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spherical
12-12-2013, 09:02 PM
OK, seeing as how the knee jerk hammer came down because someone complained, and the thread was locked on a whim, I'll start a new thread. What really gets me as there is pretty much a thin skin when it comes to comparing applications. How the #[email protected]% are we supposed to know what is what, without having tons of $$$ to go out and buy every darn 3D application there is? Yeah, this is NT's forum. I get that. Give us a little credit for being loyal, while examining what else is out there and using that information to offer direction on where we would like to see LightWave go. Borders on rude. You want to sanction one post? Fine. Lock the whole thread and shut all of us down? Not cool.

What I was going to ask in the now (inappropriately, IMO) locked thread is:

What is the total cost to obtain the same or near functionality between LightWave and [insert other 3D application here]?

Yes, this is a complex question. In order to provide any sort of pertinent comparison, you'd have to first pick a goal: CA, ArchViz, VFX and then add in all of the plugins (and possible external standalones needed in order to make the plugins work if necessary) and add up the total cost.

The question is: How far do you have to go in other applications in order to replicate what we have in LightWave and its readily available plugins; commercial or otherwise?

This, to me, is valuable information that LW3DG could use to their benefit and I'll bet that not a lot of research has gone into doing this.

saranine
12-12-2013, 09:37 PM
Well, I guess that I can answer for my own 3D use. I am not sure what I will do with Lightwave. But since I couldn't afford Autodesk products [and the Australia tax of 3000 bucks more, the upgrades down the track for them to boot, and the possibility of them going creative cloud etc etc] I decided a few months ago to make "Lightwave on Steroids".

So I bought zbrush [with Goz!] for better painting and messiah studio for better rigging/animation. Thus I consider that in combination I have something that is a lot closer in functionality to Maya than I would have in Lightwave alone. I guess that you could also say to some degree that I got messiah studio and marmoset toolbag to have other rendering options [ not necessarily better or worse than the LW renderer, just different] .

spherical
12-12-2013, 10:33 PM
Thanks! We're in somewhat similar situations w/regard to ZBrush and Messiah. Both of these interact well with LightWave. This is what I'm attempting to learn: How much in the center of the 3D Universe is LightWave?

Ernest
12-12-2013, 11:54 PM
How the #[email protected]% are we supposed to know what is what, without having tons of $$$ to go out and buy every darn 3D application there is?

You should try the demo versions. Almost all applications offer free demos.

There are other factors. For example, for a student, the cost of Lightwave ownership is around $675, since the <$200 educational version can be upgraded to commercial just purchasing a normal upgrade of any future version.


Give us a little credit for being loyal I don't think you can do that on a public forum, since your competitors can come and post at any time.

50one
12-13-2013, 01:29 AM
Hola Amigos,

What's the point of this thread? Lot's of similar ones were closed in the past, no one knows if the devs will pay attention to them, but sure the mods will pay if mention certain 3D apps from the competitors;).

S

Surrealist.
12-13-2013, 01:39 AM
This is not a public forum. It is private. And you don't have the right to say anything or post anything.

A free flowing exchange of ideas is good for artists. But this is not an artist's only forum. If you want that. Use one of the more general forums at CGTalk. This is a LightWave artist's forum - funded by mind you - by NewTek.

As to your questions in particular this is probably the worst way to find out.

In general I ignore what people tell me at online forums regarding what choices to make as an artist regarding software. It does not take long to figure out that people are biased not only to their own interests and limited education on the matter, but also their particular use and even other motives that have nothing to do with, does a software do the trick or not.

I also have my bias but I usually also tell people to look into it for themselves. Because that is how I make decisions.

Digital Tutors is a great way to check out a lot of software before you even do a trial. Then look into ED versions, and so on.

It takes a long time and a lot of testing. There is no shortcut.

colkai
12-13-2013, 03:46 AM
This is a LW forum so the defensive tactics are bound to come into play, yes, there is a thin skin, but you find that I think with any application.
The "what LW lacks" has been debated over and over for years and at the end of the day, whoever is in charge at Newtek / LW group at the time will do what they will do. The last five years have demonstrated that perfectly, it's fair to say that by now, anyone remotely passing these forums, let alone actually working for the company / branch / subsidiary, knows what areas are felt lacking in LW, how can you not?

When all is said and done, they will add features, change direction and pay lip service as they see fit, it's their product and they will listen to who they choose to listen to. Your choice as a consumer is whether to buy the product, upgrade it, or use a competitors product to boost the flaws where you find them. Sometimes, you just have to buckle down and learn a new product before you can decide if you want it, at least with the PLe versions out there, that is not difficult.

Do a search of this and the old forums, I think you'd be amazed just how long this particular discussion topic has been going on, in many cases, with zero progress in the end, which tends to suggest, as others have said, that they are rather redundant.

EDIT: http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?8310-predictions-on-modelers-feature-list

Ahem, 'Nuff said, bear in mind that is from the NEW forums, the topic is much much older than that though.

OnlineRender
12-13-2013, 05:41 AM
OK, seeing as how the knee jerk hammer came down because someone complained, and the thread was locked on a whim,


it wasn't locked on a whim I can assure of this ...matts not the kinda guy to shut threads down without proper reasoning ..."not that he cant speak for himself " and there has been plenty of LW threads closed on the modo boards however I digress there seems to be this whole new generation of LW vs [insert application here], perhaps because it's Christmas time people are twiddling there thumbs in between renders but it's like comparing apples and oranges , this thread in itself is a loaded question, no disrespect but it tethers on the edge of playing with fire.
someone is going to get burnt.

to answer your question "How far do you have to go in other applications in order to replicate what we have in LightWave and its readily available plugins; commercial or otherwise?"

not very ... I have LWave loaded and already started modelling before MAX has even booted up :)

again apples and oranges.

Modo is a great app , brilliant community very supportive and there artists can churn out quality renders equally the same as LW artists can...

it really is the monkey behind the keyboard.

you also need to keep in mind a lot of the LW team are artists first and can use most apps and own most apps , so they are fully aware of what is missing in regards to LightWave.

colkai
12-13-2013, 09:26 AM
you also need to keep in mind a lot of the LW team are artists first and can use most apps and own most apps , so they are fully aware of what is missing in regards to LightWave.

It is not a case of being aware, we know they have been aware for a long long time. Looking back, I was often on the defensive for LW over features coming, optimistically assuming knowing a problem exists meant steps would be taken to address it. These days, I find I judge more by what is produced and looking back, I find my posts rather naive and fanboyish. Experience they say is what you get when you don't get what you want, I am far too experienced for my own liking. :p

jeric_synergy
12-13-2013, 09:54 AM
Here's a tangential question: do/can devs charge for Blender plugins (googling did not clear that up for me)???

My question is relating to: if there's no commercial plugins for free Blender, there's no way to compare costs.

OTOH, one could certainly compare capabilities. For instance, is there ANY way to get LWCAD-type functionality in Blender?

OnlineRender
12-13-2013, 11:10 AM
you can get commercial plugins and some of the blender full time staff are on a wage


It is not a case of being aware, we know they have been aware for a long long time. Looking back, I was often on the defensive for LW over features coming, optimistically assuming knowing a problem exists meant steps would be taken to address it. These days, I find I judge more by what is produced and looking back, I find my posts rather naive and fanboyish. Experience they say is what you get when you don't get what you want, I am far too experienced for my own liking. :p

Colkai not for one second am I defending some of NT's actions however I think it would be ignorant not to give credit where it's due... LW11 has been a huge step forward since 9 " I DONT COUNT 10" in terms of marketing ,documentation and the actual physical product bugs & all :) even just dropping the dongle was a big step in the right direction , it's going to be slow and things will not change over night ,perhaps it is the fanboy in myself but I believe LW3DG is on the right road , don't get me wrong sometimes you get the odd WTF moment with them...

arail
12-13-2013, 11:15 AM
there has been plenty of LW threads closed on the modo boards



What!
The only threads I'm aware of ever having been closed on the modo boards have either been spam or a couple of threads where posters were verbally abusive to one another (and even that is very, very rare). I don't believe any thread has ever been closed because of criticism of modo or luxology or as a result of praising other software packages. We criticize the software, the company, features we feel are inadequate or lacking (snapping comes up for a flailing on a regular basis). We talk up other software packages (I can't imagine how many customers Zbrush has gotten as a result of the adulation that modo users feel towards that application - and it's regularly touted as the 'solution' to the inadequacy of modo's sculpting tools). And eveyone lives happily ever after.

Adage: the solution to the problems of free speech is always more free speech, not less.

OnlineRender
12-13-2013, 11:38 AM
Sciamachy

(n.) a battle against imaginary enemies:
fighting your shadow

you may be correct in regards to them being closed for legit reasons as highlighted in original post the modo community is very supportive but by that measurement NT Forums are the exact same...

trust me I have pushed them a fair bit over the years and you should hear what gets said in private skype ... RAGEQUIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


like I said I this thread is loaded

Ryan Roye
12-13-2013, 12:11 PM
like I said I this thread is loaded

This. I don't really care that people talk about other software here (even though in many cases it is against forum policy (http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?63919-NewTek-Discussion-Forums-Moderation-Policy))... in fact in some cases it is really beneficial to do so. Blender, for instance, adds a *TON* of value to Lightwave despite the fact that technically speaking it is a "competing" software package, and it provides mac users with a way to have better UV tools without investing in additional software while still taking advantage of Lightwave's strengths... no one will argue that LW needs better UV tools native of course. This is an example of healthy discussion that involves other software packages.

What isn't healthy discussion, are threads that leave Lightwave as an afterthought and instead only serve as vehicles of advertisement for competing software packages (whether intentional or not). This isn't about the LW dev crew being thin-skinned, this is about keeping the forum on-topic; it is bad enough seeing 6+ threads on the LIGHTWAVE forums mostly about MODO... regardless of the justification people try to put behind that.

EDIT: Also, to be clear, this isn't just a problem with the Lightwave forums... CGTalk has had to crack down on this stuff as well (http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=5&t=162171) in their lightwave forum section... though, at this point most of the users who posted in the Lightwave section had left.

spherical
12-13-2013, 07:43 PM
This is a LightWave artist's forum - funded by mind you - by NewTek.

Actually, it's "funded" by us. Customers fund everything.

spherical
12-13-2013, 07:45 PM
Ahem, 'Nuff said, bear in mind that is from the NEW forums, the topic is much much older than that though.

Fully aware of the threads in the older forums. Check the line above my avatar.

spherical
12-13-2013, 07:57 PM
it wasn't locked on a whim I can assure of this ...matts not the kinda guy to shut threads down without proper reasoning ...

That's what I thought. chazriker utters a comment, mostly about the thread belonging in another forum, but has the "advertisement' trigger word in it, and 50 minutes later... Clank! I came in with a question I wanted to ask in that thread and got: "talk to the hand".


to answer your question "How far do you have to go in other applications in order to replicate what we have in LightWave and its readily available plugins; commercial or otherwise?"

not very ... I have LWave loaded and already started modelling before MAX has even booted up :)

You're evidently missing the point, as are a number of others. I'll rephrase it so that it perhaps can't be misread:

How much extra stuff do you have to add to other applications in order to get the capabilities of LW and how many extra $$$ do they cost?

We all have a bazzilion plugins installed, some commercial, some free. I'm sure that users of other applications have the same. There are users here who have every darn 3D application there is and know at least some of the answers to this. I'm not looking for "how X application is better than LW". I'm looking for "How LW is better than most anything else." I'd wager, but don't know until the data comes in that when you throw the cost into the equation, LW gets even better. What's wrong with that?

If nothing else, get this: I'm trying to Like LightWave and want more to do the same. Can't have "Like" without anything to compare. Can't know "dark" without knowing "light". Otherwise you're just living in a vacuum and from what has been shared in other threads, a vacuum exists out there, whether anyone wants to acknowledge it or not. Does: "LightWave? Is that still around?" sound familiar?

spherical
12-13-2013, 07:59 PM
Here's a tangential question: do/can devs charge for Blender plugins (googling did not clear that up for me)???

My question is relating to: if there's no commercial plugins for free Blender, there's no way to compare costs.

OTOH, one could certainly compare capabilities. For instance, is there ANY way to get LWCAD-type functionality in Blender?

Exactly! Thank you.

spherical
12-13-2013, 08:12 PM
like I said I this thread is loaded

Only because certain people steer it that way. To be expected, I suppose, but it shouldn't prevent a healthy discussion from being begun at all.

Surrealist.
12-13-2013, 11:02 PM
Actually, it's "funded" by us. Customers fund everything.

OK if you are going to split hairs on this. Wrong. You are not funding this at all. You are purchasing a product at a fair exchange market value for services/products rendered. End of contract. Find the part in your contract for purchasing LightWave where it details how much of your "funding" is contributed to online forums.

You won't. Your money is funding LightWave which you have received and are using in good faith according to your contract.

NewTek has the right to take profits they have made from selling services and products to invest in any way they choose and they are not under any obligation or contract with you as to how that money is spent or how other free services they provide are to be regulated or conducted.

If however, we are paying for these boards directly, though some membership and as long as that membership allowed - by contract - for us to determine content that would be another matter.

You are confusing this with free speech and other social/political matters that are also discussion that is not allowed here. So I won't go into details.


The following items are not considered professional or civil discourse allowed on these forums:

Off-topic and controversial subjects such as Religion and Politics
Comments of an "off color" nature inappropriate for viewing by minors
Non-constructive criticism of a malicious nature
Personal attacks against NewTek customers or employees and their family members
Promotional messages and material for competing products

The above is what we are bound by and being here is a privilege not a right.

Do I violate some of those? I am sure I have plenty of times.

Does NewTek catch and stop or check everything? Of course not.

They fully have the prerogative to do as they please.

Walking the thin line between allowing free discussion - which happens quite frequently here in strictest violation of the above - and choosing when to clamp down, is something they have done extremely well over the years.

I say grant these folks a little respect when they do step up and put the foot down on things they have every right to do.

You want a free discussion as I said, not restricted by commercial interests, use one of the main (not software specific forums) at someplace like CGTalk where people are free to discuss and argue these points to no end.

Di I think NewTek would be better off just letting it slide. Sure. Actually. But it is not my call and when they put the policy down it is time to show respect not insolence IMHO.

jeric_synergy
12-14-2013, 12:11 AM
Matt didn't shut that thread down until it veered into inappropriate areas. IMO, he was right to do so. Their shop, their rules.

Let's just keep this thread on the correct side of the line.

++++

For posters who want a more 'lively' atmosphere unbeholden to LW3DG I encourage posting at Liberty3d.com's forums: Kat appreciates a good brouhaha, and the LW chops over there are of good quality.

danielkaiser
12-14-2013, 12:49 AM
Time to resurrect this one.

Lightwave VS Notepad (http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?75-Lightwave-VS-Notepad)

spherical
12-14-2013, 02:28 AM
A bunch of stuff

Talk about splitting hairs.... wow. What a lecture.

We'll just agree to disagree.

UnCommonGrafx
12-14-2013, 09:05 AM
Haven't read the rules of the forum, huh?

Just signing in to cause trouble.
Thanks.

colkai
12-15-2013, 05:34 AM
Well, if we are talking where LW is better than other software, are we talking native or 3rd party add on, (oops, plugin :p)?
Take out all those 3rd party plugins and look natively and modeller wise, say vs Blender, the one thing that I use a lot in LW is the stencil/drill/core tool for soild/templates, I find that incredibly handy and miss it in Blender.
Add in the 3rd party stuff though and then are you comparing the plugin rather than the product?
LW has had "edge support" for ages if you count the edge tools plugin someone created a while back, without that plugin, only recently has LW gained limited edge support, but that has been a decade in the asking.
Likewise snapping, no LWCAD, no flexible snapping for many moons, dunno if 11.5 has any such facilities.
How many of us run the "pure" LW bevel only? I'd wager most are running Bevel++ or Vertibevel.
I guess what I'm saying is, it's difficult to compare like for like if you allow for additional paid products to be counted as part of the actual product you are judging, it can make things look a lot sweeter than they are.

Not that LW is broken natively, but rather restricted, at least in modelling terms. I'd be the first to admit that outside of modeller a LOT of effort and resources have been spent. Certainly the VPR / virtual camera thingy seems to have people excited so I presume that is something LW has over other packages.

hrgiger
12-15-2013, 09:04 AM
i guess its hard to answer the question because i just dont think of things in those terms. "same functionality" probably means different things for different people. There are a few other apps that I could be (and have)using that if you just compare their respective list of features vs LightWave's, you would think those apps were better. But I think thats a completely non-objective way of looking at it. But having experience in both of those other programs has shown me that overall, Im better off with LW, at least at this time. LightWave is affordable, fairly straight forward, capable of more then what many people give it credit for and if they just improved some key issues with it (which admittedly are fairly significant ), it would completely fill my needs. LWCAD makes Modeler much more appealing to use and i dont see any ofthe other apps that cant match some of its functionality(and i know one that has blatantly tried copying it) and now that im moving more and more of my modeling to Zbrush, GoZ was an important addition to LW for me.

jeric_synergy
12-15-2013, 09:46 AM
I'm such a schmuck I use Bevel and Multishift. (Is Vertibevel even available any more??)

OT, but: a list of AREAS and FUNCTIONS where we could pass models around to for specific tasks would convenient: for instance, I understand/read that Blender's UV tools are the bee's knees. For that particular task, it might be worth it to pass the mesh over, and back, rather than struggling with inferior functionality.

If there's other specific tools that complement LWModeler, a semi-sticky list would be nice.

colkai
12-15-2013, 10:55 AM
I've actually started a thread on BlenderArtists forum called "Blender vs Lightwave - toolset", to try and get a cross-comparison. It would be handy if using Blender as a LW "plugin" to see what things do so moving stuff between them is as efficient as possible. Not as easy as running a 'native' plugin, but not too far off these days.

hrgiger
12-15-2013, 11:12 AM
If there's other specific tools that complement LWModeler, a semi-sticky list would be nice.

Well LWCAD obviously. It would be hard for me to consider using Modeler with out. I consider every new version of LWCAD an upgrade to modeler.

Zbrush also. Even though it is a modeling application in itself, it also gives you excellent UV tools and a retopo solution as well that compliment modeler. Especially since GoZ provides a one click bridge between the two apps.

Of course those cost extra and might not be for everyone.

jeric_synergy
12-15-2013, 12:09 PM
I suppose a freebie list would be a different thing.

:grumpy: It's all so SCATTERED-- that's why I'm always plumping for centralized resource lists. :(

colkai
12-16-2013, 03:15 AM
Well Vertibevel used to be a must have, but that seems to have fell off the radar. So Bevel++ would be the contender, then factor in pretty much all of Pictrix plugins and many from TrueArt.

If you want to get a feel for life in "native" modeller, try installing a 'pure' copy without 3rd party plugins, then see how long before you find yourself thinking, well, if I just include the "xxx" plugin. :p

Apart from the LWCAD tabs, I have a tab labelled "essentials", with things like TrueFillet, Jettolocal, Bevel++, Edgeslide, UME & Pictrix plugins, PLg UV plugins, JWTools, Edgetools (3rd party addons).

To put it in conext, the Lightwave model plugin directory has 57 files and 10MB in size.
My "NINE" 3rd party plugin folder has 668 files and is 114MB in size, BEFORE you add in LWCAD, Vertibevel and any pre-lw9 plugins I still run, (of which there are many).

So figuring which are "essential" is not easy. :p

jeric_synergy
12-16-2013, 11:18 AM
My trouble is I don't work enough to integrate the various "must have" plugins mentally, and frankly I can't even understand most of the DPont plugins, which I realize would totally bring my LW production to another level.

colkai
12-17-2013, 03:37 AM
Well, some folks are just too darned clever. :p