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geo_n
12-10-2013, 06:56 PM
How about it? Sell an improved modeller separately for 49-99usd to compete with Modo Steam Edition.
http://store.steampowered.com/app/244290

Great way to get more potential lightwave users, +300000 users playing games on steam at any given time.
Let them know that there exists Lightwave 3D which is a full 3d application.


What's needed
- UV mapping, uvunwrap, uvpacking, etc
Already ideas from PLG somone just needs to make native version.

- Texture baking all maps, diffuse, spec, bump, normal, etc from highpoly cage to low poly cage
There's already PB texture baker that newtek can get ideas from and make native version.

- Export to steam engine, etc.
get idea from modo steam edition how they implemented it.

- Video documentation from model to uploaded asset. This is always lacking from Newtek.
Watch how its done
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=202604023#-1

hrgiger
12-11-2013, 05:40 AM
i think its a good idea if they can make a version of modeler that has some enhancements specific to game creators. Modo steam has an outright advantage since it has a render preview. I dont know how feasible it would be to put a vpr preview in LW modeler. Another drawback of the split app.

cresshead
12-11-2013, 06:03 AM
i think its a good idea if they can make a version of modeler that has some enhancements specific to game creators. Modo steam has an outright advantage since it has a render preview. I dont know how feasible it would be to put a vpr preview in LW modeler. Another drawback of the split app.

well if Lightwave 3d Group want to compete in the area of Modo steam plus Maya LT then they could push layout into the game version and enable rigging and animation like Maya LT has.

hrgiger
12-11-2013, 06:19 AM
yeah the XSI mod tool had all of XSI's animation tools included and it was free. Sadly no longer available.

geo_n
12-11-2013, 06:32 AM
I can live without the render preview and would most likely spend the savings on marmoset which is a much better tool to visualize the game asset.
Maya LT is almost 800usd so that's really not affordable for some people on steam.

Skonk
12-11-2013, 07:31 AM
Here at the college where I work, we will shortly be completely dropping Lightwave 3D and moving over to maya.

It's not because we think Maya is better, it's not because of the fact that Lightwave has a bad rep, or that we get a lot of "Lightwave? didn't realise people still used that"... but rather, it's because of the simple question we get asked by almost all students... "can I get this at home?"

We can no longer justify using Lightwave, which has no version freely available to students, when students can get a totally free, un-crippled, un-watermarked, 3 year educational license of pretty much ALL Autodesk products.

So yeh, a cheap Steam version would be nice; but what would be better is not charging at all for non-commercial licenses; get more people learning the program due to it being more accessible; get more places teaching it because they know their students can access it at home and in the end get more customers buying the commercial version because it's the program they know how to use.

I don't want to move over to maya; personally I love using Lightwave... but after years of it being on the cards, we have had to give in to the pressure.

GandB
12-11-2013, 08:26 AM
Another factor is NewTek/LW3DG attitude towards game artists as a whole. For a few years now, the once in awhile response I always got was "we love our game developers".....with little to no actual follow-through. It continues to this day. LW3DG's focus is on television, movies and commercials; that's about it (with a smattering of arch-viz). So don't hold your breath on this one; I don't see it happening anytime soon....if at all. Don't get me wrong; I would LOVE to see the ship steered in the direction of the multi-billion dollar industry, but after years of pleading with them, I don't hold out much hope on any actual concrete (really-real) action on their part. Just more lip service. Have a look at the Gallery; see any amount of game art there? Modo is actually moving in the direction of real game development support; LW isn't.

hrgiger
12-11-2013, 08:39 AM
Another factor is NewTek/LW3DG attitude towards game artists as a whole. For a few years now, the once in awhile response I always got was "we love our game developers".....with little to no actual follow-through. It continues to this day. LW3DG's focus is on television, movies and commercials; that's about it (with a smattering of arch-viz). So don't hold your breath on this one; I don't see it happening anytime soon....if at all. Don't get me wrong; I would LOVE to see the ship steered in the direction of the multi-billion dollar industry, but after years of pleading with them, I don't hold out much hope on any actual concrete (really-real) action on their part. Just more lip service. Have a look at the Gallery; see any amount of game art there? Modo is actually moving in the direction of real game development support; LW isn't.

Hey Keith. Not being a game artist, im just curious, what important things do you feel are missing from LW important for game artists?

cresshead
12-11-2013, 10:35 AM
well if Lightwave 3d Group want to compete in the area of Modo steam plus Maya LT then they could push layout into the game version and enable rigging and animation like Maya LT has.

still available actually but not through autocash and not updated past 7.5

Gmax is also still available from turbosquid btw and was based on 3dsmax 4

Matt
12-11-2013, 11:39 AM
This is actually something we have been thinking about for some time, guess they had the same idea we did.

shrox
12-11-2013, 11:51 AM
Another factor is NewTek/LW3DG attitude towards game artists as a whole. For a few years now, the once in awhile response I always got was "we love our game developers".....with little to no actual follow-through. It continues to this day. LW3DG's focus is on television, movies and commercials; that's about it (with a smattering of arch-viz). So don't hold your breath on this one; I don't see it happening anytime soon....if at all. Don't get me wrong; I would LOVE to see the ship steered in the direction of the multi-billion dollar industry, but after years of pleading with them, I don't hold out much hope on any actual concrete (really-real) action on their part. Just more lip service. Have a look at the Gallery; see any amount of game art there? Modo is actually moving in the direction of real game development support; LW isn't.

Yes, even when I was an art director at Sega, NewTek just didn't seem interested that Lightwave was being used for models and even texture maps.

chikega
12-11-2013, 11:56 AM
Here at the college where I work, we will shortly be completely dropping Lightwave 3D and moving over to maya ....
I wonder if that's partly the reason the DAVE school dropped LW this past summer.

chikega
12-11-2013, 12:00 PM
Well, MODO has better UV layout and retopo tools. It also has sculpting and painting tools. To be honest, LW Modeler would only compete with Silo2 on Steam which I think is hilarious since Silo2 hasn't been developed for several years now. And then you have an open-source app like Blender which already has inroads to the Source engine:

https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Blender_Source_Tools

geo_n: your idea would work, but there would still be a need for something like ZBrush, 3dCoat or even Blender for sculpting and retopology.

geo_n
12-11-2013, 02:03 PM
This is actually something we have been thinking about for some time, guess they had the same idea we did.

Please follow through with this. Whether its full lightwave or modeller LT. Its not that hard to put your software on steam. We did it and we're a smaller group. Guess there's less redtape than a bigger company but still. Silo as dead as it is its on steam. How amazing is that!

Its also mindboggling why there's no free educ version or ple for lightwave. Sad thing to hear another user saying their school will stop teaching lightwave.

Phil
12-11-2013, 02:05 PM
LW's equivalent of PLE seems to be the laughably crippled Discovery Mode, named for the discovery of untold amounts of frustration that it provokes.

Tranimatronic
12-11-2013, 02:16 PM
really though, the only thing worse than having new pople looking at Lightwave and not liking it, is having noone looking at it at all.

Matt
12-11-2013, 03:17 PM
Another factor is NewTek/LW3DG attitude towards game artists as a whole.

We are aware that retopology, tagging, intelligent presets, baking, UV and modelling tools drastically need improving for this market (and others). We haven't pushed selling in this area as doing so without more dedicated tools would be premature at this stage.

shrox
12-11-2013, 03:37 PM
We are aware that retopology, tagging, intelligent presets, baking, UV and modelling tools drastically need improving for this market (and others). We haven't pushed selling in this area as doing so without more dedicated tools would be premature at this stage.

How about highlighting people that are right now using Lightwave in games? I don't do games now, but they are out there.

Matt
12-11-2013, 04:01 PM
How about highlighting people that are right now using Lightwave in games? I don't do games now, but they are out there.

I'm not involved in that side of things (the news / interviews etc.) but I do believe we have done that, of course, can always do far more.

Matt
12-11-2013, 04:03 PM
Here at the college where I work ....

I've passed your thoughts on, I think they are valid.

geo_n
12-11-2013, 04:04 PM
We are aware that retopology, tagging, intelligent presets, baking, UV and modelling tools drastically need improving for this market (and others). We haven't pushed selling in this area as doing so without more dedicated tools would be premature at this stage.

Ask Sensei how long he did his simple "retopo" tool then develop something similar, better. The uv tool only needs to be expanded a bit. The ideas are already out there, PLG, 3dcoat, etc. There's surface baking in layout that can be transferred to modeller. Pb texture baker for modeller already has a good implementation that could be a base for workflow.

It might be selling a few dozen modeller license for 49-99usd is more profitable than selling a few seats of lw a month.

Matt
12-11-2013, 04:23 PM
Of course, let's be clear, LightWave is a valid tool for game development, people are using it for exactly this. Just needs some love in certain areas, and we are aware of this. I would rather be honest that just say "we love our game developers".

shrox
12-11-2013, 04:41 PM
... "we love our game developers".

If you really loved us, you'd give us free kittens.

geo_n
12-11-2013, 10:43 PM
Modo steam edition is top seller. I'm about to buy in as well.
http://store.steampowered.com/software/


Shameless plug
Check the coming soon :D

Oedo 808
12-11-2013, 11:12 PM
If a LightWave student/non-commercial licence was sorted out for free/reasonable cost, then I think seeing LW on Steam could be plausible, because there's a lot that could be added to a promo vid to make it attractive vs. Modo Steam Edition, but I'm not sure I can see a Modeler Lite being worthwhile.

*edit*

Well of course if it was given all the additions to give it parity it would be, but I can't see that happening for a while. Promoting LW compatibility with 3D-Coat whose $99 educational licence includes hobbyists and is already on Steam, could be a way to help cover some of the things that people might feel they'd miss, perhaps a LW/3D-Coat Steam bundle.

spherical
12-11-2013, 11:29 PM
Modo steam edition is top seller. I'm about to buy in as well.

Does a full MODO 701 have all of the functionality of the Steam Edition or are they two very similar, but different, applications?

geo_n
12-11-2013, 11:31 PM
but I'm not sure I can see a Modeler Lite being worthwhile.


Is it because modeller is very poor compared to Modo Steam Edition? For myself I can create game ready models with modeller with some additional third party plugins which could be coded natively for modeller with not so much time.

Besides what has been listed, what else could be missing compared to modo steam?

geo_n
12-11-2013, 11:34 PM
Does a full MODO 701 have all of the functionality of the Steam Edition or are they two very similar, but different, applications?

Afaik only the direct export to source engine is missing in modo standard. But that could be sold to modo standard users as a plugin to get more cash for Foundry I'm sure.
Modo SE doesn't have anything else but modelling, shading, sculpting, painting. There's nothing in there that would interest modo standard users.

spherical
12-11-2013, 11:54 PM
Afaik only the direct export to source engine is missing in modo standard. But that could be sold to modo standard users as a plugin to get more cash for Foundry I'm sure.
Modo SE doesn't have anything else but modelling, shading, sculpting, painting. There's nothing in there that would interest modo standard users.

So they're very craftily different and buying into the full application still means that you have to buy into the Steam Edition, too, if you want to export to game stuff.

Oedo 808
12-12-2013, 12:30 AM
Is it because modeller is very poor compared to Modo Steam Edition?

For myself I can create game ready models with modeller with some additional third party plugins which could be coded natively for modeller with not so much time.

Besides what has been listed, what else could be missing compared to modo steam?

I stand corrected, if all we needed was for you to ask for better UV tools, sculpting, retopo, painting, shading and baking inside Modeler, then let's do this.

I look forward to seeing these additions in "not so much time".

Hope they add them to regular LW and don't just keep them for this Steam version though.

Skonk
12-12-2013, 02:07 AM
If a LightWave student/non-commercial licence was sorted out for free/reasonable cost, then I think seeing LW on Steam could be plausible, because there's a lot that could be added to a promo vid to make it attractive vs. Modo Steam Edition, but I'm not sure I can see a Modeler Lite being worthwhile.

*edit*

Well of course if it was given all the additions to give it parity it would be, but I can't see that happening for a while. Promoting LW compatibility with 3D-Coat whose $99 educational licence includes hobbyists and is already on Steam, could be a way to help cover some of the things that people might feel they'd miss, perhaps a LW/3D-Coat Steam bundle.

When Newtek dropped the Dongle requirement I really had high hopes that, with the reduced cost of not requiring a physical piece of hardware, they would do something with the educational license to really put it on par with what Autodesk have been doing for years (I.E. students get it for free for the duration of their studies). Sadly this never happened.

Oedo 808
12-12-2013, 02:43 AM
When Newtek dropped the Dongle requirement I really had high hopes that, with the reduced cost of not requiring a physical piece of hardware, they would do something with the educational license to really put it on par with what Autodesk have been doing for years (I.E. students get it for free for the duration of their studies). Sadly this never happened.

Did you catch Matt's post #20 (http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?139123-Newtek-Modeller-Steam-Edition&p=1357553&viewfull=1#post1357553), hopefully this is something they will consider, but I'm not sure how much control the LightWave Group have over the licensing. Matt also shows that he at least is aware of the idea of matching marketing pushes with possible developments to the program.

geo_n
12-12-2013, 04:07 AM
So people are complaining about the very limited functionality of Modo ST. Its not really a stand alone modeller for 149usd. They're calling it crippleware that's only for creating assets specifically for dota and not even other games on steam. Also models can only be exported to fbx and are limited to 7000polys and non commercial. I'm on the fence still since the limitation is a bit strict.

Here's the listed features
http://steamcommunity.com/app/244290/discussions/0/630799808377375564/

hrgiger
12-12-2013, 04:40 AM
Why would they make this non-commercial? I think if LW3DG do eventually have a similar offering they shouldn't put that restriction on it.

Kuzey
12-12-2013, 05:47 AM
So people are complaining about the very limited functionality of Modo ST. Its not really a stand alone modeller for 149usd. They're calling it crippleware that's only for creating assets specifically for dota and not even other games on steam. Also models can only be exported to fbx and are limited to 7000polys and non commercial. I'm on the fence still since the limitation is a bit strict.

Here's the listed features
http://steamcommunity.com/app/244290/discussions/0/630799808377375564/

Ouch..so it's basically an expensive play-ware.

I remember some members saying Core, at it final state was a replacement for Modeler..so why not release that as steam Core...just don't call it Modeler so people won't get them confused..just thinking out loud :)

hrgiger
12-12-2013, 07:45 AM
I remember some members saying Core, at it final state was a replacement for Modeler..so why not release that as steam Core...just don't call it Modeler so people won't get them confused..just thinking out loud :)

Keep in mind I supported the CORE app when I say this but no, CORE was nowhere ready to replace modeler and wouldn't have for some time.

Kuzey
12-12-2013, 07:51 AM
Keep in mind I supported the CORE app when I say this but no, CORE was nowhere ready to replace modeler and wouldn't have for some time.

Shame..the impression I got at the time...was some people already replaced Modeler with Core...oh well :)

Phil
12-12-2013, 09:04 AM
Shame..the impression I got at the time...was some people already replaced Modeler with Core...oh well :)

I think some folks still use it for some specific tasks by setting their system block back (I think the builds were time-bombed).

shermanlu
12-12-2013, 10:40 AM
We can no longer justify using Lightwave, which has no version freely available to students, when students can get a totally free, un-crippled, un-watermarked, 3 year educational license of pretty much ALL Autodesk products.



Totally Agree with it...

cresshead
12-12-2013, 11:10 AM
There's lots of opportunities for new markets for 3d, steam being one of them...
maybe not jump aboard this bandwagon right now as lightwave would need some specific tools to compete well in this area.
However there are plenty of other areas to look at for a lower cost niche areas for a entry level edition for Lightwave or some other focussed 3d app from the Lightwave Group.

lightwave's core market right now is T.V vfx work
lightwave also has a great cel shader for the Japanese anime market where sales are also strong.

maybe the lightwave group could think out of the box and come out with a low cost entry level similar to how they did back in 1998 with Inspire 3d

the tablet market is huge right now for android and ios...autodesk have dipped their toes in...how about newtek?

JamesCurtis
12-12-2013, 12:58 PM
Lightwave Layout and Modeler on Android and ios - now that would really be something!!

geo_n
12-12-2013, 11:08 PM
Why would they make this non-commercial? I think if LW3DG do eventually have a similar offering they shouldn't put that restriction on it.

A Foundry rep said that they needed to keep Modo ST very limited in order not to erode the sales of the Modo standard app.
In a way there's more modelling task around the globe than any other dcc work and if they find that Modo ST can do the task well enough why would they buy the full standard app. Hence they put lots of limit.
Maybe its shortsighted or maybe they're right since Modo is not really begging for new users since its doing well right now. Its a take it or leave it situation for Foundry.

So in Modeller STs situation I think it won't erode any sales of full Lightwave at all. It might actually help put Lightwave in the map again like the other thread about Digital Tutors, there's just no presence of Lightwave outside of lightwave forums.

hrgiger
12-13-2013, 12:48 AM
I think that's a bogus argument. I saw one of their developers say they are looking into an upgrade path to Modo 701. If they do that, then it will likely only increase sales of the full standard app. Because anyone who does any serious work with it is not going to be satisfied with the stripped down version for long.

geo_n
12-13-2013, 12:55 AM
I think that's a bogus argument. I saw one of their developers say they are looking into an upgrade path to Modo 701. If they do that, then it will likely only increase sales of the full standard app. Because anyone who does any serious work with it is not going to be satisfied with the stripped down version for long.

That's why they are limiting ST to what it is because then you'd be inclined to upgrade to full modo since you're already hooked and invested. :D That's pretty clever and smart strategy.
Its presented as a tool for selling models and given a name as Steam Edition but its only for Dota2. But people might not realize its near impossible to get your models approved for sale with the loooooong list of models waiting to be appraised. You can export 7k polys by fbx but can't make use of it commercially. So what is it good for except to learn modo???
Its a paid PLE nothing more.

spherical
12-13-2013, 02:12 AM
If the other thread is an "advertisement for Modo"....

Oedo 808
12-13-2013, 05:27 AM
If the other thread is an "advertisement for Modo"....

It's hardly turned into a resounding endorsement for it.

spherical
12-13-2013, 07:10 PM
Neither did the other one, IMO. I don't know what the flap was about. Can't even discuss differences without fear of stepping over some arbitrary line.

geo_n
12-13-2013, 09:44 PM
This is more of a suggestion to Newtek really. What tools could be created to make it more game dev friendly.
What pitfalls to avoid by looking at maya LT and modo ST. There's a lot of things to learn by looking at the mistakes modo ST did recently.

SubDProxy
12-15-2013, 05:51 PM
This is more of a suggestion to Newtek really. What tools could be created to make it more game dev friendly.
What pitfalls to avoid by looking at maya LT and modo ST. There's a lot of things to learn by looking at the mistakes modo ST did recently.

Marketing is the first step by at least developing their own in-house Game project. That would be great.

I use Lightwave everyday in our studio. Tools that could be improved is being able to read and bake ZBrush polypaint objects. I only know of xNormal being able to bake an object with ZBrush polypaint to a low poly object. I think Topogun does it as well but not so sure, it crashes too much for me. So, better baking tools would be great. Better polygon reduction tools and the ability to create LOD's from geometry. That would be a great step forward.

Glen

geo_n
12-16-2013, 06:47 AM
Does zbrush support vertex colors?
With 3dcoat its possible to export a voxel sculp with vertex colors. Modeller can read this info.
Now you can bake the voxel sculpt to a low poly model with uv using pb tool plugin in modeller. But if newtek did sell modeller steam they can't tell people to download a plugin for baking they should make their own.

probiner
12-16-2013, 07:13 AM
Does zbrush support vertex colors?
Zbrush foundation in painting is "Polypaint" aka vertex colors.

To be honest it will feel like "catch-up" and Modo doesn't have an all easy task when Blender is still avaible for free in the indie world. That's why it went on a partnership with Valve so it can penetrate strong in a corner. Who would NT go along with?

Anyways it would be great to get go into alternative markets.
Cheers

geo_n
12-16-2013, 07:41 AM
Agree it would be playing catchup. But how do you catchup if you don't start yet.
Blender is blender, thats all I can say. :D

ianr
12-16-2013, 10:27 AM
Well,
How about when i feel the urge to model on da' move:

LW MOBO --- ipad /Tablet Modeler (Full) with Dropbox type hooks! :thumbsup:

Plus a stylus drawing version later, like Wacom Cintiq


There you go!, just send the consultancy fee to my swiss account

cresshead
12-16-2013, 05:06 PM
Well,
How about when i feel the urge to model on da' move:

LW MOBO --- ipad /Tablet Modeler (Full) with Dropbox type hooks! :thumbsup:

Plus a stylus drawing version later, like Wacom Cintiq


There you go!, just send the consultancy fee to my swiss account

no pictures...no cash!

re alternate versions- remember 3d aresnel?

http://www.dvpa.com/public/images/rightImage2.gif


and inspire 3d?
http://www.jiawen.net/Surfacing1.jpg

http://com-unique.net/ima/airbus3d.jpg

118736

cresshead
12-16-2013, 05:10 PM
also don't forget newtek was the first to put a 3d app on nintendo ds too.


http://forums.newtek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=52661&d=1196429967

so the foundry are hardly pushing the boat out are they?

geo_n
12-16-2013, 05:10 PM
Well,
How about when i feel the urge to model on da' move:

LW MOBO --- ipad /Tablet Modeler (Full) with Dropbox type hooks! :thumbsup:

Plus a stylus drawing version later, like Wacom Cintiq


There you go!, just send the consultancy fee to my swiss account

You mean your illegal, unknown by irs swiss account? Check is on the mail :D

Btw its probably not a far off idea. We are considering a mobile 3d app in the near future.
Autodesk has already started with its 123 line of 3d applications for the Ipad which works great btw.

ianr
12-17-2013, 10:55 AM
Ha look dudes Pay in Swiss Chocolate money it is
just about Xmas. Come On Matt look at my suggestion

geo_n
12-17-2013, 05:37 PM
Ha look dudes Pay in Swiss Chocolate money it is
just about Xmas. Come On Matt look at my suggestion

Had to google Swiss Chocolate money.
Generation gap there :D

jwiede
12-18-2013, 02:25 AM
Ha look dudes Pay in Swiss Chocolate money it is

Still more useful/valuable than bitcoin. :devil:

ianr
12-18-2013, 03:32 AM
LOL jwiede,

CHOCOIN!
'Ita melt the markets'
quote G.Gekko

lardbros
12-18-2013, 04:05 AM
Thanks, Matt, for popping in!

I'm very keen on LightWave being used more for games.... we use CryEngine A LOT and could REALLY do with better support for things like baking, and a proper exporter that would work well. Like you say though, there are many other areas that need improvement before you push Modeller into gaming markets again.

Serious Sam was the last thing that I remember it being used in... Oooh... and the beautiful work done on Shadow of the Collusus! SUCH a gorgeous game, with some superb making-of videos floating around the internet too!

Emmanuel
12-21-2013, 04:44 AM
We are aware that retopology, tagging, intelligent presets, baking, UV and modelling tools drastically need improving for this market (and others). We haven't pushed selling in this area as doing so without more dedicated tools would be premature at this stage.

Very reasonabl, and what I thought, too.

Emmanuel
12-21-2013, 04:49 AM
I tought Game engines and pipeleines last summer at university, and had like 8 students. i used Maya, Blender and Lightwave, and one of the students actually bought an educational version of LW, cause he loved it so much. We had free versions of Maya and Blender, and he bought LW !

geo_n
12-22-2013, 12:37 AM
I encourage newtek to pursue the steam market. I have FIRST HAND info, steam is really great. Tens of thousands of hit on the first two days in the homepage that initially came from steam website. Sales figures I cant talk about but top seller...
I'm sure modo st is doing well, too, even at a higher price.
So doing the math, theoretically at 59usd x 1000 license and the benefit of more lw users. The effort is worth it.