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akaracquel
09-08-2013, 07:43 AM
http://youtu.be/QP5QGBFGdcc

Created this video as an attempt to convey what happens to me (emotio-physically) for comic relief, just for fun{!} The issue does cause some kind of psychosomatic pain for me [acute (but brief) frustration, bottled in] ..but I can deal with that [Peter-Sellers-style] ..and often use humour to decompress.

As I didn't clearly articulate what the actual problem was in the vid, was curious to know if other LWers could understand why I needed to invent this virtual plugin? Apologies for being deliberately vague. I want to rule out whether or not it's just-hypersensitive-me who experiences this, before I relay more descriptive details of the issue over to fogbugz.

:screwy: ;D :screwy:

Lightwolf
09-08-2013, 07:58 AM
Haha, epic win for the cutest feature request ever. :D

While the menus can be a bit tricky to navigate (which is common to any nested menu in any system), the sticky click helps - I'm note sure if you're aware of it or using it.

Essentially, as opposed to clicking (mouse down) on a menu and keeping the button pressed until you select an item and release it, you can just click (down and release immediately) which opens the menu but keeps it open until you select something with another click.

Cheers,
Mike

jeric_synergy
09-08-2013, 10:18 AM
akaracquel, you are mad, MAD I say!

I think I know what you mean, how the menus sometimes are supahhhh flakey and oversensitive. I usually just cut back on my caffeine, which ain't easy for a Seattleite.

I didn't know about the 'sticky click' either-- is that a thing, or just a possibility?

dballesg
09-08-2013, 02:52 PM
Hilarious :D

akaracquel gets my vote as the next Newtek GUI designer! :lol:

akaracquel
09-08-2013, 07:23 PM
I didn't know about the 'sticky click' either-- is that a thing, or just a possibility?

I would like confirmation on that too as that's the actual issue I have with it. Didn't make that clear in the vid at all because i was solely focused on making the glue. There has never been any 'sticky click' working in LW like it does with other progs I use. Always thought this was a LW-style quirk. Is it possible there's some kind of preference setting I've missed to turn this feature on?

If i click on load/save/export (anything which needs to branch out to a second window) the first menu window will disappear, it won't make a 2nd window stay open. Second window can only be accessed via mouse rollover. Some menu items are short words, which makes me move the mouse to the far left. As the height of the active area is about 15px, it requires me to move the mouse very horizontally across a long narrow space. I often forget the mouse needs to roll across right over to the 2nd window entirely or it will close. Find myself reaching for the 2nd window items as i get close to or just past the flyout arrow, often tripping open the other menus. Easier to describe those kind of nuances via screen capture.

working with screen res: 1920x1080

Shorcuts or customised one-click buttons helps minimise the <gah>

A sticky click &or decreasing the sensitivity near the flyout arrow, would help :)

Lightwolf
09-08-2013, 07:29 PM
I didn't know about the 'sticky click' either-- is that a thing, or just a possibility?
It's a thing, always on. I've also not seen it not work yet (menus, pop-ups all use it). The major advantage is that you don't need to keep a finger on a button to have the menu stay open, making it a lot easier to shuffle through them. Especially if you use a tablet.

Cheers,
Mike

Lightwolf
09-08-2013, 07:31 PM
If i click on load/save/export (anything which needs to branch out to a second window) the first window will disappear, it won't keep a 2nd window open. Second window can only be accessed via mouse rollover.
Sub-menus are always opened on a rollover - regardless of how you launch the menu. It's the initial opening of the menu that determines if you need to keep the button pressed down or not.

Try it, as opposed to click-hold, just click-release like you would on a normal button.

Cheers,
Mike

jeric_synergy
09-09-2013, 01:17 AM
Oh, I see what you mean, but I think what I and akaracquel experience is repeated mis-alignment as the mouse transverses the text labeling the submenu, and rather than going strictly laterally it moves up/down and triggers the adjacent submenus. It's not a bug per se, it's just very sensitive. The longer the X distance to be traversed, the more likely at some point the user will trigger the submenu above and/or below it.

Unfortunately, clicking on a submenu title closes the entire nested menu display.

I can vouch that it can be REALLY annoying. And can really slow you down. (Well, me.)

IF clicking on a submenu title held that submenu open, what would be the harm?

If it's the wrong submenu, the user can click on another, and;
That should still be compatible with the current workflow, IOW it wouldn't have to be used, it'd just be there for those of us with the mouse-jitters.

Lightwolf
09-09-2013, 01:24 AM
Oh, I see what you mean, but I think what I and akaracquel experience is repeated mis-alignment as the mouse transverses the text labeling the submenu, and rather than going strictly laterally it moves up/down and triggers the adjacent submenus. It's not a bug per se, it's just very sensitive.
So basically, sloppy mousing - because the detection of where the mouse cursors is, is extremely precise (any why shouldn't it be) ;)

Maybe it's not an issue for me because I use a tablet.

But then, with the sticky click the submenu will stay open already... the only way to get it rid of it is to mouse over the title/entry for another submenu.

Cheers,
Mike

jeric_synergy
09-09-2013, 01:31 AM
It's not a major issue, no, but the sticky click AFAICS only applies to the first menu level: if I click on a submenu title it closes the entire menu structure. -- W7/LW11.5.

And it's aggravating enough that akaracquel made a video: I woulda just kept gritting my teeth.

Lightwolf
09-09-2013, 02:15 AM
It's not a major issue, no, but the sticky click AFAICS only applies to the first menu level: if I click on a submenu title it closes the entire menu structure. -- W7/LW11.5.
Yes, the point is to keep it open without requiring you to keep the mouse button down. Navigating sub-menues is mouse over as before. Btw. at least on Windows, standard menus behave the same way.
The only difference is that the delay between submenues is longer and you can klick on submenu titles without closing the complete menu (however, it has no effect at all).

Cheers,
Mike

djwaterman
09-09-2013, 07:39 AM
Nah, that sticky click thing only works to open up the first tab (File), all the sub tabs under that operate with roll over. Anyway, any of these list type menus that open up in LW should stay open and have a scroll bar, particularly when the list is very long.

akaracquel
09-09-2013, 07:57 AM
@jeric-synergy - tail on the donkey! :) \m/

There is noticeably longer lag/stick in other progs for sub menus and they are more forgiving if I'm not pinpoint accurate with my mouse movements. Did a video screen capture to illustrate.


http://youtu.be/3iCCImxWzVc

FWIW - this issue has always come across as a distinctive "LW-style " kind of cultural-legacy thing for me and I was simply letting off comedic [contains scream] steam …until some really big LW dude asked me to elaborate ;) I'm certain that veteran LWers could be very accustomed to the style/pace of mouse movements needed to keep the sub menus open. Didn't want to suggest any kind of "change" to how-things-have-always-worked without some kind of discussion/feedback about it first …as wondering [I][why&where-on-earth?! :cursin:] after each upgrade, is challenging enough :hey:

Lightwolf
09-09-2013, 08:19 AM
There is noticeably longer lag/stick in other progs for sub menus and they are more forgiving if I'm not pinpoint accurate with my mouse movements. Did a video screen capture to illustrate.
Yup, that's what I meant further down. All the other applications also use OS menus, LW doesn't. Mind you, just changing the delay wouldn't help, it'd also need to ignore mouse overs (on the same menu level) for the delay to work the way the OS handles things. Otherwise the diagonal movements wouldn't work either - and you'd get slower pop-ups. ;)

@djwaterman: Yup, just the first click to open it. There's no reason to click afterwards anyhow (not in OS menus either) until you select an item that closes the menu.
I don't really care for scrollbars (except, maybe, as visual reference)... but I'd love to have a direct search just typing away.

Cheers,
Mike

jeric_synergy
09-09-2013, 08:46 AM
The "more forgiving" part is the part we'd prefer, although sticky-clicking a submenu to keep it open seems innocuous to me (and would probably require some huge rewrite).

Innocuous to the user that is.

Lightwolf
09-09-2013, 08:52 AM
@akaracquel: I'd suggest your write in a feature request and link to your second video.

Cheers,
Mike

akaracquel
09-09-2013, 09:01 AM
Thanks for your explanation Mike. It's helped me gain some insight on what I can only feel. My brain can't see the programming-realm/limitations clearly, but I can feel it. The experience does feel LW-style-ish, as though it's inherently coming from (or connected) to the program's heart[core?]centre (or something) :)

Virtual glue plugin FTW though! :boogiedow LW is working sooooo much better for me now :ohmy: FR, will do :thumbsup:

\m/ :devil: \m/

Lightwolf
09-09-2013, 09:10 AM
The experience does feel LW-style-ish, as though it's inherently coming from (or connected) to the program's heart[core?]centre (or something) :)

I'm afraid it's a lot simpler than that... LW just uses a custom, cross platform GUI toolkit which mimics the behaviour of controls (such as menus) as opposed to using what the OS provides.

I suppose that takes some of the magic away, sorry. ;)

Cheers,
Mike

akaracquel
09-09-2013, 09:27 AM
I suppose that takes some of the magic away, sorry. ;)

:lol:

I haven't been able to see the LW unicorn yet, but there is a big angry boss monkey, heaps of rabbits and at least 2 gremlins so … http://www.slaughterhouse.com.au/LW/emoticons/dontknow.gif

:hijack:

Lightwolf
09-09-2013, 09:44 AM
:lol:

I haven't been able to see the LW unicorn yet, but there is a big angry boss monkey, heaps of rabbits and at least 2 gremlins so … http://www.slaughterhouse.com.au/LW/emoticons/dontknow.gif

:hijack:
Don't forget the cow, that's essential. And ye god olde Eagle in Barrel. And yes, both go back long ways. ;)

Cheers,
Mike

(I won't mention the grand Lenscap either).

akaracquel
09-09-2013, 09:49 AM
(I won't mention the grand Lenscap either).

...but you did! Ummah! :tsktsk: :ohmy:

Danner
09-09-2013, 10:35 AM
She's too young to know about those crazy bits about LW.. anybody remember the plugin "long lunch"?

jeric_synergy
09-09-2013, 11:10 AM
I don't recall "Long Lunch" -- what did it do? Fake render screen?

Danner
09-09-2013, 12:23 PM
It was a modeler plugin, you would set a time for it, and it would open a progress bar with a criptic description "optimizing normal parametrization matrix" or something weird like that. So if you wanted to have a long lunch you'd set that off to an hour and tell your boss you left modeler doing some process and you'd be back later.

JoePoe
09-09-2013, 05:11 PM
Solved!!.... no dry time. ;)

http://forums.newtek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=116975&d=1378768240

XswampyX
09-09-2013, 05:40 PM
http://i465.photobucket.com/albums/rr16/xXswampyXx/LongLunch_zps44fa5772.jpg (http://s465.photobucket.com/user/xXswampyXx/media/LongLunch_zps44fa5772.jpg.html)

akaracquel
09-09-2013, 06:09 PM
:D ummah! :tsktsk:


She's too young to know about those crazy bits about LW..

http://www.slaughterhouse.com.au/LW/emoticons/secret.gif http://www.slaughterhouse.com.au/LW/emoticons/photo.gif

I might have the skills to up the ante on Lenscap someday :devil: \m/

JoePoe
09-09-2013, 06:10 PM
:lol: As much as I would like to bask in the genius that is Long Lunch....

THIS JUST IN....

Middle mouse lick and hold seems to do the trick......... for me at least!!!!!!

Edit: got a little excited. Coulda changed it, but I'll just make a correction note here. "Click" and hold. :D

akaracquel
09-09-2013, 06:42 PM
Solved!!.... no dry time. ;)

http://forums.newtek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=116975&d=1378768240


http://www.slaughterhouse.com.au/LW/emoticons/roa.gif Epic Solve JoePoe! :thumbsup: Middle mouse lick didn't work for me tho :ohmy:

jwiede
09-09-2013, 07:16 PM
Middle mouse lick didn't work for me tho :ohmy:

It probably worked for the mouse, who's off somewhere smoking a cigarette. ;) :devil:

akaracquel
09-09-2013, 08:44 PM
http://www.slaughterhouse.com.au/LW/emoticons/secret.gif

http://www.slaughterhouse.com.au/destinationthere/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/the_magic_unicorn.jpg

JoePoe
09-09-2013, 09:07 PM
Well wait a second. Innuendoes and creative responses aside......

The view past your monitor, compared to mine, makes me physically weep :cry:

akaracquel
09-10-2013, 02:19 AM
http://www.slaughterhouse.com.au/LW/emoticons/tt.gif

http://www.slaughterhouse.com.au/destinationthere/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/therebellion.jpg

Kuzey
09-10-2013, 05:22 AM
Hahahahaha :)

Bax33
09-10-2013, 07:43 PM
What a strange thread.

akaracquel
09-10-2013, 07:56 PM
I'm eating some sticky ET for lunch today. How about you?

http://www.slaughterhouse.com.au/destinationthere/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/stickyspecial.jpg

JonW
09-11-2013, 12:06 AM
There are a lot of Keyboard Shortcuts unused which you could apply to your most used function. Or reassign a shortcut if you use something all the time.

For Saving I just use "s" only.
Bridge I use a fair bit & have assigned "alt + b".


Much quicker than fiddling with a mouse!

akaracquel
09-11-2013, 02:15 AM
Agree :) hmm.. now that's a thought! We could remove redundancy in sub-menus entirely :D Whenever I press s without shift in other applications, it gives me that really special "I'm a Lightwaver!" feeling. It never ceases to make my heart go <kaphump> :heart: <kaphump> when that happens. I really love that one http://www.slaughterhouse.com.au/LW/emoticons/preved.gif

jeric_synergy
09-11-2013, 04:15 AM
Oh, one MUST redo the hotkey bindings: whoever assigned them was obviously nuts or/and a masochist. F2 has better things to do.

And the pointless redundancy in the mouse menus--- it's crazy.

jwiede
09-11-2013, 05:46 AM
And the pointless redundancy in the mouse menus--- it's crazy.

The menus needed a ground-up rethink and redesign ages ago, circa 9.x, after so many new tools and areas of functionality were added. The situation has only worsened as 10.x and now 11.x added yet more features and tools.

What's really needed is a "Studio Production 2014" menu set, if you will, designed to optimize workflows, etc. using current tools and workflows -- the same approach and design goals as the original "Studio Production" menu work, but redone from ground up around what's available now.

JohnMarchant
09-11-2013, 09:29 AM
Agreed Studio Production 2014 would do it.

jeric_synergy
09-11-2013, 10:31 AM
jweide, I couldn't agree more. Back in the day, the Studio Menus/Hotkeys were the cat's meow, 23-skidoo, but now they simply don't make sense. I assume everybody rolls their own.

IMO a sticky thread where people shared screenshots of their menus would make a lot of sense.

Danner
09-11-2013, 11:16 AM
Customizing your shortcuts takes some thought but it can be a huge time saver, I don't use menus much anymore.
A few things to consider:

Try to make shortcuts one handed, that will let you keep the other hand on the mouse, so for right handers everything should be on the left side of the keyboard. that means I don't have anything bound to alt-P or alt-O. I don't follow this if it's gonna make it difficult to remember, for example: "Align to last pont Y" is Alt-shift-Y just to keep it consistent with "Align to last pont X" and "Alight to last point Z" those are bound to Alt-shift-x and Alt-shift-z of course. I would have used just Alt x etc. But was already too used to using MergeTrigonX at Alt-x

I still use a lot of the default shortcuts, and for the custom ones I use the ALT key, just easier to remember that if it uses Alt it's one of the ones I added.

Some keys in lightwave are hardwired, all numbers for example. If you are not in the US or UK, don't use any symbols that are alternate on the numbers. For example the quote symbol " is Shift 2 in spanish keyboards, but shift 2 in lighwave is hardwired to "add layer 2 to the selection" So instead of inverting your selection as it should, it inverts your selection AND selects layer 2.

Get used to -Ctl Shift Mouse button- menus. They are handy for commands that get medium use, the ones that you don't use enough to warrant a keyboard shortcut but too common to be going to the menus all the time.

akaracquel
09-11-2013, 11:20 AM
Oh, one MUST redo the hotkey bindings: whoever assigned them was obviously nuts or/and a masochist. F2 has better things to do.

I wasn't able to understand what you were trying to express here jeric_synergy. Is a "hotkey binding" something permanent (unchangeable/hard-wired) / different to a shortcut? Is that what you mean? Would you be able to elaborate? (..only if you feel there's value in sharing/explaining what you were trying to communicate)

jeric_synergy
09-11-2013, 11:59 AM
Nah: 'binding' is just (gamer?) terminology for 'keyboard mapping', aka hotkeys. And of course MOST of the keyboard is mappable in LW and LWM.

But the default, NTek supplied hotkeys, to use a technical UI designer term, suck bigtime. Seriously, F2 as Motion Mixer? That buggy piece of crap? No. I map/bind F2 to "Show Graph Editor".

Obviously hotkeys w/o 'bucky keys (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bucky_bit)' (or even the SHIFT) should be assigned to the most used functions. Since that varies with each user, and handedness, each is going to be slightly different.

In Modeler, sometimes i use ALT as a mnemonic for 'Change', as in "alter"-- "I'm ALTERING this value." (fwiw)

In the Studio mouse-menus, there's a huge amount of overlap and redundancy and overlap, and making them 'flatter' would definitely be A Good Thing. (If a menu only has ONE entry in it, it's not really a menu, is it?)

akaracquel
09-11-2013, 01:28 PM
I understand you completely now, jeric_synergy ~ thanks! :thumbsup:

http://www.slaughterhouse.com.au/destinationthere/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/golemHAX.jpg

precious extra hotkeys ...so precious :)

akaracquel
09-11-2013, 03:19 PM
The menus needed a ground-up rethink and redesign ages ago, circa 9.x, after so many new tools and areas of functionality were added. The situation has only worsened as 10.x and now 11.x added yet more features and tools.

Worked with LW 6/8 a long time ago but my journey really started at 10. The transition/change in 11 was very intense for me. I can only imagine what this must be like for the very experienced LWers ...those who've either taken up every single upgrade VS those who prefer to skip a few versions too.

Wanted to share a screenshot of an effective technique that Corel used to highlight "Look! There's new stuff here! Check it out!" that i really enjoyed.

http://www.slaughterhouse.com.au/destinationthere/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/whatsnew.jpg

As an old-dog user, the link to the "what's new" in-house document wasn't that compelling. The big winner for me was their use of visual highlights that could clearly show me where all the new & changed things lived, straight away. Their "Highlight what's new" feature enabled users to see changes across different versions too. I had jumped from X3 to X6, so it was great. It gave a really good feel for what got added/when/across time as well.


What's really needed is a "Studio Production 2014" menu set

I don't know what would be involved in this process. From a noob-ish perspective it sounds like a constructive idea. Are there already-existing forms of online infrastructure that can help people effectively communicate their ideas/feedback into one centralised portal for this? Fogbugz? Lightwiki? Something which can help summarise & organise key ideas/development in point form at the top of a thread perhaps?

jeric_synergy
09-11-2013, 05:33 PM
Parallel to this is: I just fired up 11.5, and looked at "COPY" which I assumed was plain "C", no shift, no nuthin'. Incorrect.

I had substituted the plugin COPY_EDGES because it copies Edges, AND points AND polys, so why not? So, on my 11.5, "c" invokes COPY_EDGES, which is a sort of universal copy.

So besides hotkeys and menu configs, such a discussion could include smart REPLACEMENTS of various weak LW features. IMO, everybody should be using COPY_EDGES instead of the native Copy.

++

On my configs, COPY/PASTE/DELETE are all one-button operations. Suck it, CTRL-key!

akaracquel
09-11-2013, 06:45 PM
Parallel to this is:

..awww ...you bolded :heart: parallel :heart: in italics!!


whoever assigned them was obviously nuts or/and a masochist.

Is there a chance that this person, could actually be a ghost living inside the machine?


IMO, everybody should be using COPY_EDGES instead of the native Copy.

*gasps* Gosh, thanks! :thumbsup: I will have to file that one into the official initiation & welcoming ceremony for noobs or something.

meatycheesyboy
09-11-2013, 07:12 PM
Oh, I see what you mean, but I think what I and akaracquel experience is repeated mis-alignment as the mouse transverses the text labeling the submenu, and rather than going strictly laterally it moves up/down and triggers the adjacent submenus. It's not a bug per se, it's just very sensitive. The longer the X distance to be traversed, the more likely at some point the user will trigger the submenu above and/or below it.

Unfortunately, clicking on a submenu title closes the entire nested menu display.

I can vouch that it can be REALLY annoying. And can really slow you down. (Well, me.)

IF clicking on a submenu title held that submenu open, what would be the harm?

If it's the wrong submenu, the user can click on another, and;
That should still be compatible with the current workflow, IOW it wouldn't have to be used, it'd just be there for those of us with the mouse-jitters.


Admittedly, I only skimmed this thread so I may have missed this if someone else already posted it but here's how Amazon solved it's submenu precision issues. It's a pretty interesting read, maybe LW can incorporate these types of ideas?

http://bjk5.com/post/44698559168/breaking-down-amazons-mega-dropdown

akaracquel
09-11-2013, 07:20 PM
jeric_synergy -> pinned-a-tail-on-the-donkey | 18 points.
meatycheesyboy -> whacked-a-mole-on-the-head | 20 points

:thumbsup:

akaracquel
09-13-2013, 08:33 PM
Parallel to this is: I just fired up 11.5, and looked at "COPY"

Psssst! jericzzzz...

THIS JUST IN....

:bowdown: The LW Rampage Monkey God :bowdown:
...made copy edges {{kapoof}} in 11.6 detail tab ..and measure haz extra real estate unnnerneath it again :D \m/

:beerchug:

jeric_synergy
09-14-2013, 09:43 AM
:bowdown: The LW Rampage Monkey God :bowdown:
...made copy edges {{kapoof}} in 11.6 detail tab ..and measure haz extra real estate unnnerneath it again :D \m/

:beerchug:

Great! Where's my points? :dance:

akaracquel
09-20-2013, 02:26 AM
Great! Where's my points? :dance:

updated:
meatycheesyboy -> 20 points
jeric_synergy -> | 21 points.

http://www.slaughterhouse.com.au/LW/emoticons/win.jpg

BigHache
09-20-2013, 05:20 AM
This wins as my favorite thread. I'm done reading all forums now. :2guns: