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View Full Version : Klicking at cameras to preview them



pederw
12-09-2013, 06:01 AM
Hi,

Would really see the oppertunity (with on/off switch) to take cameras to preview by klicking on them with the mouse.
Itīs hard sometimes to react quick enough to go live, but if I had it visually by just klicking on the camera I would take to preview it would be easier.

This functionality could actually be on screen 2.

SBowie
12-09-2013, 07:37 AM
Just as background, we had functionality like that for years, but few ever used it, especially when they have a CS. In the end it was eliminated in favor of double-clicking monitor viewports to open the settings panel for the associated source.

Ben Freedman
12-09-2013, 03:36 PM
Isn't it funny how 'enhancements' are often setbacks for other users... Like not being able to move the preview/program divider horizontally, as you could in previous versions...

That's why it'd be great to include all these little bits of functionality as a 'choice' in the preferences... Then you end up pleasing a lot more people... :)

Best,

Ben

SBowie
12-09-2013, 04:08 PM
That's why it'd be great to include all these little bits of functionality as a 'choice' in the preferences... Then you end up pleasing a lot more people... :)You'd think so, but there is a lot of convincing UI design theory that runs counter to trying to be all things to all people...

Ben Freedman
12-09-2013, 04:10 PM
Hmmm... Go by convincing UI design theory? Or ask the customers.... :)

Best,

Ben

UnCommonGrafx
12-09-2013, 04:12 PM
Convincing UI design.
Darwinian theory, of sorts.

SBowie
12-09-2013, 04:18 PM
Hmmm... Go by convincing UI design theory? Or ask the customers.... :) They aren't mutually exclusive. Go too far in either direction, you encounter problems. Believe me, we frequently have discussions that go far deeper than anything you're going to encounter here about these seemingly lesser items - and sometimes, we have them again and again. ;)

Ben Freedman
12-09-2013, 04:26 PM
I agree that these items are just 'seemingly' lesser. For many of us, these are daily issues.

Maybe go with the convincing UI theory for the big stuff, and listen to the customers for the seemingly lesser stuff... and err on the side of 'choice'... I don't think you're going to go wrong offering more choice to customers....especially with this highly technical bunch.

B.

SBowie
12-09-2013, 05:36 PM
For many of us, these are daily issues.Certainly small issues that happen a lot can be very annoying, and constitute a design issue. However, one might easily contend that this isn't one of those times.

Why? The function was removed quite some time ago and to the best of my knowledge almost no-one even noticed. In fact, I think this is the first time it has come up in the forums. By contrast, many immediately loved the functionality that supplanted it, and would be very reluctant to let it go. (Btw, Ben - you previously mentioned the monitor splitter matter in another thread: not to hijack this one, but I don't think I've seen a Fogbugz case on it yet. That would not be a preferences issue, it's just straightforward and unconflicted missing functionality.)

'Power' versus 'complexity' is a never-ending concern. Many volumes have been written on this topic by experts, but I'll not quote them here. Even so, there is probably no single thing that consumes nearly as much of our time and attention. At the end of the day, though, there comes a point where making every little detail a user preference becomes a spaghetti monster, and TriCaster becomes daunting, unreliable and difficult to both comprehend and support. Someone has to make those calls, and they will inevitably leave some number of users wishing an exception had been made for their pet preference. Comes with the territory ...

Ben Freedman
12-09-2013, 05:58 PM
I disagree. You can always have a 'beginner' mode if you don't want to expose the complexity to users who don't want it. Check out VLC, a wildly successful media player that does just that.

I also wouldn't make the mistake of assuming that because you haven't heard something here, in this relatively small group of users, that it isn't an issue.... and by your own words, posting something here doesn't mean it'll get looked at by someone in a position to make a change anyways...

Regarding the monitor splitter... In this post: http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?138120-Regain-lost-GUI-functionality-in-455-to-460-upgrade&p=1348691&highlight=#post1348691 you basically dismissed my argument, and by your argument, since there's not been a bunch of people complaining, it's not really an important issue.

Steve... You do a great job here, and I realize you have to be an apologist of sorts, but Peder's argument is not invalid because few have mentioned it, and nor is mine.

BTW: I have no clue what a Fogbugz is. Is that opening a CS case? Because I've had very mixed response from that in the past...

Anyways... forgive me if I don't reply to your next post. I will allow you to have the last word.

B.

kanep
12-09-2013, 07:18 PM
FogzBugs is for reporting bugs, it can also be used for feature requests. This information get to the people that need to see it (and believe me they do).

More info can be found here: http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?110229-Reporting-Bugs

I will tell you, give a clear explanation of WHAT you want. Also, explain WHY you want it.

As for my $.02. (And not to add fuel to the fire)

It didn't bother me that the clicking on the monitors to select sources went away. I never liked that workflow, but that's just me.

I did like the ability to move the bar left/right. I've not entered a FogzBugs case on it (I guess it didn't bother me that much), but if you think it should be back, tell us. That not a guarantee that it will be added back in, but you never know.

As for a basic/expert user selection. I really don't want to see TriCaster turn into that. Then you have features/commands that are hidden to some users and not others. I think the development team has done an amazing job on having everything available to you without having TriCaster run in this fashion. I'm sure we can all find something here and there that we would like different, but nothing at this point has convinced me that we need to start making the system run in different 'complexly' modes.

Ben Freedman
12-09-2013, 07:26 PM
Well, so much for the customer is always right... :)

B.

PIZAZZ
12-09-2013, 08:19 PM
Funny how both the things mentioned from Peder and Ben are both things I noticed recently. I never would of noticed the two things except they are both things I use fairly regularly. I just haven't been running a TriCaster personally for a while until recently. I also forgot to submit my observance to Fogbugz.

I go either way on the double click monitors selection. I for one have used the send to PGM double click action when I needed to get an input to air quickly. I found the new action frustrating when it didn't do what I expected but then after stepping back I like the double click for settings action too. I guess it wouldn't matter if double click for settings was there to start with, since the double click send to PGM was there first, I miss it.

How about a compromise... Double click with the left button for Input Selection and Double click with the right button for settings. Actually come to think of it, right click isn't used in that area at all I believe. So a single right click.... Or you could use a combination for settings like Rt, Lft, Lft, Rt, and throw in a Middle mouse click for good measure.

Ben Freedman
12-09-2013, 08:21 PM
No compromise necessary... Make it a preferences and let the user choose. Everyone is happy...

Sometimes the simplest answer is the best! :)

B.

SBowie
12-09-2013, 08:28 PM
Check out VLC, a wildly successful media player that does just that. If I suggest turning TriCaster into VLC, I'll be looking for work by the weekend. ;)


I also wouldn't make the mistake of assuming that because you haven't heard something here, in this relatively small group of users, that it isn't an issue.... Agreed - but also don't assume that's the sole sample. I've been here for a long time, used and sold the earlier, much more complex products, and probably meet and converse with about as many end users, and the resellers and support staff they deal with, as anyone either here or at NewTek ... certainly far more than most operators do.


In this post: http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?138120-Regain-lost-GUI-functionality-in-455-to-460-upgrade&p=1348691&highlight=#post1348691 you basically dismissed my argument, and by your argument, since there's not been a bunch of people complaining, it's not really an important issue.Actually, after considering your second post, I thought you made a pretty good point on something that had escaped my notice. (If I didn't suggest posting it to Fogbugz at the time, it's only because I've been a teensy bit busy.)


... I realize you have to be an apologist of sorts ....Actually, though someone with a different view will occasionally make that claim, it's not true. I not only don't have to be an apologist, NewTek wouldn't thank me for presuming to be one if I tried. If I honestly feel someone has a great point, and have time, I will openly say so ... disagree, same deal. I participate here now, as I did for many years before coming to work for NewTek, as a member - complete with my own honestly held views, which I occasionally express. I don't expect everyone to agree with my views all of the time, just as anyone else here would not be shocked if someone differs with theirs from time to time.


BTW: I have no clue what a Fogbugz is. Is that opening a CS case?No. I see Kane discussed this while I was typing, but you'll find a link to a post describing the use Fogbugz at the top of the Troubleshooting sub-forum. It has an option for marking a case as a feature request, too - but I'd post your monitor splitter thoughts as a bug if it were me.

PIZAZZ
12-09-2013, 08:32 PM
Actually Ben I would have to disagree with you on making it a preference. I can remember back to training people on the VT3, 4, 5 and the Preference panel was information overload for the mass majority of users. Many users didn't even know the panel was there for that matter. I kind of like the continuity of every TriCaster (of the same software revision) all have the same functionality. I know that is an area that NewTek has put a tremendous amount of work into. It drove me up the wall when I would go sit down to work on a client's VT and the Preferences were completely whacked from what I used normally. On TriCaster that doesn't happen.

All that said,

I sure wish they hadn't taken out the Slide the windows Horizontally function. I did use that quite a bit, too. :)

Ben Freedman
12-09-2013, 08:36 PM
Bug submitted:

https://fogbugz.newtek.com/default.asp?67426_9sfv703e

Best,

Ben

SBowie
12-10-2013, 08:23 AM
... the Preference panel was information overload for the mass majority of users. Many users didn't even know the panel was there for that matter.Agreed. Obscure utility might as well not exist.

I have often fought the opposite side of this fight too, and only capitulated relatively recently. Years back I was watching an early TriCaster demo at NAB. Tim Jenison sat down beside me; after a few minutes, he asked what I thought. I told him I really, really wanted to dismiss it as a 'toy', but grudgingly had to admit that it offered a surprisingly complete and professional feature set, and presented them in a much more accessible fashion than its predecessors - at surprisingly little expense in terms of really useful flexibility. I was really impressed by the thought and effort that had gone into simplifying such a powerful toolset - but didn't think it was 'for me'. My view has changed a lot over the intervening years.

To the extent possible, UI is good when it's 'obvious', requiring little or no explanation. Some things we do in this realm are complex, and require a little background in the subject to use. For those just starting out, it's important that manuals explain things like keying, different streaming strategies, alpha channels, etc.(Let's just pretend that they, or anyone really, does at least a little reading.) In a perfect world, though, someone already familiar with those things and standard cross platform input methods should be able to understand and use features and controls at a glance. Hiding them away, requiring that they hold Ctrl + Alt while right-clicking and facing Texas is egregious (ambiguous labels are almost as bad). Endless variability in hopes of pleasing everyone is another broad road leading to confusion. There are instances where user choices have to be allowed, no question. Letting these multiply without really compelling reasons can quickly choke a UI under an avalanche of small decisions.

I'd be the last to claim, however, that TriCaster's UI or its feature set had achieved some astral plane where neither could be improved ever again. People frequently peek into my office following the latest major release teeming with new features to say "I don't know how NewTek keeps doing this; I can't imagine what else anyone could ask for!", or words to that effect. Actually, though, we see plenty of room for improvement, and have often been toiling merrily away on the next round for months already by that time. And so we listen - a lot, in many settings, to a huge number of people.

(BTW, as of this moment, I see that case 67426 is assigned to me) ;)

pederw
12-10-2013, 01:39 PM
Wow, long thread. The reason I wanted the function was that itīs easier when you have many cameras to keep track of and you have to be quick to select the best one. Now you have to read or try several cameras in the preview to find the best angel. Visually I found it easier to see the best picture and click on it. Sometimes you are also short of space and do not want the controlboard.

pederw
12-10-2013, 02:31 PM
Now I've read the conversation and I must say that I agree with Ben to add extra feutures in Preferences. I always go to preferences when I would like to change the behavior of a program. And VLC is actually a good example. I often change settings in VLC depending on situation.

rally1
12-10-2013, 05:28 PM
I have caught myself looking foolish a couple times by trying to click on a shot to take it. For ego reasons alone they should restore the feature ;) .
I wouldn't say few people used it, I would say many people used it, just not very often, an important distinction. It was even in the tutorials.

SBowie
12-10-2013, 08:24 PM
It was even in the tutorials.I know. I put it there. ;)

Ben Freedman
12-10-2013, 09:54 PM
Gotta change your name to 'Last Word Steve' :)

B.

pederw
12-13-2013, 10:57 AM
Last question, if I as a user has feuture requests, should we suggest them in this forum or always take them to the FogzBugs?
Is both channels up for discussion on GUI/programming-meeting or just one channel?

SBowie
12-13-2013, 01:15 PM
there's no hard and fast rule. We probably use Fogbugz for bugs more than features, but that aside, my only observation is that the half-life of a feature request in Fogbugz that doesn't come at a really opportune time can be pretty short, whereas here it is a bit more 'persistent'.

pederw
12-13-2013, 01:22 PM
ok, thanks! Actually think that the forum is a better platform since pros & cons can be discussed.

joseburgos
12-22-2013, 10:22 PM
I personally like feature requests discussed here as it open my eyes to other users methods and workflows. For example we always use a control surface of some kind and would never think not to but that does not mean it cant be obviously used without one. Anyway I have nothing beneficial to add other than I personally try and find time to read them all as soon as they are posted :)

ttromp
12-24-2013, 08:36 PM
Count me in the group of users who miss the "click to preview" option. As a user who can't afford a CS the increased mouse functionality is very important to me and not having it is still frustrating. Once learned, that workflow is intuitive and smooth, and very visually logical.

matthias-web
01-17-2014, 08:39 PM
I am fully in favour of bringing back the "click to preview" and "double-click to go live" feature!
On Tricaster and 3Play.

There is no easier and more intuitive way to change preview and program...

Best regards,
Matthias

UnCommonGrafx
01-18-2014, 05:22 AM
I tell ya, this hit me this weekend as we take our 460 for a spin.
http://www.highschoolcube.com/event/clerc-classic-xiv-games-335229

I have caught myself attempting this very thing. A lot.
Can't say I want it back, though. Students have learned the new way. As someone new to TC in this form (Initially, I had the same opinion as Steve as to it being considered "toy-ish") but not new to the NT switchers, I am finding little to wont for. Though I mentally lament that "it's not working", the newness of the system, and smoothness of operation, I get over the 'need' to have it.

I do like Jef's idea of the double rt-click. Hidden but rightly available tools are cool, too.

SBowie
01-18-2014, 07:20 AM
I do like Jef's idea of the double rt-click. Hidden but rightly available tools are cool, too.Generally, though, 'hidden' tools only benefit the illuminati.

Keep in mind, too, that TriCaster provides many ways to switch other than by mouse-click. For example, for around $75 you can add a Novation Launchpad mini, which is extremely compact and yet provides enough buttons to directly select 24 sources on either program or preview rows. Or you can use the keyboard, an iPad, smart phone, what have you ...

pederw
04-04-2014, 07:07 AM
Since you sometimes need to be fast itīs easier to see the picture then using buttons as on the Novation Launchpad mini. Do not understand the resistance aginst implementing it. But now I know that it probarbly wont be implemented.