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octopus2000
09-06-2013, 11:29 AM
is newtek also coming out with a 3d painting tool? since there's going to be a standalone cronosculpt? is a lightwave 3d painting tool also in the works?

jburford
09-06-2013, 11:36 AM
They couldn't answer that if the wanted to . . . .

You know the deal, so . . . . . ?

hrgiger
09-07-2013, 05:49 AM
is newtek also coming out with a 3d painting tool? since there's going to be a standalone cronosculpt? is a lightwave 3d painting tool also in the works?

why would a painting tool be a logical next step from chronosculpt? while chrnosculpt does indeed sculpt, its scope does not appear to be taking a model from a beginning to end process. sculpting tools are used to adjust or correct dynamics cache files. i see nothing that would indicate that a painting tool would follow?

Nicolas Jordan
09-07-2013, 07:07 AM
I highly doubt it since there are so many 3D painting programs available and it would be redundant unless they were able to come up with something innovative and put a new spin on 3d painting.

jasonwestmas
09-07-2013, 10:11 AM
Not likely, too much competition, it wouldn't be a selling point therefore.

sukardi
09-07-2013, 04:21 PM
Something built-in inside modeler, even if not full featured like Z brush would be nice ...

Julez4001
09-07-2013, 08:21 PM
Zbrush, Mudbox, 3DCoat, BodyPaint, and somewhat Photoshop CS4+

erikals
09-08-2013, 08:04 AM
u can also use free sculptris >
http://www.youtube.com/user/erikalst/search?query=sculptris

chikega
09-08-2013, 08:59 AM
Zbrush, Mudbox, 3DCoat, BodyPaint, and somewhat Photoshop CS4+

Also don't forget on the high end ... Mari, on the mid end MODO, on the low end ... Cheetah3d, on the free end ... Blender, and on the obscure end ... Blacksmith 3d and Reality Paint. The market is well represented at every conceivable price point.

Hey Julian :)

prometheus
09-08-2013, 05:46 PM
here we go again..

I think it would be a huge mistake not developing a sculpt brush deformer inside of lightwave, for a starter..yes in modeler..but the real importance is to be able to scultp deform in Layout, In scene context.
Zbrush zgo is nice, but there are times where you donīt want to mess with that workflow for model correction ..and zbrush doesnīt work in scene context with other scene items, a sculpt deform tool in Layout would, and you could
work in conjuction with other displacement deformers ..that wouldnīt be possible with zbrush zgo.

If Robs statements about being confident that the core technology can be introduced within Lightwave itself, then I still hang on to having that sculpt tool first showcased in Core, If not ..dissapointment, just have to wait and see, itīs their decision.
I donīt think we will get any info regarding if it ever will show up...I think it either will show up soon, or simple not.

Personally I hope they really managed to create an overhaul of the mesh editing in Layout that would allow for other paint tools, like paint instances, paint weightmaps, and drawing spline paths directly in layout, all layout based new tools...together with paint sculpt deform for fast correction of terrain meshes amongst others..in scene context.

jasonwestmas
09-08-2013, 05:53 PM
Yes, vertex painting and sculpting is always valuable in an animation context, but I don't think that is what Octopus 2000 is talking about.

prometheus
09-08-2013, 06:15 PM
Yes, vertex painting and sculpting is always valuable in an animation context, but I don't think that is what Octopus 2000 is talking about.

Of course it is, Im not talking about that though, for that ..the lightwave group has a focus with chronosculpt, Im more talking about scene context scultping, and with that focus on terrain editing mostly, rock cliff deforming..an no, zbrush isnīt ideal for that
..it requires swapping of those apps constantly, and workflow wise it takes longer with drawing out your mesh..entering edit mode in zbrush, navigation difference from lightwave..all that is slower than it would have been directly inside of Layout...and as I mentioned, if you have different terrain objects, or other rock types in there, buildings, roads, plants...there is noway you can edit those in context with each other in zbrush as you would be able to do in layout.

Apart from the obvious terrain,environment,landscape sculpt deforming, there are most certainly times where you edit, extrude,multishift a model, but you would want to inflate some part of the model, or deflate with a simple sculpt tool that would be highly contraproductive to go zbrush and back again...compared to a simple sculpt deform tool in modeler.

It might not seem a big deal to click on the zbrush go app button,(if you have the program that is), but the program needs to start initialize, convert and you need to draw it out, re-navigate in a different way, sculpt without a four view..send it back etc..that
isnīt artistic interactive freedoom best implemented..and it actually affects the way you create in a lesser good way compared to have it affect the model inside of lightwave directly.

Donīt get me wrong, zbrush ZGo exchange is wonderful, but I donīt want it to fog our eyes from what could and should be ..in my opinion.
maya,modo,houdini,cinema4d,vue ..the developers of those apps seem to have recognized the importance of such tools..even with other sculpt programs around.

Michael

jasonwestmas
09-08-2013, 06:54 PM
We are thinking of the same things, I promise. When I sculpt some things I would like to do it (Or at least tweak my sculpts) within my rendering camera.

I also look at and experiment with many of the tools out there that already do animated sculpting . There are things like Pose Space Deformations and corrective morphing that fits into the "sculpting on the fly while rigging" category and then driving those sculpts with joint angle expressions, set driven key or tension mapping etc. . . for corrective and more expressive animation". Categorically, this isn't just for characters but for many situations, as I know some people are aware.

I'd be shocked if anything like this was top priority for LW3DG.

prometheus
09-08-2013, 07:03 PM
Agreed jaswonwestmas, I donīt have those animated sculpting as my priorities, but it differs from person to person Iīm sure.

I do not agree with the opinions that a scultp tool inside of Lightwave, modeler/layout would be redundant and also not a selling point, obviously there is some people asking for this feature..and I am sure Lighwave as a 3d tool would be more efficient, more attractive as a 3d tool of choice and it would enhance workflow without getting destractions of workarounds or the need of complementary software for lower sculpt deformations to medium resolution deforms.
cinema4d, and modo enhancements in those areas has gotten more and more of my attention to eventually work within those environments at some point, if Lightwave layout in the future will not be able to cope with such tasks.

jasonwestmas
09-08-2013, 07:25 PM
Agreed jaswonwestmas, I donīt have those animated sculpting as my priorities, but it differs from person to person Iīm sure.

I do not agree with the opinions that a scultp tool inside of Lightwave, modeler/layout would be redundant and also not a selling point, obviously there is some people asking for this feature..and I am sure Lighwave as a 3d tool would be more efficient, more attractive as a 3d tool of choice and it would enhance workflow without getting destractions of workarounds or the need of complementary software for lower sculpt deformations to medium resolution deforms.
cinema4d, and modo enhancements in those areas has gotten more and more of my attention to eventually work within those environments at some point, if Lightwave layout in the future will not be able to cope with such tasks.

Yeah, I tend to bring up the fact that if software isn't design to do "tweaks" on a component level in its first few releases, then it is far less likely to see any sculpting or painting in it in the future.

I haven't used C4D at all but I from what I've seen in modo and maya Lbrush, the workflows are ok but there are still technical hurdles with UV maps and tool integration problems that keep popping up. So in my eyes, this merging of sculpting and rigged animation still has a long way it can go before it becomes a popular/stable kind of workflow for high definition work. I say high definition because that is usually the purpose for sculpting and painting on a model in real time.

So I would think that if LW3DG were going to be doing anything huge with HD sculpting and rigging, for example, then I would say now is definitely the time to explore that and get it in our hands ASAP.

However, on the other hand. . . I think programs like Chronosculpt, Zbrush, 3DCoat and even Messiah which has no modeler are refreshingly powerful because they don't have all that technical baggage slowing the software down and the user's workflow. . . and that is part of the reason why they are so efficient to use and why they are able to handle so much detail.

prometheus
09-08-2013, 07:43 PM
there is differences in model approach regarding the notion of 3d sculpt and how that is so often connected to high def sculpts like zbrush creatures etc, I wouldnīt mind that of course, but jus a simple sculpt tool operating on lower or medium meshes would
be a huge step for better model/layout editing ..rather than resorting to Zbrush and goz.
So whenever sculpt paint tool is up for discussion it is directly up as a no contender to zbrush,scuptris etc, I think people tend to forget the importance of direct manipulation in the very same software they start out with and with simple sculpt deformers.

Just painting up a terrain ridge or crack or river bed, you would enhance the workflow speed A Lot with just a basic sculpt raise tool in Layout, if you were to go zgo..well prepare to wait for it to start initialize, extra time to spin around and find that unique viewpoint you are working against in Lightwave if you have made a rock, fractalized it etc..and are editing some polyīs or edges..but you want to inflate etc...you can not export out exact point of view from viewports..so you will be lost in the navigation when switching to zbrush, and need to navigate for the closest match, and besides that ..other things missing, it is just not efficient.

erikals is showcasing some terrain editing ..with some native tricks..but it clearly showcase a need for brush paint deformers that would if implemented have made the workflow much much easier, at that poly level you shouldnīt need hd sculpting programs.
Also..adding edges, working with polyflow..single point manipulation in conjuction with a brush sculpt tool is needed, you canīt work the same around a model with that in mind in zbrush today.
Edit...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLHxYpQG1zw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxxM4dUUP28

I find Zbrush and zgo fantastic, but as additional and complementary tool, and for raising new possibilities when sculpting hd figures/objects..but for object manipulation in general..it should be complementary, not a substitute for a lack of sculpt deformer in the native program.

jasonwestmas
09-08-2013, 07:53 PM
Yep, I have seen all those, videos/ threads. I think I was involved in the discussions as well. I just never know what kind of interest people have in it but sometimes it takes specific demonstrations like this to build interest.

I think NT had it right when they created that PDeform tool in Core. It was a fast and interactive way to push around polygons on the fly. I could have seen using it for animation or correcting just about anything. So in this kind of context I can see where you are going.

jasonwestmas
09-08-2013, 08:04 PM
Looking at those videos again, it would be nice to be able to do all that in front of the render camera.

prometheus
09-08-2013, 08:05 PM
yepp..pdeform was a starter...so not seeing it yet in Lightwave has made me go,, cooomon guys.
working in houdini with itīs sculpt tool is great too, canīt see the urge of a goz for many model manipulations or terrain editing at some levels, I figure modo is handling that better though, and cinema being the best of them, as to what I can see from demos.
So I havenīt tried modo or cinema out with those tools, only houdini, and maya a couple of years ago.

You have to keep in mind that you loose focus, and speed efficiency when going the switch Goz workflow, and loose track of editing point of interest too, that might not seem like a big issue for some, but I am quite sure it means a lot in the very creation process, that people simply might not be aware of..or blinded by the coolness of Goz and zbrush itself.
it depends also on where you start your model creation and the types of editing in the mesh you are doing, if I were to start a cliff/rock model in zbrush..the use of lightwave itself would not be needed that much, but if I start the model process with lightwave and on specific polylevels/areas which might need point or edge editing to suit my vision..then all that focus will be screwed up so to speak if I would like to add raised brush levels with Goz.

Michael

prometheus
09-08-2013, 08:07 PM
Looking at those videos again, it would be nice to be able to do all that in front of the render camera.

scene context sculptin with camera view in mind..sure.
There is also other scene items..that could need brush around deformations, which Zbrush canīt do.

octopus2000
09-09-2013, 04:52 AM
if newtek can't add a 3d painting plugin perhaps they can make a seperate app where lightwave models can be painted on in a lightwave layout environment and the models sent back into layout with the uv maps intact. and if adjustments are needed it's not hard to do because you're working at 2 similar lw layout environments. nt can sell that complimentary software for something like $150. it's a great selling pitch.

geo_n
09-09-2013, 05:24 AM
3dcoat is good for that.
But moving forward lightwave needs to have native painting and sculpting tools like c4d, 3dmax. A brush engine inside lightwave that is also useable for point manipulation like chrono.
I never understood why some people said they don't need animatable points in layout but here's a product that is targetted to do it, but sold separately.

DogBoy
09-09-2013, 06:00 AM
if newtek can't add a 3d painting plugin perhaps they can make a seperate app where lightwave models can be painted on in a lightwave layout environment and the models sent back into layout with the uv maps intact. and if adjustments are needed it's not hard to do because you're working at 2 similar lw layout environments. nt can sell that complimentary software for something like $150. it's a great selling pitch.

But it is a busy market. There are plenty of tools already to do that, so why bother?

chikega
09-09-2013, 02:14 PM
+1 for sculpting tools (vertex manipulation) in Layout.

octopus2000
09-09-2013, 03:02 PM
But it is a busy market. There are plenty of tools already to do that, so why bother?

maybe a faster workflow.

octopus2000
09-09-2013, 03:06 PM
perhaps newtek can just add a 3d painting capability inside chronosculpt.

Ernest
09-09-2013, 06:32 PM
Come to think of it, it does make sense. Since Chronosculpt is used mostly for explosions, it would make sense to paint dust, red-hotness, soot, etc., increasingly over time on different pieces.

jasonwestmas
09-09-2013, 07:00 PM
Come to think of it, it does make sense. Since Chronosculpt is used mostly for explosions, . . .

Mostly for explosions. . . interesting. Mostly for anything that can be point cached geometry, I would say. I think that was the main premise for Chronosculpt.

jeric_synergy
09-09-2013, 08:45 PM
At this early date, can we accurately say Chronosculpt is used 'mostly' for anything???

jasonwestmas
09-09-2013, 10:06 PM
At this early date, can we accurately say Chronosculpt is used 'mostly' for anything???

I would say that about the Hydra mesh technology they have going on, yeah. Chronosculpt is about sculpting animated point cache, in a non linear fashion.

geo_n
09-10-2013, 08:12 PM
+1 for sculpting tools (vertex manipulation) in Layout.

+2

jeric_synergy
09-11-2013, 04:17 AM
I would say that about the Hydra mesh technology they have going on, yeah. Chronosculpt is about sculpting animated point cache, in a non linear fashion.
That's quite a bit more than just "explosions". /:^*

jwiede
09-11-2013, 05:40 AM
perhaps newtek can just add a 3d painting capability inside chronosculpt.

That kind of defeats the point, however. The reason the functionality is being added inside C4D, Max, Modo, etc. is because it has direct usability w.r.t. animation/rigging setup, etc. above and beyond the obvious modeling/surfacing value. They're not trying to wholly replace ZBrush/3DC/Mudbox with those capabilities, they're just trying to provide enough "local functionality" to enable faster workflows that avoid having to switch apps, migrate assets, and so forth.

Adding painting into Chronosculpt doesn't really address the same issues, because, as an external app, it already requires asset transfer, app switching, and so forth. Once the user's being asked to switch apps, migrate/cross-load assets, etc. then convincing users to use something other than "focused/dedicated" sculpt/paint packages like 3DC/Mudbox/ZBrush is much more difficult a proposition. Chronosculpt adds specific value w.r.t. point cache editing workflows, but doesn't compete nearly as well against those other packages when it comes to mainstream sculpting/painting toolsets and workflows.

Putting it into head-to-head competition against those other packages over mainstream sculpt/paint toolsets and workflows feels like setting it up for failure, and squandering the edge it has in the areas where it does. IMO, Chronosculpt needs to focus on the areas and workflows where it offers unique added value, to try and take advantage of the competitive lead. Other sculpt/paint packages will adopt similar cache editing functionality soon enough as it is (presuming there's really a sustainable market niche), LW3DG needs to focus on getting as far ahead as they can while in front.

safetyman
09-11-2013, 05:54 AM
Why would you NOT have 3d painting and sculpting tools in LW? It's flawed thinking to say, "other apps are dedicated to that task so go buy those". I'm tired of going to find another app to do this or that. Maybe you don't need sculpting or 3d painting in what you do, and maybe you have the money to buy 3d coat or zbrush or whatever in addition to LW, but having those tools natively in our program of choice will better align it with what is currently the norm. If LW doesn't include some of these tools that other 3d programs have had for years (and are making further improvements on daily), people will most definitely find another app.

geo_n
09-11-2013, 06:12 AM
Its unlikely to have native sculpting tools in lw now with chrono offered as a separate product.
Guess they want to keep lw base price low so sculpting tools and mocap tools are sold separately.

JBT27
09-11-2013, 08:05 AM
Its unlikely to have native sculpting tools in lw now with chrono offered as a separate product.
Guess they want to keep lw base price low so sculpting tools and mocap tools are sold separately.

I'll happily pay extra if it comes to it, but mesh tweaks through the camera are paramount to speeding up workflow. Practically everything we do has a terrain mesh, or several, and all of them need some adjustment through the camera; not just terrains: rough walls, boulders, asteroids, whatever. The best we have is Drag and DragNet and watching the mesh update in Layout - it's something, but not great.

Maybe the tool should be built in, but frankly I'd pay extra for such things if it comes to it.

Julian.

jasonwestmas
09-11-2013, 10:24 AM
Why would you NOT have 3d painting and sculpting tools in LW? It's flawed thinking to say, "other apps are dedicated to that task so go buy those". I'm tired of going to find another app to do this or that. Maybe you don't need sculpting or 3d painting in what you do, and maybe you have the money to buy 3d coat or zbrush or whatever in addition to LW, but having those tools natively in our program of choice will better align it with what is currently the norm. If LW doesn't include some of these tools that other 3d programs have had for years (and are making further improvements on daily), people will most definitely find another app.

Just an opinion, but I would never trust a small company that sing songs of "we can do it all with only one program". But there is something to be said about "lower resolution" less powerful tools that allow us to tweak certain things without having to go back to our other software.

The reality is that with even the enormous programs like maya, the workflow for painting and sculpting is only mediocre, even with 3rd party plugins. Usually it's the technical baggage that comes along with the animation and rendering programs that drasti cally impedes upon any smooth sailing artistic workflows for painting and sculpting. That is not to say that the sculpting and painting tools in this category are completely useless; they have been proven to be useful especially for animation and rigging reasons. e.g. Painting vertex maps for weights and Mask; Creating morphs, tweaking geometry at any stage of the rigging or staging process etc.

jasonwestmas
09-11-2013, 10:29 AM
Its unlikely to have native sculpting tools in lw now with chrono offered as a separate product.
Guess they want to keep lw base price low so sculpting tools and mocap tools are sold separately.

I think it's more like a technical hurdle that is way too big to let any new ideas come in and work properly on a vertex and keyframe level. The workflow of CS would suffer greatly inside of a Lightwave architecture as it is now. Puting CS in a stand alone environment allows LW3DG to design/create better workflows and then perhaps adapt these new ideas into LW later.

jeric_synergy
09-11-2013, 10:38 AM
There's plenty of stuff WELL within the center of LW functionality that need addressing before NewTek _attempts_ a significant paint function.

probiner
09-11-2013, 11:46 AM
I didn't know CS was a sculpting tool as for modeling... What brushes capabilities it has? From the video seemed to be just like the EditToolFX, having a radial Falloff.



I would prefer to have said brush more oriented to mesh and scene management than to UV texture maps or multi-res/tesselation sculpts.
(..)
to place instances or items, to deform vertices on their normals (push), on their tangents (slide), on their neighbors (smooth), on screen space, on the UVs, to paint weights, to tweak animation like ChronoSculpt is doing and maybe even drop some color to a map (not a full blown painting system though just a tweak mindset), but why not translate/rotate/scale the scene objects/lights/cameras/bones with organically with a brush?.


Cheers

jasonwestmas
09-11-2013, 12:01 PM
I didn't know CS was a sculpting tool as for modeling... What brushes capabilities it has? From the video seemed to be just like the EditToolFX, having a radial Falloff.



Cheers

CS has no alpha capabilities. It uses strength and radial falloff atm along with pinch, drag, erase and smoothing capabilities as far as brushes go.

What's also interesting is that we can constrain the displacement of the brushes to X, Y or Z axes when sculpting.

probiner
09-11-2013, 12:53 PM
pinch, drag, erase and smoothing

Interesting, so no push or slide atm? Suprised by "pinch", though, it is sculpty.

Cheers

jasonwestmas
09-11-2013, 01:15 PM
Interesting, so no push or slide atm? Suprised by "pinch", though, it is sculpty.

Cheers

There is a brush called sculpt (I left out the name because it's a confusing name lol) and that lifts and pushes-in (carve) the polys. You can toggle between lifting carving with the ctrl key. RMB controls radial size of the brush. Shift key smooths. Drag is like the zbrush move brush. If by "slide" you mean constrain edits to edges, it doesn't do that, no.

probiner
09-11-2013, 02:26 PM
Yeah I meant to slide on tangents like you do in SI with tweak tool. Anyway, that looks like a solid basic setup.

Cheers

jeric_synergy
09-11-2013, 03:02 PM
There is a brush called sculpt .....
MORE 'genius' NewTek naming!!! /snark

And you're certainly correct, it IS a confusing name.

jasonwestmas
09-11-2013, 03:26 PM
MORE 'genius' NewTek naming!!! /snark

And you're certainly correct, it IS a confusing name.

Yeah I would probably go with something like "Deform" "Carve", "Build", "Clay" or "Standard"

prometheus
09-11-2013, 03:41 PM
Its unlikely to have native sculpting tools in lw now with chrono offered as a separate product.
Guess they want to keep lw base price low so sculpting tools and mocap tools are sold separately.

I Sincerly hope you are completly wrong of thinking that the lightwave team has that development philosophy as a bussiness model regarding model sculpting, Im so utterly convinced that they would shoot their self in the foot,bite themself in the tail, and Paint themself in a corner with that, In the end Im convinced they would loose old customers and loose new ones too.

As I see it, chronosculpt is a new breed of time sculpting, but canīt and shouldnīt replace what is de facto standard in many main applications.


Michael

geo_n
09-11-2013, 11:45 PM
I dont know about time based sculpting in chrono. What is the difference to animating vertices en masse with a brush with falloff like other software?
Chrono will never be integrated into lightwave from what I read on another thread. If they brought sculpting functions in layout that would potentially take away a lot of sales of chrono.

jwiede
09-12-2013, 01:06 AM
Why would you NOT have 3d painting and sculpting tools in LW? It's flawed thinking to say, "other apps are dedicated to that task so go buy those". I'm tired of going to find another app to do this or that. Maybe you don't need sculpting or 3d painting in what you do, and maybe you have the money to buy 3d coat or zbrush or whatever in addition to LW, but having those tools natively in our program of choice will better align it with what is currently the norm. If LW doesn't include some of these tools that other 3d programs have had for years (and are making further improvements on daily), people will most definitely find another app.

I definitely agree that LW needs sculpt and paint toolsets built-in similar to what C4D, Modo, Max, etc. are offering already. Truth is, since other apps have added such tools, any questions about the wisdom of incorporating such functionality in "full 3D pkgs" has been clearly and definitively answered in the affirmative. The apps which have added them have seen broad usage of the tools, both for modeling/surfacing, and also for animation/rigging, and other "less-obvious" workflows. It is quite clear that such functionality in the native pkg saves significant time and effort versus having to transfer assets, etc. to/from an external app.

Sadly, I don't see LW gaining such functionality any time soon. Besides LW3DG's statements to the effect of Chronosculpt-type features never being "in LW", there would need to be rather substantial infrastructure improvements to properly add such functionality to Layout (where most needed), and those changes don't seem any closer today than they were two years ago (IMO).

DogBoy
09-12-2013, 05:18 AM
Chrono will never be integrated into lightwave from what I read on another thread. If they brought sculpting functions in layout that would potentially take away a lot of sales of chrono.

I think you are reading that too literally. Chronosculpt, as a product, won't be integrated, but that doesn't preclude them putting the hydracore, and by extension sculpting, into Modeler. That way, we get sculpting in LW but it doesn't tread on Chronosculpts toes.:hey:

- - - Updated - - -



Chrono will never be integrated into lightwave from what I read on another thread. If they brought sculpting functions in layout that would potentially take away a lot of sales of chrono.

I think you are reading that too literally. Chronosculpt, as a product, won't be integrated, but that doesn't preclude them putting the hydracore, and by extension sculpting, into Modeler. That way, we get sculpting in LW but it doesn't tread on Chronosculpts toes.:hey:

prometheus
09-12-2013, 07:27 AM
I dont know about time based sculpting in chrono. What is the difference to animating vertices en masse with a brush with falloff like other software?
Chrono will never be integrated into lightwave from what I read on another thread. If they brought sculpting functions in layout that would potentially take away a lot of sales of chrono.

Well future will tell, it would be a juggling of speculative sales options.. if adding sculpting in lightwave would affect the sales of chrono, you can say the same about lightwave, if not adding it, Im sure customers go..what no sculpt tool, have to buy chronosculpt? no thanks..I go for modo,cinema4d that has it nativly with full interaction with other elements or add zbrush, zbrush and chronosculpt not working in scenecontext though, so best option would be to buy a more complete "out of the box solution" providing that, such as modo or cinema4d.


I canīt tell anything for certain about the future here, It just feel so worrying in my back spine, that if they choose to neglect such improvement within a future lightwave..I mean whatīs the point, a lesser functionality in Lightwave just
to keep up with the sales on their other new tech module engine, I can only see that as a bad approach, unless chronosculpt becomes a new lightwave itself with all the goodies in there that is there now, but then we are back on the core
aproach again.

This discussion will continue to be so speculative, one thing is to speculate over if they will add it to Lightwave, or keep it for the sake of chronosculpt sales...which might be a little pointless to speculate in since we donīt know
anything of how they will continue with it.

Another thing is to discuss if it would enhance lightwave itself by beeing added to lightwave and fully functional in layout and modeler, and if such implementation would work better than in chronosculpt for certain tasks, and without refering to the sales issue.

Michael

prometheus
09-12-2013, 08:24 AM
A note regarding chronosculpt fitting in with other tools and pipelines, users of modo,houdini,maya,cinema4d would hardly buy in to chronosculpt for the purpose of acessing a scultping tool, they have their own brush sculpt tools
nativly.
So I donīt see why adding a proper sculpt tool in layout/modeler should be in such a conflict with chronosculpt.

safetyman
09-12-2013, 11:13 AM
Just an opinion, but I would never trust a small company that sing songs of "we can do it all with only one program". But there is something to be said about "lower resolution" less powerful tools that allow us to tweak certain things without having to go back to our other software.

I believe that LW has been marketed as a "do-it-all" tool since the beginning. If you're not competing against 3DS Max/Maya/Cinema 4d, etc., then you don't have to claim to do it all, but I don't think that's the case. I could be wrong.


The reality is that with even the enormous programs like maya, the workflow for painting and sculpting is only mediocre, even with 3rd party plugins. Usually it's the technical baggage that comes along with the animation and rendering programs that drasti cally impedes upon any smooth sailing artistic workflows for painting and sculpting. That is not to say that the sculpting and painting tools in this category are completely useless; they have been proven to be useful especially for animation and rigging reasons. e.g. Painting vertex maps for weights and Mask; Creating morphs, tweaking geometry at any stage of the rigging or staging process etc.

Maya doesn't want to compete with Mudbox, so it's understandable that it's sculpting/3d painting tools could be considered mediocre. For LW, if you're gonna put them in there, don't do it half-arse. Don't put tools in there just because someone else has them.

jasonwestmas
09-12-2013, 12:06 PM
I'm not completely disagreeing with you Safetyman. But "Half Arsed" "HalfBaked" Tools are only viewed in such ways if the intended usage contradicts what the tools are capable of. I would never expect Lightwave or Maya to be able to compete with mudbox or zbrush for sculpting because those are specialized tools with a rather large architecture that supports what they do. It's just not realistic to expect lightwave and maya to compete with that. It is clear that Lightwave and Maya are designed for animation and rendering and that architecture interferes quite a lot with anything that a dedicated painting, sculpting and drawing application can do.

Does this mean that sculpting and painting tools inside of our primary animation and rendering package are completely redundant? No, not completely, and far from useless if they are designed to address certain issues within our animation and rendering workflow. But the tools should be designed for a specific kind of context and be quite interactive with several other tools. Otherwise they will appear to be half-baked and as a bleak after-thought.

jasonwestmas
09-12-2013, 12:34 PM
Another example is image editing. LW and Maya both have image editing capabilities. But just because I still need a dedicated image editor or composite prog. doesn't mean I would call out Newtek and AD and tell them they should stop creating half baked tools. As long as the imaging tools are working as intended, I see no need for them to put a dedicated image editor inside their dedicated animation/rendering package. It's not realistic to request or demand such a thing, especially from a small company.

robertoortiz
09-12-2013, 01:48 PM
Guy I am sorry but I have not have time to read the whole thread.

Anyway to answer the OP.
I feel strongly that a modeling tool in LW should be based on Chronosculpt. Hell give Chronosculpt advanced clay modeling capabilities, over a timeline, for version 2.0.
I think to add clay modeling capabilities to Layout, or Modeller is frankly a waste of time, becuase of the heavy problems the old infrastrucute has.
Chronosculpt offers a blank canvas that you can build on with relative ease.

Surrealist.
09-12-2013, 01:51 PM
Another example is image editing. LW and Maya both have image editing capabilities. But just because I still need a dedicated image editor or composite prog. doesn't mean I would call out Newtek and AD and tell them they should stop creating half baked tools. As long as the imaging tools are working as intended, I see no need for them to put a dedicated image editor inside their dedicated animation/rendering package. It's not realistic to request or demand such a thing, especially from a small company.



Same thing could be said of MotionBuilder, to add features like weight painting would detract from the fact that it is a real time animation playback engine. You can build a rig of bones in there but not skin.... well, if it means another architecture to do that then it defeats the purpose.

I'd actually like to see cronosculpt and the technology behind it be the center of the LightWave of the future. I know they can not promise this. But I'd like to see LWG do something innovative rather than just things that we can do other places. A completely fresh new way to animate - remember our Point Animation tests? That was actually kinda thrilling to me once we figured out how the whole thing could come together. Limited to certain things but the idea of something that works in a new way and solves problems in a different way is where I'd like to see this go. Houdni is a great example of taking an innovative and modern approach to 3D.

Something where you could be driving mesh by any number of means, with rigging, dynamics and all of it also something you could edit right in the same interface with CS features. That would be something interesting.

I say we don't need yet another Maya, Modo, Max, XSI or even C4D. Something new and fresh.

jasonwestmas
09-12-2013, 01:51 PM
Guy I am sorry but I have not have time to read the whole thread.

Anyway to answer the OP.
I feel strongly that a modeling tool in LW should be based on Chronosculpt. Hell give Chronosculpt advanced clay modeling capabilities, over a timeline, for version 2.0.
I think to add clay modeling capabilities to Layout, or Modeller is frankly a waste of time, becuase of the heavy problems the old infrastrucute has.
Chronosculpt offers a blank canvas that you can build on with relative ease.

Agreed, Precisely what I and others are talking about.

robertoortiz
09-12-2013, 02:12 PM
One thing that has to addressed is that the Chronosculpt timeline mesh editing capabilities is something that is a big part of its DNA.
This timeline editing capability is not something that has added after the fact like in other 3d sculpting apps.

The way NT can stand out on the crowded sculpting market is tackling the modeling process in a different way.

And to be fair to NT and its limited resources, form me the path of least resistance to having a solid sculpting app is give more modeling tools to Chronosculpt.

jasonwestmas
09-12-2013, 02:23 PM
A completely fresh new way to animate - remember our Point Animation tests? That was actually kinda thrilling to me once we figured out how the whole thing could come together. Limited to certain things but the idea of something that works in a new way and solves problems in a different way is where I'd like to see this go.


I say we don't need yet another Maya, Modo, Max, XSI or even C4D. Something new and fresh.

Yeah, it's funny thinking back. . . that in many ways this nonlinear approach in chronosculpt, sort of addresses a lot of the things you wanted to use the Messiah Point animation tools for. I think it's really great how we can just sculpt some polys and then move or stretch that Deformation-CLIP out over time. It's pretty easy to copy and paste the brush clips in CS now but I'll be looking forward to a clip bin so that we can easily organize and reuse those clips.

And Yes, I would agree we don't need another version of the same kinds of workflows.

Surrealist.
09-12-2013, 02:50 PM
Hmm really. That is interesting. Going to have to have a play with it when the trial comes out.

robertoortiz
09-12-2013, 02:52 PM
A cool thing of using Chronosculpt as a basis for a clay modeling toolset is that you could do 3D Claymation
with ease

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jX5bszW1smc

jeric_synergy
09-12-2013, 05:40 PM
Is this crazy?: Which would be easier, adding CS type capabilities to LW, or:

ADDING LWM CAPABILITIES TO CHRONOSCULPT?

jasonwestmas
09-12-2013, 06:01 PM
Is this crazy?: Which would be easier, adding CS type capabilities to LW, or:

ADDING LWM CAPABILITIES TO CHRONOSCULPT?

he, he, you know the answer.

jeric_synergy
09-12-2013, 06:33 PM
he, he, you know the answer.
To be honest, I do not.

However, compared to what Layout does, Modeler seems simple in comparison. This is probably due to my profound ignorance, but to me it seems the most complex stuff Modeler does is Endomorphs and correctly divvying up UV maps during and after various operations. And the devs now KNOW how to do that correctly.

Plus, over and over again we hear about how Modeler's (and Layout's) legacy architecture prevents the devs from doing what they want (for good or ill)-- I'd hope that Chronosculpt might have been designed with a more modern and evolved architecture that would eliminate such hurdles.

BUT, not a programmer-- consciously stopped because I wanted a different life. So I don't know if that's a crazy idea or not.

jasonwestmas
09-12-2013, 06:53 PM
Well, there was a thread called Chronosculpt from LW3D group from a month ago. I guess someone buzzed in and deleted it. Too bad, it had a lot of nice thoughts/perspectives from Newbie3D, one of the engineers on Chronosculpt. I would do a search for his posts if you are interested in Chronosculpt and Hydra.

jeric_synergy
09-12-2013, 06:59 PM
Maybe it's in the Chronosculpt forum here.

jasonwestmas
09-12-2013, 07:04 PM
Maybe it's in the Chronosculpt forum here.

It was ^.^ I don't see it.

Surrealist.
09-12-2013, 07:49 PM
I think it is just a matter of having a balance between financial reality and new technology. Soon enough all will be forgotten about the 3 year plan, the promise to continue in the same way etc.... none of that is real. Just hopeful. A unified application is not even a reality any time soon. Revamping LightWave is a 10 to 15 year project. Then consider that it has to be done around all of these other features that are money makers. So there are lots of ways this can play out. Making a separate smaller app is at least doable and can be useable and generate funds. It makes sense. The technology of 3D right now is currently in a transition from the way things have been going. Fabric, Bifrost, Houdni Engine... so we can not even expect that the former post core plans are even valid anymore. Where will 3D be in 5 years? I don't think it is going to look a whole lot like it does now. And apps will have a new way of interacting and more and more universal applications that can be ported anywhere. Looks to me like the 3D wall is coming down and CS is more in line with that trend by being something that can work in any pipeline.

jasonwestmas
09-12-2013, 11:37 PM
Yes, I saw the connection with that market trend too that appears to be popping up. The 3D market is changing into a modular one more and more.

geo_n
09-13-2013, 03:17 AM
Is this crazy?: Which would be easier, adding CS type capabilities to LW, or:

ADDING LWM CAPABILITIES TO CHRONOSCULPT?

Well I asked one of the developers I know. It is easier to put a new mesh engine into an existing package(layout) than putting ALL the features of an existing package(layout+modeller) to a modeller.
The real question is, whatever path they take, would many people switch to it that would cover delepmont cost? Or is it just better to keep on adding features to existing package that would not be so a big risk financially for the company?

jeric_synergy
09-13-2013, 09:17 AM
W It is easier to put a new mesh engine into an existing package(layout) than putting ALL the features of an existing package(layout+modeller) to a modeller.
Yeahhhhh, but what about JUST Modeler?

I can see them doing this incrementally: add some mesh creation tools, then UV tools, and it's already got Endomorph capabilities, right????? Then you've side-stepped that whole legacy code issue, PLUS 'added' a major new feature.

geo_n
09-13-2013, 11:48 PM
Make another modeller? Then you have the split app problem again.

jwiede
09-14-2013, 12:01 AM
Make another modeller? Then you have the split app problem again.

Not to mention that as Jeric proposed, you'd wind up with a Modeler that was less capable w.r.t. hard surface modeling, unless "some mesh creation tools" really means "everything needed for competent hard-surface & organic work", and it certainly would require a LOT of work for that beyond what's there. So, no, I really, really hope this isn't just turning CS into a modeler but leaving us with the split-app issue as well as the aforemention more limited toolset.

jeric_synergy
09-14-2013, 09:46 AM
unless "some mesh creation tools" really means "everything needed for competent hard-surface & organic work", and it certainly would require a LOT of work for that beyond what's there.
Yep. BUT you get

a timeline and
all the existing CS tools.
AND you ditch the ancient code-base, which is not doing us any favors.


EasiER than adding CS capabilities to Modeler. Not easy, just easier.

robertoortiz
09-14-2013, 10:01 AM
v
EasiER than adding CS capabilities to Modeler. Not easy, just easier.

What he said.

I am convinced that with added functionality Chronosculpt could became a replacement to modeler. (And lets face it the codebase of that program is long in the tooth)


Since Chronosculpt is timeline based, I can forsee a leap to taking over layout capabilities eventually. Considering how limited the resources are of the lw group I feel that a stepped replacement approach using the chronosculpt Hydra engine (Modeler first, the Layout) is the way to go.

So yes, EVENTUALLY we would get an unified app if the traditional LW artists can see that this tis the best approach for all.

jeric_synergy
09-14-2013, 10:05 AM
Not only is Modeler's code base OLD, as in really really frackin' old, popular perception is that it's also been neglected in the past half-decade.

And the whole LW "call-and-response" paradigm* is SOOooooo 1980's. :devil:


(that is, Renaming things should NOT require a dialog box.)

hrgiger
09-14-2013, 04:35 PM
I see nothing that indicates that Chronosculpt will be another modeler. The fact that it has sculpting tools does not make it a sculpting application. The tools are there to manipulate geometry in a cache based animation, usually from dynamic simulations. Anything more would just be wishful thinking at this point. As well as the fact that Rob has already mentioned that the functionality within chronosculpt will remain seperate from LightWave (with the exception of the Hydra geometry core).

If anything I see Hydra being brought into Layout and then a modeling system being built within there. But that's a shot in the dark too.

djwaterman
09-14-2013, 08:28 PM
Chronosculpt was designed for a specific purpose, to alter and tweak cached animation. That's it! Why do people want to ruin this app by trying to make it into something it was never meant to be. I would like to see it improved to be even better at doing what it was designed for, things like bringing audio in or background images, and better sculpt tools. But it was never and is never going to be a replacement for modeler or layout.

jasonwestmas
09-14-2013, 09:18 PM
Chronosculpt was designed for a specific purpose, to alter and tweak cached animation. That's it! Why do people want to ruin this app by trying to make it into something it was never meant to be. I would like to see it improved to be even better at doing what it was designed for, things like bringing audio in or background images, and better sculpt tools. But it was never and is never going to be a replacement for modeler or layout.

I think that is the intention, to keep the CS software in context while using parts of its foundation for other programs. . . and perhaps improving lightwave with the Hydra tech. It will be interesting to see what LWG does to LW concerning any mesh pipeline improvements.

That said, there may be a time when these programs can be "merged" but I don't think we are any where near that time without ruining the workflow of CS.

geo_n
09-14-2013, 09:26 PM
Making chronosculpt into a modeller and then adding layout stuff?
That already failed. Core failed. People want to relive that failure? One failure is enough I think or even more people will leave.

prometheus
09-15-2013, 04:12 AM
I see nothing that indicates that Chronosculpt will be another modeler. The fact that it has sculpting tools does not make it a sculpting application. The tools are there to manipulate geometry in a cache based animation, usually from dynamic simulations. Anything more would just be wishful thinking at this point. As well as the fact that Rob has already mentioned that the functionality within chronosculpt will remain seperate from LightWave (with the exception of the Hydra geometry core).

If anything I see Hydra being brought into Layout and then a modeling system being built within there. But that's a shot in the dark too.

yeah probably a shoot in the dark, since it seems Rob said it wonīt be implemented inside of Lightwave, (chronosculpt I ment..hydra tech might be a different thing) If Im allowed to make a prediction, I think the chronosculpt technology will eventually find itīs way in to other software..built in,
That would most certainly have the impact of leaving chronosculpt less attractive adn partly because it isnīt intergrated as the other software will be, and thus both chronosculpt and lightwave itself will be less attractive as the tool
of choice....but that is just what I think will happen and take it with a little salt and pepper so to speak, if that happens..I think thereīs no alternative than try to intergrate it ..if possible.

Michael

jeric_synergy
09-15-2013, 09:33 AM
Maybe "CacheTweeker" would have been a better name. ;)

Surrealist.
09-15-2013, 09:37 AM
Sounds more like a internet handle for some guy that works in the underbelly of Walls Street at some boiler room in Jersey. Some crook with a penchant for a clever play on words. :D

prospector
09-16-2013, 05:14 PM
I can see it become part of LW easily..and not mess with sales.
Done the same way LW was with the Toaster.
Just keep it 2 vers behind or something like that.

While Chrono is ver 2 or 3, LW will include ver 1..not lhe latest and greatest, but a start to entice people to upgrade to the newest ver for all the best stuff.

LW was at ver 9.5 and 10 but the Toaster included ver 8. want the newest tools and renderer? get LW 10 to run alongside Toaster.

That's *my* prediction. :D

probiner
09-16-2013, 07:08 PM
Prospector, you're saying Hub connection?

prospector
09-17-2013, 06:52 AM
no, in layout (because it's timeline based). just a ver or 2 behind seperate program