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View Full Version : Lino or someone at Newtek, can you answer this ?? please...



Pignoo
12-26-2013, 04:27 AM
Hi guys,

When I import point animation cache ( .mdd ) on my character and want to use the "edit guide" fonction in layout to make fur look good, it just didn't work.
I 've tried everything, edit my guide before any parenting, transformation and mdd...and everything seems to be ok before the animation, but...
When I put the .mdd, the animation is going on and guides are going crazy at each frame...It's just like if the edit guide didn't evaluate the new shape of the mesh at each frame...

So, my question is :
Is it possible to edit guides, in layout, on a furry character ( like a dog ) that use .mdd for the animation ??

If not, it's a big problem for all of us that use another package for character animation....
Will it be possible in the future ?? This is absolutly necessary for pipeline production !!

Thanks for your answer. ;)

Best regards,
Franck.

hrgiger
12-26-2013, 05:01 AM
Generally I wouldn't expect anyone from Newtek to pop in and answer questions about general use issues.

I've never tried to use Fibers with .mdd files but I'm not sure that should work? The .mdd file is a vertex cache which only stores vertex data so what are you parenting in the scene? If the vertices of the fibers are being brought in via the .mdd file, then they will be under control of the .mdd file as its telling every point where to be at every frame. Editing guides as far as I'm aware is not an animatable attribute so editing guides will only work on single frame and after that, all vertices will be under control of .mdd file.

Nemoid
12-26-2013, 06:02 AM
I dunno how it work in Lw now, but normally i would only deform mesh with .mdd animation, and let dynamics deform(animate the fur. Maybe its possible to use that with soft dynamics applied on strips of polygons with mapped fur.

Pignoo
12-26-2013, 06:32 AM
Thanks for your answers.
So to be more clear my process is like this :

1 - load the .lwo character in layout
2 - use directly fiberfx in layout to grow fur on it (no guide from modeler)
3 - use the "edit guide" fonction in the fiberfx panel to comb the character ( guides are created directly by this fonction )
4 - at this step everything is ok, the character looks good...
5 - then load the .mdd on it and scroll trough the frame to see animation and then... that's where all of my comb work is lost, the guides are going totally crazy.

Why ?? This "edit guide" fonction is unusable for me if I can't use it with an .mdd file.

This is very important for the future of lightwave, that it can take part of a maya, max, xsi...etc, pipeline. Just be able to comb characters that come from another animation package.

I think this is a bug...that's why I need an answer from Lino or Newtek...It needs to be patched.

Best regards,
Franck.

VermilionCat
12-26-2013, 06:44 AM
Your model is in undeformed state at frame 0 after applying mdd?

Pignoo
12-26-2013, 06:48 AM
Your model is in undeformed state at frame 0 after applying mdd?

No, at frame 0 it's deformed when the .mdd is on it...
Do you think it needs to be always underformed at frame 0 ?

VermilionCat
12-26-2013, 06:50 AM
Maybe you can try. I also had this issue before...

Pignoo
12-26-2013, 06:53 AM
Maybe you can try. I also had this issue before...
Thanks...I'm gonna test this...

Pensart
12-26-2013, 07:38 AM
Thanks for your answers.
So to be more clear my process is like this :

3 - use the "edit guide" fonction in the fiberfx panel to comb the character ( guides are created directly by this )

Best regards,
Franck.

I think that the guides need to be on the model before animating them in the other package.
Have no experience with fiberfx. But if you could apply the guides, comb the guides, then export the object with the guides.
Then animate? Use the other package for dynamics on those guides and use fiberfx only to render the hair guides?

Pignoo
12-26-2013, 08:13 AM
I think that the guides need to be on the model before animating them in the other package.
Have no experience with fiberfx. But if you could apply the guides, comb the guides, then export the object with the guides.
Then animate? Use the other package for dynamics on those guides and use fiberfx only to render the hair guides?

Yes, but this is a very long and painful process with a total furry character...
The "edit guide" fonction have been created to avoid this kind of work and make our life simpler ;)

So, this fonction really needs to work....

lino.grandi
12-26-2013, 09:58 AM
I'm taking a look!

CaptainMarlowe
12-26-2013, 10:08 AM
You have to edit guides in an undeformed state, so I guess your model has to be undeformed at frame 0. It's written int he addendum (page 240) :

Fibers should be edited (using Edit Guides) in their undeformed state. Combing fibers must
be done before any deformation is applied, and before they are parented, moved or rotated in space.
Disabling Deformation, IK and Motion Controllers is a must.

Pignoo
12-26-2013, 10:29 AM
I'm taking a look!

Thanks Lino ;)

lino.grandi
12-26-2013, 10:54 AM
I've created and animated an object and exported the cache in MDD using the MDD Multi Baker (I've used the cage only option).
Then I've edited a Style in rest pose at frame 0 (no mdd attached) and saved the object so the FiberFX VMAP is stored in the LWO on disk.
I deleted all the bones from the object, and any additional animation.
Then I've loaded the cache, and the styled fibers stayed consistant for the whole animation.

I've tried the same editing a cached object, and worked fine as well....

It would be great to have some content to test. ;)


Are you using subpatches?

geo_n
12-26-2013, 07:46 PM
FFx still highly unstable for me in 11.6.1. Scene made from scratch and hair applied to characters in scene and not simple balls.
Slow timeline scrubbing when ffx is active so need to disable it. Crashes when render sometimes. Saving settings on hd then load the setting on the same scene will suddenly not render ffx. So reset to default and start over again copying settings from another layout scene. I really don't trust this hair tool. Its been how many versions and point release can't believe this tool is still this way. Sas is a much better hair tool even if the quality lower than ffx atleast its super stable, consistent and reliable.
Please update the ffx content from lw 11.0 to 11.5 some of them are not rendering correctly or just plain crash.

geo_n
12-26-2013, 08:41 PM
Blank scene just one lwo, unrigged no evaluation to worry about. I remember I could turn off ffx on a surface level per lwo. Did that change? I couldn't turn off other surfaces. I can't imagine what else is still wrong with ffx. Going back to sas again like I always do after spending a few hours testing ffx with every iteration of lw.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8n9YYTOs88E&feature=youtu.be

Pignoo
12-27-2013, 08:48 AM
I've created and animated an object and exported the cache in MDD using the MDD Multi Baker (I've used the cage only option).
Then I've edited a Style in rest pose at frame 0 (no mdd attached) and saved the object so the FiberFX VMAP is stored in the LWO on disk.
I deleted all the bones from the object, and any additional animation.
Then I've loaded the cache, and the styled fibers stayed consistant for the whole animation.

I've tried the same editing a cached object, and worked fine as well....

It would be great to have some content to test. ;)


Are you using subpatches?

Thanks for your help Lino,
Unfortunately, lot's of trouble here with FiberFx....

I restart from scratch and the style combing finally works in 11.6, but still not in 11.5...
The problem is that I can't calculate my fur with interpolated GI in 11.6, it crash....and with GI brute force there is a lot of black pixel on the image.
So with lw 11.5 rendering is ok, but I can't comb like I want...too bad.

Oh, and yes I use subpatch for my characters.
Sorry, but I can't provide content...

I will try to find a workaround...but, I agree with geo_n about the stability of Fiber fx...very unpredictable when working on a complex character.

Thanks,
Franck.

lino.grandi
12-27-2013, 10:29 AM
If you could provide even something very simple reproducing the problems, I'm sure we could work on a very quick fix.

Pignoo
12-27-2013, 12:12 PM
If you could provide even something very simple reproducing the problems, I'm sure we could work on a very quick fix.

OK, I will try...

Pignoo
01-03-2014, 11:10 AM
Sorry, I tried but I can't reproduce the crashes on a simple scene....
Like I said before, crashes and problems comes with complex characters (which have multiples Uvs/maps/.mdds, etc... ! )

I still can't use interpolated GI montecarlo with my characters in lw 11.6...but with lw 11.5 it works...
But with lw 11.5 I can't use guides to comb fur in layout, but it works with lw 11.6...so it's a nightmare !!

So please, we need a more stable version of Fiber FX.

Regards,
Franck.

eondesigner
04-28-2014, 05:46 AM
I restart from scratch and the style combing finally works in 11.6

Hi, I'm having the same problem with Guides and MDDs, you say you started from scratch, but do you know what it was that fixed the issue in the end?

OnlineRender
04-28-2014, 12:41 PM
you mean this blank GUI bug ? I think HR reported it the other day 121648

re FFX ... it needs love, lots of it!

needs combing /sculpting tools , twist , clump , comb , fluff and so on

stability is a huge issue I can see why people are easily put off with it

GraphXs
04-28-2014, 01:05 PM
Yeah, FFX is still hard to work with. I can use it with stills. Even then it can make work difficult. I usually have a cloned mesh when I'm applying fiber fx. This is due to not messing up the original mesh. Maybe it is just me, but I can make Fiber FX somehow destroy my LWS. My guess is not setting the subdivisions up front, or changing the model will also cause issues with Fiberguides.. It would be great if Lino can respond with an order of operation for different situations. Stills, Animations, Baked, etc,etc.

leandropedrouzo
04-28-2014, 02:13 PM
Sorry, I tried but I can't reproduce the crashes on a simple scene....
Like I said before, crashes and problems comes with complex characters (which have multiples Uvs/maps/.mdds, etc... ! )

I still can't use interpolated GI montecarlo with my characters in lw 11.6...but with lw 11.5 it works...
But with lw 11.5 I can't use guides to comb fur in layout, but it works with lw 11.6...so it's a nightmare !!

So please, we need a more stable version of Fiber FX.

Regards,
Franck.
I also had problems with interpolated GI and FiberFX in LW11.6x

hrgiger
04-28-2014, 04:31 PM
I've been testing some this week with Fiberfx hoping to find more recent versions of LW more usable but I still find Fiberfx to be quite the struggle to get the results I'm after.

Some particular things that I find bothersome about Fiberfx.


FiberFX is quite sensitive to the scale of your model. Too large or too small you will have issues making the hair look right. One issue I noticed that was when the scale was off, increasing the fibers made the hair very dark which it does not do when you are within the sweet spot between too small and too large.
Hair Transparency- For some reason, the thinner the hairs get, also makes the hair more transparent. I found in a lot of cases this can give pretty useless results for believable hair.
How can I make sense of the various settings when things like fiber width have a default of 500%?.
I have to play endlessly with spec and gloss settings to get something decent. I really feel like the shading model is off for hair fibers. I don't think it reacts appropriately to Light. I cant really get a nice highlight from a strong light behind a model, aka 'rim lighting' (which sas could do pretty well). Sometimes I can have a nucler ball of light on one side of the model and the hair doesn't seem to react as strongly to the light as the mesh.
Crashy when using it for extended times while using VPR. Sometimes also crashed during an F9.
Sometimes the GUI went blank as Steph showed above
Just another note on transparency- sometimes depending on your settings, you can actually read the outline of the head behind the hairs which looks completely wrong.



Here is one of my test renders from this week. Spent a bit of time tweaking and still not very happy with it. Going to test some more and have a few things which I would like to fog.

http://s9.postimg.org/gb8hk7a5b/Fibertest.jpg

Some things I do like about FFX:


OGL draw model- makes it easier to tweak settings and see some results without having to test render
that it gives an option between pixel filter and volumetric hairs. Although I do think actual geometry would probably give the best results and hope this will be an option in the future.
Love the ability to bring in curves from Zbrush which is my preferred method of grooming hair and convert them to guides for Fiberfx
Seeing results in VPR for volumetric mode (though can be a bit slow again depending on the scene)

inakito
04-30-2014, 03:44 AM
Did you try applying soft body dynamics "blank" to your character so it doesnt deform your mdd mesh, and then make the fibers being animated as they are attached to your body simulating the dynamics?

geo_n
05-01-2014, 07:17 AM
I hope hair solution for lw 12 is a main focus and rocksolid and near flawless like sasquatch. If llightwave is going to be a viable "external" renderer for maya, etc then it has to have 99% stability.
Octane renderer is already implementing its own hair solution at version 2.0 due in part to user inputs that they need hair and fur in a renderer.
Hope there's an open beta to fully test hair tools in lw 12.

leandropedrouzo
05-05-2014, 11:59 AM
If you could provide even something very simple reproducing the problems, I'm sure we could work on a very quick fix.

Also, I've seen a bug that's been around for a couple of versions. When using a mesh with fur (ffx) and having modeler and layout opened at the same time if you save the object in modeler, layout crashes every single time. So, it's really hard to work on morphs or weights once you set up the fur. Is it just me?

BTW, I think I can send you a scene that crashes with FG interpolated at very specific frames (not all of them, just a bunch). I believe there is no confidentiality issues with that project, so let me know Lino.

lino.grandi
05-14-2014, 01:03 PM
Please do!

leandropedrouzo
05-22-2014, 07:24 PM
Please do!
I sent you a PM!