PDA

View Full Version : LW8 implements Ikeda Power tools.



SLAYER
11-17-2003, 08:08 PM
See link:

http://www.davidikeda.com/

I guess this is how they make it so that Modeler received an upgrade? Implementing tools that were already free anyway?
Oh well. Hopefully it will be nicely integrated and maybe even modified.

jgaris
11-17-2003, 08:15 PM
Well that should be good news for David, I hope David is getting paid for these. They are great tools and he deserves to be rewarded for his efforts.

I just hope the tools will still be available for users of 7.5.

js33
11-17-2003, 08:52 PM
What was the name of the download file for Power tools?

I think I downloaded it a while back but can't seem to find it.

Cheers,
JS

SLAYER
11-17-2003, 09:02 PM
Yeah, it is good for David.

It appears that no 7.5 user or any user for that matter can no longer download them as they now belong to Newtek.

JS33, I believ the file is a zip file called Ikedalw.zip. Inside the zip is Ikedalw.p plug-in.

js33
11-17-2003, 09:58 PM
Thanks Slayer. I just installed them and they are very useful.:D
So many things are slipping out about 8 now that it won't be a surprise anymore.

Cheers,
JS

EyesClosed
11-17-2003, 11:53 PM
Newtek hasn't updated Modeler in the last few updates. They simply drop in a few free plugins and call it an upgrade. It's clear that version 8.0 is no different. :rolleyes:

SplineGod
11-18-2003, 12:06 AM
Surprisingly enough there are a great many LW users who dont know about those tools outside of these forums. I was surprised that in every place I taught seminars that MOST of the attendees were unfamiliar with tools like Magic Bevel.
For most users the new tools will be a welcome addition. :)

hrgiger
11-18-2003, 01:38 AM
Originally posted by EyesClosed
Newtek hasn't updated Modeler in the last few updates. They simply drop in a few free plugins and call it an upgrade. It's clear that version 8.0 is no different. :rolleyes:

Of course, you don't know that for sure or anything... Nor do you know anything about LW's current development team or what version 8 will consist of or how it will be implemented.

There's no reason that David Ikeda's plug-ins shouldn't be included with Lightwave. They're great tools.

Matt
11-18-2003, 03:13 AM
While they're at it they should put 'Rounder' and 'Jetto Fillet' in there too.

BTW: To the user who was asking about David's Power Tools in another thread (that has been pulled by the looks of it) after visiting Davids website after posting it appears we can't mail you the old version as NewTek now owns it. So you'll have to start saving to buy LightWave v8 to use these previously freely available tools?!?!?!

:rolleyes:

js33
11-18-2003, 04:59 AM
I downloaded them before they were pulled and just now took a look at them. I already upgraded to 8 anyway. :D

Don't anyone bother asking me to email them as Matt said Newtek owns them now so you will have to wait for 8.


Cheers,
JS

cresshead
11-18-2003, 05:07 AM
newtek are okay to add functions and bring in free plugins or commercial pluginns into lw8...most every 3d producer does this already..

look at max 6 for an example
they added

1.mental ray [external commercial plugin]
2.editing tools that were once free maxscripts for edge loops and grow selections
3.shell modifier that is basically the same as the free solidify modifier that's been around for max 4....
4.reactor that was out as a commercial plugin is now in the core app.
5.radiosity/light tracer that got ported over from viz 4
6.architectual materials that come from the now retired lightscape
7.blobby objects that look and behave like a free plugin and or the commercial plugin called clay studio.


see..most of max 6 was around in max5 and max 4 or in viz lightscape...it still means that max 6 has improved and that you need not buy the commercial versions of those plugins now to get those functions but simply upgrade and they come with the app..

same can be said of cinema4d when they added "smells like arlmonds" shaders or when they added a basic version of final render's tech [cebas.com max render plugin] into cinema to create the advanced renderer

or xsi when they added shave and a haircut's plugin into the top version of xsi

or maya when thay added mental ray and the text [ai] importer that does text bevels on logo's etcs..


see they're all at it!




steve g

cresshead
11-18-2003, 05:13 AM
yeah jetto bavel and jetto filet shold be "in" lw 8
so should:
1. make edges by dstorm
2.hyper grove [trees!]
3.Ptailor


and a few more!

Karmacop
11-18-2003, 06:50 AM
Just wish they didn't make it unavailable. I know if one of their features is avaliable for the current version for free it lessons the quality of it but it's still a bit .. unfair? Sort of reminds me of what they did with wave filter. There's still things it could do that LW can't :(

I'll still get 8 though, it's looking good :D

gjjackson
11-18-2003, 06:56 AM
Originally posted by SLAYER
Yeah, it is good for David.

It appears that no 7.5 user or any user for that matter can no longer download them as they now belong to Newtek.

JS33, I believ the file is a zip file called Ikedalw.zip. Inside the zip is Ikedalw.p plug-in.

There was a newer version of the plugin called ikedalw_win.p
It has a date stamp of 8/24/2003. I don't remember now but I think there were other tool in that version.

They come up as di2 xxxx. I have a total of 25 tools in that group.

js33
11-18-2003, 07:24 AM
Yeah that's the one I have.

Cheers,
JS

Red_Oddity
11-18-2003, 08:13 AM
Is spreading that last free plugin release illegal now? or can i still post it to people...just wondering...

Matt
11-18-2003, 08:22 AM
I guess only NewTek can answer that.

Last version I downloaded was ikedalw_win_beta4.25.zip

Earl
11-18-2003, 11:07 AM
Actually, this is exactly what many of us were requesting in the Feature Requests forum: take some of the many useful and free plugins and 'integrate' them as though they were core functions. I hope they continue doing this for other tools.

Matt
11-18-2003, 11:40 AM
so long as they do integrate them, basically extend their functionality beyond what was possible with lscript or the SDK.

if they're just bundled I don't see the point (with the free ones anyway).

Earl
11-18-2003, 11:43 AM
Agreed Matt, actual integration is what the plugins need. However, in the past that wasn't always the case (Magic Bevel isn't fully integrated as we would like it to be), so I imagine what we can hope for is that they are located in logical places on the menu and UI. For most of us, this won't be much of a 'feature' - but for the many who are in the dark in regards to all the useful plugins out there, this should be a nice treat.

Shade01
11-18-2003, 12:03 PM
Doesn't this simply increase the likelyhood of more bugs if they are still integrating stuff so close to the release date?

SplineGod
11-18-2003, 12:17 PM
Originally posted by Earl
Actually, this is exactly what many of us were requesting in the Feature Requests forum: take some of the many useful and free plugins and 'integrate' them as though they were core functions. I hope they continue doing this for other tools.
Exactly Earl,
I dont care where the tools come from as long as they are made available and fulfill a need. :)

hrgiger
11-18-2003, 12:45 PM
Originally posted by Shade01
Doesn't this simply increase the likelyhood of more bugs if they are still integrating stuff so close to the release date?

We don't know how long ago they actually integrated the DI tools into LW8. Perhaps they've just been taken off the shelf from DI's website because it's so close now to the LW8 release date and not because they just added them.

While I agree that integrating the tools should be a priority for good stable software, I'll take a free plug-in that gets the job done anyday, integrated or not.

EyesClosed
11-18-2003, 03:22 PM
1.mental ray [external commercial plugin]

No, Mental Ray is a commercial renderer.


or xsi when they added shave and a haircut's plugin into the top version of xsi

What is in XSI is not Shave and a Haircut. Softimage simply bought the source to Shave and a Haircut, totally rewrote it, and integrated it into XSI. The same goes for their version of Mental Ray.

Newtek only distributes the plugins they aquire as-is. Only in the case that they hire the original plugin creator, does it get integrated (kinda) into LightWave.

FenrirWolf
11-18-2003, 03:38 PM
Nice! I DLed these plugins just a few weeks ago, and I've been mightily impressed with them. Super Shift and Dbl Term are invaluable for adding more detail to quad meshes. Connector is real useful, too. Top-notch stuff, glad to see Newtek listening to suggestions.

KillMe
11-18-2003, 04:47 PM
if they do intergrate his tools i hope they modefiy the amke poyl one so it drops the point selection after you created the poly - minor niggle but a valid one at least i think so

Jabba
11-18-2003, 04:57 PM
I think that what LW need isn't another bundle of superb third party plugins but exactly the thing that David mentioned on his web page - better CORE support for standard operations.

As he said, tasks like finding neighbour points or finding next polygon in the direction of user's selected points (I don't even mention that we still can't select edges in modeler) are very slow in Lscript (even if those functions are well coded). Some additional arrays with those informations in modeler's Lscript will be really cool.

It's a shame that third party developer need to wrote that on his webpage like HIS goal (and he mentioned that he want to write 'another' scripting language...).

riki
11-18-2003, 05:03 PM
yeah jetto bavel and jetto filet shold be "in" lw 8

I think I can safetly bet that these won't be included until they work on the Mac platform.

It's great news that they've added David's tools. But I don't understand why he had to pull them off his site. DStorm still have Magic Bevel free to download. Of course it's not much use without a copy of Lightwave.

cresshead
11-18-2003, 05:11 PM
dear "eyes closed" [[CIM ]] it is with interest that i see you selectivley
pull mental ray out for study and that of shave n a hair cut...they are plugin commercial renderers for max, maya and soft/xsi in the case of mental ray that now have a free [conection and a free 1 user [2cpu] license of mental ray for each app [maya,max and soft xsi]

they are not stand alone apps..that's why they are called plugins as thay are in fact plugged into the app.

if you want a stand alone version you'll have to buy one.

in xsi the connector to mental ray has had much more time/work that's why it is superior to maya or max currently also note that max maya and xsi all have the same mental ray now at 3.2 where as softimage 4.0 is still stuck as version 2.2

whilst metal ray and shave capabilties for xsi/max and maya may differ, the concept that plugins are brought into the core is an undeniable truth to all tha major 3d apps for sale right now.

sg

Freak
11-19-2003, 04:24 AM
Is it really a good thing?

To take something that we already get for free,
is nicely developed, and most importantly is updated constantly..

If someone like David or say Richard Brak finds a bug in one of their plugins, it's usually acknowledged, and then promptly
updated.

But this often isn't the case once NT have control.......
We wait months or years for an .5 or b release...

I think NT do a half *** job of integrating other peoples plugs in the past....

Motion Designer has evolved how far since NT bought it?
Particle Storm Lite?

And really people, do i have to mention WAVEFILTER!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hopefully History won't repeat.....
But ya know it usually does........

Buy the programmer and not the program..... Me reckons....

hrgiger
11-19-2003, 05:21 AM
Freak,

I hear what you're saying and I think you have a valid point.

However....

David Ikeda's tools aren't exactly motion designer types of plug-ins. Just how much more advancement do you need on DI's Fix poles? Or DI's Super shift? I hope you get what I'm saying. These are very simple modeling functions and aren't really physics related plug-ins.
And I would agree that motion Designer has needed an update for some time. But fortunately, we have Lightwave 8 with better softbodies and rigidbodies. I don't know how much of an improvment particles will be but at least we will be able to delete individual particles and even change an individuals particles trajectory. We've also been told that Lightwave will receive more aggressive updates then in the past.
Have some faith brother.

Exper
11-19-2003, 10:06 AM
Originally posted by hrgiger
David Ikeda's tools aren't exactly motion designer types of plug-ins. Just how much more advancement do you need on DI's Fix poles? Or DI's Super shift? I hope you get what I'm saying. These are very simple modeling functions and aren't really physics related plug-ins.Yes... and you're implicitly saying that David Ikeda's tools should be still free!

This is the first bad move coming from "new NT"... hoping LW[8] won't have some others! :(

Bye.

eggy
11-19-2003, 10:15 AM
Great, looks like you need to buy the Lightwave 8 update because all the free plugins went commercial. :eek:
Hey Newtek, what about the 7.5 users.

I really hope there is a surprise, the big WOW, coming before December 22nd , you know XSI is pretty “cheap" right know. ;)

McLeft
11-19-2003, 10:24 AM
Freak, most of ppl in this thread just don't know what was Wavefilter. Probably most of them even don't know what Steamer was.

Exper
11-19-2003, 10:39 AM
Wavefilter? Steamer?
Two great weapons that previously made LW blaze but without ammunitions now! :(

Come on NT... David Ikeda's tools (and the free plugins) must still be free... stop them in further development but don't carry out a massacre!

Sorry for the rude message... simply what I feel!

Bye.

hrgiger
11-19-2003, 02:19 PM
I don't really see what the problem is. David Ikeda's tools are just a few good examples of modeling tools we should have probably had in modeler for a while now.
Wouldn't you agree that a tool already in Lightwave without the need to install a plug-in is a free tool? Viper's a free tool, endomorphs are free tools and so is a very powerful lscript editor along with hundreds of others. I'm sure it's assumed that if you will continue to use Lightwave, you will upgrade at some point to the next version.
There will still be plenty, and I mean plenty of free tools out there for download. But if you're hungry enough for tools such as DI's, what better motivation could you have to learn some lscript and make your own tools? It's not that hard to learn.

takkun
11-19-2003, 02:48 PM
Great, looks like you need to buy the Lightwave 8 update because all the free plugins went commercial. Hey Newtek, what about the 7.5 users. I don't get it. If you're a 7.5 user and you love this plug-in then you should already have it installed and be using it. If you're brand new to Lightwave then you got the upgrade to 8 when you bought 7.5 so, no worries. :)

Hey the DI power tools are really great and I'm happy to hear that they are going to be in Lightwave. And if you don't like free plug-ins in Lightwave 8 then you can uninstall them if you want. ;)

Adrian Lopez
11-19-2003, 04:09 PM
Originally posted by takkun
I don't get it. If you're a 7.5 user and you love this plug-in then you should already have it installed and be using it. If you're brand new to Lightwave then you got the upgrade to 8 when you bought 7.5 so, no worries. :) In that case there should be no reason for Newtek to remove the free tools from circulation. It seems Newtek is trying to create artificial value by turning a free tool into a LW 8 exclusive. It seems like a lousy way to make up for the relative lack of new features in Modeler 8.

hrgiger
11-19-2003, 04:19 PM
Originally posted by Adrian Lopez
It seems like a lousy way to make up for the relative lack of new features in Modeler 8.

You know what is or isn't going to be in LW8's modeler? Oh, please do tell...

Adrian Lopez
11-19-2003, 04:41 PM
Originally posted by hrgiger
You know what is or isn't going to be in LW8's modeler? Oh, please do tell... Just simple deduction, my dear hrgiger. Considering that Newtek has yet to issue a Modeler 8 feature list when Lightwave 8 is so close to release, considering the fact that free plugins have been removed from circulation, and considering statements by insiders as to the number of changes to Modeler relative to the number of changes to Layout, I doubt very much that Modeler 8 will be all that different from what we could get with Lightwave 7.5 + free tools.

stone
11-19-2003, 04:58 PM
i dont belive you can take something which is already released for free and suddenly want money for it. you can make the next release comcercial and you can remove the current one from your own homepage, but the current and older version will remain free to use and download from other sources.

/stone

SLAYER
11-19-2003, 05:41 PM
Originally posted by takkun
I don't get it. If you're a 7.5 user and you love this plug-in then you should already have it installed and be using it. If you're brand new to Lightwave then you got the upgrade to 8 when you bought 7.5 so, no worries. :)

Hey the DI power tools are really great and I'm happy to hear that they are going to be in Lightwave. And if you don't like free plug-ins in Lightwave 8 then you can uninstall them if you want. ;)

True, but what about the people that do not know of these tools until now? Some people are primarily modelers and do not need to upgrade to 8 since most of the upgrading is in Layout. Free plug-in updates in modeler is not really enough of a modeler change to upgrade to 8 for modelers.
What about people that buy version 7 off of somebody on E-bay for cheap? They cannot get these plug-ins now.
Maybe this is a way for Newtek to force people to upgrade. Implement plug-ins that were originally free and make them unavailable. If you want them, buy LW8.
Don't get me wrong, I've paid for 8 and throw my money around to every upgrade available and I am glad to see these tools in 8. It's just that not everyone will have 8.

hrgiger
11-19-2003, 05:43 PM
Adrian, I'm not saying there are major changes or saying there are no changes, I'm just taking into consideration everything that has happened in the last year or so, I think Newtek has reason to keep quiet about it's development on modeler. I believe yes, that Layout will receive the majority of the upgrade and rightly so. Layout has been lacking much more then modeler and deserved the treatment it has received. However, I don't think that means you can count modeler out just yet.
I'm not sure what insider information you're referring to but I hope it's not the old "I heard from this guy, who knows a guy, who bumped into a guy, who used to be college roommates with this guy who works at Newtek. " I've heard everything that Newtek has said about 8 since Siggraph and I don't remember them saying ever that modeler was only receiving an upgrade with existing free plug-ins. Just because they haven't said anything about modeler doesn't mean they don't have something to say. No news isn't necessarily no news.



-Posted by Stone

i dont belive you can take something which is already released for free and suddenly want money for it. you can make the next release comcercial and you can remove the current one from your own homepage, but the current and older version will remain free to use and download from other sources.

Can anyone say Napster?

WizCraker
11-19-2003, 05:44 PM
Napster.

hrgiger
11-19-2003, 05:46 PM
Good Wizcraker...

WizCraker
11-19-2003, 05:48 PM
I thought you would get a kick out of it.

Freak
11-19-2003, 07:03 PM
I don't think it's a bad thing that we get the power of Davids tools in LW..... (I agree with Killme about the point selection though)

I just would like to see them evolve once they are there....
And with the previous track record... it doesn't happen..

In the past, if you already bought Motion Designer2, FX Break, Sasquatch, Keytrack, Particle Storm.....

You got them (or are going to get them) again, or a lesser cut down version, that went nowhere after NT integrated them.

I think the whole idea of having plugin developers for LW,
is to develop plugins that extend function...
Letting NT develop the core application.....

Instead it's almost like they like killing these plugins.....

I'm not really complaining, just observing......
Hopefully NT have learnt not to do another Wavefilter....

ddho1981
11-19-2003, 07:07 PM
Originally posted by hrgiger
Can anyone say Napster?

I think napster is different... that was taking something that was initially purchased (music) and making it freely available to the public . . . THEN they now have services that you have to pay to download music . . .

Granted, these tools are useful and will be a good addition to LW8 as part of the package, BUT, considering it was available to users prior to the upgrade from the original author, it seems like it should REMAIN available in its current state for those who are not upgrading.

Just thought I'd throw in my two cents in case anyone's keeping count.

takkun
11-19-2003, 07:16 PM
Hey Adrian and Slayer,

You guys made good points, but do you even know that Newtek made David Ikeda take the plug-ins off his site? He never said that, it's just the conclusion that people have come to. Maybe he didn't want to keep it on his site because he doesn't want to give support for it anymore.
Maybe this is a way for Newtek to force people to upgrade. Last I checked, Newtek is a company not a charity, so they are definitely interested in making enough income to pay their employees and hopefully make a profit.

And I really doubt that Newtek might have taken these plug-ins off of DI's site to "force you to upgrade" . These plug-ins are good but most, if not all of the power tools abilites can be acheived using other free plug-ins like Poz extender, Normal move, FI's plug-ins, etc.

takkun
11-19-2003, 07:31 PM
And with the previous track record... it doesn't happen..

In the past, if you already bought Motion Designer2, FX Break, Sasquatch, Keytrack, Particle Storm.....

You got them (or are going to get them) again, or a lesser cut down version, that went nowhere after NT integrated them. Well, that was the past. Newtek has a totally different development team now and they seem to have listened to the users and look to be integrating things instead just adding them in half-assed. Just look at Motion Designer, they could have just slapped in FX Break and called it a day, but instead they hired the developer and now it not only has the features of FX break but they've also connected it to the new IK system and have it all available via a right click menu.

Karmacop
11-19-2003, 09:06 PM
Originally posted by takkun
Hey Adrian and Slayer,

You guys made good points, but do you even know that Newtek made David Ikeda take the plug-ins off his site? He never said that, it's just the conclusion that people have come to. Maybe he didn't want to keep it on his site because he doesn't want to give support for it anymore.

No, he said he's no longer allowed to distribute them ;)

What I hope, other than adding his tools, is that they've applied many of the same functions to their other tools to make them more interactive and usable.

SLAYER
11-19-2003, 09:13 PM
Originally posted by takkun
Hey Adrian and Slayer,

You guys made good points, but do you even know that Newtek made David Ikeda take the plug-ins off his site? He never said that, it's just the conclusion that people have come to. Maybe he didn't want to keep it on his site because he doesn't want to give support for it anymore.

Yes I do know.

The link to his site is in the very first post of this thread which is how I came about this and thought to start this thread.

Here it is agian:

http://www.davidikeda.com/

takkun
11-19-2003, 09:19 PM
No, he said he's no longer allowed to distribute them Here's what he said exactly: "Newtek is now in charge of them, so they will no longer be available online." He didn't say "not allowed" per say, but you're probably right. :) I give up.

riki
11-19-2003, 09:51 PM
We've been lucky in the past to get these Plugs for free. We should be grateful for that much.

If Newtek have purchased the rights, it means they've made an investment and it's now their intellectual property. They have the right to exploit and protect their investment in any way they see fit. Just if you or I had bought the rights.

At least they'll come bundled with 8. If someone like Woooooorely had purchased the rights we'd most likely be paying extra.

hrgiger
11-20-2003, 01:20 AM
That's just it Riki. I think what Adrian and Slayer are saying is coming across as we are somehow entitled to these tools just because we've had them up to this point for free. Nobody has to keep making these free plug-ins, Newtek hasn't taken away the right to do that.
What if David had just decided to take the tools down just for the hell of it and then nobody had them? I say we're lucky to have them in LW8.

Librarian
11-20-2003, 01:25 AM
Originally posted by takkun
Here's what he said exactly: "Newtek is now in charge of them, so they will no longer be available online." He didn't say "not allowed" per say, but you're probably right. :) I give up.
'However, I am not permitted to send you any copies of my tools nor provide any further support for them, as Newtek owns the tools now.' ;)

Dodgy
11-20-2003, 03:37 AM
As for the'modeler not being improved' I've seen several hints that other things have changed, not just the addition of some bought plugins, new buttons in the vmap button panel for a start, so don't think modeler is just going to be limited to bought in stuff. They've never said they weren't going to improve it, that just didn't say what would be new. Since LW 8 is so close, I'd say reserve judgement and wait and see :)

Exper
11-20-2003, 07:43 AM
Originally posted by hrgiger
What if David had just decided to take the tools down just for the hell of it and then nobody had them? I say we're lucky to have them in LW8. Yes... we are!

NT shuold simply let David provide them in their pre-acquire state without further development nor support!

Simple and effective!

Bye.

Adrian Lopez
11-20-2003, 01:30 PM
Originally posted by hrgiger
TI think what Adrian and Slayer are saying is coming across as we are somehow entitled to these tools just because we've had them up to this point for free. Nobody has to keep making these free plug-ins, Newtek hasn't taken away the right to do that.If that's what you think I'm saying then you haven't really understood what I'm trying to say. I'm saying that removing the free plugin from David's website comes off as an attempt to create artificial upgrade value.

Matt
11-20-2003, 01:52 PM
One good thing; at least David now has some cash for his efforts!

:)

Little tip for the future to those who missed his plugins - check www.Flay.com daily! Sorry! I know that doesn't help much now! ;)

hrgiger
11-20-2003, 02:41 PM
Originally posted by Adrian Lopez
If that's what you think I'm saying then you haven't really understood what I'm trying to say. I'm saying that removing the free plugin from David's website comes off as an attempt to create artificial upgrade value.

Well, I apolgize if I misunderstood what you were trying to say. I'm honestly not trying to argue, just trying to see your point of view.

However, having said that, I would argue that we can't really say what upgrade value these tools have, artificial or not since we don't know what else is being done on modeler yet. Let's talk again after LW8 comes out. I would just say that these tools are good enough that they should be native to Lightwave modeling and not plug-ins at all so if Newtek is integrating them into modeler, then I say go for it.

faulknermano
11-22-2003, 03:32 AM
Originally posted by Freak
Is it really a good thing?

To take something that we already get for free,
is nicely developed, and most importantly is updated constantly..

If someone like David or say Richard Brak finds a bug in one of their plugins, it's usually acknowledged, and then promptly
updated.

But this often isn't the case once NT have control.......
We wait months or years for an .5 or b release...

I think NT do a half *** job of integrating other peoples plugs in the past....

Motion Designer has evolved how far since NT bought it?
Particle Storm Lite?

And really people, do i have to mention WAVEFILTER!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hopefully History won't repeat.....
But ya know it usually does........

Buy the programmer and not the program..... Me reckons....

i kinda agree with this. well, at least this is for sure: i remember the days when bob hood released patches on a regular basis. that was for lscript. i miss it very much. things have gotten slow.. not pliable nor alive.

my opinion is that newtek get ideas and implement them while keeping the original developers developing if they wish without contractual obligations to do anything else but. but if this is the case already, then cool.

i also understand if newtek has not enough manpower to cover the many aspects of a 3d program, and because of this i understand their moves to acquire existing plugins. it is quite expensive, i surmise, to hire a developer rather than just simply buying the work.

faulknermano
11-22-2003, 03:39 AM
Originally posted by Exper

Come on NT... David Ikeda's tools (and the free plugins) must still be free... stop them in further development but don't carry out a massacre!


you should address that to david ikeda himself, not to newtek. it is the developer's prerogative to sell his work. newtek probably made the offer, but did not choose for him. it was the developer's choice to relinquish the property rights in order to gain something (be it money or offers, or whatever).

david ikeda might still be developing the tools, as well. dont forget.

and as for "must still be free", well... i dont think execellent and popular plugins such as that "must" be free. they are certainly worth more than "free", do you agree?

Adrian Lopez
11-22-2003, 08:51 AM
Originally posted by faulknermano
you should address that to david ikeda himself, not to newtek.Are you suggesting that David is the one who insisted on not being allowed to redistribute the plugin? (I know you're not suggesting that, I'm just making a point).

faulknermano
11-22-2003, 07:06 PM
Originally posted by Adrian Lopez
Are you suggesting that David is the one who insisted on not being allowed to redistribute the plugin? (I know you're not suggesting that, I'm just making a point).

in other words, i think your point is that newtek _insists_ on being exclusive with ikeda's plugins.

and my point is ikeda said "yes" to newtek.


---

your original note about artificial value: newtek cannot add value to a product by adding plugins that are freely available. that's just logical. but the developer's say in the situation is important to take consideration of. this is because a plugin that was once free, and now commercial should show that the plug could have been commercial prior to 'acquisition.' mostly likely it would not have.. but that's irrelevant now, since ikeda made a decision to do so.

i am for ikeda all the way: if he wants the license to his work over to newtek, go for it. but if anyone thinks there is something bad or amiss about the whole thing, i dont think newtek is to blame. sure, i takes two to tango, but it is the developer's choice to say yes or no, and that's where the decision, which some people seem to be rattled about, ultimately lies.

gjjackson
11-22-2003, 09:14 PM
Reeaaalllly, what's the difference with Ikeda's tools and other software companies making their software freely available for a time, to get the word out, and at some point making it a commercial enterprise. Too many people EXPECT something for free. I've bought a number of plugins for 50 - 100 and didn't mind a bit. But that said sometimes the price is too high. I considered Sasquatch but I didn't want to pay the price. If it was about 2-250 I'd buy it in a minute, especially when MotionBuilder had an offer for 200. I do think it's a good idea for companies to sell their product for much less to a freelance, hobbyist type person. Of course if I were a studio or a thriving business and could easily afford such I'd go for it. Now if Newtek just bought out some third party plugins and used that alone for an upgrade I'd be seriously disappointed. But it appears they're giving much more than that.

Adrian Lopez
11-22-2003, 11:05 PM
Originally posted by faulknermano
i am for ikeda all the way: if he wants the license to his work over to newtek, go for it. but if anyone thinks there is something bad or amiss about the whole thing, i dont think newtek is to blame. sure, i takes two to tango, but it is the developer's choice to say yes or no, and that's where the decision, which some people seem to be rattled about, ultimately lies. The question isn't whether Newtek is to blame for choosing to buy the plugin, or David for choosing to sell it. The question is whether Newtek is to blame for having it removed from circulation. I think you know the answer.

faulknermano
11-25-2003, 05:42 AM
Originally posted by Adrian Lopez
The question isn't whether Newtek is to blame for choosing to buy the plugin, or David for choosing to sell it. The question is whether Newtek is to blame for having it removed from circulation. I think you know the answer.

yes i do.

so now here's a better question for newtek: "why is removing david ikeda's plugins FOR LW7.5b _necessary_ in protecting your purchase of the aforementioned plugins? (after all, arent the plugins slated for LW8?)"

mrunion
11-25-2003, 07:37 AM
WARNING! Opinions follow!

1) Newtek can do what they want with what they have rights to.

2) *Maybe* -- just MAYBE -- Newtek is taking the tools, tweaking them a bit, then re-releasing them for 7.5 again at the same time they release LW8. That way EVERYONE gets something new on that glorious download day in the hopefully-not-too-distant future.

stone
11-25-2003, 07:45 AM
you cant make something freely available and then suddenly make it ileagal to use.

newtek are entitled to remove the tools from the homepage, but if you can find them elsewhere i do belive you are allowed to use and distribute them as stated in the original license/release note.

/stone

mrunion
11-25-2003, 07:50 AM
You CAN make something freely available and then change your mind, sell it, remove it -- whatever. It's PERFECTLY leagal.

Note: "Legal" implies if the creator is governed by US laws. If Mr. Ikeda is not, then I truly cannot say.

cresshead
11-25-2003, 08:57 AM
what a fuss!

those tools have been available for some time ...you had your chance to get them for free, while the were free...things change and it look's like newtek liked them so much they bought them to be incorporated into the lightwave core [which maybe lw7.5, 7.6 or lightwave 8]

if you missed them and didn;t get them i'm sure you can find them around on the net somewhere..they have been pulled from the creator's website because newtek now own the rights for them.

that's business!
get over it already!

i'm pretty sure they'll be in version 8 and tweeked up abit too.

steve g

Adrian Lopez
11-25-2003, 12:38 PM
Originally posted by stone
you cant make something freely available and then suddenly make it ileagal to use.It depends on the license under which the software was released. Had the software been released as Open Source, they could not prevent you from redistributing it under the terms of that license. Had the software been released as public domain, they could not prevent you from redistributing it any way you wish.

The copy I have of David Ikeda's tools has no license terms attached. This means that I don't have a license to redistribute the plugins and therefore am not allowed to do so under copyright law.

Adrian Lopez
11-25-2003, 12:48 PM
Originally posted by faulknermano
so now here's a better question for newtek: "why is removing david ikeda's plugins FOR LW7.5b _necessary_ in protecting your purchase of the aforementioned plugins? (after all, arent the plugins slated for LW8?)" But of course, it isn't necessary at all. Incorporating the tools into Lightwave 8 is a way to add value to Lightwave, which is fine and good. Removing the tools from public circulation is nothing more than limiting the current value of Lightwave 7.5 in order to increase the relative value of Lightwave 8. It has as much to do with protecting investments as companies buying off their competitors and pillaging the companies' assets and employees.

faulknermano
11-27-2003, 06:46 AM
Originally posted by Adrian Lopez
But of course, it isn't necessary at all. Incorporating the tools into Lightwave 8 is a way to add value to Lightwave, which is fine and good. Removing the tools from public circulation is nothing more than limiting the current value of Lightwave 7.5 in order to increase the relative value of Lightwave 8. It has as much to do with protecting investments as companies buying off their competitors and pillaging the companies' assets and employees.

that's a good point. i addressed my question to newtek because it will be interesting to hear what they have to say about things like this. but i doubt they will respond. but to play their advocate, albeit not so wholeheartedly, let me propound: how much value to lightwave 8 can be added if the plugins for 7.5 are still available? (let us for a moment assume that no enhancements are to be done, because if there were enhancements i would think (eg assume) that they would have written their own tools patterned over ikeda's own, rather than buying them) now because you make the point of "relative value" i like to bring that up. is it possible to say that lightwave 8's relative value in regards to the modelling tools patterned after, or derived from ikeda's tools, from lightwave 7.5 is nil?

EDIT: as with "pillaging company assets", you may be referring to something other than david ikeda's case, in which i have nothing useful to say (i do not know the cirumstance surrounding that which you speak of). however, i would like to suggest that ikeda is not a competitor, and the proper term / connotation for newtek's actions, be it personally distasteful for you or not, is "the acquisition of features by buying them." :D (of course, it is my own personal wish that newtek develop their own based on great ideas.)

faulknermano
11-27-2003, 06:53 AM
Originally posted by mrunion
WARNING! Opinions follow!

1) Newtek can do what they want with what they have rights to.


of course. but the issue, i think, is the propensity of a certain action to piss people off. what i'm trying to find out and argue out is how _necessary_ is it for newtek to cut the free distribution that was previously had by the plugins.

Nemoid
11-27-2003, 07:32 AM
I really don't believe that Nt has this supposed bad behaviour putting down the value of Lw 7.5 by not allowing users to download Ikeda tools.
there are several way for developers to sell things. you can sell the rights to use your tools so that you have the power to continue and develop them, or you can sell the complete thing, that's to say that once Nt bought them you have no right to develop the tools, because they are not yours anymore.

obviously you get a different payment for the different options.

Ikeda tools are great but you can model even without them. I' m happy if Nt both bring them into Lw as they are or better integrate them in modeler.

I think they're around from quite a bit, so that who was interested could download them for free,so where's the prob?

Thanx to David Ikeda for developing them, and to Nt to at least have the good idea to buy them and maybe integrate them , solving in this way some probs of the default Lw toolset.

I'd be more for hire the programmer, not buy the program, but these tools in [8] are a good thing.

finally, I don't really think that modeler will not have some development in 8. just Nt said quite nothing, but this doesn't mean they're doing nothing for modeler at all.

hrgiger
11-27-2003, 07:50 AM
I definately feel there will be improvements in modeler in LW8 other then slapping in a few plug-ins as indivuals like CIM would suggest. But I welcome the addition of tools like DI's power tools into the core if that's what Newtek is indeed doing.

EDIT: By the way, just a little tidbit, it said in 3D world that plug-ins would automatically get the look of the new Lightwave 8 interface because changes were being made at the Library level.

Nemoid
11-27-2003, 09:40 AM
You know, CIM can be very provocative in his statements. he says clever things sometimes, and sometimes being provocative can make the discussion more noticeable. In some rare cases useful!!

respect for people is ALWAYS required though.

About modeler developing :

I too said that I had the suspect that 3rd party plugs were put into Lw without reworking them and integrating. lets say this is the worst thing that could happen, but atually I am more confident on Nt.

I think that no software house develops only a part of their product leaving out the other.

Nt never developed only a part of Lw in its history. Only, with the old team, many things were not put together in a clever and complete way. this is unfortunately true.

But now we are into a different situation.

So Nt keep on with the good work.Develop Lw in a clever way. We are with you. :D

Noclar7
11-27-2003, 01:18 PM
what is CIM? I keep hearing CIM this and CIM that. I'm sorry, I'm out of the lingo loop here. well??

TyVole
11-27-2003, 02:08 PM
CIM is the name of very outspoken and contraversial user, who has been banned from this and other forums.

It's been alledged (but not proved) that EyesClosed is actually CIM in disguise.

takkun
11-27-2003, 05:13 PM
It's been alledged (but not proved) that EyesClosed is actually CIM in disguise. It would be very easy to find out if he's CIM. The mods could check to see if the IP addresses are the same or are in the same range. But it's most likely CIM since Eyesclosed registered right after CIM was banned, and the rhetoric is exactly the same.

hrgiger
11-27-2003, 08:50 PM
I have no doubt. He denied it at first but he doesn't anymore.

Nemoid
11-28-2003, 01:43 AM
Pls lets stop here talking about CIM, now.
Lets talk about great Ikeda power tools!! :)

hrgiger
11-28-2003, 04:43 AM
*(Biting one's tongue.)

sire
11-28-2003, 01:39 PM
The best behaviour would have been if NewTek approached Ikeda with an offer to buy the Powertools in an improved, more integrated version, for which they would help out a bit if necessary, and let Ikeda leave the current version online for free download.

So there would still be an incentive to upgrade to LW8 without the risk of pissing folks off.

The necessary integration would mean that Ikeda's Powertools with the numeric panel had the same options available there as the original modify tools have. Actually this would only apply to DI2 Translate and DI2 Super Shift. They lack the falloff options. If DI2 Translate would have the same falloff as good old Move, the latter would become obsolete, which would be fine. No two different key bindings for almost the same tool then.

Super Shift with falloff options for inset amount and shift amount would get interesting when used with weight maps. There should also be a segments parameter, like in JettoBevel. Profiles could be defined just like falloff curves - or custom profiles via background curves, just like RailBevel now. Adding a simple checkbox to switch between "seperate" (like classic bevel) or "combined" mode (like SmoothShift) would make a number of old tools unnecessary, thus uncluttering the menus.

Yeah, if they implement these improvements, then this would really be quite a leap from what plain 7.5 delivers as beveling tools.

facial deluxe
12-02-2003, 12:18 AM
I agree with the core integration of DI's tools. If it's only a copy and paste to the LW Pluggins directory, I can do it myself.....

I think it is a bit unfair not to have them downloadable anymore.

- Or they'll be core integrated, so they will be different from the actual ones, then there's no need to remove them from DI's site.

- Or they will be only a copy/paste, so they will be the same,

A good sample is Ortho plug, how long this time saviour has been removed from public ? 4 month I guess ? That's a bit strong IMHO

Lamont
12-02-2003, 12:45 PM
Maybe a LW 7.5c and under version? But I have no idea what the contract is like between NewTek and David I., so no speculation from me.

I'm getting 8 and I have the tools for 7, so I'm happy.