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saranine
12-14-2013, 06:04 PM
OK. Maybe I am coming up with another one of my banana bonkers ideas. Anyway, here is the future of Blender as I see it:

A CG company, Newtek, Lux, whoever, should take Blender, fix up the GUI, polish it etc, and then run it as a Redhat linux business model. I.e the source code is open to anyone [ as Redhat is] and even knock offs are allowed [think Scientific Linux etc] , but a profit is still made by updates, maintenance, support etc. I see no reason why this couldn't succeed. That nobody has done this is to me staggering. It is crying out for someone to do it. It would be absolutely allowed under the Blender licence [just as Red Hat is legal under the GNU licence or whatever type of it Linux has].

If Blender has any future in the 3D market then in my view then that is what has to happen. I have thought this for a long time.

Rayek
12-15-2013, 01:17 AM
Couple of points here:

- you are asserting that Blender's GUI is broken, while this is untrue. Users are creating beautiful artwork, animations, and even feature movies now in Blender. If it were broken, it would be unusable, and users would steer away. This does not seem to be the case - and many Blender users (even coming from other software) enjoy using Blender every day. Sure, it can be polished, but that is also the case with all other 3d software. No GUI is perfect, nor can it be - it depends on so many different factors.

- Another assertion you make is that Blender will be unsuccessful in the future. Again this is an unfounded conclusion on your part - Blender is currently very popular, is well known (both among hobbyists and professionals), the "3d press" publishes Blender related articles every month (as they do with most other popular 3d apps), and the number of online tutorials for Blender is astounding. Many books are written for Blender (not so much anymore for Lightwave unfortunately). If anything, Blender's popularity grew and grew in the last five years, and continues to do so. So my question would be: what research/facts do you have in mind when you state that Blender will not remain popular and not gain (even) more traction in the future?

- If you say "3d market", please specify this a little more. Each 3d app currently on the market focuses more on certain segments, while ignoring others completely, and anything in between. Cinema4D seems to focus a lot on and thrives in motion graphics. Maya's focus seems more on feature character animation. Max generally more in games and arch viz. Houdini in visual effects. And so on - they do not exclusively focus on certain aspects of production, though. Be careful with generalizations.

- Then you find it odd that no-one is creating a new branch of Blender - well, an OS is certainly quite different from a niche product like a 3d app. The markets are completely different. And the complexity of development arguably on a different level too. Also, the Blender Foundation is a very strong and organizing force behind the development of Blender - a couple of developers Creating their own branch is one thing (and academics have already done this for very specialized versions, for example) - being able to compete with the Blender Foundation is a completely different kind of ball game. The circumstances and markets for OS development and 3d app development are incomparable.

Finally, I do not really see a reason to post a discussion about Blender's future on this forum that is aimed at Lightwave? Why not start this discussion on the BlenderArtists forum instead? These type of discussions are a common occurrence there.

And I am not so convinced you thought this through that well. Your assertions are mostly based on logical fallacies.

Tartiflette
12-15-2013, 03:28 AM
I'll add to Rayek's post (with which i fully agree) that you should have a look at the videos done during the blender conference last October where Ton Roosendaal (the original creator of blender and chairman of blender foundation) speaks about blender and the GUI. You would see that this infamous GUI everyone is talking about (which i really like btw, does it mean i'm weird or simply that it's not as bad as anyone -who surely doesn't really use blender- can say ? ;) ) isn't a separate part of the program so it means the one who would want to change it have to recode about everything, quite a giant task if you ask me...

And the same can be said about any 3D program, once the basis is set it's quite hard to change the GUI without having to rebuild everything from scratch.

My 2 cents here.


Cheers,
Laurent aka Tartiflette. :)

Surrealist.
12-15-2013, 04:22 AM
My 2C to add. I wrote quite a few tutorials on Blender for 3D Artist Magazine (a legit print mag with worldwide distribution) and was paid by the page. I lost interest and it was picked up by another artist. They have Blender articles and tuts monthly. Blender is very much in the news and in the trades. All the time. It is even considered a threat and a factor to content with by companies. Autodesk had "Stand out, don't Blend in" as a slogan a couple of years ago at Siggraph I think it was.

That is significant.

Compete in the market place? Are you serious? It is FREE! And it it has been picking up the indi game market big time! A market until just recently with Maya LT and in a sense Modo on Steam (though I think it is non commercial) has not been tapped into in a large way by commercial companies. And I hear this is something even LW3SDG has been contemplating for a while - according to Matt.

So it does not take a degree in Marketing to figure out that a free program that indi game companies (a very recent growing market by the way) are using to help make games and also hire people (such as myself) to create content has had a huge impact on the market. It is something that a commercial companies have not been able to move fast enough to take advantage of. Blender was right there available. And it still offers a more all around option even than the LT versions coming out now.

No. Blender is doing just fine. Rocking the boat even by filling a neglected niche as well as offering an alternative for people looking for an alternative to expensive comm licenses.

Not only has it affected the game market. The student market (future users) indi films, commercials, industrial animation architectural animation and the list goes on.

Don't think this is not having an impact on companies like Autodesk etc. It is s huge factor.

colkai
12-15-2013, 05:19 AM
Have to say, after watching the conference videos and putting a bit more time into Blender, I find that "difficult UI" thing not so frustrating as in the 2.49 version. Now it is just different to LW, which of course, we tend to be more familiar with so it seems easier. Switching to left-clicks select and a few other interface tweaks and it is not as bad as it first appears.
The future development looks strong and though it is still lacking in a couple of modelling areas, I find it overall, a very powerful and flexible package. Stick in something akin to Bevel++ or Vertibevel and the solid/template drill/stencil tools as per modeller and there isn't much would keep me using it full time. As to the Cycles renderer, which look gorgeous, plus fluids, etc, (which should be in cycles come 2.7), I think that the future of Blender is looking very strong.

djwaterman
12-15-2013, 05:26 AM
This year was the year where I had to stop teaching LW and start teaching Blender, and I can tell you that students definitely seemed to take to the Blender UI easier that the LW one. In the end some of them were teaching me things.

UnCommonGrafx
12-15-2013, 08:03 AM
Djwaterman,
Was it mandated that you switch or was that a teacher decision?
I think I will be at that juncture when 12 is announced. Sigh

colkai
12-15-2013, 08:03 AM
I'm learning things much quicker than last time I looked at Blender back in the 2.49 days. There are just a few holes in the modeller toolset when compared to LW+LWCAD+VertiBevel, but some of that can be my lack of knowledge.
Like I was berating the lack of a "proper" Bevel tool, when I realised that Bevel == Edge Bevel whilst Inset == LW Bevel (i.e. inset and extrude). I'm interested enough to keep at this time so hoping until Blender gets some tweaks modeller wise, I can switch my models back N forth. Providing I don't texture them in LW, they seem to move between the two apps nicely using either Collada export from LW or the Blender import/export tools.
Turns Blender into a LW plugin on steroids. ;)

OnlineRender
12-15-2013, 10:44 AM
2.7 is shaping up nicely , smoke now seen by cycles , GUI improvements plus its slowly starting to be seen as serious bit of kit and schools are adopting it now...

Still love LW though

cresshead
12-15-2013, 12:40 PM
Blender is and has for a long time been in the 3d market..
it just doesn't cost you anything...
you can invest in helping develop blender by donating to the blender foundation fund or you can buy the tee shirts, hat, books and movies and training dvd's.
that is their business model and it's working.

they also created a U.I team this year, so expect movement on that side of the app.


as far a lightwave and newtek go...they're doing their own thing and delivering the goods pretty well...
of course i'd like them to do some radical stuff but that takes time.

i still lament the idea of newtek and PMG getting together...that could have been so sweet.

Newtek have their own plan..let 'em got on with it...roll on siggraph 2014 :)

djwaterman
12-15-2013, 04:43 PM
Djwaterman,
Was it mandated that you switch or was that a teacher decision?
I think I will be at that juncture when 12 is announced. Sigh

It was a decision by the department, the main reason being that it mean't all students had access to the software, that was the only reason. I personally prefer LW but people with no 3D experience take to Blender quicker.

colkai
12-16-2013, 03:01 AM
Yep, I always say, unlearning is much harder than learning from scratch. One of the biggest issues I've had is going in looking for the "lightwave" tool, instead of just seeing what was there, then expecting it to behave like LW.

If I am doing something I don't have a 'reference' for in my brain, I find I pick it up quickly and it seems logical.

One interesting aspect, i've become so used to LW having 3 tools that more or less do the same job, it actually seemed weird to have one tool do everything. I was like, "huh?". :p

Strange thing is, LW has had nodes for texturing in LW9, but it was only when I started working in Blender I actually "got" them more, yet on the face of it, they are the same in terms of use. The difference being, again, I had not had years of using "standard" textures in Blender, so nodes seemed clearer. Whereas in LW, I am more comfy with layered textures over nodes. Go figure.
Anyhoo, I digress. :)

safetyman
12-16-2013, 06:39 AM
Colkai, just so you know: There's the bevel command, and then there's the bevel modifier. I love Blender's bevel command because I can invoke it, then turn the mouse wheel to get the number of loops I need. It also works well when you want to make some hard edges in a sub-d model. I haven't used the bevel modifier much, so I can't tell you the benefits or shortcomings of it.

colkai
12-17-2013, 03:35 AM
I'm learning by the minute, have to say, I'm starting to see some real benefits, just unlearning LW is the stumbling block, we cling to what we know. I've just discovered modelling on an arbitary axis, once you know, it's so simple. :)

OnlineRender
12-17-2013, 06:54 AM
change the render button to f9 :) that helps big time

colkai
12-17-2013, 07:28 AM
Heh, you know, the F12 was the easiest thing to grasp. :)
Left Clcik for select and setting action from trackball to turntable is the biggie for me. Still keep hitting ALT to rotate though :-p (Thankfully zoom is ctrl).
I'd say, for those struggling with the interface, spend a proper 30 minutes really exploring the zoom / pan / move action on mouse / mouse wheel and keys.

OnlineRender
12-17-2013, 07:47 AM
I compiled blender http://lightwiki.com/blender/Blender_CoreWin64.rar it's an older version but if you use the start up file it will change some of the ui and make some of the control as LW defaults

http://24.media.tumblr.com/9d853618417580ed5605e55ffb3f27d0/tumblr_mgm8ag0ZcA1rvbhboo1_1280.png

Rayek
12-17-2013, 01:18 PM
Heh, you know, the F12 was the easiest thing to grasp. :)
Left Clcik for select and setting action from trackball to turntable is the biggie for me. Still keep hitting ALT to rotate though :-p (Thankfully zoom is ctrl).
I'd say, for those struggling with the interface, spend a proper 30 minutes really exploring the zoom / pan / move action on mouse / mouse wheel and keys.

If you prefer, you can setup LW-identical viewport controls in the input tab: twirl down the 3D View category, and adjust the Rotate View, Move View, and Zoom View parts. You will have to twirl down each setting to access the modifier keys.

geo_n
12-17-2013, 05:29 PM
OK. Maybe I am coming up with another one of my banana bonkers ideas. Anyway, here is the future of Blender as I see it:

A CG company, Newtek, Lux, whoever, should take Blender, fix up the GUI, polish it etc, and then run it as a Redhat linux business model. I.e the source code is open to anyone [ as Redhat is] and even knock offs are allowed [think Scientific Linux etc] , but a profit is still made by updates, maintenance, support etc. I see no reason why this couldn't succeed. That nobody has done this is to me staggering. It is crying out for someone to do it. It would be absolutely allowed under the Blender licence [just as Red Hat is legal under the GNU licence or whatever type of it Linux has].

If Blender has any future in the 3D market then in my view then that is what has to happen. I have thought this for a long time.

Isn't it illegal to sell blender for money? Don't think being opensource means you can sell it for money.
Blender has some nice tools that I wouldn't mind having in lightwave, but too bad no job demand for it in the 3d market over here.

hrgiger
12-18-2013, 06:02 AM
Im learning Blender on the side right now and its becoming slowly less cryptic to me. Plus its very customizable and that helps.

colkai
12-18-2013, 07:27 AM
Modelling planes are so simple, it's silly, I was expecting something complex, but nope. Beats having to use JettoLocal in LW, which itself is a big step up from C-Plane. Mind you, I'd still love some form of port of LWCAD for Blender hehe.

Rayek
12-18-2013, 09:02 AM
Modelling planes are so simple, it's silly, I was expecting something complex, but nope. Beats having to use JettoLocal in LW, which itself is a big step up from C-Plane. Mind you, I'd still love some form of port of LWCAD for Blender hehe.

Well, not really comparable, but there's ARchimesh:
http://blenderartists.org/forum/showthread.php?315980-Archimesh-Architecture-elements-%28rooms-doors-columns-stairs-tile-roofs%29

And someone is still working on a full cad extension for Blender: http://cad4arch.com/blenderCADedition/index.htm

But LWcad still rules. :-)

colkai
12-18-2013, 10:01 AM
Well, not really comparable, but there's ARchimesh:
http://blenderartists.org/forum/showthread.php?315980-Archimesh-Architecture-elements-%28rooms-doors-columns-stairs-tile-roofs%29

And someone is still working on a full cad extension for Blender: http://cad4arch.com/blenderCADedition/index.htm

But LWcad still rules. :-)

Good to know, shame it's not 2.69 though. Ahh, LWCAD, I loves me some LWCAD, modeller without LWCAD is like a bacon buttie, well, without the bacon. ;)

jeric_synergy
12-18-2013, 10:23 AM
I take the occasional run at Blender and I must say, the Foundation's books are in my experience EXCELLENT. So, if you want to support Blender development and learn Blender with something that has a higher resolution than an iPad, buy one of their (physical) books.

Also, so far it has pretty good Lightwave support: both mesh and scene import, though I can't vouch for Surface compatibility.

colkai
12-18-2013, 10:46 AM
It doesn't handle surfacing very well at all, any UV textures get lost as well. The UV's go across just fine, but basically, I think it's simply there is no easy correlation between Blender materials / cycle materials and Lightwave surfaces.
That said, provided you stick to just modelling, you can jump back n forth quite handily. I am keeping my surfacing for Cycles as it is just so darned purty. :)

jeric_synergy
12-18-2013, 10:51 AM
Not surprised: surfacing is problematic between pretty much every app, isn't it?

jeric_synergy
12-18-2013, 10:56 AM
Modelling planes are so simple, it's silly, I was expecting something complex, but nope.
??? I can't find the connection here: planes?? -- Oh wait, you don't mean AIRplanes, right?

Rayek
12-18-2013, 03:16 PM
??? I can't find the connection here: planes?? -- Oh wait, you don't mean AIRplanes, right?

I think he means this:

1) select a mesh object, and enter edit mode
2) select one face
3) now hit <shift> <numpad 7> (or 1 or 3) (And hold down <ctrl> additionally to reverse the axes) (View->Align View->Align View to Selected)

This aligns the viewport to the selected face(s). If you then use <ctrl><s> to set the cursor to the selected face(s) any object added will align with that "modelling plane".

jeric_synergy
12-18-2013, 04:10 PM
I'm pretty sure he meant "modeling-planes", not "modeling planes". My bad.

Damn English, all ambiguous and stuff.

Surrealist.
12-18-2013, 09:28 PM
There have been a few people who have said as a result of a thread like this they have been inspired to learn Blender.

Interesting how these threads sneak in as bashing Blender and turn out to be tutorials for Blender. They would not otherwise be allowed likely.

But while the thread is still open...

Planes in Blender are not really like construction planes. There is the function Rayek described.

Then there is Transform Orientations. You can set the orientation of the manipulator to any face edge or point normal. These are then stored and can be named. So you can switch back and forth at any time.

As usual when using the Key shorts for tranform, the first strike R for instance puts you in Global mode and a second strike of R puts you into what other transform mode you are in be it Local or one of your custom orientations.

The docs cover all this stuff very well by the way.

And news flash. There is a forum for Blender discussion tips and tricks.

http://blenderartists.org/forum/forum.php

Discussions on the future of Blender among a crowd that just loves to talk about this stuff too as a bonus.

Rayek
12-18-2013, 10:37 PM
There have been a few people who have said as a result of a thread like this they have been inspired to learn Blender.

Interesting how these threads sneak in as bashing Blender and turn out to be tutorials for Blender. They would not otherwise be allowed likely.

...

And news flash. There is a forum for Blender discussion tips and tricks.

http://blenderartists.org/forum/forum.php

Discussions on the future of Blender among a crowd that just loves to talk about this stuff too as a bonus.

That's what I mentioned in the second post in this thread too. On the other hand, we used to have a main Blender thread where us fellow LW users could ask each other questions and report on news related to Blender from the viewpoint of us Lightwave users. It got demoted to a dark corner of the forum, and we are only supposed to post there when our Blender activities are directly related to Lightwave in some manner.

I understand the forum leaders' stand on these type of threads that discuss other (competing?) applications - though on the Modo forums there exists one super thread that serves as an outlet for Blender related stuff as well - and by letting/allowing it to exist in that one thread the Modo forum leaders at least keep it in one place, and it does not hurt anyone. Quite the opposite it seems, in their case.

Though I understand there are two sides to this - and the BlenderArtists forum is a great place to start discussions like these (but I did learn a couple of new things about Lightwave because of this thread, so...)

Surrealist.
12-18-2013, 11:08 PM
OK yeah sorry I did not remember you posted that already.

To me it is all good. I don't care what people talk about here. It is not my jurisdiction. What I am commenting on specifically is how these bash threads turn into positive educational threads.

So at the end of the day would it not be better to just study Blender directly rather than get it all second hand from a LightWave forum?

Some stuff is useful though like the Blender fluids to LightWave thread.

Just my opinion.

allabulle
12-19-2013, 01:28 AM
(...) On the other hand, we used to have a main Blender thread where us fellow LW users could ask each other questions and report on news related to Blender from the viewpoint of us Lightwave users.

Maybe it could be nice to have a thread in BlenderArtists' forums for us LightWavers.

Surrealist.
12-19-2013, 02:12 AM
Well in honestly the thread we had here was because they were tired of all of the Blender threads/posts and decided to try and shuffle it all over there. It was a clear and openly admitted effort to get Blender discussions off of the main forum and give Blender people here a place to chat.

As you can see that worked a charm.

And now threads/posts started/posted as some kind of hit against Blender turn into Blender infomercials.

Just interesting commentary.

Bender fills a lot of the blanks you are left with in LightWave. It is a very natural companion. And why so many people here use it. More and more as time goes on and people wait for a unified application etc etc.

And I suppose will be even more of a threat to talk about here as time goes on.

colkai
12-19-2013, 05:13 AM
I compiled blender http://lightwiki.com/blender/Blender_CoreWin64.rar it's an older version but if you use the start up file it will change some of the ui and make some of the control as LW defaults

Just downloaded this to try, What controls have been changed to match LW? :)

Oh, regarding the thread per se, yep, I know it's a fine line between "promoting a competing product" and discussing it. I guess it is even tough for Newtek because, when all is said and done, if you are using Blender in parallel to LW to get around things still lacking in LW, it is a bit uncomfortable to bear, especially if you are fully aware of the failings.

It would be nice to at least have a 'safe' thread repository here as sometimes, the question, though relating to Blender, is more to do with how LW works comparably, or how to integrate into LW. An example is the surfaces issue, but I don't see any way around that barring someone being clever wnough to write a surface parser, even then, I doubt that is truly do-able given the complexity of surfacing.

cresshead
12-19-2013, 07:53 AM
i think as long as the thread content is weighted toward blender+lightwave in production it should be fine...just as if i created a zbrush + lightwave thread or a 3dsMax+lightwave thread. If your using Blender to fill a tools gap (sculpting, fluids, gpu renderer, compositing, photoreal hair) or a workflow gap such as modelling in camera view, corrective morphs or painting weights/adjusting weights in posed camera viewport that's something lightwave cannot do that i don't see a real issue.

safetyman
12-19-2013, 08:17 AM
I'll try to tie this back to LW, but don't kill me if I can't. I thought I'd chime in about LWCAD... There are a few plugins available for Blender, like Archimesh to name one (http://wiki.blender.org/index.php/Extensions:2.6/Py/Scripts/Add_Mesh/Archimesh), that can help fill the gap, and I'm sure there are enough out there if you look that can come fairly close.

The biggest problem for me with regards to CAD-type work is the apparent lack of precise placement options. For instance, in LW, if I want to move points or whatever, like the end of a wall to a certain length, I just type it in and it's there. In Blender, I seem to have a hard time getting things exactly where I want them, since there seems to be a disconnect between the measurements in Object Mode versus Edit Mode. I know about the measurement tool, and that helps, but if I have, say, a wall that's 20 feet long and I want to move one side of it 5 feet, I can't seem to do it very easily. Since I use Blender mostly for organic modeling, this isn't really a big deal for me, but can someone enlighten me on the best method to move things precisely in Blender?

cresshead
12-19-2013, 08:49 AM
procedual modeling...something that houdini does and can be done in blender too

great for making lots of background buildings if your need to flesh out a large arch viz scene or a town scene.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILT2KRF0r58#t=39


it's not easy to follow...so you've been warned...lot's of code in there!

colkai
12-19-2013, 10:08 AM
LWs precision coupled with LWCAD snapping make it the main reason I still model in it, Blender does have Meteric units and putting in values numerically, it seems to honour them, I can place ploys / vertices where I want them globally. LWCAD though does make life so simple in that regard.

Edit: Cresshead - EEK! I have enough trouble with relativity, let alone that!

Surrealist.
12-19-2013, 11:34 AM
can someone enlighten me on the best method to move things precisely in Blender?

Well, this is primarily what I have been using Blender for. Very detailed exact modeling. I have modeled scores of fairly complex, models that need mechanical accuracy for rigging and being put into a game engine. Privot points and precision placement of parts, snapped just so.

Maybe I am not understanding your question here, if so sorry. But here are my methods.

If I want to scale something to move something to a specific point there are a few options. The first obvious one is simply the keyboard inputs. That handles your example. That is, it will move it from the point it is at to the specified distance you enter numerically. A wall end from 20 feet to 25 feet. Enter (whatever your scale and conversion is numerically) and the end of the wall will move there. For example Blender unit considered 1 meter 5 feet enter 1.524. All selected points will move as a group and maintain spacing by that exact distance.

The second is the numeric panel (n) on the keyboard which will move selected points right to that specific location. Or the median (the center of selection) of a group of points to a specific location.

The next option is scaling to meet the cursor you probably know. But that is one of the most common one I use. That with the 3D cursor and options I can rotate scale and move things very precisely and lock parts exactly to where they need to pivot from with ease.

When I need to scale an object so that it meets plans, I use two basic methods. The first is, if possible, I make a square image of the plan. And crop it so that the ends of one measurement meet the end of the image. To get a visual, this works great for airplanes where you know the wingspan and that is wider usually than the length. So I crop it to the wings.

Image size in Blender is precise. The size of the BG image will be the size in Blender units. So for example a 2x2 cube fits an image sized to 1. It measures from the center out on each side so the image size is always 1/2 of the model size.

If I don't have that, but none the less have a CAD drawing with measurements, I simply make it any size. And when I am done. I create an edge that goes from the start and end point of one of the known measurements. Turn on edge lengths in the display options under mesh in edit mode. And then scale the whole model til that edge is the length specified in the drawing.

Generally speaking I prefer to go by precise drawings. If I don't have them I try my best to construct something in Photoshop from the best photos I can find that show the object in profiles. In general layout in photoshop is key.

Since I am not modeling something to manufacture standards, all I have to do is keep all my models to one relative scale to each other and have them look right.

There are probably a few things I have forgotten but this is the basics.

Softimage also has pretty much all of these functions but in slightly different flavor. Maya too which I use now. But a little different and a few things I have not figured out how to duplicate yet.

geo_n
12-19-2013, 05:50 PM
Its becoming a blender how-to thread.

There's an exisitng thread
http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?119527-1001-ways-to-use-LW-and-Blender-together/page11

Surrealist.
12-19-2013, 10:43 PM
Actually if you really want to use Blender, this is the place to be:

http://wiki.blender.org/index.php/Doc:2.6/Manual

And here:

http://blenderartists.org/forum/forumdisplay.php?7-Support

And here:

http://cgcookie.com/blender/

As well as here:

http://www.blenderguru.com/

And don't forget:

www.google.com

How to use Blender with LightWave belongs here:

http://forums.newtek.com/forumdisplay.php?28-LW-General-Techniques-Tips-amp-Tricks

Forum mods may disagree.

My opinion.

geo_n
12-19-2013, 10:56 PM
Yep so probably best to close this thread since its teaching how to do blender specific commands in a lightwave forum.

Surrealist.
12-19-2013, 11:28 PM
Guilty as charged.:D

But not without the comment that as long as it was a thread that continued to go on bashing Blender, and like other threads on other large corp software companies, it is OK.

In other words it is OK to talk about other 3D software, or 3D companies as long as the information is sufficiently false to steer people away. It is all good.

That's a double standard.

And it goes directly against my sensibility as an artist.

Or another way, if you say false things about LightWave here, you get taken to task. And it requires that you correct people with direct facts about LightWave, links to materials etc.

This is after all a LightWave forum.

But if you say false things about Maya , Blender, Autodesk, it is safe ground, because you know other people can not safely correct people's incorrect information without being afraid of someone calling you out on it because this is a LightWave forum. You are in the safe to be totally wrong zone!

So it has to go both ways.

It has to be off topic to bash other software as well. Most negative posts on other software are rife with information that is incorrect, assumed or simply ignorant.

And it is just one of those things that is a big pet peeve with me.

Now I know that has not happened in a big way here. Only the OP. But it intimated at technical things which are not correct. And then you get the technical responses which leads inevitably into a how-to fest.

Frankly I think it is a refreshing change with Blender talks of late.

And as long as software bashing is allowed, I will violate forum policy and correct the false information.

Clearly I have gone way over the top here and gave a tutorial on precision modeling. But I'd rather see something like that than...."oh woes me Blender's interface is impossible, not up to standards.... bla bla bla.

So shoot me. :D

colkai
12-20-2013, 02:16 AM
<<BANG>>! Sorry, couldn't resist. ;-)
But seriously, I totally agree with what you are saying. I have started to post over at BA but I thought it might be interesting to hear from any other LW users who use Blender as well. Assuming of course, they want to admit to using it, as you say, there is a stigma about it which I am rapidly starting to think is over-hyped and fostered by the "fear the unknown" train of thought.

safetyman
12-20-2013, 06:53 AM
I think the main purpose ultimately of these "other 3d software" threads is so that we can gauge how LW is doing and make suggestions for improvement. I've seen LW improve quite well over the last few iterations, but IMO it's still lagging way behind in a lot of areas. Blender has become my go-to modeling program because it is dramatically more suitable for what I do. That's just me and I don't expect anyone else to feel the same way. I think that we can all benefit from those of us who use other software to get our jobs done by relating procedures and tools that work and, hopefully, find their way into LW someday.

geo_n
12-20-2013, 08:00 AM
Yeah sure if the discussion was about how not to copy mistakes and bad workflow from app X into lw that would be great. But it was getting into the realm of actually replacing lw with blender and some cad tools, tutorials for blender.
As mentioned in this thread
http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?139171-LightWave-vs-run-what-ya-brung
"This is not a public forum. It is private."

Surrealist.
12-20-2013, 08:56 AM
Coming back to haunt me I see. :D

Did you think I forgot or something?

Of course not. Those words were spoken in the context of something else entirely.

I do think I have raised some points that are worth consideration, within the context of threads like this.

Remember this thread did not start out as a thread about Blender/Lightwave workflow.

It started out as how bad off poor poor Blender is. And NewTek (or other company) should pick up poor little failing Blender.

Now that has turned into how LightWave is threatened by Blender because this is an off topic discussion.

Interesting isn't it?

In fact these "Bash Blender" threads have done more to interest people in Blender than turn them away.

colkai
12-20-2013, 09:36 AM
If the surface thing could be addressed, I think it would become a very serious viability for a two-way street pipeline, but again, I really don't see that as being likely. That said, not having 11.5/6 I dunno if a.n.other exporter from modeller would transfer surfaces to blender in a better way. It has always been my thought that the nature of different packages interpreting surface data means it is unlikely that anything but the basic colour etc could be done. Turning surface layers from LW into Blender nodes, or any other package surface, I would imagine is a mssive coding project all on its own.

Ryan Roye
12-20-2013, 03:24 PM
I don't really consider Blender as something that competes directly with Lightwave... that of course is totally debatable. You know how complementary products work in grocery stores? Well, Lightwave is sweetener and Blender is creamer in my coffee. :D ... Blender in my opinion can't completely replace Lightwave because it has different areas of focus regarding how the toolset was made and what it is optimal for.

A lot of 3d artists use multiple 3d softwares to take advantage of their strengths... but for smaller businesses and individuals this usually isn't (legally) an option; maintaining multiple licenses and keeping them up to date is expensive and Lightwave provides the highest return on investment in the market. Blender, and other open source software can allow Lightwave artists to have a "multi-app" enhanced workflow without a heavy financial investment.

That said... any advancements and developments in Blender is good news for Lightwave users in my book; it lets us do more with less.

safetyman
12-20-2013, 05:41 PM
I didn't know this thread was about Blender replacing LW. If my comments related that, then I apologize as that was not what I was trying to say. There are a few of us dedicated LW users here that use and like Blender and see it as a way to enhance our workflow.

geo_n
12-20-2013, 07:44 PM
I don't really consider Blender as something that competes directly with Lightwave.

With Blender being a full animation package it does compete directly with lightwave. In fact some of the lw users I admired completely switched to blender from lw.
Bugzilla had a nice youtube channel full of useful lw info. He switched to blender completely but I'm glad he's not coming into the lw forums pushing people tp switch to blender.
I just find blender users to be so pushy in many forums trying to put blender down people's throat. The latest, the Modo Steam forum was terrible. Blender users would chime in to tell potential customers not to buy Modo Steam because Blender is free so why pay for Modo Steam.

geo_n
12-20-2013, 07:49 PM
Coming back to haunt me I see. :D


I forgot. Bang! :D
The thread started in a general direction but when people start offering alternative tools to lw tools, tutorials, step by step stuff then its nothing more a thread trying to influence people to use blender instead of lw. Its not surprising the posts come from blender users.

Greenlaw
12-21-2013, 01:23 AM
Thanks for posting those links.

I'm starting to learn Blender myself--not to replace LightWave, which is my primary 3D app, but as a supporting tool for creating fx with fluids and for other specialty features not available in LightWave. I currently use several 3D programs to support my LightWave work, including Motion Builder, 3D Coat, ZBrush, and Maya to name only a few--Blender will become just one more tool in my kit.

G.

Surrealist.
12-21-2013, 01:30 AM
I forgot. Bang! :D
The thread started in a general direction but when people start offering alternative tools to lw tools, tutorials, step by step stuff then its nothing more a thread trying to influence people to use blender instead of lw. Its not surprising the posts come from blender users.

Well there was not anyone forcing anything in this thread.

And of course it is not suprising, duh, we use Blender! What is that supposed to mean! lol :D

The post in question in fact was simply a response to a question from another LightWave/Blender user.

Other threads have nothing to do with this one.

And again, put succinctly, you want Blender users to stop talking up Blender, then stop talking it down.

I did not even read that thread, but the fact you presented is a valid marketing point. What exactly does Modeler or LightWave have to offer as a stand alone app have that Blender can not do and more?

One would be wise to sort that one out before committing funds so such a thing.

Marketing would include that reality as well as Modo Steam and Maya LT. If not, it would be foolish.

Because in reality Blender is already on that market. And has been for years.

Surrealist.
12-21-2013, 01:36 AM
Thanks for posting those links.

I'm starting to learn Blender myself--not to replace LightWave, which is my primary 3D app, but as a supporting tool for creating fx with fluids and for other specialty features not available in LightWave. I currently use several 3D programs to support my LightWave work, including Motion Builder, 3D Coat, ZBrush, and Maya to name only a few--Blender will become just one more tool in my kit.

G.

Yeah I actually try to shy away from Blender to other apps, but I still keep getting work in Blender so I am cursed. lol

So I am actually kind of curious since I use a lot of the apps that you use there. And if I was using them already I would not likely add Blender to my workflow. For me it was a progression in the other direction. What about Blender do you like that adds to what you already have?

jeric_synergy
12-21-2013, 10:12 AM
So, to someone peripheral to all the passion going on here (eyeroll), my impression is that Blender is valuable as an adjunct to Lightwave in mostly two ways:

1) fluid simulations, and
2) UV creation.

And, I happen to know that the IVY GENERATOR, which is usually lumped in w/Blender (I can't remember why) exports OBJ meshes, and so is compatible w/LW. AFAIK, there's NO comparable utility in the LW-centric world.

50one
12-21-2013, 11:08 AM
So, to someone peripheral to all the passion going on here (eyeroll), my impression is that Blender is valuable as an adjunct to Lightwave in mostly two ways:

1) fluid simulations, and
2) UV creation.

And, I happen to know that the IVY GENERATOR, which is usually lumped in w/Blender (I can't remember why) exports OBJ meshes, and so is compatible w/LW. AFAIK, there's NO comparable utility in the LW-centric world.


3. File conversion
4. Smoke simulator
5. Compositor, roto, tracking
6. Sculpting, re-topo

allabulle
12-21-2013, 11:11 AM
7. Linux

(The battle here to keep a workstation using Windows and LightWave is difficult at times)

50one
12-21-2013, 11:30 AM
7. Linux

(The battle here to keep a workstation using Windows and LightWave is difficult at times)

The post above was about things that could help Lightwave and are available in Blender, how linux version of Blender can help Lightwave ? Or Am I missing something here?:hey:

jeric_synergy
12-21-2013, 11:48 AM
Right!: a lot of people don't know that Blender includes a non-linear editing facility AND a (nodal?) compositor.

I think the editor is called the Sequence Editor.

allabulle
12-21-2013, 01:01 PM
No, you are not missing anything but my desperate need for a Linux port. :)

But yet, I can use and construct assets back and forth because there's a Linux version of Blender (like other software we use). I can use it on my Windows workstation and pass assets to the rest to keep working and rendering. Having a multi-platform application that has Linux support is pretty useful. And being Blender one of those helps LightWave in certain environments.

I'm sure I explained myself horribly, but yeah, there's a point where having Blender along with LightWave is useful because it has a Linux version even if LightWave has not.

geo_n
12-22-2013, 12:14 AM
Well there was not anyone forcing anything in this thread.

And of course it is not suprising, duh, we use Blender! What is that supposed to mean! lol :D

The post in question in fact was simply a response to a question from another LightWave/Blender user.

Other threads have nothing to do with this one.

And again, put succinctly, you want Blender users to stop talking up Blender, then stop talking it down.

I did not even read that thread, but the fact you presented is a valid marketing point. What exactly does Modeler or LightWave have to offer as a stand alone app have that Blender can not do and more?

One would be wise to sort that one out before committing funds so such a thing.

Marketing would include that reality as well as Modo Steam and Maya LT. If not, it would be foolish.

Because in reality Blender is already on that market. And has been for years.



See there again. Pointing out that lightwave offers nothing as a stand alone app compared to blender.
Follow your own advise from the other thread. Just saying. :D

Again theres already blender lw threads in the forum which focus in integrating some blender features to use with lw. Not replace lw and make a step by step tutorial on blender itself only. Google does that better anyway.

safetyman
12-23-2013, 08:49 AM
8. Texture painting (and a few innovative folks have used it as a 2d art tool)
9. Not just a better UV editor, but UV sculpting and painting, as well as weight mirroring, weight transferring and much more. You can weight paint a model with a mirror modifier and when you apply the mirror all the weights are assigned to the proper named vertex groups.
10. Normal map baking from hi-res sculpted mesh to low res (not sure if LW has this or not, but it works really well).
11. A bunch of mesh modifiers too numerous to mention here.
12. A bunch of 3rd party renderers (most offered free) <-- although you can't count this one since I think LW's renderer is top-notch
13. Updated 4 or more times a year.

Rayek
12-23-2013, 01:23 PM
Blender usage list for Lightwavers


1) fluid simulations, and
2) UV creation.
3. File conversion
4. Smoke simulator
5. Compositor, roto, tracking
6. Sculpting, re-topo
8. Texture painting (and a few innovative folks have used it as a 2d art tool)
9. Not just a better UV editor, but UV sculpting and painting, as well as weight mirroring, weight transferring and much more. You can weight paint a model with a mirror modifier and when you apply the mirror all the weights are assigned to the proper named vertex groups.
10. Normal map baking from hi-res sculpted mesh to low res (not sure if LW has this or not, but it works really well).
11. A bunch of mesh modifiers too numerous to mention here.
12. A bunch of 3rd party renderers (most offered free) <-- although you can't count this one since I think LW's renderer is top-notch
13. Updated 4 or more times a year.
14. sequence / video editor for simple & quick clip edits


15) Realtime game mode to preview game models and "fly" through levels (though LW 11.6 now has CgFX shaders, also handy - but I am still on 9.6)
16) Game mode for quick game prototyping without the need for much code (visual coding)