PDA

View Full Version : Is Lightwave missing marketing/sales opportunities?



saranine
12-13-2013, 09:22 PM
3D printing reminds me a bit of where the home PC desktop was in about 1990 to 1995. Desktops were bulky, expensive and seen as geeky. But these issues were overcome. As the same issues will be dealt with in 3D printing. I predict that in 5 years time all home printers will be either 3D or both 2D and 3D hybrids.

So where is Lightwave fitting into this emerging market? Which software is grabbing the opportunities to complement 3D home printing hardware?

When I look at this store that only offers Rhino 3D then it seems to me that Lightwave is missing out: http://3dprintersuperstore.com.au/blogs/3d-news

Note that I think from a technical standpoint Lightwave is as good as Rhino or anything else for 3D printing. Yet from an "ease of use" point of view Lightwave might struggle for this market with its split screen paradigm. I mean, imagine this scenario in a middle class family with the collective 3D CG ability of a whale.

8 year old boy: "daddy, I want a 3 d printer, I want a 3d printer"

Dad: OK, what's that?"

Boy: "saw one on TV. We used one at school. I can print out my own dinosaurs and monsters and everything. Come on Dad we gotta have one. It's SO cool".

Dad: "OK, I've never seen one".

Mum: "don't ask me, I have never heard of these 3D thingys".

Fast forward to Xmas a few months later:

Dad: "Joey, I want you to open this BIG present".

Boy"okay....IT'S A 3D PRINTER! IT'S A 3D PRINTER! wHOAAAA yEAH!"

DAD: "I also got some software for it. My old uni engineering pals told me to get Rhino whatever that is. I found this "lightwave" software that was about the same price but my pals said "nah, nah, that lightwave uses 2 screens, it's confusing".

*********

I think at the very least if Newtek is going to make any effort to get this sort of market over the next 5 to 10 years then LW should come with a plug in that enables the user to go single combines modeller/layout. It will be sad if LW misses out here. This is a growing opportunity to grab a market and I wonder if it is lost then it will be lost for good [think of schools in the 1980s and 90's that did deals with Apple and had all apple 2 E computers and Microsoft was locked out of that school for decades or vice versa].

Technically I got Lightwave for 3D printing. But I not sure that people like "Dad and Joe" in the abover scenario are going to come to the same decision. If I were a part of Newtek marketing and looking 5 to 10 years ahead strategically, I would eb looking at these things. Just saying.

saranine
12-13-2013, 09:34 PM
Further to this, I wonder if 3D printers in the future will be bundled products of hardware and 3d software.

spherical
12-13-2013, 10:29 PM
pals said "nah, nah, that lightwave uses 2 screens, it's confusing".

I really don't get what the Big Deal is about "2 screens/2 applications". Let's see.... a "unified app" hides certain tools when the "other" mode is being used. Soooooooo.... you can't use both at the same time. What's the supposed crucial difference? Perception? Predisposition? To me, having the ability to have BOTH in view at the same time is a Feature! I put panels of each application on the opposite screen anyway. Sure, not every "Dad and Joe" will have two screens but it's more common than you'd think, what with the prices dropping so radically on LED/LCD monitors. I mean, if you can afford a 3D printer, a second monitor should already be in place. To whit:

118694 118695

Layout Active / Modeler Active

I agree that, as has been offered in other threads lately, NT/LW3DG really need to get on their game and begin turning this tide. The general take on LightWave is way out of date. It's far better than people generally think, if indeed they think about it at all it seems. Can't un-ring a bell but you can ring another one that is sweeter to listen to. Keep it up! Change minds. Drop the "Rebellion" stuff, it's a losing battle and not exactly the best message to project, and focus on expandability and capability for dollar invested.

dwburman
12-13-2013, 11:46 PM
Technically all you need in LW for most 3D printing projects is Modeller, so only one screen. :)

Ofc if you want to pose a character you need to switch to layout, but I don't think the separate apps in LW would be much more confusing than just getting started with any full 3D app. However, the stigma of being outdated is a real problem.

As for people just getting into 3D printing, aren't they mostly starting with SketchUp and Autodesk's 1 2 3D create and 1 2 3D Make?

spherical
12-14-2013, 02:20 AM
Technically all you need in LW for most 3D printing projects is Modeller, so only one screen. :)

Ya know, I've been so spun out about this other stuff that this simple fact went right by me. Of course, when modeling for our printer I never (well rarely) use Layout at all.


As for people just getting into 3D printing, aren't they mostly starting with SketchUp and Autodesk's 1 2 3D create and 1 2 3D Make?

Yes, they probably would. Capable slicers, however, usually turn out garbage from these and other low cost or free CAD applications, as they do not produce good models. May look great but a slicer has to analyze the shape, take it apart, layer by layer and then tell another machine how to put it back together again. If the model isn't manifold, the slicer cannot tell what is the outside and what is the inside, gets confused and spits out a lot of spurious paths that shouldn't be there. Then the user comes complaining that the slicer has a bug because: "I checked the model in Netfabb and it didn't find anything." That's because it takes a mesh analyzer having a pulse to identify and make the correct decision on what action to take. With complex geometry, automation only goes so far, and that's not far enough by a long shot.

LightWave does produce manifold models and also can be used to repair Borked models that these other "modeling applications" turn out. It's a Get What You Pay For thing.

RebelHill
12-14-2013, 07:00 AM
Drop the "Rebellion" stuff, it's a losing battle and not exactly the best message to project, and focus on expandability and capability for dollar invested.

God yes!!!

You want to sell a product to folk producing work for and doing business with end clients... talk to them like business people, not childish nerd boys.

Lewis
12-14-2013, 09:00 AM
I really don't get what the Big Deal is about "2 screens/2 applications". Let's see.... a "unified app" hides certain tools when the "other" mode is being used. Soooooooo.... you can't use both at the same time.
Yes you can, people often forget that you can open 2,3, or more instances of unified app also so you can get LW split style if you wish it so much but more important you CAN rearange buttons/tools and see more commands on screen so nothign gets "hidden" anyway so that point is moot and not really sticking. Also if you think aobut it more it's even better to get "hidden" operations you can't do at some point of modeling process, even LWM does that i.e. you can't use rail clone (it's greyed out) if you don't have spline put in backgroudn layer so then what good is it if button is still at GUI but you can't use it comparign to hidden button i.e. context sensitive :)?

As for 3D printing bussines yeah I agree this rebelion attitude is not helping them (and logo is ugly also, looks like cool LW Logo eated shuriken :)).

cresshead
12-14-2013, 10:41 AM
the post seems to be a long route to say 'unify' lightwave and uses the 3d printer 'story' to make it's point.

yes, lightwave should at some point be 1 app.
the prospect for learning a 3d app is tough enough for a new user without then discovering they are learning 2 apps to obtain 1 goal if they choose lightwave
when evaluating 3d applications.

however...if they research and don't just blindly choose by the biggest name or marketing hype they'll understand that it's not 1 app tha makes the pretty pictures they
see in the cinema, on TV or in the game but several...usually a dedicated specialist modeller such as zbrush, sketchup, rhino and then an app to rig, animate and render...
plus....renderer's are usually 3rd party add on, either under licence with limited render nodes as you rent the app or you need to buy it such as Vray or a GPU renderer...

so....
lightwave givers you more for less.

be happy

ride the wave :)

prometheus
12-14-2013, 10:47 AM
For 3d printing I would say the discussion of unified app or not has little value when talking about 3d printing or specificly the Lightwave-rhino case, when actually thinking of max or maya that has unified workspace will have more cluttered workspaces from default compare to lightwave modeler which has all the model stuff directly accessable, but then again you could just as easy switch workport presets in maya for instance or the same in modo..so in the end that is not what to really beconcern about.

I think it must be more of concern of how easy you can model something, one of the drawbacks of polymodeling is the accuracy, filleting,rounding of areas that blends or are connected in a certain way..where you might run in to difficulties with edges,polys etc..and where a solid modeler donīt have that issue and will blend perfectly or fillet round as you want, and also performing fillets at exact mm scale, where many polymodelers donīt have such accuracy.

Also stenciling or projecting curves on another surface and then extrude or make hollow and then performing fillets on them, a much harder task to do in modeler.
Also..for many constructions they often work in cad tools with that level of exact dimension accuracy and parametric modeling since changes must be able to be carried out if the product doesnīt match or need improvement, so a parametric workflow is sort of a must, for a hobby 3d print artist doing figurines or simple toys, tools..that isnīt a big deal, but proffesionally I donīt think itīs a good idea resorting to a polymodeler for real prototypes...of the higher level type.

Yeah rhino is in the front lead it seems, I checked up on creativetools new shop opened here in stockholm, showcasing some prints they had done and put up on thingyverse, they mostly used rhino for creating their stuff.
I think Lightwave/lightwave group and the community only started to be aware of the 3d printing market recently showing up, so it might take some more Lw versions for it to be even better when working at that area.
we have only just recently seen the print plugins implemented as native, and some clip tutorials showcasing Lightwave and printing, next step would be to put up even more practical modeling sessions showcasing why Lighwave can perform 3d creations easy, but it wil fall flat when focused on accuracy and some advanced operations in modeling, or showcasing a product that needs modification on fillets,rounding, or holes and dimensions.

I have a three way solution to suggest that in the future will enhance the strengths towards that market, but also in other areas.

1.parametric modeling.
2.nurbs/solids
4.CAD support, mainly sldasm,sldprt.

Ultimate dream would be for Lw cad to enhance itīs cad import tools to include sldasm,prt...and then carry on with what was experimental nurbs showcased before...
next convey the lightwave group to get running with the parametric modeling we almost could see coming before.:)


Michael

pauland
12-14-2013, 10:56 AM
I think it could have been a smart move to build a pipeline between modeller and a 3D printer. It would be an open door for people who wanted to go further. Selling a bundle would be smart and it might even justify itself purely from the publicity it might generate.

It wouldn't be about existing 3D professionals, but about hooking new blood and perhaps some design agencies who might otherwise be outsourcing stuff.

Worth a go.

prometheus
12-14-2013, 01:23 PM
could have been? It can be a smart move, but itīs foremost about making modeling tools as good as possible and include tools that will be helpful for 3d printing.
we now got stl,ply tools for export and import with mesh correction...further on
volume calculation tools, fast adjustable dimension tools and evaluation tools, parametric modeling etc.

what I mentioned about solids might be undoable given the Lw code as of today, might be that it would require a completly new modeling module for solids in that case, and going that route might not be fruitful if thereīs already so many advanced other tools already available for it, Not sure what to say about that really when I dont have the understanding of the techīs behind it..so I might as well keep
my moth closed about it...just saying that if they could get solids, either in modeler or a seperate module and sell it together with lightwave, that I think would be attractive.

Now I have this plate holder with holes, after printing it and testing it against other parts, realizing it needs changes, then going back and change fillet radius, size of holes,fillet radius of holes and even placements would be awkward to do in Lightwave today, thus I think the need of parametric modeling is the most needed and perhaps easier to implement than solid tools for a starter.

Michael

prometheus
12-14-2013, 01:39 PM
Just some additional thoughts on workflow on a mesh to efficent select and perform operations, to bad we still havenīt got any Item select mode (unconnected mesh geometry) Youīd have to first select a poly on that geometry, then ctrl-shift right click and select connected, or use the shortcut for it, Itīs annoying as a workflow when checking mesh distributed parts in the layer that is supposed to be printed, firstly we could need a single click option (middle mouse perhaps) for the select connected item or something like that..but even more efficient would be like modo has implemented Item selection mode, so when you are aware of that you need to rearange or check unconnected mesh parts, it will be so much easier working in that mode so you just have to click on respective geometry parts to evaluate or re-arrange.

That can be translated to keep Item parts within the statistics panel and also when working with booleans, why on earth the need to swap, copy and paste between multilayers for boolean operations, rather than start the boolean operation, then pick the A-boolean meshpart, then the-B Boolean meshpart in that order, without the need to work in layers.

Michael

prometheus
12-14-2013, 01:45 PM
lofting along spline shapes and curves in nurbs form could be enhancing the options to create advanced forms and if parametric making it highly changable if so required
so you can change individual cross sections in the loft or the spline rail determing the path at anytime.

Michael

spherical
12-14-2013, 10:13 PM
For 3d printing I would say the discussion of unified app or not has little value when talking about 3d printing or specificly the Lightwave-rhino case, when actually thinking of max or maya that has unified workspace will have more cluttered workspaces from default compare to lightwave modeler which has all the model stuff directly accessable, but then again you could just as easy switch workport presets in maya for instance or the same in modo..so in the end that is not what to really beconcern about.

Agreed.


I think it must be more of concern of how easy you can model something, one of the drawbacks of polymodeling is the accuracy,

Not in my experience. Perhaps I do things differently than most. Wouldn't be the first time...


In cad tools with that level of exact dimension accuracy and parametric modeling since changes must be able to be carried out if the product doesnīt match or need improvement, so a parametric workflow is sort of a must, for a hobby 3d print artist doing figurines or simple toys, tools..that isnīt a big deal, but proffesionally I donīt think itīs a good idea resorting to a polymodeler for real prototypes...of the higher level type.

Then check this out. This is taking LightWave to the next level:
118710 118711
The Blown Glass and Carbon Fiber Solar System Chandelier (http://glasssculpture.org/architectural/lighting/solar-system-chandelier/)

Entirely conceived, designed, rendered and then manufactured from faithful physical 3D printed molds in which to form the carbon fiber; all in LightWave. THIS is what those other threads are about.

prometheus
12-15-2013, 12:02 AM
Agreed.



Not in my experience. Perhaps I do things differently than most. Wouldn't be the first time...



Then check this out. This is taking LightWave to the next level:
118710 118711
The Blown Glass and Carbon Fiber Solar System Chandelier (http://glasssculpture.org/architectural/lighting/solar-system-chandelier/)

Entirely conceived, designed, rendered and then manufactured from faithful physical 3D printed molds in which to form the carbon fiber; all in LightWave. THIS is what those other threads are about.

Lovely solar system chandelier design, but poor examples of a technic design and product parts that also could work with other parts, seems like more solid single designs..and also no need to evaluate for how it might work dynamicly in a design needed to work with dynamics for example, and no need to go back and change small details, which I mentioned would be a pain to do without parametric modeling.
I reckon there would be a need of a list of products that by themself could define difficulties upon creation etc.

You would really need Lw cad in order to do precise fillets,rounds and blend rounds, and that will still not be enough depending on how the fillets etc will flow along a polysurface, since Lw cad will not disregard poly faces limiting operations.

surface stenciling isnīt ideal either, and even with Lw cad, once you have made your rounds or fillets, you canīt go back and redo and change it, if you desire so or the engineers tells you so, you have to save iterations of the model to be anyware near of stepping back without having to reconstruct everything from the beginning.

what you have on display on your page is quite enough and ideal for lightwave to do in 3d and print, but as I mentioned, not all products looks like that:)
I wouldnīt try to model a figurine or other organic form in solidworks or even in rhino for that matter, Iīd go with lightwave or zbrush, except for some organic stuff with T-splines maybe, but I wouldnīt go for certain mechanic styled product designs in Lightwave either, that would go to solidworks or rhino, but there are levels that can be reached within all those selected choices, it all depends on level of design.

you said this is taking lightwave to the next level, Im sorry I donīt think so... isnīt Lightwave supposed to take 3d printing to the next level? :)



Michael

Rayek
12-15-2013, 01:27 AM
I find it kinda funny that the OP questions Blender's future in the 3d market in another post, while Blender specifically includes tools for 3d printing, and plugin developers made custom functionality to deal with 3d c&c and printing in Blender.

And then proceeds to question Lightwave's 3d printing functionality and its future in this post.

I do not quite follow his line of reasoning - in his view both Lightwave and Blender are doomed in the future then?

spherical
12-15-2013, 01:41 AM
you said this is taking lightwave to the next level, Im sorry I donīt think so... isnīt Lightwave supposed to take 3d printing to the next level?

Geez, it seems that there's just no pleasing some people... Insults notwithstanding about my capabilities, I'm SO tired of this. This is wrong, that is wrong, something else is wrong, you're doing it all wrong! Poor this, poor that. From what I see, some people have nothing better to do than post unending responses in here, tearing down what someone else has built or thinks or feels.

prometheus
12-15-2013, 01:49 AM
Geez, it seems that there's just no pleasing some people... Insults notwithstanding about my capabilities, I'm SO tired of this. This is wrong, that is wrong, something else is wrong, you're doing it all wrong! Poor this, poor that. From what I see, some people have nothing better to do than post unending responses in here, tearing down what someone else has built or thinks or feels.

What on earth are you talking about? and did you miss the smiley emotion after the statement..that could give you a hint of some humbleness?
no insults ever been intended or tearing down of what you think or feel, unfortunatly this is what happens when messing without an eye to eye talk.or mouth to ear talk.
The intention isnīt to tear down for tearing down sake, but an argument does mean disagree and following statements on why, so I canīt just sit here and say yes that is true when I donīt think itīs true can I?

So Please be careful to project what you say about some people have had nothing better to do...on to what I have described.
If the statement was a little of word wrestling...Im sorry about that, obviously you got offended, you shouldnīt really care about that..since it is of no big importance by itself.

Maybe you could appreciate me giving you thumbs up for your designs instead as I mentioned before, if ever so little.
And of course, meet my comments with a more objective discussion than subjective feelings ..that would make me happier too.)
We are talking about Lightwave capabilities, not your capabilities.

Michael