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Sebasvideo
02-24-2014, 11:33 AM
I don't know why they have implemented in Modeler a navigation rotation mode that works different if you click and drag the rotation icon at the top right in perspective view than if you press the Alt key and drag. In Layout both work the same way. In Modeler, clicking the icon works fine, basically you rotate around the part you selected, for example selecting a polygon and pressing Shift+A then you can rotate around that polygon. However, if you use Alt+Drag instead, you're still rotating but the camera (or you) just falls to the side like a drunk and it stops, it doesn't go all the way around like when using the button.

Is there any way to get Alt+Drag to behave like it does with the button, or with both the button and the Alt key in Layout?

MarcusM
02-24-2014, 12:25 PM
I know what you mean and also can't understand why rotation with alt this is different than in Layout! ;] Now i can't use this in Modeler and always click icon.
I asked in mail few months ago to change this but without result...

Sebasvideo
02-24-2014, 12:59 PM
Searching more on this it seems to be that way and there's no way around it. I think that I'm going to do my modeling in Modo. I'm trying something really simple and even getting some edges selected is a nightmare with this chaotic orbital navigation. Why wouldn't Newtek set that as an option is just impossible to understand, especially when there seems to be a lot of people that hate it. I know that trackball rotation can be useful for certain things, but I like to have the ability to turn it on and off as I need it, like I can in Modo. Having it on all the time makes you waste a horrible amount of time.

spherical
02-24-2014, 03:20 PM
However, if you use Alt+Drag instead, you're still rotating but the camera (or you) just falls to the side like a drunk and it stops, it doesn't go all the way around like when using the button.

Because the cursor reaches the boundary of the screen. It has no farther to go. You'll note that if you start on the right and move left that the movement will go farther than if you start in the right and move right. It's just the way the OS/mouse system works. The button, on the other hand, stays on the screen in one spot and it is the "action point". As far as the system is concerned, the mouse is "on the button".

spherical
02-24-2014, 03:22 PM
I think that I'm going to do my modeling in Modo.

What is interesting is to read your posts in the Modo forums about how Modo is hard to deal with and how great LightWave is.

Sebasvideo
02-24-2014, 03:31 PM
Because the cursor reaches the boundary of the screen. It has no farther to go. You'll note that if you start on the right and move left that the movement will go farther than if you start in the right and move right. It's just the way the OS/mouse system works. The button, on the other hand, stays on the screen in one spot and it is the "action point". As far as the system is concerned, the mouse is "on the button".

I know what you mean, but no, it's not what happens in my case. The snap/limit occurs before the edges of the screen, and I have one monitor at each side, so the mouse pointer would not stop at the edge of the main monitor anyway.

I already found three other threads here with this issue, and the oldest is over ten years old. People told me that Lightwave had been neglected for a long time, but to be so lazy not to put a simple option to either engage or disengage trackball rotation is just outrageous, especially when people have been complaining about it for at least ten years.

It wouldn't be so bad if of the two modes they would have chosen the best one, which is the way Layout behaves both with the button and the key combination. There's nothing you cannot do with the normal way, if you need to lean to one side you press the RMB and move to one side or the other, then rotate. Couldn't be easier than that, but they had to implement it in the most bizarre way, which I would have absolutely no problem with if I had the choice, just like I do in Modo.

- - - Updated - - -


What is interesting is to read your posts in the Modo forums about how Modo is hard to deal with and how great LightWave is.

Both have their pros and cons and my goal is to learn both. I don't see your point. I think Modo is great in some things, and Lightwave is great in others.

geo_n
02-24-2014, 05:44 PM
Have you tried autohotkey plus the custom maya navi? Might help a little.
I can't use lightwave without it.

spherical
02-24-2014, 08:11 PM
I know what you mean, but no, it's not what happens in my case. The snap/limit occurs before the edges of the screen, and I have one monitor at each side, so the mouse pointer would not stop at the edge of the main monitor anyway.

I never bother with ALT in the Modeler Perspective viewport. ALT is Move in the Orthos. CTRL-ALT is Zoom in the Orthos and Perspective. Having ALT switch to Rotate in a Perspective is just something else to remember. Move and Zoom in Orthos and Zoom in Perspective work as described. I can zoom out to an absurd level when starting at the right side of a viewport on the right monitor and moving the mouse all the way across to the left edge of the left monitor. Rotation in Perspective stops at +/- 90, independent of window edges, so I see how the two methods aren't complementary. You should Fog it or nothing will change because the Devs won't read this.

geo_n
02-24-2014, 09:15 PM
Attached the autohotkey script that you can add in startup. You need to install autohotkey though.
Even in modo and 3dcoat I switch to maya navi. Its a more standardized way of 3d navi. Holding down multiple kb buttons to navi will cause rsi.

Snosrap
02-24-2014, 09:46 PM
I think navigation in LW and Modo is great! I have no idea what you guy's are complaining about. Everything works as expected as far as I can tell.

geo_n
02-24-2014, 10:37 PM
I think navigation in LW and Modo is great! I have no idea what you guy's are complaining about. Everything works as expected as far as I can tell.

The navi icon and the navi alt in modeller is a bit different. The alt one has a limit and tends to lock at a certain point and you click drag again to continue the rotation. Doesn't bother me though compared to the multiple button navi.

Snosrap
02-25-2014, 05:29 PM
The navi icon and the navi alt in modeller is a bit different. The alt one has a limit and tends to lock at a certain point and you click drag again to continue the rotation. Doesn't bother me though compared to the multiple button navi. Oh- okay I see what you mean. I'm not sure why anyone would ever use that thing unless you only have one hand. :)

Sebasvideo
02-25-2014, 06:51 PM
Attached the autohotkey script that you can add in startup. You need to install autohotkey though.
Even in modo and 3dcoat I switch to maya navi. Its a more standardized way of 3d navi. Holding down multiple kb buttons to navi will cause rsi.

Thanks, I would try it, but I don't really like Maya style navigation. I don't like using the middle button too much except for scrolling, and that's one of the many reasons I dislike Blender (where you have to use the middle mouse button for orbiting, for those who never used it). I like Lightwave's 3 key with LMB way, but the trackball thing is just unbearable. It's not just that that it's different, trackball orbiting in Modo is not something I use often but every once in a while I have used it, but it's better implemented. But still, in Modo you can choose. It's absolutely mind boggling to me that this is something Lightwave users have been complaining since at least 2003, and looking this up in this forums it's full of people that hate it, and yet Newtek has done nothing about it. And what is the purpose anyway? Layout has an orbiting system that is perfect, 2 axis when using ALT+LMB and if you want to orbi the other way, then pivot using ALT+RMB and then orbit away as much as you want. Why can't they just do it that way in Modeler, or at least give the option? It's absolutely ridiculous.

I've been modeling a few basic things in Modeler to learn it better, but this method is so bizarre that I will probably do all my modeling in Modo and then import that into Layout.

Snosrap
02-25-2014, 07:38 PM
After mucking about in Modo I found where this can be changed and I'm starting to understand what you are saying, but it's still so similar I don't know what the big deal is. :) I think having that as an option would be a good thing for those where it is bothersome.

Sebasvideo
02-25-2014, 09:50 PM
After mucking about in Modo I found where this can be changed and I'm starting to understand what you are saying, but it's still so similar I don't know what the big deal is. :) I think having that as an option would be a good thing for those where it is bothersome.

I don't understand how can you find it so similar. One way you can orbit around the selected object all around, 360 if you want. In Modeler the moment you start you tumble to one side or the other, until it snaps. The only way to make it remotely bearable is to lift the finger from the LMB every inch or so, go back with the mouse, press the button again, keep rolling and so on. It takes several more steps to do the same thing that you can do in Layout, Modo and even Modeler when using the top right button.

spherical
02-25-2014, 10:22 PM
So use the friggin' Orbit button! Don't even have to hold down a key with your other hand. What is with all of the complaining?! Geez.

geo_n
02-25-2014, 10:27 PM
In actual usage though its barely an issue. Muscle memory kicks in and every little viewport movement whether its a pan, orbit or zoom, you hit zoom to selected a lot because you want the best possible view of a selection and that makes the orbiting difference a non-factor to creating good models. I don't miss the layout/modo orbiting in max, etc.

Sebasvideo
02-26-2014, 12:17 AM
So use the friggin' Orbit button! Don't even have to hold down a key with your other hand. What is with all of the complaining?! Geez.

So in your view, instead of leaving the pointer around the center of the screen where I have it and press the Alt key, I have to move the pointer all the way to the top right, then move it back to the center, then move it back to the top right, then back to the center, and multiply that for one, two, three hundred times a day. And to you that is not a colossal waste of time?

MarcusM
02-26-2014, 12:54 AM
So use the friggin' Orbit button! Don't even have to hold down a key with your other hand. What is with all of the complaining?! Geez.

Of course we can complain on this! I also don't want all the time clicking on icon.
If you like what it is now then fine but some other users want possibility to change! It is problem for you?

spherical
02-26-2014, 01:47 AM
So in your view, instead of leaving the pointer around the center of the screen where I have it and press the Alt key, I have to move the pointer all the way to the top right, then move it back to the center, then move it back to the top right, then back to the center, and multiply that for one, two, three hundred times a day. And to you that is not a colossal waste of time?

Evidently, I've found a way of working in Modeler that you haven't.

spherical
02-26-2014, 02:35 AM
Of course we can complain on this! I also don't want all the time clicking on icon.
If you like what it is now then fine but some other users want possibility to change! It is problem for you?

Never mind.

Yet another "Internet argument" that cannot be won. [sigh... don't get drawn into them... there's no point... and there's definitely no convincing some people] Why does it have to be like this? Argument for the sake of argument. Can people, one in particular, just stop complaining about every little thing, please? Most of what happens here is constructive. I'd like it to remain that way. I, and others, would like to come in here an learn new things because we help each other; not be impacted with repeated grousing on this or that or something else or yet another thing and how appalling it is that hasn't been fixed since [insert date here].

Looking for a positive and constructive break, I go to another forum and am met with the same vitriol about [I]that application, how it is built wrong and "I'm going to do all my modeling over [where I just came from!] because it's easier".

Want to change something? Go through channels and file a Feature Request through FogBugz. Post it in the Feature Requests forum dedicated to the purpose. Both will have a better chance of being read by the Devs there than they will in every other forum, both here and in the "other application".

Lewis
02-26-2014, 03:09 AM
The thing is that people not understand the difference and expect it to work same (ALt+LMB and top Right rotating icon). Those two are two different modes - Trackball and Orbiting rotations. I prefer ALT+LMB but you have to understand that you are NOT rotating camera (since modeler don't have camera) but rotating and object on screen (just in view not in real rotating) and it respects cursor position so it behaves like you are pushing exact that spot of screen/mesh where you clicked. Imagine like your finger is trying to push that location of mesh which will then rotate around it's axis so what you get is rotation around that spot you clicked on. While top right corner icons just orbit around center of world.

Both ways have it's pros and cons but i prefer ATL+LMB directly in viewport 'coz that way I can rotate object as many times as i want and it's tons faster navigation while with icons you are locked to 180 degrees rotation before gimbal lock.

MarcusM
02-26-2014, 03:38 AM
When i report one bug in 01-10-2013 i wrote also:
"Take this opportunity i would like to ask for rotating in perspective view in Modeler exactly the same way like in Layout, with shortcut Alt+RMB. Alt+LMB could stay like it is now."

Reply was:
"As for the shortcuts -- I'll pass that on as well."

Sebasvideo
02-26-2014, 10:58 AM
Never mind.

Yet another "Internet argument" that cannot be won. [sigh... don't get drawn into them... there's no point... and there's definitely no convincing some people] Why does it have to be like this? Argument for the sake of argument. Can people, one in particular, just stop complaining about every little thing, please?

And you don't realize that when you type a comment as pointless and childish as "So use the friggin' Orbit button! Don't even have to hold down a key with your other hand. What is with all of the complaining?! Geez. " you are the one who is starting a pointless argument? Because until you came over with your useless reply, we were just having a simple discussion about the poor implementation of this feature. And then you come with your conformist attitude "So use the friggin' Orbit button!" "What is with all of the complaining?! Geez." and I'm thinking, OK, this guy must be 15 if that's the best he can contribute. As for complaining about every little thing, well, if you see people that complain about poorly implemented features as complainers, you can see it any way you want, but I see it as contributing towards making a better product, because in computer software, if nobody ever complained about poor designs, we would still be using Windows 95. I don't appreciate one bit being singled out as someone who complains all the time when I see just the same things I post from most people in this forum, and usually agree with me on something that doesn't work right and think it should be improved.

So just to educate you a little bit about this issue, I will copy and paste here all the threads where you can read that it's not just "one in particular" complaining about this:

http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?118086-Orbit-Method-in-Modeler

http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?39528-Way-to-change-Modeler-Orbit

http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?39597-quot-Trackball-quot-option

http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?42352-2-axis-orbit-option-in-Modeler-please!

http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?121349-HELP-Perspective-view-in-viewport-snapping-WHY

http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?91535-katt-s-thread-of-questions

http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?86551-trackball-rotation

I could keep copying and pasting, but you will find in those threads tons of "complainers" about this very poorly implemented feature. But hey, in the future feel free not to reply to any of my threads unless you have something constructive to post.

Snosrap
02-26-2014, 09:53 PM
This has been brought up before and the point is valid that there should be other options. I think we can agree with that. The option to set it up to user preference is the best for everybody. This is a huge user stumbling block with so many 3D apps. I setup Mudbox to work like LW and it's great, but I can't for the life of me figure out a way to do the same in 3DS Max. End result - I won't use Max. IMO navigating the 3D space is the most important aspect of how the user relates with his/her scene and if it doesn't click with the user it make for a very frustrating experience.

Sebasvideo
02-26-2014, 11:53 PM
I think there's also a valid point in making Modeler and Layout more coherent in their behaviors. It's just weird that ALT+LMB works one way in Layout and another in Modeler, but using the drag button works the same in both. It's one of many things that make both programs sometimes seem like they're from different companies, like being used to press the number keys to change views in Layout, but in Modeler those keys have totally different functions assigned to them, in fact views don't even have shortcuts until you assign them.

I wanted to do a project I'm working on entirely in Lightwave to learn it better, and also because Modo's network rendering still doesn't work great with more than two or three computers, but no matter how hard I tried to do things in Modeler, that trackball orbiting and that snapping just gets in my way, so I'm modeling in Modo and then I will bring it all into Layout.

geo_n
02-27-2014, 12:03 AM
Fogbuzz it. The more fogbuzz the more it goes high in the priority list.

Sebasvideo
02-27-2014, 12:35 AM
Fogbuzz it. The more fogbuzz the more it goes high in the priority list.

I did a few hours ago.

jwiede
02-27-2014, 01:22 AM
I think navigation in LW and Modo is great! I have no idea what you guy's are complaining about. Everything works as expected as far as I can tell.

Actually, having spent time using all of them, I find the "new" viewport navigation in C4D (circa R12/13) the most efficient -- being able to dynamically alter the precise pivot/zoom point on the fly is a huge improvement when working deeply "zoomed in" on a large object. In Modeler, when deeply zoomed in, controlling rotation is often quite difficult particularly when no convenient element center is visible in the viewport.

Sebasvideo
02-27-2014, 03:25 PM
I realized today while doing some sculpting in Modo that the problem with the trackball rotation as Modeler has it is not only that is trackball style; I used it on Modo with my pen tablet and it was very useful. But the implementation in Modo is nowhere as terrible as it is in Modeler. In Modeler it snaps to who knows what. Not only it snaps after orbiting, sometimes it starts off snapped to something. That makes it really frustrating to work with.