selecting keys, frames, objects, controller objects, and so on, and moving, rotating and scaling those. In Blender you have a choice to drag physically with the mouse while holding down the mouse button, OR you activate dragging with a simple shortcut key, and move the mouse only. Then click to confirm and set. No need to hold down a mouse button while performing an transform or translate action - and that is very, very comfortable on your hand. It also makes you more precise, since I can move the mouse cursor completely out of the way, and focus on the movements. I love that. No cursor in your way while you try to animate an eye lid.

I was really lucky to have one other student use blender, and he converted all the iAnimate Maya characters to identical Blender rigs. I just thought, while looking at the iAnimate demonstration videos that certain things were kinda clunky in Maya (animating that is).

It's all subjective of course but IMHO the animation tools in Maya are anything but clunky. I'm using Maya for work related stuff and Lightwave at home. If you're up against a deadline, there are scripts for Maya e.g. Advanced Skeleton that enable you to build very powerful and flexible rigs in minutes. Controllers and inverse IK make animating a pleasure (that is following a good session of weight painting).

I must say, all credit to the LW3DG, Genoma feels just as fast and intuitive. Also I do think Lightwave's bones are underestimated in how 'intelligent' and fast they are to rig with default settings. I've rigged bipeds with Genoma adding say just a couple of extra hold bones in the torso and maybe one in the cranium without any need for weights at all. Whereas the same character meshes in Maya need a dose of precision weight mapping or they turn into soggy puddings. Would other Maya users confirm this?

Of course an advantage of Maya is corrective blendshapes but the 3rdPowers plugins for LW are a huge leap in the right direction.

I hope Lino continues to build on Genoma, it's a very strong tool. Advanced Skeleton has a walk cycle generator with loads of parameters - in its infancy but it's very good fun and will be very useful in tight deadlines. If some of these features are considered for Lightwave Genoma will engage users even more.

Then of course there's RHiggit (yet to try but looks amazing). Exciting times :)

cresshead
03-17-2014, 12:41 PM
BTW, Cresshead: why on earth do you Brits pay such an extra premium on the same products? It's verging on the edge of ridiculousness!


*edit* Oh, you answered some of my questions earlier. I should type faster ;-)

because people in the E.U and the u.k. are paid less and live in lower standard so therefore we need to pay more for extras like translating the software into english so we can understand it
unlike the americans who are bi lingual and can speak american but also have a fair grasp of english too.

(sarcasm 110% on btw)

oh and...modo cost MORE in the u.k. even though it's a uk product...
and adobe apps when they used to be sold boxed were 2.5 times the cost of USA...great!


re lightwave...seeing as this is a lightwave forum!
re Genoma...i hope the autorigger will at some point be in layout not modeller.

Rayek
03-17-2014, 01:15 PM
I do have a question regards character animation in blender..

does it have animation layering like 3dsmax , softimage and maya?
doe blender have a non linear editor to load up animation clips and blend on to another like in softimage..or in maya you'd use the TRAX editor
or in 3dsmax you'd use c.a.t or workbench in biped.

Yes, Blender has a NLA editor to mix action clips. Action clips can be blended with add, replace, multiply and substract with a slider for influence. And much more, of course: modifiers can be applied, and the influence can be animated as well.

It's very simple to use.
http://wiki.blender.org/index.php/Doc:2.6/Manual/Animation/Editors/NLA

Jeez, in regards to your prices: yikes! And here I thought the Netherlands were bad at occasion.

@Darksuit: you are correct - comparisons can be so incredibly relative. And we all have our own workflow preferences. For instance, I love Blender's GUI (for the most part, there are some glaring omissions), and never could get along with Maya (and believe me, I tried in the past!) or Zbrush. Lightwave: no issues there. It has a good feel, though I wish the GUI would be more configurable - as it stands, it's quite rigid. 3dsMax: it's okay, but I'd rather hit nails with a rock. Modo: Nah, doesn't feel right to me. C4D: no issues there. I really like 3dCoat too.

Ryan Roye
03-17-2014, 03:08 PM
Genoma...i hope the autorigger will at some point be in layout not modeller.

I can only agree with this if there are editing methods that can equate to modeler functionality. For example, if I want to modify the rest length of every single bone in a character rig with a single action and be able to use things like the magnet tool to adjust groups of bones to "sculpt" the result, it isn't something that one can easily do in layout. This is in part why Genoma/skelegons being in modeler are in many ways advantageous when adapting bones to characters. This approach makes a lot more sense when the user is faced with the task of adapting many skeletons to many models.

safetyman
03-17-2014, 04:31 PM
The thing that pushes Blender over the top for me are the modifiers. You never have to "apply" a mirror, array, deform, etc., if you don't want to. This makes editing your work TONS easier. For instance... I often have to draw arrows in a circle (embarrassingly), but it's often never the same amount, so I created a single arrow in Blender, put an array modifier on there, then a simple deform set to bend, and viola... instant arrows in a circle. I can just click to increase the number of arrows in the array modifier or edit the arrow shape to my hearts content and everything is set. I can then use the export to SVG plugin that I found online for free and have a vector version ready for Illustrator. A simple example, I know, but it works for me quite nicely. Modifiers -- FTW.

Rayek
03-17-2014, 05:47 PM
The thing that pushes Blender over the top for me are the modifiers. You never have to "apply" a mirror, array, deform, etc., if you don't want to. This makes editing your work TONS easier. For instance... I often have to draw arrows in a circle (embarrassingly), but it's often never the same amount, so I created a single arrow in Blender, put an array modifier on there, then a simple deform set to bend, and viola... instant arrows in a circle. I can just click to increase the number of arrows in the array modifier or edit the arrow shape to my hearts content and everything is set. I can then use the export to SVG plugin that I found online for free and have a vector version ready for Illustrator. A simple example, I know, but it works for me quite nicely. Modifiers -- FTW.

If only they would ALL work on curve objects... Some do, but most do not.

Surrealist.
03-18-2014, 06:29 AM
regards cameras..i'm not sure but i think it's like 3dsmax where maya can render from any view'

It is because in Maya there are no "views" only cameras. They all have the same properties of course. Blender has a relatively new feature called "lock camera to view" which turns it into the same thing.