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View Full Version : fiberFX styling and editing frustration in layout, take a look at this...



prometheus
10-28-2013, 11:52 PM
Im not that fond of editing the hair guide styles in fiberFX lw 11.6 and in layout..
just been checking back to it now..but I keep getting frustrating on how awkward it feels.

Maybe check cinema4d and how smooth it seems ..compared to the styling in lighwave layout...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB9nbmfqUh8

firstly we could use a cut off brush tool...secondly the brush tools doesnīt seem to behave properly either.
in cinema you seem to have a vast set of hair tools...and such simple things like changing the hair guide lenght with a value slider makes
it a lot easier donīt it, we can only brush the scale in layout.
of course you got the fiber styling guide in modeler..but I donīt see that as a good workflow and having to seperate modules for doing the same thing, just because
we got the split model/layout core.

Just a heads up for you guys in the dev team, I personally need this as a better tool if I should be able to work decently with it.
Please surprise me in the next lw version maybe:)

Thanks

Roland
10-29-2013, 07:21 AM
Im not that fond of editing the hair guide styles in fiberFX lw 11.6 and in layout..
just been checking back to it now..but I keep getting frustrating on how awkward it feels.



My staff works with Cinema, I with LW. I have the same frustration as you, if I want to use the Fiberfx. :oye:

Ztreem
10-29-2013, 09:38 AM
and such simple things like changing the hair guide lenght with a value slider makes
it a lot easier donīt it, we can only brush the scale in layout.
Thanks

We can do this, in the fiberFX panel you have a scale option, set it to the length you want.
I still agree with you that the hair styling in Layout is really lacking.
We don't have a collision option so the hair doesn't penetrate objects. A cut hair brush would be nice instead of having to use the scale brush. I would also like a twist brush.

prometheus
10-29-2013, 11:43 AM
We can do this, in the fiberFX panel you have a scale option, set it to the length you want.
I still agree with you that the hair styling in Layout is really lacking.
We don't have a collision option so the hair doesn't penetrate objects. A cut hair brush would be nice instead of having to use the scale brush. I would also like a twist brush.

Yes sort of, but you would have to leave the edit guide mode to acess the main fiberfx window, and it isnīt represented as hair guides, only as the opengl volume strokes..so itīs not really the same.
idealistic, we should have a better fiberfx main panel where you can expand the fiberfx menu and use the brush tool without going edit/and a new pop up menu only available.
besides... changing the scale isnīt reacting in realtime, since it is showcasing the opengl results, not the actual hairguides as it does when the edit brush is active.

In modeler that is different..from there it reacts in realtime, but then you can work with it within scenecontext and having direct feedback on the volume look and render without jumping out of the
fiberfx modeler/module..switching to layout and fire that up..we are stuck with a module inside of modeler, sort of like two UI in model..then back to layout and working with different hair tools in two UI modules in layout.

Agree on the cut brush, or trim perhaps..looks great in cinema4d, twist would be nice too..or curl vortex, but I thing the general push brush is weird..compared to how it looks like when it is
active in cinema4d.
Fiberfx edit should have a control on the smoothness/amount of points on the guides for easy acess too.
Another thing might be that when a style is created, it seems to get lost once the scene is reloaded, and no way to reload those styles
preset system for hair would be nice, and also for hair material, so you wouldnīt have to go and change root tip color and base tip color each time and doing it for each one of them, simply load color
preset hair color in one go with a preset.

I think the lightwave team still has a lot left to work on with fiberfx, render results I think looks quite decent.

Awkward.

Michael

Greenlaw
10-29-2013, 11:45 AM
I've used the cutting/trimming tools in FiberMesh for FiberFX guides, but it has its own issues to work around. The tool doesn't actually 'cut' the hair, rather it contracts the knots to be shorter at the ends. This is fine but it may cause subtle problems with dynamics because multiple 'knots' may bunch up at the tip and wiggle spastically. This can fixed if you relax the guide using the smoothing brush, or if go into Modeler and simply delete the extra bunched up segments. (I typically wind up using both methods.)

Sister's FiberMesh/FiberFX hair is a good example of where I ran into this situation:

Brudders 2 Production Log: Sister's Hair (http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?133274-The-Brudders-2-Production-Log-%28Well-sort-of-%29&p=1297753&viewfull=1#post1297753)

I originally tried styling Sister's hair using FiberFX Layout guides but it wasn't easy. In the past, I would create hair like this using the old Rail Cloning technique, which is what I used for characters in the DmC (Devil May Cry) theatrical trailer, including the little girl who had similar hair. I've also used this for characters in Saboteur and other games with 'long hair' characters. The Rail Cloning method can be very precise but I know it can be tedious if you've never done it before.

I found that cat fur, on the other hand, was very easy to style using Layout guides--I was able to style both Sergeant and Toullie's fur in just a few minutes, and it looked great. The problem I had, at the time, was a render issue. This might be fixed by now, but at the time I wound up going with FiberMesh guides for FiberFX to overcome the render issue. I don't necessarily recommend that though, because it introduces a lot of other complications, like how to UV map FiberMesh guides and get the to pick up weight and morph maps from the rigged character. (Note: You need to use DrainBGVMap for this.) If I had to do this again, I would revisit Layout Guides and see if the render issue has been fixed.

When I have time, I'd like to revisit Layout's styling tools in general. The last time I used them, I thought it had come a long way since LW 10 even. I just got so involved with making ZBrush FiberMesh guides work with FiberMesh and Bullet, and naturally we'll be finishing 'B2' with this pipeline, but I'd really like to keep this all LW native in future productions.

I'll post more info in that Production Log mentioned above when we return to working on 'B2' next month.

Anyway, to sum things up: for styling long human hair quickly, I think the best option is to learn and use ZBrush FiberMesh for FiberFX guides. Keep in mind that you may run into vmap transfer issues as described above, but that's really more of an issue when animating full body animal fur. For animal fur or short human hair, FiberFX's Layout guides is actually a lot easier to style with and you won't have the vmap issues.

I've never used C4D but from what I'm seeing, yeah, it would be nice to have some of that available to LightWave FiberFX. Having done a lot of hair and fur for characters in LightWave for over 13 years, I can honestly say you can't have too many tools to work with. :)

G.

prometheus
10-29-2013, 11:59 AM
Anyway, to sum things up: for styling long human hair quickly, I think the best option is to learn and use ZBrush FiberMesh for FiberFX guides. Keep in mind that you may run into vmap transfer issues as described above, but that's really more of an issue when animating full body animal fur. For animal fur or short human hair, FiberFX's Layout guides is actually a lot easier to style with and you won't have the vmap issues.

I've never used C4D but from what I'm seeing, yeah, it would be nice to have some of that available to LightWave FiberFX. Having done a lot of hair and fur for characters in LightWave for over 13 years, I can honestly say you can't have too many tools to work with. :)

G.
Indeed..zbrush is cool and good for that, but itīs sort a workaround to cover what Lightwave fails in, I donīt think many cinema4d guys would bother with zbrush if their tools are there and implemented good from the start..why would they
fire up zbrush for that, and having extra memory resources clogged up as well as dealing with converting and switching/communication with the two software.
I my self was shouting..please make this available for lightwave when zbrush got itīs fiber tools...but that is an expression of the lack of the proper lightwave hair styling tools ultimatly.

yes we probably are better of styling in modeler, but as mentioned..it isnīt in scenecontext where you can get direct render feedback and scenefeedback so Have my dislike with it being only available as a modeler tool.
But I guess we have to live with the cards we are given, until something better shows up.

The reference to cinema4d ..is just that, for the lightwave team to take a sneak peak on and see if they can improve lightwaves hair system..nothing wrong with that.
I recall Sensei and his truehair modeling tools...those were still a modeller tool, but it worked in modeler without a new module popup like fiberfx does...unfortunatly I think he gave that up..but the styling and cutting of
spline guides looked quite nice and in all full model viewports.

Michael

Greenlaw
10-29-2013, 12:24 PM
...yes we probably are better of styling in modeler...

Actually, I'm not saying that at all. Practically speaking, yeah, I can get much more specific working in Modeler using these old methods, but if better tools were available this would not be my preferred method.

I would much rather be using the Layout Guides tools over working in Modeler, not just for the styling tools but because it avoids the problems with transferring Vmaps. If only... :)

Well, I think it's almost there--it just needs a few more features to make it more practical for styling long hair.

I think for the most part, we're in agreement about the situation. I'm just presenting a few production proven solutions that are available right now.

G.

prometheus
10-29-2013, 12:31 PM
Actually, I'm not saying that at all. Practically speaking, yeah, I can get much more specific working in Modeler using these old methods, but if better tools were available this would not be my preferred method.

I would much rather using the Layout Guides tools over working in Modeler, not just for the styling tools but because it avoids the problems with transferring Vmaps. I think it's almost there--it just needs a few more features to make it workable for long hair.

I think for the most part, we're in agreement about the situation. I'm just offering a few production proven solutions that are available right now. :)

G.
yes..I agree with "rather working in layout" and the other things.
And Yes..you have done some great production proven stuff, and itīs one solution..but it doesnīt mean it is easy, just because it is production proven, it could be production proven in many different aspects but
it doesnīt say that there is another software doing production proven hair stuff..much easier and faster:)
So the value of production proven is questionable when you in the end reference it too how easy it is to work with.. and not just looking at how the end results turned out to be.

Michael

prometheus
10-29-2013, 12:35 PM
And while we are at it.

why not throw in weight map layout display, and weight map paint brush in layout, not only would we be able to fast paint any object for hair, it would be great for vegetation grass or other vegetation
painting in scenecontext next to other models etc.
And with that we could have gained a feature usable for hypervoxels appliance on the weigh map just painted, or particle emission on weight map just painted...but Iīm sure someone must have mentioned that before??
;)

Michael

prometheus
10-30-2013, 11:33 AM
Procedurals getting lost and arenīt loading when loading previously saved ffs file.
Some grass testing...saved the ffs file with procedurals on the random length, procedural ripple for the gravity, cleared the ground plane, added a new groundplane which is larger, and loaded the ffs file on to that, but
the procedural are all gone in the random lenghth..strangely the procedural is still there in the gravity "T" channel.

Michael

jwiede
10-30-2013, 03:40 PM
MAXON folks have commented in the past about how producing all the Cineversity content really helps "battle-test" Cinema4D's usability and workflows for real-world usage tasks. The Luxology folks have made similar statements about the modo tutorial content they produce. IIRC, Lino's mentioned how putting together his Rigging Revealed tutorials led to improvements in Lightwave's rigging and animation workflows.

Having the LW3DG folks produce a few tutorials using FFX to generate realistically-styled long hair for characters would either validate the efficiency and usability of the "dev-intended" workflows, or clearly demonstrate where workflow and usability improvements are needed (in a more directly-actionable manner than customer complaints allow). In the end, LW3DG and Lightwave customers both benefit from the creation of such tutorial content.

prometheus
11-01-2013, 05:00 PM
MAXON folks have commented in the past about how producing all the Cineversity content really helps "battle-test" Cinema4D's usability and workflows for real-world usage tasks. The Luxology folks have made similar statements about the modo tutorial content they produce. IIRC, Lino's mentioned how putting together his Rigging Revealed tutorials led to improvements in Lightwave's rigging and animation workflows.

Having the LW3DG folks produce a few tutorials using FFX to generate realistically-styled long hair for characters would either validate the efficiency and usability of the "dev-intended" workflows, or clearly demonstrate where workflow and usability improvements are needed (in a more directly-actionable manner than customer complaints allow). In the end, LW3DG and Lightwave customers both benefit from the creation of such tutorial content.

I agree to some extent, and we already have some good fiberFX tutorials, but we are still left with a poor styling tool in layout, and in modeler you canīt get instant feedback from the renderer.
So I am not in doubt over lightwaveīs capabilities to render realistic long here, and I am quite certain I can manage to do it too..if I put my time and effort in to it, but the issue (for me) is the workflow anyway and the time spent for us to reach that level.

Tutorials or not, it will not unleash the same power that comes with better fiberfx styling tools in layout.

Michael

prometheus
11-01-2013, 05:04 PM
and hereīs another guyīs recent post wanting some better styling tools in layout, since we are talking about it...
http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?138460-FiberFX-Taper-in-Layout