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prometheus
02-09-2014, 10:24 AM
A showcase of how geometric shapes used with volumetric item can produce volume effects that is very difficult to acheive with particles or points only appliance, which is the case with
Lightwave hypervoxels as of today....hopefully such mode might arrive soon?

Modo volumetric item from object surface...se the aeroplane and coffecup turn in to a cloud shape, previously before modo implemented this, I think houdini was the master at such volume presentation.


See making of the commercial for the client Blagnac Airport...
http://pixteur.com/album/blagnac-airport-clouds/


http://pixteur.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/pixteur_blagnac_airbus.jpg

Michael

Julez4001
02-10-2014, 02:53 AM
You don't think Hypervoxel can achieve this?
Looks like the thing that's right up its alley.

prometheus
02-10-2014, 05:54 AM
You don't think Hypervoxel can achieve this?
Looks like the thing that's right up its alley.

nope..it canīt...it will just look like a crappy version of it.

your limited with hypervoxels on points, you can fill the object with fill solid, but the way it is applied will relentlessly show you a spherical density around each point, you can avoid that with sprites instead..but then
you loose the volume look over the volume....
Yes I have tested..doesnīt look anything near it.

modo applies volumetrics from the object surface, you can see in my "I need your help feedback for the next generation of hypervoxels" where I also posted an image of a head completly in volumetrics..
The only thing close would to be using turbulenceFD and remove all motions in the sim and fill it as a volume, or use volumedic...but you have to get some expensive plugins where modo now does this nativly in
its voxel system.

dulo
02-10-2014, 06:25 AM
You can do things like that with hypervoxels, but its quite complicated. You can create the volumetric shape in another application ( we use houdini ) and write it into an uncompressed AVI with alpha channel. This avi can then be loaded as baked hv object. ( the volume has to be square like 64x64x64 or 128x128x128 )
I think you can also achive this with volumedic ( volume inside of mesh ) but I havent tried that one.
But prometheus is absolutely right that with lw onboard tools you wont achive something similar in lightwave.

prometheus
02-10-2014, 06:54 AM
You can do things like that with hypervoxels, but its quite complicated. You can create the volumetric shape in another application ( we use houdini ) and write it into an uncompressed AVI with alpha channel. This avi can then be loaded as baked hv object. ( the volume has to be square like 64x64x64 or 128x128x128 )
I think you can also achive this with volumedic ( volume inside of mesh ) but I havent tried that one.
But prometheus is absolutely right that with lw onboard tools you wont achive something similar in lightwave.


Ah...Yes of course, houdini, interesting combomix there, will have to look at that...cloudFX tools in houdini is nice though, so I have tested modeling in Lightwave(prefer that) then load it as obj and then just drag the cloudFX tool on to that model, voila ...instant cloud from the object...the controls for density,lightpropagation, and secondary noise is lovely too, so with some experience with cloudFX, only the sky limit you in what type of cloudshape you can create.

hereīs a quickie with turbulenceFD, just a couple of minutes to set up, but just testing, if I wanted to I could just as easy tweak it almost as good as the image from modo, fix background shading etc...but it serves no purpose really so I skip that.

first image just filled it, turning off bouyancy, second image subgrid detal added...Itīs too smokey and to large in voxels size ...but you canīt even get close to this with hypervoxels.
now I fiddled with the demo version of turbulenceFD, I would cost me extra for turbulenceFD, and I might get that later anyway, but it should really be in a new hypervoxels, as modo managed to do, thereīs so much more light control you have in hypervoxels VS turbulenceFD ...for the moment.

http://forums.newtek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=120021&d=1392040386 http://forums.newtek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=120022&d=1392040404
120021 120022

50one
02-10-2014, 08:19 AM
http://forums.newtek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=120021&d=1392040386 http://forums.newtek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=120022&d=1392040404
120021 120022


Damn bro, you've nailed the look! Lol:D

3DGFXStudios
02-10-2014, 08:36 AM
Are you sure it's volumetrics? Could as well be textured geometry. In the notes it says it's 70% cgi 30% post.

shrox
02-10-2014, 11:05 AM
It could be done. I have done similar.

prometheus
02-10-2014, 12:08 PM
Are you sure it's volumetrics? Could as well be textured geometry. In the notes it says it's 70% cgi 30% post.

Pretty sure, the characteristics and noise and volume of it all, to much hazzle to do it that way, when you simple can make it a volumetric item, the output is very similar to what I did with turbulenceFD.
The post process is mostly after effects, the clip is animated, and also the rest of the clouds mostly a mix between photo and volumetric item...pretty sure.


It could be done. I have done similar.

No ..I donīt think so, not with hypervoxels...but please prove me wrong and Show me...if you can show just as smooth voxels, I will bow for you, if You can acheive the same look as I got with turbulenceFD with hypervoxels..my
jaw will drop, and donīt post process it to death..thatīs a cheat.


hereīs mutantpixels (on foundry/lux forum) showcase of a head created with volumetric item, the first without noise, the second with noise...now try make that head in the first image look like that with only voxels.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/27944521/OldMan2.jpg https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/27944521/OldMan1.jpg

shrox
02-10-2014, 01:15 PM
120028

Here is a quick HV preview.

MarcusM
02-10-2014, 01:37 PM
Maybe fill object with points, Fill Solid tool.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igGxjoiZ7Lo

shrox
02-10-2014, 01:38 PM
Maybe fill object with points?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igGxjoiZ7Lo

That's what mine is, just points. It's the final look that matters.

prometheus
02-10-2014, 02:24 PM
Maybe fill object with points, Fill Solid tool.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igGxjoiZ7Lo

Yes..thatīs what I said before...and I did test that, even though I knew it will not come close to what is needed.


That's what mine is, just points. It's the final look that matters.

one engine?
try the whole darn thing:) that will be tougher...besides, the clip is too much of fractals, but that is what you have to use, a hypertexture to crunch in, but the commercial is much smoother overall and the noise more appearant on the outer volume of the object.
now show me that full aeroplane:) or try it on your excellent dante ship:)

Michael

prometheus
02-10-2014, 02:41 PM
what could get closer is if you were to quantize the points after fill solid, for even spacing between them, but fill solid isnīt doing a good job of uniformly filling the mesh object at certain parts, but it doesnīt matter really, the smoothness of a true volumetric object from surface, that canīt be acheived with hypervoxels since they adapt the spherical density of a single dot in space, and the blending mode in lightwave is a joke really... but even with modos much better blending mode for volumes in voxels....they would be diffucult to use on modo points and get the same look as if you apply it per surface basis.

50one
02-10-2014, 04:08 PM
what could get closer is if you were to quantize the points after fill solid, for even spacing between them, but fill solid isnīt doing a good job of uniformly filling the mesh object at certain parts, but it doesnīt matter really, the smoothness of a true volumetric object from surface, that canīt be acheived with hypervoxels since they adapt the spherical density of a single dot in space, and the blending mode in lightwave is a joke really... but even with modos much better blending mode for volumes in voxels....they would be diffucult to use on modo points and get the same look as if you apply it per surface basis.


You can do that in Modo, shoul be possible in Lw modeller too as the core, stencil options are the same.
Create a point array and core it with Bg shape, should work.

jwiede
02-10-2014, 04:18 PM
That's what mine is, just points. It's the final look that matters.

Still, you chose the section with the least actual "volume" involved -- the engine's little more than a thin-walled curved tube, essentially. The parts where you'll have problems (with that approach) are those where there's actual, substantial volume that you're trying to fill acceptably, such as the fuselage itself, or worse, where the wings or tail meet the fuselage.

shrox
02-10-2014, 08:42 PM
If you want to pay me to do the whole thing, that would be nice.

erikals
02-10-2014, 10:44 PM
nah i'm sure LightWave HV can do it, +30% post, like they did...

no biggie...

prometheus
02-11-2014, 12:40 AM
nope guys, Jwiede is right, itīs a mess to fill it with points etc, Ivé tried it with fill solid, and wouldnīt really bother with quantize In lightwave since I know hvīs will not do for it in the end anyway, and I wouldnīt use quantize in modo either since I could just as easy use the volumetric item for it..so why should I use quantize there?

You guys have to go out and sing to earn the money though,Im not going to pay for it:D I do know my way around hypervoxels you know, so I also know the limits of it (bragging)
Besides...I have absolutly no need of creating this for anything else than it serves as a reminder of what I asked for... as a feature for lightwave many years ago.

There is a reason modo and houdini has implemented such tools you know:devil:

Nah..erikals...you show me this plane without the typical hv look, and as smooth as the commercial without doing to much workarounds with hypervoxels.
TurbulenceFD is cool though for this, though we could need a density function for subgrid detail where the noise are more pronounced at the edges, cool that you could just add more fluid containers and
the reload the cached plane volume several times, I will try some nebula stuff sims with that.

Basic properties for hypervoxels is applied on a single dot in space(for each particle or point that is) and with poor blending mode, turn of hypertextues and you can not get away with that fact that the whole volume dont blend in.
and besides you get round spherical blobs arund it. sure ...add hypertextures with enough value to crunch it in, but beneath it is this built in non falloff in the textures that still cant blend well, basicly
how the hypertextures look and is tiled against each other.
This is something you guys all complain about and me too with too puffy hvīs etc..so donīt go and say hypervoxels do not need any improvements.

Michael

prometheus
02-11-2014, 12:48 AM
nah i'm sure LightWave HV can do it, +30% post, like they did...

no biggie...
Im sure the post was mostly the rest of the animation and background, as far as if they used volumetrics, I guess I have to ask them and get back if I can.

erikals
02-11-2014, 02:16 AM
simply said, i'd do it in passes in LightWave

HV preset 1
HV preset 2
HV preset 3

to get different looks,
then PhotoShop (you must use a tablet pen when retouching adding elements in PS, a mouse won't cut it)

again, simply said.

shrox / i could do this,
just don't see the point of spending hours on a test, especially when not getting paid for it.
(the test will take hours)

i'm sure the company used days on the first test, to get the look right.


--------------
maybe i could make a paid tutorial on it, but i have a feeling too few wouldn't be interested.

jwiede
02-11-2014, 04:38 AM
Shrox/Erikals, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this.

Prometheus, please check your PM's? I had an couple of Ogo Taiki compatibility questions I was hoping you might be able to answer, but if you don't have time, no worries.

prometheus
02-11-2014, 05:08 AM
I could paint the whole thing too,in photoshop....it would fall flat for a required animation though, which this sample is, and with display of those cloud items as 3d volumes.

erikals
02-11-2014, 08:22 AM
it would be interesting to see the animation, any link on that one?

Ztreem
02-11-2014, 09:11 AM
I think it's possible with Hypervoxels. I did some tests today...
I just show this as an example that it is possible to make hypervoxels to conform to an object. I still want the feature to turn objects into volume objects, LW3DG really must realize that workflow is important and that things should be simple from an artist point of view.
Enjoy!

120077

prometheus
02-11-2014, 09:58 AM
it would be interesting to see the animation, any link on that one?

yes...I should have linked it better...almost at the end of the page, there are several videos, Itīs the Blagnac airport animation.



I just show this as an example that it is possible to make hypervoxels to conform to an object. I still want the feature to turn objects into volume objects, LW3DG really must realize that workflow is important and that things should be simple from an artist point of view.
Enjoy!

120077[/QUOTE]

hypervoxels conforming to objects isnīt anything new.Itīs always been possible to apply it on a per vertices basis or on particles applied to geometry, or use boolean methods on a dense point array, or use the fill solid tool, it still remains impossible to blend between particles and also to get each point voxel to be non spherical.

I mean ..you can get some sort of crude version using hypervoxels and post processin or fiddling in after effects, but it isnīt at that level of fine showcase I mean the volumetric Item option brings to a volumetric tool and how much easier and
much better the final look will be in the end.

I have also put a question on the lux/foundry forums to make sure I am not completly wrong here about it being a volumetric item, in such case I will feel ashamed:)

as I mentioned...you could try and use sprites instead to avoid the volumetric spherical effect on a per point basis, since a sprite is only a slice of the volumetrics, so it seems to blend between each particle or point better, but
you have to set up additional gradients or distance to object for the voxels to acheive a volumetric look...
hereīs some old cloud test .the first image is just a divided grid, arrayed with sparse space between them killing polys, when I think of it, you donīt need to kill the polys, rather use subpatch level to control the amount
of point voxels in the arrayed grid.
the other images I just put a fractal in density or dissolve channel, canīt recall which now.
Nothing to do with getting some advanced object shape, merely a test for clouds.

120079 120080 120081

hvīs following objects isnīt hard to do otherwise... http://vimeo.com/35978253


http://vimeo.com/35978253


http://vimeo.com/26391236

http://vimeo.com/26391236



Michael

prometheus
02-11-2014, 10:32 AM
God darnit diddely doo...I was sloppy and missed to paste the link to the Blanc airport animation before...
http://pixteur.com/making-of/

Scroll down till you find the Blanc airport animation.

Ztreem
02-11-2014, 12:23 PM
I know about all the techniques to get hypervoxels to look like objects with a lot of points. This technique does not rely on lots of points, its one hypervoxel conformed to an object volume. It 's a workaround as always in lightwave but I think this technique can be useful for some effects. It comes with a lot of limitations of course so its not the solution to all problems. I have to do some more tests.

prometheus
02-11-2014, 12:37 PM
I know about all the techniques to get hypervoxels to look like objects with a lot of points. This technique does not rely on lots of points, its one hypervoxel conformed to an object volume. It 's a workaround as always in lightwave but I think this technique can be useful for some effects. It comes with a lot of limitations of course so its not the solution to all problems. I have to do some more tests.

Well in such case you have to share with us, wrapping geometry in to a single voxel object?(sort of) I have asked about that on the forums for ages, and no one has been able to provide a solution for that ...Until now in such case.
Please continue to test it and share your findings if you can.

Michael

shrox
02-11-2014, 01:06 PM
I know about all the techniques to get hypervoxels to look like objects with a lot of points. This technique does not rely on lots of points, its one hypervoxel conformed to an object volume. It 's a workaround as always in lightwave but I think this technique can be useful for some effects. It comes with a lot of limitations of course so its not the solution to all problems. I have to do some more tests.

Can you post a sample for 9.6?

prometheus
02-11-2014, 02:30 PM
hereīs something similar in houdiniFX, I need to check in to what resolution a mesh requires for best results though, once you apply cloudfx_cloud rig, it is automaticly lit and also set with noise.
first image, just how the mesh looks in poly, second image how it looks with cloudfx but without noise, third image with noise, and fourth image with some extra secondary noise(want that for hypervoxels)
and a density (catmull) curve correction to soften edges and also a color in the ramp(I want all that too for hypervoxels:))

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-FSgs_mFyssw/UvqTX2oxGWI/AAAAAAAACV0/xE8mGBefn-c/s1152/horse_obj.jpg

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-9lnrRbHPK6I/UvqTbDfC1wI/AAAAAAAACV8/5TvsEWGGdVE/s1152/horse_cloudfx_no%2520noise.jpg

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-uGLmkerPTY8/UvqTcKBEGVI/AAAAAAAACWE/HAclLHA3ku0/s1152/horse%2520cloud%2520rig_noise.jpg

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-bFq0-yqel8g/UvqTddY70MI/AAAAAAAACWM/eAoMuICyuSw/s1152/cloudFX_horse%2520color%2520ramp%2520and%2520catmu ll%2520density%2520curve.jpg


now in the second image you can see some banding in the sampling quality, it was set to 100, you can improve by changing to 250 or something like that for just a volumetric object, but when adding noise it will halt
houdini, and I find myself adding to high values by mistake and houdini will freeze or crash...so one has to be careful about tthat..and with noise you will not need that many samples for the object.

all images in openGL screenshots, so itīs really cool to see changes update almost in realtime in the openGL preview...the sad part is that starting a render in houdini takes forever compared to lightwave.

Kittens werenīt available for testing this time around, no animals were injured during production.

Michael