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Tranimatronic
02-04-2014, 11:04 AM
http://www.cgchannel.com/2013/10/autodesk-to-discontinue-software-upgrades/

The way I see it LW3DG has a year to bring out a viable alternative

shrox
02-04-2014, 11:19 AM
Autodesk goes bust by 2019.

GandB
02-04-2014, 01:39 PM
We all knew this was coming. One thing in common with Adobe and AD? Shareholders. ;)

Here's to NewTek and LW3DG never leaving private hands!

RebelHill
02-04-2014, 02:02 PM
That doesnt say anything about cloud only... They're just cancelling upgrade versions, so you either subscribe for constant updates, or buy them at full price when/if you want em.

Dexter2999
02-04-2014, 02:02 PM
One thing in common with Adobe and AD? Shareholders.

Do you think shareholder outcry for higher dividends is the major motivation? Or Executive justification for higher bonus'?

souzou
02-04-2014, 02:12 PM
That doesnt say anything about cloud only... They're just cancelling upgrade versions, so you either subscribe for constant updates, or buy them at full price when/if you want em.

It's the same sales model as Houdini. I think this could send a few disgruntled users over to C4D/LW/Modo.

GandB
02-04-2014, 02:31 PM
Do you think shareholder outcry for higher dividends is the major motivation? Or Executive justification for higher bonus'?

I think it's both; though more likely a bit more of the latter, versus the former.

spherical
02-04-2014, 04:30 PM
Do you think shareholder outcry for higher dividends is the major motivation? Or Executive justification for higher bonus'?

They're interchangeable.

calilifestyle
02-04-2014, 04:53 PM
Autodesk goes bust by 2019.

Naw i doubt it. Anyway if they back down they have plenty of time and funds to change direction. If anything this business model has been bringing them more money.



http://finance.yahoo.com/echarts?s=ADSK+Interactive#symbol=adsk;range=5y;co mpare=;indicator=volume;charttype=area;crosshair=o n;ohlcvalues=0;logscale=off;source=;

Surrealist.
02-04-2014, 06:08 PM
Well it actually works this way as I understand it from my rep.

It is fairly flexible. First they give you 30 day grace period after the year is up. After that, you actually have a year to subscribe again if you choose to let it go. You pay a small penalty if you go past the 30 day grace period. And when you subscribe again (within the year after it has expired) it starts again for a year, from that date. So you effectively you could be "upgrading" every 2 years if that was what you choose to do or at the very least decide to wait and have a look at features in the next release before committing funds.

There are other benefits to subscription but really I don't use them too much anyway. I mostly think of it as upgrading and staying current with the software which I have enjoyed so far. But this time I am going to let it go til the mid to end of the year and pay the small penalty to stretch funds a little bit. Will be interesting to see what happens this year.

I really do recommend - as old school as it is - to get and use a local AD rep retailer and not just rely on things you see or read or can know from websites alone. I was able to save a lot of money with my purchase by going through an actual company out of San Francisco because he knew about things that I would have never thought of or found out about.

spherical
02-04-2014, 08:27 PM
What is considered to be a "small penalty"?

erikals
02-05-2014, 12:28 AM
quote from the other thread >


Adobe got it wrong. At least if you quit Autodesk subscription you still have working software to open your files with. When you quit Adobe's subscription model you have zero software to open your files with.

that's good though, at least you can open files...
(until they decide to change their policy...?)

JonW
02-05-2014, 12:43 AM
(until they decide to change their policy...?)

That was an oversight!

hrgiger
02-05-2014, 06:52 AM
Again, just another choice based on what the shareholders want rather then the users. But then hey, its the users that still continue to support these decisions by using the software.

erikals
02-05-2014, 12:00 PM
i dislike what AutoDesk is doing to my good old Alias|Wavefront Maya / Softimage|XSI... http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/frown.gif

and from what i read about Maya, so does the former Alias boss.

Surrealist.
02-06-2014, 01:56 AM
I am actually very happy with what has happened to Maya. It has become more and more attractive since I first tried to learn it over a decade ago.

I think there are a lot of good things that have happened since Maya and XSI have been acquired. Things that would have never happened to them living in separate companies. Same goes for MotionBuilder and Mudbox. And some of the new features to Maya are quite frankly brilliant in my opinion. I enjoy using all of this software. It gives me some tools that factually do not exist in other places. You have 3 of the best software packages out there under one roof. And the efforts to make them all talk to one another are going stronger now. Something that would never happen otherwise.

I look forward to the future developments of what I consider - outside of Houdini for special effects and Mari for painting - the best 3D (not 2D or composting) software available today.

There are some fantastic tools available for artists to take advantage of. In my onion artists should investigate them, not shy away from them.

This new pricing is not for everyone. But it does offer alternatives. And there are lots of situations where that can come in handy.

spherical
02-06-2014, 02:21 AM
Interesting spin. For those that have the budgets, it's just peachy. It boils down to a growing exclusionary mechanism. Only game in town grows stronger, as more and more applications are gobbled up. If you can't pay the monetary price, you'll pay the price in other ways.

erikals
02-06-2014, 03:20 AM
I am actually very happy with what has happened to Maya. It has become more and more attractive since I first tried to learn it over a decade ago.

well, i think that should go without saying, paying around $1000 close to every year for upgrades.

just saying that it should have been so much more by now.


i'm not found of them holding back technology, only because "we can"

though yes, certainly there are many things to like about Maya too...
this is why i'm pleased they launched the rental option. now i can rent Maya, use it's dynamics, bring it back into LightWave. for example.

can't rent SoftImage though,
word is that they are cancelling it or transferring some of the code to Maya...
http://www.si-community.com/community/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=4373&start=310

Surrealist.
02-06-2014, 07:45 AM
Well I don't see any indication that this is so. I stopped believing half of the crap that people say on the internet about software companies anyway. I am on the beta now for the suite programs and I can not say what they are doing but surely there is no indication this is so at all. Or we (the beta testers) would all be seeing it happening. In fact there is more activity in interaction between the apps without getting specific.

I don't know. All of the speculation how far something should come and so on does not hold much weight with me at all. It takes a lot of effort to develop programs. Certainly you'd think that of anyone, LightWave users, would have had that idea beaten into their thick skulls after seeing core go on exactly as long as it would have to take. And current development only going as far as it can in the speed it can. Which is slow. That is normal. There is nothing at all unusual about LightWave development and I don't see they did anything wrong other than themselves buy into unrealistic time schedules and then try and sell them to the community.

A larger program with more developers, more complexity and so on. You get what you pay for. Maya is a huge program with a lot of top of the line features in Character Animation and Effects. I have been using it a little over a year now and I have barely scratched the surface. But each thing I do uncover is very easy to understand and use, comes with presets to get you going, is very artist friendly and well thought out with actual production in mind and pretty damn well robust. And to develop tools to that level takes time and resources.

When you cut corners and leave features out, it shows. It costs less but you spend more time as an artist fussing with it. And time is in fact money. So to me it is just a matter of what you want to spend your time doing. Creating and producing a product or fussing about.

One cost more money the other more time and some things you completely loose out on simply because they don't exist unless you are willing to shell out the cash.

That is a fairly normal life reality and I don't see how this is any different.

vipvip242
02-06-2014, 07:49 AM
i've just consulted the price for a maya rent for 1 year, without support, in France: price is 2200€ + per year ...
Are they mad ?
Is the 'professionnal' market and big studios number so extended ?! With this politic, they definitively close the door to very small studios like mine.
For comparison, the Adobe master collection's licence costed around the same price than maya, and now they rent the full CC collection for 700€ + per year !... For a suite really usefull every day, highly professionnal...

...Suicidal Autodesk ?! :)

erikals
02-06-2014, 08:53 AM
i hope you are right about SoftImage, and that it goes rental soon like Maya/Max.

cresshead
02-06-2014, 10:19 AM
i'll be interested to see what autodesk push out the door this year for 3dsmax 2015 as i almost cancelled my subs last year...

i'm either hoping they give a good update or modo or blender start to offer more stack like or node based modelling tools...modo with mesh fusion says to me they can do this if they choose to
with 801 but only time will tell..and blender is moving forward too in this area.

For Lightwave 12..well i think that's a couple of years away so unless a 3rd party plugin developer steps in that sort of thing won't happen anytime soon.

Surrealist.
02-06-2014, 11:03 AM
One thing people may be forgetting about the yearly rental is that you do not need a subscription service to stay current and you have to amortize that along with the outlay of cash for owning.

Not appropriate to go into here in detail but when you do the math on it over several years up to 6 years you can see where they came up with the figures.

Softimage is included in both the Premium and Ultimate Suite rentals. I imagine it may not be included as a stand alone rental because the numbers are not really there - just my guess. Same as Mudbox and MotionBuilder. If there is anything they are pushing at all it is moving more people to use suites.

erikals
02-06-2014, 11:58 AM
can't rent Softimage monthly though?...

Surrealist.
02-07-2014, 03:25 AM
Interesting spin. For those that have the budgets, it's just peachy. It boils down to a growing exclusionary mechanism. Only game in town grows stronger, as more and more applications are gobbled up. If you can't pay the monetary price, you'll pay the price in other ways.

Actually statistically speaking the price of software has gone down drastically and the ability to own software of this caliber has gone up for people like me on meager budgets since Autodesk gobbled up the competition. Not just because of Autodesk. It has been also a trend. And Blender into the mix has helped.

I was able to get my hands on software that, before, in the hands of individual companies was far out of my reach. And I was able to do so at at a mere fraction of the cost. Roughly 25% or better savings. Even for Softimage alone.

Compare Houdini as a specialist application, C4D as an alternative to Maya perhaps. LightWave as a good all around solution but with limitations by comparison, Modo. Statistically Audodesk has the best software choices in my opinion for the all around 3D generalist and is currently offering the most affordable options as far as pricing/available feaures.

This new rental plan is another wrinkle. And has in fact opened the door for more people to use this software with less of a financial commitment.

Had they offered the yearly rental last year for example. I would have done the numbers as I just did here the other day, and likely jumped on it over owning. I'd have more money left in savings now and over the next year or two. And would have taken 5 years roughly for it to break even as far as comparative cost. After that gradually and perceptually it becomes more expensive to rent. But that is over a lot of years. So the numbers make a lot of sense.

Tranimatronic
02-26-2014, 10:58 AM
just got this from Autodesk:

"Dear Autodesk Customer:

Beginning February 1, 2015, Autodesk will simplify its current upgrade policy, and will no longer offer the option to purchase upgrades for all noncurrent product releases. This message is intended to provide advance notice to help customers prepare and budget for any impact they may experience.

Our records indicate that you or your organization may have one or more perpetual licenses that may be impacted by this change. Please be further advised that upgrade eligibility for the 2008 release of perpetual Autodesk software licenses will end on
March 31, 2014.

Autodesk is making this policy change to better align with the needs and buying preferences of our customers. Many Autodesk customers choose to use Autodesk® Subscription as their preferred method of maintaining their Autodesk software."

Awesome. To better align with my needs, they are going to disallow an upgrade path from non-current versions of their software, and have given me a year to save up. The title of their email SHOULD have read ""Dear EX-Autodesk Customer:"

Surrealist.
02-27-2014, 06:47 AM
Tranimatronic, too bad about your situation. I know for years I was not able to really do anything major with software. I know what it is like to not have the option to upgrade or have money for new software for that matter. And it is a bummer to have a piece of old software pretty much go obsolete on you because of policy change at a large corp. Nothing can be said really. I think a lot of people will be in this situation. And I bet the decision has to do with the fact that it will take enough people off the fence to go subscription and the rest they will loose entirely. A loss they are willing to take apparently.

I am completely happy with AD and their products but understand completely these kinds of situations.

AD gives me a lot of things I can not get from LW but on the other hand LightWave has its plus sides as well in certain situations. So I see it as a matter of more tools the better.

cresshead
02-27-2014, 12:14 PM
latest rumour on softimage is they (autodesk) are pulling the plug on march 4th..it's going the way of combustion and toxik...bundle only not for sale stand alone

Surrealist.
02-27-2014, 12:40 PM
That makes perfect sense to me. Owning Softimage as a stand alone makes less and less sense when you consider how it fits in with the entire suite package and as a stand alone product where it falls short in the places where Maya does well and in the reverse how it shines in areas Maya or Max does not.

That said I'd still like to see them offer products like XSI and MotionBuilder as stand alone rentals. It would offer more flexible ways of licensing a small team in smaller studios with less budget.

sadkkf
02-27-2014, 01:14 PM
Yeah, no big surprise with this, but still gut wrenching. Just another move by a large company to rake in even more profit. It sickens me.

It won't be long before Maxon either moves this way or is overtaken by Adobe and forced to do this so C4D isn't a viable option anymore.

What's the situation with The Foundry? Any movement to the software rental game?

Pretty soon I'll just sell my computers and find a new job.

Edit: I was just reminded e-onsoftware went to an annual release schedule. So "Vue 2014" will be "Vue 2015" and so on. This seems like an indication they're heading to the rental scam as well.

spherical
02-27-2014, 02:45 PM
What's the situation with The Foundry? Any movement to the software rental game?

They just announced Maintenance.

saranine
02-28-2014, 02:11 AM
I am devoted and dedicated perpetual licence guy. All this renting is bad for the soul. It can't feel homely and wholesome to be borrowing your tools.

Surrealist.
02-28-2014, 08:08 AM
For me is about the numbers. When faced with having to shell out 8 gs just to add a seat to my suite license, or 3.7 gs or whatever it is for a Maya seat, I am not exactly all warm and fuzzy. In fact for me it is simply not even possible. Between Adobe and AD I am actually able to add some seats and hire artists for a large project that just came up. There is no way I could have done this a year ago. I am just a very small shop without a lot of capital. The numbers make all kinds of sense when you drag out a calculator. And even if we had the capitol I would have to consider long and hard about investing in something that is going to take 3-5 years to break even with the rental price. It is just exponentially more expensive to own by comparison.

Tranimatronic
02-28-2014, 12:00 PM
I am completely happy with AD and their products but understand completely these kinds of situations.
AD gives me a lot of things I can not get from LW but on the other hand LightWave has its plus sides as well in certain situations. So I see it as a matter of more tools the better.

I agree, and if you get value from the yearly upgrades, then fine.
The part that kills it for me is the years where nothing much has changed (to me, there was nothing of value in the changes between maya2011-maya2013)
Now I HAVE to shell out an 'upgrade' every year, or be forced to pay the full price again.
What this has done is force me to have a long hard look at Houdini & C4D.

sadkkf
02-28-2014, 12:32 PM
Not to enflame anyone, but I'm still looking for any possible benefit to renting software. Sure, a monthly fee can be more palatable to some, but in the end it's still more expensive and if you ever decide to discontinue, you have no way to use your files.

If the software is downloaded, installed and operated on my computer then there is no performance difference between renting and owning a license. The only difference at all is the permission the software sometimes seeks to continue operating. That being the case, why not allow the users to rent for as long as they wish (month to month, annually, whatever) and when the contract expires, allow them to continue using the version installed and disallow any updates? If the user wishes to get updates, they buy back into the program.

I'm just not interested in having yet another monthly bill knowing my income is erratic and I need to save for the leaner months. It's much easier for me to make a one-time investment into something at a time when I know I can afford it rather than having to pay for something forever even if I won't use it.

EDIT: @surrealsit I'm glad it works for you, but I work with a lot of small businesses and they just can't afford adding another seat with the Adobe plan. Their prices are per seat so adding hiring a new person is very expensive.

spherical
02-28-2014, 04:37 PM
I'm just not interested in having yet another monthly bill knowing my income is erratic and I need to save for the leaner months.

That which is really interesting to note is, the obverse is one of the reasons given where they are "forced" to adopt a Maintenance or Subscription business model. They are offloading the saving up and spreading throughout the year onto their customers. This is what happens when companies turn from Customer-centric to Stockholder-centric.

Megalodon2.0
02-28-2014, 05:39 PM
I'm just not interested in having yet another monthly bill knowing my income is erratic and I need to save for the leaner months. It's much easier for me to make a one-time investment into something at a time when I know I can afford it rather than having to pay for something forever even if I won't use it.

I've used this example many times - primarily because it's a real life experience.

When the recession hit, we lost 95% of our business. We had the Adobe Production Premium CS4 suite. After we lost most of that business, we still had clients asking us to change a file here and there - if we'd had to spend $50 a month JUST to open up the few files that we needed to, we would have LOST money on that deal and it would have been an undue burden. As I've said before, that $50 could be better spend elsewhere. Having that OWNED license of CS4 there was no worry AT ALL that we would be able to open and edit our files.

Personally I have no problem with renting the software (as Surrealist pointed out it would help in gearing up temp help for a large project) - I DO have a problem when it's RENTAL ONLY. Giving the customer the choice to rent or own is important. And... when you remove choice, it ALWAYS hurts the customer. I don't care if Lux or Newtek goes with a subscription - but if either goes with a subscription ONLY rental scheme, I'll be moving exclusively to Blender.

geo_n
02-28-2014, 06:05 PM
They just announced Maintenance.

Isnt that only for the foundry collective? Brad said they will not move modo solo to a completely different licensing scheme in the future.

spherical
02-28-2014, 09:02 PM
Isnt that only for the foundry collective? Brad said they will not move modo solo to a completely different licensing scheme in the future.

That's today.... Things change, or put another way, we're moving in a different direction, as is said so often in the corporate world when they want to justify their actions. We have seen this before when other corporate entities started with their Maintenance Contracts. When the big corporation that bought Luxology decides that it is best for their investors to move farther up the rental road, for whatever reasons they decide to cite at the time, bullspeak or not (probably the former), that is what will happen. It'll be: "That was then, this is now. Our hands are tied. We had no choice." When the company changes the only way they will do business "going forward" (wow, I hate that phrase), "My way or the highway." is what you are stuck with.

There are already some who are clamoring for Maintenance on their Modo license and whimpering that they can't have it. There are some who are getting it on a case-by-case basis. Where do you think this is heading?!

Besides, it's the bundling and exclusivity of things that actually makes many more than a bit wary. "Sorry, can't have that, you aren't on Maintenance/Subscription." Sure looks a lot like Adobe and Autodesk to me, but in an infant, innocuous state right now.

Fool me once...

There is a strong parallel between these three. Each has many complementary applications that they would like to get more buyers for, especially to keep users from picking and choosing between competitor's offerings. Not content with a strong part of the market, they want the whole pie. So, the bundle comes into the picture (much like the CC-only features that Adobe withholds from Perpetual License customers who, heretofore, put them where they are right now). Offer it at a slightly lesser price and lure them in. Once they're hooked....

Don't get me wrong. We're all already "hooked". Just let us decide when and how we want to buy your product. Taking this decision out of the customer's hands is just plain selfish and not Customer-Centric. All businesses should be the latter.

EDIT: Just saw that there's a new "Slightly Less Murky Transparacast" that was put up just this afternoon. Users speaking out is a good thing. We'll see where it goes....

Surrealist.
03-01-2014, 02:17 AM
I agree, and if you get value from the yearly upgrades, then fine.
The part that kills it for me is the years where nothing much has changed (to me, there was nothing of value in the changes between maya2011-maya2013)
Now I HAVE to shell out an 'upgrade' every year, or be forced to pay the full price again.
What this has done is force me to have a long hard look at Houdini & C4D.

Well for me there were a number of significant improvements during these last releases. But regardless I don't see options about what software to use. I do see options about how to go about paying for them now. I have been through the lean times of trying to make things work. Kinda like been there done that 20+ years, thank you. Luckily I got myself into a situation to be able avail myself of what I consider to be some of the best tools available. And I do see it as something to appreciate and be thankful for. So I can not find myself being bitter toward a company that is offering these tools not only at a price much lower than within the last 10 years but now even more affordable options to pay for them and expand a business.

spherical
03-01-2014, 02:39 AM
Well, your perspective is just a bit different, isn't it? Would that we all could be as fortunate. Perhaps someday that fortune will return. 'Til then.....

Surrealist.
03-01-2014, 10:03 AM
Well, your perspective is just a bit different, isn't it? Would that we all could be as fortunate. Perhaps someday that fortune will return. 'Til then.....

I don't think so. My perspective is the same as pretty much most artists I have ever known.(not just in 3D) I use the tools I feel will get the job done within my budget. That has changed over the years for me. But I always use the tools that make the most sense to me at the time, be that LightWave Blender or anything else. And there are a lot of people who use AD products here in this forum along with LightWave. I Feel fortunate to have the tools I have, but I don't feel set apart from anyone. If anything I feel like I am the late one to the party. Just happy to have finally arrived....:) Just probably one of the few who speak on on these threads. Same goes for Blender, its free after all. But still no shortage of people willing come out and talk it down. So I don't see how fortune has anything to do with it.

Lightwolf
03-01-2014, 10:41 AM
i dislike what AutoDesk is doing to my good old Alias|Wavefront Maya / Softimage|XSI... http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/frown.gif

I suppose you don't remember what it cost to own and use those packages when they were released... ;)

Cheers,
Mike