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spigolo
12-13-2013, 03:19 AM
From an italian computer graphic website
http://www.imaginaction.com/2013/12/scoop-v-ray-in-sviluppo-per-modo/

Hope Lightwave is the next one..

3DGFXStudios
12-13-2013, 04:14 AM
Forget Vray ;) , we are getting Arnold :D

prometheus
12-13-2013, 04:25 AM
Forget Vray ;) , we are getting Arnold :D

More companies over here looking for employes able to work with Vray, thus a Vray option within Lightwave migth strengthen Lightwave users chance to gain acess to such jobs
as opposed to Arnold....at this time anyway, the future is near though, milliseconds away:) Vray is pretty much accepted as de facto standard and thus thatīs what (most) companies are requesting as a skill.

Michael

ianr
12-13-2013, 05:09 AM
Well said,3DGFXStudio Boy,
I think the Forum should be VERY aware that 'GRAVITY'
was all final render in ARNOLD & a beautiful result i am
sure all you have seen it will agree, probably the Oscar
Panel voters will too!
See 3D World mag & 3d Artist mag tech Reviews now,
plus big up's 2 Congrats to Framestore-Soho U.K.

But personally, i await the Cinefex review for that One !

ARNOLD will rule over Renderman soon- if not now.

prometheus
12-13-2013, 05:22 AM
amount of studios, companies with the need to work with Arnold for such great renders are limited here anyway, the fact that it gives the most beautiful results compared to even vray or renderman..that weighs low in terms of comparing to available needs for it, and what many companies invested in for the time being,Im sure it might be the future to go...but there are steps to go in old shoes in between since that is required for the most parts.

If you put yourself in a seat with max,cinema4d or modo with a Vray renderpipline, you are in good eyes for many many viz companies, if you sit with Arnold..for the time being, that is not what many of them look for in the ads of your skills, all dependendt on what you self are aiming for to jump in to as 3d artist, but the amount of jobs in illustrations and viz I would say is larger than working for studios putting up the big screen shows such as gravity.

Just my thoughts on it, based on what I can see on ad requirements over here, not aware of how much others would like to jump in to arnold and discard already
set standards.(which might change when Arnold gains reputation of course)
Ive seen a few more ads nowaydays popping up requesting keyshot as well.

And nothing rules out the possibilities of getting both Vray and arnold, technicly speaking I think.

Michael

OnlineRender
12-13-2013, 05:25 AM
kray , arnold and octane ... and f9

geo_n
12-13-2013, 05:35 AM
Vray for nuke coming, too. Chaosgroup is making the big bucks.

probiner
12-13-2013, 06:39 AM
Forget Vray ;) , we are getting Arnold :D

Vray = Visualization
Arnold = Animation

Anyways I wonder other than working with a standard what Kray and Vray differ fundamentally for a LW user.

Cheers

geo_n
12-13-2013, 07:16 AM
Check out the demo reels for vray.
http://www.chaosgroup.com/en/2/showreels2013.html



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAk9JgQMrJw

erikals
12-13-2013, 07:45 AM
kray , arnold and octane ... and f9 (+vpr)

we are lucky...! http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/smile.gif

50one
12-13-2013, 08:15 AM
we are lucky...! http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/smile.gif

Oh yes, so we are! unfortunatelly from that list only two are available(Kray 3.0 been "just around the corner" for the past two years?), before Arnold will be available to freelancers ans small studios, Vray will be available to all apps out there, just my 2p.

erikals
12-13-2013, 08:28 AM
bah, c'mon, be a beliver... u can do it...!

http://erikalstad.com/backup/misc.php_files/lwicon.png

geo_n
12-13-2013, 08:29 AM
Arnold is available for freelancers if they can swallow the pricetag of an initial investment of five licenses.
I'm looking forward to kray 3.0 with its own vpr system shown on the recent video.
But vray for lw wouldn't hurt either :D


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBAYS1Ftmnc

50one
12-13-2013, 09:08 AM
Arnold is available for freelancers if they can swallow the pricetag of an initial investment of five licenses.
I'm looking forward to kray 3.0 with its own vpr system shown on the recent video.
But vray for lw wouldn't hurt either :D


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBAYS1Ftmnc

I bet that those are the same freelancers who complain that 200$ app is to pricey:) yes, forking out 5k for five license seems to be wise thing to do for a renderer that has maybe one official training video and work in progress online manual, other that the knowledge that it's the bees knees.

Vray otoh is well established, tons of learning materials, huuuge userbase(legit version or not lol) and it cost 1/5 of Arnold. So, sadly when you're talking about freelancers, then, no, it's out of reach for them atm, but as far as I'm concern they're working on this issue, but again no specific dates, eta's or anything.

alexos
12-13-2013, 09:39 AM
kray , arnold and octane ... and f9

Kray is nowhere to be seen, Arnold is in development and will cost big bucks; as it is we (meaning "we who don't have the budget for hyper-engines") only have Octane, which is awesome, and F9 to choose from. Oh and Maxwell, with its well-known limits. On the other hand, Vray is everything 50One said and more, and I would buy it in a heartbeat; but apart from that the question is, can Lightwave afford to be the only "mainstream" app that doesn't support (or isn't supported by) Vray?

...Yeah, that's a rhetorical one, imho.

ADP.

Pavlov
12-13-2013, 01:17 PM
hi all,
one thing which should really be cleared is this: gettign Vray is more a *STRATEGIC* thing, more than getting features.
Quality doesnt matter here, even hough Vray is clearly superior to Lw engine. It's about assets, tutorials, learning (in vray everyone is made able to render excellent pro pctures in weeks, in Lw you require a loong time of trials to get the grasp of correct shading and lighting), and even more, the key is the fact Vray gives you a standard to dialogue with the rest of the world and find people to put at work.
As i already stated, my firm is forced to move some steps in max arena because good LW users are one each 200 km, while good Vray users are around the corner. everywhere. When i need new people, new guys are NOT productive for months and i must spend tons of hour to give them LW principles. Before they're really good, months passes, and i lose time and money. This is a *huge* keypoint, and as i stated above, it has nothing to do with engine quality. Even if LW engine became superior to Vray, we would be in dead need of Vray anyway. It's about being into the flow, or on an island.
Then i can also mention the fact most assets producers (evermotion, designconnected.com, 3dsky.org, xfrog, laubwerk, and a ton of other asset sellers) give you assets pretty ready to render in Vray, OR a poor OBJ you need to tweak out and set up. We have many thousand assets, make a count of what it means downloading it and render, or downloading it and tweak for half an hour before it's somehow acceptable.
For these and other reasons, my suggestion is, and will always be, NT pays Chaos to develop a Vray port for LW. Or LW community does. We are many, maybe we could throw some $ each and probably it would not be such a dramatic expense.
Add to this the fact now we are REALLY the only platform without Vray, and this will become a very heavy discrimination factor. 3D arena, and specifically its biggest sector, which is Viz arena, is now divided in two parts: Vray world and LW. Guess who loses.

Paolo

tyrot
12-13-2013, 01:40 PM
oh we have OCTANE .. which is AWESOME - we MAY have an Arnold renderer too .... So I think we are Really in good shape thanks to LW SAINT JUAN!

So VRAY can suck my 2pointPolies! (just like digital tutors which denies LW's existance)

Pavlov
12-13-2013, 06:06 PM
Tyrot, i think you've better to read again my post.. :)

Paolo

tyrot
12-13-2013, 07:15 PM
actually i REALLY have amazing satisfied feeling that VRAY is not supporting LW.

You know why - those MAX users (talents?) are trying to render with the models they hunted from those sites and knowing NOTHING about modeling - poly reduction - or other things. VRAY and those model firms makes them LAZY and we beat them in every case.

Because they just look at the screen with evermotion models - instead of modeling them ... Instead of learning the NEW renderers such as Octane - they just USE presets - and you know what they just WAIT and WAIT.

And we - on the other hand - HAVE to learn to model, learn to UV, learn to LIVE in 3D world - so when they try to import an evermotion model we actually MODEL it.

I am SO damn happy that VRAY is not supporting LW and we are not becoming main stream.

I am SO happy that a LW user came out - JUAN- and simply opened a new doors for Octane - and Arnold renderer and SAVED our archviz business.

So this blasphemy - ignoring LW's existance - made us to found new ways of working. I am so happy that i m part of group of "users" - who really USE the software instead of IMPORTing - million polygon meshes, loading presets and waiting and living in the pre-GPU times.

Good luck with them.

And one last thing, while IMPORTERS are waiting for importing - rendering in MAX , we actually steal their clients with new renderers. THANKS JUAN! for being a LWer!.

--No this is the last thing... VRAY can suck my 2pointPolies and all my nonplanar polygons as well!.

geo_n
12-13-2013, 09:39 PM
but apart from that the question is, can Lightwave afford to be the only "mainstream" app that doesn't support (or isn't supported by) Vray?


It is called join the rebellion :D


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYPFY5OUzdk

desegno
12-14-2013, 12:50 AM
my suggestion is, and will always be, NT pays Chaos to develop a Vray port for LW. Or LW community does.Paolo
we can help this change.
join the rebellion

OFF
12-14-2013, 12:58 AM
From an italian computer graphic website
http://www.imaginaction.com/2013/12/scoop-v-ray-in-sviluppo-per-modo/

Hope Lightwave is the next one..
Pricing:

The official suggested end user price of a single new license of V-Ray 2.0 for 3ds Max is 970 Euro/ 1350 USD/ 840 GBP

Arnold prices start from €1000 + €225 (1680 USD - If you manage to get only one license) annual maintenance & support per license per machine and we offer great discounts on volume above 10,50 and 100 licenses. Our minimum sale is 5 seats but we occasionally waive that rule.
But, if you look to the side products such as Tea Render - the cost of the package and plugin for him just $ 450. The only bad thing - there is still no connector to LW. Well, of course - it is an external rendering and a built always looks better.



... I am SO damn happy that VRAY is not supporting LW and we are not becoming main stream.
Me too!

AbnRanger
12-14-2013, 01:03 AM
I don't think it matters a whole lot. Why? Cause Vray costs as much as Modo does, and they recently switched to a pricing model that costs extra per render node. It's contrary to the "Value" that LW and Modo offers/promotes. Might be a good option for a studio. Having a Vray license for Max, I can share that it's preview rendering mode (RT) is nice and rock solid, but it has a lot of limitations (doesn't yet support SSS, procedural texture maps, volumetrics, etc.). Lightwave's VPR has it licked in that category. However, it looks like VRay 3 (currently in public Beta) has a progressive rendering mode (of the Production renderer), that looks like it will not be hampered by quite so many limitations.

geo_n
12-14-2013, 01:30 AM
You can't really compare modo to vray. Modo is a very small market compared to vray. It was one of the reason for the merge and Brad also mentioned why the forums, name, branding was moved over towards the Foundry because they have more users in general. So chaos can demand more money but compared to Arnold its just way out of reach for freelancers given their requirements.

Pavlov
12-14-2013, 07:33 AM
Tyrot - but also some others - plase, did you really read what i write or do you prefer to go along your route and do not understand the difference between render quality and market issues ?
Speaking of modeling assets is totally nonsense in a serious production. In a serious market, with big clients and good works, the thing is all about providing clients with high level imagery in less time possible. It's much more important to concentrate on everything else, than demonstrate my client i'm good at modeling. Believe me, i AM. but if i thought like you, Engram would not exhist and i would probably do something else for living.
You can make assumptions like your when you talk about hobby and weekend work, or your portfolio, but believe me, modeling already exhisting assets is out of any serious company horizont. Even more, it's totally nonsense. You buy them. Then, if you cant find a good model anywhere, you have to be able to model it in a short time, yes. But ONLY then.
The lack of ready to use assets for LW, which is strongly tied to the lack of Vray and to the island-ness of LW, together with the lack of the tons of tutorials, forum, learning tools Vray offers, are the reason most LW users have big issues in getting into high level markets. If i managed to place Engram into some better market, it's only because i dont think like most here seem to do. I can agree Max is a theft, but Vray cost is a joke for an office which does this for a living.
Nothing personal, but when i read "hobbyland" comments i cant stop myself repeating this: hobbyland thinking is a big part of what is keeping LW in the dust.

Paolo

chikega
12-14-2013, 07:57 AM
Mercenaries Engineering is giving one free license of their Guerilla Render per IP address. It was used in movies like "Snow White", "Total Recall" and "Dredd". So, if cost is a concern and they are wanting to get the word out to the general public, perhaps, there could be a LW port. You never know ... :)

http://guerillarender.com/

118702


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Srjs6rnXt_s

Ryan Roye
12-14-2013, 08:02 AM
Lightwave's only shortcoming is its marketing, which it does very poorly. There are so many great things about this software that have been almost ignored as benefits or highlights. Nevermind that LW has always had animation capabilities that rival Motion Builder/Maya for a fraction of the cost (in terms of motion, not deformations), or that the renderer comes included or that Vray in some cases is way overkill for smaller businesses that may only have 5-10 employees and would rather hire extra employees rather than buy software which might not be the right fit for them. You don't cut cake with a chainsaw.

People get Lightwave for its features vs cost... the LW3DG desperately needs to capitalize on this and stop letting the highlights of the software go unnoticed as usual.

tyrot
12-14-2013, 08:29 AM
pavlov if you accuse us for being - Hobbyland user - you are very mistaken...

All i say - lack of VRAY support somehow created different results in our business and i m very happy. I wouldnt say any of these comments if i was just using LW's renderer. But with Octane with Arnold - future is VERY bright.

Pavlov
12-14-2013, 08:35 AM
again. I'm happy with Lw engine too (90% stuff on our site is LW), but again, i dont speak of quality here. But let's move on.

Paolo

50one
12-14-2013, 08:51 AM
Tyrot - but also some others - plase, did you really read what i write or do you prefer to go along your route and do not understand the difference between render quality and market issues ?
Speaking of modeling assets is totally nonsense in a serious production. In a serious market, with big clients and good works, the thing is all about providing clients with high level imagery in less time possible. It's much more important to concentrate on everything else, than demonstrate my client i'm good at modeling. Believe me, i AM. but if i thought like you, Engram would not exhist and i would probably do something else for living.
You can make assumptions like your when you talk about hobby and weekend work, or your portfolio, but believe me, modeling already exhisting assets is out of any serious company horizont. Even more, it's totally nonsense. You buy them. Then, if you cant find a good model anywhere, you have to be able to model it in a short time, yes. But ONLY then.
The lack of ready to use assets for LW, which is strongly tied to the lack of Vray and to the island-ness of LW, together with the lack of the tons of tutorials, forum, learning tools Vray offers, are the reason most LW users have big issues in getting into high level markets. If i managed to place Engram into some better market, it's only because i dont think like most here seem to do. I can agree Max is a theft, but Vray cost is a joke for an office which does this for a living.
Nothing personal, but when i read "hobbyland" comments i cant stop myself repeating this: hobbyland thinking is a big part of what is keeping LW in the dust.

Paolo

I thik tyrot was either sarcastic or stoned;D

Anyyyway, kinda sad that whenever there is a vray thread it's always ending with people shouting 'we don't need it!' Well, if you don't need it then what's point of discussing it and convincing other they don't need it too? Some folks, eh?

alexos
12-14-2013, 09:06 AM
You know why - those MAX users (talents?) are trying to render with the models they hunted from those sites and knowing NOTHING about modeling - poly reduction - or other things. VRAY and those model firms makes them LAZY and we beat them in every case.

Max users, Maya, Rhino, C4D, Sketchup, XSI, and soon Modo users... Do you really believe they're all such bad, lazy modelers?


So this blasphemy - ignoring LW's existance - made us to found new ways of working. I am so happy that i m part of group of "users" - who really USE the software instead of IMPORTing - million polygon meshes, loading presets and waiting and living in the pre-GPU times.

Octane has plug-ins for nearly every single app out there, mate. Those devilish Max fellows can enjoy GPU rendering as much as we do.


And one last thing, while IMPORTERS are waiting for importing - rendering in MAX , we actually steal their clients with new renderers.

Uh... No. Just no. Look, I'm handling a rather biggish interior design job right now; we had to produce 16 high-res views of some luxury villas, complete with big-brand design furniture and all that rot. Our Vray (plus C4D, not Max, so not entirely evil) chap spit out eight of those in, wait for it, THREE DAYS, and they looked absolutely gorgeous. Meanwhile I, the LW, Octane-touting "rebel", had finished exactly two, with a quality that's, well, comparable, but still not quite the same. Which isn't bad at all, but it gave me an entirely new perspective on the whole "we steal their clients cuz we're faster than them" gig - and imagine what it would have taken if I'd had to model from scratch five different types of couch, countless design chairs and lamps, tables (well OK, tables are easy!) and beds and whatnot.

I do understand the pride of being "different", but, you know, it's a fine line between that and pointless tribalism. Vray has relegated all the other "mainstream" engines (from Brazil to Mental Ray) to nearly niche stuff for a simple reason: it is damn good. So, and without even considering the glaringly obvious marketshare reasons, why shouldn't we want it?

Anyway. This whole discussion is probably useless, given the (hopefully) upcoming and utterly mysterious LW12...

ADP.

jwiede
12-14-2013, 09:33 AM
oh we have OCTANE .. which is AWESOME - we MAY have an Arnold renderer too .... So I think we are Really in good shape thanks to LW SAINT JUAN!

Octane's nice, no question (have a license myself for both it and Juan's integration), but its development has a ways to go before it offers all the feature of Vray. Someday Arnold might be a player in archviz, but for now that doesn't even seem a market SolidAngle is targeting yet, so for viz it's a non-starter. Like it or not, a lot of viz shops use Vray competency as a "entry skill test", so having Vray for LW can open doors otherwise closed to LW and its users.

LW3DG is a business, and Lightwave's future depends on sales revenue, which in turn depends on LW growing its marketshare.

jwiede
12-14-2013, 09:37 AM
Uh... No. Just no. Look, I'm handling a rather biggish interior design job right now; we had to produce 16 high-res views of some luxury villas, complete with big-brand design furniture and all that rot. Our Vray (plus C4D, not Max, so not entirely evil) chap spit out eight of those in, wait for it, THREE DAYS, and they looked absolutely gorgeous. Meanwhile I, the LW, Octane-touting "rebel", had finished exactly two, with a quality that's, well, comparable, but still not quite the same. Which isn't bad at all, but it gave me an entirely new perspective on the whole "we steal their clients cuz we're faster than them" gig - and imagine what it would have taken if I'd had to model from scratch five different types of couch, countless design chairs and lamps, tables (well OK, tables are easy!) and beds and whatnot.

I do understand the pride of being "different", but, you know, it's a fine line between that and pointless tribalism.

I saw tyrot's post in question more as out-of-control hubris, but otherwise QFA!


Anyway. This whole discussion is probably useless, given the (hopefully) upcoming and utterly mysterious LW12...

I deeply hope LW12 brings strong evidence of progress solving LW's "infrastructure issues".

tyrot
12-14-2013, 09:40 AM
It is not useless since we are talking about. It is not my fault VRAY feels no LW. They act like LW does not exist! So should i sit and whine and feel bad about my main application.
No.
Octane - arnold - is here ... and everything is very fine.

I bet my money on LW - plus Octane + Arnold... THat is it .(Soon rendering will be like photoshopping anyway)

fishhead
12-14-2013, 10:35 AM
Sure it really would be great to have the chance to get VRay in our arsenal of renderengines for LW.
As it surely has a number of advantages over LWīs renderengine in certain areas (all the most its use of MultiMatteElements). But it is not necessarily faster just so. I work along Max/Vray users since Version 1 of Vray (That must have been Max5) until today. And it is absolutely not the holy grail. It all really depends so much on the person who is feeding the renderer - just as pretty much in every possible else area.
And also I have seen more than enough cases when VRay just seemed to be crawling while we had LW render a lot faster with more than comparable results. My experience there is that actually LW+īs renderer is more efficient in handling a lot of cores (the difference seems more obvious the more cores there are - we have different Render Nodes varying from 4 to 24 cores).
I do not really know much about VRay implementations for other packages than Max - but from what I hear the featureset is very different from implemenatation to implementation. And the way it is integrated with Max, where its featureset undoubtedtly is the richest, is far from perfect. It uses quite a lot of ways to workaround Maxīs shortcomings - but that is a problem that mainly has to do with Maxīs SDK. Maybe it varies when it comes to C4D or Maya.
Anyway, do not expect it to be THE solution for everything - I for one am glad that we still have the choice of LWīs renderer along with VRay. I really do think that VRay is NOT superior in every way. Sure, It is quite robust, always has been and you get a lot of people who know their way around and it is very flexible when it comes to spit out results for compositing in one go. But the absolute main point that would make it a real great addition to LightWave would IMHO be that it would send out a signal to the world.
just my 2 cent...

Pavlov
12-14-2013, 10:53 AM
I really do think that VRay is NOT superior in every way. Sure, It is quite robust, always has been and you get a lot of people who know their way around and it is very flexible when it comes to spit out results for compositing in one go. But the absolute main point that would make it a real great addition to LightWave would IMHO be that it would send out a signal to the world.
just my 2 cent...

that's the thing.
Paolo

prometheus
12-14-2013, 10:59 AM
that's the thing.
Paolo

I would chime in to that too, It could even work as a stealer..people from other software background finding it easier to polymodel in Lightwave maybe, or taking the price of lightwave in account, but they still like or need the Vray look and are already familiar with it, so a signal to the world that Vray for lightwave is there will probably have a certain market value for lightwave itself.

Michael

geo_n
12-14-2013, 10:59 AM
Its a lost cause. Would definitely want it but the numbers just aren't enough. Chaosgroup would never have looked at modo if it weren't for the Foundry.
This would surely increase modo users numbers pass lw users since there are those that are looking for access to vray and modo is a cheaper platform.....for now :D

prometheus
12-14-2013, 11:01 AM
Its a lost cause. Would definitely want it but the numbers just aren't enough. Chaosgroup would never have looked at modo if it weren't for the Foundry.
This would surely increase modo users numbers pass lw users since there are those that are looking for access to vray and modo is a cheaper platform.....for now :D

numbers are dynamic over time and thus you canīt just kill it based on current numbers that arenīt connected to dynamic events taking place further on...such as investments.

geo_n
12-14-2013, 11:38 AM
numbers are dynamic over time and thus you canīt just kill it based on current numbers that arenīt connected to dynamic events taking place further on...such as investments.

True. Who would have thought softimage would be where it is today. Or the Foundry absorbing Lux.
So who's going to invest to get a plugin like the c4d or sketchup connection?

jasonwestmas
12-14-2013, 12:19 PM
Oh yes, so we are! unfortunatelly from that list only two are available(Kray 3.0 been "just around the corner" for the past two years?), before Arnold will be available to freelancers ans small studios, Vray will be available to all apps out there, just my 2p.

Chaos group tools and accessories are available to everyone at any time and they communicate often.

50one
12-14-2013, 01:27 PM
Chaos group tools and accessories are available to everyone at any time and they communicate often.

As, been using vray for the past three years and vlado is quite proactive in the forums.
Anyway, I think that we all forgot about maxwell render!

erikals
12-14-2013, 08:34 PM
Vray, if you seriously feel that you need it, join the great Kray 3 beta instead.
you'll probably have to post a couple of great test renders to join the beta, but once done, i don't see any reason to jump on the 5-times more expensive Vray...

unless you got too much cash on your hands... $...!
and even then, it might very well not be worth it...

prometheus
12-14-2013, 09:25 PM
I think there are two Major distinct factors to consider.

1. job, work, requested skill ads with skills of the Render of choice.
2. quality,realism

Nr2. might be secondary to nr 1, simply because if you go for native Lw renders, Kray, maxwell or other...and thereīs no job ads covering that it doesnīt matter if you
can do it cheaper or faster at the same quality, unless convincing client or the company to work differently you will have a hard time..though maxwell will probably be a safer bet than others...but it really doesnīt matter if kray is cheap is as realistic and fast...if you look for job ads that arenīt there.
Of course it is a completly different story if you travel on your own path and if you can make your own decisions on graphics to clients.

3 and 4..I would list pricing and ease of use..but that I wouldnīt include as such important factors as 1 and 2.


Michael

spherical
12-14-2013, 11:05 PM
Lightwave's only shortcoming is its marketing, which it does very poorly. There are so many great things about this software that have been almost ignored as benefits or highlights. Nevermind that LW has always had animation capabilities that rival Motion Builder/Maya for a fraction of the cost (in terms of motion, not deformations), or that the renderer comes included or that Vray in some cases is way overkill for smaller businesses that may only have 5-10 employees and would rather hire extra employees rather than buy software which might not be the right fit for them. You don't cut cake with a chainsaw.

People get Lightwave for its features vs cost... the LW3DG desperately needs to capitalize on this and stop letting the highlights of the software go unnoticed as usual.

.... That would be what my other thread is about.... [head desk]

geo_n
12-14-2013, 11:32 PM
Vray, if you seriously feel that you need it, join the great Kray 3 beta instead.
you'll probably have to post a couple of great test renders to join the beta, but once done, i don't see any reason to jump on the 5-times more expensive Vray...

unless you got too much cash on your hands... $...!
and even then, it might very well not be worth it...

There is no kray 3.0 beta yet. Its still in closed alpha. Been bugging them for open beta before the holidays.
The reason that one would jump to vray has already been mentioned by Pavlov and prometheus. Industry standard and project, job availability.
More and more companies are putting "working experience with vray" as a prereq nowadays in the pro market. Its the 3dmax, maya of renderers.

Pavlov
12-15-2013, 02:20 AM
Not only. Maybe i havent stressed enough the issue LW companies have in finding people and training them.
LW people are rare, and rarely they're good enough. This is because of the poor training material, poor assets, poor experiences they could have around the world. Vray is the English of languages, LW today is more like Swahili.
In all situations i had to grow my office, i had to pick a Max user and train him. Time and money for me, and 5-6 months of low-productivity. In few words, when one goes or comes, it's a disaster and i must face the truth: if i was a MAx office, i could have a much better exchange and probably find better artists locally.
So, Vray would allow me, and all other running a LW firm, to find good professionals in a snap. Learning modeler is not the big part.
With no Vray, office like mine will all switch to Max / Cinema sooner or later.
Vray is also about keeping most pro LW users.

Paolo

djwaterman
12-15-2013, 02:49 AM
It's a number one priority item to have a Vray plugin for LW, this has been suggested many times, but there have been no hints or clues that it might happen. I find it hard to imagine the topic never comes up within the inner circle of the LW3DG, but they must have made the decision not to go there. To me it would be more about marketing, LW being Vray friendly, I think people would still fall back on the native renderer a lot of times, but the idea is that it would bring in new users, and keeping those professional studios that are still using LW.

Pavlov
12-15-2013, 04:15 AM
but they must have made the decision not to go there.

i hope it's not the case, maybe there is something in the work. Otherwise, this would have been a plain wrong decision, no matter of the reasons.

Paolo

tyrot
12-15-2013, 04:32 AM
paolo on that i agree with you . I always think VRAY ignores LW - if this is not true - somehow LW is not doing something for VRAY that is a mistake...

Other day - when LW architectural works have been asked by the NT - i wrote - do you accept Octane work as well. They said "no - it must be plain LW"

Then my friend that is a total mistake - LW renderer is NOWHERE near VRAY - KRAY or OCTANE ... so they are just really heading to the rocks with their own current renderer...

a fatal marketing decision.. Juan saved LW for us ..

Pavlov
12-15-2013, 08:16 AM
I insist it's not so much about quality. LW engine is quite good if you understand how to overcome it's limitations. Most images in my website are pure LW, some Vray, some Maxwell. Try to guess which pic is maxwell or Vray, you might have surprises. Generally, LW engine is still superior to Modo's engine for architecture.
Problem is most users dont know how to overcome these glitches and limitations, advanced viz tutorials are really few and in some cases you've to find your own way to get that result. We spent a LOT of time in cross-comparison experiments between maxwell, Vray, Kray and LW and finally we found some setups which really bring LW very close to them. We are doing some interior and catalog renderings with plain LW and we got some clients which before used to buy their images from Vray/Maxwell firms. I must say that, if we didnt make all these experiments, we really couldnt afford to make these productions in LW.
But unless you have the time, the resources and the know-how to do this, yes, Vray is quite superior.
Surely i agree NT has to improve engine and allow average user to get better results. Also NT should implement the too many thing swe miss - displacement, buckets, hybrid and better GI, better shading, and a ton of other things.


Paolo

jasonwestmas
12-15-2013, 08:39 AM
Then my friend that is a total mistake - LW renderer is NOWHERE near VRAY - KRAY or OCTANE ... so they are just really heading to the rocks with their own current renderer...

a fatal marketing decision.. Juan saved LW for us ..

The success of lightwave is based centrally on rendering options? I really don't think so. No fancy plugin, Wiki or tutorial fan base will save lightwave from a slow death in this day and age. The success of other application platforms grows from a flexible infrastructure that the programming fore-fathers put in there early in development or re-development. In order to have good ideas for what the infrastructure is to become, one needs to consider installing the methods for higher quality/ team based workflows and still maintain low level job priorities and ease of use. When I see this coming out of LW3DG then I will know that Lightwave is on a good path for salvation.

IME, CG driven companies (no matter how small) search for higher levels of flexibility more these days ; Also streamlined team based workflows and very specific stylistic results (because we ALL are more educated about CG technology and the subjective nature of the market). I find the differences between the smaller teams practices and larger CG animation/rendering, workflows/pipelines are getting smaller all the time.
This is partly because there are fewer jobs available when compared to the amount of CG artists out there. Also because when investments are made in CG, it is often because CG offers a certain appeal that isn't available anywhere else. . . as clients are becoming more and more educated about that appeal. Therefore the standards between the small company and the large company are becoming more and more alike. Smaller companies have had to increase the standards of quality and scope and the larger companies have had to decrease in that regard. . . standards meeting somewhere in the middle.

Some clients I've met expect everyone to hold up a specific type of standard to make the path for the project at hand clear and readily understood. This is good but one needs to be realistic about the demands of those standards in order to expand and create more jobs.

happymilk
12-18-2013, 03:15 AM
maybe vray don't needs lightwave. But Lightwave needs vray.
I hope that NT tries all way to obtain this result.
i hope for my work and for the future of lightwave
thanks

ideart
12-24-2013, 04:26 AM
Another tool like vray would be curtainly nice for a lw artist to have as an option but I can't understand the vray messiah syndrome. Lw has Kray render and I am surprised that it isn't the standard renderer among lw users. Why would the expectation for v3.0 be a dissuasive factor from using v2.5? The Kray gallery has fantastic works that have nothing to envy from the best vray renders. Sure it has a few limitations that v3.0 won't have but the results can be amazing and rediculsly fast and for me it is the only reason with LWCAD from keeping me swithing to max-vray . Any renderer is a tool with it's own strenghts and limitations but the quality of the result depends on the artist.

prometheus
12-24-2013, 04:50 AM
The major amount of jobs in the market are for max and vray and cinema4d mograph and also now vray for cinema4d which will further strengthen cinema4 all around the world, it matters less if kray,arnold kan produces
as good or better quality, thereīs no tongue wrestle around that fact.

Agressive marketing, good price,speed and time can only make other lightwave renderer catch up in time, it wonīt happen over days, or months..it will take years to take market pieces.

I could easy browse through job ads and find 4-5 jobads directly with vray requirements and cinema4d, non for lightwave in this part of the world that is.
Vray for lightwave might be a sort of game changer, since its valuable node licensing, pricing overall for lightwave...knowldedged of vray and getting the same excpected results will be a must, and thus if available it will
strenghten individual artistīs oppertunities to be able to apply for the jobs, which are requiring vray, since no one putīs an ad up of required skills of kray...unfortunatly, or very rare.
I will not be surprised if we will also start to see more jobads requiring modo And Vray skills too.

Michael

papou
12-24-2013, 05:47 AM
I agree with Paolo. I have same problems.
How to develop my office if there are nobody using my tools?
Vray can help Lightwave to be used.
it's not about render engine quality.

ideart
12-24-2013, 06:06 AM
The autodesk-vray dominance is a fact and it's not based on the vray part. If some artist wants a better chance finding a job then he should adopt the dominant pipeline because I don't think a studio that uses max-vray to create a lw-vray seat. For the few pros that "guard the Thermopyles" using lw I think that most of us work freelance or have a decision position in a small studio. Vray would be welcome but I don't expect to open significant lw seats in the industry.

medzo
12-24-2013, 07:03 AM
my opinion: if we cant get vray, than we should have really good, in-depth tutorials on how to use Lightwave. And I don't mean tutorials like ''well, this button or slider does this or that'' but tutorials from start to finish (modeling, surfacing, lighting, render setup, post production techniques,...). Here are some users who really know how to make great renders (Otacon, Paolo, Martina,MIR, etc.). I think NT should invite them to make some tutorials so we all can learn.

geo_n
01-01-2014, 10:34 PM
Jaw dropping quality. http://www.studio-aiko.com/index.html

battery555
01-02-2014, 03:25 AM
Juan saved LW for us ..
I second that! At least for my case.