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View Full Version : 3dConnexion Users... how can we make LightWave support even better?



lardbros
07-30-2013, 12:45 PM
I use a 3dConnexion device with my 3d software, but LightWave's support always feels like it falls just short of the mark for me... especially after using 3dsMax's.

So, here are a few things for me that would improve the support massively!! Please feel free to chime in with your thoughts and suggestions.

1.) Have the 3d Connexion drivers recognise LightWave is running so it can tailor the settings to LightWave specifically. I find using LW and a 3d Connexion device also moves my camera in 3dsMax if that's open at the same time... this isn't right, and the only reason is because LW is listed as 'Any Application'. This SHOULD list LightWave... and I have no idea why it doesn't.
2.) Have Modeller and Layout work in the same way. Currently, modeller has either a weird zooming thing, or a fixed rotation point and a weird zooming thing. This is different to Layout, Layout goes for more of the flying around type affair, but they aren't consistent at all... please make a nice consistent way of controlling both modeller and layout!!
3.) Make custom commands work. Like making the FIT button use a macro, shift+A in order to fit an item to screen. This DOESN'T work currently, unless I'm doing something totally wrong.
4.) Make it so the speed controls within the actual driver work... these are totally redundant at the moment. I don't know why LightWave has to do things differently to any other app out there... it's strange, and adds for confusion, and makes people feel it lacks polish.


If these simply aren't possible using the current LW SDK etc, then I wish Newtek would just say. Otherwise... better support would be awesome!! I can't work without my 3dConnexion, and it would just be nice to have consolidated driver support and consistent motion in both Layout & Modeller!


Thanks
Tim

Phil
07-30-2013, 04:13 PM
Annoyingly, I had to stop using mine. It would kernel panic my machine every time I unplugged the USB hub.

GraphXs
07-30-2013, 11:30 PM
Agreed! +1

sculptactive
07-31-2013, 12:06 AM
I use a 3dConnexion device with my 3d software, but LightWave's support always feels like it falls just short of the mark for me... especially after using 3dsMax's.



For me the SpacePilot works great in Modo/3DC, but sucks in LW. I have spent too much time tweaking the Nav setting with no joy.

The 3Dconnexion Cap in Modo/3DC will pan, zoom, rotate, left/right, forward/back perfectly out of the box all correctly.

In the LW Modeler perspective view, I can only get two directions to work and even then it is not natural. Moving the Cap up and down is zoom! (go figure) and rotate works, nothing else.
LW Layout is better. The navigation works on all the axes, but in the perspective view "up" is “down” and "down" is “up” and the cap is way too sensitive all the settings need manually adjusting in the Nav tab to be workable.


I cannot complain though as I was told by other LW members before purchasing that the Spacepilot is not great in LW. I just want to improve it.

.

sami
07-31-2013, 04:40 AM
+1 for me too on improving the SpacePilot Pro for LW. It works great in 3DCoat all directions work intuitively and all the buttons (view, fit, fit all etc) work just fine. but in LW the vertical is the zoom and there is no way to tweak it in Modeler. It is basically unusable in LW, but works fine in most other apps.

Please show the SpacePilot some love!

3dWannabe
07-31-2013, 12:37 PM
I posted on this issue earlier this month:
http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?136308-3DConnexion-issues-in-11-5-1

but I'll add my comments to this thread:

Could the developers please try this?

The 3DConnexion trainer has an 'all active' tab.

In this, you can position a teapot object using all axis (just as we should be able to in Modeler and Layout).

Play with this for a bit.

It works identically to how the 3DConnexion puck is handled in 3d Coat, 3ds Max, etc.

Now, try a teapot or any other non-symmetrical object in Modeler (note, I've added a minus sign in front of all the scales in Modeler).

Pulling the puck towards you, which should pull the object towards you, doesn't really work.

To move the object towards you, you have to pull 'up' on the puck.

You can keep the 3DConnexion trainer window open and observe how LW handles it and how the trainer handles the same movements.

Modeler is actually much better implemented than Layout. I can get by in Modeler even though it doesn't match how all the other apps work.

But in Layout, it's as if you've had 10 tequila shots ... you're very drunk and lacking co-ordination.

If you change from 'View' to 'current item', things start moving backwards. You have to remove the minus sign from certain scales.

Having an optional keyboard shortcut to toggle add/remove minus sign from scale would really help.

But, please ... just play with the 3dConnexion Trainer, notice how it's supposed to work, and make this happen in LW?

It will be immediately obvious how much differently this works in the Trainer than how the LW implementation works.

It's gotten better, it's improved (thanks a lot!!!), but ... why not make it work as it should?

lardbros
07-31-2013, 12:43 PM
As a side note, within Modeller... if you go to the options panel and turn off 'Zoom in perspective' you get a similar action to other apps, but it's still not right. It needs to keep the working polygons orbiting correctly, as it doesn't with 'Zoom in perspective' turned off!!
3dsmax has tonnes of options to make sure the polys you are working on are always orbited in a nice way.

I actually prefer Modeller too, even though it's totally wrong. It's easier to use than Layout.

I have no idea why Newtek would have dropped the functionality into Modeller and Layout without proper consideration of how it will work when people use it. It has got better, but that was just a tweak of the default values... nothing else has changed unfortunately.

Great tips there 3dWannabe... I had forgotten about those demo you get with it. They work perfectly.
Now, we just need those to be copied exactly... and proper driver implementation too, then we'll be sorted!!

AbnRanger
08-02-2013, 02:27 PM
I recently downloaded the 15 day trial of Modo, and I have to say, it was so fluid and smooth (using the SpacePilot) that I couldn't believe it. Even better than in 3ds Max or 3D Coat. Definitely makes the app more appealing. In LW, you are FORCED to navigate the way Newtek wants you to. I HATE that with a passion. They force you to navigate as if you are moving the camera around...not as if you are holding the object in your hand (this is the way I prefer to work). I don't sculpt a clay model with a camera in my hand. I move the object as I need, to work on different parts of the model or view it from different angles. As it stands, Modo's 3D Connexion support helps sell the application. LW's support on the other hand helps turn you off to the application.

lardbros
08-02-2013, 06:13 PM
If you want to have it reversed, you could put a minus before the scale settings on each place where it's wrong, and end up with the object moving method... but the bottom line is that the support isn't quite there. We need the driver settings to be recognised within LightWave... unfortunately as no one from Newtek has commented on any of this, I presume it's much more difficult than we realise?!? :(

It should be a priority though I think... I love my 3dConnexion devices, and can't live without them, but can live without them in LW... how frustrating!

gordonrobb
08-03-2013, 02:38 AM
I use mine mainly for positioning the camera in layout. However, it bugs the **** out of me that I can't find a way to get it to auto create a key when I'm done moving it. I get the position I want. Then do something else and the camera snaps back to original position. Any ideas folks?

lardbros
08-03-2013, 02:57 AM
Does the same here GordonRobb.... I got into the habit of hitting Enter twice to create a key, but it's very annoying. Also irritating that if you move an object or a camera by accident using the space mouse there is no undo!

OlaHaldor
08-04-2013, 01:38 AM
That problem must be new. In an earlier version, don't remember which, I could jump around the timeline and move the camera with 'auto key' on, and it would stick. I even hit play, and moved the camera around to make a fluid and natural looking camera to create keys on every frame.

I haven't tested animation like that now, but if it's not working, it's worthless.


EDIT
You know - never mind. You must select the correct mode. If you're having trouble with keys not being set, switch from VIEW mode to ITEM mode. Jump over to the NAV options and select ITEM and you're good to go.

OlaHaldor
08-08-2013, 02:41 AM
I downloaded the latest version (not sure if it did anything) and applied two things to the buttons:
Left button: fit all (Shift+A)
Right button: Left Mouse Button Menu (CMD/CTRL+SHIFT+LMB)

Works like a charm. I mostly use LWCAD for anything I do, so having LMB Menu on the SpaceNavigator makes a lot of sense to get to the tools I use the most as fast as possible.
And as we all know, if there's no selection everything is selected. Fit All works for zooming in on details you're working on - or just fit the entire model.

lardbros
08-08-2013, 06:23 AM
That problem must be new. In an earlier version, don't remember which, I could jump around the timeline and move the camera with 'auto key' on, and it would stick. I even hit play, and moved the camera around to make a fluid and natural looking camera to create keys on every frame.

I haven't tested animation like that now, but if it's not working, it's worthless.


EDIT
You know - never mind. You must select the correct mode. If you're having trouble with keys not being set, switch from VIEW mode to ITEM mode. Jump over to the NAV options and select ITEM and you're good to go.

The animation thing works fine on mine... just if I move the camera using the viewport mode, even with Autokey on, the camera doesn't stay unless I manually key it.

- - - Updated - - -


I downloaded the latest version (not sure if it did anything) and applied two things to the buttons:
Left button: fit all (Shift+A)
Right button: Left Mouse Button Menu (CMD/CTRL+SHIFT+LMB)

Works like a charm. I mostly use LWCAD for anything I do, so having LMB Menu on the SpaceNavigator makes a lot of sense to get to the tools I use the most as fast as possible.
And as we all know, if there's no selection everything is selected. Fit All works for zooming in on details you're working on - or just fit the entire model.

Maybe this is just a Windows issue then??

I'm on Win 8 and it definitely doesn't work. Just want to customise my buttons on my Space Mouse Pro please Newtek! :(

3dWannabe
08-16-2013, 11:30 AM
Has everyone submitted a bug report? I've been trying to get the 3dconnexion working better in LW for maybe two years now.

It's not just an inconvenience, having a major feature so totally messed up may completely alienate a prospective LW user, so this costs us development dollars that could be used to improve LW (from lost customers).

If the single developer at 3dCoat can do it, if 3ds Max can do it, I'm quite confident the amazing developers at Newtek can do it.

Maybe you could submit something based on the following?

If the developers don't understand how it works, how can they ever make it work in LW?

I remember getting a reply from them, a bit pissed that I implied that they don't understand how to use it.

But ... they actually don't. And are obviously not really using it.

It's also obvious the developers are trying ... but don't quite understand how the 3dconnexion works.

Could the developers please try this (which will show them EXACTLY how it should work).

The 3DConnexion trainer (installs with the drivers and allows you to move an object to test 3dConnexion) has an 'all active' tab.

In this, you can position a teapot object using all axis (just as we should be able to in Modeler and Layout).

Play with this for a bit.

It works identically to how the 3DConnexion puck is handled in 3d Coat, 3ds Max, etc.

Now, try a teapot or any other non-symmetrical object in Modeler (note, I've added a minus sign in front of all the scales in Modeler).

Pulling the puck towards you, which should pull the object towards you, doesn't really work.

To move the object towards you, you have to pull 'up' on the puck.

You can keep the 3DConnexion trainer window open and observe how LW handles it and how the trainer handles the same movements.

Modeler is actually much better implemented than Layout. I can get by in Modeler even though it doesn't match how all the other apps work.

But in Layout, it's as if you've had 10 tequila shots ... you're very drunk and lacking co-ordination.

If you change from 'View' to 'current item', things start moving backwards. You have to remove the minus sign from certain scales.

Having an optional keyboard shortcut to toggle add/remove minus sign from scale would really help.

But, please ... just play with the 3dConnexion Trainer, notice how it's supposed to work, and make this happen in LW?

It will be immediately obvious how much differently this works in the Trainer than how the LW implementation works.

It's gotten better, it's improved (thanks a lot!!!), but ... why not make it work as it should?

Anyway, I just submitted this on FogBugz:
https://fogbugz.newtek.com/default.asp?64626_eq6pqqie

Please submit your version of this, but ... if they don't understand how it should work in the first place, they can never 'fix' it, so ... I think emphasizing they they use the trainer and compare how the trainer moves to how LW moves is necessary to getting this fixed.

Markc
08-16-2013, 11:58 AM
I am itching for this to work also.
As mentioned already, it just works in 3D Coat perfectly, so why not in LightWave.......please!
(someone from Newtek please speak to Pilgway for a clue).

RK_Art
01-05-2014, 02:53 PM
I also gave my feedback about this issue to the NewTek support a while ago.
I come from C4D and use Lightwave as my second app now for a while because it supports Arnold render.
Using the SpacePilot in C4D, Modo, 3D-Coat etc. works flawless since years although Logitech has a really bad driver support that almost supports now nothing of the original features (the very first drivers worked best).
But using the SpacePilot in LW is horrible as the whole navigation in LW is really shi... compared to other major apps..
Whithout Lightkeys, I would have given up LW since months. Thanks to a post in this thread (the tip with the - at the scale settings), I have now a basic working SpacePilot also in LW that is (mostly) usable.
I cannot understand why the LW devs are not able (since years !!) to manage even these very basic device features. A simple checkbox in the dialogue to reverse all off the axis would have done it.
And zooming in and out with the up/down function while being in Object focus mode isn't very logical either.

LW has improved a lot since I first saw it in Version 9.6, but the whole navigation as well as the separation between modeler and Layout is long outdated and is very strange when you come from other software (except ZBrush off course, compared to their extremely excentric GUI, LW is lightyears ahead ;) )

inkpen3d
01-06-2014, 07:27 AM
You think you've got problems...

I recently purchased the new wireless version of the 3Dconnexion SpaceMouse only to discover that LW refuses to recognise it as a navigation device! It works fine with every other 3D application that I've tried it on - and, as noted previously by lardbros, all these applications are recognised by the 3Dconnexion drivers.

According to the LWDG this is because 3Dconnexion changed the HW Id and drivers. I raised a Fogbugz report (https://fogbugz.newtek.com/default.asp?67251_p3tv46dbd2groc9r) and was told that they would have a patch ready for the next LW point-release (i.e. 11.6.1). That release came and went without the promised patch.

Given all the problems detailed in this thread (which I wish I'd come across before deciding to purchase, but somehow missed, despite Google searching the NT forums) plus those that I've encountered, I'm beginning to think that I've wasted my money buying the SpaceMouse and have ended up with a rather expensive high-tech paperweight!

BTW, before I purchased the SpaceMouse, I double-checked all the information on both the 3Dconnexion and Newtek web sites to confirm that it would work with LW and, according to both companies, the device was compatible. This almost looks like a case of false advertising by both 3Dconnexion and Newtek! :(

Regards,
Peter

Areyos Alektor
01-12-2014, 04:14 PM
You tried with older drivers ?

sculptactive
01-12-2014, 10:12 PM
New drivers or old it makes no difference, in LW the SpacePilot is terrible.
In Modo 3DC the SpacePilot works great.

sami
01-13-2014, 04:04 AM
In 3DCoat the SpacePilot Pro also works great. It is unusable in Lightwave.

There must be like 4 users who have LW and one of these or something since there has been no word on this for ages; NewTek must consider it such a tiny market and have too much else to do to allocate any resources to this bug, and as much as I wish they would fix it (and from this viewpoint it doesn't seem like a big job) as it is such a valuable input device in other apps, much to my dismay, I suspect it won't be addressed as it is such a small market of an already small market and we've heard nothing about it as far as I know...

Markc
01-13-2014, 01:02 PM
Maybe it needs a 'Poll thread' so we can see exactly how many users it affects :bangwall:
There are users in another thread who suggest it works fine, but I don't know if the controls are identical to other apps (i.e. left is left), or they using it as a virtual device only?