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Chris S. (Fez)
07-30-2013, 02:14 PM
******* amazing. I might have to name my first-born "Mark".

Interactively rips through heavy scenes...and not a single crash working in nodal all day. A first.

Sincere thanks to Newtek/LWgroup.

allabulle
07-31-2013, 02:59 AM
I completely agree. It's been quite improved indeed.

Edit: the name thing I might not follow, to be true. So not entirely completely agreeing there. :)

Edit: Well, nothing wrong with name, mind you. So yeah, well...

3DGFXStudios
07-31-2013, 03:02 AM
It funny how fast you forget the newly added features, but when you look back you see how big of an improvement they have been.

Nicolas Jordan
07-31-2013, 06:49 AM
I finally did some tests with VPR in 11.6 last night and I was very impressed with it's speed as well!

Chris S. (Fez)
07-31-2013, 10:57 AM
I completely agree. It's been quite improved indeed.

Edit: the name thing I might not follow, to be true. So not entirely completely agreeing there. :)

Edit: Well, nothing wrong with name, mind you. So yeah, well...

Ha. To clarify, Newtek's resident rendering guy is Mark Granger. LW renderer has always been respectable but I think the optimized performance and quality have transformed LW into not only one of the industry's best values, but also one of the best.

allabulle
07-31-2013, 11:03 AM
I agree. And yet if and when I have a kid, maybe I won't name him/her after our beloved Mark Granger. Great name, Mark, of course. And maybe I cheer to him when it comes the time, ...

I seriously think he's doing a great job, anyway. But I wanted to have fun like you about the homage. :)

lwanmtr
07-31-2013, 06:02 PM
Yep, VPR seems to have gottent better...my laptop can even use it (albeit slowly on gi or large scenes)..lol

prometheus
08-01-2013, 04:53 PM
Uhmm..not sure about the speed, you guys says so, But I have to test some different scenes on the lw 11. version and compare against the 11.6 versions.

I had hoped for VPR workflow improvements, mainly a vpr module window instead of only working with viewports as an exta option, escape from a vpr preview render without destroying it would be nice too,
that is if I set up a preview of 150 frames, and finds out it takes to long to complete and it would be enough with 50 frames, then hit escape and it stops and you should be able to start your preview play and play it and it runs to that keyframe when you
did your escape.
As it is now it stops the whole thing and you have wasted preview render time for nothing.

VPR also would benefit to have an exact match to your camera aspect and custom resolutions. viper for surface and hvīs can stop and replay after escape, and can respect camera aspect.

lwanmtr
08-01-2013, 05:24 PM
I havent used VPR for multi-frame rendering, Mostly just lighting and surfacing.

I agree with you about those improvements, and hopefully we'll see some more workflow enhancements like that. Specially the aspect and resolution, since that would give a much better representation of the final render.

prometheus
08-01-2013, 05:49 PM
I recently tested octane standalone demo again ..was a long time since I tested it before, It felt very slow in terms of moving around the scene, rendering is fast though, I think VPR might work more smoothly though that octane actually does, when
dealing with geometry and viewport navigation, cant comment on renderspeed vs the to apps though.

So Lightwave has indeed a very fast previewer so to speak, with some more advancements I mentioned here and some others ivé mentioned about being able to replay instantly as we can in viper and having seperate module window that
can work outside of working area in viewports, then it will push of to a completly new level....as one of the best previewing tools out there..I think.
And by all means put a small vpr button in the renderpanel or above the viewport itself next to vpr options, and even newbies will find it directly.

Michael

COBRASoft
08-01-2013, 05:56 PM
VPR still lacks some nice features from fprime. Mouse wheel zoom, continiously improving. Octane plugin has both, although zooming is not as fluid as fprime.
VPR is very good, but not as accurate to the final render like fprime or Octane.

My 'dream' is to be able to model on one monitor while VPR is on another, instant render feedback of my changes in modeler. Perhaps one day...

lwanmtr
08-01-2013, 08:09 PM
I've found VPR to be more accruate in terms of lighting and surfaces than fprime. I havent tried Octane, but it sounds good.

Snosrap
08-01-2013, 08:13 PM
Uhmm..not sure about the speed, you guys says so, But I have to test some different scenes on the lw 11. version and compare against the 11.6 versions. The speed improvements mentioned are when moving geometry, lights etc. around when VPR is active - not necessarily the time it takes for VPR to hit full res. (In that regard I don't see much - if any- difference.) But the speed improvements while moving items around is substantial.

Snosrap
08-01-2013, 08:18 PM
I never touch FPrime anymore due to no color space features.

gordonrobb
08-02-2013, 04:26 AM
I recently tested octane standalone demo again ..was a long time since I tested it before, It felt very slow in terms of moving around the scene, rendering is fast though,

Michael

Had you activated the priority switch that allows some of your graphics card's resources to be used for the UI? If you only have one card, or all of your cards are allocated to Octane, you need to do this, or everything can get jerky, which may be what you're seeing when 'moving things around'

Ryste3d
08-02-2013, 04:36 AM
Specially the aspect and resolution, since that would give a much better representation of the final render.

Use l or Limited Region in VPR mode, if that what you ment about aspect ratio ?

BeeVee
08-02-2013, 07:23 AM
...escape from a vpr preview render without destroying it would be nice too, that is if I set up a preview of 150 frames, and finds out it takes to long to complete and it would be enough with 50 frames, then hit escape and it stops and you should be able to start your preview play and play it and it runs to that keyframe when you did your escape.
As it is now it stops the whole thing and you have wasted preview render time for nothing.


Did you try going into the Preview dropdown and selecting Play Preview? Works for me unless I really don't have much in there.

B

prometheus
08-02-2013, 07:42 AM
Had you activated the priority switch that allows some of your graphics card's resources to be used for the UI? If you only have one card, or all of your cards are allocated to Octane, you need to do this, or everything can get jerky, which may be what you're seeing when 'moving things around'

Thanks...will check the settings and see if it getīs better.


Did you try going into the Preview dropdown and selecting Play Preview? Works for me unless I really don't have much in there.

B

Thanks BeeVee, Youré absolutly right, it works that way, strange I didnīt think about that, it also saves out the animation too even if I hit escape, test vpr render to mov format (32 bit only) plays up til the point when I hit escape, vlc doesnīt play it nicely though, quicktime does.
Thanks again BeeVee, now it will save a lot of time in the workflow.

I still hope the guys can improve it with additional window previewer that can retain the animation directly ...just as viper does, Also ..fiddling around with dragging your workspace viewport can often result in the cursor grabbing hold of scene elements and screw things up, apart from that you might need to work with all workspace viewport in wireframe and having a preview window would be more efficient, that said..the VPR within wiewport should of course be there,I love to sometimes blow the whole full viewport up to full glory.

Michael

dsol
08-02-2013, 12:33 PM
Just saw this thread, and having just loaded in one of the very instance-heavy, high poly scenes from Liminal States into 11.6, I can confirm that VPR is significantly faster - and vastly more stable - than any earlier versions on OSX. Great work LWDG!

EDIT: I'll echo what others have said though - a separate viewport for VPR (to match the final camera render settings) would really help. Also, using VPR for previews is really useful, but right now there's no easy way to set the quality and resolution (since it shares all options with OpenGL preview). A separate "VPR animation preview" option might be a solution. This could have options for scaling (50%, 25% etc), frame rate (eg. skip every other frame - but play back at the correct speed) and max quality/passes.

bazsa73
08-02-2013, 12:37 PM
I use VPR for NPR renderings and I'm mighty pleased with it.

dwburman
08-02-2013, 01:35 PM
Just saw this thread, and having just loaded in one of the very instance-heavy, high poly scenes from Liminal States into 11.6, I can confirm that VPR is significantly faster - and vastly more stable - than any earlier versions on OSX. Great work LWDG!

EDIT: I'll echo what others have said though - a separate viewport for VPR (to match the final camera render settings) would really help. Also, using VPR for previews is really useful, but right now there's no easy way to set the quality and resolution (since it shares all options with OpenGL preview). A separate "VPR animation preview" option might be a solution. This could have options for scaling (50%, 25% etc), frame rate (eg. skip every other frame - but play back at the correct speed) and max quality/passes.

Can't you already do some of those things with the current setup? You can't do a live floating viewport, but you can do a camera-sized floating panel for making previews... and you can set the camera multiplier to 25%, 50%, etc to scale the resolution down, and you have it skip every x number of frames and adjust the playback speed appropriately in the make preview window so if you skip every other frame change the playback speed x 1/2.

116067116066

Chris S. (Fez)
08-02-2013, 01:39 PM
A separate "VPR animation preview" option might be a solution. This could have options for scaling (50%, 25% etc), frame rate (eg. skip every other frame - but play back at the correct speed) and max quality/passes.

Great idea, though I think "Progressive" should be added to the global render settings. If the "Progressive" option is selected then extended settings appear and would include stuff like "save iterative frame" with the max quality/passes settings and such.

dwburman
08-02-2013, 01:43 PM
Yes, +1 for a progressive, iterative render ala FPrime would be nice... along with the floating window with the ability to zoom and pan around. Those were really nice features.

If I remember correctly, FPrime had a special cache file for each frame to enable the progressive rendering, and those files could take up a lot of hdd space. Of course, we now have 3 and 4 TB HDDs available to us... but we're also doing things 4K resolution with floating point bit depth. :)

prometheus
08-02-2013, 04:30 PM
Can't you already do some of those things with the current setup? You can't do a live floating viewport, but you can do a camera-sized floating panel for making previews... and you can set the camera multiplier to 25%, 50%, etc to scale the resolution down, and you have it skip every x number of frames and adjust the playback speed appropriately in the make preview window so if you skip every other frame change the playback speed x 1/2.

116067116066

As you mentioned, it isnīt live, besides..it is too awkward in workflow having to go display undock window etc. then go the play controls and make preview, itīs a slow workflow approach, having a vpr panel button under each viewport means just
one click to open the previewer that should be live active, and in the same panel just as viper a make preview and play preview instantly.
consolidate the tool better.

Michael

dsol
08-02-2013, 06:18 PM
As you mentioned, it isnīt live, besides..it is too awkward in workflow having to go display undock window etc. then go the play controls and make preview, itīs a slow workflow approach, having a vpr panel button under each viewport means just
one click to open the previewer that should be live active, and in the same panel just as viper a make preview and play preview instantly.
consolidate the tool better.

Michael

Thanks. Yep, it's a pain to have to go to display prefs to set this (it's how I do it already) - plus when a scene gets heavier to render, it would be handy to be able to lower quality settings to do quick motion previews with VPR.

edit: for comparison, see how easy it is to set up quick animation previews in After Effects. There's no technical reason LW couldn't be just as easy - it's just a UI/workflow thing.

dwburman
08-02-2013, 09:45 PM
I do think your suggestions are good, but I don't see it as an overly tedious workflow. Unless you toggle the 'Undock Preview Window" on and off a lot, you really only have to set that once, and the multiplier on the camera is easy to get to. That doesn't mean it shouldn't be made easier. By all means it should. :) I do think the VPR options widget should be redesigned because the little bullet list icon does not exactly scream "VPR Options" and is seems like the Make Preview Save Options should be labeled to indicate that they are for VPR previews only... and perhaps relocated to the VPR options panel.

I imaging that GUI design on something as complex as LW is a tricky thing.

stobbs
08-03-2013, 03:44 AM
great tip dwburman I didnt know you could do that with preview window.

To make sure the single viewport was a specific size I used the master plugin 'Window Configure' which allows you to input width and height values for layout - you just need to add the 'extra' pixels that make up the window borders and ui ( + 104px width and + 124px height I think)

If you wanted your vpr window to be 960 x 540 px you'd make layout 1064 x 664.

As for docking undocking windows I think I'd rather have the ability to dock property panels into the main window

prometheus
08-03-2013, 04:43 AM
I do think your suggestions are good, but I don't see it as an overly tedious workflow. Unless you toggle the 'Undock Preview Window" on and off a lot, you really only have to set that once, and the multiplier on the camera is easy to get to. That doesn't mean it shouldn't be made easier. By all means it should. :) I do think the VPR options widget should be redesigned because the little bullet list icon does not exactly scream "VPR Options" and is seems like the Make Preview Save Options should be labeled to indicate that they are for VPR previews only... and perhaps relocated to the VPR options panel.

I imaging that GUI design on something as complex as LW is a tricky thing.

Depends on everyones own perception and patience with things I guess, but I think itīs more constructive to discuss what could/should be there rather than ..itīs working, sort of, so itīs not about dashing the vpr..merely
keep on nagging and discussing on the fact that it can develop from good to greatness, standing were we are today doesnīt bring us any further ahead so to speak:)

Edit..yeah Icons can be a tricky thing, maybe the vpr setting icon should be that gear symbol that so many software uses as system setting sort of, vpr introduced more icons, (save image and vpr settings and active viewports)
another thing about vpr options...save image path and name, I would like to have it save image with scenename, if I do a scene called terrain1 and then a increment save to terrain_v01 , I would like it to automaticly save the
image with that name, the option of setting another namexxx could still be there.

Michael

prometheus
08-03-2013, 04:51 AM
great tip dwburman I didnt know you could do that with preview window.

To make sure the single viewport was a specific size I used the master plugin 'Window Configure' which allows you to input width and height values for layout - you just need to add the 'extra' pixels that make up the window borders and ui ( + 104px width and + 124px height I think)

If you wanted your vpr window to be 960 x 540 px you'd make layout 1064 x 664.

As for docking undocking windows I think I'd rather have the ability to dock property panels into the main window

sounds too complex guessing and recalculate vpr window size?
, and docking properties panels in to main windows? I can see a point of docking expanding properties panels against and in each other just as adobe does, but main window? maybe thatīs what you mean..but it sounds like docking
the panels in to the viewport main windows?

dsol
08-03-2013, 08:12 AM
sounds too complex guessing and recalculate vpr window size?
, and docking properties panels in to main windows? I can see a point of docking expanding properties panels against and in each other just as adobe does, but main window? maybe thatīs what you mean..but it sounds like docking
the panels in to the viewport main windows?

I guess he means like the snapping/docking palette windows in After Effects / Premiere. I'd love to see that too (along with support for quick switching of UI layouts from a drop-down list). Maybe we'll see something like that in LW12 - if it's a unified app, then workspaces (preset UI layouts for dedicated operations) become really essential.

And yeah, manually calculating your VPR render area by resizing the layout window sounds like not much fun. Particularly as the layout window is not just for rendering VPR previews - it's for actually working in too. I really think there should be the option to a separation between previewing (VPR) and adjusting layout objects. For simpler scenes, it's quite handy to have them integrated though (with OpenGL overlay). But Fprime/Octane style separate viewers should be an option too.

stobbs
08-03-2013, 09:29 AM
sounds too complex guessing and recalculate vpr window size?



Sorry I wasnt clear, that was really a work a round that I used before dwburman's tip - I had to render out a scene in VPR because for some reason F9 was terribly slow (ALOT slower..) but I wanted to make sure the VPR viewport, and thus the rendered images were the right resolution. It's not manually resizing layout and guessing though.. Like I said if you use Master Plugins-->Window Configure you can size layout/viewport precisely.


but it sounds like docking the panels in to the viewport main windows


Thats EXACTLY what I mean! Maybe most people want more floating windows but I want less. Going from after effects to lightwave feels to me like going from a modern tabbed browser to IE 5 or something... I spend so much more time unhiding, resizing and rearranging the UI in LW than I do in any other program.

Having said that a floating VPR window would be a good...

dsol
08-03-2013, 02:59 PM
A lot of the limitations of UI design come from restrictive software patents (now largely owned by the adobe/macromedia behemoth). Snapping/docking windows probably fall under that. Sadly this is the thing most likely holding up UI design improvements in apps - not technology. Another reason why software patents are often associated with dodgy too-broad patents.

HenrikSkoglund
08-03-2013, 04:24 PM
Also tried the new VPR out today... HUGE difference with a lot more responsiveness overall.

Way to go Newtek!

Now if we could only have that option with a floating window...

dwburman
08-03-2013, 09:17 PM
Part of me likes the way adobe apps have docking, but on the other hand I feel like I need to get a 30 inch monitor to use AE for HD stuff and still keep the work area and options both in front of me. Maybe I just need a 3rd screen.

dsol
08-04-2013, 03:41 AM
Heh, I love my 30" display. Hoping that 4K displays start going mainstream this year too - need as much resolution as possible!

stobbs
08-04-2013, 04:34 AM
Heh, I love my 30" display. Hoping that 4K displays start going mainstream this year too - need as much resolution as possible!

I guess how much resolution you've got to play with can have a big effect on whether you think a ui is well designed or not.. when I use 2x 1920x1200 apple monitors I end up spilling over on to other 2nd one alot more in LW. I think i prefer the idea of 1 big monitor vs 2 smaller ones.. 4k would certainly be an experience!

dsol
08-04-2013, 08:20 AM
The Adobe UI doesn't work too well over multiple displays AFAIK, so making something that's the best of both worlds would be an interesting challenge. So long as those software patents don't bite you in the ***!