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hrgiger
12-06-2013, 06:09 PM
To Rob and LW3DG-

I just want to start out by saying that I love using LightWave. I've been using LightWave now for almost 14 years. Mainly as a hobbyist but in the last few years I've been able to do some freelance jobs as well as making some additional income with my presets for LWCAD. But its not what motivates me to open up LightWave or Zbrush every day. I do it because I'm fascinated by this type of technology, I have a background in and appreciation for the arts, and when I found 3D modeling and animation, it seemed like a natural fit for me. I think for anyone who has been around these forums for any of the last several years knows that I can be critical of LW at times and maybe some see that like I have some sort of axe to grind with LightWave or that I don't appreciate all the hard work that goes into its development. There is absolutely no truth to that. The truth is, I see no reason to sugarcoat when I see things about LightWave that could and should be improved. Sometimes, I'm met with the argument, "well if you don't like it, why don't you just go use Maya or Max or XSI". Honestly I have gone to use other apps. I went with XSI for a while until they killed its foundation version and Autodesk took over. I bought into Modo at version 401 and upgraded to 601 when it came out. And to be honest, I went to those apps with the intention that I might never return to using LW because those apps offered things like a unified workspace, high quality animation tools and very flexible workflows. But eventually I sold my license to Modo as well because even though there were some benefits that I could not get in LightWave, my comfort zone was easily in using LW. Some of it was familiarity with LW and having more experience sure, but part of it was that there are also great benefits in LW that you can't find in some other apps as well. Maybe I don't say that enough, but there are a lot of great things about LW that are worth preserving as development moves forward. That may seem obvious to some, but usually my vocalizations here are usually more focused on what LW needs rather then what it has.

But this post isnt' about me but I thought it important to mention that I have a real passion for 3D and for LightWave. Which leads me into the reason for this post. There are a lot of incredibly talented individuals in the LightWave community but more importantly, incredibly passionate people as well. Honestly in my time in using Modo or XSI have I gotten more help, more advice, more free resources/assets, more specific questions answered here in the LW community then anywhere else. A lot of people always say that working in LightWave is faster then working in other programs and I just don't usually buy into that. I think someone very familiar with another app would tell you there's no app to work in faster then the one they work in. But when someone from the LW community says that it has the best community, I think that's true. I know a few people who don't even use LightWave anymore who still lurk and even still post on the boards here regularly. Maybe its old habits die hard, or maybe its just a great place to spend time in. Maybe an outsider would view it differently, that's just been my impression. And its the community that I wanted to talk about.

So this whole thought that I had about this has been brewing for a while but kind of culminated tonight when having a discussion on Skype with other LW users and here it is: It seems to me LW3DG, that you are overlooking an incredibly valuable and FREE resource in the LW community. Now I'm not talking necessarily like a full collaborative effort which was attempted with CORE and was just overall a disaster. But I am talking about engaging us regularly in a focused way. Recently you sent out a poll asking about what was working in LW and what wasn't. And that's good. But the last time I remember taking a poll was during the LW8 series which I'm assuming led into the LW9 developments and possibly CORE as well. But here on the forums, usually the only time that developers or LW3DG staff step into a thread is either A) to close it B) when enough fuss is raised by users that you're attempting to put out that particular fire or C) to praise the benefits of LW or showcase a particular user of LW and his work. And while all those things may have merit in themselves, it does little to actually engage the LW community in actual dialogue.

One of the things that came up on Skype tonight was the Modo vs LightWave discussion currently going on here in the Community section. The question was, should the thread be closed because it was promoting the use of competing software which is against the rules here on the Newtek boards? My thought on the matter was, if there were more things to talk about currently going on in LightWave, then threads like that wouldn't be so prevalent and would be a lot less interesting to engage in. Most people here are LightWave users and most primarily LightWave users. We want to hear about what's going on in LightWave first and foremost. Sure, new developments in technology and 3D in general across the industry are always interesting. But nothing is more interesting then what's happening in the application that you currently are able to pop open right now on your computer.

Newtek has been burned in the past because they talked about developments in LightWave before they were ready and made what most users saw as 'promises' and when those didn't work out the way it was discussed, users got mad and accused NT of lying and breaking promises. So now, Rob's philosophy is that they won't talk about things before they are ready. And you know what, I totally get that and agree with it 100% (ok 98%). But that doesn't mean that we should go months without having some sort of dialogue with developers on the direction of the software. And I'm not talking roadmaps or feature lists or anything else that could be considered a 'promise'. I'm talking generalities like LW3DG saying OK, what if we did this, would that be useful to you or not? If not, what if we did this? How important would something like this be to you? For the last few years, I've participated in some webinars for 3DS Max where they show some mock ups, talk about things they might like to explore, possible features in the future. Mind you, I don't have any interest in buying Max but as I said before, I'm fascinated by the technology and if someone's going to talk about future developments, sure I'll listen. But in these webinars, they say none of this is definite, these are just possible directions they may go in, and they poll users on how useful all of those things would be for them. THAT is engaging users in a dialogue. I have a lot to fault Autodesk for, but that is certainly not one of them.

I dont' want to ramble on forever but I will just end with this- shortly after Siggraph this year, David Ikeda(LW and Chronosculpt developer) posted on the boards quite a lot for a few days. He discussed some of his processes in programming for LW, some of the challenges he faced and talked about possibilities. He answered a lot of users questions (and there were a lot of them). I won't speak for anyone else, but I truly appreciated David's contribution and it was very exciting to hear about some of the process involved in the development of LW. Some of the things he said were exciting, some of the things he said were a little discouraging- but to have that kind of open dialogue was amazingly refreshing and it made me feel good about using LW. Thank you David. Truly.

Of course, I don't expect you to just get the team on the boards and lay out all your diagrams, your roadmaps, everything you've scribbled on napkins, nothing of the sort. But maybe there's a balance to be had between no dialogue and some useful engagement from time to time. Just a thought.

OnlineRender
12-06-2013, 06:17 PM
Ragequit

hrgiger
12-06-2013, 06:20 PM
Haha Steph.

Sorry for the long read. It looked shorter when I wrote it.

djwaterman
12-06-2013, 11:02 PM
I kinda see where you're coming from however the user base will quickly jump on any bit of information and hypothesize or conjecture it all out of proportion, leading to uncontrolled myth making, as is what happened when David offered up a few insights about Chronosculpt. We do get LW3DG people popping into the forums quite a bit to speak to us, perhaps not as much as we'd like but they are not absent.

hrgiger
12-07-2013, 02:50 AM
Well and as I said DJ, its not information or even David's contributions that I'm necessarily referring to even though I mentioned him in my post. I'm talking about dialogue. Yes, occasionally LW3DG steps in to speak to us. But just look at the numerous discussions about modeling and the lack of development over the years. From the lack of addressing that point by LW3DG, it gives the impression that they have little interest in improving the modeling capabilities of LightWave. And yes, I know some new modeler tools were added in LW 11.5 which was a welcome addition after so much neglect for so long. But as many have pointed out there are issues with those tools and no fixes to be found in 11.6 update. All we hear is about the numerous benefits that LightWave brings us, but never do we hear or are engaged about the things that need addressed in LightWave and what might be the best ways to go about making them better.

SteveH
12-07-2013, 07:19 AM
Man I can't agree with you more hrgiger. I know the LW3DG are very hard at work - I have no doubt of that. But I would love to have them more involved in user base discussions. I too found David's series of emails very very informative. I'm pretty sure once he was found out talking to users he was marched out into a field and shot - but hey - it was informative while it lasted. One more request - might be a good idea for all Newtek employees to have in their avatar some logo that says they are NEWTEK. Some do some don't. If I was a potential user and saw lots of developer interaction I might get the idea they are very engaged with their user base which is a good thing. I guess that would only be a good thing IF there was a lot of LW3DG interaction of course!

zardoz
12-07-2013, 09:55 AM
I totally agree with you. I still didn't understand why they closed the David Ikeda thread. It was a breath of fresh air. They got people participating, and when you share some ideas with the developers and some time later you see it implemented you feel like you are part of this too.

I've used (and still use) other 3D apps, and I always end up doing stuff in lightwave. All my modelling is done in lightwave and we are talking about modeller, probably the most neglected part of lightwave. And I still love it over max or xsi.

It would be nice to get some kind of 'table tennis' game with the developers like the David Ikeda thread...I was opening that thread several times a day just to check if there was anything new. Some websites make money just from the visitors right? I think that having people come here to see what's new, what's going on it's really important.

cheers

cresshead
12-07-2013, 02:41 PM
let's see....how does other companies handle "communication":

Autodesk have their 'blogs' and sneak peek videos for stuff that's in the pipeline for the next major release.
The foundry/luxology have their weekly modcasts plus they have the direct access area for showing stuff in the pipe to their current users.
Pixologic have sneak peek videos and then post them in the zbrush central area for comments.

The lightwave group are pretty tight lipped..we get hardly a sniff of information which just really takes your eye off of lightwave
after a few months post the latest update...it's like it goes very dark!
...we get a newsletter but there's no news on development.

lightwave used to have a healthy beta forum area for lightwave 9.
the hardcore era got a bit messy and after that the communication just seems to have shut right down....we just wait for siggraph each year now
to find out if lightwave has made any progress...that's 9 months away currently.

lightwave development info is like a rare orchid...it blooms for 3 days a year at siggraph once a year!


other companies:
okay, even though we know a few things are in the pipe for say a new feature doesn't mean we get a say in how it's implemented..but we are a least 'in the loop'
to know it's arriving soon, however there are responses from the people at the company in the forums be they blog post replies from autodesk product managers
or "president of the americas" ... we get some feedback.

hrgiger
12-07-2013, 02:53 PM
The lightwave group are pretty tight lipped..we get hardly a sniff of information which just really takes your eye off of lightwave


I think that's a good way of putting it. When there is nothing to talk about concerning LightWave developments, then people come up with their own stuff. And that usually means either wild speculation about what must be going on in this 'dark' period or pointing to other exciting things going on in the industry. Hence the heavy involvement in threads like the LightWave vs. Modo one.

spherical
12-07-2013, 03:13 PM
Agreed. The "dark" is a knee-jerk reaction gone over the top and far too long. They got all miffed at users complaining about features that were being postulated by the devs and took their comments about possibilities as being "you can expect this down the line", when it was only possibilities. After enough complaints having: "you said...." in them, they closed completely off and we're in the state we're in. Of course the bashing they took on CORE didn't help the situation.

That said, it really is not the best development decision to completely ignore users and "We'll only announce new features when they are implemented." or words to that effect. There was a lot of good development happening when devs were in here interacting. The Dielectric we have today was forged and refined in that environment. Sure, with this many users, there are going to be X many complainers, some of whom will never be satisfied, and to a certain extent it will look as if no one appreciates the hard work being done. Complainers usually are the most vocal.

With 100 users, you'll get about 95 different ways to do something. This would be daunting and unpleasant for anyone. Still, I feel that the communication lines should re-open, so that this application can move forward and surpass others in the marketplace. Yeah, coding, like CGI, is done mostly in dark rooms but it doesn't have to be done in the dark.

cresshead
12-07-2013, 03:30 PM
i think if you stay too long out of the limelight...people can start to forget you still exist.

spherical
12-07-2013, 03:32 PM
An illustrator friend of mine has a quote: "If you're not currently published, you're dead."

Megalodon2.0
12-07-2013, 03:40 PM
Well said HR.

50one
12-07-2013, 03:41 PM
Agree with everything said here and I will repeat myself again
When it comes to marketing and development Newtek is still in the early 90's, times have changed and things needs to adjust, communication is the main factor, where there is lack of communication, there is lack of trust, where's laxk of trust, the users goes elsewhere where the communication exist...now guys please tell me, how many users you know someone from here that either switched to different software or just left this forum? Yes, I can see the the same old faces here and there and those are die hard fans, but the overall trend is not that great and I've seen many prominent users gone.

I'll see what lw12 brings...

cresshead
12-07-2013, 03:42 PM
An illustrator friend of mine has a quote: "If you're not currently published, you're dead."

yeh..pretty much..if your app is seen and talked about and looks to be moving forward then it's of constant interest....it's a bit like a static webpage
verses a news website...if you visit a few times and nothing looks new then..you start to wonder...is it still being developed?...or is it going the way of say silo, carrara etc.

cresshead
12-07-2013, 03:45 PM
An illustrator friend of mine has a quote: "If you're not currently published, you're dead."

yeh..pretty much..if your app is seen and talked about and looks to be moving forward then it's of constant interest....it's a bit like a static webpage
and a new website...if you visit a few times and nothing looks new then..you start to wonder...is it still being developed?...or is it going the way of say silo, carrara etc.


look at the lightwave 3d group news annoucements....

last post was in july 2013.

need i say more?

hrgiger
12-07-2013, 04:02 PM
As I said, I don't want people to misinterpret what I'm saying. I'm not talking about letting us see what's going on behind the scenes or laying out any specifics or eventuals. Sure, some open dialogue about improving LightWave would be great. I just think LW3DG could be engaging us more. What if they just came in and said ok, how would you guys as users achieve this shot or this effect in LightWave. That in itself could open up a dialogue about what things could be added or improved in LightWave to solve particular problems. But that's just one idea. Surely, there are many ways that they could engage the community. They're doing a holiday contest now on Facebook and that's good (unless you don't use Facebook that is).

bobakabob
12-07-2013, 04:22 PM
The LW3DG can't win... damned if they do and damned if they don't. They're clearly interested in consultation, communicating via questionnaires and monitoring the Forum wish lists but giving too much away risks speculation, disappointment and advantage to the competition.

cresshead
12-07-2013, 04:34 PM
they can do great promoting of lw...siggraph is proof of that...we'd just like to see a bit more communication here.

bobakabob
12-07-2013, 04:50 PM
Pixologic are pretty tight lipped about the future and hardly surprising considering 3d coat, Mudbox and Cinema 4d chasing their tails. NewTek got their fingers burned when they opened up development to the community with C**e so it's perfectly understandable they now don't want to banter about work in progress that could fire up the competition when they're actually making progress and innovating.

hrgiger
12-07-2013, 05:09 PM
Pixologic are pretty tight lipped about the future and hardly surprising considering 3d coat, Mudbox and Cinema 4d chasing their tails. NewTek got their fingers burned when they opened up development to the community with C**e so it's perfectly understandable they now don't want to banter about work in progress that could fire up the competition when they're actually making progress and innovating.

Except a lot of the work that LW3DG has to do is not going to be seen as innovative (but still necessary). Modelling tools in layout for camera matching or corrective morphs, speeding up geometry handling, maybe fast and robust subdivision surfaces, things that every app out there already has.

But again, if you think im asking LW3DG to divulge secrets or lay out any plans, then you just didnt read my post.

cresshead
12-07-2013, 07:45 PM
Come on Lightwave 3d Group!
drop by, say hiya...we won't bite...okay we might nibble a little!

would be cool to here what's happening in general around the world of Lightwave

bazsa73
12-08-2013, 12:51 AM
Robertotiz sometimes fires up a thread about how would you do this or that in LW, and when he does so folks starts whinniing "yeah but not but yeah but no"

bobakabob
12-08-2013, 02:20 AM
I miss the old days where Proton would contribute modelling and rendering tips, techniques and tutorials, revealing the full potential of LW that many users overlook. This surely wouldn't go amiss. Perhaps LW3DG could appoint a new LW Evangelist. Those developer insights on LW work in progress were truly fascinating to read but it's not surprising they were taken down as it's risky for a company to reveal too much about road maps. Like Cresshead I'd love to know more about future plans but even a few crumbs can whip up endless speculation and at its worst wailing and gnashing of teeth. Look what happened with Shave years ago - were it not for this kind of behaviour with users openly berating a quite brilliant developer we'd probably still have access to this great plugin. The culture's changed mainly for the better. I don't miss those awful 'LW is dead' flame wars where people using Maya, Max and C4D would obsessively bash the underdog under the pretence they were being constructive (not to detract from brilliant software experts out there who genuinely know what they're talking about and contribute real debate about LW pros and cons). So for all the frustrations maybe no news is good news.

Bytehawk
12-08-2013, 03:32 AM
Just want to drop by and say Ditto...

jwiede
12-08-2013, 04:07 AM
Like Cresshead I'd love to know more about future plans but even a few crumbs can whip up endless speculation and at its worst wailing and gnashing of teeth.

:rolleyes: Most of the wailing and gnashing of teeth came from the anti-CORE crowd, most of whom are still present, never pass up a chance to gloat about how bad an idea CORE was, and usually follow with statements that "CORE should be left in the past" directed at any who disagree with them.

Oedo 808
12-08-2013, 04:22 AM
:rolleyes: Most of the wailing and gnashing of teeth came from the anti-CORE crowd, most of whom are still present, never pass up a chance to gloat about how bad an idea CORE was, and usually follow with statements that "CORE should be left in the past" directed at any who disagree.

Usually spurred on by pointless bleating about Core, again, and again, and again.

Hey, did you know that if Core had fulfilled it's promise it would have been really good? I don't know what I've achieved by saying it but I just thought it needed mentioning, again.

bobakabob
12-08-2013, 04:56 AM
Hey, did you know that if Core had fulfilled it's promise it would have been really good? I don't know what I've achieved by saying it but I just thought it needed mentioning, again.

No doubt about it, Core's cancellation was very disappointing. But sadly the experiment of opening up development plans to the community didn't seem to go well with pro and anti core groups at loggerheads. Jwiede's pop at the anti Core fraternity kind of proves this point. It can't have helped the project by generating waves of negativity and confusion about the future of LW. Combined with the realities of keeping the business viable in a ruthless marketplace. So it makes sense why LW3DG are keeping a lid on future developments moving from one extreme to the other.

Oedo 808
12-08-2013, 05:09 AM
It was disappointing, it just wasn't entirely unexpected for me. Maybe I'm alone in this but I don't think the 'experiment' ever really took off in the first place, there was plenty of chat about what we would like to see having carte blanche, but I don't recall any real engagement other than it being more than nil.

Perhaps a tenuous link but given the use of Fogbugz I can't help my spidey senses wondering if it wasn't based off of Joel Spolsky's sense-of-ownership crap, but it never seemed to be fully embraced by the team. In many ways I don't blame them, hardly the same thing not having been a developer but I have avoided contact with the public in past jobs to the detriment of the customer, but to the benefit of myself not having to deal with plebs.

Waves of light
12-08-2013, 06:17 AM
No doubt about it, Core's cancellation was very disappointing. But sadly the experiment of opening up development plans to the community didn't seem to go well with pro and anti core groups at loggerheads. Jwiede's pop at the anti Core fraternity kind of proves this point. It can't have helped the project by generating waves of negativity and confusion about the future of LW. Combined with the realities of keeping the business viable in a ruthless marketplace. So it makes sense why LW3DG are keeping a lid on future developments moving from one extreme to the other.

And that's the nail on the head right there. Rob is not going to allow that to happen again. I totally agree that David's post were refreshing, openly talking about what he was working on, his thoughts on development (which were not necessarily the thoughts of the LW3DG), why that can't be done and what would be needed for that to be implemented. But LW3DG had to be careful and step in to protect its assets, you can't in this volatile market give too much away to competitors. As Lino stated 'No one got in trouble. But that's not the way communication should work. Especially if users start making wrong assumptions or digging the past (that always leads nowhere). I think that what David said was very positive. But it was inviting everyone to speculate a little too much. We're a company, we have strategies. That's why I deleted the thread. ;)'

As for seeing the face of LW3DG more on the forums, I have to say I've certainly seen an increase in their involvement on this site. Matt, Lino, Ben and others have all been posting more. I agree it would be nice to have them all tagged as 'LW3DG admin' etc. but I do believe it's in their sigs. Even Rob has been more visible, with responses you wouldn't expect directly from the leader (kinect thread, packaging problems for shipped LW products, etc). Here's one example where he was asking what 'the main features that you would like to see added or improved?' re. UV mapping functions inside LW:
http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?137013-Vintage-aircraft-and-hangar

which spawned this thread:
http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?137122-Feature-request-How-would-you-like-UV-mapping-to-work-inside-LW

I suppose this shows that there is 'development' and that the team are taking notes and listening to us, but yes, it would be good to have this acknowledged, maybe with little updates that don't cause too much speculation and doesn't give too much away.

On a side note, since the creation of LW3DG, the marketing of Lightwave has advanced significantly, in my opinion. The new site, the newsletters, videos and the brand in general is looking very professional.

jasonwestmas
12-08-2013, 06:28 AM
I kinda see where you're coming from however the user base will quickly jump on any bit of information and hypothesize or conjecture it all out of proportion, leading to uncontrolled myth making, as is what happened when David offered up a few insights about Chronosculpt.

I don't agree with that at all but thanks for your input. On the contrary David boosted a lot of spirits around here with some firm foundational thinking. I know his words aren't gospel.

hrgiger
12-08-2013, 06:40 AM
In a sense, I didnt have a specific goal in mind when i started the thread. As ive said more then a few times now, Im not asking LW3DG to reveal any secrets or lay out any plans they have in mind. Thats not the point. I mentioned David Ikeda not because he revealed things about LightWave or Chronosculpt or whatever, but rather that there was an actual dialogue between him and users. I mentioned the example of Autodesk doing webinars talking about possible directions in the future. Brad Peebler does podcasts and most of the ones Ive listened to dont even talk about developments in Modo. Sometimes he might just address something that users are talking about on the boards. Im just suggesting LW3DG make a better effort to engage us somehow.

Concerning CORE, that ship has sailed so no sense arguing about it now. But having said that, I think it has tested the patience of a lot of LW users and left wondering how things will be handled better in the future. Rob said the destination is still the same even if the delivery vehicle is different but weve gotten no indication to know just how accurate that is. And i think going months of silence with no indication that these improvements are coming to LW just further frustrates users. When Rob gives a presentation on LightWave he talks about the tremendous benefits of LightWave yet rarely if ever does he mention just how aware they are of the limitations of LightWave and how committed they are to overcoming them. Im sure someone will jump on this and say that you have to talk that way to sell a product. I just disagree with that. i think it shows a lot more character to admit your shortcomings while displaying confidence that you can overcome them.

jasonwestmas
12-08-2013, 06:55 AM
A lot of great points HR. Very true, very true. I'll add that AD also has a board in which people vote for things to be either, less annoying, fixed or added to their products.


As far as communication goes between LW3DG and the passionate user base. Yes things do need to be spelled out as not promises but merely considerations and general directions. That would help users keep their eyes on the ball without feeling cheated later. Also the quality of communication is what make all conversations great and bring assumptions to a minimum. . . . and making key points known and organized in the forum stickies perhaps. A weekly video perhaps. Something the community can depend on and look forward to.

Otherwise yes there are faaaaar more interesting places to look and go to than on the NT boards. Why waste all this passion here, agreed.

There is a lot of great instruction out there for other applications but it certainly costs money! These forums are a great free resource and I deeply enjoy the conversations as you can see by my post count.

Triodin
12-08-2013, 10:42 AM
Otherwise yes there are faaaaar more interesting places to look and go to than on the NT boards. Why waste all this passion here, agreed.


I've found it rather difficult to find other Lightwave specific communities - if you wouldn't mind could you share links to some of your favorites, Jason?

jasonwestmas
12-08-2013, 12:06 PM
I've found it rather difficult to find other Lightwave specific communities - if you wouldn't mind could you share links to some of your favorites, Jason?

Hi Trodin, I should've been more specific with my meaning there. What I really mean is that there are much more interesting places to talk about software development for the sake of 3D graphics and any artistic endeavors. . . although I do mention how LW can be used here and there when it makes sense to. When I speak up I'm usually thinking about multiple applications and how they compete and also work with each other and how that can be improved.

If you have found this forum then I think you have found one of the best forums to talk about how to use Lightwave in general. I'm primarily a Maya, and Lightwave guy these days for animation, rendering and games work; But I doubt you can find a "Maya/ Lightwave" community outside the studio scenario. I visit CG Hub, CGFeedback, Lightwiki, SetupTab, The Area, ChaosGroup, Allegorithmic, Pixologic, etc.

For software rendering talk, I like Chaos Group forums especially, the programmers will talk with you when you have problems and they like to know your workflows. . . and they have nightly betas you and anyone can test.

hrgiger
12-08-2013, 12:12 PM
I've found it rather difficult to find other Lightwave specific communities - if you wouldn't mind could you share links to some of your favorites, Jason?

i could be wrong but i think Jason was referring to things not related to LightWave. But if you want a few more places for things LightWave, I would recommed joining LightWave 3D's facebook page. Also the LightWave Wiki page on facebook. There is also chat going on everyday on Skype. I cant remember but you might need to get an invitation to join that.

Triodin
12-08-2013, 02:16 PM
Very Cool - I'll need to check those groups out. Thanks guys!

I really like where LW is going, I think we're finally getting back on track with consistent message and brand since Mr Powers stepped in. I agree that having some sort of constant/weekly dialogue would help keep LW front and center for top of mind awareness of what it's strengths are and addressing any weaknesses.

I will say I'm a big fan of the online magazine - I think it's really put together well.

I also agree that it was pretty awesome when Proton was making tutorial videos on what felt like a consistent basis.

Everyone is spot on with the passion of the community - my hat's off to a few of my favorite community members that have been going above and beyond on youtube (in no particular order)

dwburman - http://www.youtube.com/user/dwburman
erikalst - http://www.youtube.com/user/erikalst
rebelhill - http://www.youtube.com/user/RHLW
chazriker - http://www.youtube.com/user/tndStudios

Kuzey
12-08-2013, 03:24 PM
There is also chat going on everyday on Skype. I cant remember but you might need to get an invitation to join that.

I was thinking about this skype thingy...how many is there on average & is it all typing or talking?

hrgiger
12-08-2013, 03:48 PM
I was thinking about this skype thingy...how many is there on average & is it all typing or talking?

There are a good amount of people on there but it varies from day to day. There are usually only a small handful on at a time. Since a lot of users are across the pond, there are time differences to consider and all that. I've seen Lino and Matt on as well occasionally. Its all typing as far as I'm aware. Occasionally I talk to Viktor Velicko on Skype when it has to do with LWCAD or presets but normally I'm just chatting via type.

OnlineRender
12-09-2013, 02:33 AM
I was thinking about this skype thingy...how many is there on average & is it all typing or talking?

sometimes it's chaotic but generally it ticks along nicely but you need to contend with my dodgy spelling

meshpig
12-09-2013, 03:02 AM
I think this is an aesthetic problem. A problem for Aesthetics in the Modern sense of the word...

Kuzey
12-09-2013, 03:59 AM
Soooooooo...how does one get in :)

OnlineRender
12-09-2013, 04:35 AM
Soooooooo...how does one get in :)

add me to your contacts "onlinerender" ill fire you in

Waves of light
12-09-2013, 04:39 AM
Sounds cool. I've sent you one too, if that's ok?

chikega
12-11-2013, 09:38 AM
As the old saying goes "If you ignore something long enough .. it will go away". This applies to plants, pets, spouses, fan base, etc...

hrgiger
12-11-2013, 11:11 AM
As the old saying goes "If you ignore something long enough .. it will go away". This applies to plants, pets, spouses, fan base, etc...

i wouldnt go so far as to say we are being ignored. I'm sure theyre working hard at developing LightWave and associated technologies for their userbase. maybe they dont think that engaging us or having any dialogue is necessary. My post wasnt intended to be a complaint or a rant and LW3DG is free to ignore it, not going to make a stink about it. I was just hoping to reflect some of the feelings I see a lot among some of the other LWers I talk to on whether or not sufficient improvements are happening with LightWave. It feels to me that morale is low among some of the userbase, I see a lot of negative threads lately about LightWave perception in the industry, and I wish that we could somehow work with LW3DG to change that. But whatever.

digitaldoc
12-11-2013, 11:21 AM
The David Ikeda postings did more to bolster my confidence in the future of LW than any other presentations or limited previews of LW related software. Probably by 100-fold.
I hope he is not gagged in a backroom somewhere in Burbank.

jeric_synergy
12-11-2013, 11:43 AM
1) Rob was right to assert control over corporate communications, but 'radio silence' is not COMMUNICATIONS. Quarterly info-dumps would allow LW3DG to control expectations and rumors, and not alienate/disenfranchise the community by year-long abscences. If MODO can manage something WEEKLY, surely LW3DG can do something every 3 months-- and they get SIGGRAPH for free, so that's only 3 more communications a year.

2) The LW community is a huge but neglected asset. Anything that leverages that community is to Lightwave's benefit.

3) IMO there needs to be a staffer who is both Lightwave knowledgable and tasked with keeping his/her finger on the pulse of both forum and industry buzz, but NOT someone who gets flustered, railroaded, or bamboozled easily. A bit of an ombudsman or "user representative" who has both the user's concerns AND the reality of the LW3DG's resources and strategy in mind.

3b) and in my scenario, this staffer also manages the online dox and adds to those bits of the documentation that don't currently cover completely LW features, or that just don't 'connect' with the users, and add links to videos and explanations out there on the web.

4) I find Celshader's presentations to be among the most helpful of official LW3DG presentations. More along those lines, please.

jeric_synergy
12-11-2013, 11:48 AM
:rolleyes: Most of the wailing and gnashing of teeth came from the anti-CORE crowd, most of whom are still present, never pass up a chance to gloat about how bad an idea CORE was, and usually follow with statements that "CORE should be left in the past" directed at any who disagree with them.
Considering that two of the loudest were Larry Schultz and Kat Myers, I'm pretty sure that abandoning CORE was the absolutely proper thing to do.

jeric_synergy
12-11-2013, 11:54 AM
We're a company, we have strategies. That's why I deleted the thread. ;)'

As for seeing the face of LW3DG more on the forums, I have to say I've certainly seen an increase in their involvement on this site. Matt, Lino, Ben and others have all been posting more. I agree it would be nice to have them all tagged as 'LW3DG admin' etc. but I do believe it's in their sigs.
Wait, are YOU, Waves of Light, in the LW3DG??? 'Cuz it's not in your sig that I see.

Ztreem
12-11-2013, 02:11 PM
A bit of an ombudsman or "user representative" who has both the user's concerns AND the reality of the LW3DG's resources and strategy in mind.


OT. I got a chock reading a swedish word in your sentence, didn't know it was used in the english language.
So we can use both smorgasbord and ombudsman, good to know. ;-)

saranine
12-11-2013, 03:28 PM
Here in Australia we have an "Ombudsman" for all areas of consumer complaint. For instance a month ago I used the internet ombudsman to get action over my slow internet. Note that the "man" part of the word does not refer to a gender; the ombudsman can be male or female as in the word "manager".

hrgiger
12-11-2013, 04:14 PM
Considering that two of the loudest were Larry Schultz and Kat Myers, I'm pretty sure that abandoning CORE was the absolutely proper thing to do.

Its all a moot point anyway Eric. That is the past. The only reason that I 'bang away' on CORE or however you phrased it before is not to lament the killing of that particular application, but merely to point out that we've seen no indication since that time that we are headed to the same destination as Rob phrased it. LW11 has been a great release and the hard work the team put in shows. But, at least on the surface, we're no closer to the benefits of a unified workflow. But if LW3DG feel they can bring us the same benefits, then it matters little to me how they get there. CORE was one possible direction to a more modern LightWave and it was the idea of that I supported.

As far as whether it was the proper thing to do, I can't say. Nor do I think Larry's or Kats feelings give any more validation to a proper outcome in that case. But I'm not interested in debating the subject. CORE is like so yesterday and I don't care why it was killed or who was responsible or how anyone feels about it.

Matt
12-11-2013, 04:25 PM
To Rob and LW3DG

Thanks for sharing Steve, FYI, I passed this on to make sure it has been seen.

jeric_synergy
12-11-2013, 04:41 PM
I thought the point of this thread was to encourage greater communication between LW3DG and the user base. Something between an unmediated and problematical exchange and the current news blackout.

As I said upthread, some well-vetted bones thrown to us quarterly would be great. I certainly understand why R.P. et al would be wary of uncontrolled statements getting out there, for a variety of reasons, but think that it's hurting the community feeling that is a big though intangible asset to the Lightwave brand.

For ONE thing: i think a lot of the potential of various existing features of LW go long-overlooked by the customers-- look how Chazriker has fueled up people over IKB again. Making sure that users understand what CAN already be done with existing features, like Celshader's recent outline of Spline Control use, would satisfy the community hunger for official communications without potentially tipping off competitors to future directions (although I'm suspicious of how much advantage that is anyhow).

hrgiger
12-11-2013, 04:53 PM
Thanks for sharing Steve, FYI, I passed this on to make sure it has been seen.

I appreciate that Matt. I hope its clear what I intended. I'm not asking for secrets, roadmaps or for LW3DG to layout their plans. I just feel that lately, there is a lot of negativity surrounding LW lately and despite the disaster that the internal beta forums were, I still feel there is merit in some type of collaborative dialogue that could be beneficial to both parties. All I intended.

LW_Will
12-13-2013, 03:28 PM
Remember, we in the San Diego Users' Group have been trying to get THE World-wide Lightwave Users' Group together and off the ground. Using a web-based seminar, we've had presentations with Ryan Roye, Andrew Combs, Kat Myers and even Ken Nigh from LWG. In the future, we want to do more much, much more. But, unfortunately, Real LifeTM is getting in the way. :)

Currently, we are using Adobe Connect for that web seminar software, but we may be adding Google Hangouts to the mix. The meetings are always totally free with video versions available from our website at www.lightwaveusers.com.

In the future, we want to add presentations with NevronMotion and ChronoSculpt. Maybe we will be covering a point or practice using Lightwave or another program or plug-in.

So we hope to add to the conversation in the coming year. I'd like to also add a blanket invitation to Rob, Lino, Matt, Mike or any other person from the crew at the Lightwave Group to come in and talk with us. Or, if you are someone with something you feel you could teach the community, please drop us a line as well. Send an email to me at [email protected] and we will set you up.

Happy Holidays to everyone...

hrgiger
12-21-2013, 07:00 AM
just got a new survey from LW3DG in email this morning. This one seems to be asking questions about rendering, compositing, and third party tools and external apps you might use. Just want to say I appreciate LW3DG asking the userbase for input and thats one of the reasons I started this thread to begin with. Hope they will make the surveys and other types of communication more regular.

pinkmouse
12-21-2013, 08:09 AM
Indeed, and it would be a nice start if they published the results of the surveys.

50one
12-21-2013, 08:41 AM
Indeed, and it would be a nice start if they published the results of the surveys.



Would be awesome to receive any emails...email adress correct, preferences OK, still not getting any emails..

hrgiger
12-21-2013, 09:20 AM
Indeed, and it would be a nice start if they published the results of the surveys.

i dont know, i suppose that would be interesting but i dont think necessary. it just nice to think they are keeping some tabs on just how people are using LightWave and what people need out of it.

I suppose if you were curious you could always start a poll and ask similar questions here on the forum.

Lewis
12-21-2013, 09:28 AM
Yes i agree it's nice to see they are keeping track of current users and their habits fo using LW, well done LWG3D.
BUI i think it's also important to know how would LWavers WANT to use LW in future 'coz many left LW for using other apps and they probably had good reasons or couldn't do something in LW they wanted to do so they had to switch. So although it's important to keep you current userbase it's very important to get new users on board and bring back some of who left to other apps also :).

Oedo 808
12-21-2013, 09:44 AM
Yes i agree it's nice to see they are keeping track of current users and their habits fo using LW, well done LWG3D.
BUI i think it's also important to know how would LWavers WANT to use LW in future 'coz many left LW for using other apps and they probably had good reasons or couldn't do something in LW they wanted to do so they had to switch. So although it's important to keep you current userbase it's very important to get new users on board and bring back some of who left to other apps also :).

I would tend to agree, but this is one of my fears about LW development, however unjustified it may be. But going to LW friendly studio and asking "Why do you use LightWave?" is going to be more warm and cuddly than going to somewhere that's moved on and asking them "Why aren't you using LightWave?"

jeric_synergy
12-21-2013, 10:18 AM
Yeah, knowing why someone QUIT, that would be valuable. :thumbsup:

*because tone is ambiguous in text, I'm very much agreeing here.

Thomas Helzle
12-21-2013, 11:13 AM
Interesting.

I think I agree with the general sentiment here but may have a slightly different view on things.

I too was one of the people who had the luck to see the original David Ikeda posts and for me it was one of the most encouraging readings for years when it comes to Lightwave.

After reading what David had to say about a new Modeller Core, I was more confident that I may live to see a usable Modeller as I was ever before. Until then I'll happily model in XSI, MoI or whatever does the job.

Since he was used as an example: As good as Proton was in showing helpful things, he also had a big part in making Lighwave look amateurish to the pros. If I never see another of those comic figures again it's one too many. It's okay to show such stuff every now and then, but not all the time, otherwise people start to think LW is as primitive as the examples. I know he's kind of cult around here and I don't want to diminish what he did on the educational side, but it certainly wasn't helpful when showing real pros what LW can do.

That changed a LOT lately and I actually started to point colleagues to the Lightwave pages again with confidence. I love the visual side of communications now since they finally fit the industry we're in. That wasn't the case for a long time.

What I still don't do is recommending LW to others. Until there is a new modeller, I just can't imagine somebody who didn't "grow up with it" being able to enjoy this now ancient way of modelling and all the problems, bugs and confusions.

And since this came up as well: I personally think that the endless stream of "what do you think LW should change in this or that regard" threads from a certain, possibly bored-to-death individual actually did a lot to poison the community like a continuously festering thorn in the flesh...
If LW does need something, it's truth, clear communication and most of all action and hard work and a clear vision from the developers.
There is absolutely nothing that can be achieved by more fruitless discussions about some pipedream or other.

Because even the most fantastic communication can't solve some basic problems in the software.

So in my view there will still be some drought to go through until something really fresh may see the light.
Core in a way was the culmination of LWs dark ages and thankfully the idiotic bubble burst.
I can see very positive signs and developments since Rob took over, but it's far from being enough to really convince people and studios to switch back if they aren't very specific in their needs or have LW roots already.

Until there are some REAL news, what they can do is mostly holding up the flag, show off the renderer and VPR (which are really good) and somehow keep things going as best as possible. Trying to survive.

In light of that: I personally would recommend more communication like what David gave us. Realistic views on what will be a complicated process that will take a long time.
The real pros I had the pleasure to work with don't ******** around.
They give and want facts.
And even the slowest LW user may have understood by now that not everything is perfect - so why not be honest about it?

Sorry that this grew large and a bit ranty - seems I still get emotional over this software I once loved so much... ;-)

Cheers,

Tom

allabulle
12-21-2013, 11:29 AM
The David Ikeda postings did more to bolster my confidence in the future of LW than any other presentations or limited previews of LW related software. Probably by 100-fold.
I hope he is not gagged in a backroom somewhere in Burbank.

Exactly!

allabulle
12-21-2013, 12:32 PM
Like Thomas Halzle I prefer them to work at least eight hours a day until we're there.

If they are working on the architectural evolution of the software while adding value to the existing one we better wait and see.

When they have something new that works only then is the time to show it, once it's tested by them and the implementation is proven. But stop feeding speculation, please. We can't really improve much their knowledge of what's still wrong with our LightWave, what is lacking and what needs to be done about it. The LW3DG must know all that already. They say they have a close beta test group. I figure they give input to the LW3DG on all of that too. And everyone knows other softwares and use them too, so they are not helplessly coding and designing in the dark.

Even in this state of things they seem to be quite capable of surprising us with NEW things that are pretty useful not only to us, but even to the general 3D market. And they keep on improving the existing tool set, adding long awaited refinements, tools and to some extent work-flows.

Once they are not tied anymore to go forward as they please then, then!, will be the time to ask, suggest, question, inspire... Now it will distract them to the task at hand; and surely give impatience and puzzlement to everyone else because we need too much, and we need it now, yesterday. What can and can't be done, and to what extent it's not easy to communicate. What 'in progress' means and how will it evolve while all is changing is impossible to explain in this conditions.

We are still here, so we know what we can do with LightWave, and we even learn new ways and techniques.

Maybe, from time to time, some interaction would be good. But I don't want many specifics about anything. When they can, they won't be able to hold something up anymore. When it's time.

I'm confident they can pull it off. Every new step ahead they do seems to be in the right direction. Every new member of the LW3DG immediately felt obviously needed and well chosen. Let's see how they do the things they haven't done yet with confidence (and with or without skepticism). Some seem little steps and others quite impressive, but all of them well executed, in general. No pseudo-info to cheer us will help a bit in that regard.

And probably me saying all of this neither, so I apologize for the abuse (and my English). :)

I enjoy the communication they provide. And I think this community is great and with potential. I only doubt it's the LW3DG job to exploit that potential at this stage. Not now. Maybe we should do something on our own, like the Users Groups and other initiatives. I'll gladly concede if I'm wrong, though. I'd really like to be wrong here.

Enough for now. :)

Snosrap
12-21-2013, 12:38 PM
Yes i agree it's nice to see they are keeping track of current users and their habits fo using LW, well done LWG3D.
BUI i think it's also important to know how would LWavers WANT to use LW in future 'coz many left LW for using other apps and they probably had good reasons or couldn't do something in LW they wanted to do so they had to switch. So although it's important to keep you current userbase it's very important to get new users on board and bring back some of who left to other apps also :).

The questions this month seemed considerably deeper with a lot of "What else are you using" questions. So maybe by seeing that a lot of other plugins and tools are being used by their users they will see their shortcomings as well.

hrgiger
12-21-2013, 12:50 PM
@Thomas Helzle- I pretty much agree with much of your thoughts and thanks for sharing. I think we're pretty much on the same page.

And absolutely Lewis. I think it would be great if LW3DG reached out to some artists who have left LightWave and ask them what changes need to be made to LightWave that might have prevented them from leaving. One of my friends Paul Smith (Pooby) is one of those artists. He left for XSI aand for a while even still used LightWave for rendering and that changed when he switched to the Arnold renderer. He tried to make a lot of suggestions for LightWave but felt ultimately that they ignored his input.

Lewis
12-21-2013, 01:24 PM
I enjoy the communication they provide. And I think this community is great and with potential. I only doubt it's the LW3DG job to exploit that potential at this stage. Not now. Maybe we should do something on our own, like the Users Groups and other initiatives. I'll gladly concede if I'm wrong, though. I'd really like to be wrong here.

Enough for now. :)

Hmm, i'll just ask this for now: WHAT communication do you enjoy exactly? I don't see them communicating very often or at all for most part :)? Maybe you are reading some other forums (can you show us that communication links?) that we aren't, but this topic is exactly about LACK of communication :).

allabulle
12-21-2013, 01:54 PM
I understand what you mean, Lewis. I'd like more communication, and insight on what's going on. However I don't think at this point in time there's that much they can say to us that they're not saying already. If they could they probably would.

So I enjoy what they communicate. Or if you want, the little they communicate. And I don't expect what's not said.

I'd like to know more, to foresee what I may do in the future regarding LightWave, but I understand that's not going to happen like I'd like it to. And I think I understand why. I'm not defending silence, I'm stating my preference about the communication's content, the information regarding development: if no real or useful information can be given, so be it. If that changes, of course, please inform us daily. I'm not so sure that they really fear us, or that they don't get how important communicating to the user base is. Like the new LightWave development, communication with us will evolve too as things progress.

And I seriously doubt anyone would stop using LightWave because is being ignored by the developers. Even if the feeling is real and founded. If the tools needed are there, they are; if they don't... well. But that's another matter completely.

So, what I want to say is that given the circumstances I don't think more communication would improve what's at stake here. And we may do well without weak pseudo-information about what's happening, and not that better with some reassurance here and there. I understand why can it be frustrating, but we'll manage, for a while at least. No communication will deliver if the development stalls or dies. The moment when that's so, providing the LW3DG don't quit, depends on what any specific user needs at that point, not what he's been told. Can I still use LightWave or not is the thing.

I fear I may appear dismissive of some of your concerns instead of expositive of my views on the subject, so I will live it at that.

brent3d
12-22-2013, 10:10 AM
Using XSi just for modeling? Autodesk sells XSi for $3145, I'm curios how LW can be compared to a software or softwares that costs twice as much? Now of course if you or your studio have the budget to just get seats of software that cost twice as much but only for a specific task, then I guess the argument can be made. For a software within it's price range, LW has pushed forward throughout the years while keeping the price range low and I think that should be respected.

Thomas Helzle
12-22-2013, 10:33 AM
I got into XSI when there was the Foundation version for something like 400$ with full modelling.
Over time I updated to the middle version when there was a sale and when Autodesk took over and killed the versions, got updated to the network version without my doing.
I'd never buy it at the full price.
I stopped paying maintenance some years ago when it became clear that under Autodesk it will stagnate in the areas I'm using.
So yes, I use my version 2012 full license mostly for modelling these days since I'm neither too hot on Mental Ray nor do I use many of the other features.
Totally idiotic in a way but as long as it works at least I get some mileage out of it - I spent a lot on it over the years... ;-)
That's the backstory.

And no, I don't compare XSI to Lightwave, that would be totally unfair as you say.
But if modeller is rewritten, the one role model I personally would chose is XSI when it comes to logic, versatility of commands and clever usage of shortcuts.
When I first tried out Foundation I was sold and solid in modelling within two hours. Many other areas of XSI aren't that classy or logical and took me much longer to master but whoever initially did the modelling part was a genius.

But it doesn't matter much what you compare modeller to, it fails (in my personal book of course, YMMV) when it comes to modern unified tools, speed, clarity and features that actually work (like Catmul Clark SSDs/edge weighting).

And I'm not bashing modeller for the sake of it, just saying that I personally find it a pain to work with in this day and age, so I don't. ;-)

Compare it to Silo if you want fair.

Cheers,

Tom

brent3d
12-22-2013, 10:55 AM
Gotcha Tom, the modeling solution you seek resides in Modo. It is the evolution of Lightwave's modeler system and utilizes some of the best attributes of XSi, Maya, and LW, check out a few of my Youtube vids to see my point. I totally agree with your previous comments, just from a studio or individual standpoint cost is usually factor. Actually Modo gives hope to those who look for a better LW Modeler, cause it shows the possibilities of LW's system.... now they just need to implement some of it in 12 ...lol.


Brent

Thomas Helzle
12-22-2013, 11:28 AM
Well, sorry to disagree there: I watched modo since it's initial release but was never quite convinced of it's workflow, too much of it showed the old limited imagination of the original developers when it comes to modelling.
When I stopped relying mainly on XSI I actually bought 601 when it came out and at first I really liked many things about it.
But after a while I found more and more things that simply don't work as advertised (networkrendering never worked here, render booleans, edge rounding, the character tools...) and more and more I realized that the modo developers have a heavy tendency to over-engineer things and seem happy with making things complicated instead of simple. Not my world.
And modelling, honestly, is taken straight from LW with all it's limitations and although improved upon, relies on the same oldschool ideas as LWs modeller.

That is NOT the future.

ATM modo 601 is catching dust on my HD, I only use it for certain jobs where it's collada export works better than other software I have.
Quite disappointed with that one.

Sorry, I think we derail the thread here.

I'm not looking for advise on modellers, I just wanted to add my views to this discussion, whatever good it may do.

Cheers,

Tom

brent3d
12-22-2013, 11:31 AM
Cool Tom :)

50one
12-22-2013, 12:01 PM
Well, sorry to disagree there: I watched modo since it's initial release but was never quite convinced of it's workflow, too much of it showed the old limited imagination of the original developers when it comes to modelling.
When I stopped relying mainly on XSI I actually bought 601 when it came out and at first I really liked many things about it.
But after a while I found more and more things that simply don't work as advertised (networkrendering never worked here, render booleans, edge rounding, the character tools...) and more and more I realized that the modo developers have a heavy tendency to over-engineer things and seem happy with making things complicated instead of simple. Not my world.
And modelling, honestly, is taken straight from LW with all it's limitations and although improved upon, relies on the same oldschool ideas as LWs modeller.

That is NOT the future.

ATM modo 601 is catching dust on my HD, I only use it for certain jobs where it's collada export works better than other software I have.
Quite disappointed with that one.

Sorry, I think we derail the thread here.

I'm not looking for advise on modellers, I just wanted to add my views to this discussion, whatever good it may do.

Cheers,

Tom

Absolutely agree with you, even tho I use Modo instead Modeler, it's still the same system with all it's limitations, hopefully the Foundry will address this, can't believe that in 2013 destructive modelling is still here....besides is roo many clicks anyway(even if you got the system configured right is still to many clicks sometimes)

brent3d
12-22-2013, 02:15 PM
Obviously with those "limitations" it hasn't stopped the many studios big and small from seeing Modo's advantages and successfully implementing it within their productions. I do realize that it is just your personal opinion, but your opinion does not reflect the ever growing use of the LW based modeling system (Modo) within the industries. In this case growth means success, so for LW Modeler to evolve in that direction would only be a plus.

50one
12-22-2013, 02:22 PM
Obviously with those "limitations" it hasn't stopped the many studios big and small from seeing Modo's advantages and successfully implementing it within their productions. I do realize that it is just your personal opinion, but your opinion does not reflect the ever growing use of the LW based modeling system (Modo) within the industries. In this case growth means success, so for LW Modeler to evolve in that direction would only be a plus.

The fact that many studios and even the Pope is using Modo is not making it the best thing since slicing bread. i love it, but it's a proper relation like you have with your second half, after the initial three years you just start seeing 'things' yes, you can live with them but they're still there and would be great if if they were gone:p

brent3d
12-22-2013, 04:42 PM
The fact that many studios and even the Pope is using Modo is not making it the best thing since slicing bread. i love it, but it's a proper relation like you have with your second half, after the initial three years you just start seeing 'things' yes, you can live with them but they're still there and would be great if if they were gone:p

.. and like any relationship, it's a two way street.

jasonwestmas
12-24-2013, 06:39 AM
Modo is hardly the same system guys, to say "with ALL of modeler's limitations" is so far from the truth, especially in an animation and performance context.

50one
12-24-2013, 07:15 AM
Modo is hardly the same system guys, to say "with ALL of modeler's limitations" is so far from the truth, especially in an animation and performance context.

Yes, exaggerated a bit perhaps. Destructive workflow(although it's bit better in Modo as I can apply some effectors without breaking the geometry) it's what I meant.

hrgiger
12-24-2013, 07:56 AM
Modo is hardly the same system guys, to say "with ALL of modeler's limitations" is so far from the truth, especially in an animation and performance context.

well yes and no. Neither system can animate their modeling tools so to me its same bread just sliced and baked differently.

but this is derailing the thread. please no more modo vs lw, we've had more then enough of that lately.

robpowers3d
12-24-2013, 09:26 AM
hrgiger,
I just wanted to drop a message to say thank you for sharing your ideas on this. We are certainly watching this thread and all threads regularly. We are also discussing ways to increase our regular interaction with the community and we have some future plans on this that we are working on. As some of you in this thread have noticed we have put significant effort into the monthly newsletter and also our regular posts on Facebook and twitter.

One of the challenges that was in place when I took this job was what I feel were unrealistic expectations that had been set during the past regarding communication about development at very early stages. Perhaps I've moved too far in the opposite direction and we are discussing how to continue to improve our communication.

However, I would like to state that I am a strong believer in our development team. I feel it is a team of brilliant and talented individuals who are watching every post and keeping an eye on all of the current threads in the community. One of the main pillars of how I manage a team is to focus a lot of energy on watching and listening to our community and incorporating that in all of our discussions and meetings. But I strongly feel that this development team knows where we should be going and what should be done with LightWave.

The development process and priorities is a very complex beast and we are constantly tasked with taking a flood of requests and potential priorities and whittling them down to create a reasonable development schedule with our overall product design goal in mind.

Much of that may not be apparent from the outside but in some ways it can't be. There are certain things that we have to keep quiet until we are certain that they are meeting our internal standards. And I would point out that one of the biggest changes that I have brought to our development process is the number of actual LightWave users that are involved at the very earliest stages. Lino, Matt, Ken, Deuce, Jen, Ben and myself are just some. There are also of course several of our developers which are also users. I think this is a very unique thing about our development team. We actually have a large number of our team that has actually worked at a professional level using our software for many years. That does make a huge difference and it is one very big way that we are different from all of the other companies. Many of who just talk about things that they have never actually done themselves.

You will likely see our communication improve as we work on some of the plans that we have but also realize that the ability to "back and forth" from development team members is limited because our primary job is to keep focused every day on making LightWave better. Perhaps at some point in the future we will consider adding someone that will solely be a community evangelist without the heavy development responsibilities. But up to this point when adding personnel I've focused on adding hands on team members that are working every day to make LightWave better on the development side.

Ultimately, our best communication to you is the software that we release. It shows the progress that we are making in very clear terms. I feel as our team does that you can see the progress over that past few years and that it shows the fundamental changes that have happened within our team and processes. But we are still moving and changing as we continue to move toward our future goals. I know that this development team is extremely passionate and that we love LightWave. That means that this is not just a job for us but something that we believe in deeply. I think as we continue to evolve for the better that you, our users, will continue to recognize the positive direction that we are moving and we hope to surprise you with some very cool tools along the way as well. Here is to 2014 and to all of the greatness that will unfold from our development team and from the great work of our LightWave users around the world.






To Rob and LW3DG-

I just want to start out by saying that I love using LightWave. I've been using LightWave now for almost 14 years. Mainly as a hobbyist but in the last few years I've been able to do some freelance jobs as well as making some additional income with my presets for LWCAD. But its not what motivates me to open up LightWave or Zbrush every day. I do it because I'm fascinated by this type of technology, I have a background in and appreciation for the arts, and when I found 3D modeling and animation, it seemed like a natural fit for me. I think for anyone who has been around these forums for any of the last several years knows that I can be critical of LW at times and maybe some see that like I have some sort of axe to grind with LightWave or that I don't appreciate all the hard work that goes into its development. There is absolutely no truth to that. The truth is, I see no reason to sugarcoat when I see things about LightWave that could and should be improved. Sometimes, I'm met with the argument, "well if you don't like it, why don't you just go use Maya or Max or XSI". Honestly I have gone to use other apps. I went with XSI for a while until they killed its foundation version and Autodesk took over. I bought into Modo at version 401 and upgraded to 601 when it came out. And to be honest, I went to those apps with the intention that I might never return to using LW because those apps offered things like a unified workspace, high quality animation tools and very flexible workflows. But eventually I sold my license to Modo as well because even though there were some benefits that I could not get in LightWave, my comfort zone was easily in using LW. Some of it was familiarity with LW and having more experience sure, but part of it was that there are also great benefits in LW that you can't find in some other apps as well. Maybe I don't say that enough, but there are a lot of great things about LW that are worth preserving as development moves forward. That may seem obvious to some, but usually my vocalizations here are usually more focused on what LW needs rather then what it has.

But this post isnt' about me but I thought it important to mention that I have a real passion for 3D and for LightWave. Which leads me into the reason for this post. There are a lot of incredibly talented individuals in the LightWave community but more importantly, incredibly passionate people as well. Honestly in my time in using Modo or XSI have I gotten more help, more advice, more free resources/assets, more specific questions answered here in the LW community then anywhere else. A lot of people always say that working in LightWave is faster then working in other programs and I just don't usually buy into that. I think someone very familiar with another app would tell you there's no app to work in faster then the one they work in. But when someone from the LW community says that it has the best community, I think that's true. I know a few people who don't even use LightWave anymore who still lurk and even still post on the boards here regularly. Maybe its old habits die hard, or maybe its just a great place to spend time in. Maybe an outsider would view it differently, that's just been my impression. And its the community that I wanted to talk about.

So this whole thought that I had about this has been brewing for a while but kind of culminated tonight when having a discussion on Skype with other LW users and here it is: It seems to me LW3DG, that you are overlooking an incredibly valuable and FREE resource in the LW community. Now I'm not talking necessarily like a full collaborative effort which was attempted with CORE and was just overall a disaster. But I am talking about engaging us regularly in a focused way. Recently you sent out a poll asking about what was working in LW and what wasn't. And that's good. But the last time I remember taking a poll was during the LW8 series which I'm assuming led into the LW9 developments and possibly CORE as well. But here on the forums, usually the only time that developers or LW3DG staff step into a thread is either A) to close it B) when enough fuss is raised by users that you're attempting to put out that particular fire or C) to praise the benefits of LW or showcase a particular user of LW and his work. And while all those things may have merit in themselves, it does little to actually engage the LW community in actual dialogue.

One of the things that came up on Skype tonight was the Modo vs LightWave discussion currently going on here in the Community section. The question was, should the thread be closed because it was promoting the use of competing software which is against the rules here on the Newtek boards? My thought on the matter was, if there were more things to talk about currently going on in LightWave, then threads like that wouldn't be so prevalent and would be a lot less interesting to engage in. Most people here are LightWave users and most primarily LightWave users. We want to hear about what's going on in LightWave first and foremost. Sure, new developments in technology and 3D in general across the industry are always interesting. But nothing is more interesting then what's happening in the application that you currently are able to pop open right now on your computer.

Newtek has been burned in the past because they talked about developments in LightWave before they were ready and made what most users saw as 'promises' and when those didn't work out the way it was discussed, users got mad and accused NT of lying and breaking promises. So now, Rob's philosophy is that they won't talk about things before they are ready. And you know what, I totally get that and agree with it 100% (ok 98%). But that doesn't mean that we should go months without having some sort of dialogue with developers on the direction of the software. And I'm not talking roadmaps or feature lists or anything else that could be considered a 'promise'. I'm talking generalities like LW3DG saying OK, what if we did this, would that be useful to you or not? If not, what if we did this? How important would something like this be to you? For the last few years, I've participated in some webinars for 3DS Max where they show some mock ups, talk about things they might like to explore, possible features in the future. Mind you, I don't have any interest in buying Max but as I said before, I'm fascinated by the technology and if someone's going to talk about future developments, sure I'll listen. But in these webinars, they say none of this is definite, these are just possible directions they may go in, and they poll users on how useful all of those things would be for them. THAT is engaging users in a dialogue. I have a lot to fault Autodesk for, but that is certainly not one of them.

I dont' want to ramble on forever but I will just end with this- shortly after Siggraph this year, David Ikeda(LW and Chronosculpt developer) posted on the boards quite a lot for a few days. He discussed some of his processes in programming for LW, some of the challenges he faced and talked about possibilities. He answered a lot of users questions (and there were a lot of them). I won't speak for anyone else, but I truly appreciated David's contribution and it was very exciting to hear about some of the process involved in the development of LW. Some of the things he said were exciting, some of the things he said were a little discouraging- but to have that kind of open dialogue was amazingly refreshing and it made me feel good about using LW. Thank you David. Truly.

Of course, I don't expect you to just get the team on the boards and lay out all your diagrams, your roadmaps, everything you've scribbled on napkins, nothing of the sort. But maybe there's a balance to be had between no dialogue and some useful engagement from time to time. Just a thought.

Thomas Helzle
12-24-2013, 09:39 AM
Good Stuff Rob.
And yes, I can clearly see what has happened since you took over.
Otherwise I wouldn't even be here... ;-)

All the best to you and the whole team!

Cheers,

Tom

50one
12-24-2013, 10:06 AM
Good Stuff Rob.
And yes, I can clearly see what has happened since you took over.
Otherwise I wouldn't even be here... ;-)

All the best to you and the whole team!

Cheers,

Tom

+1

djwaterman
12-24-2013, 10:07 AM
Merry Christmas, and let's leave it at that.

jeric_synergy
12-24-2013, 10:30 AM
Very nice, Rob. Happy Holidays!

(I have a vision of, whenever a dev watches a thread, an "Eye of Horus" icon appears somewhere, indicating only that, "yes, we see this". ONLY. With no connotations either/any way.) :D

robpowers3d
12-24-2013, 10:34 AM
LOL. That is very funny. But eye or no eye rest assured that we see and read EVERYTHING. Most things are brought to the attention of the team within minutes when posted. I'm not sure the community realizes this.

brent3d
12-24-2013, 10:50 AM
Modo is hardly the same system guys, to say "with ALL of modeler's limitations" is so far from the truth, especially in an animation and performance context.

Actually it is, from some basic tools, navigation and even basic short cut keys...lol.. their from the same school of thought, literally (my remarks only regard modeling). My original comments suggested that if the Modo team could improve on the Modeler system then so could LW in it's own way, since the path had already been made. Even as Rob writes now, LW is constantly improving and we all know they have the ability to revamp Modeler, as we saw in Core, but we are just waiting for them to do so. LW is a stable and impressive tool for it's price range, plays well with other apps, and has the productions to show for it. But it's difficult to constantly read these forums and read posters comparing LW to programs that used to sell for $6,999.99, for years, right before being sold off. Even now with little if no development they sell for no less than $3,000.00. So I say to those who are so willing to constantly compare LW to those programs to just put their money where their mouth is and start paying the LW team double or triple it's current cost, I'm sure with that level of funding and resources they could make all the critics dreams come true. In reality though LW now stands alone, last of the original four, rebelling against the monopoly that threatens us all. So, those on this forum need to ask themselves are they part of the solution or part of the problem, because with friends like these who needs enemies.

brent3d
12-24-2013, 10:53 AM
LOL. That is very funny. But eye or no eye rest assured that we see and read EVERYTHING. Most things are brought to the attention of the team within minutes when posted. I'm not sure the community realizes this.

Great to hear that Rob, keep up the good fight.

jeric_synergy
12-24-2013, 10:54 AM
The co$t: indeed. C4D has a gorgeous interface. It's also twice as much as Lightwave. Since I'll be scraping together individual pennies for 3rd Powers plugins, it's a real consideration.

jasonwestmas
12-24-2013, 12:23 PM
well yes and no. Neither system can animate their modeling tools so to me its same bread just sliced and baked differently.

but this is derailing the thread. please no more modo vs lw, we've had more then enough of that lately.

sorry, I failed to look at the subject title, I'm trying to respond to other posts without derailing further. Not sure what modo has to do with this thread lol.

Always nice to hear what LWG leadership has to say, thanks Rob.

jasonwestmas
12-24-2013, 12:28 PM
Actually it is, from some basic tools, navigation and even basic short cut keys...lol.. their from the same school of thought, literally (my remarks only regard modeling). My original comments suggested that if the Modo team could improve on the Modeler system then so could LW in it's own way, since the path had already been made. Even as Rob writes now, LW is constantly improving and we all know they have the ability to revamp Modeler, as we saw in Core, but we are just waiting for them to do so. LW is a stable and impressive tool for it's price range, plays well with other apps, and has the productions to show for it. But it's difficult to constantly read these forums and read posters comparing LW to programs that used to sell for $6,999.99, for years, right before being sold off. Even now with little if no development they sell for no less than $3,000.00. So I say to those who are so willing to constantly compare LW to those programs to just put their money where their mouth is and start paying the LW team double or triple it's current cost, I'm sure with that level of funding and resources they could make all the critics dreams come true. In reality though LW now stands alone, last of the original four, rebelling against the monopoly that threatens us all. So, those on this forum need to ask themselves are they part of the solution or part of the problem, because with friends like these who needs enemies.

move this to the modo thread please. :) I can argue all day on this lol.

Thomas Helzle
12-24-2013, 12:32 PM
Guys, grab yourself some cookies and relax - it's christmas after all ;-)

Cheers!

Tom

hrgiger
12-24-2013, 12:54 PM
Rob, i just want to thank you for taking the time to respond. And let me be clear that I do see a lot of the good that has come in the last few years including the newsletters, making trials of LightWave and chronosculpt available, the great Siggraph presentations, more video tutorials amd most recently signs that you are observant of how people are using LightWave and where they feel it could be improvedby taking surveys. I look forward to seeing the improvements coming to LightWave.

Daphne
01-11-2014, 02:04 PM
I'm glad you posted what you did hrgiger. I've used LW for quite awhile and one of the things that has always impressed me on the forum is the openness/friendliness/willingness to share/help between users, as well as from the Newtek folks. There have been numerous occassions where I was on the forums in the middle of the night trying to find a solution for something and more often that not, I found it and it saved the day because of that openness.

I have looked at other software/forums when I have needed functionality that LW didn't have but the tone and sometimes downright nastiness, especially when LW was mentioned, turned me completely off and I wouldn't even consider the product at that point. It is like some of the other companies/users are so worried everyone is going to steal their info/ideas that everything is closely guarded plus there is little to no presence by those "in the know" in some instances. I was reading on a competitor's forum last night and some people got nasty towards LW but then a couple of users defended it, and with very well thought out and effective arguments and sure enough, they were individuals I have seen here that also use that product. They may be in the group that have left, I don't know. Granted this is all a bit off-topic but one reason some of us have hung through the thick and thin (and yes I purchased CORE) is this feels like a group of friends helping each other not a competition where you refuse to share or even be cordial.

BTW, I do appreciate the tolerance for the "LW used in combination with software X "hreads because I honestly believe there are other softwares that combined with LW make a super combination.

Now to get back on topic... regarding info from Newtek, I get there is a balancing act and if a functionality is brought up, some people go postal if it isn't promptly supplied plus other vendors are also monitoring and could implement it first but it would be nice to have more info if possible. There are some areas that could use some love and knowing those areas are being looked at does give one the warm and fuzzies.

I am not sure if some people that post here are Newtek employees or not either. Some have it in their sig lines but I think others may not.

Thanks for posting though and listening to us.