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Philbert
01-21-2014, 02:54 PM
I've been trying to find a way to model realistic rocks on and off for a while, just for fun. I hadn't bothered in a while until I saw this nice blender tutorial someone posted on Google+.

http://vimeo.com/40806926

It looks like a big part of the rock shape comes from a voronoi procedural they're using in the displacement. Does anyone know of a plugin that would add this texture to LightWave?

hrgiger
01-21-2014, 03:50 PM
You can check this tutorial done in LightWave. Its for creating asteroids but might give you some ideas. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hIQemrsANU

shrox
01-21-2014, 03:55 PM
For an asteroid field I use HVs, works pretty well, except there is no rotation of them, I add a dozen asteroid meshes to have the foreground ones moving.

Philbert
01-21-2014, 03:57 PM
Yeah, I've seen that one before. It seems to work OK for asteroids.

HVs aren't a physical object though so you're stuck using it in LightWave. If you wanted to open it in a game engine or maybe 3D-Coat for texture painting, you're stuck.

lertola2
01-21-2014, 09:03 PM
I've been trying to find a way to model realistic rocks on and off for a while, just for fun. I hadn't bothered in a while until I saw this nice blender tutorial someone posted on Google+.

http://vimeo.com/40806926

It looks like a big part of the rock shape comes from a voronoi procedural they're using in the displacement. Does anyone know of a plugin that would add this texture to LightWave?

You can get that kind of voronoi shape by fracturing something with the fracture tool. Then with some displacement and texturing I think you could produce something very similar to that tutorial.

prometheus
01-22-2014, 02:00 AM
There are buckloads of procedural textures to choose from,I donīt think you would need voronoi specificly and then subpatch displacement often require setting high subpatch levels, depending on what detail you need for displacements, otherwise use lower resolution of the subpatch and deform only to get the main shape, export as save transformed object and fine tune in modeler, the rest has A lot to do with the actual textured used, and for that a good high res image map, and a good uv mapping procedure for the geometry...also the shading of course for the final look.

Zbrush if you have that I would look in to as well...even Ndo and see if there isnīt any good rock textures within that ..also usable for normal mappin etc.

otherwise you could also just model the stone, with simple shapes, use fractalize and experiment with different noise values and metaform again etc..that often gives a simple rock shape..the rest is about texturing.

if you for example start with a box in modeler, preferably not uniform in the scale, but maybe larger scale in y, if you want a pillar rock, or larger scale in x if you want a more boulder like stone, use metaform and also use a fractal value with the metaform, then it will distort it to a more natural form rather than uniform smooth, using point normal move can inflate the geometry and bring some interesting cavities to the shape too...additional tweaks with the magnet tool to deform sculpt it a little further as you like perhaps.

when using displacements and even textures...dpont_rock procedural might be interesting...it has a 3d mapping mode...some what slow though.
http://dpont.pagesperso-orange.fr/plugins/textures/Rocks.html

Also check ifw2...havent seen voronoi though..the native crumple might be called a similar texture.
http://www.shaders.co.uk/ifw2_textures/pifw2_noise.htm

Simbiont has free shaders..a little quirky to install and figuring out how to use for first time users and quite slow to render often, but simbiont has some nice stuff in there ranging from space stuff to rocks.
http://www.darksim.com/Repository/tx_Stone/ (these are dsts files, not ordinary textures but procedurals) to use them the plugin must be installed..the plugin is free, Im not sure how they work with lw 11.6 though...almost at
the bottom of the page you can find the download.
http://www.darksim.com/html/download_simbiont2.shtml

http://www.darksim.com/Repository/tx_Stone/


Also to note..you can also switch invert all textures., and you can also in many cases( the last procedurals)change noise type within the selected fractal..by default they are set to perlin noise, but you can choose from that and value noise,gradient noise,value gradient noise lattice convolution noise and sparse convolution noise.

and if you use displacements, you can either use normal displacement in the deform drop down menu, or use nodes, or use bump in the displacement tab and uset the textures that is applied
in the bump channel.

Michael

prometheus
01-22-2014, 02:23 AM
For an asteroid field I use HVs, works pretty well, except there is no rotation of them, I add a dozen asteroid meshes to have the foreground ones moving.

yes..that is of course a very good solution for asteroids and small pebbles, though it would be tricky if you want to explode it, but thatīs a different story...
hereīs rock samples for hvīs ...the cool thing is the detail you can get with it that is better than trying with displacements, normal maps for detail would be the only thing getting close...the hardest part of using
hypervoxels for rocks or cliffs is to make the general shape look nice...but then again all this hv stuff isnīt modeling, it might work in some cases..but at the same time it could be limiting since you canīt
fire up a paint program and paint in textures ..cracks along the geometry of the rock model.

Images, hypervoxels on nulls, only fractal textures..same for the ground, image backround, and some fog.
http://forums.newtek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=119493&d=1390382404

http://forums.newtek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=119494&d=1390382459

119493 119494

Michael

prometheus
01-22-2014, 02:35 AM
and hereīs another hv rock, some nulls, with blending mode and different hypertextures...dponīt rock texture mostly seen at the top, though it looks very nice in detail on the surface since it is actual surface volume and thus the appearance of true volume and true cavities, but the way we can apply it and how it conforms on to forms of spherical null objects or particles/vertices isnīt ideal, the outer shape is very hard to get nicely, so If we simply could use 3d coat, sculpt it there and then throw it in as a loadable object in to hypervoxels..that would be very interesting, or simply as I have mentioned before about hypervoxels, convert a mesh to volume object both in the volumetric and for the surface mode.

http://forums.newtek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=119495&d=1390383267

119495

Michael

JohnMarchant
01-22-2014, 03:01 AM
Nice Michael, care to share your settings for the first 2.

prometheus
01-22-2014, 03:07 AM
Nice Michael, care to share your settings for the first 2.

unfortunatly I donīt know where to look, thatīs a side effect of my experimental mind and not focus properly in content management, perhaps that I didnīt think it was to that level I wanted or something.
I wouldnīt hold my breath that I could find them, and I donīt have the time now to specificly search for them, I have to clean some content and sort a lot of things out...and just maybe it will show up.
Might even be easier to make something new.
you know what would help in the future, I often experiment with fast snapshots from scenes, if I could set save VPR image with the same name as the scene name, that would make life easier
when finding stuff.

Dented..or turbulent noise might have been used, there is only a few of the procedurals that works decently.
Michael

JohnMarchant
01-22-2014, 03:18 AM
No problem mate, just thought id ask. Im sure i can play around with some nulls an HV and come up with similar. I take it the ground was a plane with HV added

prometheus
01-22-2014, 03:30 AM
No problem mate, just thought id ask. Im sure i can play around with some nulls an HV and come up with similar. I take it the ground was a plane with HV added
just fiddling with hv rocks again now, but I am not comfortable with the general main shape as I mentioned due to how hv works, I think I have tried it also on using them on the object and on the surface vertices for high
voxel detail, but I donīt think I got the results I wanted, for that the surface mapping with fractals donīt look as good as it does when used on some nulls, even though you have the basic form right.

Regarding the ground in the first and second image...that was no hypervoxels at all, only standard surface procedural bump mapping..probably dented and mixed with ridged fractals or something.
The only hypervoxels there was the one single null voxel in the middle rock.

To bad we cant have a sort of deformer for hypervoxels, hypertextures will only cut in to the volume surface, it would be nice if something like a normal deformer could be used on volumetrics, or
simply use a sculpted mesh converted to volumetric surface (volume mode too for clouds) I can see a great use if 3d coat could be used together with something like that..and add additional surface
detail with hypertextures.

JohnMarchant
01-22-2014, 04:01 AM
Deformer, oh yes and a multitude of other things. I do hope HV will get some TLC in 12, particles in LW are pretty good, maybe a bit more control but overall not to bad, its the texturing for liquid, fire, smoke etc that lets it down. Well i can dream. I would also love to see Hydra in Layout and modeler as speed and usability will become an issue with an updated HV as well as flocking and instances.

I was reading a bit about Elysium and Niel Blomkamp. He used and still does use LW, he even modeled some stuff to show the effects guys what he wanted. The ring station of which they built 1/5 of it as a CG model had 15 trillion polys and allot of this was instances. Thats was only 1/5, they then cloned that 5 times for the complete station. So hydra cannot come quick enough for LW.

alexs3d
01-22-2014, 07:12 AM
thatīs a really nice and good looking rock tutorial for blender, and @prometheur - your rocks looks amazing :)

i have tested some rockmodeling with the new metamesh tool, works really good, hope to post some WIPs soon.

prometheus
01-22-2014, 09:35 AM
thatīs a really nice and good looking rock tutorial for blender, and @prometheur - your rocks looks amazing :)

i have tested some rockmodeling with the new metamesh tool, works really good, hope to post some WIPs soon.

I think my rocks with geometry will look better overall ...if one just pick a good texture.
have to see how much time I have for doing it, might post later, I got stuck with testing different atmospherics with dpont sunsky, and mixing with fog,fog texture and mixing with textured environments.

Michael

Julez4001
01-22-2014, 09:49 AM
Sculptris - its free
Zbrush, 3DCoat or some type of displacement painter in Blender.

Philbert
01-22-2014, 11:39 AM
I made a first attempt at sculpting a rock in 3D-Coat, it has an option to add voronoi noise to your brush strokes.

http://content.screencast.com/users/philnolan3d/folders/Snagit/media/e6a33da4-e346-4f8e-9a7e-709a6a1a5f3d/01.22.2014-00.35.png

Edit: Textures help. I grabbed a rock image from CGTextures and used it to paint a vertex color map, exported to LightWave and used qemLOSS3. Gave it a little spec and such too.

http://content.screencast.com/users/philnolan3d/folders/Snagit/media/4d1b75ce-55ab-4aed-8dbf-cf83472df54e/01.22.2014-14.06.png

prometheus
01-23-2014, 05:54 AM
I made a first attempt at sculpting a rock in 3D-Coat, it has an option to add voronoi noise to your brush strokes.



Edit: Textures help. I grabbed a rock image from CGTextures and used it to paint a vertex color map, exported to LightWave and used qemLOSS3. Gave it a little spec and such too.



yes rock texture is important...I love this one, in some cases it works to just map it cubicly on to a rock...
itīs the rock texture of the day3 name rock_02
http://www.ryane.com/?cat=6&paged=5

however, I think that after sculpted rock, applying textures from a photo source might not follow the "integrity of the rock or boulder, since it is sculpted one way and also with details and cavities, then applying
a phototexture that carries a completly different structure where cavities are infact included from a different type of rock, and also not following the flowing shape that you have already sculpted...so
for best results I think you would have to carefully either sculpt detail based on the texture itself, or find a texture really matching up.

If you are an expert in painting, you could invest more time and hours with actuall painting following the sculpt, and I think that actually in the end would give the most natural look with
the textures following the "integrity"of the sculpted shape.

In lightwave for example, you could start of with a box, give it some irregularity, metaform it a couple of times, send it to layout, add the dp_rock procedural for normal displacement, save out
transformed object, open in zbrush or 3d coat,mudbox for example, then paint brush in cavities and some general deform shapes on the edge of the rocks, but only exporting out the cavities, and detail as
a normal map.

All this depends of course on what the rock is aimed for in the end, game, still shot, or animated full realism...and thus some other methods might be employed.


normal map is great for extra details though..

Below..simple showcase of some easy steps below...basic box...resized end to give it a more pillar form, metaform with fractal a couple of times, make it subpatch in layout, then applying the rock procedural, then adding
a simple normal map found on the net...now this isnīt the correct way, best is to of course do as I mentioned above, and sculpt the details in to follow the shape properly and not applying a different normal map from
another source that doesnīt respect the shape integrity of the deformed object, so the images is just showcasing some simple steps with lightwave, and not the correct way and no sculpting:)
more to showcase normal map, and the easy way to just deform a rock boulder.



119534

119535

119536

119537

119538

119526

119527

Edit...some screwups in the display of my attachments, the first images wonīt show up???
Edit2..fixed, the forum gave me a time out while uploading, thus some errors not showcasing all attachments, I would be much more happier if newtek..increases the time we
can be logged on without activity, before we have to refresh.
Michael

prometheus
01-23-2014, 06:01 AM
hereīs some oldie tests, mixed textures and some only procedurals, both in deform and in textures, no normal map...just some bump.

119528 119529 119530 119531 119532 119533

Kaptive
01-23-2014, 10:07 AM
Sculptris - its free
Zbrush, 3DCoat or some type of displacement painter in Blender.

Yep, what Julez says. Sculptris is awesome for this kind of thing (so long as you have a wacom/graphics tablet of some sort). Or any of those suggestions really... but sculptris is nice and simple to play in and very quick to a result.

If you've not used it before here is a simple breakdown of the process...


Create a very basic shape for your rock in LW.


Export it as an .obj


Open sculptris and import your object


Play, model and sculpt your rock.


Export as an obj from Sculptris


Load into LW.
For background objects, a few less polys are usually desired... So...


Put the rock sculpt through Reduce polys + a few times until the loss of mesh data becomes noticeable. You can push it quite a way, as the process hardens some of the edges and sides, which actually end up looking a little more rock-like.


Texture in whatever method you prefer (but use a good rock texture... try a few, because it is the texture that really makes or breaks it).


Save to lwo... done :)



Some great links and ideas for other approaches in this thread, thanks for sharing peeps.

Kris

Philbert
01-23-2014, 01:16 PM
Good thought Prometheus.

Kaptive: Not just sculptris of course but high end sculpting apps too.

Kaptive
01-25-2014, 08:00 AM
Kaptive: Not just sculptris of course but high end sculpting apps too.

Absolutely. If you are familiar with and own a high end sculpting app, that would probably be the top option for best results.

I mention Sculptris more because it gives great results at zero cost. A very good route if other sculpting options aren't available and/or you are new to sculpting.

Tzan
01-25-2014, 11:27 AM
Funny you mention rocks, I just saw this yesterday on the Sijun forum.

Look for rocks near the bottom of the page.
http://forums.sijun.com/viewtopic.php?t=42471&start=390

His 4 video tutorials that cover the rock creation.
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLUaaf_GznFt6N2HY_xqogcYXtyWMg-l5S
The first is a bit long, he recorded the entire modeling session to show his technique in ZBrush.

prometheus
01-25-2014, 01:40 PM
Funny you mention rocks, I just saw this yesterday on the Sijun forum.

Look for rocks near the bottom of the page.
http://forums.sijun.com/viewtopic.php?t=42471&start=390

His 4 video tutorials that cover the rock creation.
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLUaaf_GznFt6N2HY_xqogcYXtyWMg-l5S
The first is a bit long, he recorded the entire modeling session to show his technique in ZBrush.

Thanks for those, and that is nice to see, real rock sculpting, fascinating to see how a rock takes form, and even the sculptor donīt know exactly where the final look will end, itīs part of
the iterative process with detailing etc.
such hard rock types are somewhat hard to model with ease in lightwave, the new metamesh plugin would be nice to try with some rock parts.

Good find.

Michael

Oedo 808
01-25-2014, 10:11 PM
Probably just my childish mentality but as the untextured image was loading I was thinking... (http://youtu.be/OoAlf0-U7EA) thankfully it stopped at the tip. :D

prometheus
01-25-2014, 10:18 PM
Probably just my childish mentality but as the untextured image was loading I was thinking... (http://youtu.be/OoAlf0-U7EA) thankfully it stopped at the tip. :D

Not neccessarely childish, but your minds association with images, that sounds disturbing:D
please contact a Therapist for advice and do some tests...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rorschach_test

prometheus
01-27-2014, 12:05 AM
some fiddling with rock modeling, I created some pics of a quite simple process to get something rock a like quite fast, it involves zbrush too.
what I do is creating a box in modeler, size the top end a little, then subdivide with facet 1x, then subdivide with metaform 4x that gives 6144 polys to work with.
Then I go to the map tab, use textured point map, set viewport to weightshade to see it properly of course, I select and use the DP_rock procedural, automatic sizing and 3d mode...
Now this wonīt deform the object in modeler, It will just apply a weightmap texture on the object...
next step..just size(my shortcut is "s") since I use it so much...and have the numeric panel open, in the numeric panel for size, select weightmap for the falloff, then just size it as you see fit.
next step, I like to use the point normal move to inflate the object volume a little..think I missed that step in the images.
Thatīs it for modeler, hit goz button and let zbrush start.
In zbrush we can do a lot of things of course, but here I am just using the clay polish button with sharpness, and that is to sharpen the rounder edges..then just click goz in zbrush and it will update in modeler too, all
with the same polycount since I havenīt divided anything more in zbrush.

here comes the images of the process..
119611119612119613119614119615
119616119617119618

prometheus
01-27-2014, 12:16 AM
hereīs a compare between the sharpened process in zbrush with a few clicks on the clay polish with sharpen values.
but getting this is quite easy without any actual manual rock sculpting, the main shape perhaps of the box, the rest is just procedural appliance and then some polish in zbrush for sharpness..
you could and should of course polish it much more in zbrush, and also raise the level at a later stage.
6144 polys in the end for that one.
http://forums.newtek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=119619&d=1390806947
119619

Michael

djwaterman
01-27-2014, 03:53 AM
This has been an interesting thread, and it sent me to try and get something close to the blender result using different types of displacement in Layout, I never really managed to get anything good, and I don't know if it's my lack of understanding of how to use displacement but nothing ever really worked the way I was expecting it to. The best I got was using the crumple node texture into the displacement node, but it wasn't what I'd consider production ready.

119621

Then I opened up Blender and using similar process to the tutorial but without the UV map I got this.

119622

The thing that bothered me was that I couldn't understand why with all the different procedural textures and mapping options and displacement options available in LW there wasn't any of them that worked the way I was expecting them too and none gave the result that Blender's modifier gave. I hope someone can show how to get a good result in LW without extra steps outside of LW. For instance, most of the displacement options don't just work off the normals, most are the old planar, cylindrical, cubic ect. I expected that many of the procedural textures in LW would give great results for rock, but nothing worked well at all, please prove me wrong because this just can't be the case.

prometheus
01-27-2014, 04:51 AM
This has been an interesting thread, and it sent me to try and get something close to the blender result using different types of displacement in Layout, I never really managed to get anything good, and I don't know if it's my lack of understanding of how to use displacement but nothing ever really worked the way I was expecting it to. The best I got was using the crumple node texture into the displacement node, but it wasn't what I'd consider production ready.

119621

Then I opened up Blender and using similar process to the tutorial but without the UV map I got this.

119622

The thing that bothered me was that I couldn't understand why with all the different procedural textures and mapping options and displacement options available in LW there wasn't any of them that worked the way I was expecting them too and none gave the result that Blender's modifier gave. I hope someone can show how to get a good result in LW without extra steps outside of LW. For instance, most of the displacement options don't just work off the normals, most are the old planar, cylindrical, cubic ect. I expected that many of the procedural textures in LW would give great results for rock, but nothing worked well at all, please prove me wrong because this just can't be the case.

the procedural textures works on the normals, unless you are using 2dtextures in the nodes, that might screw it up, but for it to work on normals, you either have to use node setup for normals, or the simplest
that I use the most, use the
well, why donīt you use the normal map displacement? use the deform tab/add displacement/normal displacement..double click and select texture.

I will put up a simple rock with displacements in layout, you need the dp_renderman collection for the rock procedural, but I have put in crumple and turbulence noise in there too, just turn of respective fractal
and see how it looks, the mesh was divided a little dense from the beginning, so be careful and donīt raise the subpatch level over 3 ..it might halt otherwise.

the image I showed above, was almost all lightwave, I did almost nothing in sculpting in zbrush, only a sharpen filter...but I didnīt use displacement map in lightwave, Instead I used procedurals to apply as weigthmap and then size that that with the fallof weight selection.

the file attached is just displacement though..it might ask for dp_rock procedural or renderman collection, I suggest you download that
created in lw 11.6 32bit
I do not understand why you have such a hard time with the displacements, I love them in lightwave, just need to know how to tweak the scale and settings.
If you test my scene and object, crumple is activated, you can turn that off, test the others too, the rock procedural takes a second or so ..since that is one of the slowest
procedurals, in 3d mode...you can map it spherical or planar too for faster feedback, but might not look as good.

Michael

prometheus
01-27-2014, 05:22 AM
what tutorial did you follow Djwaterman?
I would suggest skip nodes, since that requires that you understand how to feed the vectors and spot etc..itīs not that complicated, skip til later..better of when you can make it simple to start with..thatīs why I suggest startig with adding the normal displacement texture under deform/add displacement not just click on the displacement "t" button..that is not using the normals.

Michael

Oedo 808
01-27-2014, 05:25 AM
Not neccessarely childish, but your minds association with images, that sounds disturbing:D
please contact a Therapist for advice and do some tests...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rorschach_test

Aha, yes I see a pink warrior.. with a purple helmet!


the procedural textures works on the normals

Yeah, that always used to confuse me trying to get it to work.

I'm not sure if it's been posted yet but this old tutorial on Adaptive Pixel Subdivision (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QX0l1b8E1YE) was what helped me, as it uses high poly displacement to demonstrate the APS. There might be a higher quality somewhere.

I just had a quick play around, I think with perhaps using clamps etc you could do something decent. I just don't have the time or the patience to play further.

119624

*edit*

I remember seeing this old thread (http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?79786-Mountain-displacements&p=653137#post653137) with Pooby's effort, more landscape than individual boulders but of a similar vein. Is there a way yet to stack deformation (not blending) without saving transformed?

djwaterman
01-27-2014, 05:38 AM
Thanks, I think I tried to load the Normal Displacement type and it kept freezing Layout, but now that I have brought down the subdivision level it has opened up. This is more or less what I was looking for and my quick initial testing has already given me something closer to the Blender result. let me play around and see what I get.

Oedo 808
01-27-2014, 05:47 AM
There's also this thread (http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?117717-Procedural-terrain) from bazsa73 which might be useful to some trying this stuff out, he also links to the scene file, which is pretty cool (no pun intended) of him :thumbsup:

Excuse me if I'm reposting, I've not read the entire thread.

djwaterman
01-27-2014, 06:02 AM
What I'm not understanding here is the subdivision order setting, when set to First or After Displacement it looks the same, if I set it to Last, then the displacement smooths off more. What should it be set at?

Oedo 808 I'll check all those leads after I've tried the normal displacement.

Oedo 808
01-27-2014, 07:06 AM
What I'm not understanding here is the subdivision order setting, when set to First or After Displacement it looks the same, if I set it to Last, then the displacement smooths off more. What should it be set at?

Oedo 808 I'll check all those leads after I've tried the normal displacement.

I have it set to First, it just turns to a blob if I have it on After Displacement or Last, you say After Displacement makes no difference to you? I just bodged a few nodes together to see what came out.

Have a look and see if anything strikes you as different, I didn't touch any render settings aside from resolution, just plnked it in for a quick test. And the dome light is so low could be dumped for some ambient anyway.

119625
119626

prometheus
01-27-2014, 07:34 AM
What I'm not understanding here is the subdivision order setting, when set to First or After Displacement it looks the same, if I set it to Last, then the displacement smooths off more. What should it be set at?

Oedo 808 I'll check all those leads after I've tried the normal displacement.

For rocks and highly detailed landscape, It should be set to first..setting to last is more for softbody dynamics.

As you noticed, I divided it too much actually for being able to subpatch it higher with the settings in layout, I would recomend makin a new simple stone, as you can see mine is just a box, tapered in the end, then facet subdivide once, then metaform a couple of times, you could make a new one with some initial lower metaform levels, load it in to the same scene, and copy the deform layers to that one, or just study those procedurals and make new objects as you which.
You should also fiddle around with inverting the procedurals, change procedural noise type within those fractals that has that option(I donīt mean procedural type, I mean noise type)

the rock procedural is fantastic even though it is slow, you can create a rock layer, then copy it, invert it, change some twisting and frequence, and set that to difference
mode and it will give interesting distortions like erosion almost.
you can further on add procedural layers over the others set to alpha and that will break up the underlying layers so those layers have no effect almost.

some other samples, I tend to focus more on cliffs or big rocks rather than small boulder rocks or pebbles, world machine is great too for landscape mountain ridges, works well to export out height maps to lightwave and load in, what it canīt do thou, is cliff overhangs or seperated rocks that seems to be part of the same cluster, with very tight cavities etc.

hereīs some more samples, two objects with a simple elevetion dragging with the magnet tool in modeler, then applying rock procudural in different layers and variations, and some procedural larger distortion for the tower cliff but also with rock procedurals, no other sculpting..just lightwave.

Texture is the free rock_2 I mentioned before..which is quite nice, and these didnīt require a normal mapping, it worked nicely with ordinary displacement.
A note...the tower rock I had to remesh with heatshrink, if you drag a mesh and stretch it to high level, you kind of go the wrong way as I actually did, you should model the divisions
along the height somehow, otherwise those parts will become so stretched that the displacement will give artifacts or have no effect at all, so I created an evenly divided mesh and wrapped it on
to the former shape with heatshrink

a remeshing tool would be nice like what is found in zbrush, to make sure stretched deformations get even tesselation over the whole object for best deformation.
Iīm not sure...but I think the new tech opensubdiv from pixar handles that excellent.

http://forums.newtek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=119627&d=1390833149 http://forums.newtek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=119628&d=1390833167
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Michael

djwaterman
01-27-2014, 08:13 AM
Here are some renders of what I've been getting with the normal displacement setting and various combinations of procedurals (I'm setting them to multiply but I'll have to try alpha now). I think this is a lot better than what I had first time around.

http://i1210.photobucket.com/albums/cc401/djwaterman/rockrenders_zps6aca3553.jpg (http://s1210.photobucket.com/user/djwaterman/media/rockrenders_zps6aca3553.jpg.html)

The object is just a subdivided box from modeler, my stupid computer hangs if I raise the subdivision in Layout beyond 9, and pixel per poly yields strange results and also hangs Layout, even so this looks promising to me.

prometheus
01-27-2014, 08:23 AM
Here are some renders of what I've been getting with the normal displacement setting and various combinations of procedurals (I'm setting them to multiply but I'll have to try alpha now). I think this is a lot better than what I had first time around.


The object is just a subdivided box from modeler, my stupid computer hangs if I raise the subdivision in Layout beyond 9, and pixel per poly yields strange results and also hangs Layout, even so this looks promising to me.

Nice....itīs looking much better already, and thereīs room for improvement to some higher level once you get familiar with it I think.
One needs to get a good sense of how much is required to divide the object before sending to layout and work with displacements and raising levels in order to have it run smoothly, if you just want a simple box shape to start with, it will be enough with very low divisions in modeler, then raise it for displacements in layout, but if you want to start some tweaking of the model first in modeler, and also perhaps work with zbrush, you might want to have a denser mesh from the start, and for zbrush just actually model tweak the main shape as I did in shown images before, then add noise or flatten/sharpen in zbrush..then actually make a higher mesh for sculpting rakes,cavities,crackle etc..and export as either displacement map or normal map..or both.



Michael

djwaterman
01-27-2014, 09:15 AM
Yeah, this is just to get a feel of what can be achieved simply, with just a metaformed box. And i's pretty nice how far away from a sphere it can get.

http://i1210.photobucket.com/albums/cc401/djwaterman/rockrenders02_zps016bb013.jpg (http://s1210.photobucket.com/user/djwaterman/media/rockrenders02_zps016bb013.jpg.html)

Like your suggesting. if I wanted higher fidelity I'd have to save the displaced mesh and then add displacment on top of that for cracks and stuff. If I could push the subdivision higher I would but as I said, my computer wont let me.
I want to study some of that stuff you guys have put up, plus there's the node editor way of doing it where in the video he shows how to use the spot info normal as an input for the displacements, I'm curious to see if that is any better. But for now I must retire.

prometheus
01-28-2014, 12:28 AM
Yeah, this is just to get a feel of what can be achieved simply, with just a metaformed box. And i's pretty nice how far away from a sphere it can get.


Like your suggesting. if I wanted higher fidelity I'd have to save the displaced mesh and then add displacment on top of that for cracks and stuff. If I could push the subdivision higher I would but as I said, my computer wont let me.
I want to study some of that stuff you guys have put up, plus there's the node editor way of doing it where in the video he shows how to use the spot info normal as an input for the displacements, I'm curious to see if that is any better. But for now I must retire.

You donīt necessarely need higher denser mesh for detail, if it is enough with details on the surface, then it might do just fine with a normal map, as I showcase a simple normal map I found mapped on to the object.
you could probably uv map it and paint in photoshop and turn it in to a normal maps with nvidia normal map creator, or even better use ndo2 or something alike that...
That however is based on planar painting..and while that might look nice, the ultimate realism for normals might be to extract it from true high density meshes..so in that case you would probably like to paint Sculpt that along the geometry on a very dense mesh in zbrush for example.

You shouldnīt worry about lightwave handling dense mesh if itīs just a normal, since you donīt need to raise the mesh level there, only in zbrush for the normal map when you actually sculpt in the cracks with all itīs brushes and using those alpha maps.
then export out a normal map for that, and in Lightwave it it doesnīt need higher resolotion...Unless you also want the true displacement map,surface only it will do with normal I think, if you absolutly need cracks and finer detail along the edge of the rock, displacements might be required.
Ndo2 quickie...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXPJ-SjkPko

Youré rocks ..rocks by the way, you do have a sense for how it should look, so itīs all good, and some nice variations on them, would be nice if lightwave could handle 5-9 at such hig polycount
and then instance them around with some scale and rotation variations and texture variations..all depends on your polycount and your computer specs I guess:)
Now go on and make those 12 apostles rocks...Guess you have been there? I havenīt but would like too.

Michael

prometheus
01-28-2014, 06:07 AM
hereīs a sample scene again..just to showcase dponīt procedural on a displaced grid, and how another layer with a gradient can flatten out areas if you want that.
see images, I provided two scenes, but you could just as easy turn the gradient on for the first scene ..otherwise they are the same.
http://forums.newtek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=119655&d=1390914213 http://forums.newtek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=119656&d=1390914237

119655 119656





Michael

djwaterman
01-28-2014, 06:00 PM
That looks cool, I'll surely check it out. Here was the development taken to the next step. I saved the transformed object, also textured with some procedurals so everything is still LW. Then reloaded the transformed object into Layout and this time I used the node editor for the displacement, basically based on this node structure here.

119687

I played around and here are some of the more use-able results, because you can get some pretty fantastic and alien shapes which weren't suitable for this.

119688

With that last rock being the one I liked I then just proceeded to clone instances of it, some of them squashed to make the ground and with basically one meta-formed ball produced this reasonable environment.

119689

This has really made me want to explore displacement further, obviously the best rocky shapes would involve sculpting in ZBrush, but for background rocks or filler, this type will do, and it's all inside LW.

alexs3d
01-29-2014, 02:49 AM
wow, thatīs an awesome thread :) the rocks looks really really good, hope i can post some samples i made soon ;)

tischbein3
01-29-2014, 09:59 AM
It looks like a big part of the rock shape comes from a voronoi procedural they're using in the displacement. Does anyone know of a plugin that would add this texture to LightWave?

Use Crust (The node editor one). Invert it and set the width value to 100 to 120 %

bobakabob
01-29-2014, 02:30 PM
119713

Great work, DJwaterman and Prometheus. Really subtle and varied textures. I love messing with procedural displacements. This was done very quickly using the rocks texture layered over turbulence.

prometheus
01-29-2014, 10:53 PM
119713

Great work, DJwaterman and Prometheus. Really subtle and varied textures. I love messing with procedural displacements. This was done very quickly using the rocks texture layered over turbulence.

I think you might be displacing it to much on the height, when you reach such high raising mountains and cliffs, I think it would be better to treat them seperatly and as cliff or rock sides, so modeling such high peaking
rocks? is better I would say, ....If it is supposed to be mountains, then you would need to expand the whole, mountain to a more ridged mountainside not peaking up that much...by rescaling the textures.

Michael

Tobian
01-30-2014, 08:21 AM
Some great stuff in this thread. Stupid question, but has anyone tried DP's microdisp, on the secondary displacement pass? I found it to be quite heavy, but it nontheless sidesteps the issue of poly counts. Shame we don't have real micro-displacement, and multi-level subdivisions and displacements :(

prometheus
01-30-2014, 08:42 AM
Some great stuff in this thread. Stupid question, but has anyone tried DP's microdisp, on the secondary displacement pass? I found it to be quite heavy, but it nontheless sidesteps the issue of poly counts. Shame we don't have real micro-displacement, and multi-level subdivisions and displacements :(

I tried teh DP microdisplace long time ago, but got crashes...and havenīt tested it since, might work better now, and I have to revisit it...canīt tell more abot that.
yeah...It would be nice if the ligthwave group revisit the displacement handling...not sure, but I believe cinema4d has way better handling..also with included microdisplacement, so it might not be of surprise
that they used it for landscape modeling and rendering for the GIS data of wadi rum to depict the planet where prometheus landed..
Though I guess all the aps and weight control for landscaping efficiently ..might be very much unused and not taking advantage of properly, Including myself not working with it.

By the way, there is some interesting stone shaders from simbiont shaders(free plugin) I just installed it yesterday to check against lightwave 11.6 32 bit, and it seems to work decently.
simbiont is a little of a pain in the to install though, you have to run the exefile, then manually copy simbiont cfg to lightwave bin folder and then manually re target during simbiont installation to
the lightwave bin folder.
loading and using the simbiont presets arenīt so nice either, but when scaled right they can be very nice looking...I will post some more samples of that after this post if I can.

hereīs just the dponīt rock in a large area and scale, texturing is only the simbiont shader grey rock.
And that shrox object keeps popping up like some kind of artifact or something in my renders:) VPR draft renders..I noticed some issue
with the native rendered not rendering out the shader, I suspect it is because I did the grid small in size in modeler , then resizing it to a very large scale in layout, and that might not
be the way to go about it, it should render out the shader with the native renderer..it has when I tested on some other objects..could be a scaling issue too..
119734119735119736
And without shaders
119737

Ohh...I also used marble in some axis direction to give it some sediment raked furnish, and beneath that a turbulence layer set to displacement texture mode that distorts the marble texture and
in the end the deformation.

Philbert
01-30-2014, 10:01 AM
wow, thatīs an awesome thread :) the rocks looks really really good, hope i can post some samples i made soon ;)

I actually had an earlier rock thread I made about a year ago then I couldn't find so I started this one. It looks like this one is doing much better anyway. That Simbiont stone looks really nice.

Emmanuel
01-30-2014, 10:32 AM
Could someone explain how I can use nodes to convert these procedurals into a normal map for game use ?

prometheus
01-30-2014, 10:55 AM
hereīs some samples of the simbiont shader, rock deformation is just on a simple grid and the dp_rock procedural.
therés options to blend the shaders bump channels so the rock shader is only applied on slope(the sides of the rock) or if I copy the dp_rock procedural that is deforming the object ..and paste that layer in the shaders bump blend layer, that way I only get the rock shader cracks on the actual rocks sticking up, and not on the flat layers whery you could say it should be sand or wind blown areas.

I think the bump derived from the simbiont rock shader actually looks better than anything in the standard bump channel layers, to bad thereīs not been any updates of the simbiont shaders, would have literally rock if the bump instead could be normal maps somehow.
these are the shader igneouos rock...the main deformation is dp_rock procedural as mentioned.

(mixed shaderblend with copied displacement dp_rock layer)119749 slope gradient blend 119751 full cover 119752


sandstone shader 119753 drought shader 119756


You do have options to tweak color, and maybe one or two more parameters, so they are not as tweakable as standard fractals ..you can of course scale and rotate,position, tweak color levels and maybe amount of crack and roughness in some shaders.
Michael

prometheus
01-30-2014, 11:05 AM
Could someone explain how I can use nodes to convert these procedurals into a normal map for game use ?

you have to look around here on how to bake textures, and check lw manuals for it..not sure if it works with what I posted last, namely the simbiont shaders...standard procedurals shouldnīt be an issue..but I havent used baking really

Maybe also check liberty3d and Kelly Myers videos on baking textures...it might be something in there too, commercial though, otherwise I think there is some free
videos on youtube on surface baking ..and for lightwave..so try search that.

Maybe this one?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OW2PTkSVNM

Tobian
01-30-2014, 03:41 PM
Those samples are fantastic Promethius! The only one which looks a bit suspect is the sandstone one, but otherwise pretty lovely!

djwaterman
01-30-2014, 06:14 PM
I wonder if we should have a few more procedural types added to LW, I would like one that does tree branching crack or lightning type pattern for example, and also a larger preview window so that you can actually see the texture as you make adjustments to it.

prometheus
01-31-2014, 01:19 AM
Those samples are fantastic Promethius! The only one which looks a bit suspect is the sandstone one, but otherwise pretty lovely!

yeah I know, I went to high on the scale, it looks better in smaller scale, I think..it just happened that I put that one up.


I wonder if we should have a few more procedural types added to LW, I would like one that does tree branching crack or lightning type pattern for example, and also a larger preview window so that you can actually see the texture as you make adjustments to it.

we do have a waste library of procedurals indeed,but quite a lot of them is sort of old..and a lot of them third party like dp, ifw,simbiont....I would just as you like to se more of them ..preferably something developed fromthe lightwave group, and as You .... tree branching cracking would be nice..thou I reckon Ifw might have something like that..I would like to see a sort of erosion procedural to use as texture or displacement that would be nice.
It canīt of course match up against true scientific calculated erosion such as you get from worldmachine, but It would enhance direct model deformation a lot.

1. I think though what the lightwave team need to do as fast as possible ..that is to introduce fractals and introduce a new value for offset and zero edges, so we can simply click on zero edges and it will flatten and smoothenout a terrain grid in best possible way...I hate to use the falloff spherical or cubical for it and it doesnīt look good either, and I donīt like messing with gradients or image maps just to do that.
cinema4d has it and vue, and a new falloff zero edge button, along with a curve editor, and perhaps also a texture button where you can add procedural for direct falloff or gradient or image map, sure we
got nodes..but is making things harder and slower.

2. a procedural generating a mountain ridge a step higher than those we have now.
3. a procedural generating erosion patterns.

I loved the photage sweep over iceland in the movie prometheus, such lovely erosion going on there, such patterns might probably be possible with world machine I guess, but something along that style of erosion would be sweet as a procedural texture.

Michael

Philbert
02-02-2014, 12:18 AM
As for baking, I'd imagine you could also Save Transformed, then load into 3D-Coat for retopo and baking to normal map if you have 3DC or want to try the trial.

Tobian
02-02-2014, 05:12 AM
It occurs to me we need a density pass for the procedural, which you could then feed into the SubD amount, to reduce it on flat or smooth areas and increase it on detailed or creased areas... I wonder if that could be done with the curvatures node, if that would accept a texture input... could be worth investigating? You could do it with a high pass filter for an image, but we don't have those nodally - to the Denis! :-)

prometheus
02-02-2014, 05:48 AM
It occurs to me we need a density pass for the procedural, which you could then feed into the SubD amount, to reduce it on flat or smooth areas and increase it on detailed or creased areas... I wonder if that could be done with the curvatures node, if that would accept a texture input... could be worth investigating? You could do it with a high pass filter for an image, but we don't have those nodally - to the Denis! :-)

Yeah perhaps, I havenīt fully investigated and used aps render level controls, distance to camera and other options as weightmaps are there so Iīm not sure about that one, have to check later, I am testing some metaballs creation techniques now, and freezing, merge triīs to get quads, then reduce polys with reduce + tool then subdivide again with metaform plus, all that to remesh the awful geometry from a freezed metaball structure...It could be cool if that tool wasnīt underdeveloped.
I will get back to that later in this thread.

By the way, anyone used a scanner to scan small rocks types?, guess they have to small dimension specifications for getting any big interesting boulder in there, I could think of going the route to simply model in plasteline and scan as well.
Or maybe thereīs a good outdoor scanner type that you could use to scan big boulders outside or something, just a thought..some rock lava pinnacles was actually scanned in Iceland for
the prometheus movie and those pinanacles that were spread out through the ground area with a special written script.

Michael

prometheus
02-02-2014, 07:55 AM
another way to lay out some boulders, here I sprayed some points in a layer (12 points) (by the way..lightwave group, enhance that tool with more control and also erase function please!!)
12 points, then created a box in a second layer ..used particle clone so the box is dupliced as 12 boxes, then I ran metaform 2 times on them all, then fractalize with level1 noise 2, then metaform plus, I think I did some slight point normal
correction over the whole group of boulders.
send to layout and added the crackle procedural ..only available in nodes(why?) plug it to bump then color.
thereīs also one cloned instance of the whole group.
See images.

All this is quite easy and fast to do, you could also try using dynamics for placements, or use place mesh on a background mesh, or use instancer and save out all instances as one object.
Another note, here in these images I turned down the smoothing angle for the surface, so it gives a some sharper edges at some levels on the mesh, does,īt always work great..depends on how the mesh
is metaformed.


119816 119817 119818 119819

http://forums.newtek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=119819&d=1391352918





Michael