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Sebasvideo
02-25-2014, 11:31 AM
I'm having a weird problem with the rounder tool. I want to round some edges in this platform I did in Modeler, which is fairly simple but may not be done exactly by the book since I'm not an experienced Modeler user. But as you can see in the next screenshot, when I try to apply the rounder tool I get this error:

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Then when pressing the space bar to close the tool, I get this other error:

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However, I can do these round edges in Modo just fine with its bevel tool, which is like Modeler's bevel and rounder but in one:

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But I closed it without saving it, opened it again and ran Modo's mesh cleanup tool, which gave me this confirmation:

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So I saved the fixed file as an lwo appending fixed at the end, opened it in Modeler and tried the rounder again after selecting the edges I wanted. At first it gave me the Superman temple in the north pole, but after playing with the settings I was able to get somewhat tolerable results, but nothing like what Modo gave me. For starters, anything over 700 um makes it a mess, but even at 700 um or below, the newly created polygons look weird:

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So I got three questions:

Why do I get those error messages at first, what could I have done wrong in that very simple model?

Is there a "mesh cleanup" tool equivalent in Modeler?

Is there a way to round the edges in the way Modo does it rather than what the rounder tool produced?

Thanks,

Sebastian

prometheus
02-25-2014, 11:55 AM
Can you post the model wihout the rounding , so we can test? almost impossible to see whatīs wrong otherwise.

However ...Rounder is in need of improvements, I think maybe lw cad mass rounder could handle it better, depends on though, some thing lw cad rounder donīt do as good as native rounder.
To mee it looks like you are selecting edges that canīt be used for a rounder performance.
be carefull to try rounder on to many overall edges..and instead go through the edges one by one if possible to round it.

Edited...Also make sure you merge points in the model before rounding.

Michael

Sebasvideo
02-25-2014, 12:06 PM
Thanks Michael. No problem, I attached the model.

120478

The edges I selected in Modeler are the same ones I selected in Modo. I orbited all around to make sure I had not selected any other edges by accident, and if I did I unselected them. It seems to me that what Modeler does different from Modo is that it inserts a bunch of triangles and overcomplicates the new polygons, while Modo does it in a much simpler and cleaner way, just inserting parallel edges according to how many segments I specify.

The chamfer tool however, does a much cleaner job, but it doesn't round, so it's not usable for me in this situation.

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Sebasvideo
02-25-2014, 12:17 PM
Sorry, I think I may have attached the model that was fixed. Here is the original:

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prometheus
02-25-2014, 12:32 PM
Sorry, I think I may have attached the model that was fixed. Here is the original:

120478


Nope..the two models are the same, and rounded from the beginning, so we still need the original model :)
unless that is how it is from the beginning? with rounded parts?

Sebasvideo
02-25-2014, 12:36 PM
Nope..the two models are the same, and rounded from the beginning, so we still need the original model :)

Oh, I think you mean some borders that have already been rounded. The thing is after rounding those I wanted to round the edges that you see in the screenshots. The Platform2 file has the starting point from where I want to round more edges.

JoePoe
02-25-2014, 12:41 PM
I opened the second model.
Merge points got rid of 4 points.... that was your error message. (It's also a good idea to unify polys after the merge... but in this case didn't catch anything).

You need to add these cuts.... 120480

Then your Rounding will be fine. 120481

Sebasvideo
02-25-2014, 12:44 PM
Interesting how it works. Thanks Joe and Michael for your help.

JoePoe
02-25-2014, 12:50 PM
Yeah, interesting to say the least :). More like a pain in the.....

You might get a smoothing error on some of the big flat sides. Try using the OGL poly option in the rounder tool with a little offset (kinda like doing a multishift).
Otherwise give the problem poly(s) a new surface with different smoothing.

prometheus
02-25-2014, 12:52 PM
LW Cad would have handled that model with mass round without any extra cuts though.


http://www.wtools3d.com/manual/manual3/assets/video/mass_round_36update/mass_round.swf

But indeed...lw rounder out of the box falls flat against modo bevel/roounder tools.
Michael

Sebasvideo
02-25-2014, 01:12 PM
Last question, is there a tool to add the new cuts all at once, or do I have to use slice on polygon after polygon?

JoePoe
02-25-2014, 01:17 PM
I just grabbed all the edges I wanted to be involved and hit "l" (thats a lower case L) for connect. One shot.

Or you can use Quick Cut under Multiply Tab > Subdivide > More.


.... just to name two. ;)

prometheus
02-25-2014, 01:23 PM
indeed so....quick cut or qs term should work after selecting polyīs

hereīs some more lw cad rounder showcase...and by the way, nurbs is coming for lwcad 5.0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLJPPHrLGD8

nurbs preview...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmtpd4boCvc

Michael

Sebasvideo
02-25-2014, 03:13 PM
LW Cad would have handled that model with mass round without any extra cuts though.

But indeed...lw rounder out of the box falls flat against modo bevel/roounder tools.
Michael


It seems to me that when they were developing this feature they said "Uhmmm, selecting the edges you want to bevel with a round edge? That seems too easy! Let's put it in separate tools, one called bevel and the other called rounder. And to make it even more difficult, if the user just selects the edges he or she wants to round, let's make a mess out of the geometry. Let's implement it so that the user has to cut the polygons that are inside the edges in half, and then it will work as it should!"

Sorry, I couldn't resist. It just seems like one of those things in Lightwave that seem designed upside down, like the trackball orbiting in Modeler only if you use the Alt key, and there's no way to turn it off, and in Layout there's no trackball rotation, thank God.

prometheus
02-25-2014, 03:27 PM
It seems to me that when they were developing this feature they said "Uhmmm, selecting the edges you want to bevel with a round edge? That seems too easy! Let's put it in separate tools, one called bevel and the other called rounder. And to make it even more difficult, if the user just selects the edges he or she wants to round, let's make a mess out of the geometry. Let's implement it so that the user has to cut the polygons that are inside the edges in half, and then it will work as it should!"

Sorry, I couldn't resist. It just seems like one of those things in Lightwave that seem designed upside down, like the trackball orbiting in Modeler only if you use the Alt key, and there's no way to turn it off, and in Layout there's no trackball rotation, thank God.

I believe we might see some serious overhaul of some of the model tools soon, so I donīt think you should be too frustrated right now...if it doesnīt show up, you might start scratching your head:)

rounder was foremost developed at that time by third party developer I think, David Ikeda ..He is now is working for the lightwave dev team.
I think the modo team had a good vision and a development philosophy to develop tools that could perform model tasks at a different level, because they were aware of lightwave history and quirks and it was
also built to fill in where for instance Lightwave modeler couldnīt handle some operations good enough, thus many tools in the modo toolset are superior today and better implemented.

Then again, if they could purchase an apartment for victor (lwcad) and convince him to move to the states, and further on just pay him a steady salery, and further on have Lw-cad nativly in the lightwave out of the box..the discussion might have sounded differently:)

Itīs a constant battle to catch up for both software..and in the Lightwave case, I think it will be on modeling next, undo system and maybe a history stack/parametric modeling, UI and some Unification tools to layout, better mesh handling etc.

there are many tools that works, but with quirks and workarounds or poor interface for them, rounder is one of them, bending is one of them(they were on the right track with core for the bend tool)
spline guide, lathe and extrude which always require flipping polys etc...or latheīs in wrong way etc.
a toroid primitive that you canīt see how it looks until it has been entered and dropped..that is horrible...to many operations were you canīt ctrl constrain movement etc.

Michael

Sebasvideo
02-25-2014, 03:41 PM
To be honest the "anti-feature" that irks me the most right now is the trackball orbiting. That should have been changed years ago, since the earliest thread complaining about it dates back to 2003, and it's just a horrible implementation, period. Some people like it? Perfect, make it an option. How hard can it be making it an option. Meanwhile, a feature that most people hate or need to use only for specific things, is forced upon all users, making you waste a lot of time and making your wrist hurt from having to move the mouse and lift the finger from the button so many more times than necessary. Didn't someone in the Lightwave team say "Folks, this way of navigating might be useful for a few things but overall is incredibly annoying. Let's make it an option or get rid of it completely, since the way it is implemented in Layout is perfectly fine." Or at least make it something easy to change with a script, plugin or whatever.

That bugs me more than the lack of Undo on some things, and far more than this rounder thing, because the rounder thing at worst makes you waste a few seconds selecting a bunch of polygons and that's all the damage. The horrible trackball orbiting is either something you get ready to waste a lot of time or model in another program.

prometheus
02-25-2014, 03:48 PM
yes..I find the trackball rotation not very user friendly either, I actually use the icons foremost...(really)
There is a workaround, the autohotkey plugin letīs you set it up as you want, so you could navigate as you do in maya etc...I just donīt like to have to install another process running in order for it to work, thus I havenīt installed it.
Make an option to use maya style navigation BUILT in the preferences if you want to use it.
autohotkey is free..
http://www.autohotkey.com/

I have the same frustration about non docking windows, some developer jumped in and said, you can use the windows manager plugin to make the modules dock..I donīt want that, make it work inside of lighwave please...I donīt wanīt another secondary process to install and be running for something that should be in the UI.

Sebasvideo
02-25-2014, 03:57 PM
yes..I find the trackboall rotation not very user friendly either, I actually use the icons foremost.
There is a workaround, the autohotkey plugin letīs you set it up as you want, so you could navigate as you do in maya etc...I just donīt like to have to install another process running in order for it to work, thus I havenīt installed it.
best bet for all to be pleased make an option to use maya style navigation BUILT in the preferences if you want to use it.
autohotkey is free..
http://www.autohotkey.com/

I thought this was a program for reassigning keys to others, like swapping the CTRL and ALT keys to make things work more like Macs. But I don't get it, trackball orbiting doesn't have a key that you press to make it normal, how does this work? I don't mind installing it if it doesn't mess up anything else in Lightwave or any other program.

prometheus
02-25-2014, 04:00 PM
I thought this was a program for reassigning keys to others, like swapping the CTRL and ALT keys to make things work more like Macs. But I don't get it, trackball orbiting doesn't have a key that you press to make it normal, how does this work? I don't mind installing it if it doesn't mess up anything else in Lightwave or any other program.


Uhmm..you might be right about that

Snosrap
02-27-2014, 10:08 PM
rounder was foremost developed at that time by third party developer I think, David Ikeda ..He is now is working for the lightwave dev team. Just to clarify somewhat- Rounder was a 3rd party plug-in developed by Richard Brak back in late 2003 early 2004. You'll see he is credited in the "About" as an Engineering Contributor - meaning NT acquired his work. He has never, as far as I know, been on their payroll. Small bio here: http://books.google.com/books?id=czrtfbzjQ7oC&pg=PR17&lpg=PR17&dq=richard+brak+Rounder&source=bl&ots=uQ0lXLHvSl&sig=KaYh_iykmzy4i5B1iHnOUVmD_DU&hl=en&sa=X&ei=3hQQU7L5IsaayQG-4IDIDw&ved=0CEkQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=richard%20brak%20Rounder&f=false

Rounder for sure has it's quirks. I saw enough in the failed Core project to realize that NT is fully aware of the many shortcomings with it's modeling tools. Some of that knowledge can be seen in the Sequence tools in 11.6. I think if LW12 includes the Hydra engine we will some of these long standing tool problems eliminated.

prometheus
02-28-2014, 08:18 AM
Just to clarify somewhat- Rounder was a 3rd party plug-in developed by Richard Brak back in late 2003 early 2004. You'll see he is credited in the "About" as an Engineering Contributor - meaning NT acquired his work. He has never, as far as I know, been on their payroll. Small bio here: http://books.google.com/books?id=czrtfbzjQ7oC&pg=PR17&lpg=PR17&dq=richard+brak+Rounder&source=bl&ots=uQ0lXLHvSl&sig=KaYh_iykmzy4i5B1iHnOUVmD_DU&hl=en&sa=X&ei=3hQQU7L5IsaayQG-4IDIDw&ved=0CEkQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=richard%20brak%20Rounder&f=false

Rounder for sure has it's quirks. I saw enough in the failed Core project to realize that NT is fully aware of the many shortcomings with it's modeling tools. Some of that knowledge can be seen in the Sequence tools in 11.6. I think if LW12 includes the Hydra engine we will some of these long standing tool problems eliminated.

Your absolutly right about Richard Brak, how could I forget that?

Mr. Wilde
02-28-2014, 09:17 AM
It would be great if the Chamfer tool got updated to include subdivisions for rounded edges. Like modo's edge bevel tool. Then I guess I wouldn't use Rounder at all anymore.

Sebasvideo
03-18-2014, 06:10 PM
So in conclusion, there isn't a way to use rounder without making those extra polygons, and there is no rounder free plugin somewhere? I have to model something that I was going to try in Modeler, but then I remembered about the rounder problem and I think I'm going to do it in Modo just to save me some headaches.