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View Full Version : LW12 - Octane - Kray *** Rendering Options



tcoursey
10-28-2013, 09:19 AM
We are looking at these options. I was curious to hear from others that have used or exetensivly played around with any of these (other than LW12 of course, more speculation there than anything). What are the advantages, disadvantages etc.

As we look at them, Octane will give us a tremendous amount of power with GPU's. We could upgrade machines to have multiple GPU's and get way more render power than getting newere CPU's for much less cost. However the resufracing that will be needed for our library will be quite extensive and time consuming.

Kray on the other hand will let us work with our current assets and get a better look (possibly) with blurry reflections etc. Without changing how our pipeline works currently. Render manager etc. But NO GPU rendering here yet...

LW12 and possibly Kray 3.0 could have GPU rendering. (who knows about 12, just total speculation and hope) Vray and many other products have native GPU rendering now and It's a crying shame that LW has not spoken a word about it. I think CORE really set them back a couple years ago...

Anyone with some constructive comments on any of this? We are mostly an architectural animation company. Thanks!

Danner
10-28-2013, 09:52 AM
Don't discount Arnold render. The lightwave integration is also in progeress and it is an amazin engine.

geo_n
10-28-2013, 09:59 AM
Lw 11 renderer - Most versatile and native support of most tools of lw ofcourse. Can be slow sometimes but 30% slower is acceptible imo.

kray 2 - very fast in general especially interior scenes. Some lw features are not supported.

octane - easiest renderer to use for animated deforming objects like fprime. Many features in lw not supported yet. GPU is not cheap and need highend psu and cooling.

OFF
10-28-2013, 10:30 AM
It would be great if Newtek would extend the possibility of his wonderful renderer to capacity of FPrime, but without its limitations - then many would not have to worry about buying Arnold -)

tyrot
10-28-2013, 10:51 AM
octane all the way..

tcoursey
10-28-2013, 10:59 AM
octane all the way..

What kind of work do you produce tyrot? Have you found it difficult to have to re-work your surfaces/textures from an already existing library....or maybe you don't have that. Thanks.

tcoursey
10-28-2013, 11:03 AM
Lw 11 renderer - Most versatile and native support of most tools of lw ofcourse. Can be slow sometimes but 30% slower is acceptible imo.

kray 2 - very fast in general especially interior scenes. Some lw features are not supported.

octane - easiest renderer to use for animated deforming objects like fprime. Many features in lw not supported yet. GPU is not cheap and need highend psu and cooling.

Good points. Those are definitely the talking points. As for GPU being expensive and needing high end psu and cooling. When one compares purchashing a new high end Xeon workstation with dual CPU's to an older machine that could have 2-4 GPU's pu in it the cost is much more in favor for the GPU scenario, at least from what I can gather.

It really just boild down to needing NT/LW3DG to give us GPU rendering with VPR or as a native render engine that could be used in network rendering...even if it has limitations in it's first rendition. PLEASE PLEASE...give it to us in 12!!!

tcoursey
10-28-2013, 11:06 AM
Don't discount Arnold render. The lightwave integration is also in progeress and it is an amazin engine.

Hasn't Arnold + Lightwave been talked about for over a year now? I don't know much about it truly...but it doesn't appear to be purchasable from their website and therefor typically that means a pretty high starting price for smaller studios. If they would even consider a small studio.

tcoursey
10-28-2013, 11:32 AM
Don't discount Arnold render. The lightwave integration is also in progeress and it is an amazin engine.

I beg your pardon...I just found this...LWtoArnold Facebook page. It must exist! hmm...Wonder why when I go to SolidAngles website all I get is an info page with a contact form....oh well.

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Arnold-renderer-for-Lightwave/107339726119625

Danner
10-28-2013, 12:01 PM
They have hinted that this "for big studios only" policy will change very soon.

I have tried Kray and Octane, and with my experience with the LW renderer, native is still the best fit for me. You need to spend some time mastering Kray to get good looking renders that also render fast. I am impressed with what Octane cand do but my hardware is not right for it and the extra shading can be a problem if you need to redo stuff that was already shaded. Arnold is CPU based, so that fits better with my 16core workstation, but using it with lightwave would mean a similar reshading process as Octane I suppose but I've Seen some demos that show it's quality and speed so I am really looking forward to trying it. There are many other interesting renderers out there, but I'm sticking with LW compatible ones for now.

gristle
10-28-2013, 12:13 PM
I use fPrime, Kray and recently Octane. fPrime and Kray play well together, basic lighting preview and layout using FPrime, then do the rest in Kray. I see you are looking at arch. renderings. At this point (as mentioned) Octane is pretty limited. I've tried a few interiors on it and while the results look good, it is still fairly slow to render to the same noise free level as a Kray render. Sure, you can throw more GPUs at it but there are downsides to that - heat, cannot network render to distribute heat across machines.

tcoursey
10-28-2013, 12:29 PM
I use fPrime, Kray and recently Octane. fPrime and Kray play well together, basic lighting preview and layout using FPrime, then do the rest in Kray. I see you are looking at arch. renderings. At this point (as mentioned) Octane is pretty limited. I've tried a few interiors on it and while the results look good, it is still fairly slow to render to the same noise free level as a Kray render. Sure, you can throw more GPUs at it but there are downsides to that - heat, cannot network render to distribute heat across machines.

Good points. Does Fprime use GPU yet? When you say fprime and kray play well together, do you mean the results of your previews are similar?

We mainly produce animation so distributed rendering is critical, unless speeds are so good that only a few managed machines could produce the same qty of animation.

Thanks.

geo_n
10-28-2013, 12:59 PM
Good points. Those are definitely the talking points. As for GPU being expensive and needing high end psu and cooling. When one compares purchashing a new high end Xeon workstation with dual CPU's to an older machine that could have 2-4 GPU's pu in it the cost is much more in favor for the GPU scenario, at least from what I can gather.

It really just boild down to needing NT/LW3DG to give us GPU rendering with VPR or as a native render engine that could be used in network rendering...even if it has limitations in it's first rendition. PLEASE PLEASE...give it to us in 12!!!

I want to do some research about cost but don't have time yet.
You can probably put three to four Titans in a desktop pc realistically that can last a few years. How much would it cost with the highend psu and cooling? I haven't added up the cost but I know a Titan is over 800usd each.
I put together four I7 3770 render node dirt cheap 600usd per I7 all in with os. I can expand this kind of farm easily adding render nodes or even increasing ram per node anytime. Each render node is 105 watts and 60C when rendering on aircooling. Very very efficient with electricity and heating. If electricity is cheap in your country then its not a factor I guess.
Also with gpu renderer you need a standalone license+lw plugin license per desktop you add to the farm. With a cpu render node you only need to buy an os.

There's some render comparison here.
Kray from me 18 mins with single desktop. Please note I'm a so so kray user not a veteran so this could be faster. Also rendered this with lightwave which is bit slower, 28mins I think.
http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?131666-Octane-render-for-Lightwave/page56

octane from COBRASoft. Two gpu rendered at 18mins. That's a lot of heat and power.
http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?131666-Octane-render-for-Lightwave/page58

tcoursey
10-28-2013, 01:07 PM
I want to do some research about cost but don't have time yet.
You can probably put three to four Titans in a desktop pc realistically that can last a few years. How much would it cost with the highend psu and cooling? I haven't added up the cost but I know a Titan is over 800usd each.
I put together four I7 3770 render node dirt cheap 600usd per I7 all in with os. I can expand this kind of farm easily adding render nodes or even increasing ram per node anytime. Each render node is 105 watts and 60C when rendering on aircooling. Very very efficient with electricity and heating. If electricity is cheap in your country then its not a factor I guess.
Also with gpu renderer you need a standalone license+lw plugin license per desktop you add to the farm. With a cpu render node you only need to buy an os.

There's some render comparison here.
Kray from me 18 mins with single desktop. Please note I'm a so so kray user not a veteran so this could be faster. Also rendered this with lightwave which is bit slower, 28mins I think.
http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?131666-Octane-render-for-Lightwave/page56

octane from COBRASoft. Two gpu rendered at 18mins. That's a lot of heat and power.
http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?131666-Octane-render-for-Lightwave/page58

All very good points. Yes the power and heat "can" add up. The render node license with octane does add to the cost. These are concerns as well as having to re-sufrace existing assets. However the "future" as I see it is GPU. I may be wrong...time will tell. Have a quick review of this search of GPU Rendering... http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=gpu+rendering&oq=gpu+rendering&gs_l=youtube.3..0l5j0i5l5.50.1617.0.1727.12.10.0.0 .0.0.163.1132.3j7.10.0...0.0...1ac.1.11.youtube.SP TIgmFZs2U

Machines I'm talking about (dual xeon latest chips) with ram and os etc..etc...are nearing $6k a piece+ The cost of power and cooling them is a little lesss of an issue for me at the moment. Although should be considered as you point out.

Appreciate all the feedback everyone has had so far. In a perfect world I would just want GPU in LW native. I love LW's native render. I have used it for over 10+ years now. Caching radiosity, instancing etc...all very welcomed features. Now just need GPU!!!!

gristle
10-28-2013, 01:26 PM
Good points. Does Fprime use GPU yet? When you say fprime and kray play well together, do you mean the results of your previews are similar?

We mainly produce animation so distributed rendering is critical, unless speeds are so good that only a few managed machines could produce the same qty of animation.

Thanks.

Sorry, I should have said fPrime and Kray with 9.6 OR vpr and Kray with 11+. No GPU for FPrime, development on that has stopped as far as I know. Fprime does not work that well with 11. I use a preview renderer for setting up reflections and general lighting then dial it in with Kray.

I think you are better going with the native renderer or Kray at the moment, especially if you are producing animations. I recently sent a 750 frame animation (shared GI for all frames, camera only moving) to Garage Render and got it back in 2 hours, approx 70.00USD.

GPU rendering may be the future, but it seems like a blunt tool at the moment. Brute force. I'd like to see a GPU enabled renderer like Kray - not a complete unbiased brute force tool, but one like the current (FG/Photon map) as i'd imagine it would crank through stuff.

tcoursey
10-28-2013, 01:29 PM
Sorry, I should have said fPrime and Kray with 9.6 OR vpr and Kray with 11+. No GPU for FPrime, development on that has stopped as far as I know. Fprime does not work that well with 11. I use a preview renderer for setting up reflections and general lighting then dial it in with Kray.

I think you are better going with the native renderer or Kray at the moment, especially if you are producing animations. I recently sent a 750 frame animation (shared GI for all frames, camera only moving) to Garage Render and got it back in 2 hours, approx 70.00USD.

GPU rendering may be the future, but it seems like a blunt tool at the moment. Brute force. I'd like to see a GPU enabled renderer like Kray - not a complete unbiased brute force tool, but one like the current (FG/Photon map) as i'd imagine it would crank through stuff.

Yes an option to use GPU bias or unbias would be fantastic! Put it in Kray or LW either one. I'd buy!!!

alexos
10-28-2013, 02:56 PM
All very good points. Yes the power and heat "can" add up. The render node license with octane does add to the cost. These are concerns as well as having to re-sufrace existing assets. ...

Octane is absolutely spectacular and can reach a quality level that neither the native engine nor Kray can match, with an ease of use that I'd never seen before - back then, it took me months to understand K-ray enough to actually use it in production; it took me exactly two days with Octane. I bought a Titan which is happily (albeit rather noisily!) sitting alongside a Quadro 3700 and so far haven't had a single problem.

However... there are some serious drawbacks: noise can be a problem in some scenes, when things get complicated (in terms of polycount and lighting sources) it can become actually slower than the native engine, and most important - at least to me - none of LW nodes work; which means you find yourself sort of traveling back in time, to the days when building a surface meant an awful lot of image maps and photoshop, and there were things you just couldn't do anyway.
I mean, I really, really miss quite a few nodes, but, you know - early days, right? Still, re-surfacing existing assets, I don't know... Sounds like a possible nightmare to me.

ADP.

tcoursey
10-28-2013, 03:04 PM
Octane is absolutely spectacular and can reach a quality level that neither the native engine nor Kray can match, with an ease of use that I'd never seen before - back then, it took me months to understand K-ray enough to actually use it in production; it took me exactly two days with Octane. I bought a Titan which is happily (albeit rather noisily!) sitting alongside a Quadro 3700 and so far haven't had a single problem.

However... there are some serious drawbacks: noise can be a problem in some scenes, when things get complicated (in terms of polycount and lighting sources) it can become actually slower than the native engine, and most important - at least to me - none of LW nodes work; which means you find yourself sort of traveling back in time, to the days when building a surface meant an awful lot of image maps and photoshop, and there were things you just couldn't do anyway.
I mean, I really, really miss quite a few nodes, but, you know - early days, right? Still, re-surfacing existing assets, I don't know... Sounds like a possible nightmare to me.

ADP.

That pretty much sums up my thoughts as well. And why I thought I'd listen to others thoughts. From what I've seen so far and will begin to play with tomorrow, Octane seems amazing in many ways. However the draw backs are quite steep at the moment. Yes we have a tremendous library of objects we use over and over in our Arch Viz. So since none of that works AT ALL (other than the color channel) it's a steep hill to climb.

We may purchase and "play" with on special projects etc... Thanks for the feedback...

Thomas Leitner
10-29-2013, 12:46 AM
I beg your pardon...I just found this...LWtoArnold Facebook page. It must exist! hmm...Wonder why when I go to SolidAngles website all I get is an info page with a contact form....oh well.


It exists!
We are beta testing Arnold for LW for more than a half year now.

ciao
Thomas

OFF
10-29-2013, 03:47 AM
I beg your pardon...I just found this...LWtoArnold Facebook page. It must exist! hmm...Wonder why when I go to SolidAngles website all I get is an info page with a contact form....oh well.
LWtoArnold is not officially supported by SolidAngle.

It exists!
We are beta testing Arnold for LW for more than a half year now.
you bought a standalone Arnold?

Thomas Leitner
10-30-2013, 05:27 AM
LWtoArnold is not officially supported by SolidAngle.

you bought a standalone Arnold?

No, we didnīt buy a standalone Arnold.
We are in the Arnold beta testing program from Solid Angle (LWtoArnold). Of course if we want to use Arnold for commercial projects we have to buy a license.

ciao
Thomas

juanjgon
10-30-2013, 05:38 AM
The LWtoA plugin (Arnold for Lightwave) is a personal project that is in development and available currently as open beta for all users with access to Arnold or with Arnold licenses. If you want to use Arnold you can buy the Arnold linceses to Solid Angle and enter in open beta of the plugin for Lightwave.

-Juanjo